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gpk
08-13-2007, 01:42 PM
It's gotten lost in the recent discussions of other topics, but i wonder:
do the devs realize the new Extend Spell change hurts paladins and rangers?

Paladins and Rangers with extend Spell are getting hurt because the majority of their spell are level 1 and 2, Paladin especially are getting hurt because the spell they cast the most, divine favor is a level 1 spell. Other casters have gotten much love with the addition of many extra spell points and now even more with the new metamagic changes.

Paladins and Rangers however got NO spell points and are effectively losing spell points now due to the new Extend Spell flat cost. Please consider how this will affect us Rangers and Paladins (all of the ones I know have the Extend Spell feat).

Please consider a cheap 1-2 point low prerequesite+low level enhancement (as others have suggested) called "Paladin/Ranger extend spell" to keep the cost of extend as it is now or tossing us 120+ extra spell points to counteract the change.
At the very least I think a free dragonshard to Rangers/Pallies w/ Extend Spell would be warranted as it would be a waste of a feat under the new metamagic system.

I implore you please don't forget about us spell level 1-2 casters!

gpk

Cavalier
08-13-2007, 01:55 PM
Not all Paladins have Extend Spell. I have 2, a L14 and an L11 and neither do. They do VERY fine without it and they are, quite literally, a SECONADARY spellcasting class.

We already benefit from having our Paladin Level = Our Caster Level, so this is a very minor thing. A well built Paladin who is not min/max'd will have enough spell points to counteract this. I have 490 on my L14 and my L12 has 295 without the +6 WIS helm my L14 Pally has.

DasLurch
08-13-2007, 01:59 PM
The Bards get hit a bit with this as well. We tend to cast a lot of level 1-3 spells. They hurt a bit more on extend now....

JosephKell
08-13-2007, 02:01 PM
I would rather they change the metamagic to be +% or flat cost, whichever is lower :D

pastor_dex
08-13-2007, 02:04 PM
I don't use extend, but the fact you now have a wasted feat of it due to changes about to be made after such a long time of it being a certain way, meansTurbine does have a responsibility to provided compensation.

Hopefully they will own up to the obligation and do something.

gpk
08-13-2007, 02:10 PM
Not all Paladins have Extend Spell. I have 2, a L14 and an L11 and neither do. They do VERY fine without it and they are, quite literally, a SECONADARY spellcasting class.

We already benefit from having our Paladin Level = Our Caster Level, so this is a very minor thing. A well built Paladin who is not min/max'd will have enough spell points to counteract this. I have 490 on my L14 and my L12 has 295 without the +6 WIS helm my L14 Pally has.

A paladin whot took Mental Tougness over Extend, has more than 20 Wis w/ a +6 item or took many SP enhancements over the Aura's, CHA and LOH is not what many would consider a "well built" paladin.
I'm at 425 at 20 wisdom, 125 SP item and 20 from enhancements (add another 75 for me , spell storinf ring. I also passed on 2 x +3 Wisdom tomes that I won, so that coulda been a tad more sp), hardly the min max and the effective loss of 100+ SPs is still gonna hurt. Keep in mind 425 (500 w/ SP ring) is far above the average SP for a typical pally build which tends to be round 325 +- 25.

P.S. How is your Holy mount doing ? Keeping it well fed I hope?

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 02:17 PM
Not all Paladins have Extend Spell. I have 2, a L14 and an L11 and neither do. They do VERY fine without it and they are, quite literally, a SECONADARY spellcasting class.
Obviously paladins are secondardy spellcasters- but they are a "PRIMARY" combat class; and it is through Divine Favor that they are able to fill that role.

GeneralDiomedes
08-13-2007, 02:29 PM
I'll just respec Extend for Mental Toughness on my Ranger and continue as per normal.

I'm just glad I didn't take that level of Wizard I was contemplating ..

gpk
08-13-2007, 02:35 PM
I'll just respec Extend for Mental Toughness on my Ranger and continue as per normal.

I'm just glad I didn't take that level of Wizard I was contemplating ..

Ya worse comes to worse I'd like to respec it too (and still effectively lose out on SP). I hope there's a Dragonshard in my mailbox com mod5!

Yep as Gimpster had pointed out in another thread, what about those poor fighter types that took Wiz1 for the metamagic feat (extend shield)? SOL huh.

Snike
08-13-2007, 02:52 PM
The big difference:

OLD extend: +50% cost for x2 duration, for a 10sp buff... +5sp more

New extend: x2 duration... +10sp more

I was wondering why extend was just as expensive as empower and I really wondered why more people did make post complaining about this long before when it was first anounced.

For a paladin doing a round on 1 resist buffs on a group it's +30sp more than it was before the change.

gpk
08-13-2007, 04:00 PM
Scenario: 20 minute run before shrine:
BEFORE:

10x extended Divne Favors: 10*15=150
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*23=184
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 38=76
150+184+76=410 SP
410 SP is more than the typical Paladin has, lets assume pally has good Wis, magi item maybe 20 more SPs from enhancement, its kinda achievale though not typical.
This of course doesnt include ANY dispelled spell recasts.

AFTER
10x extended Divne Favors: 10*20=200
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*25=200
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 35=70
200+200+70=470 SP

60 SP point Diff so far.

Let's factor in say 4 dispelled DFs,4 dispelled resists, 1 dispelled DW that need to be recast:

Old Extend:

410 SP + 4 * 15 + 4 * 23 + 38=600

New Extend

470 + 4 * 20 + 4 * 25 + 35=685

685-600=85 SP Difference betweeon old and new system.

For the sake of argument let's assume this is a quasi-typical scenario.
Of course one could argue you may not recast extended version of the spell after dispell but one could also argue that you're more likely to fail a concentration check when recasting in combat, and if anything you are twice as likely to fail a conc check for DF.

That's more than a 30 SP difference with the added downside of possibly casting more DFs during combat, spending time on cast and risking more interruptions. Little bit here, little bit there; it adds up very fast.

gpk

sigtrent
08-13-2007, 04:08 PM
It would be thoughtfull if they gave characters a re-spec who have one or more meta magic feats. It does change the math for folks.

Over all I like the change but I'm biased as I have a number of caster characters that use it, none of them pure pallys or rangers. (most of my hybrid casters don't bother with extend anyway since they are using feats for something other than spellcasting)

joker965
08-13-2007, 04:49 PM
I have a cleric with 4 metamagic feats and a paladin with the extend feat. I don't really care that DF will cost 5 more spell points a cast . This is a huge boost for primary casters that are using 3+ level spells mostly.

Cupcake
08-13-2007, 04:49 PM
I have a lvl 13 Ranger and a low level pally. Neither of them has extend or any other mega feat.

Snike
08-13-2007, 04:53 PM
Examples you guys give don't show resists. Really at higher levels rangers and paladins are covering resists to help save clerics mana. I think that is where extend is used most and will have the biggest impact.

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 04:54 PM
I have a cleric with 4 metamagic feats and a paladin with the extend feat. I don't really care that DF will cost 5 more spell points a cast . This is a huge boost for primary casters that are using 3+ level spells mostly.
Have you noticed how important is is for primary casters to keep level 2 spells like Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Resist Cold, Resist Acid, and Blur on all party members continuously?

Extending those spells will no longer be the cost-saver it is today.

Vordax
08-13-2007, 05:04 PM
Have you noticed how important is is for primary casters to keep level 2 spells like Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Resist Cold, Resist Acid, and Blur on all party members continuously?

Extending those spells will no longer be the cost-saver it is today.

There really isn't a lot of quests where you need to extend 1min/lvl buffs. Usually a shrine comes along before then or the buff gets dispelled.

Vordax

Impaqt
08-13-2007, 05:10 PM
its sad really.... THis is the worst thing people could come up with to complain about so far?

WOrst case scenarion.. DOuble the Duration for DOuble the Cost.... You arent losing anything versus Casting the buff Twice. You just arent gaining any like you were before. Your not saving any spell points by Dropping Extend.

Vua
08-13-2007, 05:22 PM
Scenario: 20 minute run before shrine:
BEFORE:

10x extended Divne Favors: 10*15=150
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*23=184
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 38=76
150+184+76=410 SP
410 SP is more than the typical Paladin has, lets assume pally has good Wis, magi item maybe 20 more SPs from enhancement, its kinda achievale though not typical.
This of course doesnt include ANY dispelled spell recasts.

AFTER
10x extended Divne Favors: 10*20=200
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*25=200
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 35=70
200+200+70=470 SP

60 SP point Diff so far.

Let's factor in say 4 dispelled DFs,4 dispelled resists, 1 dispelled DW that need to be recast:

Old Extend:

410 SP + 4 * 15 + 4 * 23 + 38=600

New Extend

470 + 4 * 20 + 4 * 25 + 35=685

685-600=85 SP Difference betweeon old and new system.

For the sake of argument let's assume this is a quasi-typical scenario.
Of course one could argue you may not recast extended version of the spell after dispell but one could also argue that you're more likely to fail a concentration check when recasting in combat, and if anything you are twice as likely to fail a conc check for DF.

That's more than a 30 SP difference with the added downside of possibly casting more DFs during combat, spending time on cast and risking more interruptions. Little bit here, little bit there; it adds up very fast.

gpk

I understand extending resists and deathward as a pally. I don't necessarily agree with the need for it but I understand it. Other than 2-3 situations in the game, I don't understand extending divine favor at all. Most fights don't last long enough to justify doing it, and if you have to, it may be for 1 fight in a dungeon. So you have 10x extended divine favors per quest. Seems like a big waste of spell points right off the bat since 60-70% of that is spent finding mobs to kill.

Not to be rude. Why in the world are you extending buffs when you know they can be dispelled? Seriously this is just stupid IMO and you deserve to be left with no spell points. As far as failing concentration checks, bleh. While you may be a good melee Paladin, you are going to get a break in combat to recast your divine favor or resists if they get dispelled or run out. And honestly, if you are actually built to fight a little bit, you should be able to finish a fight without divine favor on occasion.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 05:35 PM
its sad really.... THis is the worst thing people could come up with to complain about so far?

WOrst case scenarion.. DOuble the Duration for DOuble the Cost.... You arent losing anything versus Casting the buff Twice. You just arent gaining any like you were before. Your not saving any spell points by Dropping Extend.

BUT THE MATH LOOK AT THE MATH!!! LoL

/agree

Oh no 20sp for a 2 min Divine Favor or 10sp for a 1 min one.
As for resists since 30 resists are the preferred anyways, that has you looking at a min lvl 11 caster, with 11 min resist; can;t really think of anywhere that I truly need a 22 min resist. usually hit a shrine before then anyways. So I really don't see what the complaint is about. And have to agree with Alandale that this is one of the worst things I have seen people complain about so far.

gpk
08-13-2007, 05:51 PM
I understand extending resists and deathward as a pally. I don't necessarily agree with the need for it but I understand it. Other than 2-3 situations in the game, I don't understand extending divine favor at all. Most fights don't last long enough to justify doing it, and if you have to, it may be for 1 fight in a dungeon. So you have 10x extended divine favors per quest. Seems like a big waste of spell points right off the bat since 60-70% of that is spent finding mobs to kill.

Not to be rude. Why in the world are you extending buffs when you know they can be dispelled? Seriously this is just stupid IMO and you deserve to be left with no spell points. As far as failing concentration checks, bleh. While you may be a good melee Paladin, you are going to get a break in combat to recast your divine favor or resists if they get dispelled or run out. And honestly, if you are actually built to fight a little bit, you should be able to finish a fight without divine favor on occasion.

LOL Stupid is casting 2x divine favor for 20 sp when 1 extended right now is 15 (saving time for recast, casting in front of mob etc).
Stupid is casting another unextended resist for the few extra minutes after the 1st one ran out. There's no guarantee of a dispell i just threw it in to show the difference CAN be more pronounced.

Of course you CAN finish a fight without DF but what's the point?
Even in it's current +3 form (down from +5) DF is a Paladin's bread and butter, especially in the absence of pally only spells like Righteous Fury.
You may as well tell a fighter to take off strength item every now and then. Tell the ranger not to use manyshot. Tell a barbarian not to rage because he doesn't "need" to. Tell the wizard not to haste you, you don't "need" it. Tell the bard not to sing , you don't "need" it.

Not using the tools at your disposal is just stupid IMO.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 05:54 PM
LOL Stupid is casting 2x divine favor for 20 sp when 1 extended right now is 15 (saving time for recast, casting in front of mob etc).
Stupid is casting another unextended resist for the few extra minutes after the 1st one ran out. There's no guarantee of a dispell i just threw it in to show the difference CAN be more pronounced.

Of course you CAN finish a fight without DF but what's the point?
Even in it's current +3 form (down from +5) DF is a Paladin's bread and butter, especially in the absence of pally only spells like Righteous Fury.
You may as well tell a fighter to take off strength item every now and then. Tell the ranger not to use manyshot. Tell a barbarian not to rage because he doesn't "need" to. Tell the wizard not to haste you, you don't "need" it. Tell the bard not to sing , you don't "need" it.

Not using the tools at your disposal is just stupid IMO.

And wasting a feat on extend can be considered just as foolish...why not take toughness, or combat casting, or spring attack line, etc etc....

gpk
08-13-2007, 05:58 PM
its sad really.... THis is the worst thing people could come up with to complain about so far?

WOrst case scenarion.. DOuble the Duration for DOuble the Cost.... You arent losing anything versus Casting the buff Twice. You just arent gaining any like you were before. Your not saving any spell points by Dropping Extend.

Casting DF twice is worse than casting it once but hey if you can't see that what can i tell ya.

I AM saving spell points by dropping extend because I can respec it out for Mental Toughness . Of couse I have to get a dragonshard of my own (assuming I still have the one I got for Argo favor or found onr or whatever whatever). That little nugget of information also seems to be eluding you...

Mad_Bombardier
08-13-2007, 06:04 PM
And wasting a feat on extend can be considered just as foolish...why not take toughness, or combat casting, or spring attack line, etc etc....I play a Buff Ranger; it's who I am and what I do. I'm a non-Dwarven Ranger, so Toughness does me no good aside from 16 HP. Combat Casting is not necessary as I buff pre-battle. Spring Attack is 3 feats, not 1.

Extend used to save my Ranger a minimum of 108 SP per shrine/rest period (and sometimes more). It was, IMO, a good choice of feat for my build; better than MentalToughness +75SP. Now, it will save me a maximum of 30 SP per shrine. IMO, not a good use of a feat for any build. Dumping Extend is my only recourse. And it saddens me that Turbine will knowingly break a feat for character levels or classes and make it near useless. :(

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 06:07 PM
Casting DF twice is worse than casting it once but hey if you can't see that what can i tell ya.

I AM saving spell points by dropping extend because I can respec it out for Mental Toughness . Of couse I have to get a dragonshard of my own (assuming I still have the one I got for Argo favor or found onr or whatever whatever). That little nugget of information also seems to be eluding you...

How is casting it twice worse when it's going to work out to the same SP and time?? I have a Lvl 14 Pally and he does fine casting it once - heck belive it or not he just just as well if it runs out. And to boot as was previously mentioned most fights don't even last 2 minutes, let alone 1 minute.

gpk
08-13-2007, 06:08 PM
And wasting a feat on extend can be considered just as foolish...why not take toughness, or combat casting, or spring attack line, etc etc....

Combat casting and the spring attack line huh, really that's what you wanna go with ?
Dodge: +1 AC always good, but worth a feat?
Mobility: useless without tumble and even then only when your in real trouble do you tumble away.
SPring Attack: Kinda ok pre mod3 vs high AC mobs, 2 prereq feats=ouch for all but ftr. More fun now where you chase the mobs around and the swings don't register as hits.

As a level 6 feat not requiring other prereqs , Extend was/is a good feat to take, you got a good return on your investment througout the lower/mid levels too, especially considering how long there was a level 10 cap.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 06:09 PM
I play a Buff Ranger; it's who I am and what I do. I'm a non-Dwarven Ranger, so Toughness does me no good aside from 16 HP. Combat Casting is not necessary as I buff pre-battle. Spring Attack is 3 feats, not 1.

Extend used to save my Ranger a minimum of 108 SP per shrine/rest period (and sometimes more). It was, IMO, a good choice of feat for my build; better than MentalToughness +75SP. Now, it will save me a maximum of 30 SP per shrine. IMO, not a good use of a feat for any build. Dumping Extend is my only recourse. And it saddens me that Turbine will knowingly break a feat for character levels or classes and make it near useless. :(

No offense but you chose the route of a buffing ranger; and I still dont see the point of having the buff extended; it just isn't needed. You can go through just about any quest and reach a shine fastest or even have the quest finished.

Vua
08-13-2007, 06:09 PM
LOL Stupid is casting 2x divine favor for 20 sp when 1 extended right now is 15 (saving time for recast, casting in front of mob etc).
Stupid is casting another unextended resist for the few extra minutes after the 1st one ran out. There's no guarantee of a dispell i just threw it in to show the difference CAN be more pronounced.

Of course you CAN finish a fight without DF but what's the point?
Even in it's current +3 form (down from +5) DF is a Paladin's bread and butter, especially in the absence of pally only spells like Righteous Fury.
You may as well tell a fighter to take off strength item every now and then. Tell the ranger not to use manyshot. Tell a barbarian not to rage because he doesn't "need" to. Tell the wizard not to haste you, you don't "need" it. Tell the bard not to sing , you don't "need" it.

Not using the tools at your disposal is just stupid IMO.

You are almost never saving spell points by casting an extended divine favor. Fights don't last long enough to justify it the vast majority of the time. Spend a minute of it fighting and a minute of it traveling and you just ****ed away 5 spell points.

Obviously I wouldn't tell any of those classes not to do those things. But if you are in a fight that is almost over (which it should be since you are about to cast your 2nd extended divine favor) then yes I expect them not to do those things. Why rage to kill 1 or 2 mobs if it's going to cause you to have no rages for a fight later. Why use manyshot at the end of a fight if you won't be able to use it for the next one. Why cast an extended divine favor just to mop up a fight so you can wander around aimlessly and waste 15 spell points doing it.

I can reverse this of course. Some fights just don't require you to buff yourself to the hilt and sometimes this includes divine favor. Do you tell rogues to use their action boost even though they can spot a trap without it? Do you tell Sorcerers to Max/Empower/Extend a wall of fire even though a normal one would kill everything? Do you tell people to put on all resists even though you only need 1?

I'm sure we can go on like this all night so how about we just end it here.

Oh yeah. My Ranger took 1 level of Wizzie to get Extend and some spell points so it's not as though I won't be affected at all.

Cowdenicus
08-13-2007, 06:10 PM
extend works great for my cleric. I am sorry if they are making things better for CASTERS.

The only class that really should be complaining is Bards.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 06:11 PM
Combat casting and the spring attack line huh, really that's what you wanna go with ?
Dodge: +1 AC always good, but worth a feat?
Mobility: useless without tumble and even then only when your in real trouble do you tumble away.
SPring Attack: Kinda ok pre mod3 vs high AC mobs, 2 prereq feats=ouch for all but ftr. More fun now where you chase the mobs around and the swings don't register as hits.

As a level 6 feat not requiring other prereqs , Extend was/is a good feat to take, you got a good return on your investment througout the lower/mid levels too, especially considering how long there was a level 10 cap.

My Pally has the spring attack line and its a great investment better than casting DF and standing still. As for the level 10 being cap, that was how long ago. A lot of things were different back then.

