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Dark-Star
08-11-2007, 04:30 PM
I have always played melee toons, and this will be my first caster. Friends I have talked to in game mostly prefer sorcs over wizards for pure killing power.

Drow over other races also seems preferential.

What I am looking to build is a character that is primarily a killing machine, and I think from grouping in the end game with casters that I want my focus to be on PK, FoD, and the fire spells (wall and ray primarily). Flesh to stone also perhaps.

So I started a drow sorc, and compared to my other characters, so far anyway, she is majorly squishy- to the point where it's not that fun to play her.

The idea of self heals really appeals to me, so using a Warforged seems a natural fit for that. The issue is that WF, due to their charisma penalty, seem more suited to wizards than sorcerers.

I have really no experience with either class yet, just impressions from watching people and asking questions.

So on to my questions:

1. Does a WF's 4 fewer Cha than a Drow make it not viable as a PK/FoD user in elite end game quests? Does the 4 cha make a big difference?

2. The biggest issue I see with going wiz over sorc is the cool down. How long is the cool down on PK, Sorching Ray, and FoD for wizards? And what is it for Sorcs?

3. Given the cooldown, do you level 14 wizards find you can kill fast enough using PK and FoD alternately in quests in Giant Hold for instance?

4. Can a PK/FoD focused wiz out kill a sorc with the same focus?

5. In your opinion, does the self healing aspect of a warforged outwiegh the extra cha of a Drow?

6. If I were to go wizard, is going one level of rogue at the start a good or bad idea? My goal will not be to do rogue skills, it is for UMD. So given only doing it for UMD, is giving up the extra 70 SPs and the 1 level 6 & 7 spells worth it?

7. Given question six, is low 20's UMD needed/worth it on a WF wizard?

8. Lastly, for those that have played both a wizard and a sorc to 14, especially WF and/or Drow, what did you prefer in the end and why?

Thanks for your time, posting this in the Sorc forum as well.

Locathus
08-11-2007, 04:53 PM
To answer each of your questions:

1. The 4 Cha does make a difference in spell DCs and spell points available. I would definitely not recommend a WF Sorc.

2. I don't know the exact times off-hand, but the Sorc has faster (better) cooldowns than the wizard - and the difference is noticeable (I've played on a friend's toon just to check it out).

3. I have no problem keeping up by alternating spells. For reference, I usually alternate FoD with FtS since PK gives an additional Will save.

4. Assuming good players in both cases, no. The Sorc will cast more of them and cast faster. Both players can get their casting stat to the same level, so there shouldn't be any difference in DCs or anything.

5. You can use pots for self-healing. I burn them all the time. It isn't quite as effective, but it works. In addition, you can get a very good UMD as a sorc, so instead of using repair wands on yourself you can UMD a healing wand.

6. If you are only doing it for UMD, my vote is no. The extra spell slots are one of the main benefits the wizard has over the sorcerer. And I've never had a problem with being squishy. :)

7. Needed, no. Worth it? Hmm...my vote is no, since you can use pots instead of wands and save yourself the hassle.

8. Haven't played both extensively.

Based on your stated goal of wanting to specialize in PK/FoD with a few other spells thrown in, plus some self-healing, I would recommend you build a Drow Sorcerer. If you want more flexibility or REALLY think you need the self-healing spells you can go with a Wizard, but just judging by this one post I think you'll enjoy the sorcerer more.

Good luck, and let us know how it works out. :)

Epsilom
08-11-2007, 05:28 PM
1. Does a WF's 4 fewer Cha than a Drow make it not viable as a PK/FoD user in elite end game quests? Does the 4 cha make a big difference?

Kind of.. it can be supplimented by penetration focus/items to an extent.


2. The biggest issue I see with going wiz over sorc is the cool down. How long is the cool down on PK, Sorching Ray, and FoD for wizards? And what is it for Sorcs?

Sorcs alot faster about 1/2 or 1 second on most things.Noticable.


3. Given the cooldown, do you level 14 wizards find you can kill fast enough using PK and FoD alternately in quests in Giant Hold for instance?

Is it ever fast enough?


4. Can a PK/FoD focused wiz out kill a sorc with the same focus?

That depends on their Int/Charisma bonus and items.


5. In your opinion, does the self healing aspect of a warforged outwiegh the extra cha of a Drow?

Personally life insurance is better than a fast car. I have a macro that says "Please don't heal me unless i'm almost dead or incap" that i use at the start of quests. You can take the burden off the cleric by self-healing. Also if you're alive you can kill more than if you're a ghost with a Full SP bar.
Again penetration feats and items can save the charisma hit some.


6. If I were to go wizard, is going one level of rogue at the start a good or bad idea? My goal will not be to do rogue skills, it is for UMD. So given only doing it for UMD, is giving up the extra 70 SPs and the 1 level 6 & 7 spells worth it?

