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Dworkin_of_Amber
08-15-2007, 02:21 PM
Edit 8/22/07: Added Section 4 - "Other Paladin Builds"
Edit 8/22/07: Added Section 5 - "Level 20 Build Speculation"
Edit 8/22/07: Section 1: Corrected Drow Skill Point/Level
Edit 8/22/07: Section 6: Added Drow SR information to Pro's section
Edit: 8/24/07: Section 2: Added "The Vindicator" DPS 7P/7F Build, courtesy of Grenfell
Edit: 9/17/07 - Section 6: Added "Level Break Points" Section

After seeing person after person post Paladin builds requesting feedback, and most of them making similar mistakes, over and over, I figured it was time to put together a "Paladin Template Build" for people to work from.

This is not a Min/Maxed-uber-l33t build, but an attempt at a solid Paladin Build, for the races most suited to Paladins (Human, Elf/Drow, Dwarf, Warforged), and provide a simple starting-point for most builds. I will also attempt to cover some of the more popular variations, to give everyone a starting point.

Important Things to remember:
1) Paladin spell-casting is based on current WIS, not base WIS. So 8 Wis + 3 Item allows casting of Level 1 Spells

Assumptions:
1) All builds will be 32-point or Drow
2) All Build will use +6 Stat Items, +1 Tomes, and a 1750 Favor Tome.
3) No Build will be based around Raid Loot.
4) Hit Points are reported without False Life Items, but include Draconic Vitality (Agents of Argo favor rank 2)
5) Saves, To-Hit & Damage scores will include Greater Heroism, potions, and other self-buffs. They will NOT include Cleric/Bard/Wizard buffs that cannot be self-cast (ie. Recitation, Good Hope, etc)
6) Many of these builds are geared towards +5 Mithral Full Plate. If you don't have this, then target 12 Dex (+1) to max out +5 Full Plate.

+1 Tomes are easy to come by, as are +6 Stat Items. If you don't want to plan for them, then just modify your personal build.

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Post #1 gives a basic Paladin 14 Template for Human, with translation information for all 6 races.

Post #2 looks at Paladin/Fighter Builds, including "Intimitanks" and "Max-AC" type builds.

Post #3 describes the "Evasion Paladin" for multiple races

Post #4 looks at other Paladin Builds, inluding a 2-Weapon Fighting build

Post #5 gives full Level-20 build-out speculation for the builds.

Post #6 provides an answer to the "What Race Should I Choose For My Paladin" question and what the important "Break Points" are for Feats/Enhancements for Paladin Multi-Classing.

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Basic Human Paladin
Level 14 Human Paladin

Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 8 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Dex 1) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CON: 15 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
INT: 8
WIS: 11 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 18 (+4)
CHA: 15 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Cha 1) + 3 (Paladin Cha 3) + 6 (Item) = 26 (+8)
----------------


Feats
----------------
1) Weapon Focus: Slashing
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
3) Power Attack
6) Toughness
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Power Critical
----------------


Hit Points
----------------
10 - Heroic Durability
140 - Paladin 14
84 - Con Bonus
16 - Toughness
50 - Paladin Toughness 4
10 - Draconic Vitality
----------------
320 Hit Points


Spell Points
----------------
145 – Paladin 14 Base
92 – Wis Bonus
----------------
237 Spell Points – Without Enhancements or Items



Saves
----------------
9 / 4 / 4 - Paladin 14 Base
6 / 3 / 4 - Stat Mods
4 / 4 / 4 - Resistance +4 Item
8 / 8 / 8 - Divine Grace
3 / 3 / 3 - Paladin Aura (w/ RoG 2)
4 / 4 / 4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
34 / 26 / 27


To-Hit
----------------
14 - BAB
9 - Strength
5 - +5 Weapon
4 - Paladin Attack Boost 3 / Human Versatility Attack 3
4 - Greater Heroism
1 - Weapon Focus
1 - Haste
1 - Rage Potion
3 - Divine Favor
----------------
+42 to hit
----------------
-5 - Power Attack
----------------
+37 to hit w/ Power Attack


Damage
----------------
9 - Strength
5 - +5 Weapon
3 - Divine Favor
1 - Rage Potion
----------------
+18 Damage
----------------
5 - Power Attack
----------------
+23 Damage w/ Power Attack


AC
----------------
10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Full Plate
3 - Dexterity
7 - +5 Mithral Heavy Shield
3 - Spectacular Optics
2 - Chaosguarde
1 - Paladin Aura
2 - Bulwark of Good
2 - Ring of Balance (Invaders)
----------------
43 AC Standing
----------------
2 - Defensive Fighting
1 - Haste Potion/Spell
1 - Shield of Faith +3
4 - Human Versatility AC Boost
----------------
51 AC Buffed


Enhancements
----------------
Bulwark of Good 2
Resistance of Good 2
Paladin Toughness 4
Human Versatility 3 / Paladin Attack Boost 3
Paladin Charisma 3
Human Adaptability 1 – Dexterity
Human Adaptability 2 – Charisma
Extra Lay On Hands 2
----------------


Items
----------------
Goggles: Spectacular Optics
Helm: +6 WIS
Necklace: +6 CON / BAM Necklace (100% Fortification)
Trinket: Mummified Bat / Pearl of Power / Wizardry Trinket
Cloak: +6 CHA
Belt: +6 CON
Gloves: +6 STR
Boots: +6 DEX
Bracers: Chaosguarde
Ring: Ring of Shadows
Ring: +4 Resistance
----------------

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Convert Human to Dwarf:

Starting Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 9 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CON: 17 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Dwarven Con 2) + 6 (Item) = 26 (+8)
INT: 8
WIS: 10 + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
----------------

Feat/Enhancement Changes
----------------
-Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
Paladin Charisma 3 à Paladin Charisma 2
Human Adaptability 1 & 2 à Dwarven Constitution 2
+Dwarven Toughness 1
+Dwarven Axe Attack 2
+Dwarven Axe Damage 2
----------------

Net difference
----------------
-1 Skill Point/Level (Total of 1/level vs. 2/level)
-2 Reflex Save
-3 Will Save
+33 Hit Points
+2 to Hit (Wielding Axe)
+2 Damage (Wielding Axe)
+ Dwarven Racial Abilities
----------------


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Convert Human to Warforged


Starting Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 8 + 6 (Item) = 14 (+2)
CON: 17 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Dwarven Con 2) + 6 (Item) = 26 (+8)
INT: 8
WIS: 9 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
----------------

Feat/Enhancement Changes
----------------
-Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
-Power Critical Feat
+Adamantine Body
Paladin Charisma 3 à Paladin Charisma 2
Human Adaptability 1 & 2 à Warforged Constitution 2
+Warforged Healers Friend
+Follower of Lord of Blades
+Bladesworn Transformation
----------------

Net Difference
----------------
-1 Skill Point/Level (Total of 1/level vs. 2/level)
-3 to Reflex Save
-2 to Will Save
+28 Hit Points
+1 To Hit (Greatswords)
-2 AC (Adamantine Body)
+Bladesworn Transformation - +4 STR, +4 Damage, +4 AC
+DR 2/Adamantine
+Warforged Immunities
----------------



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Convert Human to Drow

Starting Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 10 + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 10
WIS: 10 + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 15 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
----------------

Feat/Enhancement Changes
----------------
-Weapon Proficiency Kopesh
Paladin Charisma 3 à Paladin Charisma 2
-Human Adaptability 1 & 2
+Drow Melee Attack 2
+Drow Melee Damage 2
+Follower of Vulkoor
Weapon Focus: Slashing à Weapon Focus: Piercing
Improved Critical: Slashing à Improved Critical: Piercing
----------------

Net difference
----------------
-1 to Fort
-14 Hit Points
+3 to Hit (Wielding Shortsword)
+2 Damage (Wielding Shortsword)
+Drow Racial Abilities
+Drow SR
----------------


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Convert Human to Elf

Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 10 + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 8
WIS: 11 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 18 (+4)
CHA: 15 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
----------------

Feat/Enhancement Changes
----------------
-Weapon Proficiency Kopesh
Paladin Charisma 3 à Paladin Charisma 2
-Human Adaptability 1 & 2
+Elven Melee Attack 2
+Elven Melee Damage 2
+Follower of the Silver Host
----------------

Net difference
----------------
-1 Skill Point/Level (Total of 1/level vs. 2/level)
-1 to Fort
-14 Hit Points
+3 to Hit (Wielding Longsword)
+2 Damage (Wielding Longsword)
+ Elf Racial Abilities
----------------

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-15-2007, 02:21 PM
The idea on these builds are for Paladin/Fighter Hybrid type buils.

The first part focuses on Max AC-type or Intimidate-Tank-type of Build.
The second part focuses on DPS-focused builds

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Part 1: AC & IntimiTank Builds

These are Paladin/Fighter mixes, with Combat Expertise and Power Attack for both DPS and Intimidate/Tanking roles. These are built for Humans and Dwarves only... while they could be adapted, I am not going to work out the details here.

Intimidate is not required on these, if you don't want. Simply put the skill points elsewhere.

Interestingly, the builds all come out very close in AC and To-Hit/Damage... if with 11P/3F, 12F/2P, and 7P/7F splits, they are all very similar in scores. I think the 7/7 Split is the most interesting, in that it allows the Level 2 Paladin Aura Enhancements, as well as STR 2 / CHA 2, +2/+2 Divine Favor, Weapon Specialization, and FAM/DAM 2 & FTSM2. In theory, this build should have one of the highest attainable Armor Classes, given the access to +6 to Max Dex Bonus on Armor (That could make +5 MFP with +9 Dex Bonus!!!), as well as a balanced DPS approach.

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Basic Human Paladin/Fighter Hybrids
Level 11 Paladin / Level 3 Fighter “IntimiTank”

Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) 1 (Fighter’s STR 1) + 1 (Human Adaptability 1) + 6 (Item) = 30 (+10)
DEX: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 13 + 1 (Tome) = 14 (+2)
WIS: 8 + 6 (Item) = 14 (+2)
CHA: 12 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Cha 1) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
----------------


Level Progression
----------------
L1-L2 – Fighter
L3-L13 – Paladin
L14 - Fighter


Feats
----------------
1) Weapon Focus: Slashing
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
1B) Combat Expertise
2B) Dodge
3) Power Attack
6) Improved Trip
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Toughness
----------------


Skills
----------------
Intimidate +1/level
Jump +1/level
Balance +0.5/level
----------------


Hit Points
----------------
10 - Heroic Durability
110 - Paladin 11
30 – Fighter 3
70 - Con Bonus
16 - Toughness
50 - Paladin Toughness 4
10 - Draconic Vitality
----------------
306 Hit Points


Spell Points
----------------
140 – Paladin 11 Base
40 – Wis Bonus
----------------
180 Spell Points – Without Enhancements or Items



Saves
----------------
7 / 3 / 3 - Paladin 11 Base
3 / 1 / 1 – Fighter 3 Base
5 / 5 / 2 - Stat Mods
4 / 4 / 4 - Resistance +4 Item
6 / 6 / 6 - Divine Grace
3 / 3 / 3 - Paladin Aura (w/ RoG 2)
4 / 4 / 4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
32 / 26 / 23


To-Hit
----------------
14 - BAB
11 - Strength
5 - +5 Weapon
4 - Paladin Attack Boost 3 / Human Versatility Attack 3
4 - Greater Heroism
1 - Weapon Focus
1 - Haste
1 - Rage Potion
3 - Divine Favor
----------------
+44 to hit
----------------
-5 - Power Attack / Combat Expertise
----------------
+39 to hit w/ Power Attack or Combat Expertise


Damage
----------------
11 - Strength
5 - +5 Weapon
3 - Divine Favor
1 - Rage Potion
----------------
+20 Damage
----------------
5 - Power Attack
----------------
+25 Damage w/ Power Attack


AC
----------------
10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Full Plate
5 – Dexterity
9 - +5 Mithral Tower Shield
3 - Spectacular Optics
1 – Dodge
2 - Chaosguarde
1 - Paladin Aura
2 - Bulwark of Good
2 - Ring of Balance (Invaders)
----------------
48 AC Standing
----------------
5 – Combat Expertise
1 - Haste Potion/Spell
1 - Shield of Faith +3
----------------
55 AC Self-Buffed
----------------
1 – Seal of the Earth (+1 over Invaders Ring)
3 – Chattering Ring
1 – “Of Parrying” Item
----------------
60 AC Self-Buffed w/ Raid Gear
----------------
2 – Ranger’s Barkskin (over Seal of the Earth)
1 – Halfing’s Heroes Companion
2 – Recitation
4 – Human Versatility AC Boost 3
1 – L12+ Paladin Aura
----------------
70 AC w/ Party Buffs & Raid Gear


Enhancements
----------------
Bulwark of Good 2
Resistance of Good 2
Paladin Toughness 4
Human Versatility 3 / Paladin Attack Boost 3
Paladin Charisma 3
Human Adaptability 1 – Strength
Human Adaptability 2 – Charisma
Extra Lay On Hands 2
Fighter Strength 1
Fighter Critical Accuracy 1
Fighter Item Defense 1
Fighter Armor Mastery 1
----------------


Items
----------------
Goggles: Spectacular Optics
Helm: +6 WIS
Necklace: +6 CON / BAM Necklace (100% Fortification)
Trinket: Mummified Bat / Pearl of Power / Wizardry Trinket
Cloak: +6 CHA
Belt: +6 CON
Gloves: +6 STR
Boots: +6 DEX
Bracers: Chaosguarde
Ring: Ring of Shadows
Ring: +4 Resistance
----------------

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Convert Human to Dwarf:

Same Starting Stats

Feat/Enhancement Changes
----------------
-Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
Paladin Charisma 2 à Paladin Charisma 1
Human Adaptability 1 & 2 à Dwarven Constitution 2
-Fighter STR 1
+Dwarven Toughness
+Dwarven Axe Attack 2
+Dwarven Axe Damage 2
----------------

Net difference
----------------
-1 Skill Point/Level (Total of 4/level vs. 5/level) – Split Jump & Balance POints
Saves: 32 / 25 / 23
Hit Points 306-356
To Hit: 42 (w/ Axe) (35 w/ Power Attack / Combat Expertise)
Damage: 22 (w/ Axe) (26 w/ Power Attack)


----------------


This Build can also be reversed to a 12 Fighter / 2 Paladin Build.

Starting Stats
----------------
Increase Dex to 14
Drop INT to 12
Use INT Tome before Level 2
----------------

Feat/Enhancement Changes
----------------
Take Combat Expertise @ Level 2
Take Dodge @ Level 1
+Weapon Specialization: Slashing
+Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
+Stunning Blow
+Shield Mastery
+Improved Shield Mastery
Paladin Charisma 2 à Paladin Charisma 1
+Fighter Strength 3
Human Adaptability Charisma à Strength 1
Paladin Toughness 4 à Fighter Toughness 4
-All other Paladin Enhancements
+Standard Fighter Enhancements
+Fighter Armor Mastery 3
+Fighter Tower Shield Mastery 2
----------------

Net difference
----------------
-1 Skill Point/Level (Total of 4/level vs. 5/level) – Split Jump & Balance Points
Saves: 32 / 25 / 22
Hit Points 320-370
To Hit: 41 (w/ Axe) (36 w/ Power Attack / Combat Expertise)
Damage: 24 (w/ Axe) (29 w/ Power Attack)
AC: 49 Standing, 71 Max
----------------


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Also, this can be built as a Fighter 7 / Paladin 7 Split
Recommended Race: Dwarf

Starting Stats
----------------
17 / 15 / 11 / 12 / 8 / 12
----------------

Feat/Enhancement Changes
----------------
-Shield Mastery
-Improved Shield Mastery
-Greater Weapon Focus
Fighter Strength 3 à 2
Paladin Charisma 1 à2
+Dwarven Armor Mastery 1
+Dwarven Toughness
+Paladin Resistance of Good 2
+Paladin Bulwark of Good 2
+Extra Lay on Hands ½
+Dwarven Axe Attack
+Dwarven Axe Damage

Net difference
----------------
-1 Skill Point/Level (Total of 4/level vs. 5/level) – Split Jump & Balance Points
Saves: 31 / 26 / 22
Hit Points 306-356
To Hit: 44 (w/ Axe) (39 w/ Power Attack / Combat Expertise)
Damage: 22 (w/ Axe) (27 w/ Power Attack)
AC: 50 Standing, 71 Max
----------------



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Part 2: DPS Focus


Paladin 2-Handed DPS Build “The Vindicator”


This is a 2-Handed DPS Build, originally by Grenfell, that he has asked to be added to the Build Guide.