Don't get me wrong I am not telling you how to play your builds; just putting my own insight into the discussion.

gpk
08-13-2007, 06:13 PM
How is casting it twice worse when it's going to work out to the same SP and time?? I have a Lvl 14 Pally and he does fine casting it once - heck belive it or not he just just as well if it runs out. And to boot as was previously mentioned most fights don't even last 2 minutes, let alone 1 minute.

The argument is that it cost less to cast 2x under the old system and you don't waste those precious few seconds in front of mobs swinging at you attempting to ruing you concentration. And typically fights DO last more than 1 minute often you might break off into smaller groups, have a non full party or run after a high threat fleeing caster/archer all the while swinging and having hits not register. Or heck here's a thought ,maybe I chase down a mob that's currently aggroed on a lower hp/ac party member that's being overwhelmed. Oh idk i might toss a restore or wand hit or re-resist a party member in trouble.

Not all of us sit there right clicking the closest mob till it's dead, makin sure we get the last swing in for the allmighty kill count.

Vua
08-13-2007, 06:21 PM
The argument is that it cost less to cast 2x under the old system and you don't waste those precious few seconds in front of mobs swinging at you attempting to ruing you concentration. And typically fights DO last more than 1 minute often you might break off into smaller groups, have a non full party or run after a high threat fleeing caster/archer all the while swinging and having hits not register. Or heck here's a thought ,maybe I chase down a mob that's currently aggroed on a lower hp/ac party member that's being overwhelmed. Oh idk i might toss a restore or wand hit or re-resist a party member in trouble.

Not all of us sit there right clicking the closest mob till it's dead, makin sure we get the last swing in for the allmighty kill count.

Your opinion is your opinion. If you think it's worth casting extended Virtues, more power to you. But fights do not, I repeat do not typically last 1 minute. Even the largest fights in this game for the most part don't last 1 minute. When they do you are probably in a lot more trouble than your extended divine favor is going to be able to help with.

Mercules
08-13-2007, 06:21 PM
Have you noticed how important is is for primary casters to keep level 2 spells like Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Resist Cold, Resist Acid, and Blur on all party members continuously?

Extending those spells will no longer be the cost-saver it is today.

Are you saying people might want to bring a Bard specialized as a Spellsinger along with them now? My 8th level Bard just swapped around enhancements to get that and so far it looks to be saving people SPs especially for that initial burst of buffing just after entering or just before big fights.

Oh, and for those classes getting the enhancements for meta-magic feats it isn't going to be costing them that much more for their extended buffs since they will be lowering the cost back down with enhancements.

Sorry... but you already get Paladin/Ranger level = caster level. That is already a bonus. I know it's hard to loose something you had all along, but that is how it goes. I think my WF Fighter with the splash of Wiz will be swapping out extend. Not sure though, I don't HAVE to turn it on, but I might want to if I expect the next fight to go long.

Mercules
08-13-2007, 06:24 PM
And typically fights DO last more than 1 minute often you might break off into smaller groups, have a non full party or run after a high threat fleeing caster/archer all the while swinging and having hits not register.

This would be a good reason to bring one of those ranged focused people everyone considers "worthless". Precise shot and your melee crew do not have to chase down casters anymore, the ranged person will drop them for you. Chasing them is frustrating, why not let someone else drop them quickly and painlessly?

gpk
08-13-2007, 06:36 PM
Sorry... but you already get Paladin/Ranger level = caster level. That is already a bonus. I know it's hard to loose something you had all along, but that is how it goes. I think my WF Fighter with the splash of Wiz will be swapping out extend. Not sure though, I don't HAVE to turn it on, but I might want to if I expect the next fight to go long.

As ppl have said b4 Paladin's get caster level/level and they DON'T get horseys. I can deal with losing things but so far I've lost +2 to DF, base aura, now im losing my low level extend. What did I get in return? Laugable spells like Angel Skin and Holy Sword and a Divine Righteousness enhancement that I might not ever be able to squeeze in due to high prereq cost and questionable usefulness. Other classes "lost" stuff but gained good things in return. Full casters lost some duration, gained a LOT of SP, gaining even more under new changes. Bards got some cool new songs and usually came out better overrall after enhancenment changes. Clerics got their DF capped but got Divine Power fixed, and under DDO's non spell slots/day system and w/ more SP then can practically use DP constantly.
Barbarians lost a bit of top end dmg and in return got Rage Crit 2, restoration finally working on exhaustion, they're getting terminate rage etc etc.

Forgive me for being irrate but it seems every update or so I keep "losing" stuff and get nothing in return. It just seems like this time there was zero consideration given to Paladins and (to a lesser degree?) Rangers.
There's an easy way to make up for stuff Paladins have lost, free dragon shard to those w/ Extend and implement some direly needed spells like Righteous Fury (and Righteous Aura).

gpk
08-13-2007, 06:38 PM
This would be a good reason to bring one of those ranged focused people everyone considers "worthless". Precise shot and your melee crew do not have to chase down casters anymore, the ranged person will drop them for you. Chasing them is frustrating, why not let someone else drop them quickly and painlessly?

Hey no arguments here, a good Ranger is a most welcome addition to any of my groups. Doesn't mean there's awlays 1 around though.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 06:43 PM
The argument is that it cost less to cast 2x under the old system and you don't waste those precious few seconds in front of mobs swinging at you attempting to ruing you concentration. And typically fights DO last more than 1 minute often you might break off into smaller groups, have a non full party or run after a high threat fleeing caster/archer all the while swinging and having hits not register. Or heck here's a thought ,maybe I chase down a mob that's currently aggroed on a lower hp/ac party member that's being overwhelmed. Oh idk i might toss a restore or wand hit or re-resist a party member in trouble.

Not all of us sit there right clicking the closest mob till it's dead, makin sure we get the last swing in for the allmighty kill count.

I wouldn't consider chasing down a fleeing enemy a fight. And just think you wouldn't need DF if you had spring attack. And I am not sure why you brought up "the almighty kill count" since no one had mentioned it. All i said was spring attack works wonders since you can just run around a mob smacking them all with out that -4 and while doing so avoid a bunch of dmg taken on by yourself.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 06:51 PM
As ppl have said b4 Paladin's get caster level/level and they DON'T get horseys. I can deal with losing things but so far I've lost +2 to DF, base aura, now im losing my low level extend. What did I get in return? Laugable spells like Angel Skin and Holy Sword and a Divine Righteousness enhancement that I might not ever be able to squeeze in due to high prereq cost and questionable usefulness. Other classes "lost" stuff but gained good things in return. Full casters lost some duration, gained a LOT of SP, gaining even more under new changes. Bards got some cool new songs and usually came out better overrall after enhancenment changes. Clerics got their DF capped but got Divine Power fixed, and under DDO's non spell slots/day system and w/ more SP then can practically use DP constantly.
Barbarians lost a bit of top end dmg and in return got Rage Crit 2, restoration finally working on exhaustion, they're getting terminate rage etc etc.

Forgive me for being irrate but it seems every update or so I keep "losing" stuff and get nothing in return. It just seems like this time there was zero consideration given to Paladins and (to a lesser degree?) Rangers.
There's an easy way to make up for stuff Paladins have lost, free dragon shard to those w/ Extend and implement some direly needed spells like Righteous Fury (and Righteous Aura).

Seriously if you are that hard pressed for a dragon shard just let me know I will log onto your server and get you one within a couple days. Them giving out another dragonshard it a waste of time. Heck go talk to Lockania in the harbor for a free feat respec.

gpk
08-13-2007, 06:54 PM
I wouldn't consider chasing down a fleeing enemy a fight. And just think you wouldn't need DF if you had spring attack. And I am not sure why you brought up "the almighty kill count" since no one had mentioned it. All i said was spring attack works wonders since you can just run around a mob smacking them all with out that -4 and while doing so avoid a bunch of dmg taken on by yourself.

My point was you spend a bit of xtra time chasign after a mob and that extend helps a lot in not having to recast during combat AND save SP, a counterpoint to those saying fights only last 1 minute.

As far as the spring attack line, the only way to avoid dmg is if you TUMBLE after said mob for the +4 ac (on top of the +1 dodge) and that's of course assuming you have a straight line to said mob where you can tumble past mobs that MAY be aggroed on you. Mobility of course requires ranks in tumble for a net positive tumble.
So again, you're telling me Sping attack +mobility , 2 feats on top of Dodge ONLY useful when chasing and tumbling is better than more DF? Or did you mean "circle strafing" a mob, where you lose out on the attack bonus progression, have a slower swing rate and the mob more often than not still hits you.

I'm really failing to see your point here, maybe it's me, but I really dont see how you can compare Extend to Dodge->Mobility (+ potential tumble ranks)->Spring Attack.

gpk
08-13-2007, 07:00 PM
Seriously if you are that hard pressed for a dragon shard just let me know I will log onto your server and get you one within a couple days. Them giving out another dragonshard it a waste of time. Heck go talk to Lockania in the harbor for a free feat respec.

Excellent I was recently merged into Khyber, I look forward to hearing from you.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 07:23 PM
My point was you spend a bit of xtra time chasign after a mob and that extend helps a lot in not having to recast during combat AND save SP, a counterpoint to those saying fights only last 1 minute.

As far as the spring attack line, the only way to avoid dmg is if you TUMBLE after said mob for the +4 ac (on top of the +1 dodge) and that's of course assuming you have a straight line to said mob where you can tumble past mobs that MAY be aggroed on you. Mobility of course requires ranks in tumble for a net positive tumble.
So again, you're telling me Sping attack +mobility , 2 feats on top of Dodge ONLY useful when chasing and tumbling is better than more DF? Or did you mean "circle strafing" a mob, where you lose out on the attack bonus progression, have a slower swing rate and the mob more often than not still hits you.

I'm really failing to see your point here, maybe it's me, but I really dont see how you can compare Extend to Dodge->Mobility (+ potential tumble ranks)->Spring Attack.

I think you are failing to see any point here; your complaint about the changes to the extend spells are pointless. And I think you might be relying on your DF a little too much, from all your posts. I can run quests on elite and forget to use DF the whole quest and still do fine which is probably why I don't see the need for extend nor understand why you are complaining.

I am not comparing extend to spring attack line. I am saying that an extended DF is not needed. Very few fights last long enough you not to be missing out on over 30 seconds (minimum) of your 2 minute DF. And FYI you don't need point in tumble to take mobility the only prerequisite is dodge.

gpk
08-13-2007, 07:33 PM
I think you are failing to see any point here; your complaint about the changes to the extend spells are pointless. And I think you might be relying on your DF a little too much, from all your posts. I can run quests on elite and forget to use DF the whole quest and still do fine which is probably why I don't see the need for extend nor understand why you are complaining.

I am not comparing extend to spring attack line. I am saying that an extended DF is not needed. Very few fights last long enough you not to be missing out on over 30 seconds (minimum) of your 2 minute DF. And FYI you don't need point in tumble to take mobility the only prerequisite is dodge.

No you are failing the to see the point, it's not a question of relying on it to do FINE. By your logic why use any buffs at all , you can still do FINE. Run a quest on elite, no blur no haste, no greater hero you can still do FINE. None of those buffes are NEEDED to do FINE are they?

Moblilty without tumble basically means you have a feat for no other reason than having it as a prereq for spring attack, your choice.

Imagine if they went and changed spring attack requiring you to have SOME ranks in tumble for Mobility or suffer a -2 penalty when moving instead of -4, or having it only work on the 2nd of the 2 swing when attacking and moving, would you still be happy you took it?

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 07:44 PM
Imagine if they went and changed spring attack requiring you to have SOME ranks in tumble for Mobility or suffer a -2 penalty when moving instead of -4, or having it only work on the 2nd of the 2 swing when attacking and moving, would you still be happy you took it?

I would suck it up. And next level put points into tumble.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 07:45 PM
extend works great for my cleric. I am sorry if they are making things better for CASTERS.

The only class that really should be complaining is Bards.


/agree

Cowdenicus
08-13-2007, 07:45 PM
Clerics got their DF capped but got Divine Power fixed, and under DDO's non spell slots/day system and w/ more SP then can practically use DP constantly.



No we cannot, we have to chase around paladins who think they can take everything on their own and heal heal heal heal them.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 07:48 PM
I've never felt the need to take extend on any of my rangers.

Weapon Focus - Slashing
Toughness (or dodge)
Power Critical
Imp Critical Slashing
Imp Critical Ranged

I can't justify dropping any of these feats just so I can save 5 sp's per cast.

My lvl 14 ranger has 330 sp's with a 12 wisdom and a +2 wis item and PoP VIII.

If I had to cast 2 resists on 6 ppl I can keep resists up for nearly half an hour before shrining. After buffing the party with Barkskin and resists, the cleric has never had a problem throwing me 1 or 2 dv's either.

At lvl 14 you only have 5 (or 6 for human) feats to play with. I've never understood rangers taking extend spell as one of them.

But if you want to buff the party and not kill things, that's your choice. I do both things fine without extend spell.

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 07:49 PM
Your opinion is your opinion. If you think it's worth casting extended Virtues, more power to you. But fights do not, I repeat do not typically last 1 minute.
Of course fights don't last 1 minute. That is why it's useful to cast Extended Divine Favor- because you will do multiple fights with one spell.

Imagine a barbarian using his Rage for just one fight and not trying to do 3 or 4 combat encounters before it ended... ludicrous.

Cahira
08-13-2007, 08:03 PM
extend works great for my cleric. I am sorry if they are making things better for CASTERS.

The only class that really should be complaining is Bards.

/agree

Depending on the bard build, it's not that bad. The only buffs that my bard regularly casts are haste, Good Hope, Greater Heroism, and Freedom of Movement.

All of those are either the same or better in this new system...so I'm not too worried about my bard.

However, I'm mostly concerned by low level characters. I would think that the characters who most need to extend shield, bless, aid, blur, elemental resists, etc. (lvl 1 and 2 spells) are the low level characters. A 1 minute shield is not very long, and when your base SP pool is 130, that's a pretty good chunk of SP just to cast it before each possible caster battle in the low level dungeons (like Garrison's Missing Pack or Waterworks). And you still need to conserve for crowd control or nuking (depending on your style).

Or consider a cleric in a low level dungeon. There are some really useful buffs at low levels, but if you spend too much manna buffing your party, it doesn't leave much for healing.

That's why I think that it would make a lot of sense to decrease the extend cost for 1st lvl spells to somewhere in the 5-7 SP range.

That way, you'd still have a benefit at first level...if you take Extend at first level.

salmag
08-13-2007, 08:05 PM
I think that the Extend Feat probably should be a total +5sp because it is the only feat in its chain (remember there is no Improved Extend, etc.).

Personally, I use a magi item +100 on my lvl14 Ranger to buff people, then swap to my normal equipment during the quest. Whenever I shrine I make sure I re-equip my magi item. Then rebuff as needed.

Torosar
08-13-2007, 08:10 PM
extend works great for my cleric. I am sorry if they are making things better for CASTERS.

I think you'll find that's part of the issue raised here by Gpk. Caster's (wiz, sorc and cleric) recently received an increase to their spell point pool and sorcs even get double benefit from items such as Pearl's of Power or Magi items. Paladin's, Ranger's and Bard's received nothing, no increase in mana.. not even a slight one. Now metamagics have been changed as well and one of them which actually happens to be useful for all casting classes adversly affects some casting classes. I mean yeah, its helpful for the main classes which is good.. but the question is.. why discriminate against the others? If some casting classes are getting love, shouldn't there be love for all?

gpk
08-13-2007, 08:19 PM
I've never felt the need to take extend on any of my rangers.

Weapon Focus - Slashing
Toughness (or dodge)
Power Critical
Imp Critical Slashing
Imp Critical Ranged

I can't justify dropping any of these feats just so I can save 5 sp's per cast.

My lvl 14 ranger has 330 sp's with a 12 wisdom and a +2 wis item and PoP VIII.

If I had to cast 2 resists on 6 ppl I can keep resists up for nearly half an hour before shrining. After buffing the party with Barkskin and resists, the cleric has never had a problem throwing me 1 or 2 dv's either.

At lvl 14 you only have 5 (or 6 for human) feats to play with. I've never understood rangers taking extend spell as one of them.

But if you want to buff the party and not kill things, that's your choice. I do both things fine without extend spell.

Doesn't hurt that resists are level 1 spell for rangers (lev 2 for paladins) so those 12 resists you cast are at a saving of 60 SP vs a Pally. I included Rangers in the discussion because I believe many ARE affected, but not to the extent that Paladins are. Rangers after all don't cast a level 1 , 1 min duration spell called "Favored Enemy".

I think many could still argue extend >power critical, but hey that's your choice.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 08:21 PM
Of course fights don't last 1 minute. That is why it's useful to cast Extended Divine Favor- because you will do multiple fights with one spell.

Imagine a barbarian using his Rage for just one fight and not trying to do 3 or 4 combat encounters before it ended... ludicrous.

My cleric would welcome your ludicrous idea :D

Chelsa
08-13-2007, 08:22 PM
Gave up on extend along time ago. On upper level content the amount of debuffing that mobs do pretty much makes it waist. All the change does is cause Palys and Rangers to be more situational with their buffs.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 08:29 PM
Doesn't hurt that resists are level 1 spell for rangers (lev 2 for paladins) so those 12 resists you cast are at a saving of 60 SP vs a Pally. I included Rangers in the discussion because I believe many ARE affected, but not to the extent that Paladins are. Rangers after all don't cast a level 1 , 1 min duration spell called "Favored Enemy".

I think many could still argue extend >power critical, but hey that's your choice.

You might be right. But I confirm my crits almost all of the time without a bloodstone.

Running out of sp's has never been a problem as it rarely happens and for the times I run low, I use Mnemonic Potions. They're a reasonbly common item.

I've never even wished I had extend. I'm even thinking of taking it off my Sorc. The only penalty for that is Haste.

Vua
08-13-2007, 08:31 PM
Of course fights don't last 1 minute. That is why it's useful to cast Extended Divine Favor- because you will do multiple fights with one spell.

Imagine a barbarian using his Rage for just one fight and not trying to do 3 or 4 combat encounters before it ended... ludicrous.

A Barbarian doesn't have the choice to cast a non extended rage. Try comparing 2 items in the same realm here. You know, if some fights are close together, I can get in multiple fights with the same Unextended Divine Favor.

gpk
08-13-2007, 08:44 PM
A Barbarian doesn't have the choice to cast a non extended rage. Try comparing 2 items in the same realm here. You know, if some fights are close together, I can get in multiple fights with the same Unextended Divine Favor.

So you can get multiple fights with the same unextended Divine Favor, by the same logic wouldnt you squeeze in even more fights with an extended divine favor for less SP cost?

2 fight for 1 unextended DF, so 20 fights for 10 minutes, 10x DF at 100 sp total.

4 fight for 2 extended DF, so 20 fights for 10 minutes, 5x DF at 75 sp total.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 08:58 PM
So you can get multiple fights with the same unextended Divine Favor, by the same logic wouldnt you squeeze in even more fights with an extended divine favor for less SP cost?

2 fight for 1 unextended DF, so 20 fights for 10 minutes, 10x DF at 100 sp total.

4 fight for 2 extended DF, so 20 fights for 10 minutes, 5x DF at 75 sp total.

I think you're using different logics.

You're forgetting about travelling times between fights. Unless of course you're the kind of player who zergs a lot.

Who are you on Khyber and what guild? I'm guessing House of Pain or The Horde.

KristovK
08-13-2007, 08:59 PM
I'll repeat what I said when this was FIRST announced...