Don't gimp yourself... stay pure or you will not see the best spells in the game at the top end. If you want UMD make a sorcerer, can get mine to 30 at lvl 14 pure sorc.


7. Given question six, is low 20's UMD needed/worth it on a WF wizard?

Honestly.. what is there to UMD? most uber +6 stuff is RR Warforged anyway!! :p


8. Lastly, for those that have played both a wizard and a sorc to 14, especially WF and/or Drow, what did you prefer in the end and why?

I have two lvl 14 WF wizards. One 14 WF sorcerer.
I started a WF wizard in preview weekend, so i'm not someone following the Current WF Caster Trend that so many are, and have raised 3 to cap, battling WF prejudice (yes it's true) and rustmonsters since before this even went live.
I am GLAD i made my wizards first because i learnt what spell work in what situations, on what mobs. Sorc is harder in lower levels because of spell limitations,you need to know what spells are used for each situation.

Wizard is better at being ready for anything, but only really has versatility over a sorcerer.
Sorc is better for nuking and straight killing.
Ultimately over Three lvl 14 WF casters, i choose...
... The Sorcerer!
Why? Spell Points!
My sorc has almost 800 more spellpoints than my wizard, and has enough umd to res on a 12

I'd say take a Wizard first so you can use all the spells and mess with different techniques. A sorcerers role is a little less forgiving when it comes to swaping spells.


Thanks for your time, posting this in the Sorc forum as well.

No worries ;)

DemonMage
08-11-2007, 05:38 PM
Honestly.. what is there to UMD? most uber +6 stuff is RR Warforged anyway!!

Doesn't hurt to be able to use Cure wands, you can potion, and I suppose for most of us the savings isn't that big of a deal, but it doesn't hurt -- plus you can wand others (say if someone gets incapacitated). Obviously less of a deal for a Warforged, but being able to save someone else could come in handy. Besides, as a wizard, at least, you'll have more skill points than you know what to do with. Concentration, Balance, UMD, Jump, that takes care of a lot of the more useful skills right there, with plenty left over for the ones you like. (And yes I know you were kidding to some extent, and Dark-Star's reg date implies he's far from new, but still!)



4. Can a PK/FoD focused wiz out kill a sorc with the same focus?
That depends on their Int/Charisma bonus and items.

Boo nested quotes, but context is important. I'd say your biggest issue here is going to be mana. A wizard is going to have around 2/3rds the mana pool of a Sorc, so after you're both done buffing, they're still going to have a large chunk more mana to freely blast away at anything that moves. Are you gimped? Far from it, but a wizard has less mana to indiscriminately blast away at single targets in many quests.

Blind_Skwerl
08-11-2007, 06:37 PM
Answered in the sorcerer forum. Good luck!

Oran_Lathor
08-12-2007, 03:52 PM
Wizard is better at being ready for anything, but only really has versatility over a sorcerer.
Sorc is better for nuking and straight killing.
Ultimately over Three lvl 14 WF casters, i choose...
... The Sorcerer!
Why? Spell Points!
My sorc has almost 800 more spellpoints than my wizard, and has enough umd to res on a 12


Not really disagreeing with Reever's opinion here, but just want to go ahead and point out how a well built and equipped drow wizard can compare here. My new(er) drow wizard has 1316 SP with a dragon's eye (magi), which is more like 500 sp less than a twinked sorc, not 800. He has 186 unbuffed hit points, which is enough (with stoneskin, heavy fort etc) to shield block in his firewalls without dying on elite. He can UMD cure mod wands failing only on a 1, and rez scrolls on a roll of 15 (to the above sorc's 12). Granted needing a 15 to rez kinda sucks, but it helps in a pinch, and it's not often I need to attempt a scroll as I have a couple of rez rings.

Does this compensate enough? Not sure, but keep in mind the wizard will be able to maintain maximum dcs with spell focus feats and still have feats left over for max/empower for the walls and rays. A sorceror could take all of those as well of course, but they'd be sacrificing mental toughnesses, which would leave the SP difference around 350 instead of 500.

In the end, despite all this, if all you really want to do is Pk/Fod and wall of fire/ray... you may well be best off as a sorc :)

Anywho, best of luck with whatever you decide.

Deusxmachina
08-12-2007, 05:37 PM
Random tidbits:

If you want a FoD/PK or whatever kind of one-shot killing machine, -4 to your main stat hurts. A lot.

Rogue just for UMD? Meh. It wouldn't really hurt since you'll still get your highest level spells, just less spell slots. Can't say I'd bother with rogue at all unless wanting to also do traps or two levels for evasion. I generally don't think it's worth the bother just for UMD, but it depends what you're trying to do with the character.

I think UMD or WF or whatever just for self-healing is a waste in most cases due to one reason if nothing else: you probably don't have many hitpoints. Being able to pop off a Heal from a scroll is nice and all, but if a one-finger wizard/sorc is getting whacked that hard, he's probably dead in another two seconds anyway.

