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Missing_Minds
08-09-2007, 09:42 AM
NEW - Monsters that are hiding or invisible can no longer be tab (or `) selected unless a player can detect the monster using their Spot or Listen skills.


While I do not have any problem with this per say (there is logical reasoning for it), what are you going to give us back in turn?


ANY mob that can sneak has the ability of "hide in plain sight" Which is flat out wrong. For those of you who do not know what this is, it means they can go into sneak mode right in front of you and not be seen. None of the mobs we have in the game should have this ability, yet obviously they do.

ANY PC with a decent charisma score is going to be seen/have agro way before any one else. Case in point 1) My fighter in full plate, no ranks in move silently, using a shield, and a Cha of 10 (he's a drow) can run up to a troll, oger, etc. trip them, stun them, and take down half their hit points before the NPC even realizes they are there, yet my bard or sorc can't get within 50 feet even sneaking when they are some how spotted.
Case in point 2) In undead quests, archers will target those with the highest charisma first and constantly go back to shooting them. REGARDLESS if they are in the room or not. In rooms where the floor falls out and you have to go down to take out a few archers and arcanes, my sorc did NOT hop the 40 odd feet down to join the rest of the party, yet it was the target of EVERYTHING down there. I'm not even standing on the edge to jump and I'm being targeted.

ANY NPC with a trip attack has NO timer for it. They can trip attempt each attack. Canines are KNOWN for this lame donkey trick.

Once seen by any mob you can NOT hide from them again. Yeah, I've run around the room and out of it via haste, went behind the stairwell and hid even before the npc made it out of the room. They STILL make a direct beeline for me with no regards to the fact that they can't see me. I had a friend keep watch to verify that I was under the staircase before they made it out of the room.


So, game design management... You are going to nerf us, how about you get the devs to fix the AI also.

(as I don't play Risa and turbine won't bother put any of my characters on there to test things out, if those who do play Risa can report that they did fix things, I'd love to hear back from you in this thread. Thanks.)

Ziggy
08-09-2007, 09:45 AM
it has nothing to do with charisma. its the fact that your an arcane caster.

For some reason the mobs like to go after casters first.

wait thats exactly what we do.

They just forget to fight the things that are hitting them and keep attacking whether or not youve attacked them first.

I noticed a good example last night while running deleras.

The ghostly skeletons kept running to the cleric(only caster in the group) and left us alone even though we were smacking em around.

Wulf_Ratbane
08-09-2007, 09:50 AM
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

How friggin easy do you need this game to be?

For god's sakes, man up, Nancy.

negative
08-09-2007, 09:53 AM
Ziggy's right, it because the mobs target casters. Trust me, wizards have the same issue.

That said, most mob's shouldn't be able to Hide in Plain Sight unless they have the feat or some other special ability (like the Hobgob rogues). On the other hand, we should never have been able to tab hidden mobs, so, I'm not sure there needs to be some sorta "trade-off" made.

Riddikulus
08-09-2007, 09:57 AM
I like the change. I always thought it was cheesy that we could tab target an invisible enemy and shoot at it.

I hope though that the change applies equally to the mobs as well as the players.

And the real test will be to take a high stealth rogue into the PvP pit.

JD2134
08-09-2007, 09:58 AM
You bring up some good points, and here a few more
1 Mobs dissapearing in gillterdust while the spell is meant to show hidden mobs

2 Mobs disapearing while head and stun

3 Mobs that can heal themself while tripped

4 Mobs that can be interuppted or always get their last spell off ( the must have quicken,empowered,max turn on all the time

5 Give mobs a Mana power, cause till then i believe like everyone else that they have unlimited mana. (case in point had a party member get stuck in a wall in wiz king while trying to fix it a arcane caster on the other side of the wall keep casting chain lighting every 8 seconds or so for close to ten minutes so the 10 min * 60 sec = 600 sec / 8 = 75 spells at 35 sp = 2625 spell points.

That all i can add on to what mobs can do compare to us

Remember PC rule book has over a 1000 rules
Mobs rule book has one rule. Kill all PC

Cinwulf
08-09-2007, 10:01 AM
I do think mobs are broken in the fact that once they agro you they always know where you are. You should be able to come out of hiding, attack a mob abd then break los then go into hiding again to loose their agro.

blakbyrd
08-09-2007, 10:03 AM
it has nothing to do with charisma. its the fact that your an arcane caster.