This is a DPS-focused build, going 2-Handed Fighting, with Dwarf for the Axe Enhancements, and a 7/7 Fighter/Paladin Split for DPS Feats. Somewhat of a different focus than the other Paladin builds in this section. This build is also nice, in that it has real Fighter-class DPS, and the ability to self-heal, and as soon as the level cap is raised again, self-cast 20-points resists

PS: Gren, I played with the stats/tomes/enhancements a little bit, to make room for Item Defense


NOTE: I am also going to start putting in the feats and Level Progression all the way to 20 for these builds, as I can. I will not update the Stats, as there won’t be any change to base stats for 20 levels. Assuming most “important” stats will start Odd, factoring in +5 Levels, +5 Tomes, +2/+3 Racial Enhancements, and +3/+4 Class Enhancements… It should all be able to be worked out in the long run.


Level 14 Dwarf
7 Paladin / 7 Fighter

Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (Fighter’s Str 2) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (Item) = 30 (+10)
DEX: 12 + 6 (Item) = 18 (+4)
CON: 16 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Dwarven Con 1) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
INT: 8
WIS: 11 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 18 (+4)
CHA: 12 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Paladin Cha 1) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
----------------


Level Progression
----------------
Level 1-7 – Paladin
Level 8-14 – Fighter
Level 15-18 – Paladin
Level 19 – Fighter
Level 20 – Either Paladin or Fighter (for a 11P/9F or 12P/8F split)
----------------



Feats
----------------
1) Two-Handed Fighting
3) Power Attack
6) Improved Two-Handed Fighting
8B) Improved Critical: Slashing
9) Toughness
9B) Weapon Focus: Slashing
11B) Greater Two-Handed Fighting
12) Mental Toughness
13B) Weapon Specialization: Slashing
15) ???
15B) Power Critical
17B) Dodge (w/ +1 Tome) / Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
18) ???
19B) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing


I’ll be honest, I’m really not sure on the high-level feats for this build.
----------------


Hit Points
----------------
20 - Heroic Durability
70 - Paladin 7
70 – Fighter 7
98 - Con Bonus
16 - Toughness
50 - Dwarven Toughness 4
15 – Paladin Toughness 2
10 - Draconic Vitality
----------------
349 Hit Points


Spell Points
----------------
40 – Paladin 11 Base
80 – Wis Bonus
75 – Mental Toughness
15 – Dwarven Faith 1
20 – Paladin Energy of the Templar
----------------
230 Spell Points – Without Items



Saves
----------------
5 / 2 / 2 - Paladin 7 Base
5 / 2 / 2 - Fighter 7 Base
7 / 4 / 4 - Stat Mods
4 / 4 / 4 - Resistance +4 Item
5 / 5 / 5- Divine Grace
3 / 3 / 3 - Paladin Aura (w/ RoG 2)
4 / 4 / 4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
33 / 24 / 24


To-Hit
----------------
14 - BAB
15 – Strength (Two-Handed Weapon)
5 - +5 Weapon
4 - Greater Heroism
1 - Weapon Focus
2 – Dwarven Axe Attack
1 - Haste
1 - Rage Potion
2 - Divine Favor
----------------
+45 to hit
----------------
-10 - Power Attack
----------------
+35 to hit w/ Power Attack


Damage
----------------
15 - Strength (Two-Handed Weapon)
5 - +5 Weapon
2 – Weapon Specialization
2 – Dwarven Axe Damage
2 - Divine Favor
1 - Rage Potion
----------------
+27 Damage
----------------
10 - Power Attack
----------------
+37 Damage w/ Power Attack


AC
----------------
10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Fullplate
4 – Dexterity (FAM or DAM 1)
3 - Spectacular Optics
2 - Chaosguarde
1 - Paladin Aura
2 - Bulwark of Good
2 - Ring of Balance (Invaders)
----------------
37 AC Standing
----------------
4 – Shield of Faith
1 – Haste
----------------
42 AC Self-Buffed
----------------
3 – Ranger’s Barkskin
2 – Recitation
1 – L11+ Paladin Aura
----------------
48 AC Buffed
----------------
3 – Chattering Ring
----------------
51 AC Buffed w/ Raid Loot
----------------
5 - +5 Mithral Tower Shield
2 – Defensive Fighting
----------------
58 AC in “Turtle” Mode


Enhancements
----------------
Dwarven Axe Attack 2
Dwarven Axe Damage 2
Dwarven Constitution 1
Dwarven Faith 1
Dwarven Toughness 4
Fighter Armor Mastery 1
Fighter Critical Accuracy 1
Fighter Item Defense 1
Fighter Strength 2
Paladin Bulwark of Good 2
Paladin Resistance of Good 2
Paladin Energy of the Templar 1
Paladin Extra Lay on Hands 1
Paladin Charisma 1
Paladin Toughness 2
----------------

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-15-2007, 02:23 PM
Basic Human Evasion Paladin

The Evasion Paladin has some important changes. 2 Levels of Rogue, late in the build, to max out UMD, and put some additional skill points into Jump/Balance. Evasion requires Light or No Armor, so Mithral Breastplate or KDS is your targetted Armor. Both work out to the same AC, but KDS has +1 Max Dex Bonus, but you won't have 22 Dex to use it. The Final Level (14) it is recommended to go Fighter, as Paladin 12+ hold little of interest for this build, nor do additional Rogue Levels. The Bonus Feats will help, and the eventual Fighter's STR, other enhancements, and Bonus Feats will help with the DPS.

Evasion makes this build extremely survivable. You are mostly immune to enemy casters (not Beholders), as your Reflex Save + Evasion means you usually only take damage if you roll a 1. Evasion also lets you ignore most traps... and AoE attacks like Velah's Breath Weapon. This build also has a high UMD, allowing you to use Raise Dead Scrolls, Heal Scrolls, Wall of Fire, etc.... Level 5 Scrolls are virtually auto-success, and Level 6 Scrolls are 95%+ success... giving you a *LOT* of flexibility in the build. Later Levels (15+) would go Fighter to 19, then probably Rogue again at 20 to max out skills, plus there is no Bonus Feat @ 20 as it would be Fighter 7.

Note that this is not a real DPS build, but it does decent damage. For that reason, I also suggest the option of skipping Power Attack, and getting Least Dragonmark of Passage. This give a passive +2 Balance, plus 3x Expedition Retreats (self-cast only) with a duration in minutes equal to your Level (so 3x 14-min ER's @ L14). Also, at Level 15, you might want to get the Lesser Dragonmark upgrade, as this gives you Dimension Door!


Level 14 Human Paladin
11 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 1 Fighter

Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 12 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Rogue Dex 1) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
CON: 15 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
INT: 8
WIS: 9 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 14 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Cha 1) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
----------------


Feats
----------------
1) Weapon Focus: Slashing
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
3) Power Attack *or* Least Dragonmark of Passage (3x Expedition Retreat. Duration=Level in min)
6) Skill Focus: UMD
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Toughness
14) (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
----------------


Hit Points
----------------
10 - Heroic Durability
110 - Paladin 11
10 – Fighter 1
12 – Rogue 2
84 - Con Bonus
16 - Toughness
50 - Paladin Toughness 4
10 - Draconic Vitality
----------------
312 Hit Points


Spell Points
----------------
140 – Paladin 11 Base
60 – Wis Bonus
----------------
200 Spell Points – Without Enhancements or Items



Saves
----------------
7 / 3 / 3 - Paladin 11 Base
0 / 3 / 0 – Rogue 2 Base
2 / 0 / 0 – Fighter 1 Base
6 / 5 / 3 - Stat Mods
4 / 4 / 4 - Resistance +4 Item
7 / 7 / 7 - Divine Grace
3 / 3 / 3 - Paladin Aura (w/ RoG 2)
4 / 4 / 4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
33 / 29 / 24


To-Hit
----------------
13 - BAB
9 - Strength
5 - +5 Weapon
4 - Paladin Attack Boost 3 / Human Versatility Attack 3
4 - Greater Heroism
1 - Weapon Focus
1 - Haste
1 - Rage Potion
3 - Divine Favor
----------------
+41 to hit
----------------
-5 - Power Attack
----------------
+36 to hit w/ Power Attack


Damage
----------------
9 - Strength
5 - +5 Weapon
3 - Divine Favor
1 - Rage Potion
----------------
+18 Damage
----------------
5 - Power Attack
----------------
+23 Damage w/ Power Attack


AC
----------------
10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Breastplate
3 - Dexterity
7 - +5 Mithral Heavy Shield
3 - Spectacular Optics
2 - Chaosguarde
1 - Paladin Aura
2 - Bulwark of Good
2 - Ring of Balance (Invaders)
----------------
42 AC Standing
----------------
2 - Defensive Fighting
1 - Haste Potion/Spell
1 - Shield of Faith +3
4 - Human Versatility AC Boost
1 - +5 Mithral Tower Shield (No access to FTSM yet)
----------------
51 AC Buffed


Enhancements
----------------
Bulwark of Good 2
Resistance of Good 2
Paladin Toughness 4
Human Versatility 3 / Paladin Attack Boost 3
Paladin Charisma 2
Rogue Dexterity 1
Human Adaptability 1 – Dexterity
Human Adaptability 2 – Charisma
Extra Lay On Hands 2
----------------


UMD
----------------
17 - Ranks
7 - Charisma
3 - Skill Focus: UMD
3 - Golden Cartouche
4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
34 UMD - Raise Dead Scroll on a 2+
----------------
4 - Human Versatility 3 Boost
----------------
38 UMD - Auto-success on Raise Dead, Heal on a 2+


Items
----------------
Goggles: Spectacular Optics
Helm: +6 WIS
Necklace: +6 CON / BAM Necklace (100% Fortification) / Golden Cartouche
Trinket: Mummified Bat / Pearl of Power / Wizardry Trinket
Cloak: +6 CHA
Belt: +6 CON
Gloves: +6 STR
Boots: +6 DEX
Bracers: Chaosguarde
Ring: Ring of Shadows
Ring: +4 Resistance
----------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Convert Human to Dwarf:
----------------
Starting Stats: 17 / 13 / 15 / 10 / 9 / 12
Remove Kopesh
Change Human Enhancement Stats à Constitution
Add Dwarven Axe Attack/Damage (Axe Spec)

Net difference
----------------
+14 Hit Points
-2 to all saves
-4 CHA
+2 to Hit (Wielding Axe)
+2 Damage (Wielding Axe)
+ Dwarven Racial Abilities
----------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Convert Human to Warforged
----------------

Starting Stats: 17 / 13 / 15 / 10 / 9 / 10
Remove Kopesh
Take Mithral Body or No Body Feat @ Level 1
Change Human Enhancement Stats à Constitution
Add Follower of Blades & Bladesword Transformation (Greatsword Spec)

Net Difference
----------------
-3 to all Saves
+14 Hit Points
-5 AC (Mithral Body) / -10 AC (No Body)
-7 AC for No Shield, as this build should go 2-Handed Fighting
+1 To hit w/ Greatsword
+Bladesword Transformation
+Warforged Immunities
----------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Convert Human to Drow
----------------

Starting Stats: 17 / 11 / 13 / 10 / 8 / 15
Remove Kopesh
Change Human Enhancement Stats à Dex
Add Follower of Vulkoorim (Shortsword Spec)

Net difference
----------------
-1 to Fort
-14 Hit Points
+3 to Hit (Wielding Shortsword)
+2 Damage (Wielding Shortsword)
+Drow Racial Abilities
+Drow SR
----------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Convert Human to Elf
----------------

Starting Stats: 17 / 11 / 13 / 10 / 8 / 15
Remove Wis Tome
Remove Kopesh
Change Human Enhancement Stats à Dexterity
Add Follower of Silver Host (Longsword Spec)

Net difference
----------------
-1 to Fort Save
-14 Hit Points
+3 to Hit (Wielding Longsword)
+2 Damage (Wielding Longsword)
+ Elf Racial Abilities
----------------

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-15-2007, 02:24 PM
Basic Human Evasion Paladin w/ Rogue Skills


This template takes the Evasion Paladin, and enables the “Rogue Skills” or Disable Device, Search, and Open Lock. While DD/OL/Search may not be the highest possible, and may not be able to handle certain traps that only pure-focused Rogues can manage (sometimes), like Cabal for One on Elite… this should be more than sufficient for all Normal & Hard content, and probably 90+ % of Elite Content, including all current Raids for the required “Rogue Skills”. This build gives up Power Attack and Power Critical, as well as -1 starting STR and a bit less CON, the overall effect is identical Strength, -4 CON (-28 hit points), and the 2 feats, for the ability to unlock any door, and Search and Disable almost any Trap in the game. Enhancements get even tighter, as picking up the 1st level Rogue Disable Device & Search are helpful, and Human Versatility (the Mod 5 version) becomes a huge asset to this build, and really wants to be maxed at HV 4, but it can get by with HV 3. I would expect these build to run with BoG 2 & RoG 2, due to the tightness of the Enhancement Points available overall. I have not taken the time to convert this build to any other race, mainly due to time constraints, but with the loss of a Skill Points/level, it makes me think that Drow may be the only other option for this build, but getting CON back up may be difficult… but my initial thoughts would be 16/10/12/17/8/14 for starting stats… taking Drow Dex 2 & Paladin Cha 3, but ending up at only 27 Str… but it is a close equivalent.

Still, it takes the incredible survivability of the Evasion Paladin, and allows him to also fill the party Rogue spot to 90-95% of all current content… Not a bad package!

