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Shroonith
08-13-2007, 10:14 AM
hi there, i have an amazing drow 2wf

heres what i did:
(note, on this build you need a +1 dex tome from another source)

18str (+3 from levels 4, 8, and 12)
16dex (+1 dex tome)
10con
10int
8wis
12cha

2PLD/12FTR is your goal
use shortswords (and possibly rapiers)

Feats : total 11
3: TWF, ITWF, GTWF - the 3 two weapon fighting feats (these are normal, improved and greater two weapon fighting)
4: WF:P, WS:P, GWF:P, GWS:P - the piercing weapon feats (these are normal and greater weapon focus : piercing and normal and greater weapon specialization : piercing)
those are the 4 basic feats for DPS, leaving you with 4 more
i recommend power attack, toughness, improved critical : piercing, and a free feat of your choice. (if you are lucky enough to pull a +3 int tome from the reaver, take combat expertise!)

What does 2PLD give you? - extra survivability.
2 levels of paladin gives you some nice stuff, and i recommend you take it as your 1st 2 levels.
FEATS:
Smite evil - attack with twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, and a damage bonus based on your paladin level.
Divine grace - you can apply your charisma modifier to saving throws
Lay on hands - a once per day ability that heals (or damages undead) target for (10+PLD level) x CHR modifier.
Aura of good - An aura granting a +1 bonus to saves and Armor Class
ENHANCEMENTS:
Follower of Vulkoor (lvl1) - +1 to hit with shortswords
Paladin Charisma (lvl2) - +1 CHA
-------------



Fighter enhancements to get:
Fighter Strength
Fighter Toughness
Item Defense (optional)
Fighter Armor Mastery

Drow enhancements to get:
Drow Melee Damage
Drow Melee Attack
Drow Spell Resistance (optional)
Elven Dexterity (Optional depending on your dexterity item and Max dex bonus)


- what this looks like end game (assuming 30STR, which is not hard with a +5 item and a +1 tome, or a +6 item)
Attack:
14 BAB
+5 Shortsword
+2 WF:P, GWF:P
+2 Drow Melee Attack
+10 STR
+1 Vulkoor Champion
-2 TWF
---------------
32 attack unbuffed (27 with PA)


Damage (mainhand)
+5 Shortsword
+10 STR
+4 WS:P, GWS:P
+2 Drow Melee Damage
----------------
+21 damage per hit (26 with PA)

Damage (offhand)
+5 Shortsword
+5 STR
+4 WS:P, GWS:P
+2 Drow Melee Damage
----------------
+16 damage per hit (21 with PA)

weapons to use:
a reasonable goal would be : +5 elemental shortsword of deception / treason offhand would be a very nice combo for damage (with some survivability, thanks to deception)
theres nothing stopping you on this build from effectively using wounding/puncturing stuff and doing stat damage
but if you find a pair of +5 holy/elemental burst shortswords of pure good RR drow please use them. (mathematically its the same as the deception/treason combo if your only using 1)



----------------maximum's ( a look at what happens if everything you want drops for you)
STR: 18 +3 from levels + 3 from enhancements + 6 from item + 2 from tome + 2 rage/madstone boots etc : 34 STR, this would bring your to-hit up 2 in each hand, as well as 2 damage mainhand 1 offhand. to a total of +34 to hit, with +23/17 damage

Weapon: +5 Elemental (or holy/ elemental burst RR drow) shortsword of deception / treason. you now have backstabbing 3 on most of the time thanks to deception making the target vulnerable to sneak attack. Backstabbing 3 gives you a +3 attack and +5 damage to all attacks that would sneak attack (this damage is constant, and works on most things except undead and construct but cannot be multiplied by critical hits). Now you have a +37 to hit and +28/22 damage.

Thats pretty good still unbuffed! Greater heroism, good hope, recitation, haste, bard songs, power attack will all make these numbers go up even more!

------------------------------




just for comparison, lets see how this stands up to a popular barbarian build in rage an Power attack. (well turn PA on as well)

Maldini's pure dps barbarin, quoted from his own build, FULLY kitted out does +42damage, with a +5 weapon and power attack. (disclaimer: i believe this is for his human build, dwarf will do Have different numbers with a greataxe and enhancements, warforged with their PA enhancements. He also has critical rage, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=115850 for reference)
barbarians get 4 attacks, making this +168 damage in a round to a single target, assuming no crits.

we have 4 normal attacks +33 (23+5PA +5 Sneak Attack) and 3 offhand attacks +27(17+5PA +5 Sneak Attack): +132 mainhand and + 81 offhand : +213 a round.

Now i know your going to say, but wait! glancing blows do a lot of damage! omgzor! yes they do, about 40 a round to nearby enemies, but remeber that free feat? since we already have power attack, go ahead and take cleave. now you will also do 1d6+33 +1d6 from whatever element you have on your weapon in an area of effect every 5 seconds. Unlike glancing blows you are also able to critical hit on cleaved attacks. This can give you a very respectable aoe power if you desire it.


------------------------------



another quick comparison: the CON damage TWF
doing 7 con damage a round + and average (assuming rapier/shortsword with improved crit) of 6/20 x4 + 4/20 x3: 36/20: 9/5, (well make it a generous 2) crits of 1d6 con DMG per round. Thats a total of 7+2d6 con DMG, average 14 con dmg a round. on a monster with 20 HD, which is INCREDIBLY generous in current content, this would deal the equivalent of +140 points of damage, bringing it short of the Barbarian and nowhere near this build while not even taking into consideration our criticals. Indeed, a monster would have to have a massive 30HD to make the typical Wounding/puncturing build on par with this build.

