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Gimpster
08-12-2007, 12:12 PM
Turbine has announced that module 5 will include a new system to price the spellpoint cost of metamagic feats. Instead of being multiplicative (*1.5 for Extend), it will be additive (+10 for Extend). This means that where once metamagics had the same costs regardless of spell level, they are now cheaper for high-level spells but more expensive on low levels.

Although it probably wasn't an intentional goal of the change, this new system substantially nerfs the combat abilities of Paladins as compared to fighters and barbarians. Paladins use the level 1 Divine Favor spell to keep their damage effective compared to barbs with Rage and fighters with Weapon Specialization. A paladin who today can cast 13 Extended DFs (for a total of 26 minutes combat buff) will only be able to cast 10 under the new system, reducing the time he is an effective combatant by 24%. (And forcing him to zerg through quests more rapidly to ensure completion before losing power).

Suggestion
Price all metamagic spells under the new or old system, whichever is less. That is, the Extend Spell feat will be changed to say "Increases the sp cost by +10 or +50%, whichever is less". Likewise, Empower spell will become "Increases the sp cost by +15 or +100%, whichever is less".

This way, the (apparent) goal of decreasing the cost to metamagic a high-level spell can still be achieved, without directly nerfing those classes who rely on metamagiced level 1 spells throughout their career. Additionally, this variantion will be more lenient towards low-level casters of any class, who will be able to boost their Shield and Burning Hands effects without breaking the bank.

Aspenor
08-12-2007, 12:13 PM
This is probably a good idea. Low level spells got the shaft with the new metamagic.

Symar-FangofLloth
08-12-2007, 12:26 PM
Gasp. Your paladin actually took extend?
Anyway, they could just code the effective level-bump costs in, like in tabletop. Although we'd still have pricier low level spells with that.

Vua
08-12-2007, 01:13 PM
Why do we always need to have our cake and eat it too. Paladins that use extended divine favor are probably zergers already since it's a complete waste to extend that spell 95% of the time. Cast it without extend as you come to fights and you have plenty of them. Since this won't effect real casters in any real way this is a moot point.

Riggs
08-12-2007, 01:53 PM
Why do we always need to have our cake and eat it too. Paladins that use extended divine favor are probably zergers already since it's a complete waste to extend that spell 95% of the time. Cast it without extend as you come to fights and you have plenty of them. Since this won't effect real casters in any real way this is a moot point.

Umm...real casters dont use extend maximize or empower? On like say;

Shield, Nightshield, Magic missle, Scorching Ray, Charm person, Burning hands, Web, Resist Energy, Ottos dance, Hypnotic pattern, Shocking Grasp, Divine favor(for clerics) and a few others i am sure.

If a casters doesnt use any of those spells even at level 14, then they are not really a 'real' caster. If they do use them, the spells are getting hit hard by the new system.

rikori2
08-12-2007, 01:55 PM
Gasp. Your paladin actually took extend?
Anyway, they could just code the effective level-bump costs in, like in tabletop. Although we'd still have pricier low level spells with that.

That's almost what they did. +1 spell level = +5 sp. For example, empower spell in tabletop gives +2 effective spell level. So that's like it costing +10 sp.

Symar-FangofLloth
08-12-2007, 01:55 PM
But, higher spells get a cost break. So you save sp in the long run.

Gimpster
08-12-2007, 02:04 PM
That's almost what they did. +1 spell level = +5 sp.
That's not at all what they did. DDO's new metamagic system is less like the D&D system, not more.

Current DDO system: Maximized Empowered Disintegrate is painfully expensive, and has less damage-per-mana than regular.
New DDO system: Maximized Empower Disintegrate is expensive, but has more damage-per-mana than regular.
D&D system: Maximized Empowered Disintegrate is absolutely impossible for any non-epic sorcerer to cast.

DDO's new system not only allows the use of high-power metamagic combos that are illegal in D&D, but it actually encourages them by making them the most cost-effective choices.

