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View Full Version : Serious Raid Topic Quesion.



RATRACE931
08-14-2007, 10:09 PM
Yo, seriously all *****ing aside, why are they changing the raids? I understand that we are over powered but my opinion is that is we just found a way to get these items efficiently. I suppose my problem is that Turbine wants us to beat every quest and get every item one way, their way. Well thats dandy but I suppose instead of letting us stabb in the dark and say... find simple easy ways to get these thigs, and then change it up later, why not just jot down all hundred or so quests with step by step Turbine 'The way it should be' Walkthrough?

If I may use the change to the dragon as an example, I do not get why they are changing the way the mobs are. I think the 'Pullng to Home base' method was quite good. I thought it might have even been the "Proper" way to beat it because it is the best solution to beating her. The mobs arnt the issues in that raid... she the ANCIENT RED DRAGON is. Still a very difficult fight for lvl 8-10 groups ESPECIALLY one new to the game. I know that the mobs re-sawn after 25 secs perhaps the time could be increased if your going to leash them?

Sorry if I sound harsh or rude, I just kind of want a straight up answer as to why they are altering things, please.

Bombalo
08-14-2007, 10:23 PM
I dunno the bigger problem here should be the fact that turbine is going back and changing a raid that has been accomplished this way since it was released instead of actually giving us more content. The problem with this fix is not the fact that they are nerfing it. Its the shear fact that players are running out of stuff to do...lets face it most of the people still left are the gamers that play alot and have a number of higher level toons. We are running out of stuff...but instead of giving us more raids to do so we arent bored they are going back and fixing a year old raid that many of their customers only run anymore cause it is there not cause they need anything. Lets be honest most of the stuff out of the dragon isnt uber at this point anyway.

RATRACE931
08-15-2007, 01:39 AM
i really like that point man, good way to say it all.

tekn0mage
08-15-2007, 03:24 AM
It comes down to the devs vs. players competition again. The devs are seriously pushing people out of THEIR game. I thought this was OUR game?

That doesn't mean that things need to always go OUR way, but we've screamed at the top of our lungs as much as any customer should, and they STILL don't get it.

There's never going to be a day where this game takes off. It's entering its twilight. Go into another MMO, and just say the word "DDO" in general chat and see what response you get. It's literally the butt of many jokes in the MMO world.

Rather than do things to improve the gameplay overall (by adding new content which for the past 4 months has been meager at BEST) ... they go and rehash old missions to make things even tougher.

It's just unconscionable how anyone on their planning staff can justify this. The devs say they play the game, but it's obvious that they don't play how WE play.

Added: It's not the mission itself that needs fixing. It's the whole engine. The whole way the Dragon mission is handled. Knock pillars down? Mobs on a leash (yes the technology that they added that said it would only be used in SOME rare cases ((which is now in many other spots that are hardly justifiable)))? A dragon that doesn't fly?

There's nothing about that mission that was well done. Now they go and make tweaks to it that do nothing but scrape away the last amount of playability for that mission. I won't go back. I've pulled it from our guild raid schedule and it will just sit there and waste away like every other "jewel" that Turbine has given us that was really just a pile of ****.

Hvymetal
08-15-2007, 04:20 AM
1st let me say I agree that they need to spend more time with new content and less tweaking the current content. However, come on the running the bases method, although effective was in my mind a lame tactic that exploited poor AI, was boring for most invloved.

Seneca_Windforge
08-15-2007, 06:03 AM
It comes down to the devs vs. players competition again. The devs are seriously pushing people out of THEIR game. I thought this was OUR game?

That doesn't mean that things need to always go OUR way, but we've screamed at the top of our lungs as much as any customer should, and they STILL don't get it.

There's never going to be a day where this game takes off. It's entering its twilight. Go into another MMO, and just say the word "DDO" in general chat and see what response you get. It's literally the butt of many jokes in the MMO world.

Rather than do things to improve the gameplay overall (by adding new content which for the past 4 months has been meager at BEST) ... they go and rehash old missions to make things even tougher.

It's just unconscionable how anyone on their planning staff can justify this. The devs say they play the game, but it's obvious that they don't play how WE play.

Added: It's not the mission itself that needs fixing. It's the whole engine. The whole way the Dragon mission is handled. Knock pillars down? Mobs on a leash (yes the technology that they added that said it would only be used in SOME rare cases ((which is now in many other spots that are hardly justifiable)))? A dragon that doesn't fly?

There's nothing about that mission that was well done. Now they go and make tweaks to it that do nothing but scrape away the last amount of playability for that mission. I won't go back. I've pulled it from our guild raid schedule and it will just sit there and waste away like every other "jewel" that Turbine has given us that was really just a pile of ****.