30 years of PnP, never personally seen a Ranger or Paladin take Extend Spell, not once. I'm sure there are PnP players who run those 2 classes who take that feat, but I've never seen it. Probably because of the way the feats work in PnP compared to DDO...rather pointless taking a feat you can't make use of until at least 8th level and even then you probably wouldn't be using because you want the 2nd level slot you'd have to give up to use it. I tend to keep a PnP mindset when building and playing characters in DDO so I've never seen the point in taking Extend for my Rangers and Paladins.

Extend, like all the metamagic feats, is actually intended for full Spell Caster classes, you know, Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Bards. Rangers and Paladins aren't in that catagory and really shouldn't be wasting a feat on something to improve their casting ability. If you have, well, that's fine, it's up to you after all, but don't complain about Turbine making something work better for full Spell Caster classes and not for EVERYONE. Rangers and Paladins are COMBAT classes, not spell castering classes, so take something that actually helps your character do what those classes are designed for...combat oriented feats.

Don't like it..feel free to continue to complain..but really..you are complaining that your non-caster class isn't getting to cast as well as a full caster class...what next...you gonna complain because your Wiz/Sorc can't hit as well as the combat classes?

Yabba
08-13-2007, 09:11 PM
It isn't really cast now though is it?

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 09:14 PM
I'll repeat what I said when this was FIRST announced...
It's no more pertinent this time.


30 years of PnP, never personally seen a Ranger or Paladin take Extend Spell, not once.
And how many times have you seen them fight 250 monsters in a single dungeon session?

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 09:15 PM
Rangers and Paladins are COMBAT classes, not spell castering classes, so take something that actually helps your character do what those classes are designed for...combat oriented feats.
1. What part of "Extended Divine Favor is combat-oriented" is hard for you to understand?

2. Clerics are what you call a full-caster class, and yet this change is hurting their ability to use spells such as:
Divine Favor
Resist Energy
Shield of Faith
Nightshield
Protection From Evil

Yabba
08-13-2007, 09:18 PM
1. What part of "Extended Divine Favor is combat-oriented" is hard for you to understand?

2. Clerics are what you call a full-caster class, and yet this change is hurting their ability to use spells such as:
Divine Favor
Resist Energy
Shield of Faith
Nightshield
Protection From Evil

But the benefit we get from the reduced cost of Divine Power, Death Ward, Blade Barrier and other spells far outweighs the negatives.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 09:18 PM
2. Clerics are what you call a full-caster class, and yet this change is hurting their ability to use spells such as:
Divine Favor
Resist Energy
Shield of Faith
Nightshield
Protection From Evil

All of which really don't need to be extended.

Snike
08-13-2007, 09:18 PM
Extend was used to save mana AND have longer buffs for paladin and rangers. Now it will only be used to have longer buffs(lower level buffs which are the concern here), which will make it a feat not used in almost every build. With longer and SP saved it was a choice some builds enjoyed. Maybe not yours. Enough said.

gpk
08-13-2007, 09:20 PM
I'll repeat what I said when this was FIRST announced...

30 years of PnP, never personally seen a Ranger or Paladin take Extend Spell, not once. I'm sure there are PnP players who run those 2 classes who take that feat, but I've never seen it. Probably because of the way the feats work in PnP compared to DDO...rather pointless taking a feat you can't make use of until at least 8th level and even then you probably wouldn't be using because you want the 2nd level slot you'd have to give up to use it. I tend to keep a PnP mindset when building and playing characters in DDO so I've never seen the point in taking Extend for my Rangers and Paladins.

Extend, like all the metamagic feats, is actually intended for full Spell Caster classes, you know, Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Bards. Rangers and Paladins aren't in that catagory and really shouldn't be wasting a feat on something to improve their casting ability. If you have, well, that's fine, it's up to you after all, but don't complain about Turbine making something work better for full Spell Caster classes and not for EVERYONE. Rangers and Paladins are COMBAT classes, not spell castering classes, so take something that actually helps your character do what those classes are designed for...combat oriented feats.

Don't like it..feel free to continue to complain..but really..you are complaining that your non-caster class isn't getting to cast as well as a full caster class...what next...you gonna complain because your Wiz/Sorc can't hit as well as the combat classes?

Oh here we go with the same old tired pnp argument. Don't feel like getting into it again so I'll just go with the DDO is NOT pnp line. 30 years of pnp is NOT a year and a half of DDO. By your own admission the 2 are different, why start your post that way?

The point is they're boosting SOME classes while at the same time hurting OTHERS.
They're not leaving it AS IS, theyre making it WORSE for those OTHERS.

Tell you what though,if i may go on a tangent and perhaps exxagerate a little, for arguments sake lets assume a sorcer did not have fireball, but did have a lightning bolt spell with a much wider bolt. Said lightning bolt for all intent and purpose came close to a fireballs functionality in game but down the line devs said it would be fixed to a narrow bolt and that there was NO plan to implement fireball in the foreseeable future. What then? Should the sorc be happy that his very wide lightning bolt was fixed? After all what DnD based game doesn't have fireball?
What would your reaction be if this sorc came onto the forums and asked "hey goober, wheres my fireball? Why'd u change my LB if you're not adding FB?"
I wonder...

gpk
08-13-2007, 09:22 PM
Oh and GPK when you you get a chance send me your character name so I can send you your dragonshard.

Oh no no my friends, you're gonna have to send me 3!

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 09:23 PM
Oh and GPK when you you get a chance send me your character name so I can send you your dragonshard.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 09:26 PM
Oh here we go with the same old tired pnp argument. Don't feel like getting into it again so I'll just go with the DDO is NOT pnp line. 30 years of pnp is NOT a year and a half of DDO. By your own admission the 2 are different, why start your post that way?

The point is they're boosting SOME classes while at the same time hurting OTHERS.
They're not leaving it AS IS, theyre making it WORSE for those OTHERS.

Tell you what though,if i may go on a tangent and perhaps exxagerate a little, for arguments sake lets assume a sorcer did not have fireball, but did have a lightning bolt spell with a much wider bolt. Said lightning bolt for all intent and purpose came close to a fireballs functionality in game but down the line devs said it would be fixed to a narrow bolt and that there was NO plan to implement fireball in the foreseeable future. What then? Should the sorc be happy that his very wide lightning bolt was fixed? After all what DnD based game doesn't have fireball?
What would your reaction be if this sorc came onto the forums and asked "hey goober, wheres my fireball? Why'd u change my LB if you're not adding FB?"
I wonder...


Are those comparisons even the same?

They aren't reducing the effectiveness of your buffs.
They aren't taking away your ability to extend them.

All that's going to happen is that it will cost a few more spell points than it did before.

Exactly how many more SP's will it be for lvl 1 and lvl 2 spells will it be?

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 09:29 PM
Oh no no my friends, you're gonna have to send me 3!

How do you figure 3??

gpk
08-13-2007, 09:31 PM
Are those comparisons even the same??

The comparison aren't the same thats why i said "if i may go on a tangent and perhaps exxagerate".


They aren't reducing the effectiveness of your buffs.
They aren't taking away your ability to extend them.

All that's going to happen is that it will cost a few more spell points than it did before.

Exactly how many more SP's will it be for lvl 1 and lvl 2 spells will it be?

The comparison aren't the same thats why i said "if i may go on a tangent and perhaps exxagerate".

By taking away my ability to extend them AND save SP they ARE reducing the effectiveness of my buffs.


Are those comparisons even the same?
Exactly how many more SP's will it be for lvl 1 and lvl 2 spells will it be?

Umm seriously?

GeneralDiomedes
08-13-2007, 09:31 PM
All of which really don't need to be extended.

Resist Energy
Shield of Faith
Nightshield
Protection From Evil

Until you hit about level 11-12 they certainly do, and unless you have run the quests enough times that you can do it in your sleep, you still do.

Or .. since neither side is really arguing about the same thing .. let me put it this way .. in the course of most people's normal adventuring they will spend less mana if they were able to extend it. Nobody really _needs_ anything except food, water and shelter.

Zenako
08-13-2007, 09:33 PM
probably has 3 characters with the Feat.

from a game design and balance issue, one of the first thing to look for when trying to "balance things" is some characteristic or feat which seems to be chosen by a disproportionate percentage of characters. That tends to indicate that the feat or effect is very cost effective and not in line with other feats or skills.

My only caster who has taken Extend is my Bard since most of the spells he ends up casting are buff types or duration CC types. I never even considered them for my Ranger or Paladin, and I had other choices I deemed more useful for my Cleric.

gpk
08-13-2007, 09:34 PM
How do you figure 3??

Uh i have 3 characters hurt by the upcoming change.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 09:35 PM
GPK - Please tell me how they are taking away your ability to extend buffs?

gpk
08-13-2007, 09:40 PM
GPK - Please tell me how they are taking away your ability to extend buffs?

Yeesh.
The Spells I cast the most are Divine Favor and resists. BOth of which cost MORE extended than they did before. In the case of DF , a 1 minute spell, they're not takign away my ability to extended, they're just making it kindas pointless for me to do so now. One very valuable feat 95% wasted.

Snike
08-13-2007, 09:41 PM
GPK - Please tell me how they are taking away your ability to extend buffs?

He never said they were. He said the change would hurt. Before - longer buff AND SP saved. After - longer buffs at higher SP cost than before.

gpk
08-13-2007, 09:47 PM
He says right here in Post #70 that they are taking away his ability to extend his buffs.
Sorry my mistake, i meant my ability to extend them AND save SP. Thx for finding that 1 mistype, i've edited the post

Yabba
08-13-2007, 09:47 PM
The comparison aren't the same thats why i said "if i may go on a tangent and perhaps exxagerate".


The comparison aren't the same thats why i said "if i may go on a tangent and perhaps exxagerate".

By taking away my ability to extend them they ARE reducing the effectiveness of my buffs.



Umm seriously?


He says right here in Post #70 that they are taking away his ability to extend his buffs.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 10:05 PM
Uh i have 3 characters hurt by the upcoming change.

Too bad you only get one. The point is too prove how easily you can come across them. So let me know who gets the first one.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 10:08 PM
By taking away my ability to extend them AND save SP they ARE reducing the effectiveness of my buffs.


Really? I woulda thought that the buffs still did exactly the same thing. If it's an issue of not enough spell points, try reserving the buffs for when they are really needed, instead of zerging constantly through a dungeon with your DF activated.

It's been a while since I played a Paladin so I'll have to take your word for it. Both my Paladins made it to level 9 before I deleted them and I made Rangers instead.

What are the names of your characters. I'm on Khyber and might be able to help you out with some Sibery's Dragonshards.

My character names are listed in my Sig.

gpk
08-13-2007, 10:10 PM
LOL Zerg, if anything I'm told i should zerg MORE.

Please send all easily obtainable Dragonshards to "gpk" in game on khyber, thx.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 10:12 PM
Too bad you only get one. The point is too prove how easily you can come across them. So let me know who gets the first one.

My bet is he won't even use them. He likes the timer on his buffs.

It's a lot more SP saving to cast your DF just prior to extering combat. Just like I do with my shield clickies.

Who really needs 28min Resist Energy?

gpk
08-13-2007, 10:13 PM
I would suck it up. And next level put points into tumble.
Oh good thing there's a level cap increase in Mod5 huh (I hope you would have enought points to boost tumble to a positive rank without require you to wear a perma tumble item.)
No? Well thank god Fred the Squid respecs skills for free then.

KristovK
08-13-2007, 10:16 PM
It's no more pertinent this time.


And how many times have you seen them fight 250 monsters in a single dungeon session?

It was pertinent the first time, you simply don't want to admit that because you'd have to admit that you've done a silly thing by taking this feat on your own characters, and we all know you never make mistakes...like saying that Sorcs and Bards should be able to learn a lower level spell instead of learning a higher level spell?

Metamagics are, oddly enough, feats for spell casting oriented classes, not feats for combat oriented classes. That fact that it's NOT something you see in PnP IS relevent and very much to the point. DDO is marketed as being as close to PnP as you can get..remember? The dev team has stated that they are moving the game to be MORE in line with PnP...remember?

Rangers and Paladins already get a rather large benefit in their casting ability, it's a straight level=caster level as opposed to the PnP system, where it's level/2=caster level, not to mention the sp system allowing them a hells of a lot more castings then in PnP. Wasting a feat on Extend is a player error, not a game design error, and there's no reason they should give anyone who's wasted a feat on Extend for their Ranger or Paladin a gimme of any sort, that's a PLAYER mistake, and it's not one that the game itself ever presents as a good choice for those classes to take, so you can't blame Turbine in any way, shape or form for you making that mistake.

The new metamagic costs are great for the actual spell caster oriented classes. Yes, Extend will now cost more for 1st and 2nd level spells, but I have no problems with it for my Wizs, Bards and Clerics, especially since they have enough sp that it's not an issue to begin with even at 1st level for my Wizs and Clerics(my Bards don't get Extend until 3rd level, it's not useful prior to that). Oh..yes..your Ranger and Paladin didn't get the sp boost the Wiz/Sorc/Clerics did...how DARE THEY! Hey...skippy...wake up, Rangers and Paladin's aren't spell casters, they are combat classes who get a little divine magic to make them unique, and they can already cast a lot more then they should be. Bards..well...Bards aren't actually pure casters, so them not getting more sp is understandable, they don't get anywhere near as many spells per day as Wiz/Sorc/Cleric and they top out at 6th level spells, so I really don't expect them to be standing toe to toe on pure casting power, do you? That'd be like expecting a Ranger or Paladin to be able to cast as often as a Wiz/Sorc/Cleric wouldn't it, and that's just silly. Oh..hang on...that's kinda what you are whining about isn't it...oops.

And as for the number of monsters in a dungeon...well...welcome to the wonderful world of MMOs. Looks pretty much the same in UO, EQ, WoW, etc, etc...huh...you know what..it looked like this in NWN as well, and it used a straight PnP spells/level/day system, go figure. I'll be the first to agree that they should tone down the number of monsters in any given dungeon, but that really won't change much unless they also change the spells/level/day system so that we don't have enough magic power to run through the standard PnP setup a few times in a row before needing to rest. Of course, that would really **** off the Rangers and Paladins, after all, 1 spell per day at 4th level would really suck...do you cast resist for 4 mins or do you cast DF one time...decisions decisions.

gpk
08-13-2007, 10:16 PM
My bet is he won't even use them. He likes the timer on his buffs.

It's a lot more SP saving to cast your DF just prior to extering combat. Just like I do with my shield clickies.

Who really needs 28min Resist Energy?

LOL what I don't get a free shard to respect Extend out for Mental Toughness now? Aw I was really counting on your generous nature.
Oh don't forget to attach 10k pp with the Dragonshard.

You what's also good right now? Casting Extended DF jsut before entering combat and not having to re-cast it if the fight last longer than 1 minute or i move on to next fight AND save on SP. Shocking but true.

Who really needs 2-3 minutes more of resist energy once the unextended version runs out. No way you can take any elemental damage in that time.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 10:28 PM
It's been a while since I played a Paladin so I'll have to take your word for it. Both my Paladins made it to level 9 before I deleted them and I made Rangers instead.

Don't worry I played mine today and not once did I run out of SP or think to myself I really wish this DF was extended even though I have been reading this thread.

gpk
08-13-2007, 10:30 PM
It was pertinent the first time, you simply don't want to admit that because you'd have to admit that you've done a silly thing by taking this feat on your own characters, and we all know you never make mistakes...like saying that Sorcs and Bards should be able to learn a lower level spell instead of learning a higher level spell?

Metamagics are, oddly enough, feats for spell casting oriented classes, not feats for combat oriented classes. That fact that it's NOT something you see in PnP IS relevent and very much to the point. DDO is marketed as being as close to PnP as you can get..remember? The dev team has stated that they are moving the game to be MORE in line with PnP...remember?

Rangers and Paladins already get a rather large benefit in their casting ability, it's a straight level=caster level as opposed to the PnP system, where it's level/2=caster level, not to mention the sp system allowing them a hells of a lot more castings then in PnP. Wasting a feat on Extend is a player error, not a game design error, and there's no reason they should give anyone who's wasted a feat on Extend for their Ranger or Paladin a gimme of any sort, that's a PLAYER mistake, and it's not one that the game itself ever presents as a good choice for those classes to take, so you can't blame Turbine in any way, shape or form for you making that mistake.

The new metamagic costs are great for the actual spell caster oriented classes. Yes, Extend will now cost more for 1st and 2nd level spells, but I have no problems with it for my Wizs, Bards and Clerics, especially since they have enough sp that it's not an issue to begin with even at 1st level for my Wizs and Clerics(my Bards don't get Extend until 3rd level, it's not useful prior to that). Oh..yes..your Ranger and Paladin didn't get the sp boost the Wiz/Sorc/Clerics did...how DARE THEY! Hey...skippy...wake up, Rangers and Paladin's aren't spell casters, they are combat classes who get a little divine magic to make them unique, and they can already cast a lot more then they should be. Bards..well...Bards aren't actually pure casters, so them not getting more sp is understandable, they don't get anywhere near as many spells per day as Wiz/Sorc/Cleric and they top out at 6th level spells, so I really don't expect them to be standing toe to toe on pure casting power, do you? That'd be like expecting a Ranger or Paladin to be able to cast as often as a Wiz/Sorc/Cleric wouldn't it, and that's just silly. Oh..hang on...that's kinda what you are whining about isn't it...oops.

Oh here we go again the dirge of the pnp purist. My gosh where to begin. A Player mistake ? Hmm I can keep my spells up long for less SP as per the game design, wow what a mistake to take Extend Spell.

If you are so concerned about the pnp purity aspect in DDO why aren't you complaining about enhancements, spells slots/day vs SP, resting almsot anywhere to get stuff back, lack of mounts, lack of a large number of useful (gasp) high level paladin only spells (and other classes) etc etc.

Oh right because your Wiz, Bard, Clerics come out STRONGER at the expense of some of my characters, how convenient for you.

Tell you what use the considerable weight of your 30 years pnp experience and lead the crusade to make DDO EXACTLY like pnp, I'll sign your petition just for a larff. While you are at it though don't forget to petition for stuff that apply to more ppl that just you.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 10:32 PM
My 14 min buffs don't run out in the middle of combat.

I'm too smart for that.

The only way I could be in combat and with out resists/buffs is if they were dispelled. A good reason for not wasting SP's extending them.

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 10:42 PM
My 14 min buffs don't run out in the middle of combat.
As has already been explained a few times in this thread, DDO does not allow you to create characters starting at level 14. Instead, they start at level 1. It is wrong to pretend that levels 1-13 are undeserving of balanced gameplay.

This change increases the costs for metamagic versions of low level spells, which hurts all characters who rely on low-level spells, which includes all members of primary casting classes at low and medium level.

The fact that this nerf doesn't hurt your existing high level characters doesn't mean it's OK to hurt all the level 1-8 wizards and clerics.

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 10:45 PM
That fact that it's NOT something you see in PnP IS relevent and very much to the point. DDO is marketed as being as close to PnP as you can get..remember? The dev team has stated that they are moving the game to be MORE in line with PnP...remember?
Hilarious.

Do you really not understand that the new metamagic system is LESS like PnP, not more? In the new system, spellcasters will be rewarded for stacking as many metamagics on their high level spells as possible, because the additive cost for a multiplicative benefit means they'll get the most bang for their spellpoints that way.

When a sorc14 wants hitpoint damage on a single target, Empowered Maximized Disintegrate will be by far his best choice. Once he reaches level 16, it will instead become Empowered Maximized Polar Ray.