(fyi: this build has an average critical damage of 4/20 x 4 x 28: 22.4 mainhand + 4/20 x 3 x 22: 13.2 = +34.6 damage a round.

the barbarian assuming a non-sword of shadows(man that things imba) greatsword /w improved crit and critical rage has (4+2)/20 x 4 x 42: +50.4 damage a round)

--------------------------


when to use rapiers : when critical hits are what u need (banisher, smiter), otherwise the +1 attack from shortsword about makes up for it. rapiers are simply harder to come by in my experience.



------------------------ Survivability
AC- armor class
Whats a decent armor class to shoot for:
disclaimer: even though this is a 2 weapon fighting build i recommend you always carry a shield.

that being said, what ac is achievable with this build in good to great gear, without spamming clickies of shield lvl 1
with an easy dex of 22, (16 base +1 tome +5 from other sources - you can take 2 from the drow enhancements)

10 base
+13 (+5 mithral fullplate)
+3 max dex bonus
+3 fighter armor master
+5 protection item
+2 chaosguardes
+3 barkskin potions, cheap, good, last 6 minutes!
+1 Paladin aura
------
40 ac is not bad!
now with more uber gear and spells:
+3 chattering ring
+4 shield clicky (5/10 level ones)
+1 haste (pots/clickies etc.)
------
48 self achieveable ac while twf is quite impressive, obviously a party can take this higher with a true paladin aura and better barkskin


HP: with a 10 con base, your HP might be a little low, but with gear it becomes manageable. With Toughness and the fighter enhancement, your base 140HP becomes 140+17+5+10+15+20: 207. With 16 CON (easily achievable) its a respectable, if a little low 249, and with 18 CON (max) its 263.

Saves - (Base of 11/4/4)
Saves will be quite good as you can add your charisma modifier to them. 12 cha to start, +1 from enhancement leaves you at 13. 18 would be a low expected CHA, maxing out at 22 with +3 tome and +6 item. This would yield a +4-6 resistance bonus. With a resistance item, the paladins aura and greater heroism you can get that will save up to high teens if not low twenties


----------------------
other races:
i believe this build can be modified easily for dwarf for slashing/axes, and probably human.

Jarlaxel
08-13-2007, 06:55 PM
Fun Build. I have a Lvl 14 32pt TWF slashing Elf fighter which is very similar to this build. I can see this build will work really well and will be fun to play. Questions: Have you thought about squeezing in spring attack line? With the improved AI it helps a lot. Next, what do you plan to do when the lvl cap goes to 16? keep in mind if they introduce superior TWF I am anticipating that it will require a base dex of 19 and BAB 16. Also have you thought about adding 2 lvls of rogue for evasion when the cap increases. If you do that, you would need to think of how you would max out the dex on a +5 MBP. Then you would have a solid batman build. Evasion and 2 lvls of rogue in my opinion is the way to go. With a maxed +5 mbp you lose 1 ac. The gain = evasion, permanant BS damage, and an increase in skill points for umd. As more content is released more mobs will be like the stormreaver.

Shroonith
08-13-2007, 07:35 PM
Fun Build. I have a Lvl 14 32pt TWF slashing Elf fighter which is very similar to this build. I can see this build will work really well and will be fun to play. Questions: Have you thought about squeezing in spring attack line? With the improved AI it helps a lot. Next, what do you plan to do when the lvl cap goes to 16? keep in mind if they introduce superior TWF I am anticipating that it will require a base dex of 19 and BAB 16. Also have you thought about adding 2 lvls of rogue for evasion when the cap increases. If you do that, you would need to think of how you would max out the dex on a +5 MBP. Then you would have a solid batman build. Evasion and 2 lvls of rogue in my opinion is the way to go. With a maxed +5 mbp you lose 1 ac. The gain = evasion, permanant BS damage, and an increase in skill points for umd. As more content is released more mobs will be like the stormreaver.

1st question: spring attack, id love to get it if the level cap increases, however as it is i really want PA and toughness leaving me with only 2 extra feats, not enough for spring attack, when lvl 16 rolls around however i will probably be changing to it.
2 levels of rogue would add +1d6+2 sneak attack damage, and evasion as well as 1 dex, however to get superior TWF, you would need to recieve your feat on lvl 16 which only fighter can do! ( i assume ranger will get it for free) so i am quite torn. Also lvl 3 paladin has many lovely features.

As for the MBP, needing 19 dex for STWF i will be hunting a +3 dex tome pretty solidly to overwrite my +1 tome. Base dex of 19, +2 Drow enhancement + 1 rogue enhancement : 22 base dex. MBP max dex is 5, with an additional 3 from fighter ( possibly 4 later ) bringing it to 8. For a modifier of 8 youll need 26 dex, or +4 more, which madstone boots will give you.

sigtrent
08-13-2007, 08:03 PM
Kind of depends...

The fighter feats you have could be outweighed DPS wise by taking rogue 10-12 and fighter 2-4. You get all the TWF feats, only missing on the weapon specs (4 damage) and pick up 5d6 or 6d6 + as much as another +8 from enhancements. Attack values suffer but you can use divine power of what not to off set much of that. Even with less str damage you are still looking at a stronger average damage profile.

On the other side you have the TWF barbarian builds, where you are TWF and have more STR on your side but a wider crit range. Combine this with a wound/puncturing weapons and you get a lot of con damage and a lot of straight damage at the same time, it's devistating.