Who cares what other people think about DDO? DDO requires a more mature type of player, which puts a bad taste in the mouth of idiots and fools who just can't be team players.

DDO isn't perfect -- no game is. I see several things that I view as bad design. But compared to a game like WoW, it's paradise.

Eldun
08-15-2007, 06:04 AM
Sos- Still useful
Helm- Still useful (easier to farm PoP and trade for a +6 Wis item)
Boot- Still highly desireable


Hmmm that's about it?? I'll be definately wanting to see the new fight but sure won't be putting much effort into it considering what a terrible PIA it is to do all the Von's.

I agree with the OP, I'd rather see time spent on new content or fixing seriously wrong things in the game than having AI tweaked here and there. I've been leveling a lowbie and SC is still terribly bugged, ughh.

Knightrose
08-15-2007, 06:28 AM
In my eyes End-game content means two things; income and membership.

If you can create desire or want in a player he keeps his subscription. Making it more difficult for that player to get what he wants means he remains a member longer. Thus, you generate more income. Seems the basic model for all MMO's. Why else would they make you grind?

Either way I think the current changes to the Dragon are just plain stupid. I'm even beginnging to feel mocked by Turbines cutesy little ways of describing why they changed something. "Velah threatens to eat them if they leave their bases." Give me a break home-slice. Next time just say it. You're upset players are getting end game loot so easily. Slowing them down after a server merge means you can keep them 'that' much longer as a subscriber.

I often defend Turbine but sometimes they really do act like a magazine subscription.

tekn0mage
08-15-2007, 06:32 AM
Who cares what other people think about DDO? DDO requires a more mature type of player, which puts a bad taste in the mouth of idiots and fools who just can't be team players.

DDO isn't perfect -- no game is. I see several things that I view as bad design. But compared to a game like WoW, it's paradise.

Keep talking about DDO like its a small little game for "the other folk" and that's all that will be left. No compared to a game like WoW this is not paradise. So let's stop with the comparisons, hypocrite. First you tell me not to compare, then you go and compare...

Maybe you are happy with some tiny little game that is just perfect for you and your slow style of play, but many of us are not. We don't want a game that has to consolidate servers because too few people playing it. Do you want content rolling off in even LESS helpings? Are you that oblivious to the downsides of a "small game"?

Edit --- more MATURE player? Give me a freaking break. I have never seen so many tattle-telling, rules-spewing, role-playing gamers with an intellgencia complex in all my years. This is the game people go to when the other games "move too fast" for them. That's not more mature--that's handicapped gaming. Why am I still here? It has nothing to do with you.. with people like you, or even the game at this point, but the players that I group with.

It's the illusion that you've clearly subscribed to which has perpetuated the nightmare this game has become.

blakbyrd
08-15-2007, 06:44 AM
Well, keep in mind that the DDO world is static in how it works and isnt really dynamic on a daily basis, yet is is a persistent world. Thus nothing the players ever do in the game alters anything abou the game itself (some MMOs do this, but most dont). Being a persistant world, it does continually (over time) change.

To me the reasoning for the raid changes (as well as the changes we see to other quests) are based on two main things:

1. Turbine feels that players are taking advantage of the flaws in the mob AI (some might call this an exploit, but that's a fairly liberal definition to me). With that mentality, they would find it necessary to correct the abuse of this flaw.

2. As Turbine has been unable to realse any large portion of new content very often, combined with players constantly asking for more content, a quick partial solution is to alter existing content somewhat. This makes an old quest semi-new, in the sense that players will have to play it again and figure out a new way to accomplish it. It becomes a new challenge in an old scenario. Some people look forward to such new challenges and may consider it slightly new content where little new content is added.

Granted, I would personally rather see that time spent in producing new content, rather than trying to figure out how to alter how the players play, but that is no decision of ours to make. It will however cause many people to repeat those quests to figure a new method of completion, and cause newer players to spend more time to trying to figure it out as no know method has been proven yet for them to bypass the learning curve. So, it seems to kind of come down to the enevitable insertion of temporary time sinks.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-15-2007, 07:30 AM
They are probabaly altering that quest because the tactics used were lazy and stupid exploits of the poor AI. Even more importantly, they were BORING and that isn't good for anyone. What's the fun of a quest where 10 people sat for 15 min while 1 person pulled monsters, died repeatedly, and was raised repeatedly by a second person?