That is backwards from how it works in PnP: in the original game, it was your lowest level spells that were best to use with metamagic feats. To apply metamagic to spells of the highest level you can cast is completely impossible in the D&D rules.

If you like fidelity to the D&D rules, you cannot defend the new system.

gpk
08-13-2007, 10:51 PM
Don't worry I played mine today and not once did I run out of SP or think to myself I really wish this DF was extended even though I have been reading this thread.

Here's a suggestion: Go roll a 28 point Paladin on another server and let me know how it all goes, maybe it will give you a bit of perspective.
Hell make another 32 point pally and splash some rog/ftr levels in there for fun. Pretend you didn't know about the upcoming changes and make your decisions accordingly. Maybe you'll gain some pesrpective.

When you go around changing things in a game you have to ask yourself: who does this affect. If said persons are affected by a choice in skills/feats they made in the past that are now very different do I as a designer have the means ( an easy way) to give them a chance to deal with the change? If there is a way, do it! Changing behavior of feats/skills in a game down the line without giving the players a chance to "undo" is a major faux pas.

In the past for eaxample they changed evasion to not work in heavy armor. It didn't affect me 1 bit. Do i feel it should have been fixed? Absolutely! However it should have been fixed LONG ago, and not after a designer was even quoted as saying that it was likely it would remain as it was. At the very least there should have been a trade-in offer :trade in your +5 mith full plate for a +5 mithral breastplate or whatever. Luckily the Kundarak devling suit has a fairly good drop rate and many were able to trade their +5 MFP for +5 MBP or chain shirts. Still the burden should have been on the game designers not on the players.

In this case they have several options available to them, the easiest one being mail a dragonshard. Does this change affect me ? Sure it does but I'm in a much better postion to offset it than most (especially w/ all the free shards ppl are planning on mailing me). It doesn't mean I can't see how it can affect ppl besides me and argue the case.

Some ppl honestly cant see beyond their own noses and therefore aren't concerned about the implications game changes and or ommisions can have on others. No, it's much easier to do the mental zerg and post for the sake of posting and not even bothering to read or comprehend. Such is the nature of the the internet forum, so be it.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 10:58 PM
As has already been explained a few times in this thread, DDO does not allow you to create characters starting at level 14. Instead, they start at level 1. It is wrong to pretend that levels 1-13 are undeserving of balanced gameplay.

This change increases the costs for metamagic versions of low level spells, which hurts all characters who rely on low-level spells, which includes all members of primary casting classes at low and medium level.

The fact that this nerf doesn't hurt your existing high level characters doesn't mean it's OK to hurt all the level 1-8 wizards and clerics.

I have a lvl 5 Ranger. I've got 55 sp. +50 for the Wiz II trinket for TR or any of the SP adding sceptors around. I don't see it as a problem. 25min of Resist Fire if I need it. If I fall short, I carry resist potions. They're lying around all over the place. Break a barrel and you get a resist potion. Dezils Ornament works just fine too.

My lvl 8 Barbarian can't even cast resist energy but gets along fine with potions. He even makes enough plat on his own to keep potions well and truly stock piled. What do you ppl so with all of your plat?

I've rerolled my cleric 8 times. I used to take Extend at lvl 3. Mainly because extending a 2 min spell to 4 min is pointless. Now I'd wait to lvl 6. No big deal really.

How many quests lvl 5 or lower require you to have resist up on the whole party the entire time?

How many resist energy wands has your cleric/arcane sold to the barkeep?

You do know that 300gp RE potions have the same resistance as a lvl 6 cleric/arcane? I suggest you either buy some from the tent or break more boxes.

This is not a game breaker. Just play smarter and you'll be fine.

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 11:02 PM
This is not a game breaker. Just play smarter and you'll be fine.
"Not a game breaker"? That's faint praise. As already explained, the fact that a change doesn't completely break the game is insufficient to show that the change is a good idea.

Yabba
08-13-2007, 11:19 PM
"Not a game breaker"? That's faint praise. As already explained, the fact that a change doesn't completely break the game is insufficient to show that the change is a good idea.

Which classes is Extend aimed at?

Does it help those classes?

I have rangers and the changes are supposed to make my class less usefull.

I would argue that taking extend makes my class less usefull.

Too many times I see LFM's that don't include Rangers. Now I'm starting to understand why.

Too many people mis-play rangers and give them a bad rep. Taking a feat that extends their buffs over doing DPS (they are a combat class after all) is mis-playing them.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 11:26 PM
As has already been explained a few times in this thread, DDO does not allow you to create characters starting at level 14. Instead, they start at level 1. It is wrong to pretend that levels 1-13 are undeserving of balanced gameplay.

This change increases the costs for metamagic versions of low level spells, which hurts all characters who rely on low-level spells, which includes all members of primary casting classes at low and medium level.

The fact that this nerf doesn't hurt your existing high level characters doesn't mean it's OK to hurt all the level 1-8 wizards and clerics.

Sorry but he is complaining about his lvl 14 paladin not being able to cast extended DF not his lvl 1 paladin.

Serpent
08-13-2007, 11:26 PM
too all the trolls killing the very dead horse.

the change adversely affects some players the majority of those being paladins, a class that has not had a increase in power or versatility ever.

removing another playable aspect (though you might not play it) is not good or productive. this game starts at level 1 and to say well i have no problem at level 14 omits all those previous levels.

we do not all play the same we all have different builds. to argue against this because you feel that the builds affected are not worth it, is silly.

the low level nerf adversely affects many paladins and rangers and to say aw too bad deal is not supportive. this is not player vs player and the lack of respect being tossed around seems to not give that impression.

My paladin is going to be affected by this change and I frankly don't like it. I have a certain play style and that involves extended DF which lasts me through a multiple fights.

sure I would be fine with out it but thats not how I built the character and the loss of the sp to extend things after change will hamper some quests sometimes.

so instead of accusing gpk of having a bad build or me of being a blind follower, ask yourself does another players build have to be changed because Turbine deemed it necessary.

Because this does not affect you does not mean you have to support it, yet that seems how many people view things.

this change will go through all I ask and many others who play and not post will agree that paladins ned to get a little boost as well, +3 DF is only going to last so long since we are approaching the level where the idea that we get to include our non spells levels is meaningless (pnp: level 18 pally = +3 DF, level 12 pally = +2 DF).

I ask all to think about it cause calling feat choices of others dumb and then telling them to do it this way is egotistical and no productive.

Snike
08-13-2007, 11:31 PM
Well said serpent. Why are you all that don't even use the feat think it's productive to comment in a thread about the feat? Some paladin and ranger builds use it reguardless that you "know better". Low levels casting 3min buffs kinda sucks. I'm sure some people take feats for low levels and switch them out at higher levels. Like a WF taking an armor feat for low levels and swapping it out at higher levels.

I am just hoping that when the changes go through that they adjust the enhancement system to help off-balance some of the adverse effects for lower levels.

gpk
08-13-2007, 11:42 PM
Sorry but he is complaining about his lvl 14 paladin not being able to cast extended DF not his lvl 1 paladin.

Actually im "complaining" for all. The lower levels (shoulda put more emphasis on this for you, sorry you couldn't make the mental leap), the ones who don't have pop 10s ,spell storing rings, +6 wis helms, 32 point builds w +2/+3 tomes etc etc. But if you can't see the forest for the trees maybe you need to have someone point it out for you.

P.S. Checked in game mailbox, no shard.

BUpcott
08-13-2007, 11:56 PM
Here's a suggestion: Go roll a 28 point Paladin on another server and let me know how it all goes, maybe it will give you a bit of perspective.
Hell make another 32 point pally and splash some rog/ftr levels in there for fun. Pretend you didn't know about the upcoming changes and make your decisions accordingly. Maybe you'll gain some pesrpective.

Why make a new one when the one I have now does just as well and doesn't know what the future holds.


When you go around changing things in a game you have to ask yourself: who does this affect. If said persons are affected by a choice in skills/feats they made in the past that are now very different do I as a designer have the means ( an easy way) to give them a chance to deal with the change? If there is a way, do it! Changing behavior of feats/skills in a game down the line without giving the players a chance to "undo" is a major faux pas.
You can't please everyone, and its pointless for them to try. Metamagic feats are geared and designed for Sorcs, Wizards, Clerics and Bards. Don't get me wrong I am not saying paladins and rangers aren't casters and shouldn't have access to these, just that they aren't as beneficial. And when you ask yourself "Who does this affect...think of it realistically how many paladins and rangers in DDO have extend vs. Sorcs, Wizards, Bards, and Cleric.


In the past for eaxample they changed evasion to not work in heavy armor. It didn't affect me 1 bit. Do i feel it should have been fixed? Absolutely! However it should have been fixed LONG ago, and not after a designer was even quoted as saying that it was likely it would remain as it was. At the very least there should have been a trade-in offer :trade in your +5 mith full plate for a +5 mithral breastplate or whatever. Luckily the Kundarak devling suit has a fairly good drop rate and many were able to trade their +5 MFP for +5 MBP or chain shirts. Still the burden should have been on the game designers not on the players.
HAHA ummm no people made their characters knowing that it was not supposed to be that way. That would technically be consider an exploit but the devs understood it was their fault and warned that it will probably be changed; hence why it wasn't acted upon as an exploit. As to allowing an exchange for +5 Mith FP for +5 Mith BP thats laughable.


In this case they have several options available to them, the easiest one being mail a dragonshard. Does this change affect me ? Sure it does but I'm in a much better postion to offset it than most (especially w/ all the free shards ppl are planning on mailing me). It doesn't mean I can't see how it can affect ppl besides me and argue the case.

Some ppl honestly cant see beyond their own noses and therefore aren't concerned about the implications game changes and or ommisions can have on others. No, it's much easier to do the mental zerg and post for the sake of posting and not even bothering to read or comprehend. Such is the nature of the the internet forum, so be it.
I see well beyond my own nose. I and it seems other as well, understand that you made a choice to take extend, and the devs changes benefit a larger population than yourself, and you by no means deserve compensation for it.

gpk
08-14-2007, 12:16 AM
Why make a new one when the one I have now does just as well and doesn't know what the future holds.

Mental leap: A new player will have to start at level 1, with no good gear no backpack full of pp, no pop X waitin for him at some level etc etc.


HAHA ummm no people made their characters knowing that it was not supposed to be that way. That would technically be consider an exploit but the devs understood it was their fault and warned that it will probably be changed; hence why it wasn't acted upon as an exploit. As to allowing an exchange for +5 Mith FP for +5 Mith BP thats laughable.

Yes many ppl knew this wasn't how it worked in pnp, others didnt. They all knew however how it worked in DDO, and a game designer was reported as saying "it's NOT likely to change in the future". Mental Leap: We know we messed it up and many many ppl built their characters accordingly so it's unlikely to change in the future. Fast Forward 2 designers later and the exploit was fixed (I considered it one but I knew how it worked in pnp). After a year + to yank it away like that is questionable design philosophy at best.



I see well beyond my own nose. I and it seems other as well, understand that you made a choice to take extend, and the devs changes benefit a larger population than yourself, and you by no means deserve compensation for it.
I have no problem with it benefiting a larger poplation than myself, I have a problem when that benefit comes at the expense of others. It seems very little thought was given to the flip side, and this isn't the 1st time thing like this happen in DDO and it's setting a dangerous trend in the game I love, oh mental leap!

By your line of reasoning I can say ppl who make less than a certain amount of $ a year shouldn't be eligible for the same prescription drug plan or medicaire or whatever you wanna call it because they pay less taxes a year. They are in the (voiceless) minority so they matter less.

Uska
08-14-2007, 12:16 AM
While I dont see the usefulness or the space for the feat on my paladin it doesnt mean it isnt a useful tactic there would be no harm in the devs putting in an adjustment or enhancement to make up for this loss to those who do use it.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 12:23 AM
so instead of accusing gpk of having a bad build or me of being a blind follower, ask yourself does another players build have to be changed because Turbine deemed it necessary.

Not once did i accused him of having a bad build. I believe at one point i even said I am not trying to tell people how to play their builds.


Because this does not affect you does not mean you have to support it, yet that seems how many people view things.
you are right I do not have to support it, rather I have chosen to oppose it. And I hope the devs don't even consider giving out shards and any other compensation for this.

Snike
08-14-2007, 12:29 AM
And I hope the devs don't even consider giving out shards and any other compensation for this.

...

gpk
08-14-2007, 12:29 AM
And I hope the devs don't even consider giving out shards and any other compensation for this.

State your case, why not? You have come to this algonquin round table that is the DDO development forum and haven't presented any reasonable arguments to support your case. Care to englighten us with some logic?

P.S. Check your quote tag there in your last post

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 12:30 AM
Actually im "complaining" for all. The lower levels (shoulda put more emphasis on this for you, sorry you couldn't make the mental leap),
Now Now there is no need to attack me personally.

the ones who don't have pop 10s ,spell storing rings, +6 wis helms, 32 point builds w +2/+3 tomes etc etc. But if you can't see the forest for the trees maybe you need to have someone point it out for you.
Let's see don't have a POP X, don't have a ring of spell storing, don't have a +6 WIS item on my rgr or my pal, rgr is drow so clearly not a 32 point, pal is a 32 point but heck I did the grind I earned it, and haven't eaten a +2/+3 Tome on my pal, and ate a dex on my rgr.
Both sit comfortably at 20 wis and I never have a hard time managing SP.


P.S. Checked in game mailbox, no shard.
Check again.

Serpent
08-14-2007, 12:31 AM
Not once did i accused him of having a bad build. I believe at one point i even said I am not trying to tell people how to play their builds.

not once did I say you did. don't get so defensive usually people who are in the wrong are defensive

Cavalier
08-14-2007, 12:32 AM
I still don't understand how people can build around a spell or a feat or an enhancement when they know full well the the dynamic nature of this game will, in time, cause things to change, and not always to their benefit.

Paladins have been slowly knocked down since day 1; I know, my 28 point build from Day 1 is still my main character today. I was built intelligently without min/max stats. My spell points are around 490 on my build WITHOUT a POP/MAGI item. I used the enhancements at my disposal, and I ensured my WIS would be enough to cover my needs.

I judiciously use buffs and my that I mean I don't fire off Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid and Sonic resistances as soon as I enter the instance. I plan ahead and cast the needed buffs. Most times, I throw up Fire and Acid, Deathward and Virtue. I use Divine Favor only when entering a tough battle and not while running around the dungeon. I will usually use my mana pool to heal myself and thus allow the cleric to concentrate on the others.

What a concept....a well thought out, balanced character which doesn't rely on any one feat/enhancement/stat/item that can support a party of needed.

The above is explained to show how extended buffs are really not needed in DDO for Rangers (I have a L14 one). Paladins who need extend to save some SP or who are too lazy to check on their timers might have a greater issue with their builds than extend costing them 5 extra points for DF/Virtue and 3 extra points on their resists....

Primary spellcasting classes will come out winners with this new system. Their lower spells will cost more, but their higher spells will cost less. The only class which SHOULD be complaining here is the bard......as they are the ones who are hurt the most.

Serpent
08-14-2007, 12:38 AM
you are right I do not have to support it, rather I have chosen to oppose it. And I hope the devs don't even consider giving out shards and any other compensation for this.

Yet you have not given a real reason why you oppose it. It seems you oppose it because gpk does not and you two butted head. Tell me I'm wrong but that how my self and others view it. All you have really said is that it doesn't work for you and no one is telling you it should, yet you are telling others how it should be. That seems retaliatory to me. Then again I have been wrong before.

Serpent
08-14-2007, 12:45 AM
I still don't understand how people can build around a spell or a feat or an enhancement when they know full well the the dynamic nature of this game will, in time, cause things to change, and not always to their benefit.

No one said they based it around a feat it is simply part of my character that I don't want to get nefed.

If suddenly all min/maxxers got an extra ability point to balance stats what would you think cause you spread your initial stats around.

True these are not equal to each other but they are an example of a change that most would like and you would hate. How about then I laugh at you and say too bad you did that sucks to be you. Or would you prefer a hey devs modify this system so Cavalier is not hurt by it. Arguing for the Devs and the change is strange to me cause we all play together and anything that changes a toon can affect a party.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 12:49 AM
State your case, why not? You have come to this algonquin round table that is the DDO development forum and haven't presented any reasonable arguments to support your case. Care to englighten us with some logic?
Simply enough you took a feat which is designed for primary casters...you are not a primary caster.


P.S. Check your quote tag there in your last post
quote tag is probably from working with different posts; I know it was serpents post my mistake there.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 12:51 AM
5 extra points for DF/Virtue and 3 extra points on their resists.

Is that what this thread is about? LMAO.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 12:53 AM
so instead of accusing gpk of having a bad build or me of being a blind follower, ask yourself does another players build have to be changed because Turbine deemed it necessary.

You didn't accuse me directly, nor did i say you accused me. Simply said I had not.

gpk
08-14-2007, 01:00 AM
5 extra points for DF/Virtue and 3 extra points on their resists.

Is that what this thread is about? LMAO.

Oh looks like Yabba has given up. Thx for stopping by.

gpk
08-14-2007, 01:04 AM
Simply enough you took a feat which is designed for primary casters...you are not a primary caster.
Really according to whom?
The DDO.com describes it as :
Extend Spell
While this metamagic feat is active, spells with durations last twice as long, but they consume 50% more spell points.
Prerequisite: Able to cast spells

I don't see it stating anywhere its reserved for primary casters do you?

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 01:25 AM
I don't see it stating anywhere its reserved for primary casters do you?
From the perspective of the original D&D game, paladins would not take Extend Spell (or any metamagic feat), because their caster level was only 1/2 their class level.

However, DDO changed paladins (and rangers) to have full 1:1 caster level, which makes it attractive for them to use some metamagic.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 01:32 AM
No one said they based it around a feat it is simply part of my character that I don't want to get nefed.
Other than the fact that Extend is a feat.


Yet you have not given a real reason why you oppose it. It seems you oppose it because gpk does not and you two butted head. Tell me I'm wrong but that how my self and others view it. All you have really said is that it doesn't work for you and no one is telling you it should, yet you are telling others how it should be. That seems retaliatory to me. Then again I have been wrong before.
The real reason is how many Paladins and Rangers out they really have extend? *NOTE* An Arcane Archer build doesn't count.
Has nothing to do with head butting. Just discussion points of view.
You are right tho it doesn't work for me, and might for some. But regardless I still believe that extend is a waste of a feat on a paladin or ranger even at lower levels simply because it isn't needed. This change is to help primary casters, deal with it. I am not saying don't be upset. Just don't expect Turbine to hand you a shard to go change a feat you chose. You will still be getting exactly what the feat describes, just not at the cost you want.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 01:34 AM
Really according to whom?
The DDO.com describes it as :
Extend Spell
While this metamagic feat is active, spells with durations last twice as long, but they consume 50% more spell points.
Prerequisite: Able to cast spells

I don't see it stating anywhere its reserved for primary casters do you?

I did not say it was reserved for primary casters; I said that it is designed for a primary caster.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 01:36 AM
I think you'll find that's part of the issue raised here by Gpk. Caster's (wiz, sorc and cleric) recently received an increase to their spell point pool and sorcs even get double benefit from items such as Pearl's of Power or Magi items. Paladin's, Ranger's and Bard's received nothing, no increase in mana.. not even a slight one. Now metamagics have been changed as well and one of them which actually happens to be useful for all casting classes adversly affects some casting classes. I mean yeah, its helpful for the main classes which is good.. but the question is.. why discriminate against the others? If some casting classes are getting love, shouldn't there be love for all?