For some reason the mobs like to go after casters first.

wait thats exactly what we do.

They just forget to fight the things that are hitting them and keep attacking whether or not youve attacked them first.

I noticed a good example last night while running deleras.

The ghostly skeletons kept running to the cleric(only caster in the group) and left us alone even though we were smacking em around.


Well, in fairness, isnt that largely how many players also act? When an Arcane skellie pops up, players ignore all the other mobs attacking them until they take out the arcane. Similar with Hob Clerics.

TO me this sounds fine, although it is annoying. Especially when we are playing a game largely based on the fact that we strategize encounters because we know how each mobs acts, and because of AI, that rarely changes. Still, I do not mind it so much, but what screws up the whole thing to me is that the mobs (as mentioned) are working off different rules.

Archers are exceptionally annoying. Not only do they have unlimited range, they can keep someone target at unlimited range as well. To top it off they have an entirely different ranged mechanic. Mob Archers get to lob their shots, which means they can shot over things to hit you that you cannot. IE, if they are slightly down a hill they lob their shots to hit you, but you cannot shoot them because your arrows go in a straight line and hit the ground first. Why do mob archers use an entirely different ranged mechanic?

Back on point, the AI has changed. Mobs do now go after the casters. As I have seen in WoW as well, the cleric can be way behind the group even a room away, while the rest of the group stands at a door they are about to open. They open the door and if the space is there the mob will ignore everyone, run right past them and head to the next room with the cleric which the mob could not have even seen to start with. From my experience it isnt CHA based, it is caster based (arcane or divine), but regardless the effect is basically the same. Mobs will ignore those beating them up to get to the caster, but again this is fairly similar to how the players act as well, which should be a fair assumption and mechanic if the mobs didnt work off completely different rules on how they can fight, but that is a mute point anymore.

Although the addition of Subtle Spellcasting enhancement is a neat idea, the new change to AI makes this pretty much a useless enhancement to take, since casters dont even have to do anything to automatically gain aggro now, what benefit is there to lessening aggro chance on an attack, when you get aggro anyways. Similar is also the change with some CC Spells. Web for instance, now instantly gains aggro to the caster by any mob that gets caught or safely walks through a web, making it a rather dangerous spell to use anymore (but I guess in some ways maybe it makes sense, but not when they break free and have already lost half their HP to a fighter beating them up).

No matter what AI is the most complex and difficult thing for any MMO. It is something they are always working on. No matter how complex it gets it will still seem stupid or silly. No MMO has the processing power necessary to make it truely a dynamic "almost thinking" AI, so it will always be simplistic and expected in its actions. The only real way to offer any sense of occasional dynamic AI is for them to keep tweaking and changing it from time to time, which in most cases I think is good to keep things a little less static.

Riddikulus
08-09-2007, 10:08 AM
5 Give mobs a Mana power, cause till then i believe like everyone else that they have unlimited mana.
The devs have already confirmed that all casting mobs have unlimited mana. The explaination was that mob average combat lifespan was so short that counting mana would be a waste of CPU time.

Mobs supposedly do follow casting time and cooldown rules, but I question that sometimes as well.

Ziggy
08-09-2007, 10:10 AM
Well, in fairness, isnt that largely how many players also act? When an Arcane skellie pops up, players ignore all the other mobs attacking them until they take out the arcane. Similar with Hob Clerics.

yeah thats exactly what my third line says:D

Tanka
08-09-2007, 10:12 AM
2 Mobs disapearing while head and stun
In the case of Ogre Magi, they have a special spell ability that fires off when their health drops too low. Forgive me for the fact that I can't recall what it's called, but it is a Feat in PnP that a caster can take.

(I'm sure MT or Gimpster will come in and name it.)

Ziggy
08-09-2007, 10:13 AM
In the case of Ogre Magi, they have a special spell ability that fires off when their health drops too low. Forgive me for the fact that I can't recall what it's called, but it is a Feat in PnP that a caster can take.

(I'm sure MT or Gimpster will come in and name it.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm

they have the spell like ability to become invisible.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities

The user activates it mentally.

so even when they are paralyzed, they can still exert their mental abilities to become invisible.

