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BrettVe
08-13-2007, 03:25 AM
I am trying to find the right rogue build and was looking for some help.

I am told that rogues are really meant to be damage dealers and I am trying to make one that focuses on taking out enemies.

I want to make a pure build, and I like drow so far.

I am thinking about taking light repeating cross bow feat as well as two weapon (*edited*) fighting and weapon finesse.

starting stats:
10 str
18 dex
10 con
16 int
14 wis
10 chr

So far so good? Any feats to recommend?

Also as far as skills: bluff and diplomacy. Is it a good idea to get them both?
I understand that these are active skills that I need to use, but do they also have any passive help as well? What i mean by that is, if i do not ever use the diplomacy skill, will creatures be slightly less likely to attack me because of a high diplomacy?

Also it is important that I can move around traps without taking much damage, and hopefully survive in the middle of a battle due to high reflex? How much will reflex saves help me in the heat of a battle?

Thanks,
Brett

Snike
08-13-2007, 04:49 AM
Do you mean Two weapon fighting? Not many if any Two Handers work with weapon finesse.

Rindalathar
08-13-2007, 10:18 AM
Hey Brett,

IMHO, if you want a really good damage-dealing rogue I'd either concentrate on melee or ranged, so I'd re-consider taking using two feats on a repeater AND two-weapon fighting. I'd pick one and than take feats that work well with it, such as Improved Crit. Slashing with a drow rogue. Let's not forget weapon finesse as well to really take advantage of your dex. bonus. Also, I feel you could pare down on the wisdom a little and put it into strength, if you go the melee route. Yes, the Spot and will save will slightly suffer but I think a two point switch of the two will help out.

About bluff and diplomacy...yeah, I really don't think they're worth your time. Bluff might be good if you're going to take Improved Feint as a feat, but you need Combat Expertise as a prereq., plus regular bluffing only affects one target at a time and they get a save. My experiementation with bluff shows that by the time your done bluffing the mob is nearly dead anyway.

I think diplomacy on a rogue is a complete waste. To really take advantage of a rogue's damage-dealing is through his/her sneak attack and that means keeping aggro. off your back. Yes, on the surface, diplomacy sounds like the best route to achieve this, but you have the subtle backstabber enhancement to help you. Personally, learning position and aggro. management is best way I've found to really pound the baddies to induce sneak attacks. Use your skill points for something else like balance, jump or haggle.

My best advice is to not get discouraged. I find that playing a rogue is a hard job that takes a little time to really get used to and understand well. Here's to your great new rogue!

BrettVe
08-13-2007, 12:12 PM
Can you go into further detail about the position and ways to keep aggro off my back?

I figured diplomacy would be really good when i am low on health and a big monster has aggro on me. Just to keep me alive.

Someone told me that intimidate increases aggro even when you are not actively using it. Is that true? if it is then I would think diplomacy and bluff also help, albeit not as much, even when I am not actively using it. From your last message though it sounds like that is not the case.

If I had to choose, I would choose mele. Moving two points into strength, I guess I will miss a trap or two if I did that?

I tried the build for a few quests and noticed with even 16 int I was still failing on traps here and there. I did not get the skill boost enhancement yet though.

BrettVe
08-13-2007, 12:17 PM
Do you mean Two weapon fighting? Not many if any Two Handers work with weapon finesse.

Yes i meant two weapon fighting.

You are right, there are no two handed weapons that work with weapon finesse.

Impaqt
08-13-2007, 12:33 PM
Your INT has Very Little to do with your Disable Divice Skill... Sure the Modifier adds... but at the end of the road, your gonna have a +5.. Maybe a +6 to your DD SKill from Int... 6 Points out of 50+

Better Tools, Better DD Item, Buffs like Prayer, Heroism......

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Repeating Crossbow is interesting at the low levels, but quickly gets overshadowed as you progress.

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Take a look at my Death Dealer build linked in my sig. A Pure rogue may be able to do close to the damage potential..... But at a Sacrifice of Rogue skills. My build offers exceptional rogue Skills while maximizing damage potential.

Juika
08-13-2007, 02:02 PM
Your failing traps for two reasons:

Running quests higher level than you
Not enough +gear yet (disable, tools, etc.)

Rogues are crazy weak at low levels and weaker again at 9-11 (when the DCs start to outpace your skills again).

My original 28 point human rogue went TWF, Finesse, Precision, ITWF, IC:P

At lvl 12 I originally picked up repeater feat, but soon dropped it for IC:P

At lvl 14 I do crazy damage using a pair of holy xx of pure good, or a pair of flaming xx of puncturing, or even a cursespewer and paralyzer (swapped out of destruction).

The bulk of your damage is going to come from your sneak attack bonus and to a lesser extent your mods (fire, frost, good, etc.)

Unless you run with a decent guild all the time who understands your build, playstyle you absolutely cannot neglect your rogue skills. Noone picks up a rogue in a PUG for dps, and if you cannot do the basic rogue skills job, you will not be getting many repeat invites.

At lvl 14, and a 30 dex, I never use precision anymore, but I dont think I could have survived without it during the 9-12 range.