Wiz, sorcs, and clerics got a sp boost because the progression DDO set up for 1-10 was fine but everything past 10 was a mistake, which they fixed. That issue is irrelevant to this discussion.

Metamagics have needed to be changed for a while. The system was broken. There is nothing discriminatory about the changes. Extend will still work great for rangers, pallies and bards for spells leveled 3-6. it breaks even at 2 (as i recall) and a little more expensive for level 1's.

I bet you if you used a +2 wis tome, or a +6 wis item for your pally or ranger, it would alleviate your issue.

BTW I dont see many pallies throwing buffs on party members when entering an instance (I do see rangers do it on occasion) so lets have an honest debate and really call it for what it is, this is about pallies whining about their "uber melee buffs."

In regards to the other posts in this thread, Pallies have not been buffed because at the beginning of the game they were "OVERPOWERED." What a novel idea.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 01:37 AM
I did not say it was reserved for primary casters; I said that it is designed for a primary caster.

Shhhh logic kills.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 01:38 AM
You might be right. But I confirm my crits almost all of the time without a bloodstone.

Running out of sp's has never been a problem as it rarely happens and for the times I run low, I use Mnemonic Potions. They're a reasonbly common item.

I've never even wished I had extend. I'm even thinking of taking it off my Sorc. The only penalty for that is Haste.

especially since rangers only need the level 3-5 ones.

gpk
08-14-2007, 02:47 AM
I did not say it was reserved for primary casters; I said that it is designed for a primary caster.

My bad, I'll rephrase the question. Where does it say it is designed for a primary caster in DDO?

gpk
08-14-2007, 02:47 AM
Wiz, sorcs, and clerics got a sp boost because the progression DDO set up for 1-10 was fine but everything past 10 was a mistake, which they fixed. That issue is irrelevant to this discussion.

Metamagics have needed to be changed for a while. The system was broken. There is nothing discriminatory about the changes. Extend will still work great for rangers, pallies and bards for spells leveled 3-6. it breaks even at 2 (as i recall) and a little more expensive for level 1's.

And if you've bothered dedicated a couple of neurons to it you'd see that they break EVEN at level 3 spells. Tell me which of the awesome level 3-4 Paladin spells will i be extending and casting often? Angel Skin? Holy Sword? Again missing the point, the spell that gets cast the most is Divine favor (wonder if comabt cleric care or do they have enuff SP to not) followed by resists. How is it not discriminatory.
Also, pray tell, which uber level 4 and 5 spells can my Paladin expect to cast and extend? Which for a ranger?



I bet you if you used a +2 wis tome, or a +6 wis item for your pally or ranger, it would alleviate your issue.

I did and have and Spell Storing Ring, 125 SP item, doesn't change the issue.



BTW I dont see many pallies throwing buffs on party members when entering an instance (I do see rangers do it on occasion) so lets have an honest debate and really call it for what it is, this is about pallies whining about their "uber melee buffs."

Really I see plenty myself though I suspect you're gonna see even less in the future. Honest Debate? Try throwing out something more than a "because i said so" argument out there.



In regards to the other posts in this thread, Pallies have not been buffed because at the beginning of the game they were "OVERPOWERED." What a novel idea.
If anything paladins have become underpowered where before they had a leg to stand on balance-wise.

I wonder if you think wizzies/sorcs tossing around max empower w/ impunity under the new metamagic system will be "OVERPOWERED".
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

hennebux
08-14-2007, 02:50 AM
Is it any suprise ?
I think anyone in the know understands Pallies got and continue to get the short stick.
I have to believe we are the forgettable pure class now.
I actually have had to respec my capped pallies.
Time and again...
Meanwhile rangers get pumped
bards get pumped
rogues get juiced
clerics make out
don't get me started on arcanes ....balance?

Any bone they can throw to pure pallies I'm for.

Holy sovereign host !
How can the developers be so dense as to not see it ?
How long will it take just to get our due....?

wizzy_catt
08-14-2007, 03:22 AM
I wonder if you think wizzies/sorcs tossing around max empower w/ impunity under the new metamagic system will be "OVERPOWERED".
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

OVERPOWERED??? no no no! were still UNDERPOWERED! talking about 2k dmg firewall (mummys) 900 dmg fireballs and near 800dmg scroching rays. hmmm i still think its NOT ENOUGH DMG! give wizards more power and sorc less power since they have almost twice as much sp to make it fair.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 04:13 AM
Casters are supposed to be the higher powered people at end game. Sorry to hear you dont know whats up with D&D.

I should just be able to miracle a paladin out of existence. Or casters wish them out.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 04:19 AM
And if you've bothered dedicated a couple of neurons to it you'd see that they break EVEN at level 3 spells. Tell me which of the awesome level 3-4 Paladin spells will i be extending and casting often? Angel Skin? Holy Sword? Again missing the point, the spell that gets cast the most is Divine favor (wonder if comabt cleric care or do they have enuff SP to not) followed by resists. How is it not discriminatory.
Also, pray tell, which uber level 4 and 5 spells can my Paladin expect to cast and extend? Which for a ranger?

It doesnt matter, you are a combat class. you are not here for casting.



I did and have and Spell Storing Ring, 125 SP item, doesn't change the issue.


so you should have no issues, use a shrine like the rest of us every once in a while.




Really I see plenty myself though I suspect you're gonna see even less in the future. Honest Debate? Try throwing out something more than a "because i said so" argument out there.


I see alot of self buffing, thats about it, I wonder how far the casters and bards could get with that.



If anything paladins have become underpowered where before they had a leg to stand on balance-wise.



no things are getting to be about normal, where melee classes start to fall behind casters which is as it should be, at this level in D&D.



I wonder if you think wizzies/sorcs tossing around max empower w/ impunity under the new metamagic system will be "OVERPOWERED".
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

No. I think casters will finally be getting where they should be seeing as mobs have way overinflated hp/hd due to the overpowering of MELEE classes at the beginning of the game. (read: extra swings and to hit bonuses being out of whack)

Hvymetal
08-14-2007, 04:36 AM
It doesnt matter, you are a combat class. you are not here for casting.



so you should have no issues, use a shrine like the rest of us every once in a while.



I see alot of self buffing, thats about it, I wonder how far the casters and bards could get with that.



no things are getting to be about normal, where melee classes start to fall behind casters which is as it should be, at this level in D&D.



No. I think casters will finally be getting where they should be seeing as mobs have way overinflated hp/hd due to the overpowering of MELEE classes at the beginning of the game. (read: extra swings and to hit bonuses being out of whack)
Come now cow, you are telling me that all Paladins only self buff? All? That is how you are making it sound, and other than sounding like you have a beef with melee classes and are gleeful when one takes any kind of hit (sorry if thats not your intention but that is how it sounds) I have not seen any logical arguments as to why this should hurt some classes/builds over others. Last I checked spells are a part of the Paladin class? So yes they are a caster class in that they are able to cast spells.

Personally I didn't put extend into my Paladin, doesn't effect me either way, however I can see how it would upset folks that did as it basically invalidates a feat that some people took and are now going to have to respec out.

Riorik
08-14-2007, 06:47 AM
Obviously paladins are secondardy spellcasters- but they are a "PRIMARY" combat class; and it is through Divine Favor that they are able to fill that role.

I'm incredulous - are you suggesting that the use of DF is the only thing that allows you to hit with your Paladin and that somehow the slightly less efficient casting cost is somehow going to eliminate your use of it?

I'd even argue that should it turn out we're really talking about multi-class Paladin builds (relatively low level for the Paladin portion) - that you get what you pay for.

bigj1608
08-14-2007, 07:13 AM
you level 1-2 spellcasters shouldn't have extend spell imho.. sure you have the ability to cast spells, but is that your primary role? us spell casters have some weapon proficiencies and even tenser's transformation, but that doesn't mean we should take power attack and weapon focus does it? no. i would reccomend to all paladins and rangers to focus on their combat rather than their casting

Hvymetal
08-14-2007, 08:26 AM
you level 1-2 spellcasters shouldn't have extend spell imho.. sure you have the ability to cast spells, but is that your primary role? us spell casters have some weapon proficiencies and even tenser's transformation, but that doesn't mean we should take power attack and weapon focus does it? no. i would reccomend to all paladins and rangers to focus on their combat rather than their casting

LOL I can see how this would go over in the wiz and sorc forums with all the battlecaster builds coming out, you arcanes should focus on your primary ability of casting and leave the meleeing to the primary melee classes....

You'd be told to pound rocks and not tell others how to build and play their characters and rightly so!

Hvymetal
08-14-2007, 08:30 AM
I'm incredulous - are you suggesting that the use of DF is the only thing that allows you to hit with your Paladin and that somehow the slightly less efficient casting cost is somehow going to eliminate your use of it?

I'd even argue that should it turn out we're really talking about multi-class Paladin builds (relatively low level for the Paladin portion) - that you get what you pay for.
No what he's stating (and I didn't go this route myself, but to each his own) is that basically most the Pally spells suck, and he got extend to maximise his spell point efficiency on the ones that are used regularly.

Ziggy
08-14-2007, 08:44 AM
you level 1-2 spellcasters shouldn't have extend spell imho.. sure you have the ability to cast spells, but is that your primary role? us spell casters have some weapon proficiencies and even tenser's transformation, but that doesn't mean we should take power attack and weapon focus does it? no. i would reccomend to all paladins and rangers to focus on their combat rather than their casting
But what if i took 1 level of wizard on my WF, so i could shield myself and use repair wands?

Then i would say considering i get a free metamagic feat Extend is the only thing worth while to me.

Dont ya think?

Girevik
08-14-2007, 08:49 AM
you level 1-2 spellcasters shouldn't have extend spell imho.. sure you have the ability to cast spells, but is that your primary role? us spell casters have some weapon proficiencies and even tenser's transformation, but that doesn't mean we should take power attack and weapon focus does it? no. i would reccomend to all paladins and rangers to focus on their combat rather than their casting

My main is a level 14 Paladin, and don't completely agree with you on this one, but I do agree with your conclusion that Extend is not worthwhile.

I only have 5 selectable feats (Dwarven: 1, 3, 6, 9, 12), while I have 434 Spell Points after a rest.

It never seemed worthwhile for me to use one of my precious few feats for another feat that didn't do anything except stretch spell points.

I already have Mental Toughness for the +75 spell points it provides. If I want another there is Improved Mental Toughness available for +70 spell points. It isn't until I have both of those that Extend would have become a contender.

Divine Favor IS a primary spell, but enough fights don't make it past the 60 second mark that I am not sure that spell points are really saved by casting it. I prefer the extra 7 or so first minutes to the additional second minutes.

I do cast a lot of Resists, which is where Extend could come in handy, but with Dispells and Shrining, sometimes even that becomes iffy.

KristovK
08-14-2007, 10:22 AM
Paladins are already overpowered for what they are, and those of you complaining otherwise are really showing your true colours here. This isn't about a nerf, which the changes to the metamagic system are not, but it's about you not getting what you want, regardless of the fact that's not relevent.

Gpk, metamagics are feats specifically designed for primary spell casters, anyone who reads them can see that. Trying to deny that only makes your position look even worse. As already pointed out, you don't see metamagics being used by Paladins and Rangers in PnP, ever stop to wonder about that sparky...hmmm? Various reasons, the main being that those 2 classes are NOT primary or even secondary spell casters in PnP, they are COMBAT classes.

Now, as previously pointed out, the spell point system in DDO screws that up and the addition of giving Rangers/Paladins a 1/1 caster level screws it up even more, making those 2 classes overpowered in the casting department. The fact that they don't get all the spells from PnP doesn't change that fact, they are overpowered in the casting department.

And yes, I would love for DDO to use a straight up PnP spells/level/day system, I've asked for that more then once. I've asked for the removal of the Enhancement system as well. Let me rest once per X hours of game time regardless of there being a Shrine, I've asked for that too. I'd LOVE to see DDO move to a straight PnP conversion to real time, complete with ALL the rules, systems and quirks that would mean. I'd love to see the PnP metamagic system implemented, and I'm very aware of exactly what that would mean. The only change they've made that I actually agree with in DDO is the attack progression chain, in real time it would be far too abused if the first attack was at full AB instead of the lowest AB, a concession that must be made to make combat real time, and one that needs to be addressed as it stands NOW, as brought up in many other threads before due to how it's broken.

This isn't a nerf to non-spell oriented classes, it doesn't help them, but that doesn't make it a nerf. Extend still does exactly what it says, the cost has simply changed to be a flat number instead of scaling. Yes it will cost more to Extend 1st and 2nd level spells, but it will also cost a lot less to extend 4th and higher spells. Rangers and Paladins top out at 4th level spells, so this really doesn't HELP them, but by the same token, it doesn't hurt them either. 18 months and I've seen maybe 5 or 6 Rangers/Paladins who took Extend WITHOUT being a Forged with a level of Wiz(free metamagic feat, Extend is about the only one worth bothering with...although Eschew Materials is also a good choice, saves a little coin and inventory space). I've personally never taken Extend on my Rangers and Paladins except my Forged who actually took a level of Wiz for self repairing..and even then I've taken Eschew Materials more often then Extend, it saves space/coin and costs less sp.

Sorry, but asking for the devs to fix a problem in how YOU built your character isn't proper, they didn't do it, and they never ONCE suggest you take metamagic feats with Ranger/Paladin, so the problem exists totally with you.

And by the by...if your build is actually dependant upon casting DF to be effective in combat...enough sp ain't yer problem sparky.

Mercules
08-14-2007, 10:34 AM
I play a Paladin. I also play a WF Fighter with a splash of Wiz for self healing and wand use. My Extended Shields will end up getting more expensive. I didn't use a feat on my Paladin for Extend since I believed there were other feats more useful to me. These are my lower characters.

I don't extend DF because I don't rely on it. In most fights I go without it. When I notice a mob I am having issues hitting I fire off DF OR I use the Paladin Attack Action boost. In those long fights where I need DF and it runs out, I use up an Attack boost to cover the last few moments.

For my paladin I have a plain old mace of power three I equip when I rest. I buff a few people with Virtue and then swap over to a real weapon. Extend would be nice in those cases where I have points to burn, but in this case it will just burn a few more points.


This is my point. Yes it hurts you a tiny bit. It doesn't make you ineffective. My WF will adapt and just cast more Shield spells instead of extending them unless he expects a long fight. That is about the only time I use those spells anyway, is in a tough fight or a long one since I tend to prefer to self-heal than rely on a Cleric.

Paladin's really aren't all that bad off despite the "Nerfs" to them. I have never seen anyone say, "Well, we really wanted a Fighter or Barbarian." when a Paladin has asked to join a group. That is a pretty good sign that they didn't need to be boosted much and they haven't become weak. I think maybe they should boost up their Aura's a bit and they are boosting them, I believe, I'll have to look.

Emili
08-14-2007, 11:13 AM
I don't take meta-magic feats on most classes which are primarily a melee class, especially a open-feat starved class such as a pally. Your primary job is a melee combatant most the time... DF does not need extend. Resists? well it's nice to help save a casters sp wen you can.

My pally and ranger do not have meta-magic feats... imo feats are best spent in an offensive or defensive melee/ranged feat on a true melee.

My bard on the otherhand is a different story, she has extend and really the only place I use it is on hastes... and really the change hurts bards generally more as they're more of a general class, a jack of trades trying to fill in gaps, at 3/4 BaB they need they're spells and songs to fill the gap in melee, they also fall short of any true casting class. Before last mod my bard had more sp, to put it back I would have to specialize her... now with meta-magic changing you almost have to specialize.

Emili
08-14-2007, 11:28 AM
Casters are supposed to be the higher powered people at end game. Sorry to hear you dont know whats up with D&D.

I should just be able to miracle a paladin out of existence. Or casters wish them out.

To some extent yes and no... in PnP a caster is really considerably weaker than in DDO even at upper levels. Your're limited to the number of spells you cast a day even if you utilize the optional Sp like rule. Now you do get varying spell slots based on your primary stat but they do not cast 600hp fireballs etc... either. You must seek out varying spell components which also may be costly and possibly not available at all. When I compared a DDO sorc to a PnP sorc at 14th level I found the average potency of the spells to be near doubled and the shear number available to cast 75% more in DDO. If you had some super caster equal to the DDO caster in PnP you had a very very generous DM. DDO unlike PnP is a super high magical place.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 11:34 AM
I'm incredulous - are you suggesting that the use of DF is the only thing that allows you to hit with your Paladin and that somehow the slightly less efficient casting cost is somehow going to eliminate your use of it?
That pathetic strawman has already been addressed several times:

NO, this change doesn't make paladins useless in combat or turn them into luggage for the rest of the party. It's possible to hurt a class without totally wrecking it, which is still a bad thing.
But YES, the change weakens many paladin builds, as well as many other characters who heavily apply metamagic to low level spells.

Vordax
08-14-2007, 11:35 AM
To some extent yes and no... in PnP a caster is really considerably weaker than in DDO even at upper levels. Your're limited to the number of spells you cast a day even if you utilize the optional Sp like rule. Now you do get varying spell slots based on your primary stat but they do not cast 600hp fireballs etc... either. You must seek out varying spell components which also may be costly and possibly not available at all. When I compared a DDO sorc to a PnP sorc at 14th level I found the average potency of the spells to be near doubled and the shear number available to cast 75% more in DDO. If you had some super caster equal to the DDO caster in PnP you had a very very generous DM.

In P&P you also don't have 600hp barbs though either.

Vordax

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 11:38 AM
My pally and ranger do not have meta-magic feats... imo feats are best spent in an offensive or defensive melee/ranged feat on a true melee.
It has already been explained several times, but: in DDO right now, Extend Spell is one of the top 1-2 offensive melee/ranged feats for a Paladin.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 11:40 AM
you level 1-2 spellcasters shouldn't have extend spell imho.. sure you have the ability to cast spells, but is that your primary role?
That is misleading- the question isn't really about Extend spell... it's about any metamagic used by characters who mostly cast low-level spells. Would you claim that level 1 wizards shouldn't use any metamagic? Then why do they get that bonus feat?

The change makes applying metamagic to low-level spells more expensive than to high level spells, which obviously hurts characters who make big use of low-level spells. This includes:
Low level wizards. Mid level wizards.
Low level sorcerers. Mid level sorcerers.
Low level clerics. Mid level clerics. High level clerics.
Mid level paladins High level paladins.
Mid level rangers.


i would reccomend to all paladins and rangers to focus on their combat rather than their casting
It's a joke to have to repeat this again: A paladin who takes Extend Spell IS focusing on combat.

Zenako
08-14-2007, 11:41 AM
Let me toss this into the mix.

How do you view all the other changes to the Metamagic mechanics? I understand that extend was by far the most selected Metamagic boost of them all, since it is the only one that gave you a bargain value. If a specific character option becomes a default choice by many players, that indicates to me from a game design standpoint that something is not balanced.

That is why some weapons are considered exotic. To get that extra benefit you need to spend a feat to overcome the non-proficient penalty. If it was not exotic but merely martial, how many people would choose Bastard sword over Longsword for example? All part of game balance.

I suspect that the designers were seeing that some of the current crop of metamagics were not getting selected or used, since their perceived cost to benefit ratios were unfavorable. So in an effort to try and balance those costs one way is to change the scaling from a percentage to a surcharge. The surcharge needs to be meaningful or it is irrelevant, so it has to be more than a couple of points. If it is too high then it again becomes irrelevant from once again being too costly.