As for the people complaining about all the time put into fixing this... Odds are all they are doing is putting a leash on the mobs. Since the leash code is already in the system, odds are it is very little work to attach the leash point and leash distance to them so the famous "I'd rather have new content" really doesn't apply.

At least 4 alternate and more interesting methods exist to deal with this that have been discussed in other threads so the "do it my way or I'll nerf it" argument is false.

Shadow_Flayer
08-15-2007, 07:50 AM
I dunno the bigger problem here should be the fact that turbine is going back and changing a raid that has been accomplished this way since it was released instead of actually giving us more content. The problem with this fix is not the fact that they are nerfing it. Its the shear fact that players are running out of stuff to do...lets face it most of the people still left are the gamers that play alot and have a number of higher level toons. We are running out of stuff...but instead of giving us more raids to do so we arent bored they are going back and fixing a year old raid that many of their customers only run anymore cause it is there not cause they need anything. Lets be honest most of the stuff out of the dragon isnt uber at this point anyway.

Two points. First, Turbine is about to release a bunch of new content, and have mentioned that they are working on more (and slowing down work on retrofiting outdoor areas with the new technology just in order to get more quests done). So they are working on new stuff. They have (and are) also integrating new AI and engine technologies at the same time. These are things many have been asking for.

Second, Turbine integrated new AI into the system in the spring. This allows them to do new things with monster AI. It seems pretty clear, to me anyway, that VoN 6 was not working the way they wanted it to -- they probably wanted the mobs to actually guard the pillars and not run off and leave them unprotected. With the new AI technology in place they can now change the quest to match the original intent. And most likely the amount of time it took the developers to make this change is insignificant compared to the full cycle of development of a new quest. I expect every development team has a portion of their members working on new development, and another portion working to update and maintain the existing product.

Part of developing any application is building on the existing application and then keeping the older parts of the application up to date with the new technology being used in the new development. For one, I am glad they are trying to improve existing quests while adding new content. It shows that they are paying attention to all the content, not just blowing out new stuff and leaving the old stuff to rot.

Over the long term, I'll bet that Turbine expects to be adding new customers who have not run the VoNs. They need to be working for the current customers, adding new content, and improving the existing content for those that will be seeing it for the first time.

Ziggy
08-15-2007, 09:57 AM
At least 4 alternate and more interesting methods exist to deal with this that have been discussed in other threads so the "do it my way or I'll nerf it" argument is false.
not to mention the devs said there was another way to do it way back when when the only method people used was the round the bases and die.

bobbryan2
08-15-2007, 10:02 AM
Even more importantly, they were BORING and that isn't good for anyone. What's the fun of a quest where 10 people sat for 15 min while 1 person pulled monsters, died repeatedly, and was raised repeatedly by a second person?

Then whoever pulled for you didn't do a very good job. Pulling all the mobs from each base took about 90 seconds with a single rez.

It was only boring and time consuming when someone didn't know what they were doing.

And what do you think they're going to be doing now? Yeah, maybe the new strats will involve up to 4-5 people. But they're probably going to take a whole lot longer. So you're STILL going to have people sitting for even longer amounts of time at the gate. And on top of that, the tactics everyone decide upon will probably be just as cheesy as the pulling and dying technique.

And why is all this true? Because Turbine hasn't released one single quest that requires or can even handle 12 different people. VON 5 and TF were probably the closest they've come, but I've had far easier times just running with 3-6 people on those quests even.

(And yet... they want to change the raid loot system to assume that 12 people are running them.)

*sigh*

In_Like_Flynn
08-15-2007, 10:46 AM
Dead Horse + Whip

Lorien_the_First_One
08-15-2007, 12:59 PM
Then whoever pulled for you didn't do a very good job. Pulling all the mobs from each base took about 90 seconds with a single rez.

It was only boring and time consuming when someone didn't know what they were doing.

Never seen it take 90 seconds. In fairness I've seen it take 5 minutes and I've seen it take 20 min and everything in between. I don't think I've ever run with exactly the same crew twice so I run into a wide variety of players with a wide variety of experience. That probably makes the difference.

I've only run the bases once myself. I had to die twice, probably took me about 10 minutes which I guess isn't bad for a first timer.


And what do you think they're going to be doing now? Yeah, maybe the new strats will involve up to 4-5 people. But they're probably going to take a whole lot longer. So you're STILL going to have people sitting for even longer amounts of time at the gate. And on top of that, the tactics everyone decide upon will probably be just as cheesy as the pulling and dying technique.

*sigh* you are probably right... oh well, at least in short mans everyone will be busy and half the people will be busy in larger raids :p

I wish they would just let us go kill the stupid beasties...