Level 14 Human Paladin
11 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 1 Fighter

Stats
----------------
STR: 16 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Str 1) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 12 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Rogue Dex 1) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
CON: 12 + 6 (Item) = 18 (+4)
INT: 15 + 1 (Tome) = 16 (+3)
WIS: 8 + 6 (Item) = 14 (+2)
CHA: 14 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Cha 1) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
----------------
Please Note that the +1 INT Tome *MUST* be used BEFORE taking Level 2


Skills
----------------
Level 1 (Rogue) - Disable Device (+4), Open Lock (+4), Search (+4), Use Magic Device (+4)

Level 2 – Level 11 (Paladin) - Disable Device (+1), Open Lock (+0.5), Search (+1), Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 12 (Rogue) - Disable Device (+1), Open Lock (+4), Search (+1), Use Magic Device (+6)

Level 13 – Level 14 (Paladin/Fighter) - Disable Device (+1), Search (+1), Use Magic Device (+1)

Final Ranks @ Level 14 – Disable Device (17), Open Locks (13), Search (17), Use Magic Device (17)
----------------


Feats
----------------
1) Nimble Fingers
1) Skill Focus: Disable Device
3) Skill Focus: UMD
6) Weapon Focus: Slashing *or* Skill Focus: Search
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Toughness
14) (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
----------------


Hit Points
----------------
10 - Heroic Durability
110 - Paladin 11
10 – Fighter 1
12 – Rogue 2
56 - Con Bonus
16 - Toughness
50 - Paladin Toughness 4
10 - Draconic Vitality
----------------
284 Hit Points


Spell Points
----------------
140 – Paladin 11 Base
40 – Wis Bonus
----------------
180 Spell Points – Without Enhancements or Items



Saves
----------------
7 / 3 / 3 - Paladin 11 Base
0 / 3 / 0 – Rogue 2 Base
2 / 0 / 0 – Fighter 1 Base
4 / 5 / 2 - Stat Mods
4 / 4 / 4 - Resistance +4 Item
7 / 7 / 7 - Divine Grace
3 / 3 / 3 - Paladin Aura (w/ RoG 2)
4 / 4 / 4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
31 / 29 / 23


To-Hit
----------------
13 - BAB
9 - Strength
5 - +5 Weapon
5 - Human Versatility Attack 4
4 - Greater Heroism
1 - Weapon Focus
1 - Haste
1 - Rage Potion
3 - Divine Favor
----------------
+42 to hit


Damage
----------------
9 - Strength
5 - +5 Weapon
3 - Divine Favor
1 - Rage Potion
----------------
+18 Damage
----------------
5 – Human Versatility Damage 4
----------------
+23 Damage


AC
----------------
10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Breastplate
5 - Dexterity
7 - +5 Mithral Heavy Shield
3 - Spectacular Optics
2 - Chaosguarde
1 - Paladin Aura
2 - Bulwark of Good
2 - Ring of Balance (Invaders)
----------------
42 AC Standing / 43 AC with +5 Mithral Tower Shield
----------------
2 - Defensive Fighting
1 - Haste Potion/Spell
1 - Shield of Faith +3
4 - Human Versatility AC Boost
----------------
52 AC Buffed
----------------
1 – Level 11+ Paladin Aura
3 – Ranger’s Barkskin
2 – Recitation
----------------
58 AC with Party Buffs
----------------
3 – Chattering Ring
1 – “Of Parrying Item”
----------------
62 AC with Buffs and Raid Item


Enhancements
----------------
Bulwark of Good 2
Resistance of Good 2
Paladin Toughness 4
Human Versatility 4Paladin Charisma 2
Rogue Dexterity 1
Human Adaptability 1 – Dexterity
Human Adaptability 2 – Strength
Extra Lay On Hands 2
Rogue Disable Device 1
Rogue Search 1

----------------


UMD
----------------
17 - Ranks
7 - Charisma
3 - Skill Focus: UMD
3 - Golden Cartouche
4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
34 UMD - Raise Dead Scroll on a 2+
----------------
5 - Human Versatility 4 Boost
----------------
39 UMD - Auto-success on Raise Dead & Heal



Disable Device
----------------
17 – Ranks
3 – Intelligence
3 – Skill Focus: Disable Device
13 – Item
7 – +5 Theives Tools
5 – Human Versatility 4 Skill Boost
1 – Rogue Disable Device I
----------------
49 Disable Device / 52 Disable wearing +6 INT Item


Search
----------------
17 – Ranks
3 – Intelligence
13 – Item
5 – Human Versatility 4 Skill Boost
1 – Rogue Search 1
----------------
39 Search / 42 Search if Skill Focus: Search is selected



Open Lock
----------------
13 – Ranks
5 – Dexterity
13 – Item
7 – +5 Theives Tools
5 – Human Versatility 4 Skill Boost
----------------
43 Open Lock


Items
----------------
Goggles: Spectacular Optics / +13 Disable Device / +13 Search / +13 Open Lock
Helm: +6 WIS
Necklace: +6 CON / BAM Necklace (100% Fortification) / Golden Cartouche
Trinket: Mummified Bat / Pearl of Power / Wizardry Trinket
Cloak: +6 CHA
Belt: +6 CON
Gloves: +6 STR
Boots: +6 DEX
Bracers: Chaosguarde
Ring: Ring of Shadows
Ring: +4 Resistance / +6 INT
----------------

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-16-2007, 10:41 AM
Finally, I wanted to add some speculative build information for a full Level 20 build out.

These are speculative, and assuming no additional feats other than what exist today, but assuming availability to +5 Tomes, +6 Items, +4 Class Enhancements, and +3 Racial Enhancements (or 3 +1’s for Humans), as well as all 5 Level Increases (4, 8, 12, 16, 20). Now there is no exact information on +3 Racial and +4 Class Enhancements, but I think it is a good assumption that they will exist.


You may notice that many of the build include the Least/Lesser Dragonmark of Passage. I have taken this on my Holy Avenger (the Least Dragonmark sofar), and I love it. But part of the problem is that for many of these builds, I simply cannot find any other feats worth taking. Some of them, should +5 Tome become available before Level 18 or so, then maybe Combat Expertise & Improved Trip would be good, but without new higher-level Feats, I have had a hard time finding good fits for some of the builds.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Basic Human Paladin
Level 20 Human Paladin

Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 5 (Levels) + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Str 1) + 6 (Item) = 34 (+12)
DEX: 8 + 2 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CON: 15 + 5 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 26 (+8)
INT: 8 +5 (Tome) = 13 (+1)
WIS: 11 + 5 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
CHA: 15 + 5 (Tome) + 4 (Paladin Cha 4) + 6 (Item) = 30 (+10)
----------------


Feats
----------------
1) Weapon Focus: Slashing
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
3) Power Attack
6) Toughness
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Power Critical
15) Toughness / Least Dragonmark of Passage
18) Combat Expertise / Lesser Dragonmark of Passage
----------------


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Basic Human Paladin/Fighter Hybrids
Level 11 Paladin / Level 9 Fighter “IntimiTank”

Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 5 (Levels) + 5 ( Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt 1 Str) + 2 (Fighter’s STR 2) + 6 (Item) = 36 (+14)
DEX: 13 + 5 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7) (Fighter’s Armor Mastery 2)
CON: 13 + 5 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
INT: 13 + 1 (Tome) = 14 (+2)
WIS: 8 + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt 1 Wis) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
CHA: 12 + 5 (Tome) + 3 (Paladin Cha 3) + 6 (Item) = 26 (+8)
----------------


Level Progression
----------------
L1-L2 – Fighter
L3-L13 – Paladin
L14-L20 – Fighter


Feats
----------------
1) Weapon Focus: Slashing
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
1B) Combat Expertise
2B) Dodge
3) Power Attack
6) Improved Trip
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Toughness
15) Two-Handed Fighting / Least Dragonmark of Passage
15B) Weapon Specialization: Slashing
17B) Improved Two-Handed Fighting / Dodge
18) Greater Two-Handed Fighting / Lesser Dragonmark of Passage
19B) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
----------------


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 20 Human Evasion Paladin
11 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 7 Fighter

Stats
----------------
STR: 17 + 5 (Levels) + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt 1 Str) + 2 (Fighter STR 2) + 6 (Item) = 36 (+13)
DEX: 12 + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Rogue Dex 1) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7) (Fighter’s Armor Mastery 2)
CON: 15 + 5 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 26 (+8)
INT: 8
WIS: 9 + 5 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
CHA: 14 + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Cha 1) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
----------------



Level Progression
----------------
L1-L9 – Paladin
L10-L11 – Rogue
L12-L13 – Paladin
L14-L20 - Fighter



Feats
----------------
1) Weapon Focus: Slashing
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
3) Power Attack
6) Skill Focus: UMD
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Toughness
14B) Power Critical
15) Least Dragonmark of Passage
15B) Two-Handed Fighting / Stunning Blow
17B) Weapon Specialization: Slashing
18) Improved Two-Handed Fighting / Lesser Dragonmark of Passage
19B) Greater Two-Handed Fighting
----------------


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Level 20 Human Evasion Paladin with Rogue Skills
11 Paladin / 3 Rogue / 6 Fighter

Stats
----------------
STR: 16 + 5 (Levels) + 5 (Tome) + 2 (Fighter Str 2) + 6 (Item) = 34 (+12)
DEX: 12 + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Rogue Dex 1) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7) (Fighter’s Armor Mastery 2)
CON: 12 + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Con 1) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
INT: 15 + 5 (Tome) = 20 (+5)
WIS: 8 + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Wis 1) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
CHA: 14 + 5 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt Cha 1) + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
----------------
Please Note that the +1 INT Tome *MUST* be used BEFORE taking Level 2



Skills
----------------
Level 1 (Rogue) - Disable Device (+4), Open Lock (+4), Search (+4), Use Magic Device (+4)

Level 2 – Level 11 (Paladin) - Disable Device (+1), Open Lock (+0.5), Search (+1), Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 12 (Rogue) - Disable Device (+1), Open Lock (+4), Search (+1), Use Magic Device (+6)

Level 13 – Paladin - Disable Device (+1), Search (+1), Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 – Level 19 (Paladin - Disable Device (+1), Search (+1), Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 20 – Rogue - Disable Device (+1), Search (+1), Use Magic Device (+1), Open Lock (+5), Spot/Balance/Jump (+9)

Final Ranks @ Level 20 – Disable Device (23), Open Locks (18), Search (23), Use Magic Device (23)
----------------


Feats
----------------
1) Nimble Fingers
1) Skill Focus: Disable Device
3) Skill Focus: UMD
6) Weapon Focus: Slashing
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Toughness
14B) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
15) Skill Focus: Search
15B) Power Attack
17B) Weapon Specialization: Slashing
18) Least Dragonmark of Passage / Dodge / Luck of Heroes / Skill Focus: Open Lock/Jump/Balance/Spot
19B) Power Critical
----------------


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-16-2007, 10:44 AM
EDIT: 9/17/07 - Added "Level Break Points" Section

What Race should I choose for my Paladin?


This is an important choice for players, and one that comes up quite frequently in the DDO Paladin Forums. All 6 races in DDO (as of Mod 4.2), are quite playable as Paladins, and each have their plusses and minuses. Yes, even Warforged, with their -2 Wisdom & -2 Charisma can make excellent Paladins.

A quick rundown of the Pros for each Race:

Human: +1 Feat, +1 Skill Point/Level, +1 to 2 Stats, Human Versatility (Mod 5)
Dwarf: Axe/Armor/Tactics/Toughness Enhancements, Racial Saves, Con Bonuses
Warforged: Con Bonuses, Racial Immunities, Follow of Lord of Blades
Elf: Longsword Enhancements, Follower of Soverign Host
Drow: Shortsword Enhancements, Follower of Vulkoorim, Starting 10 CHA, Drow SR
Halfling: +1 To-Hit, +Dex Bonuses, +1 AC Size Bonus

And a quick rundown of the Cons for each Race:

Human: +1 to 2 Stats instead of +2 to 1 stat
Dwarf: Lower CHA
Warforged: Body Feat is costly, lower CHA & WIS
Elf: Lower CON
Drow: Lower CON
Halfling: Lower STR usually means Dex-based or TWF, Intimidate Penalty

But overall, all the races are quite good for Paladins.


For a quick “generalization” of the Racial differences for Paladins (and these are generalizations for the Races, not hard-rules)

--------------------
The Human Paladin
--------------------

Often uses Bonus Feat for Exotic Weapon: Kopesh, else goes with Longswords
Usually Sword-and-Board
Human Adaptability allows better balance of starting stats vs. Tomes/Items/Class Enhancements
Usually has the highest CHA of all Paladins

--------------------
The Dwarven Paladin
--------------------

Usually sticks to Dwarven Axes, but will use other axes, and occasionally 2-handeds
Often has a higher Dex, due to Racial Armor Mastery
Usually has the most hitpoints of all Paladins

--------------------
The Warforged Paladin
--------------------

Usually goes with Greatswords for the Lord of Blades Enhancements
Lowest CHA and WIS of most Paladins, but Immunities make up for it

--------------------
The Elven Paladin
--------------------

Elven Paladins are almost exclusively Longsword users, as the Racial Bonus and Soverign Host make them deal a lot of damage.
Usually tied with Drow for the lowest Hitpoints of all Paladins, but higher Dex, and occasionally 2-Weapon Fighters


--------------------
The Drow Paladin
--------------------

Elven Paladins are almost usually Shortsword users, as the Racial Bonus and Soverign Host make them deal a lot of damage.
Usually tied with Elves for the lowest Hitpoints of all Paladins, but higher Dex, and occasionally 2-Weapon Fighters
Drows also have start with 10 in CHA, INT, and DEX... making a higher Charisma cost less.
Drow SR can help augment a Paladin's Saves for survivability


--------------------
The Halfling Paladin
--------------------

Halfing Paladins tend to be Finesse Fighters, and very often 2-Weapon due to Racial Dex, and low starting STR
Usually have some of the best saves of all Paladins


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So What Race Should I Choose?

A lot depends on your playstyle, and what items you may have banked.
The Weapons will often choose the Race, as each Race has it’s preferred weapons due to Racial options or the Faith Enhancements. Dwarves, Humans, and Warforged are probably the 3 “best” choices, while Elves/Drow are a very close second. Halflings are a bit less popular, and tend to go towards 2-Weapon, which leaves very little feat room for a Paladin.

Keep in mind the Weapons that lend themselves one way or another:
Kopesh – Human
Axes – Dwarf
Greatsword – Warforged
Longsword – Elf
Shortsword – Drow


Also, remember the Racial differences:
Human: +Feat, +1 Skill, +1 Stat to 2 different Stats
Dwarf: +Con, -Cha
Warforged: +Con, -Cha, -Wis, Immunities
Elf: +Dex, -Con
Drow: +Dex, -Con, SR
Halfling: +Dex, -Str


One other way to look at Race Recommendations Build Type:
Pure Paladin: Any Race
"IntimiTank" Paladin: Human or Dwarf
Evasion Paladin: Human, Elf, Drow, Dwarf
DPS Paladin (Pure, IntimiTank, or Other): Dwarf, Warforged, Human
Two-Weapon Paladin: Halfling, Elf, Drow

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Break Points" for Paladin Builds"

Since this also seems to be a recurring question, I figured I would lay out the basic "Break Points" for Paladins, and some of the most common Multi-Class Options.

Paladin Break Points:
Pal 1 - Paladin Aura (+1 AC, +1 Saves)
Pal 2 - Divine Grace (Cha Bonus to Saves), Lay on Hands, Enhancement: CHA +1
Pal 3 - Divine Health (Disease Immunity) & Fear Immunity, Enhancement: Resistance/Bulwark of Good 1, Enhancement: +1 Lay On Hands
Pal 4 - Level 1 Spells, Turn Undead, Divine Favor +1/+1
Pal 6 - Enhancement: CHA +2, Divine Favor +2/+2
Pal 7 - Enhancement: Resistance/Bulwark of Good 2
Pal 8 - Level 2 Spells, Enhancement: +1 Lay on Hands
Pal 9 - Divine Favor +3/+3 (Cap)
Pal 10 - Enhancement: CHA +3
Pal 11 - 30-point Resist Energy, Enhancement: Resistance/Bulwark of Good 3
Pal 12 - Level 3 Spells, Enhancement: +1 LoH
Pal 14 - Level 4 Spells


Fighter Break Points (Not Including Fighter Bonus Feats @ 1/2/4/6/8/10/12/14)
Fgt 1 - Weapon/Tower Shield Proficiencies, Enhancement: Tactics Level 1
Fgt 2 - Enhancement: STR +1
Fgt 3 - Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery & Tower Shield Mastery 1
Fgt 4 - Avail Feat: Weapon Specialization, Enhancement: Tactics Level 2
Fgt 6 - Enhancement: STR +2
Fgt 7 - Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery & Tower Shield Mastery 2, Enhancement: Tactics Level 3
Fgt 8 - Avail Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Fgt 10 - Enhancement: STR +3, Enhancement: Tactics Level 4
Fgt 11 - Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery & Tower Shield Mastery 3
Fgt 12 - Avail Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization


Rogue Break Points
Rog 1 - 1d6 Sneak Attack
Rog 2 - Evasion, Enhancement: DEX +1


Sorcerer Break Points
Sor 1 - Base Sorcerer SP, Arcane Wand Usage, Enhancement: Energy of the Dragonblooded 1 (+30 SP)


Ranger Break Points
Rng 1 - Bow Strength, Favored Enemy #1, Enhancement: Favored Damage 1
Rng 2 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Enhancement: DEX +1
Rng 4 - Level 1 Spells
Rng 5 - Favored Enemy #2, Enhancement: Favored Damage 2
Rng 6 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Manyshot, Enhancement: DEX +2, Enhancement: Favored Attack 1
Rng 8 - Level 2 Spells
Rng 9 - Evasion, Enhancement: Favored Damage 3
Rng 10 - Favored Enemy #3, Enhancement: DEX +3
Rng 11 - Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Rng 12 - Level 3 Spells, Enhancement: Favored Attack 2
Rng 13 - Enhancement: Favored Damage 4


Cleric: Uncommon Splash, but it happens. Not common enough to warrant details.
Wizard: Similar to Sorcerer, but less common due to INT not being a primary Paladin Stat, and CHA shared with Sorc and Paladin
Barbarian & Bard: Not Allowed due to Alignment Restrictions


So, looking at that, the "really" important break points for Paladin are Pal 2, Pal 7, and Pal 11. Paladin 2 is used for a Paladin Splash for the Paladin base Aura and Divine Grace. Paladin 11 is the most popular mostly-Paladin build. Paladin 7 is a newer development, mostly for a Paladin/Fighter hybrid (DPS or Intimtanks), to leverage BoG/RoG 2 with the FAM/FTSM 2 Enhancements for MAX AC, or a Maximized Standing AC, with Divine Favor for DPS.