Cure Serious potions aren't bad when you don't have a lot of hp. And if he's a more buff caster with lots of hp, he can probably hang in there long enough to kill what's hitting him. Just be sure to not be a scrooge when it comes to using cure potions. Self-healing is great, but potions should be good enough for one-finger casters who aren't on the front lines.

Epsilom
08-13-2007, 06:30 AM
If you want a FoD/PK or whatever kind of one-shot killing machine, -4 to your main stat hurts. A lot.
It's not that big of a deal..i can almost insta-cast PK straight after missing FoD. Count a +2 tome also.


I think UMD or WF or whatever just for self-healing is a waste in most cases due to one reason if nothing else: you probably don't have many hitpoints.

I have my HP at about 220. That's not normal for a fleshie caster unless you waste alot of points in Con.
The capability to do a Reconstruct fully healing you from 1 HP is a definate bonus that no fleshie can ever benefit from. Hence it's underrated because most people *still* don't have a WF character.


Self-healing is great, but potions should be good enough for one-finger casters who aren't on the front lines.
I have repair wands, repair pots, and 3 repair spells loaded. If i could get by just using potions alone and relying on a Cleric to heal me, i would.
Also remember some clerics still have an issue with healing WF characters.
Being a WF caster is a way to avoid that static.

Epsilom
08-13-2007, 07:21 AM
My new(er) drow wizard has 1316 SP with a dragon's eye (magi), which is more like 500 sp less than a twinked sorc, not 800
Against my WF (-2) sorc that may be true(i didn't add any items into my post). But against a Drow Sorcerer with a wizardry 6 item (since we're including items) and you are still about 750 Sp off.

My 32-point WF (Four+1 tomes +2 Int) Wiz has imp mental tough and a magi item and has about 1247 sp. With a ring of spell storing it brings it to almost the same as yours. We have similaraities as Wizards in that way i think, still when i log onto my Wiz i know i have to be a scrooge with SP. I am pro-wizard don't get me wrong :P
It's just that much easier to do everything with the bigger "fuel-tank" ..the key to Sorc is knowing what spells to take at what lvls imo, but maybe should start as Wiz to become familiar with it all.
A wizard has had to spend 2 feats on Mental Toughness (tho Wiz get more feats) to even be 750 Sp short of a twinked drow sorc.I dunno.. i think either way is still good, it comes down to how you play it :)


He has 186 unbuffed hit points, which is enough (with stoneskin, heavy fort etc) to shield block in his firewalls without dying on elite.

A warforged has (as you may know)...many immunities... These abilities contribute greatly to staying alive, a Drow SR is single item replaceable, but you'd need a few free slots to get all the natural WF immunes. WF have a much higher potential for HP than Drow for sure, and buffs are the same power no matter what your Charisma/Int bonus.

He can UMD cure mod wands failing only on a 1, and rez scrolls on a roll of 15 (to the above sorc's 12).I have a couple of rez rings.
Here's the standoff,

*Arcane Warforged Reconstructing at lvl 14*VS*Cure-Mod-Wand UMD Healing at lvl 14*

we don't need to pull out the stats to see the outcome of most effective heals.
I'll double check my UMD... don't know if i had GHero and Cartouche on... now we're talking about Items in the calculations... it opens up another whole set of scores and stats. I wouldn't give a huge list of what i could potentially use in items to uberfy myself even more for 2 reasons.

1 - It's not a competition, it's a game i like
2 - I'd hate to think 100 copycats abused the knowledge for the power of evhul ;>




In the end, despite all this, if all you really want to do is Pk/Fod and wall of fire/ray... you may well be best off as a sorc :)

Yeah i think so too if all he wants is to FoD/PK.
Dark-Star - my opinion would be to make a Wizard first either way, so you can test all the spells for yourself, there's alot more a caster can be than a phantasmal fingerer.

Draclaud
08-13-2007, 02:25 PM
So on to my questions:

1. Does a WF's 4 fewer Cha than a Drow make it not viable as a PK/FoD user in elite end game quests? Does the 4 cha make a big difference?

HUGE difference. Not only for the DC but with the loss of sp.

2. The biggest issue I see with going wiz over sorc is the cool down. How long is the cool down on PK, Sorching Ray, and FoD for wizards? And what is it for Sorcs?

Dunno about the wizard but with the Sorc I have I alternate between hieghtened PK and Fod and going 1,2 between them there IS no cool down. They hit automatically

3. Given the cooldown, do you level 14 wizards find you can kill fast enough using PK and FoD alternately in quests in Giant Hold for instance?

Sorry not a wizard player

4. Can a PK/FoD focused wiz out kill a sorc with the same focus?

I seriously doubt it, because the Sorc will hit twice per the wizards once due to the cooldown issues, and can cast twice as many of them due to the HUGE spell point difference.