7-day_Trial_Monkey
08-15-2007, 01:14 PM
Edit --- more MATURE player? Give me a freaking break. I have never seen so many tattle-telling, ...

Mature people don't exploit poor AI, and they certainly don't complain when it gets fixed. And yes, they also report it to hasten the fix.

tekn0mage
08-15-2007, 01:21 PM
Mature people don't exploit poor AI, and they certainly don't complain when it gets fixed. And yes, they also report it to hasten the fix.

What an asinine statement. Ok, by your argument does that make the people in this thread (and in the game) immature?

Just a crock.

tekn0mage
08-15-2007, 01:24 PM
Mature people don't exploit poor AI, and they certainly don't complain when it gets fixed. And yes, they also report it to hasten the fix.

Oh, and referring to the tattle-tellers... it wasn't regarding exploits/bugs/AI. It was a reference to the large amount of grown men in this game who "bait" people into arguments (some of them even visited this thread) and then use the REPORT post feature after climbing back onto their high horse.

But that's a separate issue that has been addressed by the Community People (many have infraction points simply for using Report Post as a tool). In-game is even worse.

Hafeal
08-15-2007, 01:30 PM
Keep talking about DDO ... Why am I still here? It has nothing to do with you.. with people like you, or even the game at this point, but the players that I group with.

It's the illusion that you've clearly subscribed to which has perpetuated the nightmare this game has become.

And yet you are still here. And, despite you protestations, if there was not enjoyment in the game with your friends you would be gone; you can all be together in another game of your choice. Constructive criticism is so much better than name calling and finger-pointing of what others have done wrong, in your opinion. Post a thread on specific ways you you think the game could be better. And please, stop before you say "more content" and give me something better and more substantive. More content is on the way. In fact, DDO adds content faster than a vast majority of MMOs.

If content is your SOLE issue, I would suggest you take a break and come back when it has been released if you are so unhappy. ;)

Hafeal
08-15-2007, 01:37 PM
And why is all this true? Because Turbine hasn't released one single quest that requires or can even handle 12 different people. VON 5 and TF were probably the closest they've come, but I've had far easier times just running with 3-6 people on those quests even.

(And yet... they want to change the raid loot system to assume that 12 people are running them.)

*sigh*

I disagree. Run a quest at level (not 2-3 levels higher than the level quest). Run it without deliberately exploiting weak AI. Run it without twinks or other hand-me-downs. Run it without the gratuitous uber loot from "guaranteed" raid looting and tell me how easy raids are.

You claim the quests are too easy and then you have the nerve to complain because raid loot is being limited the way it was intended? Give me a break.

Raid loot was designed to be split between 12, not for people to solo or 2 and 3 man raids. Was that a mistake by Turbine? Yes. I don't criticize them for finally fixing it. People are whining now, because with changes being done, like to the dragon and with raid loot, the game will be HARDER. You will need more people to run raids. You will need to be a team player.

Running the quests will finally become more of an accomplishment.

And as raid loot becomes rarer, if the decked out power-gamers STILL solo and 2 or 3 man the raids (on hard or elite), then they should consider making them harder. Or maybe you just tip your hat to the few.

The majority of us will muddle along. ;)

Draclaud
08-15-2007, 01:53 PM
1st let me say I agree that they need to spend more time with new content and less tweaking the current content. However, come on the running the bases method, although effective was in my mind a lame tactic that exploited poor AI, was boring for most invloved.

Doesn't seem any more lame than the mobs respawning every 25 seconds. It shouldn't be harder to GET to the great red wyrm than to defeat her. Really fellas should it?

tekn0mage
08-15-2007, 02:15 PM
And yet you are still here. And, despite you protestations, if there was not enjoyment in the game with your friends you would be gone; you can all be together in another game of your choice. Constructive criticism is so much better than name calling and finger-pointing of what others have done wrong, in your opinion. Post a thread on specific ways you you think the game could be better. And please, stop before you say "more content" and give me something better and more substantive. More content is on the way. In fact, DDO adds content faster than a vast majority of MMOs.

If content is your SOLE issue, I would suggest you take a break and come back when it has been released if you are so unhappy. ;)

Here's your answer:

The simple request of MORE CONTENT can take a variety of different forms. The problem is that in those "other MMOs" there is a vibrant economy, a vibrant PvP world, and an engaging role-play aspect that pays off even if you don't enter a "mission".