Don't discount the power of Divine Favor... while it can be dispelled, it gives the To-Hit Equivalaent of +2 STR & Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus, and the Damage Equivalent of +2 STR & Weapon Specialization!

A lot of the "break point" depends on what you want your Paladin to do, and what items/tomes/equipment you have available. 7/7 Splits tend to be very demanding on items and tomes, so I don't recommend them for less experienced players.

Taerdra
08-16-2007, 09:01 PM
Nice work so far.

I think you are underestimating the benefit of Drow CHA. Starting at 10 is a nice benefit along with the easy 15-16 score is a nice advantage. Their high saves with SR (assuming you can fit in enhancements is also good).

Otherwise, nice work.

Dimicron
08-17-2007, 10:09 AM
Halflings also get +1 AC due to their small size. They get intimidation penalties also for those aspireing intimipallies out there.

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-17-2007, 10:21 AM
Thanks for the feedback. This is a work in progress, and I still want to put more into this. Your comments on Drow and Halfling have been added.

I would appreciate other input from the community. My goal here is not, at all, to overwrite the specific designers, but to augment their work with a basic template for people to work off of, and hopefully answer many of the basic questions that appear time and time again on the Paladin Forums. These are not peaked-and-tweaked builds, but all of them should be 'solid' performers at Level 14 with decent equipment.

If there are other build templates / race options / or other ideas you think should be added to this, please let me know. I am also saving all of this offline in case of another "Forum Hiccup" :D

Roguewiz
08-17-2007, 11:03 AM
Halflings also get +1 AC due to their small size. They get intimidation penalties also for those aspireing intimipallies out there.

I don't recall any intimidation penalties for halflings, even in PnP. Can you point me to where it says that?

Blazer
08-17-2007, 11:13 AM
I don't recall any intimidation penalties for halflings, even in PnP. Can you point me to where it says that?

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm).

"You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. Conversely, you take a -4 penalty on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are smaller than your target."

Halflings are in the small size category.

Roguewiz
08-17-2007, 11:16 AM
Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm).

"You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. Conversely, you take a -4 penalty on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are smaller than your target."

Halflings are in the small size category.

Ty, never realized there was a penalty since I only used intimidate for "roleplaying" purposes in PnP.

Impaqt
08-17-2007, 11:41 AM
Does DDO use the Intimidation penalty though?

Really doesnt mater I suppose since halflings have no soul... Thus shouldnt be paladins anyway.

Blazer
08-17-2007, 11:43 AM
Does DDO use the Intimidation penalty though?

Really doesnt mater I suppose since halflings have no soul... Thus shouldnt be paladins anyway.

Pretty sure they do, but since the only halfling I have is a ranger (no intimidate), I cannot confirm this.

Treerat
08-17-2007, 12:00 PM
Does DDO use the Intimidation penalty though?

Really doesnt mater I suppose since halflings have no soul... Thus shouldnt be paladins anyway.


Size penalties are in full effect. Easy way to confirm this - go into the area outside Threnal and use intimidate on the giant at the entrance. Take note of the modifier you get, then try it again against the brigands (man-sized targets). You'll get two different numbers that come out of -4 per size category.

Dimicron
08-17-2007, 12:10 PM
Does DDO use the Intimidation penalty though?

Really doesnt mater I suppose since halflings have no soul... Thus shouldnt be paladins anyway.

Seriously? Have you seen them dance? They have far more soul than the horrid elf /dance! :D

Roguewiz
08-17-2007, 12:18 PM
Does DDO use the Intimidation penalty though?

Really doesnt mater I suppose since halflings have no soul... Thus shouldnt be paladins anyway.

Watch it now Impaqt. Have you seen Dark Sun halflings? Try telling them they have no soul as they are arguing which part of you to cook first ;)

Halfling Power!

binnsr
08-17-2007, 12:38 PM
1) Paladin spell-casting is based on current WIS, not base WIS. So 8 Wis + 3 Item allows casting of Level 1 Spells
It's just as important to remember that if you want to dump WIS to 8, that you won't be casting spells (even 1st lvl) until you can either get a +3 item at lvl7 or a +2 item and a tome. You also would need a +6 item just to cast lvl4 spells.



+1 Tomes are easy to come by, as are +6 Stat Items. If you don't want to plan for them, then just modify your personal build.


I call BS on this .. sure, tomes are more available than they used to, but they are certainly not growing on trees, and as for +6 items, I play 3-4 hours every night and have yet to pull a +6 item.
What you should put in there is to plan for level 20 - I think that's the single biggest failing that I see on all of the builds posted here. For instance, we have a dev statement that +5 tomes and +6 items will be in effect at lvl20. Armed with that knowledge, we should be factoring odd tomes and even items into our build equations.

Jondallar
08-18-2007, 11:08 AM
Awesome Thread Dworkin -it needs a sticky:D


[B]Halfling: +1 To-Hit, +Dex Bonuses, +1 AC Size Bonus

Halfling: Lower STR usually means Dex-based or TWF, Intimidate Penalty

Technically with the +1 to hit and the -2 strength penalty for halflings is actually only equivalent to having -1 to damage, but the same to hit as a man sized creature.

26 str on halfing = 28 str on any other character -1 to damage.

Halflings do not need to go the dex route, they should however take advantage of the + dex enhancements and get the high dex score for the KDS and go evasion

... 10 pal (full cha enhancement), 2 fight (Stre tier1enhancement) Rog2 (Dex tier one enhancement) - Halfing dex enhancement all = The highest minmax stats possible with decent cha, 22 dex for KDS max ac, and 26 strength (liberal use of tomes/+6 gear required to min max of course)

Borror0
08-19-2007, 08:53 AM
You forgot to mention that Dwarves have also the highest saves with to Dwarven Spell Defense! Beside that, nice work.

Vinos
08-19-2007, 09:01 AM
One correction for conversion from human to drow. They get the same skill points per level. Human with 8 int gets 2 per level(2 base-1int pen +1 human)
Drow also gets 2 per(2 base with no INT penalty)

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-20-2007, 10:00 AM
@BinnSr - I guess it's your luck of the draw (or roll)... I play 3-4 nights a week, for 3-4 hours at a time, and I've picked up 2 Tomes and 2 +6 Stat items in the past two weeks.... But as for planning for Level 20, I do have some of the build threshed out that far. Most of my build are planned for the current environment and non-raid loot (as much as possible)... but I will also toss in some information on Level 20 builds when I can. And Yes, 8 starting WIS can be a bit painful, but considering that Pallys don't get spells until L4, and usually don't get SP until at least L6 (unless they have 12+ Wis), I don't see this as a big problem. Heck, I pulled a +3 Wis Hat out of Tangleroot with my latest Paladin... ML2!!!


@Vinos - Drow start @ 10 INT, where the Human builds are 8 INT, so the skill points should work out the same... but I'll double check that.


@Borror0 - I guess I was thinking that the "Dwarven Racial Abilities" would cover that, specifically the +4 Saves vs. Spells


@Jondallar - We (at least we former Mabar-ites) all know about your obsession with Halflings!!! :D. But you are correct, 26 STR Halfing is only -1 Damage compared to a 28 STR anyone else... but the lack of a usable Racial Weapon focus (ie Axes for Dwarves, Longswords for Elves, etc), makes them a bit harder of a choice for Paladins. I know that Humans don't get a focus either, but that Bonus Feat is often used for Kopesh/Bastard Sword/etc. But thanks for the kudos... I am trying to create something for everyone to use and enjoy... and if I can ever get the time to get back to it, the Character Generator Program I am working on should dovetail very nicely with Ron's to help with all the HP/SP/Saves/To-Hit/Damage calculations... and hopefully, someday, have the Fourm Output option to simplify life for those of us who are posting build on the forums in the format that Grenfell has made us all know and love!


@Taerdra - Personally, I am not really convinced on the need for SR for a well-built Paladin. True, I have not run a Drow Paladin at high levels, but I have 2 high-level Human Paladins, (granted that most of my experience is with Evasion Paladins), but I had the luck to pull a SR21 Belt, and wore it for a while on my Holy Avenger, and I really didn't notice any real difference in getting hit with spells with it on vs. off. The other thing is that most Paladins are so heavy on Enhancements, that there is no room for the Drow SR line of Enhancements. The only Drow that I ever had the room for the SR Enhancements on was a Heavy Repeater Fighter Drow... That build was desperate for usable enhancements, so the Drow SR was great (plus pure Fighters have poor Will Saves anyways)... but then again, each person is different. So some may value the SR more highly... and maybe it will make a difference for a non-Evasion Paladin?

Vinos
08-20-2007, 10:05 AM
@Vinos - Drow start @ 10 INT, where the Human builds are 8 INT, so the skill points should work out the same... but I'll double check that.




That's what I'm telling you lol. Your guide has it as 1 per level for drow.

Jondallar
08-20-2007, 10:32 PM
the lack of a usable Racial Weapon focus (ie Axes for Dwarves, Longswords for Elves, etc), makes them a bit harder of a choice for Paladins. I know that Humans don't get a focus either, but that Bonus Feat is often used for Kopesh/Bastard Sword/etc.

You are right of course Dworkin, that however is why I recommend 1 or 2 lvls of fighter for halflings so they can get the bonus feats (Khopesh or HeavyPick and something else)... Pure Pally just isnt worth it. And once you splash the fighter lvls why not splash a couple O'rogue lvs :D
JOnd

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-22-2007, 11:26 AM
Just to keep everyone informed. I have corrected Section 1 (Pure Paladin) on Drow Skill Points, and added Drow SR to the "Pro's" in Section 6 (What Race).

I have also added the first build template for Section 4 "Other Paladin Builds" with my own conversion of the Holy Avenger (Human Evasion Paladin) over to enable Rogue Skills. I have also added Section 5 with speculations on full-out Level 20 Builds.

You may notice that many of the build include the Least/Lesser Dragonmark of Passage. I have taken this on my Holy Avenger (the Least Dragonmark sofar), and I love it. But part of the problem is that for many of these builds, I simply cannot find any other feats worth taking. Some of them, should +5 Tome become available before Level 18 or so, then maybe Combat Expertise & Improved Trip would be good, but without new higher-level Feats, I have had a hard time finding good fits for some of the builds.

Edit 8/22/07: Added Section 4 - "Other Paladin Builds"
Edit 8/22/07: Added Section 5 - "Level 20 Build Speculation"
Edit 8/22/07: Section 1: Corrected Drow Skill Point/Level
Edit 8/22/07: Section 6: Added Drow SR information to Pro's section

Taerdra
08-23-2007, 09:01 AM
Don't know if you're interested, but I have a 2H fighting build that is working out well thus far (only lvl 5). I would be happy to forward to you if you think it will be a helpful addition to the guide. It got deleted in the purge...

It's not perfect, but I think it or some form thereof is one of the few ways to make a true DPS paladin after all the changes from various mods.

binnsr
08-23-2007, 09:08 AM
Don't know if you're interested, but I have a 2H fighting build that is working out well thus far (only lvl 5). I would be happy to forward to you if you think it will be a helpful addition to the guide. It got deleted in the purge...

It's not perfect, but I think it or some form thereof is one of the few ways to make a true DPS paladin after all the changes from various mods.
Were I to build a paladin again, I think I would stick with a sword-n-board approach and then, at lvl12 or so, swap out a bunch of feats for the THF feats once you're out in the gianthold and AC starts becoming less important.. in fact, i'm actually contemplating doing that on my current capped pally since it seems he's got the Sword of Shadow out more often than any other weapon anymore.

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-23-2007, 10:03 AM
Don't know if you're interested, but I have a 2H fighting build that is working out well thus far (only lvl 5). I would be happy to forward to you if you think it will be a helpful addition to the guide. It got deleted in the purge...

It's not perfect, but I think it or some form thereof is one of the few ways to make a true DPS paladin after all the changes from various mods.

Sure, please send me the build template... as long as you don't mind if I 'tweak' it a little bit before posting! :D

Grenfell
08-23-2007, 12:26 PM
This is great work, Dworkin. Kudos to you. :)

The Holy Avenger line of builds is in good hands with your stewardship, I think. :D

/gren

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-23-2007, 01:25 PM
Thanks, Gren... That actually means a lot, coming from you.:)

I must say, that my Holy Avenger is the build that I had enjoyed the most my entire time playing DDO... and even with some personal changes you might not agree with (dropping Power Attack for Least Dragonmark of Passage), I have tried to maintain the original intent of your build, and improve upon it as much as possible.

I think my next project is going to be to fully flesh out my Battle-Rogue concept (in my head, I have a sketch of a 10 Rogue/2 Ranger/2 Fighter Human with 2-Weapon Fighting, 30 STR, and full Rogue Skills)... but I am glad to help out the community.

If anyone else has any template/builds they would like added to this, please PM them, and I'll be glad to look at them and hopefully include them in this Guide. I know there are a million different Paladin-based builds out there, so I am really looking for the basic templates for a different "function" of Paladin Build (like pure paladin, IntimiTank, Evasion, etc...). One build I can specifically think of that I don't have a starting point is for a Paladin/Sorc build (I'm thinking 12 Sorc / 2 Paladin and a 6/8 or 7/7 or 10/4 split in either direction... somewhat based on Grenfell's Two-Blade Sorcerer... but trying to update a more "friendly" version of it! :D

DME543
08-23-2007, 01:31 PM
:eek: Dworkin or Grenfell,
I'm relatively new to the game and I have a level 8 Human Pally, Holy Avenger (32 pt) build. I have not added the 2 levels of Rogue yet...have I screwed up or can I add them at Level 11/12? If that will be ok what do I add at 13/14?

Thanks

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-23-2007, 02:36 PM
The fact that you haven't added your Rogue levels yet isn't a problem at all.
I actually recommend waiting until at least level 8 for your Rogue Levels... and here's why:

A lot of people will tell you to take Rogue @ Level 1 for all the bonus skill points, but the problem is that you can't put more than 4 points into any one skill... so taking Rogue 1 lets you get 4 points in a bunch of skills, and 95% of those skills will never get another skil point added to them again.


So, what really matters, is that, assuming you are maxing UMD every level, starting at Level 1, you need to take your 2 Rogue Levels, starting at any EVEN Level.

