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View Full Version : Some insight - Drow, 32 point characters, and newbies



rikori2
08-09-2007, 01:02 AM
To begin, I just want to describe my experiences with DDO. I initially saw it from a friend in the dorms who was playing the beta. He said it was ok, but was more focused on adventuring and dungeon crawling than WoW. His words, not mine.
Later, during a fit of boredom during summer of '06, some friends (2 others), myself, and my sister (17 at the time) decided to all try it out. We ended up leveling up two sets of characters to level 3. However, we never got past that point, because of the perceived "grind" we all felt, after all, we weren't getting more XP, but the amount required to level was almost double. We also felt it lacked crucial MMO elements. Particularly my sister, who had never played D&D, was frustrated with the game and choosing feats and such. **I personally love this aspect of the game - but some "rigid leveling" options would probably be good for those who don't. ** We decided we were going to buy the game, after all, I was excited about making a Drow caster, the extra SP would be worth making a caster, who at the time, I didn't enjoy. However, Drow required 400 faction to unlock. **None of us ended up buying the game.**

A year later, during a similar fit of boredom, three of us (my sister declined to participate this time around) picked up DDO again. This time, being much more savvy, we leveled our characters to 6, and unlocked Drow during our free trial. I was also under the impression the level cap had been raised to 20. We all liked the AH. One of my friends decided not to buy, he's very much into solo-ing and just killing monsters in a camp, he's back with WoW. The other two of us bought. I am now playing my Drow and would like to roll a couple other characters. However, the 32 points characters are just too tempting, I haven't been able to bring myself to make a "gimped" character. (Argue all you want, I've played too much D&D to get over it.)

This next part is merely opinion...
I'd say that DDO definately lacks a good newbie experience. As soon as a character leaves the wayward lobster, they immediately are confronted with insufficient help. If Turbine wants DDO to attract more people, they need to stream line the first 5 levels, and make "auto choice" leveling options.

Next, I think the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players. If it was somehow retroactive (for Drow, maybe you could play an Elf, and once Drow were unlocked, you could find out your "true heritage" and for 32 point characters, they could easily call up your original stats and allow you to distribute 4 more points under the same guidelines.) Finally, the "unlockables" need to work across all servers. However, a better option would be **get rid of the unlockables entirely** Give some other reward for high factions that are character specific. Here's a good example (200 faction, 1 free feat respec, 500 faction +2 free skill points, 1000 faction +1 stat point, 1500 faction +1 Action Point, 2000 faction 1 free feat, 2500 faction +10 hp, 3000 faction +10 faction, etc. etc.) See how easy it was for me to come up with a much fairer/desirable reward system?

Finally, quests need to be a) unlocked on all difficulties (barring certain "raid" dungeons perhaps) b) balanced c) make the optional stuff worthwhile. If you look at LFG, 95% of the groups are going to cherry picked xp quests or raids. CO6, Delaria's, The Kobold's new ring leader, and West are all prime examples. The reason all quests should be unlocked on all difficulties is because, some quests are naturally going to be a more "desirable" xp rate. However, if they are unlocked on all difficulties, the faction combined with the +50% xp from elite will make them worth doing *at least once* at the correct level range. Optional stuff should be worth something more like 10-25% of the quest's total xp. For example, if a quest has 3000 xp reward, and a short optional quest, it should be worth 300 xp, and if it is a long optional quest, it should be worth 850 xp.

JD2134
08-09-2007, 01:21 AM
I had no problem lvl toon up, when i 1st started to play, Goodblade quest followed by WW then some other harbor stuff then on to STK , and generally after doing WW STK, Dirks, Ringleader, and a few other quest in the harbor i had my 400 favor. I admit exp may seem abit slow in coming, But general i can solo my toon to 2 in maybe a hour and with a group or two can hit 3 within 3 hours or so.. Right now im at 9 and that with maybe two and half weeks of playing him off and on.

I do agree that most group and im one of them cherry pick quest, SC, gwyens, Deleras, and such till we hit ten then it Gianthold and run it till it dry

Rydlic
08-09-2007, 05:55 AM
First off you need to know something.

Back at release you really had to grind it, it was 2000 exp per rank a level one and 4000 exp per rank at level 2, that was huge and it took you a good long grind to get up there. That has been reduced by 1000 per rank at level one and 500 per rank at level 2. On top of that there was that Gate that blocked the first harbor from the second and you **had** to complete Water Works to move on. There was no favor/drow/mail/auction/explorer areas. These all have had a huge shift in game play and dynamics.