Here we have DDO, where if you are not in a group, doing a mission, there is absolutely NOTHING to do. PvP is dominated by one or two drow sorcerers with maximized scorching rays. Raids on a 3 day timer. With every toon slot filled with a level 14 character (5 of them capped, 3 of them at the 1750+ mark) I've done enough of the same quests over and over.

Yeah maybe you're right, maybe there is a good time to take a break from every game. It's just that so many others feel this way, it's hard to rule it out to a single person's exhaustion.

Here's an idea... hire some staffers to work concurrently on these ideas instead of sequentially. Everything in this game gets done one piece at a time, which has led to a mass exodus (numbers are down 75% from launch, that's significant). There's no wondering about it with decisions being made like these changes to the Raid and Raid Loot.

They've gone from "worse" to "worser" every time trust is given.

Hafeal
08-15-2007, 02:32 PM
I sense your frustration. You are a maxxed out player. I sincerely believe you are the exception to the rule. That does not in any way lessen or de-value your criticisms.

I think everyone would love new content more often. Generally, DDO has been releasing new stuff every 45 days, on average, since start-up. When they issue new content it has to be across a variety of levels (not just high-end stuff).

If you have been paying for any long amount of time, and you play, say 20 hours a week even, you are going to exhaust new content in a matter of days once it comes out. No MMO can compete with how quickly players run through content.

As for loss of players, sure, most MMOs with the exception of WoW, lost players after release. The key is sustaining the game and getting it to a point where it can expand again. I am hopeful DDO's strategy will do this. It may not. It's their company though and they have their money at stake as well as all the risk. We are only along for the ride. :o


Here's your answer:

The simple request of MORE CONTENT can take a variety of different forms. The problem is that in those "other MMOs" there is a vibrant economy, a vibrant PvP world, and an engaging role-play aspect that pays off even if you don't enter a "mission".

Here we have DDO, where if you are not in a group, doing a mission, there is absolutely NOTHING to do. PvP is dominated by one or two drow sorcerers with maximized scorching rays. Raids on a 3 day timer. With every toon slot filled with a level 14 character (5 of them capped, 3 of them at the 1750+ mark) I've done enough of the same quests over and over.

Yeah maybe you're right, maybe there is a good time to take a break from every game. It's just that so many others feel this way, it's hard to rule it out to a single person's exhaustion.

Here's an idea... hire some staffers to work concurrently on these ideas instead of sequentially. Everything in this game gets done one piece at a time, which has led to a mass exodus (numbers are down 75% from launch, that's significant). There's no wondering about it with decisions being made like these changes to the Raid and Raid Loot.

They've gone from "worse" to "worser" every time trust is given.

RATRACE931
08-15-2007, 02:33 PM
Mature people don't exploit poor AI, and they certainly don't complain when it gets fixed. And yes, they also report it to hasten the fix.

... What? Its not really an exploit if EVERYONE and their freaken mothers can do it, bub. And yeah the reports work just GREAT 'cause i love the fact that scorpions dont bug anymore, or that minotaurs are practically immune to web, solid fog and acid fog because of their 'charge', or that mobs can continue to move when they are held/flesh to stone, not to mention continue to ATTACK a this point, or the fact that many mobs can trip you with a 'missed' swing, so glad that mobs cant walk up walls in some quest. So glad those things were fixed when they were reported over a year ago... oh wait lol my bad i was having a fantesy they ARN'T fixed. Instead they fixed things that HELP us isntead. Just saying maybe their priorities arn't quite what i thought they would be. Or is Turbine Lawful Evil? That'd exlain alot.

Hvymetal
08-15-2007, 03:40 PM
Doesn't seem any more lame than the mobs respawning every 25 seconds. It shouldn't be harder to GET to the great red wyrm than to defeat her. Really fellas should it?

Ohhh don't get me wrong I 100% agree with that statement, the respawns are lame, the end fight itself should be harder but, meh.

bobbryan2
08-15-2007, 04:24 PM
You claim the quests are too easy and then you have the nerve to complain because raid loot is being limited the way it was intended? Give me a break.

Actually, I never said the raids were too easy. But... way to go on the whole, Making up what I said, and then arguing what you wish my points were.

:rolleyes:

bobbryan2
08-15-2007, 04:25 PM
I disagree. Run a quest at level (not 2-3 levels higher than the level quest). Run it without deliberately exploiting weak AI. Run it without twinks or other hand-me-downs. Run it without the gratuitous uber loot from "guaranteed" raid looting and tell me how easy raids are.

You claim the quests are too easy and then you have the nerve to complain because raid loot is being limited the way it was intended? Give me a break.