You will have more Skill Points than you need to Max Out UMD, so I put them in Jump and Balance. I aim for a base 20 Jump (11 Ranks + 9 STR Bonus) and 10 Balance (5 Ranks + 5 DEX Bonus). This helps your Balance Saves, and 20 Jump pretty much ensures that when an Arcane caster gets his 30-point Jump spell, that Jump Spell (and maybe Greater Heroism too) will get you to 40 jump (which is the Jump Cap). This means you want 11 Jump and 5 Balance and UMD Maxxed once you are done with your 2nd Rogue Level, as all further skill points (unless you get a +2 INT Tome) will go into keeping UMD Maxxed

At Level 6, your UMD is 4 (before you put any point into anything)... At L8 it's 5, L10 it's 6, and L12 it's 7. Pick any of these... it really doesn't matter.

I like to do it at either Level 8 or Level12. There are 2 rationalles for this.

1) Take Rogue at L8-9 gets you Evasion earlier, and thus more resilient.

2) Waiting until Level 12 lets you get your 30-point resists and highest-level Aura Enhancements from your Paladin Levels.

That's the long and short of it.

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-23-2007, 02:38 PM
I forgot to answer the other part of your question. (But I promised to be quick!)

Once you take your 2 Rogue Levels, continue taking Paladin until you have 11 Levels of Paladin. This gives you 30-point Resist Energy, Bulwark of Good 3, and Resistance of Good 3. Then, for Level 14, take Fighter. Fighter gives you Tower Shield Proficiency, a Bonus Feat, and a bunch of new handy Enhancements (Critical Accuracy & Fighter's Item Defense are 2 I always take).

As for the future? Fighter for levels 15-19. Level 20 is an odd choice, as there is no Fighter Bonus Feat for Level 20 (Fighter 7), but it does open some Enhancement options... So as of today, I would say plan for Fighter @ Level 20... but by the time we get there, another Rogue Level might end up as a good idea!

Grenfell
08-23-2007, 03:32 PM
To this great compendium.

This is a build I did for my guild that is really different from my normal philosophy of splashing 1-2 levels of something. It is a solid THF DPS build that could still be called a Paladin build, at least nominally.

I've rewritten it under your guidelines re: +1 tomes and +6 items.

4.0 Vindicator
Level 14 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(7 Fighter/7 Paladin)

BAB: 14

Strength 17 +3 (levels) +2 (enh) +2 favor tome +6 item = 30 (+10)
Dexterity 12 +6 item = 18 (+4)
Constitution 16 +2 enh +1 tome +5 item = 24 (+7)
Intelligence 8 = 8 (dump stat -- 1 pt/lvl, goes into Jump)
Wisdom 11 +5 item = 16 (+3)
Charisma 12 +1 enh +1 tome +6 item = 20 (+5)

HP: 140 base + 20 heroic + 16 Toughness + 65 dwarf tough IV & pal tough II + 98 con bonus +10 draconic = 349 hp, before false life; 379 with Greater False Life.

SP: 35 base + 75 mental toughness + 20 energy I + 15 Dwarf Faith I + 100 Magi item = 245 SP

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting

Level 2 (Paladin)
Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Paladin)
Level 5 (Paladin)
Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 7 (Paladin)
Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 10 (Fighter)
Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness

Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons

Level 14 (Fighter)

Enhancements:

[dwarf] - Axe Attack I (2)
[dwarf] - Axe Attack II (4)
[dwarf] - Axe Damage I (2)
[dwarf] - Axe Damage II (4)
[dwarf] - Constitution (Dwarven) I (2)
[dwarf] - Constitution (Dwarven) II (4)
[dwarf] - Faith I (1)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) I (1)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) II (2)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) III (3)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) IV (4)
[fighter] - Armor Mastery I (2)
[fighter] - Critical Accuracy I (1)
[fighter] - Strength I (2)
[fighter] - Strength II (4)
[paladin] - Bulwark of Good I (2)
[paladin] - Bulwark of Good II (4)
[paladin] - Energy of the Templar I (1)
[paladin] - Extra Lay on Hands I (2)
[paladin] - Resistance of Good I (2)
[paladin] - Resistance of Good II (4)
[paladin] - Toughness I (1)
[paladin] - Toughness II (2)

To Hit:
+14 BAB
+10 Str bonus
+2 Divine Favor
+1 Weapon Focus
+4 Greater Hero
+2 Axe Attack
+5 Weapon
-5 Power Attack
-------------------
+33/+33/+38/+43

Damage:
+15 Str in THF mode
+10 Power Attack in THF
+2 Divine Favor
+2 Weapon Specialization
+2 Axe Damage
+5 Weapon
---------------
+36 to damage. With Greataxe, 37 - 48 on normal hits. Add in Rage or Madstone Boots or whatever else you'd like for more action.

AC:
10 Base
13 Armor (+5 FP)
1 Dex bonus
1 Dwarven Armor Mastery II (w/ 18 dex)
1 Paladin Aura
2 Bulwark of Good II
4 Protection Item or Cleric Shield of Faith
2 Chaosguarde
3 Barkskin Potion
4 Shield clicky
--------------------
42 AC in THF mode. (Note: with 18 Dex, if you have +5 Mithral FP, you can get 44 AC in THF mode. It is the reason to have a 12 starting Dex in the first place.).

A +5 HSS gives you another 3 to AC for 45.

A Tower Shield (need +5 Mith TS if you go with +5 Mith FP) gives you another 2 for 47. Defensive Fighting gets you to 49 AC. With raid items (e.g., Chattering Ring) or a full Ranger, you can break 50 AC.

Saves:

Fort/Ref/Will
+5/+2/+2 Base 7 levels of Fighter
+5/+2/+2 Base 7 levels of Paladin
+3/+3/+3 Resistance 3 item (e.g., Shrunken Head)
+0/+1/+0 Spectacular Optics (+4 to Ref saves, doesn't stack)
+1/+1/+1 Paladin Aura
+2/+2/+2 Resistance of Good II
+5/+5/+5 Divine Grace w/ 20 Cha
+7/+4/+4 Attributes bonuses/negatives
+4/+4/+4 Greater Heroism
-----------------------------
+32/+24/+22 <-- AMAZING! Plus, Dwarven bonuses vs. poison, spells, etc.

When level cap goes up, go to 7F/9P and get the last +1 to Divine Favor, and your 20-pt resists.

You will either shoot for 11p/9F for the 30 pt resists and Greater Weapon Focus, although 12p/8F also works for the configuration.

/gren

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-24-2007, 10:56 AM
Edit: 8/24/07: Section 2: Added "The Vindicator" DPS 7P/7F Build, courtesy of Grenfell

Thanks for the build idea, Gren... I just modified it, and tweaked a little bi t:D

Added it into Section 2, Part 2.

Keep 'em coming!!!

vyvy3369
08-24-2007, 04:46 PM
...Let's not forget 20pt resists self-buffed...
Not sure if you were really counting on this part of it, but Paladins don't get their 2nd level spells until 8 Paladin.

Grenfell
08-25-2007, 01:01 AM
Not sure if you were really counting on this part of it, but Paladins don't get their 2nd level spells until 8 Paladin.

Doh! :) I knew it was too good to be true, heh.

/gren

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-29-2007, 09:01 AM
Oops... I guess I'll have to fix that too! :eek:

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-31-2007, 03:30 PM
Alright, I fixed the error in the "Vindicator" post, about the self-cast 20-point resists.

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-12-2007, 02:57 PM
Are there any other "basic templates" that anyone thinks should be added to this guide?

jmonty
09-12-2007, 05:48 PM
what would you get for a +2 tome when you get 1750 favor?

my pally is a dwarf, 28 point build. my base stats at 14 are: 16str 12dex 12con 8 int 14wis 15char.

i was thinking charisma or strength, but then i was thinking dex for the armor enhancements and ac..

Jondallar
09-13-2007, 12:08 AM
If you have used no tomes (+1) then I would probably go with a Str tome personally. As far as Dex paladin's dont get armor enhancements (ie mastery ect) so unless you are an evasion pally seeking to get your dex up for use with +5 mith bp or delving suit then dex would not be the most beneficial. The way AC is paper these days you might consider taking a con tome as well to get those HP higher.
So in conclusion: Strength, Constitution, Charisma, Dex, Wisdom, Intelligence are the order in which I would choose my favor tome.

Hope that helps
Jond

vyvy3369
09-13-2007, 05:36 AM
Are there any other "basic templates" that anyone thinks should be added to this guide?
I didn't see a tactics paladin up there, so here's a summary of where I went with mine:

32-point 11 Paladin/3 Fighter (Dwarf)
Starting Stats:
16 Strength
12 Dex
13 Con
13 Int
10 Wis
13 Cha

Ending Stats (ideal):
28 Strength (+1 enh, +3 levels, +2 favor Tome, +6 item)
18 Dex (+1 Tome, 5 item)
20 Con (+1 Tome, +5 item, +1 Enhancement)
14 Int (+1 Tome, hopefully at level 1 for extra skill points)
13 Wis (+1 Tome, +2 item)
18 Cha (+1 Tome, +4 Eagle's Splendor [it's a cheap buff you can self cast])

Feats:
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Combat Expertise
Stunning Blow
Toughness
Dodge

Items:
Armor - Black Dragon Armor
Shield - +5 Mithral Tower Shield
Goggles - Intricate Field Optics
Helm - Black Dragon Helm
Necklace - Heavy Fort
Trinket - Kardin's Eye / Bloodstone
Cloak - +5 Protection
Belt - +6 Con
Ring - Intimidate +13
Gloves - +6 Str
Boots - Golden Greaves
Ring - Invaders
Bracers - Chaosgardes

AC: 56 unbuffed without raid loot

AC Buffed & w/ Raid Loot (no boosts, never been a fan): 67

w/ GH & Dwarven Save bonuses (Eye/Bloodstone):
Fort: 37 / 32
Reflex: 30 / 25
Will: 27 / 22

HPs: 321

Stun DC: 30 w/ Hammer of Leaden Clouds

Intimidate: 38

Tactics: Intimidate everything and use Cleave & Great Cleave to see what you can manage to stun, and focus on that enemy. DC30 gets most things most of the time, and while you don't do as much damage as a pure Fighter tactician, you can still turn on PA when you want to go offensive mode too.

jmonty
09-13-2007, 09:06 AM
Hope that helps
Jond

thanks man! he is a dwarf pally, so i thought that they had an enhancement that could raise the max dex bonus of armor. i wasn't really considering that option but i kinda did.

for a while was set on the str tome, and wanted to respect my feats for two handed fighting, but i'm not too sure about that now. does anyone else use thf on their pure pallys?

(hope this thread is appropriate to chat about pally builds in. i'd hate to clutter up the forum ;) )

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-13-2007, 10:05 AM
Many pure Paladins I know have been switching to 2-Handed specs, due to the greater DPS potential and the "paper effect" of AC, as mentioned before. I think this is a very practical approach, and I would definately recommend it for those Paladins with at least 26 STR when equipped.

Now, there is a big debate over the Two-Handed Fighting line vs. Cleave/Great Cleave. I am on the fence about it, personally, not having enough experience with Cleave/Great Cleave to make an informed opinion on the subject. The Cleave/Great Cleave option leverages the fact that C/GC hits do allow for additional damage and effects to go off from the weapon (Elemental, Alignment, Paralyzing, Disruption, etc), but the timers on special attacks can be burdensome if you are not good at using and timing them properly (ie. 3rd/4th attacks in the chain). Whereas the 2-Handed Feats give Glancing Blows automatically (and I have seen plenty of times where I miss my primary target with the main swing, but hit them with Glancing Blows... wierd).

I would think that if you are going to go pure-Paladin 14, then unless you are trying for uber-AC (which is hard without splashing some Fighter), then 2-Handed is a very viable and recommended Option. Most pure Paladins sit in the low-40's for Standing AC (without uber raid loot), which, as we all know, is not much use in the Gianthold (or in the Mod 5 stuff from what I hear on the Risia board), it looks like Heavy Fortification, DeathWard/DeathBlock and DPS are becoming far more important than AC, unless you can get well into the 50's, which is hard for a Pure Paladin, so I say, stand on your saves and mid-30's AC and go Two-Handed DPS.

As for the Tome, I think Jondallar is right... STR #1, CON #1, CHA/DEX/WIS #3, INT #6 for prioirty. I took a STR Tome for 1750 with my Holy Avenger (Kopesh Human Evasion Paladin), and I was lucky enough to win a roll for a +2 Cha tome from the Dragon, and I have eaten +1 Tomes of everything else other than INT. I would say that now, the next prioirty is definately CON for a better Tome for me. But as for the STR Tome, I have never regretted it. I have a standing 28 STR now, and I can keep up with any other sword-and-board I have ever run into (a +5 Flaming Adamantine Kopesh of Righteousness helps alot there too!)


@jmonty - Abosultely, I would hope this would promote more general Paladin-type discussion, as it provides more information to the Paladin Community as a whole, and I look at it as opportunities to refine/revise/add to the Paladin Guide as a whole.

DME543
09-13-2007, 12:37 PM
Is there any major differences b/t the two or is it a rename? I based my Pally on Gren's HA before the thread was lost. Dokken is my only character and I get limited play time so I would like to be sure I am on track and use all of my skills/stats/feats to the max.

I dont have my stat numbers in front of me but will post them tomorrow.

Thanks

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-13-2007, 02:15 PM
They are very similar. In my signature, you will find a link to the Holy Avenger Build, which I have "adopted" care and feeding of from Grenfell (with his blessing). This has the updated version of the build (Post Mod 4).

The "Basic Human Evasion Paladin" is probably 90% the same as the Holy Avenger... but a few minor tweaks. So I would suggest looking at both posts (Post #3 in the Basic Paladin Build Guide, and the Holy Avenger Thread) to make sure you take your Avenger the right direction.

I will be honest, my HA is a bit changed from Gren's template (and even my own). I specced out Power Attack a long time ago, and took the Lesser Dragonmark of Passage. While I have been considering taking PA again, I find myself not really needing it to play the DPS Role. Recently, I have returned to playing him, and some questing in the GiantHold has proven that even without Power Attack, he can be a formidable DPS machine. I have been leading in kills (significantly so in most cases) in almost every party I have run with, with the only class consistantly beating me being a 2-Handed Dwarf Barbarian.

But I am considering finding a way to get it back in the build... I might drop Power Critical for it (espeically if I can ever loot a damn Bloodstone).

DME543
09-14-2007, 12:03 PM
Hi Dworkin,
Here are my starting stats
STR 17
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 9
CHA 16

I have not added anything to UMD yet. Is that a problem? Also I reduced the dex by one and put it into CON.

I've followed the feats list, but I have PA instead of the dragonmark. I can do a Feat exchange but I don't know yet.

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-14-2007, 12:29 PM
Hi Dworkin,
Here are my starting stats
STR 17
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 9
CHA 16

I have not added anything to UMD yet. Is that a problem? Also I reduced the dex by one and put it into CON.

I've followed the feats list, but I have PA instead of the dragonmark. I can do a Feat exchange but I don't know yet.

Your stats look fine to me. I think today I would prefer a higher CON than the DEX.

Not having put anything into UMD hurts a little, but it can be recovered. And as for PA vs. Dragonmark, that is a personal preference. Keep PA if you want a more DPS-focus. But, if you find yourself not using PA, then consider swapping it out. All builds are templates to work from, but change to suit your needs.

I assume you have put your points in Balance and Jump... but if not, that's ok too.

Ok, for your game plan:

#1 - Start hunting for Mithral Breastplate or Chainshirt or KDS or some really good Light Armor

#2 - Level Progression:
Level 10 - Rogue.
Put every skill point for Level 10 into UMD. Enjoy 1d6 Sneak Attack.
Level 11 - Rogue
Max Out UMD. If you have any skill points left over, put them in Jump or Balance.
Level 12&13 - Paladin
From here on, you put both of your skill points into UMD to keep it Maxxed.
Level 14 - Fighter
Here you get a Bonus Feat. Considerations include: Weapon Focus, Power Critical, Power Attack, Stunning Blow, Two-Handed Fighting, etc.
Again, keep UMD Maxxed.