Finaly you have the bards wtih GTWF who are stacking on another +7 damage on all thier attacks from the bard songs. They can be build with high STR and self haste etc...

Basicaly there are lots of ways to DPS with TWF. I think overall the Rogue or Barbarian options are going to out DPS the fighter variant a bit, although the fighter has a nice consistancy going for him. He isn't relying on any conditions do do what he does.

Shade
08-14-2007, 10:42 AM
Maldini's pure dps barbarin, quoted from his own build, FULLY kitted out does +42damage, with a +5 weapon and power attack. (disclaimer: i believe this is for his human build, dwarf will do Have different numbers with a greataxe and enhancements, warforged with their PA enhancements. He also has critical rage, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=115850 for reference)
barbarians get 4 attacks, making this +168 damage in a round to a single target, assuming no crits.

we have 4 normal attacks +33 (23+5PA +5 Sneak Attack) and 3 offhand attacks +27(17+5PA +5 Sneak Attack): +132 mainhand and + 81 offhand : +213 a round.


lol.. Total nonsense. Make up fairy tale ideas of DPS there is all that is. Sorry but even if Maldinis build had no GTHF and started 16 str, you still wouldn't even be n in the same league for damage.

Your numbers make absolutely no sense. I have basicly the same build as Maldini, and for me to do 168 damage in 1 round is absolutely impossible. Hell it's insanely unlikely ill do less then 400 damage in 1 round.

Looked like you compared Maldini unarmed with no weapon while debuffed carrying a 10000 pound rock on his back vs you with some imaginary +10 damage weapon that sneak attacks every strike. (even tho your not a rogue and seposedly out DPS a barbarian which make any sneak attacks impossible).

You might do 213 damage a round if every hit goes perfect and you magically sneak attack every hit while the stars are aligned in your favor. I do 218 damage a swing, if I roll a 13 or better.. No idea what the made up weapon you used for your dmg comparsion was, but you mentiond shortswords, which crit on a 17...

Sorry but fighters do not live in the same world when it comes to DPS. Barbarians win, there is no comparison. All the made up numbers in the world wouldn't change that.

The build is not bad or anything, just don't kid yourself when it come to dps.

Shroonith
08-14-2007, 10:56 AM
post ur build and gear and ill run the numbers for you. everything i posted is accurate, please do not claim its not without posting any sort of refutation. its + to damage a round not factoring base weapon damage. are you using a bloodstone? are you using SOS? ( i made a note at the bottom that the SOS will out dps nearly everything).


Deception procs an average of once a round and lasts about 1 round so yes i pretty much sneak attack every hit. Deception temporarily blinds a target so they become vulnerable to sneak attack.

come do the reaver with me one day and well see who has agro :) (even with my treason)

Aspenor
08-14-2007, 10:58 AM
I'd like to see some numbers cranked a warforged barbarian, dual wielding heavy picks fully specced out with twf feats, critical range and warforged critical enhancements, as well as the PA enhancements. I'm not sure what his to-hit would look like, but those are some sick damage numbers.

EinarMal
08-14-2007, 11:10 AM
I do not like the way you calculated damage, assuming no criticals?? That is stacking the deck against Barbarians and their critical rage enhancements. It is ok to assume 2-19 hits and 1 misses to simplify the calculations but you have to take into account critical hits. Also adding in sneak attack damage is pretty dubious as you certainly won't be getting that +5 every swing even with treason.

If you want to throw in specialty damage then a strength based rogue will win every time. Per swing 7d6 sneak damage gives 21 damage alone and if you go Rogue 12/Fighter 2 you can take GTWF and get 7 swings. With 28 strength (easily reachable) and a +5 weapons plus backstabbing enhancments +8 more you are looking at +38/+33 main and off hand damage and that is without even PA which you could also take. It is way more than your build.

Now in reality they aren't going to get all that damage, but if you are strictly going for bragging rights the rogue will win.

EinarMal
08-14-2007, 11:17 AM
I have a Bard that does comparable damage (just don't stand too close when I sing ;) )

(Drow Male Neutral Warchanter Bard 10/Fighter 4)

Stats:
Str 16 (30 =16 +3 Levels +1 Enh. +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (24 =16 +1 Tome +1 Enh. +6 Item)

Feats:
Extend
(FB) TWF
WF Piercing
(FB)PA
Toughness (Alt. would be stunning blow with weighted offhand weapon)
ITWF
IC Piercing
(FB)GTWF

To Hit @14
BAB 11
Racial 2
Str 10
Weapon 5
Song 7
WF 1
Focusing Chant 1
Haste 1
TWF -2
PA -5
+36 (31 PA)

Damage @14
Weapon 5
Str 10
Song 6
PA 5
Racial 2
+28

That is pretty much on par with a fighter now I know if you are in my party you can have my Bard buffs too, but still shows how much DPS you can get out of a battle Bard. Assuming only buffs that you can caste yourself it is pretty awesome DPS.