5. In your opinion, does the self healing aspect of a warforged outwiegh the extra cha of a Drow?

Nope. Going Drow is like getting a free spell focus on EVERY SPELL :)

6. If I were to go wizard, is going one level of rogue at the start a good or bad idea? My goal will not be to do rogue skills, it is for UMD. So given only doing it for UMD, is giving up the extra 70 SPs and the 1 level 6 & 7 spells worth it?

If you're going to do that it makes more sense to go one bard level, them sorc due to UMD being a CHA based skill. I can't see going wizard for a UMDer

7. Given question six, is low 20's UMD needed/worth it on a WF wizard?

Considering you need a 38 to use a raise dead scroll...would it be worth it to you to blow 9 out of ten scrolls?

8. Lastly, for those that have played both a wizard and a sorc to 14, especially WF and/or Drow, what did you prefer in the end and why?

Thanks for your time, posting this in the Sorc forum as well.

Oran_Lathor
08-13-2007, 03:44 PM
Would just like to point out that I agree with everything Epsilom says. Epsilom, sorry if it seemed like I was disputing your points. Both builds have their advantages; drow a minor SP/DC advantage, WF a significant durability/survivability advantage. It all comes down to play styles... Personally I prefer the added challenge of playing my drow as if he were a giant robot without having to tax my guild's clerics ;)

One question though, as I don't personally have a high level sorceror. How many SP does a 14 sorc have,with magi, 34 cha, and mental toughnesses? I was under the impression that it came out to ~1840, or a 500ish difference. Perhaps I am mistaken.

Peace,
Cindar

PS: I have a spell storer too, don't leave home without one!

Deusxmachina
08-13-2007, 06:39 PM
It's not that big of a deal..i can almost insta-cast PK straight after missing FoD. Count a +2 tome also.

Yes, and then you can have a -2 to miss on that second use of sp, too. Against tough opponents, which is really what matters, that can be a very big deal.



I have my HP at about 220. That's not normal for a fleshie caster unless you waste alot of points in Con.
The capability to do a Reconstruct fully healing you from 1 HP is a definate bonus that no fleshie can ever benefit from. Hence it's underrated because most people *still* don't have a WF character.

My fleshie caster has 250+ hp with a +5 con item and before any other buffs or items. Even 250 is a decent amount to outlast the mobs in most fights and then drink a couple gallons of potions afterwards. That's with a "standing your ground in your own firewall" type of fighting. (In other words, he's an aggro machine.). A caster who jumps around or hangs out in the back more wouldn't be getting hit anywhere near as much.

Obviously, I'd love if he could whip out Heal scrolls or Reconstruct, at certain times it would have saved his life. I have to question if those things are *that* great for a caster who plans on staying in the back and one-shotting people. For a battle mage or a fireball-slinger, both of whom can draw massive amounts of aggro compared to a one-shotter, the self-healing can come in more handy. But if a one-shotter is not an aggro machine, self-healing is less valuable if for no other reason than that it will be needed less often.

Really, it just comes down to "there's no free lunch" and what strengths and weaknesses a player wants a character to have. A dead caster doesn't kill anything, but then again self-healing is sp not used for killing, and it's time not used to continue trying to one-shot that thing that's hitting you in the face while you try to cast a reconstruct and which you still have to kill after you get the reconstruct off.



I have repair wands, repair pots, and 3 repair spells loaded. If i could get by just using potions alone and relying on a Cleric to heal me, i would.
Also remember some clerics still have an issue with healing WF characters.
Being a WF caster is a way to avoid that static.

The argument there of course is if you're not a WF in the first place then a cleric wouldn't have those issues with healing you. And those are spell slots that could be loaded with something else. WF casters can be great, I think the self-healing is less valuable on a one-shotter than it is on other types of playstyles is all.

Seneca_Windforge
08-14-2007, 05:40 AM
Seneca, an elven wizard, was my first DDO character made in March of 2006, and started with an Intelligence of 16 -- which is also the maximum Charisma for a warforged sorcerer. I do just fine. It's all about aiming the right spell at the right target. I can still stop a figher rush cold with Mass Hold Person, I still make lots of hobgoblins dance with Otto's Dancing Sphere, I can make hordes of friends fast with Mass Suggestion, and I can take out pesky casters with Finger of Death. Don't let anyone tell you that you'll be gimped if you start with a 16 casting stat. It simply isn't true.

Admittedly, if you plan to only use Finger of Death and Phantasmal Killer, the loss of DC will hurt you more than a caster who also regularly uses other spells. Frankly though, I think that Flesh to Stone is a much better spell than Phantasmal Killer, because with the latter you're almost guaranteed to deal with at least one strong save unless the target is rogue-based. Not only that, but PK is only a 4th level spell, which means that it will be increasingly necessary to Heighten it as content gets tougher, which in turn makes it less and less attractive.