Mind you we should be able to hit them.

blakbyrd
08-09-2007, 10:17 AM
You bring up some good points, and here a few more
1 Mobs dissapearing in gillterdust while the spell is meant to show hidden mobs

2 Mobs disapearing while head and stun

3 Mobs that can heal themself while tripped

4 Mobs that can be interuppted or always get their last spell off ( the must have quicken,empowered,max turn on all the time

5 Give mobs a Mana power, cause till then i believe like everyone else that they have unlimited mana. (case in point had a party member get stuck in a wall in wiz king while trying to fix it a arcane caster on the other side of the wall keep casting chain lighting every 8 seconds or so for close to ten minutes so the 10 min * 60 sec = 600 sec / 8 = 75 spells at 35 sp = 2625 spell points.

That all i can add on to what mobs can do compare to us

Remember PC rule book has over a 1000 rules
Mobs rule book has one rule. Kill all PC

1. Very annoying
2. Very annoying as well (Correction to above quote: Held and Stunned...had me confused for a sec...haha). Scorpions are famous for it, as are the Ogre Magi and elementals to an extent.
3. I do not see this much anymore or just havent paid attention, it was a real problem awhile back though. In some quests I have watched held or paralyzed divine mobs spam cast heals on dogs, which is real annoying, or the dogs are healing themselves, but I dont think we have any divine dogs in the game do we? haha.
4. I am assuming this to mean mobs that apparently cannot be interrupted, casting or melee special moves. This is very annoying. We can be interrupted at any point in an action, but all mobs seem to be immune to any form of interruption until their action finishes. IE, Trolls triple rage strike; my paralyze or hold person wont take effect until the strike is finished. Kobold shamans seem to have a concentration of triple digits...haha.
5. Mobs do have unlimited mana. Turbine has acknowledged this. From what I recall they also said they would not be giving them limited mana. Mobs are designed to die and usually die quickly, so it usually doesnt matter, however they do get to seemingly ignore casting timers, spell levels and such.

One thing I will also add this is exceptionally annoying to me is melee mobs special attacks. For example the trolls triple rage strike, the polearm hobs that trip, etc. If you are in range when the animation starts for their actions, they can hit you no matter how far away you are when they actually do the strike. My caster has died countless times because I saw a troll begin to rage, and by the time he begins swinging I have run away probably 40 feet, but amazingly he still pounds me 3 times in a row and kills me. Same with tripping hobs and dogs, a giants stomp, an elementals grab, etc. Apparently only one check is made at the actions beginning "is NPC in range", it apparently never checks again when the attack actually happens, although the game knows you are a long ways off as the mob is chasing you while doing its actions, yet still way out of range. A second check needs to be made. We as players do not get this advantage...if a mob moves out of range when the attack then happens, we miss, no roll, no nothing, just a miss and we must wait for the timer to go away to try again.

Wulf_Ratbane
08-09-2007, 10:18 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm

they have the spell like ability to become invisible.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities

I always assumed that effect was meant to mimic gaseous form.

blakbyrd
08-09-2007, 10:19 AM
In the case of Ogre Magi, they have a special spell ability that fires off when their health drops too low. Forgive me for the fact that I can't recall what it's called, but it is a Feat in PnP that a caster can take.

(I'm sure MT or Gimpster will come in and name it.)

Ahh, well in that case maybe it is correct then. I was unaware of that ability. I still think it is a bug in general though as too many mobs experience this that would not have that ability, however, that might exclude the ogre magi.

Tanka
08-09-2007, 10:20 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm

they have the spell like ability to become invisible.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities


so even when they are paralyzed, they can still exert their mental abilities to become invisible.

Mind you we should be able to hit them.
Ah, well, beyond that, there is a Feat that allows you to cast a spell at a certain time based on certain conditions, usually Teleport or something else life-saving.

My brain keeps wanting to say Persistant, but that's completely and utterly incorrect.

Ziggy
08-09-2007, 10:22 AM
Ah, well, beyond that, there is a Feat that allows you to cast a spell at a certain time based on certain conditions, usually Teleport or something else life-saving.

My brain keeps wanting to say Persistant, but that's completely and utterly incorrect.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm

Tanka
08-09-2007, 10:23 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm
That's the one.