I believe if I ever have the gumption to reroll my rogue as a drow TWFer, here is what I would do:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.65
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(14 Rogue)
Hit Points: 104
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 4
Reflex: 16
Will: 4

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 10 10 10
Dexterity 18 21 25
Constitution 10 10 10
Intelligence 18 18 18
Wisdom 10 10 10
Charisma 10 10 10

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 8 24 24
Bluff 0 0 0
Concentration 0 0 0
Diplomacy 4 17 17
Disable Device 8 21 24
Haggle 4 17 17
Heal 0 0 0
Hide 8 24 24
Intimidate 0 0 0
Jump 4 17 17
Listen 3 16 18
Move Silently 8 24 24
Open Lock 8 24 24
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 4 4 4
Search 8 21 28
Spot 4 17 24
Swim 0 0 0
Tumble 5 8 8
Use Magic Device 4 17 17

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Precision

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence I
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Search III
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot III
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II



Stats:

Str 10(+4) = 14: Is there for encumberance and to a lesser extent dmg (which is cut in half while precision is on). The bulk of your damage comes from your craaazy sneak attack (6d6 base, not cut in 1/2 from precision).

Dex 25(+5 item) (+2 favor tome) = 32: Can we say +11?!? Once you hit 30 Dex you are into wearing robes in order to keep your max dex bonus, and since you chose Finesse, your using your Dex bonus for your +hit instead of your Str.

Con 10(+4 item) = 14: Will give you 132 HPs +10 GH favor +30 Greater False Life = 172 HPs. The idea is not to get 1 shot by beholders, giants, ogres, etc.

Int 18: Skill Points are based on base stat only. Skills matter! All the rogue biggies are maxed. Diplo is maxed. Hide and Move Silently are maxed (more on this later). Tumble is not... 1 point for the cool animation and the ability to tumble while hamstrung, slowed, stenched, etc. at full speed, FF item negates taking this anymore.

Wis 10(+4 item) = 14: Gives you an additional +2 to your spot skill and will save
Cha 10(+4 item) = 14: +2 to UMD, Haggle, Diplo

On MS/Hide, my original build stopped putting points into it pretty early, didnt see the point to it. My 14 ranger has it maxxed and I can stealth hump undead, GH critters, etc. without being seen. Stealth is amazing in the right areas and quite necessary when you decide to start soloing content for favor later on.
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BAB
10 +11dex +4 precision +5 weapon -2 twf : 28 (sneak attack and flanking add another +4! 32
10 +11dex +4 precision +5 weapon -2 twf: 28 (sneak attack and flanking add another +4! 32

15 +11dex +4 precision +5 weapon -2 twf: 33(sneak attack and flanking add another +4! 37

20 +11dex +4 precision +5 weapon -2 twf: 38 (sneak attack and flanking add another +4! 42


Buffs just raise it higher, you could seriously drop the precision at 13-14 and pick up another feat of your choice
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Weapon selection:

Debuffing weapons are the bomb for a rogue. Grab yourself a cursespewer and destruction/ strength sapping, etc. and turn nasty monsters into kittens for the rest of your party. Your sneak attack dmg makes up for the lack of elemental mods and you get the added bonus of making the entire party more effective. Stat dmg weapons would be a second choice as long as you use a pair of em on the same stat.
Once you no longer need the precision to hit reliably, get yourself a rapier with as many dmg mods as you can find when you want to pour on the dps.
My favorite combo though is still a +2 curspewing short sword of righteousness and a +1 paralyzing dagger.



Hope this helps

BrettVe
08-13-2007, 04:05 PM
Wow thanks man.

I noticed you did not take advantage of the Drows natural bonuses to rapiers and short swords in your enhancements. That seemed an obvious pick.

Also 18 int? wow, with 16 i nearly maxed every skill i would need. Also it seems like you did not use all of your skill points on the generator anyway. Is the 18 mostly for the bonus to disable device?

Somehow you put 8 points into disable device on your first level. I think you can only put four.

ArkoHighStar
08-13-2007, 05:10 PM
if you take the enhancements to rapiers and short swords only take the attack bonus ones as the damage bonus is worthless, improved crit pierce would be a help as a rapier has a crit range of 15-20 with this feat.

With a dex of 30 you have a +10 to armor bonus, with +5 armor bracers, you have the equivalent of a +5 mithril chain shirt, with a +6 you have a better AC thean the mithril chain shirt. This is only at very high levels so you will probably be wearing armor till at least lvl 11.

18 int starting is on the high side and the 2 points can be put to con instead.

ArkoHighStar
08-13-2007, 05:15 PM
Wow thanks man.

I noticed you did not take advantage of the Drows natural bonuses to rapiers and short swords in your enhancements. That seemed an obvious pick.

Also 18 int? wow, with 16 i nearly maxed every skill i would need. Also it seems like you did not use all of your skill points on the generator anyway. Is the 18 mostly for the bonus to disable device?

Somehow you put 8 points into disable device on your first level. I think you can only put four.


the 8 would include the +4 bonus from 18 int, the 18 int would be for the bonus to skill points for every base bonus you get an extra skill point per lvl

Juika
08-13-2007, 05:16 PM
The 8 points thing is showing the stat bonus included.

I did pick up the 1st enhancement to Drow melee attack, the 4 points for an additional +1 was spent on Sneak Attack Accuracy II for an additional +3 instead. Drow Melee I & II isnt really needed when ur sporting a 32 Dex =).

You could certainly drop the Int to 16 and free up 4 more build points. Take Con & Wis to 12 each. You gain +1 fort and +1 will save, 14HPs but lose 17 skill points and 1 to your DD. Picking one way over the other isnt going drastically alter anything.

I forgot to add in the +1 to hit for SS or rapier in the BAB chart in my first response btw.

All 56 Enhancement Points were used.