Shroonith
08-14-2007, 11:53 AM
I'd like to see some numbers cranked a warforged barbarian, dual wielding heavy picks fully specced out with twf feats, critical range and warforged critical enhancements, as well as the PA enhancements. I'm not sure what his to-hit would look like, but those are some sick damage numbers.

ask and you shall receive:

Weapons: we will use +5 heavy pick / +5 light pick so as to be realistic (to hit still matters guys and -2 attack, a -10% to hit, is not worth the change from 1d4 to 1d6 an average of 1 more damage a hit)

Feats: the 3 twf, PA, improved critical: piercing

enhancements: (at least the ones that affect damage)
warforged PA III : -3 to hit +3 to damage
barbarian PA III : -3 to hit +3 to damage
barbarian critical rage II : +2 to crit range
barbarian power rage IV : 4 strength while raging

Strength:
18 Base
+3 from levels 4/8/12
+3 from tome
+6 from item
+10 from barb rage
+2 rage (spell)
-------
42: modifier of +16


Damage:
mainhand would be a 1d6+5+16 with a 17-20x4 crit
offhand would be a 1d4+5+8 with a 17-20x4 crit

power attack, a now -11 to hit and +11 damage makes these

mainhand would be a 1d6+5+16+11 with a 17-20x4 crit
offhand would be a 1d4+5+8+11 with a 17-20x4 crit

base dmg:
(1d6+32) x4 + (1d4+24) x 3: 4d6+3d4+200(mine was a 7d6+213)

critical hits, (the glory behind this idea i assume)
mainhand will crit 4/20 of the time as will offhand, the crit adding 3x the damage extra ( ie a multiplier of 4x).
damage done extra by crit:
(1d6+32) x4 x4/20 x3 + (1d4+24) x 3 x4/20 x3 :
(1d6+32) x48/20 + (1d4+24) x 36/20 :
(1d6+32) x2.4 + (1d4+24) x 1.8:
(2.4d6)+76.8+(1.8d4)+43.2:
(2.4d6)+(1.8d4)+120: a massive +120 a round bringing average damage up to +320 a round! the dice rolls average to 25.8


attack bonus:
14 BAB
+16 STR
-2 TWF
-11 PA
+5 weapon
---------
+22

in comparison, my build, also unbuffed, with PA on has a 29 to hit [32 with SA]
7 attack is roughly 33% more misses :(



----- to einar, later i do show the damage criticals would be doing, and yes rogue is imba.

a lot of you guys are forgetting how much attack bonus matters. my build has a very very high attack bonus.

Casta
08-14-2007, 04:11 PM
just for comparison, lets see how this stands up to a popular barbarian build in rage an Power attack. (well turn PA on as well)

Maldini's pure dps barbarin, quoted from his own build, FULLY kitted out does +42damage, with a +5 weapon and power attack. (disclaimer: i believe this is for his human build, dwarf will do Have different numbers with a greataxe and enhancements, warforged with their PA enhancements. He also has critical rage, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=115850 for reference)
barbarians get 4 attacks, making this +168 damage in a round to a single target, assuming no crits.

we have 4 normal attacks +33 (23+5PA +5 Sneak Attack) and 3 offhand attacks +27(17+5PA +5 Sneak Attack): +132 mainhand and + 81 offhand : +213 a round.

Now i know your going to say, but wait! glancing blows do a lot of damage! omgzor! yes they do, about 40 a round to nearby enemies, but remeber that free feat? since we already have power attack, go ahead and take cleave. now you will also do 1d6+33 +1d6 from whatever element you have on your weapon in an area of effect every 5 seconds. Unlike glancing blows you are also able to critical hit on cleaved attacks. This can give you a very respectable aoe power if you desire it.


Glancing blows do 20-40 damage a round to the mob your targeting, they also do the same amount to every mob around you, this can add up to alot more then 40 damage a round. I think cleave/greatcleave would do more damage on a good fighter who never forgets to spam them as much as he can, most fighters don't do that and forget about them for hole fights sometimes.

And some things on that build are a little outdated like madstone boots would give another +1 damage righteousness could add +2, and im sure theres other things. since your assuming you have everything i think if we add bloodstone and a sos the barb would outdamage you easly.

Shroonith
08-14-2007, 10:18 PM
maldini blantantly picks and chooses his numbers and you guys seem to love his builds... i dont understand it:


5) Attack score is important to this build. Here is the Attack breakdown:

+14 BAB
+16 from Max Strength
+5 Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
Total: +36 Base/+31 with Power Attack

NOTE: With max buffs and items, this barb can hit over a +50 Attack, nothing can withstand that kind of power.

6) Damage is important too and it is where this build shines. The following is the base damage you can achieve with a two-handed weapon and Max Strength:

+24 from Max Strength (Two-Handed)
+13 Power Attack (Two-Handed)
+5 Weapon
Total: +42 Base

Always remember that the Attack and Damage scores listed are without outside buffs. So with buffs, the numbers sky-rocket.

in the first instance power attack has no enhancement, in the second, it does. PA would lower his attack by 8 if it was to increase hes damage by 13.

dont even get me started on his AC section.

Casta
08-15-2007, 04:02 PM
Still a solid build even if some of his numbers are a little off.

Impaqt
08-15-2007, 04:28 PM
Best Disable Device? THis guy couldnt disable a wet paper bag.....

sheesh....

Maldini
08-15-2007, 11:09 PM
maldini blantantly picks and chooses his numbers and you guys seem to love his builds... i dont understand it:



in the first instance power attack has no enhancement, in the second, it does. PA would lower his attack by 8 if it was to increase hes damage by 13.

dont even get me started on his AC section.

Wow, you take yourself too seriously...

Yeah my number have some mistakes that I have to fix, but if you want to be technial, my damage numbers from Power Attack are actually lower than they should. PA III should be +16 damage, and the Attack Score should be 36/28 which is still plenty unbuffed..