Thanks.

oronisi
08-09-2007, 10:24 AM
I'm more ****ed about the double standard. Have you ever taken a rogue into a dungeon, gotten aggro, ran away and stealthed?? They follow you regardless. They may not hone in on you 100%, but they always know your location within a 30 degree arc of where you are.

You want mobs to be able to stealth properly? Cool. Now let PCs do the same...in quests and PvP. This isn't just a rogue ability, rangers and bards can easily access stealth, as can mages with spells.

Do a system that works within the game universe, don't isolate npcs and pcs, and pve and pvp.

Cinwulf
08-09-2007, 10:24 AM
I always assumed that effect was meant to mimic gaseous form.


Which still should'nt stop them from taking any damage or a chance at being hit.


The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.) The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

Laith
08-09-2007, 10:25 AM
Mind you we should be able to hit them.

Which still should'nt stop them from taking any damage or a chance at being hitkinda like incoporeals going into the floor/walls, gaseous form allows you to fly and go thru small holes including (presumably) small holes in the ground or going 10ft into the air to be unreachable.

Riddikulus
08-09-2007, 10:27 AM
I'm more ****ed about the double standard. Have you ever taken a rogue into a dungeon, gotten aggro, ran away and stealthed?? They follow you regardless. They may not hone in on you 100%, but they always know your location within a 30 degree arc of where you are.

You want mobs to be able to stealth properly? Cool. Now let PCs do the same...in quests and PvP. This isn't just a rogue ability, rangers and bards can easily access stealth, as can mages with spells.

Do a system that works within the game universe, don't isolate npcs and pcs, and pve and pvp.
I found with my rogue that if I have aggro, if I cast invisibility then go into sneak, it will cause the mobs to lose me at the point at which I casted invisibility.

I used that to good effect in BTG. Sneak up to 1st pyre, light it triggering a couple skellys, run to the corner of the map, cast invis, go into sneak, sneak toward second pyre. Watch the skellys from the first pyre go to exactly where I cast invis and hunt around.

Missing_Minds
08-09-2007, 10:28 AM
I do not have any issues with casters being the first one targeted.

What I have the issue with is the freaking DETECTION.

Consider a solo fighter and a solo caster (bard or sorc, disclaimer below)

A fighter in full plate, with shield, with weapon, RUNNING should be making a ton more noise than a naked caster. Yet mobs will not notice the fighter until they are being beat down on.

A caster naked and sneaking (yeah, no sneak skill keep in mind) can't get with in 50 feet of them without being noticed.

Caster being bard or sorc in these instances. I've not tried this with a cleric (don't have one) or my wizard. This could be an issue of charisma which is wrong. It should be based off of spot, listen, and equipment identification checks.


*hands the crying Wulf a tissue for his tears*

Wulf_Ratbane
08-09-2007, 10:30 AM
I'm more ****ed about the double standard.

Hmm, yeah... I pretty much got over that within 10 minutes of playing the game, a year and a half ago.

Mobs aren't PCs.

If you want the game to be a challenge (which, currently, it is NOT, not even on elite) then you have to accept that the Mobs are going to have some advantages over their human opponents.

One rules system simply CAN'T work until the AI is capable of everything that a human opponent is capable of.

I for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

Did I say overlords?

I meant protectors.

oronisi
08-09-2007, 10:40 AM
Hmm, yeah... I pretty much got over that within 10 minutes of playing the game, a year and a half ago.

Mobs aren't PCs.

If you want the game to be a challenge (which, currently, it is NOT, not even on elite) then you have to accept that the Mobs are going to have some advantages over their human opponents.

One rules system simply CAN'T work until the AI is capable of everything that a human opponent is capable of.

I for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

Did I say overlords?

I meant protectors.

Spending time maintaining a double standard could be time spent improving AI. The double standard exists because other code doesn't work right. It's a work-around. Work-arounds in code are ****. They are a result of deficient code. Solve the problem, don't introduce new ones.

I'm still glad they are putting this fix in, don't get me wrong. It makes spot and listen more valuable, and introduces at least a little element of surprise in a game where we all have the quests memorized. But again, this is just a tiny piece of the whole stealth-detection system, which has been broken since launch.

Conejo
08-09-2007, 10:44 AM
from my experience caster targeting works in this manner:

1) bards
2) sorcerers
3) wizards
4) clerics

PurdueDave
08-09-2007, 10:52 AM
from my experience caster targeting works in this manner:

1) bards
2) sorcerers
3) wizards
4) clerics

In my experience it's more like...