Raid loot was designed to be split between 12, not for people to solo or 2 and 3 man raids. Was that a mistake by Turbine? Yes. I don't criticize them for finally fixing it. People are whining now, because with changes being done, like to the dragon and with raid loot, the game will be HARDER. You will need more people to run raids. You will need to be a team player.

Running the quests will finally become more of an accomplishment.

And as raid loot becomes rarer, if the decked out power-gamers STILL solo and 2 or 3 man the raids (on hard or elite), then they should consider making them harder. Or maybe you just tip your hat to the few.

The majority of us will muddle along. ;)


Actually... you're making some faulty assumptions, and then just going to TOWN on them.

I can run a quest at level without twinked gear and do just fine. Amazingly, I'm just that good at this game.

But you're completely ignoring some facts... and maybe that's because you don't have a lot of raid experience.

How many 'jobs' are there in VON 6? 3 Islands... 3 jobs. What are the other 9 people doing?

How many 'jobs' are there in the Titan? Depends on how you break it down, but around 3-4. Add in the benefit of an extra cleric or so... and you have about 5 people doing something. 7 People are just standing around being a liability.

How many 'jobs' are there in the Stormreaver? About 3-4... If you're a certain class, you can still help out... but if you're a fighter or rogue, you're just standing around waiting for the orbs to be lit, and then watch as one person does the puzzle.

None of the raids are designed for 12 people. That doesn't make them easy or hard. That just means they're designed for less than 12 people. Usually reaver raids with 12 people are harder than reaver raids with 6.

MtnLion
08-15-2007, 04:41 PM
They are probabaly altering that quest because the tactics used were lazy and stupid exploits of the poor AI. Even more importantly, they were BORING and that isn't good for anyone. What's the fun of a quest where 10 people sat for 15 min while 1 person pulled monsters, died repeatedly, and was raised repeatedly by a second person?
...

I cannot agree that this is the reasoning behind the changes, since it is still a BIG "no-no" to have two people together on the bridges or islands; before the pillars are down. It will remain BORING for the rest of the party whilst one or two or maybe three people run around the bridges knocking down pillars.

tekn0mage
08-15-2007, 04:42 PM
I cannot agree that this is the reasoning behind the changes, since it is still a BIG "no-no" to have two people together on the bridges or islands; before the pillars are down. It will remain BORING for the rest of the party whilst one or two or maybe three people run around the bridges knocking down pillars.

I believe that's CHECK and Mate. suckas.

They whine... "its boooring for everyone to sit around and wait" well umm... under the new system it will still be boring since you still can't have more than one person out there in any one segment.

Hafeal
08-16-2007, 12:54 PM
The inference from any statement that raids do not need a full complement of people infers is it is too easy. I don't believe that this is going to "town" on any assumptions; here was your specific statement:


And why is all this true? Because Turbine hasn't released one single quest that requires or can even handle 12 different people. VON 5 and TF were probably the closest they've come, but I've had far easier times just running with 3-6 people on those quests even.

And as you acknowledge, you have an easier time running with fewer people. Why? Starting with the changes to the dragon, needing more people does make a quest harder because group dynamics and teamwork get more difficult as the group gets larger. More chance for a screw-up if people don't do as they are told and go rambo.

I would also state that you infer that because 12 people do not have something constantly to do, you do not need 12. The idea of the changes, like that being done to the dragon raid, is so that you will need larger groups and need to make use of all them to accomplish your goal. That does not mean every person at every moment of every raid will be busy.



I can run a quest at level without twinked gear and do just fine. Amazingly, I'm just that good at this game.

And, as a I said to tekno earlier in this thread, taking you at your word, you are, in my opinion among a minority of players. The players of the game fall along a bell curve in competence. If you are that good, great, revel in it, I tip my hat to you.

But as you do not want me to impute my raid experience as compared to you, don't do so to me. It works both ways.

bobbryan2
08-16-2007, 05:02 PM
So... your point is....

The game is getting harder because

A) Raids can be run with more people
B) People are bad players
C) More people means more people can screw up a raid

leading to harder content?

The content still isnt hard... the difficulty is only overcoming player ignorance. That has nothing to do with game development.

You touched on the number of people in raids, and brought up the dragon changes multiple times.

There are two basic strategies that get used now. One uses 2 people, the other uses 4. But... you seem to think the new changes will suddenly include more people. Most of the strategies I've seen suggested will take around 3-4 people.

That's it... no more people needed. These changes don't encourage more people to join, except in the case of two rangers.

---------------------------------------

And here is what I was inferring off your statements. I have sufficient experience with raids. Raids make up the majority of the high level content that I spend my time with every week. And your comments don't ring true with any of my experiences.