My point is they have made the first few levels easier, and given you more options over all other than just leveling. Well, that is all I have to say about that.

CSFurious
08-09-2007, 06:08 AM
i would actually look for some drow who are between level 1 & 4 or are players who are carrying "shiny" weapons in the harbor, you should play with them

they will show you how to level up fast

i started my newest toon, on Monday night, & after about 12 hours of play, i am already well into level 4 & will be level 5 very soon

Shaamis
08-09-2007, 06:31 AM
Turbine has made the game more newbie-friendly, but before that, in the long-long ago, you HAD to make friends, group with them, learn from them, and be a real team, in order to get anywhere.

Back when +2 elemental effect weapons were the uber weapon for level 6-8 characters, and there was no such thing as vorpals, disruptors, banishers, and smiters.

Now you have twinked characters running around with super-bad weapons from the start, probably have a few +1 tomes they have read already, these quests are more of a speed bump than a challenge.

My advice: If you want the fast way, find an experienced player running a new lowbie, and have him help you get in the fast lane.

If you are on Khyber, look me up, and I can assist you as well.

Sincerely,

7-day_Trial_Monkey
08-09-2007, 08:07 AM
If Turbine wants DDO to attract more people, they need to stream line the first 5 levels, and make "auto choice" leveling options.

That would prevent new players from learning the game. Besides, there is no such thing as a right choice or ideal choice when leveling. It is definitely a 'to each their own' situation. And it is only by making mistakes and trying again that you will realy learn.


Here's a good example (200 faction, 1 free feat respec, 500 faction +2 free skill points, 1000 faction +1 stat point, 1500 faction +1 Action Point, 2000 faction 1 free feat, 2500 faction +10 hp, 3000 faction +10 faction, etc. etc.) See how easy it was for me to come up with a much fairer/desirable reward system?

There is nothing unfair about the current system since it applies equaly to everyone. Your opinion that 28 pt builds is somehow gimped compared to 32 pt build only shows that you don't know what you are talking about. You will never be able to run through a few quests with a fixed group and then declare who is a 28 pt and who is a 32 pt. Equipment is 100x more significant.

By the way there already is favor rewards for: free feat respec, free stat tome, free +10 hp


Finally, quests need to be a) unlocked on all difficulties (barring certain "raid" dungeons perhaps) b) balanced c) make the optional stuff worthwhile. If you look at LFG, 95% of the groups are going to cherry picked xp quests or raids. CO6, Delaria's, The Kobold's new ring leader, and West are all prime examples. The reason all quests should be unlocked on all difficulties is because, some quests are naturally going to be a more "desirable" xp rate. However, if they are unlocked on all difficulties, the faction combined with the +50% xp from elite will make them worth doing *at least once* at the correct level range. Optional stuff should be worth something more like 10-25% of the quest's total xp. For example, if a quest has 3000 xp reward, and a short optional quest, it should be worth 300 xp, and if it is a long optional quest, it should be worth 850 xp.

This would make it harder to get groups doing quests at the other difficulty levels. That would make it harder to level because as it is now, you can usualy find others who want to do it on normal, hard, then elite to get the 1st time xp bonus for each difficulty.

I can't find anything in your post that I agree with.

Cedrica-the-Bard
08-09-2007, 08:33 AM
It's Favor not Faction!!!!!!! Aaarrrggghhhh!!!!!

Hehe, sorry, pet peeve of mine...

The_Silver_Griffon
08-09-2007, 08:40 AM
The only change that I would like to see to the favor system is to make the total favor rewards based on account rather than character. In other words, the highest favor earned for each quest across all characters should be used for total favor since it affects the entire account. So, once I have done WW on Elite with one character, it is reflected in the total for the entire account. The other individual characters still have to do WW on Elite for their personal Coin Lords favor, though. The only total favor award that is character based is the +2 tome, but that shouldn't be too big a deal. Just assign it to the character with the highest personal favor total.

After all, I always thought it was silly to open my Drow's compendium and have it tell me I haven't unlocked Drow. :eek:

Girevik
08-09-2007, 09:05 AM
I can't find anything in your post that I agree with.

Well, just to prove that "it takes all kinds", I agree with almost everything in the original poster's post.

I absolutely despise the "unlocking" aspect of the game and the way it discourages the creation of "gimped" alts.

I also don't think "find a twinked character who will power-level you" is the solution to making the early game friendlier for new characters.

I think if anything, those 32-point, super-twinked characters, running around side-by-side with true-new players does a lot to make the new players feel out of place and like they are missing something.