Especially with the new shorter cooldown timers, I (as a wizard) really don't feel the need for additional casting speed -- and I only use Finger of Death by itself, usually. Spamming spells really fast is a great way to run out of SP, in my experience...but to each his own, I guess. I find that I get more mileage with a single casting of Mass Hold Person, Mass Suggestion, or Otto's Dancing Sphere than I do from a single casting of Finger of Death, frankly...but there are many different ways to play an arcane caster and the Finger of Death method is certainly a valid one.

Epsilom
08-16-2007, 01:04 AM
One question though, as I don't personally have a high level sorceror. How many SP does a 14 sorc have,with magi, 34 cha, and mental toughnesses? I was under the impression that it came out to ~1840, or a 500ish difference. Perhaps I am mistaken.

A guildie called Aurorah has just over 2000 SP. He is a Drow Sorc pure.I'm not sure what he has on.

I hope i didn't come across as too argumentative Cindar :) I think you're also right in what you said.

I had to add this... We have a Drow Sorc in our guild named Nartil Dulam. Some of you that are familiar with Drow language may get a laugh off that :)
He is.. how can i say... like death in twighlight leather.
In our guild when a monster is totally obliterated, completely destroyed, -500 HP.. we referr to them as being "Nartilled".

I won't go on about his exploits here, but i will say that I can vouch for the Drow Sorc being a bloody awesome destructive power.

That said.. he does die where he wouldn't as a WF, nonetheless... there're a few scary stories at troll-camp about Nartil!

Epsilom
08-16-2007, 01:35 AM
My fleshie caster has 250+ hp with a +5 con item and before any other buffs or items. Even 250 is a decent amount to outlast the mobs in most fights and then drink a couple gallons of potions afterwards
Ok.. Did you take toughness? is that a +2 con tome? GFL belt? Is he a dorf?
I assume so as dorf are the only other race to get HP enhancements.
Chugging a gallon of potions is way, way expensive to be doing everyday imo even if you're stinking rich.

I get agrro all the time, just like any caster. Managing agro is the key, there are several ways other than blocking in a FW, though i agree sometimes you have to. I prefer to kill mobs outright rather than let them touch me, each to thier own.
A caster who jumps around the back is usually doing that to get away from agro that he has already generated, because he doesn't have the HP or Repairs to heal up.

Reconstruct is super fast to cast, i just hit 9 on hotbar one and it's done, blink of an eye from 1 HP to full. It costs 30 SP to cast... that's hardly wasting SP that the party could use. It's also much more efficient/faster/reliable than stopping still to chug 10 potions to get the same effect of One 30 Point Spell. Especially considering your massive (for a caster) HP.

Deusxmachina
08-16-2007, 04:06 AM
Ok.. Did you take toughness? is that a +2 con tome? GFL belt? Is he a dorf?
I assume so as dorf are the only other race to get HP enhancements.
Chugging a gallon of potions is way, way expensive to be doing everyday imo even if you're stinking rich.

Yes, dwarf and toughness. As I said, a +5 con item and nothing else. No tome, no GFL, no nothing.

Yes, he was nearly broke until 9th or so. Part of that is also from having to buy nearly every item he wanted since they never dropped.

In a game where everyone says money is near-worthless at higher levels, (which I don't fully agree with), I'd say chugging potions is a fairly minor cost of doing business. At least, if the person doesn't want to be a sponge for clerics. I played my cleric a long time. I don't like sponges, and I'd delete this guy if he was one or if I played him like one. Every character that can't self-heal has to buy potions or they suck. That's just how it is.

850gp a pop potions do add up. No question. Gotta pay to play!



I get agrro all the time, just like any caster. Managing agro is the key, there are several ways other than blocking in a FW, though i agree sometimes you have to. I prefer to kill mobs outright rather than let them touch me, each to thier own.

Blocking in a firewall? If someone is standing in a firewall, they should be swinging a very large weapon or throwing fireballs or something. Blocking won't help much if they already have stoneskin on. Makes it worse actually since things aren't dying as fast.

Stoneskin costs money, too, so I can see how some people might want to block instead of casting something that costs money.

I mentioned the standing in the firewall thing to point out that even an aggro machine like mine does fine and that a one-shotter caster who won't have anywhere near the aggro should do much better.



Reconstruct is super fast to cast, i just hit 9 on hotbar one and it's done, blink of an eye from 1 HP to full. It costs 30 SP to cast... that's hardly wasting SP that the party could use. It's also much more efficient/faster/reliable than stopping still to chug 10 potions to get the same effect of One 30 Point Spell. Especially considering your massive (for a caster) HP.

And if my guy could self-heal he wouldn't have his massive hitpoints to need self-healing as much in the first place.

And a WF still has a lower DC than those other one-shot sorcerers. And a caster who stands in the back and one-shots things needs self-healing a lot less than other playstyles no matter how many hitpoints he has. The OP was talking about a one-shot caster, not a fire-spewing, aggro-machine one.