1) me
2) not me

:D

OP...This will be kind of annoying.

For players it would be nice if you had the option of taking a big sneak penalty to sneak as fast as you normally move.

Raithe
08-09-2007, 11:48 AM
I don't think the detection bugs (errr... programming) takes charisma or class into account, at all. What I have noticed is that backing away from a mob (something a caster is more likely to do) usually triggers detection, even before swinging at the monster does. I made note of this behavior when I experienced it for the first time previewing Mod 4 on Risia. My advice would be to stop backing away when you notice you are amidst mobs. Immediately lay down some crowd control (something quick like web or hypnotism/hypnotic pattern) and then backpedal.


One rules system simply CAN'T work until the AI is capable of everything that a human opponent is capable of.


This is game programming at it's very worst. The single, fundamental rule that any games programmer should follow is creating models that run under the same rules as the players. It's really easy to tell when a sloppy programmer has used a shortcut to seemingly make his artificial intelligence more difficult, and it doesn't really add to the difficulty, as the sloppy shortcut is even more predictable than a decently thought out, complex methodology.

If you are having problems creating AI to meet the situation, you simply limit the situation... you don't let the AI cheat.

Missing_Minds
08-09-2007, 12:07 PM
I don't think the detection bugs (errr... programming) takes charisma or class into account, at all. What I have noticed is that backing away from a mob (something a caster is more likely to do) usually triggers detection, even before swinging at the monster does. I made note of this behavior when I experienced it for the first time previewing Mod 4 on Risia. My advice would be to stop backing away when you notice you are amidst mobs. Immediately lay down some crowd control (something quick like web or hypnotism/hypnotic pattern) and then backpedal.


Who says anything about backpeddling? I'm moving forward having this detection happen.

Granted that makes me wonder. I'll need to get a friend to help me check, but what happens if you have a melee run up to the mobs, backwards? Will they get the agro a bit faster then?

Sue_Dark
08-09-2007, 12:20 PM
I'm more ****ed about the double standard. Have you ever taken a rogue into a dungeon, gotten aggro, ran away and stealthed?? They follow you regardless. They may not hone in on you 100%, but they always know your location within a 30 degree arc of where you are.

You want mobs to be able to stealth properly? Cool. Now let PCs do the same...in quests and PvP. This isn't just a rogue ability, rangers and bards can easily access stealth, as can mages with spells.

Do a system that works within the game universe, don't isolate npcs and pcs, and pve and pvp.

While youre at it... I want my stealth tumble back. Why the heck should my rogue or ranger, both in light or no armor (high dex builds), both with huge tumble, hide and MS skills, be unable to do a simple tumble while crouched and sneaking? Make it a skill check if you want to give it some challenge, but whatever you do.... GIVE IT BACK.

Raithe
08-09-2007, 12:20 PM
...what happens if you have a melee run up to the mobs, backwards? Will they get the agro a bit faster then?

I doubt it has anything to do with facing on the player character. I suspect it is solely based on the distance between the PC and the mob increasing. I have no clue why mobs don't seem to get triggered the same way when that distance is decreasing.

I would add that it seems to be a bug with listen checks, not spot. If the mob is facing the right way and the PC is visible (via spot checks), this bug does not seem to occur.

Vyctor
08-09-2007, 12:24 PM
it has nothing to do with charisma. its the fact that your an arcane caster.

Actually I was told by an in game GM, that the game is being programmed so that the characters with higher charisma scores will draw initial aggro. When I asked about any logic behind it the response I got was "sorry that is the way it is being programmed."

Vyctor
08-09-2007, 12:26 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm

they have the spell like ability to become invisible.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities


so even when they are paralyzed, they can still exert their mental abilities to become invisible.

Mind you we should be able to hit them.

That and we should still be able to see them with True Seeing active......

Ziggy
08-09-2007, 12:27 PM
Actually I was told by an in game GM, that the game is being programmed so that the characters with higher charisma scores will draw initial aggro. When I asked about any logic behind it the response I got was "sorry that is the way it is being programmed."
yeah and diplomacy works on chests.

there is a modifier called command. which increases your charisma skills by 2 but also makes you easier to see, and mobs will attack you more.