It would have been better for them to have the favor only affect the character who earned it, and maybe provide an account bonus of "now you can start at fourth level" or so for 1750 favor, so true new players would not need to have the game ruined for them by joining groups with 32-point twinks.


This game does have a large learning curve. The forums are good for addressing a lot of it, but there should be better -or better publicized- in-game features as well.

It definitely IS better now than when it was first released. The in-game quest list is a definite aid. If there was a bit more help on the pre-requisites for starting each quest when you clicked on the quest, that would help quite a bit as well.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-09-2007, 09:28 AM
However, the 32 points characters are just too tempting, I haven't been able to bring myself to make a "gimped" character. (Argue all you want, I've played too much D&D to get over it.)

Since you normally roll for D&D chars and they aren't all exactly the same stat bonuses I'm a bit surprised to hear a player saying that another 1 or 2 points on 1 or 2 stats is gimped. Very MMO like to say that, not very D&D.



This next part is merely opinion...
I'd say that DDO definately lacks a good newbie experience. As soon as a character leaves the wayward lobster, they immediately are confronted with insufficient help. If Turbine wants DDO to attract more people, they need to stream line the first 5 levels, and make "auto choice" leveling options.

I don't understand what you mean by you get less help after the Lobster than before.

As for auto levelling...I don't think we want to encourage autobuilds. For one thing whatever Turbine picks as the automatic option others will argue is gimped and people will whine loudly later that they should get a free respec because of it. We already hear that for the automatic char creation.



It's Favor not Faction!!!!!!! Aaarrrggghhhh!!!!!

Hehe, sorry, pet peeve of mine...

Me too... and its SP not mana while we are at it.

Girevik
08-09-2007, 10:08 AM
Since you normally roll for D&D chars and they aren't all exactly the same stat bonuses I'm a bit surprised to hear a player saying that another 1 or 2 points on 1 or 2 stats is gimped. Very MMO like to say that, not very D&D.

Let me put it in D&D perspective for you then.

You're Jonesing to play some D&D, so you answer a post on the bulletin board at the local gaming shop to join a new D&D campaign that is starting.

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM tells the players on your right and left, that since he has played with them before, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

joker965
08-09-2007, 10:17 AM
To each their own. The entire idea that a 28 pt build is gimped is just strange to me. If anyone can tell that my 14 cleric is gimped by his 28pt build then I might have a cookie for them.

Almost every MMO that I have played when I started long after the game started was somewhat dificult at the begining. Should we try to make it easier? Sure.

oronisi
08-09-2007, 10:33 AM
Let me put it in D&D perspective for you then.

You're Jonesing to play some D&D, so you answer a post on the bulletin board at the local gaming shop to join a new D&D campaign that is starting.

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM tells the players on your right and left, that since he has played with them before, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

Heh, I'd call that nerd-hazing. It's completely acceptable, and funny to boot. Ease up, it's just a game....even your imaginary senario.

Shaamis
08-09-2007, 10:34 AM
Let me put it in D&D perspective for you then.

You're Jonesing to play some D&D, so you answer a post on the bulletin board at the local gaming shop to join a new D&D campaign that is starting.

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM tells the players on your right and left, that since he has played with them before, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

That is an unfair analogy.

It would be more like:

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM informs you that the players on the right and left have played for several months in this campaign world, and are re-rolling their 10th level charcters as lvl 1, due to a reality-shift occurence from a previous adventure. Because they are starting over again, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

That is more accurate, because not only it shows a reward for time spent, but also allows them a reason for the items and player experience they have accumulated.

While the new player was elsewhere, IN ANOTHER GAME, spending their time that way, others have been spending their time playing this one. You should be rewarded for your loyalty.

Hence rewards in this manner.

There should be more incremental rewards, and maybe different rewards, but they started down this road, and they will have to make hard decisions to change their course.

I worked my butt off for the 1750 favor, it wasn't easy, but I felt like I made a great accomplishment when I got it, and I don't want to see someone who has played this game for a week, get it handed to them.

Call me selfish, and whatever you want, but I earned it, and I think others should have to earn it as well.