And 30sp PER SHOT. It's not a large amount, but it's not zero, either. If a player isn't using potions due to speed or simply because he's cheap, 30sp per shot can add up in tough quests. Or to save sp he's using scrolls, and those aren't free. And a WF will be doing this more often since, as you said, many clerics have issues with healing warforged.

I already said WF casters can be great and self-healing can be great. But there's no free lunch. There are good and bad points of every choice. I have a WF caster, too, but I rarely play him because I'm just not feeling him.

I'm off to buy potions now.

Harbinder
08-16-2007, 09:58 AM
Just another point against cross-classing for umd...you also lose 1 on your caster level checks.

Gimpster
08-16-2007, 11:52 AM
6. If I were to go wizard, is going one level of rogue at the start a good or bad idea? My goal will not be to do rogue skills, it is for UMD. So given only doing it for UMD, is giving up the extra 70 SPs and the 1 level 6 & 7 spells worth it?
If you decide you want UMD on either a wizard or sorc, a bard level is quite better than a rogue level:
1. Bards get spellpoints, rogues don't. They get more spellpoints with a high charisma, but even without it they still get some to make up for your missing caster level.
2. Bards get +2 reflex +2 will, rogues get only +2 reflex. Better saves as a bard.
3. Rogues get 1d6 sneak attack- but a caster shouldn't care about that.

If you somehow had room to take a second splash level, then rogue could be superior because of evasion. But more than 1 level missing from wizard will remove your highest level of spells.


7. Given question six, is low 20's UMD needed/worth it on a WF wizard?
It's not needed, but it can be fun and helpful. You can operate Raise Dead scrolls on the rest of the party, or simply heal the fleshy wizards with wands to make them feel inadequate. But since you can already wand-heal yourself without UMD, you have less motivation to get UMD than any other wizard.

Gimpster
08-16-2007, 11:59 AM
Blocking in a firewall? If someone is standing in a firewall, they should be swinging a very large weapon or throwing fireballs or something. Blocking won't help much if they already have stoneskin on. Makes it worse actually since things aren't dying as fast.
Quite wrong. Stoneskin is DR 10 and wears down fast. Shield-blocking on top of that is a minimum of DR 19 with a light shield, or up to DR 28 with a tower shield and a Divine Power clicky. Furthermore, the fact that you are blocking at all means that enemy special attacks like Poison, constitution damage, trip, stunning blow, flame, and unholy are cancelled completely.

Swinging a weapon would do trivial extra damage, and although fireballs could add to the damage, they'd also add to the mana expenditure, which conflicts with the reason why you're using a firewall.

The two best choices for when you're inside a firewall with monsters is to either block in place, or jump around. Swinging and casting are overall worse ideas.

MrWizard
08-16-2007, 01:01 PM
I have always played melee toons, and this will be my first caster. Friends I have talked to in game mostly prefer sorcs over wizards for pure killing power.

Drow over other races also seems preferential.

What I am looking to build is a character that is primarily a killing machine, and I think from grouping in the end game with casters that I want my focus to be on PK, FoD, and the fire spells (wall and ray primarily). Flesh to stone also perhaps.
.

Wall and ray do not have a save usually, so your main problem would be enhancements, items, and mana.
PK and FOD are two different magic schools...and if you are a bit gimped with your DC (like a WF) then I would stick with one and add a focus for it.

If you want to get fancy, make a dwarf sorcerer...lol

You are squishy as a wiz or a sorc...not as many hit points.
Race is not really that important.

Wiz can change spells a lot, sorc can cast faster but stuck with spells he has.

If you are going for a specific build and want to just keep certain damage and death spells, there is no reason not to go sorc. And since you also seem to want UMD, I would go Sorc.
If you waste a level on a rogue...then do not go sorc as you cannot get a 7th level spell (FOD)...

FOD and PK are about the same...but many things that can be FoD'd cannot be PK'd....ancient spiders for example....however...these things that cannot be pk'd have a good spell resistance (usually) and since you are not going for spell pen much as in DC or feats, you might want to just focus on illusion and skip fod as a waste for your build...that way you can do the one level of rogue.

Above all, just have fun.

You will be squishy a lot as a caster. If you want to be a death dealer through massive damage or insta kill, remember that while things burn they are gonna hit you a lot.
You will find many nukers usually survive by giving all points to con that they can so they can get an extra 50 0r 60 HP at end game..or evne more if done right.
The reason you need the points is your damage will cause great aggro and you will not concentrate on crowd control..

So, spend some on HP/con, I would not worry about maxxing my int/cha too much as your dc will not matter as much with damage spells, your PK will be gimped a bit though...

Just have fun and find the right build...and kick butt man.

Deusxmachina
08-16-2007, 05:33 PM
Shield-blocking on top of that is a minimum of DR 19 with a light shield, or up to DR 28 with a tower shield and a Divine Power clicky.