If you are making the case that you will no longer have enough mana to maintain certain spells (DF for example) 24/7 between shrines, I am not convinced. Did you keep it up even if no mobs were within sight? If so that was wasteful. I personally view DF as a boost, not a state of being, and as such only use on occasion. (Disclaimer: I do not have extend feat on my Paly and never even considered it, nor do I have it on my cleric.) It is my experience that in a great number of quests, you end up hitting a new shrine before even normal duration spells expire, or get them dispelled by death or eye tryant before then.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 11:47 AM
I understand that extend was by far the most selected Metamagic boost of them all, since it is the only one that gave you a bargain value.
That's quite true. And as already explained many times: the new metamagic gives a bargain value to high-level spells with ANY of the feats, but an inflated cost to low-level spells.
Current system: effect-per-spellpoint is balanced across high and low level spells
New system: effect-per-spellpoint increases with higher-level spells.

Obviously, this means the new system relatively hurts casters of low-level spells. This will even hurt the level 14 Battle Clerics who cast Extended Divine Favor 24/7.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 11:53 AM
In regards to the other posts in this thread, Pallies have not been buffed because at the beginning of the game they were "OVERPOWERED." What a novel idea.
It is quite true that DDO's paladins have experienced multiple nerfs over time. This was intentional.
The +5 Divine Favor damage bonus? Way too strong: nerfed.
The +2 AC aura from just 1 pally level? Too strong: nerfed.

But the fact that the new metamagic change nerfs the combat duration of paladins by 24% is probably unintentional. It's likely that the devs were picturing the new metamagic system as only a buff for high-level arcane casters, and didn't even think about what it would do to paladins (or other users of low-level metamagic spells). Thus, it is very appropriate to point this out for them.

A change such as I suggested here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117675) would remove the nerf to low-level spells, while keeping the boost to high-level magic. Of course, it's difficult to know what the devs intended with the change, because they don't tell us.

GeneralDiomedes
08-14-2007, 12:01 PM
Is anyone disputing that applying certain Metamagics to level 1 and 2 spells costs more? I don't think so.

However, nobody has yet to explain why this is the wrong thing to do, other than you seem to have a personal issue with your Paladin being 'nerfed'. Higher level casters benefit immensely, offensive casters benefit immensely, and for anyone with a lick of strategy in their bones, lower level casters will not be hurt. Instead of being expected to buff the entire party with buffs they will never use, buffs will be applied selectively based on need and circumstance. That in itself is enough of a benefit for me.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 12:01 PM
However, nobody has yet to explain why this is the wrong thing to do, other than you seem to have a personal issue with your Paladin being 'nerfed'.
False. It has been explained over seven times so far. It is a bad thing to do because it will weaken characters who use metamagic on low level spells. The OP is wrong to single out paladins and rangers, because it also hurts mid-level sorcs, wizards, and clerics: anyone who doesn't have the high-level spells yet, but still wants to use metamagic. I will not elaborate on that again, because you could simply scroll up if you're willing to read the details.

Vua
08-14-2007, 12:02 PM
That is misleading- the question isn't really about Extend spell... it's about any metamagic used by characters who mostly cast low-level spells. Would you claim that level 1 wizards shouldn't use any metamagic? Then why do they get that bonus feat?

The change makes applying metamagic to low-level spells more expensive than to high level spells, which obviously hurts characters who make big use of low-level spells. This includes:
Low level wizards. Mid level wizards.
Low level sorcerers. Mid level sorcerers.
Low level clerics. Mid level clerics. High level clerics.
Mid level paladins High level paladins.
Mid level rangers.


It's a joke to have to repeat this again: A paladin who takes Extend Spell IS focusing on combat.

What you don't get is that it's balanced out for casters when using their higher level spells. You lose a bit here and you gain a bit there. While casters are losing a little bit on the low end spells they are gaining a ton on the high end. I understand that you lose some SP as a low level caster but you aren't supposed to be low level forever. Gain a couple levels and you WIN.

I have a paladin and I have a ranger(that took a level of wizzie and has extend) and this doesn't really affect our classes much, if it all. It will cost me 3 extra spell points to cast an extended barkskin if I want to. I should start crying now. Does it come back to divine favor again?

I think it's great to extend divine favor so I can chase archers and casters around. It will still be on when I finish casting restorations and wand whipping the barb back to full health. I cast an extended divine favor so I can kill the last mob left alive and then spend a minute and a half finding the next fight so that first swing I get will be at +3. Then I slip behind the Wizard and he gets hit so I don't fail a concentration check while casting my next extended divine favor that will be ready to go just as the fight ends again.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 12:04 PM
What you don't get is that it's balanced out for casters when using their higher level spells.
Wrong. I get that, but it doesn't matter. I have explained why too many times for me to repeat it again for someone who doesn't read what's already here.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 12:11 PM
I already have Mental Toughness for the +75 spell points it provides. If I want another there is Improved Mental Toughness available for +70 spell points. It isn't until I have both of those that Extend would have become a contender.
Under the current system, Extend IS better than Mental Toughness or Improved Mental Toughness for a paladin.

Vua
08-14-2007, 12:14 PM
Wrong. I get that, but it doesn't matter. I have explained why too many times for me to repeat it again for someone who doesn't read what's already here.

I read. I comprehend. I just don't agree with you. I think you ****ed away a feat by taking extend on your pally (just like I did with my ranger) so you can cast useless extended divine favors. It's a waste of spell points.

Smile. It's not so bad. It's just a game.

Have a nice day.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 12:17 PM
But what if i took 1 level of wizard on my WF, so i could shield myself and use repair wands?
Then i would say considering i get a free metamagic feat Extend is the only thing worth while to me.
Dont ya think?
That's a good point. Suppose a warforged fighter/barb wants to take a caster level so he can use repair wands. How does he choose between wizard and sorc?

Both classes give him the same wand usage, so it's a question of which grants other spells that are more useful. The main level 1 spell helpful to a warrior is Shield, for +4 AC with a two-handed weapon.

Under the current system, a level 1 wizard gets more total time Shielded, because his free metamagic lets him Extend it cheaply. But in the new system, Extended Shield uses more spellpoints per second, so the sorcerer would get more Shield time, because he has more total mana.

Thus, once this change goes through, it will be fair to send a free class-respec token to every Warforged fighter or barbarian with 1 level of wizard.

Ziggy
08-14-2007, 12:19 PM
That's a good point. Suppose a warforged fighter/barb wants to take a caster level so he can use repair wands. How does he choose between wizard and sorc?

Both classes give him the same wand usage, so it's a question of which grants other spells that are more useful. The main level 1 spell helpful to a warrior is Shield, for +4 AC with a two-handed weapon.

Under the current system, a level 1 wizard gets more total time Shielded, because his free metamagic lets him Extend it cheaply. But in the new system, Extended Shield uses more spellpoints per second, so the sorcerer would get more Shield time, because he has more total mana.

Thus, once this change goes through, it will be fair to send a free class-respec token to every Warforged fighter or barbarian with 1 level of wizard.
Well if the WF wants extend they would go wizard as its free. and the sorcerer would spend more points on charisma to be able to cast spells.(they start with a 6)
Ive got a 14 INT with a power 8 helm, and have about 250 SP's. Even wearing adamantine armor with its 35% failure i dont run out of spell points between shrines

Rekker
08-14-2007, 12:19 PM
14 Paladin
14 Ranger

Both have Extend.

I don't see the point about not extending because they will get debuffed any ways. I only see this happen in a few quests. Lay down extended buffs at the entrance of PoP, save the beholder for last and the buffs last till the end. Or extended buff a whole 12 man raid with Barkskin at the start of the Reaver. Saves the Cleric/Wiz from having to do that job so they can focus their SP on other more important things. Comes in real handy now, but not after the next update. Most of us with higher level toons have had them for a long time prior to this announced change. We didn't have the option of making them after the update. If it goes through as planned I would love to change out Extend, don't know if I will though.

Girevik
08-14-2007, 12:24 PM
Under the current system, Extend IS better than Mental Toughness or Improved Mental Toughness for a paladin.

I think the accuracy of this statement is based heavily on the play style of the Paladin and his group.

If you play a Paladin in a group that knows exactly where every critter is in every quest you enter, and basically perma-haste-sprint from fight to fight, you may be right.

If, however, you play a Paladin in a group that generally dungeon crawls through most content, and has lots of between fight time, then individual encounter length needs to be considered. If most of your encounters last less than one-minute and are followed by greater than one-minute treks to the next encounter, then two-minute DF's are going to add very little to your combat effectiveness. In that case, the ability to cast 7 more DF's is going to be of greater use than less, but longer, DF's.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 01:52 PM
If you play a Paladin in a group that knows exactly where every critter is in every quest you enter, and basically perma-haste-sprint from fight to fight, you may be right.

If, however, you play a Paladin in a group that generally dungeon crawls through most content, and has lots of between fight time, then individual encounter length needs to be considered.
No. That is completely backwards.

A group that rushes forward faster has LESS need for extended buffs, because they have a greater chance of reaching and finishing battles before the spells expire. It is someone who moves slowly and takes his time that will benefit more from extending the spells.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 01:57 PM
You have yet to explain how this is a bad thing for the game as a whole.
I should not need to justify that making low-level casters weaker is a bad thing.

GeneralDiomedes
08-14-2007, 01:58 PM
False. It has been explained over seven times so far. It is a bad thing to do because it will weaken characters who use metamagic on low level spells. The OP is wrong to single out paladins and rangers, because it also hurts mid-level sorcs, wizards, and clerics: anyone who doesn't have the high-level spells yet, but still wants to use metamagic. I will not elaborate on that again, because you could simply scroll up if you're willing to read the details.

You have yet to explain how this is a bad thing for the game as a whole. So far we have explained that it will cost more to Extend level 1 and level 2 spells.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 02:07 PM
and who really extends level 1 and 2 spells at low levels. not I and i have 2 clerics a sorc and a bard.
1. If you'd pay a little attention, you'd see that the change harms users of ALL metamagic on low-level spells.

2. A low-level cleric who doesn't Extend Bless, Divine Favor, and Shield of Faith is seriously nerfing his party.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 02:07 PM
and who really extends level 1 and 2 spells at low levels. not I and i have 2 clerics a sorc and a bard.

GeneralDiomedes
08-14-2007, 02:12 PM
1. If you'd pay a little attention, you'd see that the change harms users of ALL metamagic on low-level spells.

2. A low-level cleric who doesn't Extend Bless, Divine Favor, and Shield of Faith is seriously nerfing his party.

Like any good systematic change, it affects everyone. All low level parties will have to adjust.

Ziggy
08-14-2007, 02:17 PM
and who really extends level 1 and 2 spells at low levels. not I and i have 2 clerics a sorc and a bard.
I extend my level 1 wizard/4 fighter/9 barb's shield.:D

but like i said with 250 spell points or so, ive yet to run out between shrines

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 02:18 PM
Like any good systematic change, it affects everyone. All low level parties will have to adjust.
1. This change makes certain actions more costly than they were before.
2. Therefore, characters who make heavy use of those actions are harmed. Their players will be unhappy.

The burden of proof is on you to show that it improves the game to nerf those characters. So, go ahead. Explain why paladins with Extend Divine Favor are overpowered, and why level 2 wizards with Empowered Burning Hands are overpowered. Let's see it.

GeneralDiomedes
08-14-2007, 02:26 PM
1. This change makes certain actions more costly than they were before.
2. Therefore, characters who make heavy use of those actions are harmed. Their players will be unhappy.

The burden of proof is on you to show that it improves the game to nerf those characters. So, go ahead. Explain why paladins with Extend Divine Favor are overpowered, and why level 2 wizards with Empowered Burning Hands are overpowered. Let's see it.

It benefits mid to high level casters and in this game I believe that's what is more important to the game as a whole. That's where most people's playtime is spent. We have 6 other spell levels to rejoice in applying lower cost metamagics to.

I have never once said it didn't hurt certain styles of lower level casters (i.e. my level 4 CC Sorc won't be affected at all), but this balances the metamagic system for pure casters IMO.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 02:33 PM
It benefits mid to high level casters and in this game I believe that's what is more important to the game as a whole. That's where most people's playtime is spent.
The idea that high-level casters need MORE power from their high-level damaging spells is not nearly self-evident. Such a claim would require serious justification.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 03:27 PM
It has already been explained several times, but: in DDO right now, Extend Spell is one of the top 1-2 offensive melee/ranged feats for a Paladin.

There are plenty of better feats than extend, and I really don't see how you can call this an offensive melee/ranged feat.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 03:35 PM
A change such as I suggested here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117675) would remove the nerf to low-level spells, while keeping the boost to high-level magic. Of course, it's difficult to know what the devs intended with the change, because they don't tell us.

Use that thread to complain about the low level casters being hurt by the change. This one is titled "Do the devs realize the new EXTEND spell change HURTS PALADINS AND RANGERS". Seems to be a pretty specific title to me.


False. It has been explained over seven times so far. It is a bad thing to do because it will weaken characters who use metamagic on low level spells. The OP is wrong to single out paladins and rangers, because it also hurts mid-level sorcs, wizards, and clerics: anyone who doesn't have the high-level spells yet, but still wants to use metamagic. I will not elaborate on that again, because you could simply scroll up if you're willing to read the details.

Even if the OP was wrong to single out paladins and rangers in this thread that is was the discussion is about, a rgr or pal using extend. I am not saying that caster (the primary ones) aren't getting a little kick in the shins, But it really isn't going to hurt them that much. Oh no people will have to become self sufficient. Extending resists at the low levels is pointless go buy a pot that is a 10 resist. Heck I usually have house P favor before casters get 20 resists, and those last 30 mins.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 03:46 PM
That's a good point. Suppose a warforged fighter/barb wants to take a caster level so he can use repair wands. How does he choose between wizard and sorc?

Both classes give him the same wand usage, so it's a question of which grants other spells that are more useful. The main level 1 spell helpful to a warrior is Shield, for +4 AC with a two-handed weapon.

Under the current system, a level 1 wizard gets more total time Shielded, because his free metamagic lets him Extend it cheaply. But in the new system, Extended Shield uses more spellpoints per second, so the sorcerer would get more Shield time, because he has more total mana.

Thus, once this change goes through, it will be fair to send a free class-respec token to every Warforged fighter or barbarian with 1 level of wizard.

That and they probably didn't put points into their CHA,and therefore wizard is the only real choice.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 04:20 PM
14 Paladin
14 Ranger

Both have Extend.

I don't see the point about not extending because they will get debuffed any ways. I only see this happen in a few quests. Lay down extended buffs at the entrance of PoP, save the beholder for last and the buffs last till the end. Or extended buff a whole 12 man raid with Barkskin at the start of the Reaver. Saves the Cleric/Wiz from having to do that job so they can focus their SP on other more important things. Comes in real handy now, but not after the next update. Most of us with higher level toons have had them for a long time prior to this announced change. We didn't have the option of making them after the update. If it goes through as planned I would love to change out Extend, don't know if I will though.

Sorry but not everyone needs the AC in reaver, depending on the method you use. And even then the reaver only like 20-30 mins. So only a few people would need extended buffs. Plus theres that nice lil charge that gives spell points back so even if you didn't extend them it is easy enough to have the SP to cast a new set of non extended mid way through. Displacement is more important than barkskin in there I would lean to say.

Impaqt
08-14-2007, 04:51 PM
Did you all use your Free Dragonmark respec?

I still dont see trhe reason to Swap out Extend if you feel you need the double duration.. but hey...

gpk
08-14-2007, 05:43 PM
Gah having some PC problems which I won't get into, please continue the discussion, it's a fascinating read (in between crashes).

On the plus side I was able to login and found a dragonshard in the mail with 10k pp from someone named Bupcott. I'll find a worthy recipient for both (I won't keep emdon't worry), send more, plenty of needy paladins out there.

gpk

gpk
08-14-2007, 05:45 PM
There are plenty of better feats than extend, and I really don't see how you can call this an offensive melee/ranged feat.

Since you refuse to accept that Divine Favor is an offensive combat spell, please enlighten us with some better feats to take at level 6.

gpk
08-14-2007, 05:52 PM
Use that thread to complain about the low level casters being hurt by the change. This one is titled "Do the devs realize the new EXTEND spell change HURTS PALADINS AND RANGERS". Seems to be a pretty specific title to me.

Even if the OP was wrong to single out paladins and rangers in this thread that is was the discussion is about, a rgr or pal using extend. I am not saying that caster (the primary ones) aren't getting a little kick in the shins, But it really isn't going to hurt them that much. Oh no people will have to become self sufficient. Extending resists at the low levels is pointless go buy a pot that is a 10 resist. Heck I usually have house P favor before casters get 20 resists, and those last 30 mins.

There were other discussions on the matter I chose to focus THIS discussion on Paladin (and rangers) because even at the high levels the vast majority of spells being cast are level 1 and 2.

LOL self sufficiency has NOTHIGN to do with it. But since you're such a nice guy tell you what, you can help all those ppl get house P favor to get the buffs, while you're at it tell the wizard, clerics NOT to waste a feat on extend, don't extend those low level buffs i mean they should be more self sufficient after all, it's their fault for taking a pointless metamagic feat to be used at the lower levels. Don't forget to also send them $ for pots and visits to Fingalar.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 05:56 PM
Since you refuse to accept that Divine Favor is an offensive combat spell, please enlighten us with some better feats to take at level 6.

toughness.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 05:56 PM
1. This change makes certain actions more costly than they were before.
2. Therefore, characters who make heavy use of those actions are harmed. Their players will be unhappy.

The burden of proof is on you to show that it improves the game to nerf those characters. So, go ahead. Explain why paladins with Extend Divine Favor are overpowered, and why level 2 wizards with Empowered Burning Hands are overpowered. Let's see it.

why isnt the burden of proof on you. Where is your empirical evidence?

Yabba
08-14-2007, 05:59 PM
Break a barrel, get a resist pot. Not that big a deal.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 06:04 PM
why isnt the burden of proof on you
Because of existential inertia: the proponents of a change have the responsibility to demonstrate that it has some benefit.

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:05 PM
toughness.

Really why? Make your case.
I can say "Slicing Blow" is a better feat that toughness and leave it at that. I have't made my case have I? I'm just saying "it's better because I say it is"

Yabba
08-14-2007, 06:06 PM
Post your build so we can see what you took and in what order.

Until then, it's difficult to offer adice.

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:09 PM
Post your build so we can see what you took and in what order.

Until then, it's difficult to offer adice.

Irrelevant, let's assume I didn't already take toughness before( I didn't )you said Tougness is a better level 6 feat than Extend, explain how.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:10 PM
Because of existential inertia: the proponents of a change have the responsibility to demonstrate that it has some benefit.

Well since Turbine is the proponent I guess you will have to ask them. :eek: :D

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:10 PM
Post your build so we can see what you took and in what order.

Until then, it's difficult to offer adice.

QFT

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:13 PM
Really why? Make your case.
I can say "Slicing Blow" is a better feat that toughness and leave it at that. I have't made my case have I? I'm just saying "it's better because I say it is"

Because pallies are lacking about 15 stat points to make them gods (due to needing too many stats) and I am sure your con is not that high, so 16 extra hp could be of use to you.

Of course not knowing your build really does put a damper on this.......

Balls in your court.

P.S. I wouldnt have sent you the shard and the 10k plat (even though I could easily afford both) just because of your general attacking (tone) of your posts.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 06:14 PM
Irrelevant, let's assume I didn't already take toughness before( I didn't )you said Tougness is a better level 6 feat than Extend, explain how.