My guild has plenty of 'naked' raid runs.. and +1 weapon raids, and the like. Just to keep things interesting. And yes... it makes things "harder." But it doesn't make them hard. Uber loot makes a difference, but it's not the end-all, be-all of being able to do high level content. A lot of that is quest knowledge and player skill.

Imagine if you ran the exact same campaign in PnP over and over. On the 10th time... don't you think you'd know exactly how to beat each encounter? It's not so much that we're overpowered for every encounter in DDO... it's just that we know how to beat it.

RATRACE931
08-17-2007, 02:55 PM
So... your point is....

The game is getting harder because

A) Raids can be run with more people
B) People are bad players
C) More people means more people can screw up a raid

leading to harder content?

The content still isnt hard... the difficulty is only overcoming player ignorance. That has nothing to do with game development.

You touched on the number of people in raids, and brought up the dragon changes multiple times.

There are two basic strategies that get used now. One uses 2 people, the other uses 4. But... you seem to think the new changes will suddenly include more people. Most of the strategies I've seen suggested will take around 3-4 people.

That's it... no more people needed. These changes don't encourage more people to join, except in the case of two rangers.

---------------------------------------

And here is what I was inferring off your statements. I have sufficient experience with raids. Raids make up the majority of the high level content that I spend my time with every week. And your comments don't ring true with any of my experiences.

My guild has plenty of 'naked' raid runs.. and +1 weapon raids, and the like. Just to keep things interesting. And yes... it makes things "harder." But it doesn't make them hard. Uber loot makes a difference, but it's not the end-all, be-all of being able to do high level content. A lot of that is quest knowledge and player skill.

Imagine if you ran the exact same campaign in PnP over and over. On the 10th time... don't you think you'd know exactly how to beat each encounter? It's not so much that we're overpowered for every encounter in DDO... it's just that we know how to beat it.

Absolutly true, I love when say... a PUG im in every1 runs out of mana and im running around taking it slow in like madstone elite, every1 is out of buffs and bare bones, shows how good of a PLAYER you are not how well you can buff yourself for the guys round the corner. But in regards to the PnP comment... would you then change the campain just because you know it, i mean if you ran it ten times or more wouldnt that mean you like it... alot? Thats kind of my arguement, it seems to me that Turbine is butt-hurt because we KNOW every dust molecule in certain quests thus they become easier, i think they want to keep us in the dark... hence the Necropolis saga HA! Sorry that was bad.

jaitee
08-18-2007, 04:15 AM
LOL whats going to be next?

people will start saying that setting up a solid fog and then pulling mobs into is exploiting?

people will start saying that zerging with 5 barbs and 1 cleric is exploiting, because you all work as a team on 1 mob at a time, and they drop FAST?

people will start saying casters are exploiting because all they do is pk and FoD?

people will start saying clerics are exploiting because they carry 5000000000 heal scrolls?

people will start saying that dual wielding wounding of puncturing is exploiting because you do soo much con damage?

people will start saying zerging to the end of a quest for completion is a exploit because you are doing nothing?

people will start saying fascinating is too strong and using it all the time is a exploit?

people will start saying that that dwarven race and drow race is over powered and is a exploit to the game when all your toons are those 2 races?

people will start saying teleporting/greater telepoting/word of recall is exploiting, when you use it to run from a monster is exploiting the game?

people will start saying that displacement is a exploit because its a whole 50% chance of missing you?

people will start saying mutli classing rouges for example is exploiting when the MC can out do the full rouge?

people will start saying loot running the highest level quest for loot is exploiting the game?

people will start saying people short manning raids are exploiting?

people will start saying people running a 5 man quest is exploiting?

people will start saying the big 5 weapons are exploiting the game?

people will start saying cloudkill is exploiting the game because you CK everything?

people will start saying firewall is exploiting, because you spamm it?

people will start saying DD is a exploit because you use it to run from monsters?

people will start saying UMD is exploiting with you have 50 UMD?

give me a break!! all this talk about how this should be done this way and that is just a much of ...... if theirs a will theirs a way, and people will do it, all these things always get mentioned, and people come here and just talk about how unfair it is, and all this i play the game the way its ment to be, then we see your LFM saying, MUST KNOW THE QUEST WELL and all the tricks to it

PaintHorseCowboy
08-18-2007, 04:51 AM
It's called COMBAT TACTICS folks.

I suggest you learn some.