I was going off this link: http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Damage_reduction

Base active DR (with shield) = (BAB / 2) + Shield AC bonus + 2

Let's say an average (8 BAB/2) 4 + 9 tower shield + 2 = 15. I was thinking stoneskin didn't stack, which it does, for 25. That's great. I still think it's rather situational if the rest of your party is getting whacked, but this means there's even less of a reason to need self-healing if blocking in your own firewall.

Epsilom
08-17-2007, 01:51 AM
Yes, dwarf and toughness. As I said, a +5 con item and nothing else. No tome, no GFL, no nothing.

Also, no natural passive immunities the WF has. Wf is immune to alot of things, add to that they can just as easily have as many HP as a dwarf.


Blocking in a firewall? If someone is standing in a firewall, they should be swinging a very large weapon or throwing fireballs or something. Blocking won't help much if they already have stoneskin on. Makes it worse actually since things aren't dying as fast.

Um yeah it's actually opposite to what you've said here. Stoneskin and blocking really, really help alot managing the Hits while standing in a FW. I do it all the time. The blocking makes you immune to most special attacks, and factor in the WF immunities (again.. they can't be mentioned enough).
I don't think swinging an Axe with a BaB of 7 in your own agro-drawing FW is going to do you any favors. You're just gonna take more hits, I mean.. sure if you have a 26 str like i do on my Wizard you could cast Tensers after the FW and rip stuff up! Otherwise, my advice would be , just block.


And 30sp PER SHOT. It's not a large amount, but it's not zero, either. If a player isn't using potions due to speed or simply because he's cheap, 30sp per shot can add up in tough quests. Or to save sp he's using scrolls, and those aren't free. And a WF will be doing this more often since, as you said, many clerics have issues with healing warforged.
..
30 SP is insignificant, compared to how much you would spend throwing out 5 Fireballs while standing in your own FW. After which you still need to heal up.

I have a Macro it says " Plz don't heal me unless i'm almost dead or incap" I use it in every team, honestly it's not cleric hate- it's apathy. I heal myself the whole time in teams. I know the game well enough to know when i can splurge SP, and when i have to save it, there is never an issue of me overspending SP on my own heals because Repair Wands are always available, i never use reconstruct scrolls, so that cost does not apply.


I'm off to buy potions now.
how many more times will you have to do that? :p

Deusxmachina
08-17-2007, 05:21 PM
add to that they can just as easily have as many HP as a dwarf.

I'm looking at the warforged enhancement page and don't see where they get the toughness enhancements like dwarves do. Either way, as I said (again), I only mentioned that hitpoint amount as an example of a character on the frontlines that does fine without self-healing compared to what the OP wants of a one-shotter that assumedly stands in the back and will get far less aggro.



30 SP is insignificant, compared to how much you would spend throwing out 5 Fireballs while standing in your own FW. After which you still need to heal up.

Now that I notice stoneskin stacks with blocking, there's even less reason to need self-healing to get through a fight for when standing in a firewall. Since the OP is talking a one-shot character, he probably wouldn't be doing a lot of firewall blocking anyway.

As for throwing five fireballs, that applies to any race. I said that because I have a hard time standing in a firewall doing nothing but blocking while the rest of my party is dying around me. But that's just me.



how many more times will you have to do that? :p

For +50hp, +2 to axes, +4 to balance, +5 to most saves, and most importantly a cool-looking eyepatch, as many times as it takes.

This isn't supposed to be a dwarf vs. warforged thing since with the OP wanting an instant-kill character neither dwarf nor warforged would be my first choice.

Epsilom
08-17-2007, 11:38 PM
..and most importantly a cool-looking eyepatch..
ok... you got me on the eye-patch... :D

Your right it's not about which race is better, and yeah for one shotting, most would probably pick drow/human for the DC.
Your dwarf works well for you though, as does my WF.. i guess it's all up to personal style at the end :)

JosephKell
08-21-2007, 12:06 PM
I recommend starting a Wizard first. Get it to maybe level 4 or 5 then decide to keep going with it or making a Sorcerer. Those levels will help you learn the spells so you know which ones to take on the Sorcerer.

The other day I played with a Sorcerer that didn't know the class and he swapped out Web for Command Undead (we mentioned that Web works on Undead well before he made the swap, he ignored us, and became dead weight for Delara's).

Also, having potions is a good thing. Even if you just carry lots of stacks of Light potions (CLW or RLD) (moderate potions cost like 6 times as much for a little more than twice the effect).

I recommend a few Serious, a few more Moderate, and a ton of Light. Light for between combat (or when you only have a little damage) and the heaviers for in combat. It may take a long time to heal that way, but it is cheaper for low levels. I do it on my WF Fighter who has like 3-5 times the hp of similarly leveled squishy mages, so you should definitely be able to do it too.