Mad_Bombardier
08-12-2007, 02:42 PM
While I recognize the added difficulty in coding, I fully support the combination of the two metamagic systems: lesser of +x or +y% SP for ALL metamagics. The new metamagic system does have average savings for high spell level casters, but is cost prohibitive for low spell level casters (Bards, Paladins, and Rangers).

negative
08-12-2007, 03:17 PM
Honestly, I really dislike this idea. Balance issues aside, it's just too complicated. Rediculously complicated. The metamagics need a single way to work, period. That doesn't mean the new or old system is the right way to do it, but you shouldn't use both systems and take whichever benifits the player more. It's a bad game mechanic that way, and horribly complicated.

And honestly, the only two real differences between the new system and PnP are that you aren't limited by effective casting level of the spell vs. max level of spell you can cast.

The other major issue, which is more related to the OP, is that most feats, such as extend, empower, etc, are costing an extra +5 SP (one spell slot higher) more than they would in PnP. This, of course, is what is driving these types of posts. I would hazard to guess this increased cost is to somewhat offset the difference I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Dwolf
08-13-2007, 10:42 AM
Want to make metamagic and spell casting more in line with PnP - do it this way.

There's a set cost to each level of spells. Add metamagics brings the spell point cost of the spell up a level or two. If extend adds one level to the effective spell level, a first level extended spell costs 15 instead of 10.

Then cap the maximum spell points you can use on any one spell based on your caster level. This way you can't cast a maximized/empowered fireball at level 5 - you couldn't pump out that many xp's at once.

Set up a line of enhancements that increases the upper range of sp you can spend per spell. Make it interesting - rather than having it work across the board tie it to specific spell casting schools to make it more like specialization.

The only draw back in this is how "improved maximize" etc work. But i can see feats that would allow metamagics that would normally add one to the spell level stack for free - so that the feat means no extra cost for extending (or enlarging) all magic and a reduced cost for maximizing or empowering.

This would probably be the best most balanced way for dealing with the whole meta thing, which of course is why it's likely to get ignored.

Baryn
08-13-2007, 10:51 AM
*snip*
Paladins use the level 1 Divine Favor spell to keep their damage effective compared to barbs with Rage and fighters with Weapon Specialization. A paladin who today can cast 13 Extended DFs (for a total of 26 minutes combat buff) will only be able to cast 10 under the new system, reducing the time he is an effective combatant by 24%. (And forcing him to zerg through quests more rapidly to ensure completion before losing power).

*snip*


There is no reason to ALWAYS have a Divine Favor constantly casted. A mob here and there, or a small group of mobs can be easily dispatched by the group, and isn't much of a big deal.

While it is nice to have that extra to-hit and damage, it's really not critical, and if you are having that much of a problem already, isn't going to make or break you.

Before any real sizable battles or boss battles, and right after your caster throws some crowd control and a haste, throw on a DF and go crazy.

And yes, I've had a 14/Pal for quite a while.

Mercules
08-13-2007, 10:57 AM
That's not at all what they did. DDO's new metamagic system is less like the D&D system, not more.

Current DDO system: Maximized Empowered Disintegrate is painfully expensive, and has less damage-per-mana than regular.
New DDO system: Maximized Empower Disintegrate is expensive, but has more damage-per-mana than regular.
D&D system: Maximized Empowered Disintegrate is absolutely impossible for any non-epic sorcerer to cast.

DDO's new system not only allows the use of high-power metamagic combos that are illegal in D&D, but it actually encourages them by making them the most cost-effective choices.

Yep, so really they should limit what you can use it on by limiting you to spending the maximum SPs you could for your level. If you could cast a level 7 spell then you could cast a non-metamagiced 7th level or any spell with any meta magics that add up to a total of 40 SPs. That would make it more like PnP D&D.

Cowdenicus
08-13-2007, 11:20 AM
Get this.