See the post I added onto the the whine about The Reaver's Fate if you'd like to see some deduction about where this sort of thing is taking us [EDIT: It's Number 71]:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=115879&page=4

Instead of spending time whining to the dev's about things, how about you give them some ideas for new content to help the game grow instead of complaining that there's a safe spot in The Low Road where the kobald shaman can't hit you with his lightning bolt!

Yeah, we'd better get that fixed right away! It's wrecking the game for me. [/sarcasm off]

wundernewb
08-18-2007, 08:32 AM
people will start saying that setting up a solid fog and then pulling mobs into is exploiting?



Actually, until I played this game, I thought "pulling" of any kind was exploiting the mob AI (as if a humanoid monster wouldn't be smart enough to know you are trying to get it away from its friends and towards yours)

After playing this game, and watching mobs kite melee players into CK's, fire/fear symbols, etc. I've changed my mind :D

Hafeal
08-20-2007, 11:12 AM
So... your point is....

The game is getting harder because

A) Raids can be run with more people
B) People are bad players
C) More people means more people can screw up a raid

leading to harder content?

No. The game is getting harder because Turbine is making changes to quests, in this case, the dragon run. The changes will make the quests harder. In addition, having more people on raids will present more of a challenge. Also, as Turbine improves AI, I have a feeling running quests, especially on elite will get harder.


The content still isnt hard... the difficulty is only overcoming player ignorance. That has nothing to do with game development.

IF the game is not hard for you, then why do you need more raid loot? This was my point in my first post. If the game ONLY holds loot for you, whether it takes 1 or 200 runs, who cares?

IF the game is about more than loot for you, then enjoy those aspects of the game. Maybe cutting down on your playing time is the last alternative to the ones I offered before.



Imagine if you ran the exact same campaign in PnP over and over. On the 10th time... don't you think you'd know exactly how to beat each encounter? It's not so much that we're overpowered for every encounter in DDO... it's just that we know how to beat it.

Exactly why you need to slow down or take a break.

Not one MMO on the market can create content fast enough that people spending 20+ hours or more playing a game. That is why taking a break is good or slowing down on time in front of the computer monitor. ;)

JayDubya
08-20-2007, 01:24 PM
Tekn0, I think it's probably time for you to go do something else for a while. You've given up on the game, and seem to have no purpose here anymore but to bash it.

If you gave any type of a "this game could be great, except that...." post, that would be fine. But at this point, all I ever see from you is "the game sucks, it will never be successful or fun, it's a complete disaster."

Well then, it's time for you to move on.

Do I think everyone who is unhappy should leave? No, of course not. Obviously with the new and improved changes to the raid mechanics, it is clear that the devs listen to the big issues, and respond. No one should ever get 100% of what they want out of this game - it should always be deficient in some way for every player.

I'll repeat that - every single player should have at least one thing about the game that bothers them. Preferably three or four things.

Why? Because every player has their own interests, style, background and passions. What you hate, another player may really enjoy. What you love, others may despise.

But that's ok! In fact, it's a good thing.

But Tekn0, I'm afraid, has hit rock-bottom - the point where nothing will ever be good about this game anymore for him.

And I would say that he's wasting his money by sticking around.


Good luck, Tekn0,and I hope you are able to find a pastime more in tune with your interests and expectations.

tekn0mage
08-20-2007, 10:57 PM
Tekn0, I think it's probably time for you to go do something else for a while. You've given up on the game, and seem to have no purpose here anymore but to bash it.

If you gave any type of a "this game could be great, except that...." post, that would be fine. But at this point, all I ever see from you is "the game sucks, it will never be successful or fun, it's a complete disaster."

Well then, it's time for you to move on.

Do I think everyone who is unhappy should leave? No, of course not. Obviously with the new and improved changes to the raid mechanics, it is clear that the devs listen to the big issues, and respond. No one should ever get 100% of what they want out of this game - it should always be deficient in some way for every player.

I'll repeat that - every single player should have at least one thing about the game that bothers them. Preferably three or four things.

Why? Because every player has their own interests, style, background and passions. What you hate, another player may really enjoy. What you love, others may despise.

But that's ok! In fact, it's a good thing.

But Tekn0, I'm afraid, has hit rock-bottom - the point where nothing will ever be good about this game anymore for him.

And I would say that he's wasting his money by sticking around.


Good luck, Tekn0,and I hope you are able to find a pastime more in tune with your interests and expectations.

Now that they listened to me (and others) about the raid loot, I see a bright future ahead. I think I'll stick around.

You're free to go patronize someone else though.

Stonebread
08-21-2007, 12:59 PM
However, come on the running the bases method, although effective was in my mind a lame tactic that exploited poor AI, was boring for most invloved.

QFT