And the AC section is fine. Yes you can add the Rage penalties in for another -4 double raged. The bottom line is when I wrote it I was short on time and didn't feel like writing a bunch of different scenarios. In a well-balanced group, I can hit over a 50 AC on my Barb with the Madstone Shield, using Heavy Picks, which is my one-handed weapon of choice.

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 03:20 AM
Someone post the gear of a maxed barbarian and what spells he has on, i will run the full numbers and post them here with a comparison in similar gear and spells (obivously different weapons) to my own build .

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 06:25 AM
Someone post the gear of a maxed barbarian and what spells he has on, i will run the full numbers and post them here with a comparison in similar gear and spells (obivously different weapons) to my own build .

There's no need to crunch the numbers again. Give the barb a +5 greataxe, understand that you will NOT get a +5 BS bonus on every hit, factoring in that the barb is doing double your base damage ( 1d6 vs 1d12 ) and criting just as often as you for X3 dmg vs X2, and if you wanna get REAL technical, the fact that you WILL NOT get your entire att chain ( 7 att. ) off in the time it takes the barb ( 4 att. ) to get off his ( I know bro, I have a TWF :( , DDO is real-time, rounds don't convert as they should ), and your claim to highest DD is blown outta the water.

Like I said in your other thread, impressive build, impressive DPS. But you will NOT out-DPS a barb. Period. End of story.

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 06:53 AM
thats odd,,, because on most bosses, im the one with agro and the SOS barb is not

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 06:58 AM
thats odd,,, because on most bosses, im the one with agro and the SOS barb is not

Then that SoS barb you play with sucks. Anyone who takes a look can see that what you posted will be outdamaged by a good barb with a +5 greataxe. Give the barb a SoS in that equation, and there's really no-contest. Looks to me like someone came up with a good DPS fighter build, and then lost their Fing mind.

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 07:58 AM
actually i think its because my attack bonus is usually significantly higher, :) each point higher is essentially 5% more dps when their AC is in range of our attacks

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 08:07 AM
actually i think its because my attack bonus is usually significantly higher, :) each point higher is essentially 5% more dps

How the hell do you figure that? What you posted has +29 with PA on ( which you included in your damage numbers ), assuming you " get everything you want to drop for you ". Maldini's build is +28 with PA on ( with the extra damage enhancements ). SoS barb is outdamaging you by a lot more than 5%.

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 08:20 AM
Lol. Thought you might log on that one.

*pats Shroonith on head*
"It's OK. Bandy will make sure the bad barbarian with the big sword doesn't kill more monsters then your little TWFing drow. "
*puts finger to lips*
" Shhh.....go back to sleep now"

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 08:23 AM
+3 to attack from deception/backstabbing brings that to a 4 attack power difference, and deception is constantly procing. 4 attack power is 20% damage.

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 08:23 AM
+3 to attack from deception/backstabbing brings that to a 4 attack power difference, and deception is constantly procing. 4 attack power is 20% damage.

And this is the problem you have. In a perfect world, you'd get the BS bonus on every hit. But........it's not a perfect world.:D

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 08:26 AM
i pretty much do.

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 08:27 AM
i pretty much do.

Dude....I have treason on my rogue. No.....you don't.

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 08:32 AM
do u use a deception weapon in ur other hand?

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 08:35 AM
Nope. But even if you do, it's not 100%. So you can't say +20%, and you'd have to rework your original damage numbers.

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 08:40 AM
ok i will, just make a barb for me to compare to.

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 08:50 AM
Already have one. She's only lvl 3 atm though. Give me about a week, week and a half. I'll be ready.

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 08:59 AM
i meant post ur build... lol.
also post your ideal max gear and weapon

Impaqt
08-16-2007, 09:07 AM
My Rogue build Dual Weilds Treason with a Seeker+10 of Deception int he offhand.. The damage numbers are just plain Sick on a crit... Especially for a Finesse fighter (100+ Easy)

That being said, I generally pull aggro when I do that.... Where I lose my Sneak attack...

so which is it? Do you have aggro all the time (THus nullifying your sneak attack bonus') or are you doing massive damage because of your backstabber bonus?

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 09:10 AM
when deception procs it allows you to sneak attack while having agro.

EinarMal
08-16-2007, 09:13 AM
This is one of the silliest threads I have ever seen. Why are you even arguing about this.

1. The build is nothing new a strength based TWF (big deal)
2. A str based Barb with SOS outdamges everyone

The End....

Comparing sneak damage and things like that is silly that is situational and does not compare with the consistent damage over time of a max strength Barb with a SOS. You cannot count on a chance of deception firing every fight. For that matter what if the Barb has stunning blow are you going to count them getting criticals every hit? Where does that logic end maybe I have UMD and can use a hold person wand and all the mobs could roll a 1 on their saves and I can auto crit them all....

Geriant
08-16-2007, 12:05 PM
I have no dog in this fight, but I do have some nice weapons I use that happen to have deception on them. It does not proc enough for anyone to consistantly rely upon it when computing damage. Even dual-wielding them won't make that large of a difference to consider it. It's a nice bonus when it happens, but it's definitely not a common occurance.

~G

bandyman1
08-16-2007, 03:17 PM
I have no dog in this fight, but I do have some nice weapons I use that happen to have deception on them. It does not proc enough for anyone to consistantly rely upon it when computing damage. Even dual-wielding them won't make that large of a difference to consider it. It's a nice bonus when it happens, but it's definitely not a common occurance.