Ithrani
08-09-2007, 11:13 AM
If anyone is finding leveling difficult it is because they are not familiar with the PnP rules. Feats are nearly all straight from the books, there are modifications on a few due to the real time combat and lack of PnP combat tactics. Otherwise leveling up is just about the easiest thing to do in the game. Knowing the rules is a huge help in getting started and an even bigger advantage at early levels and being new to the game. Any gamer who doesn't really know PnP rules or where to find them must only be a PC/console gamer and doesn't RP at all. If you never Rp'ed your not a well versed gamer. I personally do not have sympathy for anyone who comes playing a game named DnD Online and doesn't know the rules at all, unless they are willing to go the step necessary and read the information. There are plenty of guides, builds, and info all here on the DDO site including a fairly updated compendium with all the new enhancements, feats, spells. And there are PnP rules post on both Wizards site and www.d20srd.org Everything you need to know about the basics of the game are on those pages and here. So if you feel like your being oppressed at levels 1-5 this game is not for you; I started last year before alot of the bigger changes took place and early levels were easy, but I was also well prepared. And on a last note favor is not a deterrent, it is a choice. You want a Drow work for it, they are a +2 level adjustment in PnP so a level 1 drow fighter is a level 3 character. Thats why you work for it if you want it, and as others have said 400 favor is a cake walk, you can either repeat early quest up to elite, or just run the gamut of quest and before level 10 you will have 400 favor.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-09-2007, 11:26 AM
That is an unfair analogy.

It would be more like:

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM informs you that the players on the right and left have played for several months in this campaign world, and are re-rolling their 10th level charcters as lvl 1, due to a reality-shift occurence from a previous adventure. Because they are starting over again, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

That is more accurate, because not only it shows a reward for time spent, but also allows them a reason for the items and player experience they have accumulated.

While the new player was elsewhere, IN ANOTHER GAME, spending their time that way, others have been spending their time playing this one. You should be rewarded for your loyalty.


Yikes that would be a horrible DM, I'd walk out. In a PnP game favoratism doesn't make any sense at all.

Here its just a method to make you waste your time grinding, its a sales pitch to keep you busy, nothing more. It makes no sense, the OP is correct that it is unfair. And that's coming from someone with two 1750s and who still plays 28pt builds because I don't think it makes that much difference.

Shaamis
08-09-2007, 12:04 PM
Yikes that would be a horrible DM, I'd walk out. In a PnP game favoratism doesn't make any sense at all.

Here its just a method to make you waste your time grinding, its a sales pitch to keep you busy, nothing more. It makes no sense, the OP is correct that it is unfair. And that's coming from someone with two 1750s and who still plays 28pt builds because I don't think it makes that much difference.

personally I would walk out too, but I didnt say it was fair, just that he painted an unfair picture of a PnP/DDO comparison.:D

To analyze the definition of a "grind" vs. "playing the game" is simply one you do it with a smile on your face, the other is with a scowl. The moment you do not like leveling your character, it becomes a "grind". at that point in time, you should stop, but so many of us think that the prize (level, favor, items, recognition) is worth it.

Of course DDO is a time sink! Turbine is not doing this for charity's sake, or our monthly fees would = $0.00/month. Since people whole-heartedly will play this game for 40, 50, 60 or more hours a week, Turbine has to put lengthy taskks in your way to keep you playing. the only way I see getting away from timesinks, would be limiting the amount of time you can play each character a month. Can you imagine the outcry then?

As an aside, I pay $15/month, which is cheaper than the $30 per PnP expansion books they have been putting out recently. This game is cheaper than that by far, and don't say the value of the books get better over time, they do not. I had the copy of Deities and Demigods (mint condition), with the Cthullu and Melnibonean (Elric:Stormbringer) Mythos, and it sold on Ebay for $50.

I remember when 2nd edition came out, the reasoning behind that was ".....you don't have to carry 13 sourcebooks around!" just the PHB, DMG and Monster manual, in a binder format!

What a bunch of &^$%^

Girevik
08-09-2007, 12:24 PM
personally I would walk out too, ...

So, you would both walk out in PnP, yet you can't agree with the original poster's statement that "the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players"?

If you wouldn't put up with it in PnP, why is it a good idea for the developers to treat new players that way in DDO?

efreet5
08-09-2007, 12:30 PM
As far as I'm concerned 28 pt toons are not gimped that significantly. Yes, I've unlocked 32 pt builds for myself, but many of the good players I know still have several 28 pt toons which they refuse to reroll for various reasons and most of them are very good toons. The biggest difference between toons is the players skill and while a 32 pt fighter might have more hp/str/etc. it won't mean a thing if he doesnt' know what he's doing, while a 28 pt toon could played by a skilled player would have little or no problems.