Weapon Focus Slashing

Impaqt
08-14-2007, 06:14 PM
Because of existential inertia: the proponents of a change have the responsibility to demonstrate that it has some benefit.

Really? I dont think thats true at all..

Proponents of a change simply have to accept it... But as far as Proving why I thik its good....

Extended Blade Barrier
Extended Greater Command
Extended Divine Power
Extended Recitation
Extended Symbol SPells

Those are spells that have a Much larger impact on the success of a mission over any buff available.... and all of those now cost less extended.

The fact that a Rangers Barkskin lasts 6 Minutes Instead of 12 or a Fire resists is 14 Minutes instead of 28 is of no consequece.
Drink a Pot.... Get a Greater Resist Item.... Use a CLicky.. or -gasp- recast the spell when you need it.

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:18 PM
Because pallies are lacking about 15 stat points to make them gods (due to needing too many stats) and I am sure your con is not that high, so 16 extra hp could be of use to you.

Of course not knowing your build really does put a damper on this.......

Balls in your court.

P.S. I wouldnt have sent you the shard and the 10k plat (even though I could easily afford both) just because of your general attacking (tone) of your posts.

That's it ? 16 more HP is better than having +3 ab/dmg for longer? Surely you can do better than. Assuming non tripping mobs, would you tell a fighter to swap out his/her +6 str item 25% of combat time for a improved false life item?

Yabba
08-14-2007, 06:18 PM
That's it ? 16 more HP is better than having +3 ab/dmg for longer? Surely you can do better than. Assuming non tripping mobs, would you tell a fighter to swap out his/her +6 str item 25% of combat time for a improved false life item?

Well. My Ranger wears a +5 Str Item (Str 28) and a +5 Con Item (Con 24) and a Greater False Life item (HP 311) all at the same time.

Why would I need to take one off for the other?

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:20 PM
Weapon Focus Slashing

+1 AB full time vs losing out on +3AB/DMG 25% of the time. Go on run through all the feats if you have to.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:20 PM
1. This change makes certain actions more costly than they were before.

and makes others cheaper.



2. Therefore, characters who make heavy use of those actions are harmed. Their players will be unhappy.

This is assumption and not fact.



The burden of proof is on you to show that it improves the game to nerf those characters. So, go ahead. Explain why paladins with Extend Divine Favor are overpowered, and why level 2 wizards with Empowered Burning Hands are overpowered. Let's see it.


No. again incorrect logic. The burden is on Turbine, not any player. I can agree with the sentiment of what Turbine is doing because I can, as you can choose not to agree.

Paladins will be able to cast extended Divine Favor in the future, so they arent limiting their ability to do it, just how much. Also, lets get to the issue here. Pallies will be able to have just as many minutes of Divine favor as they do right now. Extend was a benefit, it wont be anymore, too bad.

The real issue is Pallies aren't even supposed to get the +3 from it yet, thats what I would like to see fixed. They aren't supposed to get the +3 until level 16.

I don't think there is a spell cost difference now with empower at that low of a level, but i could be wrong there.

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:21 PM
Well. My Ranger wears a +5 Str Item (Str 28) and a +5 Con Item (Con 24) and a Greater False Life item (HP 311) all at the same time.

Why would I need to take one off for the other?

Because dropping Extend for Toughness is like dropping your strength some of the time for 16 more SP full time. How is toughness then better than Extend ?

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:22 PM
+1 AB full time vs losing out on +3AB/DMG 25% of the time. Go on run through all the feats if you have to.

Pallies are not supposed to get +3 AB/Dmg from that spell until level 16. look it up.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 06:23 PM
+1 AB full time vs losing out on +3AB/DMG 25% of the time. Go on run through all the feats if you have to.

How often do you burn through your 500+ sp's?

The whole argument is, if you use the spell smarter. You'll have it up as for as long as you need it.

I don't see you garnishing much support. 3 posters or was it 4?

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:24 PM
That's it ? 16 more HP is better than having +3 ab/dmg for longer? Surely you can do better than. Assuming non tripping mobs, would you tell a fighter to swap out his/her +6 str item 25% of combat time for a improved false life item?

No, because my non melee cleric wears BOTH

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:25 PM
How often do you burn through your 500+ sp's?

The whole argument is, if you use the spell smarter. You'll have it up as for as long as you need it.

I don't see you garnishing much support. 3 posters or was it 4?

Skriting around the issie and given up again have we? At least your post this time wasn't "go break a barrel"

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:26 PM
Because dropping Extend for Toughness is like dropping your strength some of the time for 16 more SP full time. How is toughness then better than Extend ?

strength you are not supposed to have?

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:27 PM
No, because my non melee cleric wears BOTH

Ah but you must drop +3 AB/DMG 25% of the time for 16 more HP permanently, that's what you told me to do. How is the 16 more HP better ?

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:27 PM
Skriting around the issie and given up again have we? At least your post this time wasn't "go break a barrel"

The issue is, is it a nerf, no, but thank you for calling attention to a bug in the game, I must let Turbine know.....

You know I may have to call for a round of nerfage on the paladin, because they are obviously broken right now, gaining full spell levels.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 06:27 PM
No, because my non melee cleric wears BOTH

I think what we are dealing with, is a couple of people with p@nis envy. They think to succeed in the mission you have to top the almighty kill count, and they are sick of seeing Dwarven Rangers beating them by more than half again.

That's what this is all about now isn't it?

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:28 PM
Ah but you must drop +3 AB/DMG 25% of the time for 16 more HP permanently, that's what you told me to do. How is the 16 more HP better ?

No I dont HAVE to do anything because I am not whining on the forums about how my character is being nerfed because a level 1 spell costs 5 more spell points when I extend it.

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:29 PM
No I dont HAVE to do anything because I am not whining on the forums about how my character is being nerfed because a level 1 spell costs 5 more spell points when I extend it.

You told me 16 HP ALL of the time is better than having +3 DMG/AB for LONGER in DDO, I want you to explain to me why.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:29 PM
Skirting around the issue AGAIN. Please read up on those PnP vs DDO posts in this and other thread I'ts really tiring having to repeat everything for you since you refuse to do the brainwork.

DDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!


My divine favor extended costs 5 more spell points now, even though I am getting more bonuses from all around casting than I should at the cost of my holy mount.......

Thats it, I am going to cancel.

P.S. I have a pally, and you know what, the change does not bother me.

/ninja of DdOOM

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:29 PM
Pallies are not supposed to get +3 AB/Dmg from that spell until level 16. look it up.

Skirting around the issue AGAIN. Please read up on those PnP vs DDO posts in this and other thread I'ts really tiring having to repeat everything for you since you refuse to do the brainwork.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:30 PM
I think what we are dealing with, is a couple of people with p@nis envy. They think to succeed in the mission you have to top the almighty kill count, and they are sick of seeing Dwarven Rangers beating them by more than half again.

That's what this is all about now isn't it?

They got something, generally Gimpster is a better poster than this. I actually tend to agree with alot he says, generally. Too bad he is wrong here.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 06:30 PM
Skriting around the issie and given up again have we? At least your post this time wasn't "go break a barrel"

You didn't answer the question.

You claim you will be less effective if you can't keep up DF because extended ones will cost more SP than before and you won't have enough sp's to cope.

I think asking how often you run out of sp's goes straight to the heart of the issue. Don't you?

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:33 PM
You told me 16 HP ALL of the time is better than having +3 DMG/AB for LONGER in DDO, I want you to explain to me why.

No I said it was better than having extend, huge difference.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:34 PM
You didn't answer the question.

You claim you will be less effective if you can't keep up DF because extended ones will cost more SP than before and you won't have enough sp's to cope.

I think asking how often you run out of sp's goes straight to the heart of the issue. Don't you?

You are confusing the situation with logic. Please refrain from this in the future.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 06:34 PM
Since you refuse to accept that Divine Favor is an offensive combat spell, please enlighten us with some better feats to take at level 6.

I never said it wasn't an offensive spell; I said extend is not an offensive feat.

Since I don't know your build I can't say which feat would have been available to you but I just list a few. And yes I am aware that some have certain prereqs but thats part of planning a build out. But as I have said earlier I am not here to judge your build; just that you don't deserve compensation for the change to metamagic feats.
So feats available at lvl6 (depending on your build):
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (opens Power Critical)
Sap (have seen some fighters use this and effectively; specially since there is no save)
Skill Focus: UMD (if a umd build)
Stunning Blow (nice on a dwarf pally with dwarven tactics)
Toughness

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:36 PM
No I said it was better than having extend, huge difference.

Extend gives me +3 DMG /AB during more fights, I don't see how much clearer I can make it.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 06:42 PM
This is assumption and not fact.
Wrong. That is 100% undeniably factual. Anyone who disagrees with it has demonstrated insufficient capability to deserve any more free education from me.


No. again incorrect logic. The burden is on Turbine, not any player. I can agree with the sentiment of what Turbine is doing because I can, as you can choose not to agree.
Wrong. The burden goes to anyone who wants to demonstrate that this change is an improvement. You've decided to attempt that- to succeed, you will need to get to work.


The real issue is Pallies aren't even supposed to get the +3 from it yet, thats what I would like to see fixed. They aren't supposed to get the +3 until level 16.
Wrong. That is a separate issue, but an interesting one. All the melee classes in DDO got a damage boost over their PnP basis:
Fighters: Fighter's Strength III, Critical Accuracy IV
Barbarians: Power Rage II, Critical Rage II
Ranger: Favored Damage, Power Attack with light weapons
Paladins: 1:1 caster level for Divine Favor

Reducing paladins back to the 1:2 caster level from D&D could be acceptable if the other warrior classes had their extra damage boosts nerfed away from them. Obviously, that will never happen.


I don't think there is a spell cost difference now with empower at that low of a level, but i could be wrong there.
Correct. You are wrong there.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:43 PM
Extend gives me +3 DMG /AB during more fights, I don't see how much clearer I can make it.

which you shouldnt get due to an improper paladin buff.

That being said, when a buff comes for casters you shouldn't really be complaining especially since it is caster related that you are improperly buffed to.

You are looking at this all wrong, now you have a free feat to use on whatever you want since extend won't provide you with any benefit anymore. or will it still provide you with enough benefit and you just want to rant about 5 sp?

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 06:43 PM
But as I have said earlier I am not here to judge your build; just that you don't deserve compensation for the change to metamagic feats.
That much is true: passing out feat respecs to impacted characters would be a bad way to address the problem. Much better would be to fix the problem at its source, and not nerf low-level metamagic.


So feats available at lvl6 (depending on your build):
Combat Expertise
CE? Are you going for pure comedy here?

gpk
08-14-2007, 06:45 PM
I never said it wasn't an offensive spell; I said extend is not an offensive feat.

Since I don't know your build I can't say which feat would have been available to you but I just list a few. And yes I am aware that some have certain prereqs but thats part of planning a build out. But as I have said earlier I am not here to judge your build; just that you don't deserve compensation for the change to metamagic feats.
So feats available at lvl6 (depending on your build):
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (opens Power Critical)
Sap (have seen some fighters use this and effectively; specially since there is no save)
Skill Focus: UMD (if a umd build)
Stunning Blow (nice on a dwarf pally with dwarven tactics)
Toughness

Well the whole point is I'm being told it's my fault for being such a noob for taking Extend , I'm also being told there are any number of feats BETTER that my noob caracter should have taken and 1 of them I'm told is toughness.

I'm simply asking them to prove what they say.
Instead I get "doooooooom" , "zomg jealous of my uber dorf ranger" etc etc.

LOL too funny!

Clearly they have given up , thanks for playing!

Yabba
08-14-2007, 06:46 PM
Come on. Tell me how often you run out of SP's?

That's the real issue isn't it. You can't keep DF up if you run out of SP's so you take extend to make a saving.

But if you never run out of SP's, you don't need to make the saving. Excess SP's don't carry over from shrine to shrine or quest to quest.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:46 PM
Wrong. That is 100% undeniably factual. Anyone who disagrees with it has demonstrated insufficient capability to deserve any more free education from me. so the game is no longer fun because extend costs 5 more spell points for level 1 spells and 3 more spell points for level 2. Gotcha.

Can I have your stuff, since the game wont be fun anymore?



Wrong. The burden goes to anyone who wants to demonstrate that this change is an improvement. You've decided to attempt that- to succeed, you will need to get to work.

No I said I like the change, because I play 3 of the 4 classes this is to improve. Sorceror, bard, and 2 clerics.



Wrong. That is a separate issue, but an interesting one. All the melee classes in DDO got a damage boost over their PnP basis:
Fighters: Fighter's Strength III, Critical Accuracy IV
Barbarians: Power Rage II, Critical Rage II
Ranger: Favored Damage, Power Attack with light weapons
Paladins: 1:1 caster level for Divine Favor

I am all for the nerfing of overpowered melee classes. Have been from the start. What they did to BAB/attacks is a disservice to the game and has caused a. the monty haul problem, and b. the needing of significantly making mobs more powerful which makes some spells (and turning) almost useless.



Reducing paladins back to the 1:2 caster level from D&D could be acceptable if the other warrior classes had their extra damage boosts nerfed away from them. Obviously, that will never happen.
I dunno, are pallies an offensive (as opposed to defensive, not in an offending way) class or a defensive one? As I recall pallies get other boosts that are defensive in nature that other classes dont get.



Correct. You are wrong there.

It has happened every once in a while, it doesnt bother me.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:49 PM
Well the whole point is I'm being told it's my fault for being such a noob for taking Extend , I'm also being told there are any number of feats BETTER that my noob caracter should have taken and 1 of them I'm told is toughness.

I'm simply asking them to prove what they say.
Instead I get "doooooooom" , "zomg jealous of my uber dorf ranger" etc etc.

LOL too funny!

Clearly they have given up , thanks for playing!

post the build, otherwise dont ask for advice.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 06:51 PM
That much is true: passing out feat respecs to impacted characters would be a bad way to address the problem. Much better would be to fix the problem at its source, and not nerf low-level metamagic.


Nerf Low level metamagic. Go for it, metamagics shouldnt even be available to paladins or rangers. Just primary casting classes (to include bard).

Pallies lose nothing over this. 5 sp every 2 minutes of combat, bah. How much sp do you think it costs me to see a pally zerg ahead. I bet it is more than 5 sp every 2 minutes.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 06:51 PM
Nerf Low level metamagic. Go for it, metamagics shouldnt even be available to paladins or rangers. Just primary casting classes (to include bard).

Pallies lose nothing over this. 5 sp every 2 minutes of combat, bah. How much sp do you think it costs me to see a pally zerg ahead. I bet it is more than 5 sp every 2 minutes.

Too true.

He still won't answer my question.

HOW OFTEN DO YOU BURN THROUGH YOUR 500+ SP's?

Ziggy
08-14-2007, 06:58 PM
Nerf Low level metamagic. Go for it, metamagics shouldnt even be available to paladins or rangers. Just primary casting classes (to include bard).
well this is technically not correct.

Anyone who can cast spells can take any of the metamagic feats.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 07:02 PM
well this is technically not correct.

Anyone who can cast spells can take any of the metamagic feats.

And anyone who can swing a dagger can take melee feats. It doesn't mean they should.

Cowdenicus
08-14-2007, 07:04 PM
well this is technically not correct.

Anyone who can cast spells can take any of the metamagic feats.

Oh I understand that Ziggy. My point though is they are doing this to ENHANCE spell casting which it does beautifully.

If 2 levels (the bottom 2 I might add) take a VERY small hit on a couple of metamagics there is no reason to make an uproar about it, this will not break the game or even a play experience.

I mean seriously they are talking what, 5sp for a level 1 spell extended, and 3 sp, for a level 2, without saying anything about how there level 4 spells are cheaper.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 07:04 PM
I think his computer crashed.

I really wanted to know how often he ran out of sp's :(

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 07:11 PM
Since you refuse to accept that Divine Favor is an offensive combat spell, please enlighten us with some better feats to take at level 6.

Again I never said it isn't an offensive spell. I said that extend is not an offensive feat.
I am not here to judge your build since I don't know it. However I stand by you deserve NO compensation for this change since you are still going to be able to get what you want from the feat, an 2 min DF.
As for feats, remember this goes without knowing your build. Some do have prereqs but hey thats part of planning a build.
Feats available at level 6 (or 1):
combat Expertise
Dodge
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (opens Power Critical)
Sap (does great CC, and there is no save)
SF: UMD (for UMD builds)
Stunning Blow (would be nice on a dwarf pally with dwarven tactics)
Toughness


There were other discussions on the matter I chose to focus THIS discussion on Paladin (and rangers) because even at the high levels the vast majority of spells being cast are level 1 and 2.

That was my point; I was asking that people keep the discussion regarding their primary casters being "hurt" in that thread.


That's it ? 16 more HP is better than having +3 ab/dmg for longer? Surely you can do better than. Assuming non tripping mobs, would you tell a fighter to swap out his/her +6 str item 25% of combat time for a improved false life item?

You DF is still going to last 2 mins which is what extend says it will do. As for having the +6str and a false life item my pally has +6 str and greater false life on at all times. And can still cast DF for that +3AB/DMG you are so in love with.


I think asking how often you run out of sp's goes straight to the heart of the issue. Don't you?

Have to agree my pally only has 257 SP without a SP item and I really run out of sp. Shrines are more than abundant in this game.


Extend gives me +3 DMG /AB during more fights, I don't see how much clearer I can make it.

it doesn't tho. Just allows you to be lazy and cast it once rather than twice.

Well the whole point is I'm being told it's my fault for being such a noob for taking Extend , I'm also being told there are any number of feats BETTER that my noob caracter should have taken and 1 of them I'm told is toughness.


Not once did I call you a noob. What I am saying is that you chose the feat; you are still benefiting from what the metamagic feat is intended to do.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 07:16 PM
Pallies lose nothing over this. 5 sp every 2 minutes of combat, bah. How much sp do you think it costs me to see a pally zerg ahead. I bet it is more than 5 sp every 2 minutes.
Wait- you say you don't like zerging. But yet you approve this change, which will further reward paladins who charge forward without waiting for everyone else?

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 07:16 PM
That much is true: passing out feat respecs to impacted characters would be a bad way to address the problem. Much better would be to fix the problem at its source, and not nerf low-level metamagic.
No offense but when it is such a small percentage of people there's no point in changing it. Once these casters get to the higher levels it will balance out from all the SP they will save with their MAXED, EMPOWERED, EXTENDED Firewalls.


CE? Are you going for pure comedy here?
I wouldn't really recommend it. But people have been complaining that AC doesn't matter unless you are in the high 40's or higher. This feat would put my paladin up in between 55 and 60.

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 07:16 PM
He still won't answer my question.
HOW OFTEN DO YOU BURN THROUGH YOUR 500+ SP's?
Hopefully he won't get sucked into answering that question, which would lend support to your false position that the answer is at all relevant.

As explained more than eight times previously, you (and your associates) are committing the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy: by showing that a change isn't 100% fatal for all gameplay (true), you imply that it is beneficial for gamplay (false).

He probably doesn't run out of spellpoints currently- after all, few players do. They instead reduce their usage of spells and/or use their spells more efficiency. "More efficiently" in this case means zerging from fight to fight without pause, which is hardly an improvement to gameplay.

Many players dislike the rapid blitzkreig zerging style of play, even though it is often the tactically safest choice. By reducing the cost-effectiveness of extended Divine Favor, the new metamagic system will make zerging an even better choice for successful quest completion. But is that what the game designers should be trying to promote?