But i think the GM was confusing the 2.

GM info and what is true, sometimes are not the same.:D

Vyctor
08-09-2007, 12:28 PM
Ah, well, beyond that, there is a Feat that allows you to cast a spell at a certain time based on certain conditions, usually Teleport or something else life-saving.

My brain keeps wanting to say Persistant, but that's completely and utterly incorrect.

That spell is Contingency...

Eladrin
08-09-2007, 12:28 PM
Actually I was told by an in game GM, that the game is being programmed so that the characters with higher charisma scores will draw initial aggro. When I asked about any logic behind it the response I got was "sorry that is the way it is being programmed."
The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

Laith
08-09-2007, 12:30 PM
In-game GMs are not developers. I'd venture to say that fairly often players understand the game better than GMs do.

Vyctor
08-09-2007, 12:31 PM
The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

That's good to hear, I was just passing along information that was passed along to me :) Thank you for the correction.

PurdueDave
08-09-2007, 12:40 PM
The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

Good point. I'd forgotten about the "back target" bug.

GoldyGopher
08-09-2007, 12:42 PM
The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)


I searched the past posts but couldn't find the exact posting I was looking for.

It has been explained to us in the past that the Artificial Intelligence used in controlling mobs is similar to the process that many parties go through when entering an engagement. The AI determines a threat factor for each member of the party and their relative location to the encounter. Characters are than engaged in the order from the highest to the lowest threat. The result is generally Arcane Spell Casters will receive the highest threat modifier as they have the ability to do the most DPS, followed by Tanks, secondary fighters (including exposed rogues), and lastly divine clerics. After the encounter starts the threat factor for each of these characters is reassessed almost on a second by second basis.
I have seen this to be true almost 100% of the time. My clerics never get any agro even when they lead the charge into the encounter. My arcanes almost always get target immediately even when they are out of Spell Points.

Jeff

Ziggy
08-09-2007, 12:49 PM
The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

Thanks:D

Missing_Minds
08-09-2007, 12:51 PM
There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

Thanks for posting fact about cha, Eladrin. It is appreciated. The situation remains about detection when soloing. (so I assume as well when grouped as why would there be two different systems)

The exact setup that I can pull it off consistently 10/10 times is in Sorrowdusk. Head for the hell hounds, (kill them off so they don't nip at your heals), and head up the hill towards the oger and troll.

Every time, even if the npcs ARE looking in the direction of my solo fighter, they won't bother to agro until I'm face to face with them for the most part. I could run by them without getting hit every time if I wanted.

If I take in my sorc or my bard (solo again) I'll get about 40 feet from them and I'll already have agro.

Add in the fact that with my fighter, the oger that is a bit higher up on the hill and to the left of the archway you walk through never agros on my fighter until after I start running up the rocks towards him. Yet if I have my bard or sorc there, that oger will already be making his way down to bust my chops.

I can repeat this every single time.

The agro system, solo, should be the same for any character yet this is proving it is not. And no, I don't wear command armor on any of my characters.

My fighter (25% striding) and sorc (10% striding) are drow, my bard is a halfling (30% striding).

Jolani
08-09-2007, 12:54 PM
The problem with casters being targeted first, is that all monsters do it, even mindless undead and vermin. Zombies, scorpions, and the like should not be able to decide what to attack. Players are intelligent, a simple spider is not.

Roguewiz
08-09-2007, 12:56 PM
Mob aggro in this game is screwey. I've watched a mob, that was engaged with another PC, break combat and charge me for no reason, take a swing...crit, and run back to the tank. Then I get berated for pulling aggro. I always laugh at the morons that say "Well you shouldn't be getting aggro."

(Granted, I have a big "shoot me, I'm a squishy" sign painted on my butt. I'm a firm believer that all Archers in this game come equiped with "Arrows of Raquelis Seeking")

Smart AI is fine, however, the smarter the AI, the less fun the players will have. If you have mobs performing the same things that players can do, we wil eventually lose interest.

MathGeek
08-09-2007, 01:25 PM
When we fight the monsters, it isn't uncommon for our fighters to jump over their fighters to get to their casters. I makes sense to me that the monsters would also employ this logic (well, at least the intelligent ones.)