The new metamagic system is an enhancement for the PRIMARY casting classes, i.e wizzies, sorcs, clerics (and soon to be druids)

That is what is important, not some pallies or rangers whining about a buff. Guess what you are not a primary casting class, get over it.

jkm
08-13-2007, 12:53 PM
well, you could do the code as follows:

extend = min(1.5 * spell point cost, 10)

that would fix the 1st and 2nd level spells especially for low level toons

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 02:21 PM
The new metamagic system is an enhancement for the PRIMARY casting classes, i.e wizzies, sorcs, clerics (and soon to be druids)
Wrong. It is a NERF for low-level characters of all those classes. Wizards at level 1-5 will find their metamagiced spells MORE expensive, not less.


That is what is important, not some pallies or rangers whining about a buff. Guess what you are not a primary casting class, get over it.
There is no way to make a logical step from:
1. Paladins are not primary spellscasters
to
2. Paladins should be effective in melee for 24% less time than they are now.

Gimpster
08-13-2007, 02:24 PM
There is no reason to ALWAYS have a Divine Favor constantly casted. A mob here and there, or a small group of mobs can be easily dispatched by the group, and isn't much of a big deal.
There is no reason to ALWAYS have your armor on. A mob here and there, or a small group of mobs isn't a big deal.


While it is nice to have that extra to-hit and damage, it's really not critical
The fact that something "isn't critical" still doesn't make it a good change.

GeneralDiomedes
08-13-2007, 02:43 PM
Wrong. It is a NERF for low-level characters of all those classes. Wizards at level 1-5 will find their metamagiced spells MORE expensive, not less.

Actually Maximize has savings starting with 2nd level spells, castable at level 3.

As for the basic premise, most people play the game with casters that are higher than 5th level. Most people > 5 gain, some people <=5 lose. I see a net gain.

Snike
08-13-2007, 03:26 PM
Make the currect listed numbers for change standard for Level 5 spells. and adjust -1 / +1 for spell level.

Pharaz
08-13-2007, 04:03 PM
I've stated this before, but will repeat some for yet another thread.

Just make a 2 AP enhancement that reduces the cost to a specific metamagic feat by 5 sp to 1st and if needed 2nd level spells.

Vua
08-13-2007, 04:54 PM
Umm...real casters dont use extend maximize or empower? On like say;

Shield, Nightshield, Magic missle, Scorching Ray, Charm person, Burning hands, Web, Resist Energy, Ottos dance, Hypnotic pattern, Shocking Grasp, Divine favor(for clerics) and a few others i am sure.

If a casters doesnt use any of those spells even at level 14, then they are not really a 'real' caster. If they do use them, the spells are getting hit hard by the new system.

Did you actually look at what the spell point costs are going to be for using metamagics? While all the first level spells you listed are going to cost 5 points more using a metamagic feat, only extend is going to continue to cost more at second level, a whopping 3 points. Using empower on 2nd level spells breaks even in the new system, and you are already saving 5 spell points using maxamize on level 2 spells. At level 3 extend breaks even in the new system and you save on both of the others.

So using the spells you listed, yes you lose a bit with most of those listed but start saving at level 2 spells and you only save more the higher level you use. So if you actually feel you are being cheated out of 5 spell points on an extended charm, rejoice that you can now cast a maximized/empowered Cone of Cold for 75 spell points when it used to cost 120.


These numbers were posted by JKM in a discussion on the sorcerer forums. Don't want to steal someone elses work.

Extend
1st level -> current 15 spell points, new 20 sps
2nd level -> current 22sp now 25sp
3rd level -> current 30 spell points, now 30 spell points
4th level -> current 38 spell points new 35 points
5th level -> current 45 spell points new 40 spell points
6th level -> current 53 spell points new 45 spell points
7th level -> current 60 spell points new 50 spell points

empower +15 sps

1st level = before 20 now 25
2nd level = before 30 now 30
3rd level = before 40 now 35
4th level = before 50 now 40
5th level = before 60 now 45
6th level = before 70 now 50
7th level = before 80 now 55

maximize +25 sps
1st level = before 30 now 35
2nd level = before 45 now 40
3rd level = before 60 now 45
4th level = before 75 now 50
5th level = before 90 now 55
6th level = before 105 now 60
7th level = before 120 now 65

Now tell me how much that affects "real" casters? Oh yeah it will make you more powerful.