~G


Exactly.
Which puts the OP right where I started in my first post;
Nice build. Impressive DPS. But it doesn't match a barb.

Shade
08-16-2007, 04:23 PM
come do the reaver with me one day and well see who has agro :) (even with my treason)

Another glaring error is to think having agro on the stormreaver means your DPS is the highest.

FYI: All raid boss agro is semi random, it needs to be to present any kind of challenge, and to prevent many many exploits (which were being done often before the patch that made all there agros random) They all switch agro at some point in the fight regardless of there current "hate" levels.

Stormreaver in particularly switchs agro everytime his current target goes out of range or he simply cant seem to hit his target (IE he uses reverse gravity)
After you land he will pick a random target, maybe the cleric.. But switch to the target who generates X amount of hate on him after 5 seconds or so. After which he won't switch targets again no matter what DPS your doing, be it 1000 dmg vs 0 on the guy who got agro, not until next reverse grav.

So holding agro means you can hit him quickly, but holds no relation to dps.

Slayer918
08-16-2007, 05:10 PM
lol I could improve your DPS +3 damage w/ 1 change... and still wouldnt be close to a barb...

Best Damage Done?...

Maldini
08-16-2007, 07:40 PM
Someone post the gear of a maxed barbarian and what spells he has on, i will run the full numbers and post them here with a comparison in similar gear and spells (obivously different weapons) to my own build .

You can only compare self buffs because everyone can get group buffs.

40 Strength raged without Rage spell or Madstone.

+16 Damage with Barb PA III

Those are the only numbers you need to compare with a Barbarian.

Shroonith
08-16-2007, 09:40 PM
what weapon? - also stuff like good hope will have different effects on dps for each.

bandyman1
08-17-2007, 02:49 AM
what weapon? - also stuff like good hope will have different effects on dps for each.

It will give +2 total damage and to-hit across the board, regardless of weapon. Here's why you don't count it. You can't always depend on having a bard in party, and if he buffs you, he can also buff the barb. You could chug a pot, but so could the barb, ect., ect.

So you are back at square one.

The same goes for any other group buff.


Dude, I'm tired of this argument. You haven't proved your point to anyone with half a brain cell. You have an impressive DPS build. That would've gathered you respect here. Then you ruined it by making a half-assed claim that's it will out-damage anything in the melee game, and have argued it in the face of all logic to the contrary. You've lost the respect of anyone here with a working knowledge of the game. You cannot match a barb's DPS with that build.

Every counter you've offered has been picked apart. The original damage numbers you posted in your *proof*, had the barb using additions that he can depend on every swing. By comparison, you gave yourself modifiers that are situational, and cannot be relied upon. Then you don't wanna bring crits into the equation, when the barbarian will have the same crit range with a greataxe ( that's right, sans raid loot that you are depending on ), but is doing a hell of alot more damage than your build.

In closing; Impressive build. Impressive DPS. But it is not what it is billed to be.

Shroonith
08-17-2007, 03:25 AM
ur not too bright are you son? if i attack 7 times and i get +2 damage it WILL do something different than you attacking 4 times with +2 damage. Similarly, strength bonuses are 8/7 times as effective for a barbarian. also you have not shown me any visible refutation for anything. would you like to do this without raid loot? i can run the numbers. but i keep asking you to present a barb for me to compare. you are clearly to SCARED to post one.

bandyman1
08-17-2007, 05:03 AM
ur not too bright are you son? if i attack 7 times and i get +2 damage it WILL do something different than you attacking 4 times with +2 damage. Similarly, strength bonuses are 8/7 times as effective for a barbarian. also you have not shown me any visible refutation for anything. would you like to do this without raid loot? i can run the numbers. but i keep asking you to present a barb for me to compare. you are clearly to SCARED to post one.

Actually, I'm very intelligent, and I sure as hell ain't ( yep I'm from TN and I said it ) your son. It seems to be you that doesn't understand that YOU CANNOT USE SITUATIONAL BUFFS OR EFFECTS WHEN COMPARING DPS. I never said it wouldn't make a difference based on your number of attacks, I pointed out why you DON'T count it. Are you blind???


what weapon? - also stuff like good hope will have different effects on dps for each.

That is what you said. You WEREN'T talking about number of attacks, you were basing it off weapon type, WHERE IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. Or, you really need to think about what you are writing, because if that's what you were talking about, your sentence doesn't support the idea at all.

I don't HAVE to post a build. A build is already posted that YOU used in YOUR comparison already. And YOUR build WILL NOT out-DPS it. And in all honesty, the " Oh, you're too scared " comment goes a long way in identifying your maturity level.

Do you think you are the first Str-based, TWFing drow build out there? Good God man, have you never taken a look at the class forums before you decided to post your " bestest ever " build? Guess what? None of them have made the claim you have, BECAUSE IT'S A FALSE STATEMENT.

Every argument you have offered in defense of your bold point on this thread has been picked apart....and you are STILL arguing. I have discussions with my 6 year-old daughter in which she offers more logical counter-points than you have.

When you've " ran the numbers ", you keep insisting that you get 7 attacks for the barbarian's 4. It's already been pointed out to you that that information is false. I wish it worked that way. I really do. I have a maxed-out TWFer. Check my sig. You don't get 7 attacks in the time it takes the barb to get 4. That's been pointed out, and griped to the Devs about, since last year. It should via the descriptions of the feats, and PnP rules, but it doesn't. You also keep insisting that you get your BS bonus on every attack. Been shot down on that one too, but you still keep adding it. The damage bonus you used for the barb was non-situational. Yours was not. Pointed out, and you get ****ed. It was also generated using a standard +5 weapon. You used one of the most sought after weapons in the game for a finesse TWFer.