Then again, if they were like us, their casters would keep casting Finger of Death on our casters. I don't think that would be much fun for us (although it would make Deathward even more popular.)

Tavok
08-09-2007, 01:26 PM
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

How friggin easy do you need this game to be?

For god's sakes, man up, Nancy.

I think shes arguing the point that this is a big nerf to us, not to the mobs. The fact that our sneak does very little but they can go invisible right in front of us is kinda BS.

I think that they should introduce a skill respec with this mod also, since this would be screwing over a lot of people who didn't originally take spot or listen.

Zyklon
08-09-2007, 02:05 PM
I like the change. I always thought it was cheesy that we could tab target an invisible enemy and shoot at it.

They need to fix See Invisible then (which is suppose to show hidden creatures), because when I first got an item clickie I though cool, I can see all the hobgoblins, etc... It never worked. Thought it would show the outline like a high Spot/Listen.


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SneakThief
08-09-2007, 02:37 PM
They need to fix See Invisible then (which is suppose to show hidden creatures), because when I first got an item clickie I though cool, I can see all the hobgoblins, etc... It never worked. Thought it would show the outline like a high Spot/Listen.


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See Invisibility is only 'supposed' to let you see creatures that are magically invisible, not sneaking.
It's supposed to work the same way for the mobs, though for them See Invisible means even a 40+ hide/ms cant get by them, soo.



See Invisibility
Divination
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible. Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures.
The spell does not reveal the method used to obtain invisibility. It does not reveal illusions or enable you to see through opaque objects. It does not reveal creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see.

DrAwkward
08-09-2007, 02:45 PM
In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.)

Do you also have it in the code that all other "alignment = neutral hungry" monsters go after things made of meat?

I suppose oozes can have a sweet ...tooth? for the woody bits, but I can't picture a great big spider being inclined to take a second bite out of a warforged "just for the taste of it".

I know 'forged already have a lot going for them with all the recent changes, but I think "tastes like furniture" is a reasonable special quality.

Braddock_Tharmwell
08-09-2007, 02:47 PM
Don't tell the Dev but some folks have been sorta been abusing the whole Aggro on the Caster mechanic lately. (shhhh)

Group up, send the Caster to go gather up some mobs, and run back and get behind or into the middle of the sheild blocking semi-circle or circle of Sheild holders and start nuking baddies. A tight formation is a safe place for the Caster and they will keep Aggro until everything is near dead or just in mop-up phase.

Think of the movie "The 300" for sheild formation styles. LOL

Just use what you perceive as a benefit for them, against them. It is lots of FUN! :D

Gimpster
08-09-2007, 02:47 PM
I suppose oozes can have a sweet ...tooth? for the woody bits, but I can't picture a great big spider being inclined to take a second bite out of a warforged "just for the taste of it".
Real spiders base their attack priorities on the movement of the victim. DDO's spiders have "tremorsense" for this. If it moves like their food, it is their food.

Arnya
08-09-2007, 03:14 PM
Then again, if they were like us, their casters would keep casting Finger of Death on our casters. I don't think that would be much fun for us (although it would make Deathward even more popular.)

Actually, thics kind of happens now. Add caster beeline to slay living and yeah, not too much fun in some quests for casters... why I keep running TR for as many death ward clickies as I can get

Dragonhyde
08-09-2007, 03:15 PM
It has become a long standing joke among my guild and friends that my main bard is used as a decoy for undead especially mummies. For some reason mummies will go through firewalls and 3 or 4 high dps tanks just to cast and take a swipe at her. It will be interesting to see if the next mod has the same aggro mechanic for undead. I have only seen this behavior with undead. I have had wraiths and the like make a beeline for me even after being hit by someone but I have never had a giant or orc do that unless I had cast something on them like a dance sphere.

DrAwkward
08-09-2007, 03:24 PM
Real spiders base their attack priorities on the movement of the victim. DDO's spiders have "tremorsense" for this. If it moves like their food, it is their food.

Thats why I said second bite.:cool:

POUNCE! Chomp....ptooey, bleh. So sorry, carry on.

Missing_Minds
08-10-2007, 09:03 AM
Thats why I said second bite.:cool:

POUNCE! Chomp....ptooey, bleh. So sorry, carry on.

But what if you had special seasoning covering you? Like that halfling that tried to step on your foot?