#3 - Try to get a hold of +6 STR Item, 1750 Tome for STR, and +5/+6 for Wis, Cha, Dex, and Con. Round out with Heavy Fortification item, maybe a Pearl/Wizardry Trinket, and some good Kopeshes (or whatever weapon you use, but I hope it's Kopesh). Other items to look for include: Ring of the Ancestors (Slavers of the Shrieking Mines), Planar Gird (Xorian Cipher), Chaosguarde (Xorian Cipher), Golden Cartouche (Delera's).

As worn items will be an issue, here is a suggested guide, without any Raid Loot:

Armor: Light Armor (Mithral Breastplate/Chainshirt, KDS)
Shield: +5 Heavy Steel/Mithral Shield
Goggles: Spectacular Optics (Threnal)
Helm: WIS
Neck: Heavy Fort / CON & Golden Cartouche
Trinket: SP Trinket/Mummified Bat (Co6)/Bloodstone (Sands)
Cloak: CHA
Belt: CON/STR & Planer Gird
Gloves: STR/DEX
Boots: DEX
Bracers: Chaosguarde
Rings: Resistance, Ring of Shadows, Ring of the Ancestors (Slavers), Feather Falling, Underwater Action

DME543
09-14-2007, 01:42 PM
Thanks Dworkin:D

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-17-2007, 11:40 AM
Added a "Level Breaks" Section to Post #6.
Describing the most important Level Break points for Paladins and common Paladin MultiClass Options (Rog, Fgt, Sor, Rng)

DME543
09-17-2007, 12:07 PM
I know it's a broad range but do you prefer some over others?

What is KDS?
Why do I want light armor vs regular FP +5? What does it restrict?

Thanks again.

Your thread is awesome. I don't get a ton of time to play and am relatively new so it takes the guess work out of the build and keeps me from making stupid mistakes. :eek:

binnsr
09-17-2007, 12:12 PM
Added a "Level Breaks" Section to Post #6.
Describing the most important Level Break points for Paladins and common Paladin MultiClass Options (Rog, Fgt, Sor, Rng)
You followed the split points for ranger and fighter all the way through lvl12. Why not the same for Rogues?

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-17-2007, 12:25 PM
Ok, hitting them one at a time.

1) Enhancements:
A lot depends on your exact build, and focus, but the typical Enhancements for an Evasion Paladin (11Pal/2Rog/1Fgt) are:

Paladin
-Bulwark 2
-Resistance 2
-Extra LoH 2
-Attack Boost 3
-Charisma 1/2 (whatever is needed for even Cha score)
-Toughness 4
Human
-Stat Boosts (to Str/Dex/Cha/Wis as needed to get even numbers)
Rogue
-Dex 1
Fighter
-Item Defense 1
-Critical Accuracy 1


2) KDS - Kundarak Delving Suit (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/KundarakDelvingSuit.jpg) - +5 Chainmail (6 max dex), Mithril, +5 Silent Moves, +5 Search
Dragon Raid Loot
Arguably the best Light Armor in the Game


3) Light Armor vs. Heavy Armor.
One Word: Evasion.
Once you take Rogue 2, you are granted the Feat of Evasion. Normally, if you have to make a Reflex Save vs. Damage or Spell, if you make your save you take 1/2 damage, and full damage if you fail your save. Evasion means that if you make your Reflex Save you take No Damage. This is how Rogues can stand in the middle of traps without taking damage (but Rogues also get Improved Evasion at Rog 10 that means a failed reflex roll means 1/2 damage). This is the primary reason for the 2 Rogue Levels in an Evasion Paladin, the secondary being maxxing UMD. A Paladin has very high saves due to his base Saves + Divine Grace, so most Evasion Paladins run around with 20+ Reflex Save. Evasion makes the Evasion Paladin nearly immune to enemy spellcasters' damage spells and traps (but rolling a 1 means it hits full, so be careful).

Evasion only works in Light Armor or No Armor. This is why Pure Pallys or Pally/Fighters wear Full Plate, but Evasion Paladins wear Light Armor. The best Light Armor Choices are Mithral Breastplate, Chain Shirt, or KDS. But which one is best for you is also determined by what your Dex Bonus is. Mithral Breastplate has a Max Dex Bonus of +5, Mithral Chain Shirt is +6, as is KDS.

Basically, Evasion means survivability. It means that MOST of the time, you are immune to enemy spellcasters. Now, it does not protect from Will-save effects (Otto's, Command, Enervation, etc), nor from Ray Spells (Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, etc), but it does protect from most damage spells (Fireball, Lighting Bolt, Disintegrate, etc). Basically it makes you the one who charges the enemy casters while the other melee in your party go after the melee mobs.

It also makes you a good candidate for the "Puller" in quests where you want to Body Pull Mobs for CC reasons, or a good scout if there is no Rogue in the Party.

Now remember, this build has no "Rogue Skill" of Open/Disable/Search, but it has good AC, Great DPS, Good UMD (for Raise Dead Scrolls, Dimension Door, and other Utility Scrolls/Wands), and Excellant Survivability.

binnsr
09-17-2007, 12:32 PM
Now remember, this build has no "Rogue Skill" of Open/Disable/Search, but it has good AC, Great DPS, Good UMD (for Raise Dead Scrolls, Dimension Door, and other Utility Scrolls/Wands), and Excellant Survivability.

I've found with my evasion pally (12p/2r) that with 2 ranks in OL, that I can get 90%+ of the locks in the game with +5 tools and a set of +13 gloves. Just with those items and my 20 dex, I have a +28 modifier to my OL. Adding GH and prayer adds +5 when needed too.

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-17-2007, 02:10 PM
It is not at all out of the question to be able to Open Locks with this kind of build... but the Search and Disable will be really tough. Heck, I've been considering dropping a point or two into Disable at the next Level Cap increase with my Holy Avenger for the same reason.

binnsr
09-17-2007, 02:19 PM
It is not at all out of the question to be able to Open Locks with this kind of build... but the Search and Disable will be really tough. Heck, I've been considering dropping a point or two into Disable at the next Level Cap increase with my Holy Avenger for the same reason.
I haven't ever seriously considered trying for a useful DD on an evasion pally (I have 2 of them currently). Pally's have, as it stands, a lot of important stats - evasion pallys in particular, and in order to pull your DD high enough to make a difference at the end-game, you'd need to put some points into Int - which is typically the only dumpable stat for an evasion paladin.

With a 10 base Int (drow) and a +6 item, the best you can do with 2 points in DD is a +31 using a +13 dd item, +5 tools, greater heroism and prayer. Even with Rogue Disable Device I, that's still well below the majority of traps at end-game.

Taerdra
09-17-2007, 03:00 PM
Build I am still debating now that I pulled my +5 Mithril Full Plate... finally... still debating a couple of pieces such as the value of Wizard 1/Extend Spell vs. Fighter 3, but think this is pretty complete.

Dragonmarked Intimi-tank, a 32pt Elf Paladin-based Tank Build

S 28 (16base+3Levels+1FtrEnh+2Favor Tome+6Item)
D 20 (13base+1Tome+6Item)
C 20 (13base+1Tome+6Item)
I 14 (13base+1Tome)
W 16 (9base+1Tome+6Item)
CH 22 (13base+1Tome+2PallyEnh+6Item)

Level Progression:
Fighter 1, Pally 4, Fighter 2, Pally 5-7, Fighter 3, Pally 8-11

Lvl 16: Pally 11, Fighter 5
Lvl 18: Pally 11, Fighter 7
Lvl 20: Pally 11, Fighter 8, Wizard/Sorcerer 1

Level Feats:
(1) Toughness
(F-1) Dodge
(3) Least Dragonmark of Shadow
(6) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow
(F-2) Combat Expertise
(9) Bullheaded
(12) SF: UMD or Extend Spell

Enhancements:
Extra Dragonmark IV – 10
Ftr Armor Mastery I – 2
Pal Bulwark of Good III – 12
Pal Resistance of Good III – 12
Pal Extra LoH I – 2
Pal Charisma II – 6
Ftr Strength I – 2
Pal Toughness III – 6
Elf Melee Attack I – 2
Ftr Item Defense I – 1
Ftr Crit Accuracy I - 1

Spell Points: 206 (70Pallybase+36WIS+100Magi item)

Skills:
Intimidate Breakdown:
17 Ranks
6 CHA
13 Item
1 Rabbit Gloves
4 Greater Heroism
+41 TOTAL MOD

UMD Breakdown:
8.5 Ranks
6 CHA
3 Golden Cartouche
1 Rabbit Gloves
4 Greater Heroism
3 Skill Focus: UMD
+25.5 TOTAL MOD

Rest of skill points go into Balance and Jump.

Hit Points:286 buffless
(20Heroic+110Pally+30Fighter+70Constitution+10Drac onic+16Toughness+30ToughEnh)

360 fully loaded (286+20bard song+30GFL+14GreaterHeroism)

Saves:
Fort: 31 (6Pally+3Ftr+1Rogue+5CON+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+ 2RoG+1Aura +4GH)
Rflx: 27 (3Pally+3Rogue+5DEX+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+2RoG+ 1Aura+4GH)
Will: 23 (3Pally+1Rogue+2WIS+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+2RoG+ 1Aura+4GH)

Base Attack Bonus: 14/14/19/24
14 Base
+9 STR
+1 Elf Melee Attack Enh
+3 Divine Favor
+5 Longsword
+4 Greater Hero
+1 Haste
-5 Combat Expertise
----------------------------
+32/32/37/42

Armor Class:
10 Base
+13 Mithril FP +5
+9 Mithril TS +5
+4 DEX
+1 DODGE
+5 CE
+5 Protection Item
+2 Chaosguard
+4 Pally Aura
+3 Barkskin
-----------------------------
56 Standing +50% from Displacement 6x/day for ~ 1:40 per use

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I don't know if you want this Dworkin, but it is a slightly more defensive version of the build you posted. The real change is the dragonmark and combining its benefits with high AC, good HPs, and reasonable offense.

jmonty
09-18-2007, 09:31 AM
what would have to be done in order to use raise dead scrolls with UMD?

Taerdra
09-18-2007, 09:46 AM
what would have to be done in order to use raise dead scrolls with UMD?

Take a level or two of Rogue for max UMD. A Raise Dead scroll has a 36 DC check, so you need to get to 30+ IMO to make it worthwhile. I was focused on maxing AC and using the full plate and tower shield I pulled/traded for, so didn't go the evasion route. 11/3 or 7/7 gets you maximum AC at a lvl 14 break with enhancements.

Rogue 1 is fine, but evasion is too good to pass up if you're taking any Rogue levels at all. Pally 11/Fighter 7/Rogue 2 is a reasonable stopping point.

Also note that you could adjustment the enhancements in this build as it is not overly dependent on Elf Melee enhancements and go the Undying Court route. That with a Ring would get you 2 rezs. In my experience, you just need to get the cleric and 1 other possibly up in case of tragedy. The Elf Melee enhancements are there for later levels. I've prioritized AC over that here.

binnsr
09-18-2007, 09:53 AM
what would have to be done in order to use raise dead scrolls with UMD?
there are a couple of ways to go about it.
1) take 2 levels of rogue for evasion and skill points. (if only for UMD, you might consider taking the rogue levels late in the build and put all of the points into UMD).
Taking the rogue levels allows you to put points into UMD at a 1:1 ratio since it's a class skill. An evasion pally with full ranks in UMD will have 17ranks + 7 (assume 24cha) + 3 golden cartouche +4 greater heroism +1 prayer = 32 (91% success on Rez scrolls) Adding the titan gloves and the head of good fortune adds 3 more to that, for a 35 (100% success rate)
2) pure paladin with high charisma and 7 ranks in UMD is also doable. To make this one work, you really either need the raid loot and/or a much higher charisma. A 30 Cha (+10) with 7 ranks gives you a 17base +3 golden cartouche + 4 greater heroism +1 prayer = 25 base (71% success). Adding the titna gloves and the head of good fortune adds another 3 for a 28 (80%)

Obviously, taking the rogue levels makes it easier, but it's still workable with a non-evasion build.

edit: i forgot to include the possibility of taking Skill Focus: UMD, which would add +3 to either of them, bringing the evasion pally to 100% without raid loot, and the non-evasion pally to 28 or 31 (80% / 89%)

Taerdra
09-18-2007, 10:04 AM
Rogue depends on what you find an acceptable rate of failure as you describe. To be honest, 71% isn't good to me, but I will definitely try to use Raise Dead scrolls in a pinch.

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-18-2007, 12:41 PM
Build I am still debating now that I pulled my +5 Mithril Full Plate... finally... still debating a couple of pieces such as the value of Wizard 1/Extend Spell vs. Fighter 3, but think this is pretty complete.

Dragonmarked Intimi-tank, a 32pt Elf Paladin-based Tank Build

S 28 (16base+3Levels+1FtrEnh+2Favor Tome+6Item)
D 20 (13base+1Tome+6Item)
C 20 (13base+1Tome+6Item)
I 14 (13base+1Tome)
W 16 (9base+1Tome+6Item)
CH 22 (13base+1Tome+2PallyEnh+6Item)

Level Progression:
Fighter 1, Pally 4, Fighter 2, Pally 5-7, Fighter 3, Pally 8-11

Lvl 16: Pally 11, Fighter 5
Lvl 18: Pally 11, Fighter 7
Lvl 20: Pally 11, Fighter 8, Wizard/Sorcerer 1

Level Feats:
(1) Toughness
(F-1) Dodge
(3) Least Dragonmark of Shadow
(6) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow
(F-2) Combat Expertise
(9) Bullheaded
(12) SF: UMD or Extend Spell

Enhancements:
Extra Dragonmark IV – 10
Ftr Armor Mastery I – 2
Pal Bulwark of Good III – 12
Pal Resistance of Good III – 12
Pal Extra LoH I – 2
Pal Charisma II – 6
Ftr Strength I – 2
Pal Toughness III – 6
Elf Melee Attack I – 2
Ftr Item Defense I – 1
Ftr Crit Accuracy I - 1

Spell Points: 206 (70Pallybase+36WIS+100Magi item)

Skills:
Intimidate Breakdown:
17 Ranks
6 CHA
13 Item
1 Rabbit Gloves
4 Greater Heroism
+41 TOTAL MOD

UMD Breakdown:
8.5 Ranks
6 CHA
3 Golden Cartouche
1 Rabbit Gloves
4 Greater Heroism
3 Skill Focus: UMD
+25.5 TOTAL MOD

Rest of skill points go into Balance and Jump.

Hit Points:286 buffless
(20Heroic+110Pally+30Fighter+70Constitution+10Drac onic+16Toughness+30ToughEnh)

360 fully loaded (286+20bard song+30GFL+14GreaterHeroism)

Saves:
Fort: 31 (6Pally+3Ftr+1Rogue+5CON+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+ 2RoG+1Aura +4GH)
Rflx: 27 (3Pally+3Rogue+5DEX+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+2RoG+ 1Aura+4GH)
Will: 23 (3Pally+1Rogue+2WIS+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+2RoG+ 1Aura+4GH)

Base Attack Bonus: 14/14/19/24
14 Base
+9 STR
+1 Elf Melee Attack Enh
+3 Divine Favor
+5 Longsword
+4 Greater Hero
+1 Haste
-5 Combat Expertise
----------------------------
+32/32/37/42

Armor Class:
10 Base
+13 Mithril FP +5
+9 Mithril TS +5
+4 DEX
+1 DODGE
+5 CE
+5 Protection Item
+2 Chaosguard
+4 Pally Aura
+3 Barkskin
-----------------------------
56 Standing +50% from Displacement 6x/day for ~ 1:40 per use

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I don't know if you want this Dworkin, but it is a slightly more defensive version of the build you posted. The real change is the dragonmark and combining its benefits with high AC, good HPs, and reasonable offense.