Strakeln
08-21-2007, 12:43 PM
1. Does a WF's 4 fewer Cha than a Drow make it not viable as a PK/FoD user in elite end game quests? Does the 4 cha make a big difference?
Yes, it makes a difference, and it is noticeable, but it is not enough to completely gimp you.

2. The biggest issue I see with going wiz over sorc is the cool down. How long is the cool down on PK, Sorching Ray, and FoD for wizards? And what is it for Sorcs?
I don't know exact times, but with alternating between the two spells you should be fine with either (sorc will be faster, but usually one or two rounds of PK/FoD clears things up enough).

3. Given the cooldown, do you level 14 wizards find you can kill fast enough using PK and FoD alternately in quests in Giant Hold for instance?
In a party, yes. Solo, you may need to retreat/kite a bit.

4. Can a PK/FoD focused wiz out kill a sorc with the same focus?
It all depends on the player behind the characters. If it were the same player on two different characters, the answer is no.

5. In your opinion, does the self healing aspect of a warforged outwiegh the extra cha of a Drow?
Possibly my most important response here: for wizards, yes... for sorcs, NO.

6. If I were to go wizard, is going one level of rogue at the start a good or bad idea? My goal will not be to do rogue skills, it is for UMD. So given only doing it for UMD, is giving up the extra 70 SPs and the 1 level 6 & 7 spells worth it?
If you want UMD, go straight sorc... being charisma based, you'll get a higher end-game UMD than with a wizard, despite UMD being cross-class. Lots of people have done the wiz13/rog1 build, it is PAINFUL at levels 1 and 2 (only one attack!). I would say that going 1 level of rogue for UMD only would be a waste. Going for traps and locks might not be a bad idea, but understand that you will have to give up other things as a tradeoff (like concentration, jump, hide, move silent).

7. Given question six, is low 20's UMD needed/worth it on a WF wizard?
Nope. You can already heal yourself. What ya gonna use that UMD for... to heal some foolish fleshies? Sure, there's the equipment thing, but I find with my casters I don't need to worry about UMD-ing gear... they aren't as gear-dependent as the melee types.

8. Lastly, for those that have played both a wizard and a sorc to 14, especially WF and/or Drow, what did you prefer in the end and why?
I have not played both to the end, but I do have a 14th level drow sorc. What do I love? Everything. I can blow up anything that moves, I can hold/stone/dance anything that I don't want to kill too quickly, I have TONS of mana and rarely run out (which allows for perma-haste), I can buff so freakin fast that people often ask me for buffs I already gave them. On top of all that, I can whip cure serious wands and scrolls without fail, I can raise dead (scrolls) with very little failure, I can use scrolls not really intended for me.

Responses in red

Elleron
08-21-2007, 05:12 PM
If I was rolling my first mage I would roll a wizard, because you get every spell that mages can get. So you can see what works and what doesn't.

Since sorcerer's you have to pick your spells at leveling you need to know what spells you are going to take.

1. Self-healing take the sorc with umd
2. Crowd control - take the wizard, since you can go get the spell if you need it
3. Freakin death and destruction mage take the sorcerer.

Make sure with either one you find a potency/or fire/acid/cold, or whatever spells you are using item and a lore item, fire lore, ect. Also get plenty of robes to change out to, and most of all have fun.

geoffhanna
08-21-2007, 05:23 PM
1. Does a WF's 4 fewer Cha than a Drow make it not viable as a PK/FoD user in elite end game quests? Does the 4 cha make a big difference?

No. Yes. You will still be viable but it matters.


2. The biggest issue I see with going wiz over sorc is the cool down. How long is the cool down on PK, Sorching Ray, and FoD for wizards? And what is it for Sorcs?

I'm sorry I only know anectodal answers here


3. Given the cooldown, do you level 14 wizards find you can kill fast enough using PK and FoD alternately in quests in Giant Hold for instance?

I need a third spell to cast while waiting for the PK and FoD cooldowns to cycle. Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate, or Banish usually depending on the quest.


4. Can a PK/FoD focused wiz out kill a sorc with the same focus?

That has so much to do with the player that I would answer "N/A"


5. In your opinion, does the self healing aspect of a warforged outwiegh the extra cha of a Drow?

If you solo, yes. Otherwise the answer is not clear.


6. If I were to go wizard, is going one level of rogue at the start a good or bad idea? My goal will not be to do rogue skills, it is for UMD. So given only doing it for UMD, is giving up the extra 70 SPs and the 1 level 6 & 7 spells worth it?

Another question that cannot be answered definitively. My sorc has one level rogue for haggle and UMD. My wiz does not.


7. Given question six, is low 20's UMD needed/worth it on a WF wizard?

Will be hard to achieve. Yet, without the ability to use res scrolls, why bother? But this is opinion.


8. Lastly, for those that have played both a wizard and a sorc to 14, especially WF and/or Drow, what did you prefer in the end and why?

I will let you know when my sorc makes it to 14. Incomplete answer so far is that I like them both. One is a better killer. One is a better party member.