Ziggy
08-14-2007, 07:17 PM
And anyone who can swing a dagger can take melee feats. It doesn't mean they should.
Why not? what exactly is a melee feat? is it something that would help you swing better? or possibly throw that dagger better?


Oh I understand that Ziggy. My point though is they are doing this to ENHANCE spell casting which it does beautifully.

If 2 levels (the bottom 2 I might add) take a VERY small hit on a couple of metamagics there is no reason to make an uproar about it, this will not break the game or even a play experience.

I mean seriously they are talking what, 5sp for a level 1 spell extended, and 3 sp, for a level 2, without saying anything about how there level 4 spells are cheaper.
Oh i agree, my WF with 1 level of wizard is happy to pay 10 spellpoints instead of 5, as with 250'ish SP, i never run out before the next shrine. And thats with the 35% arcane failure.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 07:23 PM
As explained more than eight times previously, you (and your associates) are committing the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy: by showing that a change isn't 100% fatal for all gameplay (true), you imply that it is beneficial for gamplay (false).
Can we agree that metamagic feat are designed for primary caster? If so, (like i said in a post a moment ago; that you might be reading as i post this) it will balanced out with the SP caster save at higher levels from their MAXED< EMPOWERED, EXTEND firewalls.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 07:31 PM
He probably doesn't run out of spellpoints currently- after all, few players do. They instead reduce their usage of spells and/or use their spells more efficiency.[/b]

By his admission, he took extend to SAVE spell points. If he never runs out of SP's, then he doesn't benefit from the SAVING extend gives him.

He does however benefit from the bother of having to cast DF every minute. And that benefit goes unchanged.

I say the change won't hurt you at all.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 07:35 PM
+1 AB full time vs losing out on +3AB/DMG 25% of the time. Go on run through all the feats if you have to.

This is assuming that you run out of SP's 3/4's of the way to a shrine.

500 sp's equates to 50mins of DF (assuming you are chain casting it and having it up even while waiting for other party members to shrine, rogues to disarm traps/open doors, party members to loot chests, working on puzzles etc). How long does it take you to zerg to a shrine?

I think this has more to do with players than it does with design.

Maldini
08-14-2007, 07:43 PM
I'm switching out Extend for Mental Toughness on my Paladin

Gimpster
08-14-2007, 08:20 PM
By his admission, he took extend to SAVE spell points. If he never runs out of SP's, then he doesn't benefit from the SAVING extend gives him.
As already explained, that is blatantly wrong.

Here is an analogy: I buy hamburgers every day for lunch, and use a 25% off membership card. I never run out of money. By your logic I shouldn't be using the card; but in real life, saving is helpful even if you were not in danger of totally spending your resources.

BUpcott
08-14-2007, 08:25 PM
As already explained, that is blatantly wrong.

Here is an analogy: I buy hamburgers every day for lunch, and use a 25% off membership card. I never run out of money. By your logic I shouldn't be using the card; but in real life, saving is helpful even if you were not in danger of totally spending your resources.

Not really a good example since money isn't unlimited like SP in DDO; with shrines, taverns and city regen.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 11:47 PM
As already explained, that is blatantly wrong.

Here is an analogy: I buy hamburgers every day for lunch, and use a 25% off membership card. I never run out of money. By your logic I shouldn't be using the card; but in real life, saving is helpful even if you were not in danger of totally spending your resources.

Not a good analogy because the saved sp's can't be carried over between shrines or quests.

If you walked into a burger shop with $10 and saved 25% but dropped your change down the toilet, how much did you save?

It really doesn't matter if you finish the quest with 20sp or 200sp. You don't get more sp for the next quest.

Yabba
08-14-2007, 11:59 PM
Also,

If your 500 SP's buys you 50 mins (under the new more costly SP/cast version) of DF but it's only 15-25 mins to the next shrine, do you really need to make a saving?

Excess SP's do not carry over.

If, by your own admission, you never run out of SP's, then we really are discussing a moot point.

Gimpster
08-15-2007, 12:36 AM
Not a good analogy because the saved sp's can't be carried over between shrines or quests.
Wrong. It is a fine analogy, because the saved SPs can be used for other purposes like Cure Moderate Wounds, Angleskin, or Resist Energy.

Yabba
08-15-2007, 12:41 AM
Wrong. It is a fine analogy, because the saved SPs can be used for other purposes like Cure Moderate Wounds, Angleskin, or Resist Energy.

I was assuming you were already casting those spells and by your own admission NOT running out of SP's.

Now you're clutching at straws as your argument falls apart.

Let me give you a tip. With the new system. Primary casters will be saving a lot on their SP costs of their higher level spells.

Ask them for a resist when you need it. I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige. I know my sorc/cleric is.

Better still. Party with a Ranger. I know ranger has more than enough SP's to cover your needs. And only with a 14 Wisdom.

Snike
08-15-2007, 01:43 AM
Some people have turned this into a lame thread. Yes, saying the changes suck for paladins and rangers was limiting... it sucks for all buffers that buff low level spells alot. Some ranger and paladins do this, bards do this, clerics do this, and wizards do this.

Low level spell buffers are getting nerfed with change. Maybe some paladin/ranger won't be affected but others will be and were voicing thier concerns about it.

Hvymetal
08-15-2007, 02:42 AM
Some people have turned this into a lame thread. Yes, saying the changes suck for paladins and rangers was limiting... it sucks for all buffers that buff low level spells alot. Some ranger and paladins do this, bards do this, clerics do this, and wizards do this.

Low level spell buffers are getting nerfed with change. Maybe some paladin/ranger won't be affected but others will be and were voicing thier concerns about it.Exactly, and because they have concerns about it some others decided that it was more productive to attack someones build and they way they wished to play their character.

Let me ask you this (not the person I quoted but some of the people arguing against GPK), if this was modified so that it did not basically waste a feat for low level buffers yet remained the same for high level casters how would this harm you?

KristovK
08-15-2007, 02:42 AM
It's really rather funny that Gimpster refuses to acknowledge a logical argument and continues to simply deride people...of course that is his standard MO, so it's starting to get just plain annoying and tedious.

If you currently do NOT run out of sp between shrines then it's unlikely you'll run out with the new system. 500sp to be spent on DF...that's 50 minutes of DF. Since I've yet to see ANY quest in DDO that has you spending that much time between shrines, it's pretty much a given that you won't be running out of sp unless you are doing something that IS flat out stupid like tossing CLW out to put that Barb back up to full hp.

I have a Ranger and a Paladin...NEITHER uses Extend and neither uses the cure spells they have access to. By the time they get access to cure spells, those spells are pointless, so they never even bother with them, why spend sp on a CLW when I can whip out a CMW or CSW? I know, logical thinking and tactical gameplay, confusing stuff that shouldn't be used in this argument, but what can I say, I prefer to use them over the dazzle em with bs line of thought. By the time a Ranger gets Barkskin, they already cast it for 8 minutes, no reason to Extend it. The resists...again, no reason to Extend them by the time they are gotten, 4th for Ranger and 8th for Paladin, and in both cases, they'll last long enough for the levels gotten without being Extended. Divine Favor lasts for 1 min, 2 mins Extended...and outside of some very unique combats, 1 min is generally more then required, so again, Extend isn't required.

No need to zerg if you have to spend the same amount of sp to cast the spell 2x or Extend it once, simply cast it less often and take a little MORE time between combats to actually use tactics and strategy...I know, I know, again with the logic, must be driving poor Gimpster to drink or something. Paladins who use Extended DF do it currently for one reason..to zerg from one battle to the next since it doesn't take a full minute to finish most combats, so they zerg to the next fight so they don't waste those sp. Gimpsters logic is that they'll HAVE to zerg because they don't want to waste those sp...er...hang on...what's different about now and what will be? OHHHHh..that's right...the zergers will be whining about the fact that they have to spend more sp to do the same thing they already do, so they have to keep doing what they've always done and....ouch...I think I sprained my brain, that's not circular logic, that's a bloody mobius loop.

And as for Gimp's badly done attempt to make it out that ALL casters get screwed over by the new system at low levels...bs. The costs aren't high enough to actually hurt casters even at low levels, especially when one takes into consideration the proliferation of shrines in the lower level quests. Sorcs are usually the only casters using Emp at 2nd level..course they only have 1 or 2 1st level spells to use it with and they ALREADY burn through their sp before they hit the 2nd fight in most quests, so the new system won't really affect them at all will it. They'd probably be better off taking Mental Toughness instead of Empower at 1st level, more sp is always a good thing, but hey, Sorcs ain't known for their brains are they. Wizards don't tend to use Emp at low levels, ain't got the sp to waste like Sorcs do, usually go with Extend, which really isn't needed either, but what the hells, we get a free feat, may as well use it right? So it'll take 20 sp to Extend Shield instead of 15...big freaking deal, at low levels I'll just cast it 2x instead of Extending it...or I'll just Extend it for the same reason I do now, because I tend to forget about it, not like my Wizards are on the front line or anything getting whacked left and right and having to worry about AC.

Oddly enough, the new system costs +5 sp for 1st level spells over the current system for Extend, Empower and Maximize. 2nd level spells will cost +3 sp for Extend, +0 for Empower and -5 for Maximize. 3rd level spells cost +0, -5, -15....yeah, I can definately see how lower level casters are getting hurt by the new system.

Hvymetal
08-15-2007, 02:43 AM
I'm switching out Extend for Mental Toughness on my Paladin

I'm glad I din't take it:) Almost took extend because my Pally does not have nearly 500 SP and does run out after buffing a party up on some quests and doing backup healing, only usually leaves me enough for a few DF's.

Gimpster
08-15-2007, 03:01 AM
It's really rather funny that Gimpster refuses to acknowledge a logical argument and continues to simply deride people...of course that is his standard MO, so it's starting to get just plain annoying and tedious.
Those groundless and ludicrous insults are so far from a resemblance of truth, it would demean me to demolish them.

Cowdenicus
08-15-2007, 04:27 AM
Exactly, and because they have concerns about it some others decided that it was more productive to attack someones build and they way they wished to play their character.

Let me ask you this (not the person I quoted but some of the people arguing against GPK), if this was modified so that it did not basically waste a feat for low level buffers yet remained the same for high level casters how would this harm you?

lol what low level buffers? like I said in my experience the only people I seen palles buff is themselves, and half the time they wont do that.

Hvymetal
08-15-2007, 04:46 AM
lol what low level buffers? like I said in my experience the only people I seen palles buff is themselves, and half the time they wont do that.
And in my experience, seeing as one of my mains is a Pally I resist and pass out virtue to the party, so you are stating then that all pallys only buff themselves and half the time they won't do that? Come now blanket statements are a poor form of argumentation. Like I said the change does not effect me in the slightest but the attitudes shown here do.

That would be like me saying that in my experience a majority of arcanes will not resist themselves, while true I would not think to make a blanket statement about all arcane casters out there that they will not resist themselves as there are patently some that do.

So please think before you imply that ALL players that play Paladins play them selfishly in your limited contact with every player that plays Paladins across every server plays them selfishly.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-15-2007, 07:29 AM
lol what low level buffers? like I said in my experience the only people I seen palles buff is themselves, and half the time they wont do that.

Eh, some palis and rangers are great about that kind of buffing, othrs aren't. When I'm on my cleric or sorc I'll ask them if they can give it out if they don't do it on their own and I've never heard one say no yet.

Yabba
08-15-2007, 08:01 AM
By taking away my ability to extend them AND save SP they ARE reducing the effectiveness of my buffs.

OK. Now that we have established that your character should have enough SP's to keep DF up constantly while zerging to the next shrine, lets dispell the myth that Extend doesn't do what you wanted it to do, and now you need compensation for having to change it out.

The number one reason for taking Extend is to reduce the SP cost on spells. Mostly in the form of buffs.

Under the new system (let's forget about the old system, it's irrelevant for this argument) the SP costs will be.

Spell Level 1

Unextended x 2 = 20sp
Extended = 20sp

Net costs/savings = 0sp


Spell Level 2

Unextended x 2 = 30sp
Extended = 25sp

Net Savings = 5sp


OMG!!!. Extend will still SAVE you SP's. Granted the savings aren't as much as they were before, but a saving none the less. REJOICE!!!

You took the feat to EXTEND your buffs and SAVE you SP's, and that's exactly what it will still do under the new system.

And guess what. 3rd Level Casters get the same saving.

No need for compensation after all.

The only people I see losing out is the ones that can only cast lvl 1 spells. And that's got to be a very small percentage of the builds.

Snike
08-15-2007, 10:30 AM
Some of you really have selective reading skills. They are calling it a nerf. And a bunch of people call foul by saying... why take the feat, your build sucks, it's not a nerf!... please tell me why can't some folks voice out about a nerf without the troll police making every comment possible about... I don't know what.


Spell Level 1

Unextended x 2 = 20sp
Extended = 20sp

Net costs/savings = 0sp


Spell Level 2

Unextended x 2 = 30sp
Extended = 25sp

Net Savings = 5sp


Before the changes...

Spell Level 1

Unextended x 2 = 20sp
Extended = 15sp

Net costs/savings = 5sp


Spell Level 2

Unextended x 2 = 30sp
Extended = 23sp

Net Savings = 7sp

Cowdenicus
08-15-2007, 02:34 PM
oh noes, leys compare everything to what we had, because games never change.

BUpcott
08-15-2007, 04:40 PM
Some of you really have selective reading skills. They are calling it a nerf. And a bunch of people call foul by saying... why take the feat, your build sucks, it's not a nerf!... please tell me why can't some folks voice out about a nerf without the troll police making every comment possible about... I don't know what.



Before the changes...

Spell Level 1

Unextended x 2 = 20sp
Extended = 15sp

Net costs/savings = 5sp


Spell Level 2

Unextended x 2 = 30sp
Extended = 23sp

Net Savings = 7sp

Firstly I never said anyones build sucks, simply poked at the fact that they took a feat designed for primary caster, whom this change, in the long run helps. Let's look at it, using your numbers above as well because I am to lazy to even cut and paste.

Todays System:

Spell Level 3
Fireball
MAXIMIZE + EMPOWER = 78 SP

Haste
EXTENDED = 30 SP

Spell Level 4
Firewall
MAXIMIZED + EMPOWER + EXTENDED = 110 SP

Stoneskin
EXTENDED = 38 SP

Same spells new system...
Fireball
MAXIMIZE + EMPOWER = 60 SP NET SAVINGS = 20 SP

Haste
EXTENDED = 30 SP NET SAVINGS = 0 SP

Spell Level 4
Firewall
MAXIMIZED + EMPOWER + EXTENDED = 70 SP NET SAVINGS= 40 SP

Stoneskin
EXTENDED = 35 SP NET SAVINGS = 3 SP

I will say it again, the PROS out weigh the CONS. You save more than enough higher up to cover the loses for lvel 1 and 2 spells. I will also say again, metamagic feats are designed for the primary spellcasters (sorc, wiz, clr;bards being secondary) and the new system works for them.

Puke
08-15-2007, 05:49 PM
I just learned about this and it impacts me directly.

First off, I can't believe the developers felt a need to work on helping casters save more SPs on their higher level spells. I feel that they have more than enough SPs and can do very scary damage as it is. Now they have even more SP for their nasty higher level spells! I don't think casters even use wands anymore because of the oodles of SP they have! Lightning Bolt wand, anyone? Fireball? Scroll?

I've played a few Rangers and have settled on a build I really like. The last thing I discovered was the Extend Feat. I didn't think it'd do much for me but on a whim one day I changed a feat for Extend and there has been no turning back. Rangers are not vast pools of SPs and economics have to come into play with their SPs. When there is a Ranger in the group, every player of that group expects a Barkskin. I accepted this a long time ago and I do my best to be able to provide that service. Other than Invaders and a very small microcosm of other encounters in other quests, characters really do not have to deal with being debuffed. Thus, it is actually rarely ever a waste to cast in Extend. To provide a 28-minute Barkskin and a couple resists is great especially since it cost me much less in the long run. I can cast MORE on LESS! It's like a Feat for free SPs. Usually if someone dies or I have to buff someone again for whatever reason, I'll do it w/out Extend because yes, we will find a shrine.

You know, I really liked my build and choice for the Extend feat. I learned some of the nuances to making it work too and knew when to turn that Extend off but for the most part, I was able to use it to milk my SPs for much more. I guess now I'll have to respec it for Impr Crit Slashing or something and skimp more on my buffs and now start asking for DVs to get us through.

But man, casters were struggling with their SPs and how much their higher level spells cost them? I really find that hard to believe. After some of the changes I'm now convinced that someone directing this ship has his head in a dark stinky hole. More quests, races, classes please than giving casters more FoD!

How about some Barkskin wands then?

Impaqt
08-15-2007, 06:01 PM
I just learned about this and it impacts me directly.

First off, I can't believe the developers felt a need to work on helping casters save more SPs on their higher level spells. I feel that they have more than enough SPs and can do very scary damage as it is. Now they have even more SP for their nasty higher level spells! I don't think casters even use wands anymore because of the oodles of SP they have! Lightning Bolt wand, anyone? Fireball? Scroll?

I've played a few Rangers and have settled on a build I really like. The last thing I discovered was the Extend Feat. I didn't think it'd do much for me but on a whim one day I changed a feat for Extend and there has been no turning back. Rangers are not vast pools of SPs and economics have to come into play with their SPs. When there is a Ranger in the group, every player of that group expects a Barkskin. I accepted this a long time ago and I do my best to be able to provide that service. Other than Invaders and a very small microcosm of other encounters in other quests, characters really do not have to deal with being debuffed. Thus, it is actually rarely ever a waste to cast in Extend. To provide a 28-minute Barkskin and a couple resists is great especially since it cost me much less in the long run. I can cast MORE on LESS! It's like a Feat for free SPs. Usually if someone dies or I have to buff someone again for whatever reason, I'll do it w/out Extend because yes, we will find a shrine.

You know, I really liked my build and choice for the Extend feat. I learned some of the nuances to making it work too and knew when to turn that Extend off but for the most part, I was able to use it to milk my SPs for much more. I guess now I'll have to respec it for Impr Crit Slashing or something and skimp more on my buffs and now start asking for DVs to get us through.

But man, casters were struggling with their SPs and how much their higher level spells cost them? I really find that hard to believe. After some of the changes I'm now convinced that someone directing this ship has his head in a dark stinky hole. More quests, races, classes please than giving casters more FoD!

How about some Barkskin wands then?

How many quests are there where you dont see a Shrine for 28 minutes????? I dont know of any.....
Barkskin Pots are readily availabale.. +1 and +3 Varieties...

You Took Extend over Improved Crit? THats all I can say about that without getting in trouble.

Yabba
08-15-2007, 06:02 PM
Some of you really have selective reading skills. They are calling it a nerf. And a bunch of people call foul by saying... why take the feat, your build sucks, it's not a nerf!... please tell me why can't some folks voice out about a nerf without the troll police making every comment possible about... I don't know what.

1. nerf

To make worse or weaken, usually in the context of weakening something in order to balance out a game.


Tell me again how this is a nerf. Gimpster already pointed out that this is going to allow spell casters to do the impossible.

It's also been pointed out that the effects on Pallies and Rangers will be minimal if anything at all. Both classes will still have more than enough SP's to achieve what they need to do if they are built properly and played well.

A sorc with 10,000sp's can still run out of sp's if they're played idiotically. Will that mean casters will have to have their sp pool increased?