1) I notice one glaring problem here.... no Improved Critical: Slashing. Is Bullheaded really necessary? You didn't include the +2 Intimidate bonus in your Intimidate count, and you are looking at 24 Will Save without it (3 Pal + 1 Fgt + 3 Wis + 4 Resist + 6 Divine Grace + 4 Greater Heroism), the extra +1 Will save is really not needed. I would say drop Bullheaded @ L9, and get IC: Slashing.

2) Enhancements. Drop BoG 3 & RoG 3 (-12 points), Net -1 AC/-1 Saves. Use 12 points to buy more Elven Melee Attack/Damage. - You need good damage to maintain Aggor, or to get it when waiting for Intimidate to recharge. Or Paladin Toughness 4 and/or Extra LoH 2

3) Level 12 - Definately SF: UMD. There is no need for Extend Spell. Yes, a longer DF is nice, but that's all you would use it for, and it really isn't necessary.

4) Consider a 7/7 Split instead. Going 7/7 allows for FAM/FTSM 2 (Net +1 AC) using BoG/RoG 2. It also allows Fighter's STR 2... so if you go 17/11/13/13/8/9, pickup Elf Dex 2, Fighter Str 2, you get to 30 STR, same Dex, and -1 Will Save and -10 or -20 SP... But it also makes you not take Dodge, which is made up for with FAM/FTSM 2... so you are -1 AC off the above build, but you then have a free feat for WF: Slashing or Improved Trip or something a little more useful for that feat. Yes, you lose the 30-point resists, but it allows for the Tier 2 Fighter's Tactics as well (Fighter's Trip 2 + Improved Trip, etc)

Just some thoughts. A Good build to start, and I think with a little tweaking, it should be great!

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-18-2007, 12:45 PM
what would have to be done in order to use raise dead scrolls with UMD?

The other posters have hit the nail on the head. Basically it's take Rogue to get 100% success, or no Rogue and best-case is 60-80% success. Personally, the benefits of 100% success AND Evasion (even with the slight loss of AC required to go Light Armor) is WELL worth it, IMHO. The "Survivability Factor" goes WAY up.

While it isn't such the big deal anymore, the ability to run Velah on Normal, run the bases, and be the one to first charge the Dragon, stand there whacking away, and usually end up without being hit by her once (on normal) has it's perks. I have OFTEN run the Dragon and ended up with ALL of my temporary hit points from Aid/GH/Etc... While not That big of a deal, it is something I like. The ability to run through most traps without being touched, and charge enemy Spellcaster (or Wiz/Sorcs in PvP) without worry is a great thing!

Taerdra
09-18-2007, 01:13 PM
Dworkin:
Thanks for comments and feel free to tweak away.

1) Totally missed Imp Crit. I would never skip that on any melee build. I'm glad you noticed it.

2) Trying to max AC, but agree that after you crest 50 1 AC isn't going to crush you.

3) Extend Spell would be for the Dragonmark, not DF really. DM will be about ~ 1:40 -- with Extend, it should increase to ~ 2:30 if I'm not mistaken. Gives you a lot more time with it on and definitely gets you from shrine to shrine whereas without Extend, you need to be more careful. I still would go with UMD, but thought I would explain a bit...

4) I did think a lot about 7/7 as it gets you the same AC bonuses as 11/3 with BoG3. Drawbacks: (a) no resists at all as you lose both 20- and 30-pt resists because you can't cast spell until lvl 8 Pally; (b) Lost an item slot for cloaks/rings of Resist; (c) AP costs for 11/3 is actually cheaper because you need TS1 to maintain the right DEX bonus, ie. BoG3+AM1 = 12 APs, BoG2+AM2+TS1 = 14 APs; (d) less party benefit. Bonuses: (a) 2 Feats for better offense (WF to me isn't that great, tho WSpec is) or more DR with Shield; (b) 30 STR vs. 28; (c) allows for better Intimidate as Imp Crit and others are bonus feats. All-in-all, 11/3 is still better to me.

At bottom, I think you're going to 11P/7F or 7P/11F (finish 9P/11F) in the end, so we're really talking about what is the most optimal at lvl 14. Either is going to be quite good. Displacement is huge on my current Pally whose AC hits 42-43, I honestly can't wait to see what it is like with this type of AC.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-01-2007, 10:38 AM
This isn't a "Paladin" Build, per se... but it does have a Paladin Splash, and as I posted it over on the Rogue Boards, many here might not see it, so I present the "30-Strength Two-Weapon Fighting Battle Rogue"...


Highlights of the Build:
30 Strength, w/ Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical, & Improved Evasion!
55 Disable, 51 Open Lock, 47 Search, 34 Spot, 34 UMD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 30-Strength Two-Weapon Fighting Battle Rogue Build

Level 14 Human
10 Rogue / 2 Paladin / 2 Fighter

Stats:
----------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 1 (Human Str 1) + 1 (Fighter STR 1) + 6 (Item) = 30 (+10)
DEX: 16 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Rogue Dex 2) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 11 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 18 (+4)
WIS: 9 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 8 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Paladin CHA 1) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
----------------


Level Progression:
----------------
L1 - Rogue
L2-L3 - Paladin
L4-L6 - Rogue
L7 - Fighter
L8-L13 - Rogue
L14 - Fighter
----------------


Skill Points:
----------------
Level 1 - Balance 3, DD 4, Hide 4, Jump 4, MS 4, OL 4, Search 4, Spot 4, Tumble 1, UMD 4
Paladin/Fighter Levels: DD 1, Search 1
Rogue Levels: DD, Search, UMD, Spot, OL, Hide, Move Silently, Jump, Balance

Use Rogue Skill points to keep all skills maxxed, and catch up skills that are behind in prioirty order as listed (DD, Search, UMD, Spot, Open Lock, Hide/Move Silent, Balance/Jump)
----------------


Final Skill Ranks:
----------------
Balance: 6
Disable Device: 17
Hide: 16
Jump: 13
Move Silently: 16
Open Lock: 16
Search: 17
Spot: 16
Tumble: 1
Use Magic Device: 16
----------------


Feats:
----------------
1) Two Weapon Fighting
1) Skill Focus: Disable Device
2C) Aura of Good
3) Skill Focus: Search
3C) Divine Grace
3C) Lay on Hands
4C) Evasion
6) Skill Focus: UMD
6C) Uncanny Dodge
7B) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9) Weapon Focus Slashing / Least Dragonmark of Passage / Power Critical / Toughness
11C) Improved Uncanny Dodge
12) Improved Critical: Slashing
13C) Improved Evasion
14B) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
----------------


Hit Points:
----------------
20 - Heroic Durability
60 - Rogue 10
20 - Paladin 2
20 - Fighter 2
70 - Con
10 - Draconic Vitality
----------------
200 Hit Points without False Life


Saves:
----------------
3 / 7 / 3 - Rogue 10 Base
3 / 0 / 0 - Paladin 2 Base
3 / 0 / 0 - Fighter 2 Base
5 / 7 / 3 - Stat Mods
1 / 1 / 1 - Paladin Aura
3 / 3 / 3 - Divine Grace
4 / 4 / 4 - Resistance +4 Item
4 / 4 / 4 - Greater Heroism
----------------
26 / 26 / 18 - Saves w/ +4 Resistance & Greater Heroism


To-Hit:
----------------
11 - BAB
10 - Str
5 - Weapon
4 - Greater Heroism
-2 - Two-Weapon Fighting
----------------
+28 To Hit (+28/+28/+28/+33/+33/+38/+38)
----------------
1 - Haste
1 - Rage Potion
2 - Recitation
----------------
+33 To Hit Buffed (+33/+33/+33/+38/+38/+43/+43)


Damage:
----------------
10 - Str
5 - Weapon
----------------
+15 Damage
----------------
1 - Rage Potion
2 - Recitation
----------------
+18 Damage Buffed


AC in Two-Weapon Mode
----------------
10 - Base
10 - KDS
6 - Dex
5 - Protection +5 Item
2 - Ring of Balance
2 - Chaosguarde
----------------
34 AC (33 AC in +5 Mithral Breastplate or +5 Mithral Chain Shirt, or +7 Armor Item & Robes)
----------------
3 - Ranger's Barkskin
1 - Haste
2 - Recitation
5 - Human Versatility 4 AC Boost
4 - Paladin Aura
6 - Improved Uncanny Dodge
----------------
55 Buffed AC
----------------
7 - +5 Heavy Shield
----------------
62 AC Buffed w/ Shield
----------------
3 - Chattering Ring
----------------
65 AC with Raid Loot

*However, it is probably best to ignore AC and wear the best Fearsome Robe/Item and go with Robes for Greater Elemental Resistances)*


Disable Device:
----------------
17 - Ranks
3 - SF: DD
2 - Rogue DD 2
2 - WotM
4 - INT
13 - DD Item
7 - +5 Thieves Tools
5 - Rogue Skill Boost 4
----------------
53 Disable


Search:
----------------
17 - Ranks
3 - SF: Search
3 - Rogue Search 3
2 - WotM
4 - INT
13 - Search Item
5 - Rogue Skill Boost 4
----------------
47 Search


Open Lock:
----------------
16 - Ranks
2 - Rogue Open Lock 2
2 - WotM
7 - DEX
13 - OL Item
7 - +5 Thieves Tools
5 - Rogue Skill Boost 4
----------------
51 Open Lock


Spot:
----------------
16 - Ranks
3 - WIS
2 - WotM
13 - Item
----------------
34 Spot


UMD:
----------------
16 - Ranks
3 - SF: UMD
3 - CHA
3 - Golden Cartouche
----------------
25 UMD - Can Wear/Wield any RR Item
----------------
4 - Greater Heroism
5 - Rogue Skill Boost 4
----------------
34 UMD - Raise Dead on a 2 or better


Enhancements:
----------------
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Fire Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Search III
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
----------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Future Planning:
----------------
There is one flaw here, in that the long-term planning for this build would really want to pickup Improved Feint, but that requires 13 INT, which this build cannot do without a +2 INT Tome. You could drop starting CON and up INT a bit (I wouldn't recommend messing with WIS or CHA, as they are needed for the Will Save)... but it is up to you. With the starting CON this build hits 200 HP before False Life, and that is just starting to hit the HP level I would be comfortable with to start Meleeing.


Now, assuming you can get a +2 INT Tome, or modify your starting stats accordingly, then I would recommend the following to finish out the build:
Level 9 - Combat Expertise
Level 15-16 - Fighter: Take Improved Feint @ L15, Weapon Specialization/Improved Trip @ L16B
Level 17-20 - Rogue: Toughness @ L18, Crippling Strike @ L19C, Allows full Max of Rogue Skills


Alternately, you can go the non-Improved Feint Route:
Level 9 - Weapon Focus
Level 15-16 - Fighter: Take Toughness @ L15, Weapon Spec @ L16B
Level 17-20 - Rogue: Nimble Fingers @ 18, Crippling Strike @ L19C, Allows full Max of Rogue Skills


Or, for a little more varied build:
Level 9 - Least Dragonmark of Passage
Level 15 - Paladin: Lesser Dragonmark of Passage @ 15, Divine Health @ 15C, RoG/BoG 1
Level 16-17 - Fighter: Take Weapon Focus @ L17B, FAM 1
Level 18-20 - Rogue: Toughness @ 18, Crippling Strike @ L20C, Allows Search/DD/Spot/UMD Maxxed

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-08-2007, 10:42 AM
Since there seems to be a constantly recurring theme of discussing DPS and comparisons to Fighters and other classes, I figured it was time to try to take a definitive look at Paladin DPS vs. the other classes.

Assumptions: 32-point builds, 1750 Favor Tomes, +6 Stat Items, Min/Max-style builds based on the predominate “build templates” found on the forums. We are also going to ignore the Action Boosts, as both Fighters and Paladin get them equally, and they are 20-second buffs. Additionally, I am going to skip things like Greater Heroism, and Recitation, and the like, as they are party-buffs, not self-buffs (ignoring UMD as well), and they hit both classes equally. I want to look at “What can a Paladin do on his own and what can the fighter do on his own” scenario. I am also looking at Sword-And-Board builds here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Template Builds”

Paladin: L14 Pure Human Paladin w/ Kopesh [STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)]
Human Fighter: L14 Pure Human Fighter w/ Kopesh: [STR: 18 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 1 (Human STR 1) + 2 (Fighter’s STR 2) + 6 (Item) = 32 (+11)
Dwarven Fighter: L14 Pure Dwarven Fighter w/ Dwarven Axe: [STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 2 (Fighter’s STR 2) + 6 (Item) = 30 (+10)

NOTE: The “Dwarven Fighter” can also be a Elf with Longswords or Drow with Rapiers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To-Hit:

Paladin:
----------------
14 – BAB
9 – STR
5 - +5 Weapon
1 – Weapon Focus
----------------
+29 To Hit (Standing)
----------------
3 – Divine Favor
-5 – Power Attack
----------------
+27 To Hit

Human Fighter:
----------------
14 – BAB
11 – STR
5 - +5 Weapon
1 – Weapon Focus
1 – Greater Weapon Focus
----------------
+32 To Hit
----------------
-5 – Power Attack
----------------
+27 To Hit

Dwarven Fighter:
----------------
14 – BAB
10 – STR
5 - +5 Weapon
1 – Weapon Focus
1 – Greater Weapon Focus
2 – Dwarven Axe Attack
----------------
+33 To Hit (Standing)
----------------
-5 – Power Attack
----------------
+28 To Hit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damage

Paladin:
----------------
9 – Str
5 – Weapon
----------------
+14 Damage
----------------
3 – Divine Favor
5 – Power Attack
----------------
+22 Damage

Human Fighter:
----------------
11 – Str
5 – Weapon
2 – Weapon Specialization
2 – Greater Weapon Specialization
----------------
+20 Damage
----------------
5 – Power Attack
----------------
+25 Damage

Dwarven Fighter:
----------------
10 – Str
5 – Weapon
2 – Weapon Specialization
2 – Greater Weapon Specialization
2 – Dwarven Axe Damage 2
----------------
+21 Damage
----------------
5 – Power Attack
----------------
+26 Damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so the tally:

Paladin: +27 To Hit / +22 Damage
Human Fighter: +27 To Hit / +25 Damage
Dwarven Fighter: +28 To Hit / +26 Damage

Now some will argue that the Paladin score should be -3/-3 due to Divine Favor being a buff, but as it is an important part of the Paladin’s arsenal (and yes, I know the whole argument about vs. Beholders and other mobs that dispel buffs), but most Paladins have enough SP for DF to be running for most all melee encounters.

So, what’s the verdict… +1 To Hit and +3/+4 to Damage difference on a Paladin vs. a Fighter. That is really a tie in To-Hit, and a small difference in Damage, so you really cannot say that a Paladin is inferior in DPS vs. a 14 Fighter. Additionally, if you look at a Elf/Drow/Dwarf Paladin, you add +2/+2, and the Racial Paladin is now +1 To Hit and -1/-2 damage vs the Fighter and the Racial Fighter… again, making it a dead heat. (and actually, the Elf and Drow Paladin can be +2 To Hit due to the Faith Tenants (Follower of Vulkoorim/Silver Flame/etc)

Now, if you look at 2HF Paladin vs. 2HF Fighter, you will end up with basically the same numbers, and the same with TWF, so the reality is that as of Level 14, the DPS potential from a Paladin and a Fighter are basically equal.

Now, when it comes to Burst DPS with clickies and short-term buffs, the Fighter can pull ahead with a DF clickie, while all other buffs hit both of them equally… so best case, fully buffed and fluffed, the Fighter is +4 To hit and +8 to Damage over the Paladin, for 20-30 seconds. That is pretty minimal to me.

Girevik
10-08-2007, 12:25 PM
Additionally, I am going to skip things like Greater Heroism, and Recitation, and the like, as they are party-buffs, not self-buffs (ignoring UMD as well), and they hit both classes equally.

But do they really hit both classes equally?