Say what you want man, if it wasn't for the knock on my intelligence, I wouldn't have bothered to even post again. You have an impressive TWFer. It falls short of your claim. Anyone with a working knowledge of the game who bothers to read this thread can see that. That's all that needs to be said.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
08-20-2007, 06:10 PM
This will probably upset your Drow aspirations, but the Maldini Barbarian DPS build is better than yours in my opinion. Unlike you, I wont bother "running the numbers" because there's no need to. I have a level 14 Maldini build that will send your boy to school....

Have you wondered WHY many people like the Maldini builds? Because they make good sense. They kick butt.

I like to see different builds posted, but as soon as you start claiming yours is the best you will be put in your place. Just my 2 plat.

Shroonith
08-21-2007, 04:42 AM
thats right u wont run the numbers because 1, your too stupid, and 2, the numbers show my build out dps's him. claiming theres no need to run the numbers is arguing using rhetoric, not logic. thats all everyone on this forum has done, its quite sad to see how opposed to mathematics everyone is in this forum. this game is a series of algorithms. thats all it is, hence the best way to compare is to use math. when someone posts a response that has even a semblance of evidence i will retract my claim, until then the numbers are in my favor.

Riorik
08-21-2007, 05:25 AM
Shoonith,

My suggestion is, run the numbers yourself and you'll see.

Damage from Criticals is probably the largest component of any attack chain - and getting those bonuses to doing damage is huge when they're doubled or perferably tripled. Barbarians end up winning because when they're in DPS mode, they're running around with a 40-50 strength - another +5-10 damage (yes I know it won't quite be 5-10) which translates to 15-30 extra every 3 swings - and this doesn't include Barbarian Power Attack (almost forgot)

Also - and I think you missed this, the length of time it takes to do a full 7 attack chain doing TWF is significantly longer than it takes to do a 4 attack chain with a single weapon. Yes, this shouldn't be the case, but it is. I totally forget the thread where this was shown, explained and documented - but it's very easy for you to check yourself if you took the time.

I would, however, argue that 200+ damage per swing is BS - unless that statement is presented as the typical damage including criticals - and with the crit range boosts, only approximately 1/3rd of your hits are going to be criticals - but that does probably mean 300+/attack chain is a conservative number - I could see 350-400 per 4 attack chain.

bandyman1
08-21-2007, 07:12 AM
thats right u wont run the numbers because 1, your too stupid, and 2, the numbers show my build out dps's him. claiming theres no need to run the numbers is arguing using rhetoric, not logic. thats all everyone on this forum has done, its quite sad to see how opposed to mathematics everyone is in this forum. this game is a series of algorithms. thats all it is, hence the best way to compare is to use math. when someone posts a response that has even a semblance of evidence i will retract my claim, until then the numbers are in my favor.

No, the numbers are not in your favor. The numbers you posted, that don't include crits and give you situational modifiers on every swing ( that you won't get ) while the barb has none, and 7 attacks to the barbs 4 ( which you don't get BTW :D ), and forget that glancing blows can also strike your target ( not just other creatures in the vicinity ) on the first and fourth swing of the attack chain, are in your favor.

Aspenor
08-21-2007, 08:56 AM
This build will never outdamage a properly built and equipped barbarian. That is all.

sigtrent
08-21-2007, 11:58 AM
You know gents, there is a DDO DPS calculator out there on the net, it works fairly well (and you can fudge things when needed to asjust for most changes). Any of you could just plug it all in and come up wtih some hard "evidence".

You'd have to ignore attack time differences, yes the animations vary somewhat but its not a huge difference.. and were talking builds here, so its really just theoretical anyway. In play you get so many variables its pointless to really try and do a direct compare.

Beorn_The_Bear
08-21-2007, 09:56 PM
Geeeees, are you still debating that DPS build? Go play and have some fun for crying out loud.

Katianara
08-22-2007, 10:37 AM
You guys are sure getting worked up by this Shroonith guy. He can't even type a coherent sentence.

u ur your lolzo ur ur ur lolzzzz

chewwook
08-23-2007, 10:13 AM
Does this lean even more in the favor of the barbs when they have their raging maxed crit ranges? With the decent + burst weapons now and what will come when they raise the cap, i wouldn't think anything could keep up with those numbers when you're getting crits so often.

bandyman1
08-23-2007, 10:31 AM
Does this lean even more in the favor of the barbs when they have their raging maxed crit ranges? With the decent + burst weapons now and what will come when they raise the cap, i wouldn't think anything could keep up with those numbers when you're getting crits so often.

Oh no bro. Shroonith wants to "forget about crits" in his comparison of DPS where the numbers are " in his favor ". And even though not a single person who has posted in this thread has agreed with him in his delusion, it's because we are all " too stupid " to see that he is right, and we are all wrong.

It's all right Shroon, I anwsered him for ya.....just go back to playing that game that you are playing by yourself, where noone gets crits, deception procs on every hit, and you get a full 7 swing attack sequence in the time it takes a barbarian to get 4 :D .

Snike
08-23-2007, 10:37 AM
This build is Stooopid.

Had to add this.

Grenfell
08-27-2007, 03:07 PM
Forget the Maldini SOS Barbarian, which is one of the absolute top of the DPS builds.