Do Luck bonuses stack? If not, doesn't it matter that both Divine Favor and Recitation are Luck bonuses?

If they don't stack a Paladin running a +3/+3 Divine Favor will receive no To Hit bonus from Recitation, while a Fighter will gain a +2 bonus To Hit.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-08-2007, 03:14 PM
I'll have to double-check on that, as I am pretty darn sure that DF and Recitation Stack... hrmmm

ErgonomicCat
10-08-2007, 05:22 PM
Build I am still debating now that I pulled my +5 Mithril Full Plate... finally... still debating a couple of pieces such as the value of Wizard 1/Extend Spell vs. Fighter 3, but think this is pretty complete.

Dragonmarked Intimi-tank, a 32pt Elf Paladin-based Tank Build

S 28 (16base+3Levels+1FtrEnh+2Favor Tome+6Item)
D 20 (13base+1Tome+6Item)
C 20 (13base+1Tome+6Item)
I 14 (13base+1Tome)
W 16 (9base+1Tome+6Item)
CH 22 (13base+1Tome+2PallyEnh+6Item)

Level Progression:
Fighter 1, Pally 4, Fighter 2, Pally 5-7, Fighter 3, Pally 8-11

Lvl 16: Pally 11, Fighter 5
Lvl 18: Pally 11, Fighter 7
Lvl 20: Pally 11, Fighter 8, Wizard/Sorcerer 1

Level Feats:
(1) Toughness
(F-1) Dodge
(3) Least Dragonmark of Shadow
(6) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow
(F-2) Combat Expertise
(9) Bullheaded
(12) SF: UMD or Extend Spell

Enhancements:
Extra Dragonmark IV – 10
Ftr Armor Mastery I – 2
Pal Bulwark of Good III – 12
Pal Resistance of Good III – 12
Pal Extra LoH I – 2
Pal Charisma II – 6
Ftr Strength I – 2
Pal Toughness III – 6
Elf Melee Attack I – 2
Ftr Item Defense I – 1
Ftr Crit Accuracy I - 1

Spell Points: 206 (70Pallybase+36WIS+100Magi item)

Skills:
Intimidate Breakdown:
17 Ranks
6 CHA
13 Item
1 Rabbit Gloves
4 Greater Heroism
+41 TOTAL MOD

UMD Breakdown:
8.5 Ranks
6 CHA
3 Golden Cartouche
1 Rabbit Gloves
4 Greater Heroism
3 Skill Focus: UMD
+25.5 TOTAL MOD

Rest of skill points go into Balance and Jump.

Hit Points:286 buffless
(20Heroic+110Pally+30Fighter+70Constitution+10Drac onic+16Toughness+30ToughEnh)

360 fully loaded (286+20bard song+30GFL+14GreaterHeroism)

Saves:
Fort: 31 (6Pally+3Ftr+1Rogue+5CON+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+ 2RoG+1Aura +4GH)
Rflx: 27 (3Pally+3Rogue+5DEX+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+2RoG+ 1Aura+4GH)
Will: 23 (3Pally+1Rogue+2WIS+4ResistItem+5DivineGrace+2RoG+ 1Aura+4GH)

Base Attack Bonus: 14/14/19/24
14 Base
+9 STR
+1 Elf Melee Attack Enh
+3 Divine Favor
+5 Longsword
+4 Greater Hero
+1 Haste
-5 Combat Expertise
----------------------------
+32/32/37/42

Armor Class:
10 Base
+13 Mithril FP +5
+9 Mithril TS +5
+4 DEX
+1 DODGE
+5 CE
+5 Protection Item
+2 Chaosguard
+4 Pally Aura
+3 Barkskin
-----------------------------
56 Standing +50% from Displacement 6x/day for ~ 1:40 per use

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I don't know if you want this Dworkin, but it is a slightly more defensive version of the build you posted. The real change is the dragonmark and combining its benefits with high AC, good HPs, and reasonable offense.

I didn't see this when it first came out, so I have some questions:

Is the Dodge really useful? I'd much prefer something else to Dodge, for that +1 AC. Even a second Toughness....

Why not take Follower of the Sovereign host for an additional +1 to hit? It's 2 points, but that's not much for a +1 to hit. 32 is high, but not obscene high, so you could use another +1, I think. And then if you really want to, you can get yourself a 1/shrine Heal for 4 more points. 6 points for Heal isn't bad, especially if you need to save yourself....

Are you going to do enough DPS with the longsword to keep the aggro? Most intimitanks I've seen were focused on the Khopesh and crits to keep focus. Will the longsword be enough?

Blazer
10-08-2007, 05:36 PM
I'll have to double-check on that, as I am pretty darn sure that DF and Recitation Stack... hrmmm

DF and Recitation are both Luck Bonuses so they do not stack, at least as far as the +3 to attack from DF and +2 to attack from Recit. Obviously, the benefits to AC and saves from Recit would still work.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-09-2007, 08:55 AM
I didn't see this when it first came out, so I have some questions:

Is the Dodge really useful? I'd much prefer something else to Dodge, for that +1 AC. Even a second Toughness....

Why not take Follower of the Sovereign host for an additional +1 to hit? It's 2 points, but that's not much for a +1 to hit. 32 is high, but not obscene high, so you could use another +1, I think. And then if you really want to, you can get yourself a 1/shrine Heal for 4 more points. 6 points for Heal isn't bad, especially if you need to save yourself....

Are you going to do enough DPS with the longsword to keep the aggro? Most intimitanks I've seen were focused on the Khopesh and crits to keep focus. Will the longsword be enough?

I thought this build was an interesting alternative to some of mine, but I also think that a hybrid of this for the Dragonmarks and the 7/7 Fighter/Paladin build I have in the Guide could make a very good all-around DPS machine, with good Dragonmark Abilites to back it up, and would also thoroughly abuse the +5 MFP...

As for Dodge as a Feat, I personally have a really hard time recommending Dodge in any build that is not either 1) taking mobility/spring attack or whirlwind or 2) 100% AC focused. Outside of those 2 conditions, I can't see using a precious feat for just +1 AC. Unless the game changes fundimentally and AC becomes *MUCH* more important, I can't see +1 AC as a worthwhile Feat choice. +1 To Hit, or a Dragonmark, or Stunning Blow/Power Attack/etc seem to be much better choices given the game today.

Taerdra
10-09-2007, 11:35 AM
I didn't see this when it first came out, so I have some questions:

Is the Dodge really useful? I'd much prefer something else to Dodge, for that +1 AC. Even a second Toughness....

Why not take Follower of the Sovereign host for an additional +1 to hit? It's 2 points, but that's not much for a +1 to hit. 32 is high, but not obscene high, so you could use another +1, I think. And then if you really want to, you can get yourself a 1/shrine Heal for 4 more points. 6 points for Heal isn't bad, especially if you need to save yourself....

Are you going to do enough DPS with the longsword to keep the aggro? Most intimitanks I've seen were focused on the Khopesh and crits to keep focus. Will the longsword be enough?

I find Dodge important on AC builds, but it's not totally essential like CE. The key points about this build from a tank perspective: 1) 50+ ACs; 2) Displacement when you need it; 3) 30 pt resists; and 4) strong amount of HPs. You can cover some of this with items, but that's the same issue as planning for MFP. Greater cloaks are certainly easier to find, but buying 5 of them isn't cheap and you can only use one at a time. You would have to do this on a 7/7 build as you can't cast Resist yet. Not much of issue with regular group either.

+32 is very respectable especially given that CE is included to get to that number. Without CE, it is +37. I think your point falls into the same category as Dodge vis-a-vis AC. Longswords with enhancements are very good weapons and only behind Khopesh somewhat in direct comparisons I've read. You could choose to go that route. I personally don't feel it is worthwhile for how I would play the character, but swapping Dodge for Exotic or Stunning Blow is a very viable choice. At 360 HP with 50+ AC and the rest of the defenses in this build, another Toughness is useless IMO.

I agree with Dworkin tho -- if you want to be much more offensive minded, a 7/7 with access to appropriate Greater Resist equipment is a very viable alternative. I'm still a bigger supporter of 11/3 for the reasons I highlighted before, but I'm specifically looking to build a true Intimi-tank with acceptable offense. I have enough offensive-oriented characters and have a regular group, so intimi-tank was my focus.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-09-2007, 11:50 AM
... I agree with Dworkin tho -- if you want to be much more offensive minded, a 7/7 with access to appropriate Greater Resist equipment is a very viable alternative. I'm still a bigger supporter of 11/3 for the reasons I highlighted before, but I'm specifically looking to build a true Intimi-tank with acceptable offense. I have enough offensive-oriented characters and have a regular group, so intimi-tank was my focus.


One reason I am becoming more partial to the 7/7 build is the fact that Greater Resistance Items are more and more common, and quite Inexpensive on the AH. I picked up a Greater Fire Cloak and Greater Lightning Cloak off the AH for around 20,000 Gold each the other day! This is in the realm of ANYONE can afford, and it cannot be dispelled or run out on a timer. I bought the Fire specifically for Dragon Raids, as I am tired of getting my Fire Resistance dispelled, and I will get a full set, but Fire and Lightning are the most important, to me.

Now given that fact, the 30-point resists become less important. Yes, a 7/7 split doesn't get the +3/+3 DF or the 3rd level Aura Enhancements, but then again, I'm to the point with my Paladins that I take BoG 1 and RoG 2, and usually that is it. I think a 7/7 has a *LOT* of potential, with the right items and tomes, to be a BEASTLY DPS machine while sporting a VERY high AC... not a beginner's build though.

Just my 0.02cp on this.

PS: With the departing of Grenfell from DDO, I guess this truely leaves me as the keeper of a number of Paladin-based builds now, instead of just the Holy Avenger! Farewll Grenfell, you will be missed!

Taerdra
10-09-2007, 12:15 PM
PS: With the departing of Grenfell from DDO, I guess this truely leaves me as the keeper of a number of Paladin-based builds now, instead of just the Holy Avenger! Farewll Grenfell, you will be missed!

Sad day if true. Not sure of reasons, but think there are plenty nowadays. I'm still sticking with it, but I have my doubts regularly.

Taerdra
10-09-2007, 12:19 PM
One reason I am becoming more partial to the 7/7 build is the fact that Greater Resistance Items are more and more common, and quite Inexpensive on the AH. I picked up a Greater Fire Cloak and Greater Lightning Cloak off the AH for around 20,000 Gold each the other day!

Agree that the cloaks are important aspect to that split -- unfortunately, besides the odd bargain, I haven't been that lucky on my server. Though I would guess that a CHA helm or ring are much more difficult to find... +6 CHA cloaks seem more readily available to me anyway.

The other hidden nugget in your statement is having at least a Fire cloak as backup. Being able to insure your Fire Pro doesn't get dispelled is a huge help in lots of cases in the game.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-10-2007, 03:45 PM
FYI: I have cleaned-up, reorganized, and put a Table of Contents on this guide, and reposted it as Version 1.1 over on the Strategy Guide Section, so more can see it, plus it enters me into the User-Written Game Guide Contest thingy. I tried to get Quarion to sticky this, but they aren't really doing that in the Class Forums anymore...

But please continue to discuss, and I will update both as necessary.

jmonty
10-11-2007, 10:27 PM
has anyone tried specing out their pally with the divine light enhancements? the 3rd one is 14d6 vs undead, using turn undead, i took as many turns as i could and got 11.

is it usefull? just changed my enhancements, but haven't tried them out yet.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-12-2007, 08:41 AM
I just respecced mine the other night again, as I have been changing around my feats as well, and I took Divine Light, but I haven't tested it yet.

FYI: On the Holy Avenger (Human Evasion Paladin), this is what Benedict will look like once I am done with my feat respeccing:

1) Least Dragonmark of Passage
1 Human B) Exotic Weapon: Kopesh
3) Toughness
6) Skill Focus: UMD
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Lesser Dragonmark of Passage
14 Fighter B) Stunning Blow/Power Attack

I am loving the Level 2 Dragonmark with 1 Extra Dragonmark Use... I now have 3x DD's, and 5x Expeditious Retreats (@ 14min each).

I'm not saying this is for everyone, but to boost some of the "utility" role, having the DD's there is VERY useful.

Porkchop
10-12-2007, 03:08 PM
Hi there Dworkin, you have a great paladin guide here. I am considering making a 7/7 dwarven paly-fighter. I don't see a level progression for this build. Is this something you can throw together easily? I want to be able to achieve close to max AC when needed and throw down when the AC is not needed. Good AC, good strength, good saves, good hit points is what draws me to this build. I have played 2 DPS barbarians who maxed out strength and constitution, so I am looking for a more balanced approach with this one. I have a set of +5 mithral full plate, +6 stat items and tomes to make it work. I appreciate any advise you can give me.

Thanks

binnsr
10-12-2007, 03:39 PM
Hi there Dworkin, you have a great paladin guide here. I am considering making a 7/7 dwarven paly-fighter. I don't see a level progression for this build. Is this something you can throw together easily? I want to be able to achieve close to max AC when needed and throw down when the AC is not needed. Good AC, good strength, good saves, good hit points is what draws me to this build. I have played 2 DPS barbarians who maxed out strength and constitution, so I am looking for a more balanced approach with this one. I have a set of +5 mithral full plate, +6 stat items and tomes to make it work. I appreciate any advise you can give me.

Thanks

With a 7/7 build, I would go
Pal1-3
Ftr1-3
then alternate fighter and paladin levels to cap.
I say this simply to get your fear immunity while you are still in the harbor (where you have kobolds spamming Fear at you :D)

In the end, It really doesn't matter when you take what levels - you could even frontload all 7 pally levels and then finish out with fighter levels if you have a lot of feats with a high BAB requirement that you want.

Taerdra
10-12-2007, 05:06 PM
If you go for an Intimi-tank, Fighter level needs to be first so you can get the skill ranks you need. Honestly, I would probably start with Fighter either way as Jump is not a Paladin skill.

I would suggest Fighter 1/Paladin 3/Fighter 2-3/Paladin 4-7/Fighter 4-7. Other than that, the only other thing you need to consider is what feats you're taking and when you want them. I find that impacts how you level up a lot as well.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-12-2007, 05:07 PM
Yeah, the order isn't that important, being a 7/7 split.

But if I were building one, I would probably run up to Paladin 4 immediately, to get my Divine Grace/Health/Fear Immunity/LoH/Level 1 Spells (Divine Favor), then switch over to 2 Fighter Levels to get to Fighter's STR 1 and the 2 bonus feats, then probably alternate until Paladin 7, then finish Fighter.

The main reason is to get the Fear Immunity and the LoH & DF early, then Fighter for Feats, then balance the rest as you like. I wouldn't worry about the Tier-2 Fighter AP's until you are closer to 14 (Like FAM2/FTSM2), as the Fear Immunity and lower-level Paladin stuff is the most important for low-level running. It also lets you have Wand usage from Level 1.

But you could run it pretty much any way you want... most of the Feats can be taken at pretty much any level, so there is no real restriction there

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-16-2007, 01:48 PM
Going back, for a moment, to my 30-Strength-Two-Weapon-Fighting-Rogue Build, I think I just found the fix...



Force of Personality

* Prerequisite: Cha 13
* Benefit: Picks the highest modifier between your charisma and your wisdom
* modifier for your will saves.



Ok, so we tweak the starting stats a little...
17 / 16 / 10 / 11 / 8 / 12. +1 Tomes for Dex/Con/Int/Cha (INT before taking Level 2, Cha before taking Force of Personality)
I know the Con hit hurts a little, but make up by taking Human Con for the second Human Stat Point, so nets -14 hit points, but +1 to all saves, +2 to Will Save, +1 Free Item slot (Neck or Helm or Ring).

So saves, with a +4 Resistance Item & Greater Heroism = 26 / 27 / 20 - I think that is MUCH better... Something about 20 as the threshold on Will Saves seems good to me.


Just a thought