Can this thing really outdamage a proper THF Fighter build? Or a Dwarf Strength Ranger build?

Not sure I'm seeing it atm...

/gren

Hence
08-31-2007, 05:47 PM
The OP seems to be missing some significant enhancements to his build. For one, Barbarian Crit Enhancement is absurdly beasty. Secondly, if you wanted to even TRY and argue your TWF build is better... you should have picked up Fighter's Haste Boost IV.

The only way a fighter can compare to a barbarian is if he has the Haste boost enhancement that allows him to swing faster, therefore negating some of the Barbarians Critical Enhancement.

7 attacks with fighters haste boost IV MAY come close to a Barbarian, unless of course that Barbarian has a Sword of Shadows with a 13-20 crit range. Even a poorly built barbarian with a SoS and Critical enhancement 2 will outdamage anyone but a properly built Barbarian with a SoS.

XFracture
09-02-2007, 05:16 PM
See the sig, 'nuff said.

Borror0
09-02-2007, 09:30 PM
See the sig, 'nuff said.

Why post only to say this? Just stay away from the Classes forum if it is only to say every build was to be found one day.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-04-2007, 04:34 AM
thats right u wont run the numbers because 1, your too stupid, and 2, the numbers show my build out dps's him. claiming theres no need to run the numbers is arguing using rhetoric, not logic. thats all everyone on this forum has done, its quite sad to see how opposed to mathematics everyone is in this forum. this game is a series of algorithms. thats all it is, hence the best way to compare is to use math. when someone posts a response that has even a semblance of evidence i will retract my claim, until then the numbers are in my favor.

You are lucky I just SAW your response today. I CAN use "MATH" but I refuse to waste my time educating you about DPS, besides others here have tried to no avail. As all others have said on here, you cant out DPS Maldini's fighter or barb build. Your claim is outrageous and plain wrong. My dwarven fighter (dwarven variant of Maldinis fighter build) uses 23 different weapon types including 2 handers to devastating effect. My ac is higher and my DPS is much higher... oh and I have 398 hit points. What were your hit points again Swoosh (or whatever ya name is Jr...) You would make for a great stone to sharpen my weapons on though!

Borror0
11-04-2007, 04:40 AM
You are lucky I just SAW your response today. I CAN use "MATH" but I refuse to waste my time educating you about DPS, besides others here have tried to no avail.

I almost want to use math to show Shroonith he's wrong, but that'd be a waste of time. TWF is cool, but you'll never out-damage a Barbarian.

Emili
11-04-2007, 08:08 PM
just for comparison, lets see how this stands up to a popular barbarian build in rage an Power attack. (well turn PA on as well)

Maldini's pure dps barbarin, quoted from his own build, FULLY kitted out does +42damage, with a +5 weapon and power attack. (disclaimer: i believe this is for his human build, dwarf will do Have different numbers with a greataxe and enhancements, warforged with their PA enhancements. He also has critical rage, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=115850 for reference)
barbarians get 4 attacks, making this +168 damage in a round to a single target, assuming no crits.

we have 4 normal attacks +33 (23+5PA +5 Sneak Attack) and 3 offhand attacks +27(17+5PA +5 Sneak Attack): +132 mainhand and + 81 offhand : +213 a round.

Now i know your going to say, but wait! glancing blows do a lot of damage! omgzor! yes they do, about 40 a round to nearby enemies, but remeber that free feat? since we already have power attack, go ahead and take cleave. now you will also do 1d6+33 +1d6 from whatever element you have on your weapon in an area of effect every 5 seconds. Unlike glancing blows you are also able to critical hit on cleaved attacks. This can give you a very respectable aoe power if you desire it.


------------------------------

another quick comparison: the CON damage TWF
doing 7 con damage a round + and average (assuming rapier/shortsword with improved crit) of 6/20 x4 + 4/20 x3: 36/20: 9/5, (well make it a generous 2) crits of 1d6 con DMG per round. Thats a total of 7+2d6 con DMG, average 14 con dmg a round. on a monster with 20 HD, which is INCREDIBLY generous in current content, this would deal the equivalent of +140 points of damage, bringing it short of the Barbarian and nowhere near this build while not even taking into consideration our criticals. Indeed, a monster would have to have a massive 30HD to make the typical Wounding/puncturing build on par with this build.

(fyi: this build has an average critical damage of 4/20 x 4 x 28: 22.4 mainhand + 4/20 x 3 x 22: 13.2 = +34.6 damage a round.

the barbarian assuming a non-sword of shadows(man that things imba) greatsword /w improved crit and critical rage has (4+2)/20 x 4 x 42: +50.4 damage a round)



These comparisons are very vague indeed... a typical melee way outdoes anything here mentioned in a round. First you need to include the crit threats so add in x2 for 20% of your hits and x3 for 35% of the barbs... also when comparing a 2 handed weapon you need to multiply every hit by 1.5... It is not unusual for a fighter to breach 150hp damage for 1 swing in one out of 5 rolls average with a SoS for instance (sometimes over 160 even without rage running on them) Barbarians even moreso... 7 out of 20 swings will break the 200+ mark usually. An SoS on a barb wearing madstones - in quadruple rage +52 str - is a force not to be recogned with.

A barbarian will normally out DPS a fighter... beit TWF, 2HF or whatever, the barb delivers more average damages consitantly with higher spikes occuring more often... and generally speaking though you should have been more concise in your numbers and others would not have jumped on the chance to dispute the output of your fighter/pally. It is however a nice melee build and should be fun to play.