As for the grind...Dude, the first time I went through everything leveling up I had a blast. The first time I did Stormcleave and I saw a hill giant running at me I was all ready to run :p. Also, if you're a powergamer like me, the 1750 favor shouldn't be that big of a problem when you run out of content after a few weeks. It just forces you to do all those quests you skipped out on. Plus, getting 1750 is SO much easier now that Gianthold is around with that extra ~240 favor. If you don't want to tolerate getting 32 pt builds through favor, then don't, dont' complain that it's too hard when in actuality it has gotten A LOT easier and will continue to get easier as time goes on.:mad:

Shaamis
08-09-2007, 01:02 PM
So, you would both walk out in PnP, yet you can't agree with the original poster's statement that "the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players"?

If you wouldn't put up with it in PnP, why is it a good idea for the developers to treat new players that way in DDO?

PnP and DDO are not the same, that's why. The MMO players philosophy is "get it now, beat it a second later, and move on" but myself (not speaking for other PnP players), I want to savor the experience, earn our XP/items/benefits, and reap the benefits of our hard labor, BEFORE moving on to the next game (MMO or PnP). In order for teh investment of an MMO to survive, it has to maintain the interest of it's players, by hook, or by crook.

If you give people things that earlier players worked hard to get, what's the point? where does it stop? Might as well have a weapon shop where every weapon you could ever want is available, for free. When the players that get 32-point characters for free get bored, they will want more stuff for free.

There have been so many threads about the 28/32 point build, it's crazy. the difference between a 32 point build, and a 28 point build, is shown below:

28 Point build: 32 point build:
Str: 17 Str: 18
Dex:13 Dex:14
Con:12 Con:12
Int:10 Int:10
Wis:8 Wis:8
Cha:12 Cha:12

The addition of two +1 tomes would make the difference up. If you think a 28 point build is gimping a character for the REST of his existence, you are sadly mistaken. My main is a 28 point Dwarven dual -pick wielder, his stats are:

Str: 30
Dex: 22
Con: 22
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 6

I do just fine. I also have a pleathora of 32 point builds, that will do just as fine, not better.

sigtrent
08-09-2007, 01:08 PM
I love the unlock system, I'd like more features like it. But I like making new characters and its fun to have a new option when making new characters. I don't at all mind the idea that I need to earn that option. Fair has nothing to do with it. Everyone uses the same rules, you want 32pt characters you must do certain things to get them. The are not "standard". All of those who started the game had to start the game the same way. But having played it quite a bit we have an additional option.

I think having level templates for new players would be nice. Some folks just don't want to have to think about it. For me, the complexity and customization are why I play DDO.

I like the OPs suggestions for quests. I think all unlock is good and the way the game works you might as well. I think that better XP for optionals is a great idea even if it means less XP for not doing any. I think many of the quests have unbalanced rewards and difficulties compared to others of their level and a pass through reward and quest level would be a great thing.

Girevik
08-09-2007, 01:23 PM
If you give people things that earlier players worked hard to get, what's the point? where does it stop? Might as well have a weapon shop where every weapon you could ever want is available, for free. When the players that get 32-point characters for free get bored, they will want more stuff for free.

There have been so many threads about the 28/32 point build, it's crazy.

There have been a bunch, and I am not advocating being awarded 32-point builds as a reward for 30 days of continuous subscription. I have no problem with the "character" that opened the 32-point build being taken back to their initial stat-buy screen with a 32-point budget. I just don't think 32-point 2nd level characters should be swimming in the same pond as 28-point 2nd level characters. Sure, the fact they have eaten six tomes and have uber-race-restricted elemental weapons may be even more unbalancing than the four build points, but that doesn't mean the build points don't have some effect.

Zenako
08-09-2007, 01:52 PM
However, keep in mind that many quests actually play differently on the different settings due to the nature and abilities of the mobs changing as their CR's go up.

If you want to run something on a level you cannot open yourself, form a group and get someone who can. I see that all the time. No big deal. Lots of people are willing to join up for 2 minutes to unlock a quest and get you started, and guess what, that is one of the paradigms of the game design, grouping to work together to defeat quests. Forming a group is the first step and anything that forces or encourages that behavoir conforms to some of the design objectives of the MMO that is DDO.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
08-09-2007, 02:06 PM
So what is the difference? You say there is one. Everyone seems to think that there is no way to tell the difference. So what are you talking about?

Can you play for a few hours with a pair of level 2s, with them wearing equal equipment and be able to tell apart the 28 for the 32?

Of course not.

Zenako
08-09-2007, 02:23 PM
The problem with trying to observe differences, is that the player with the 32 point character has had to play this game and learn it, so by default they will likely play their character more effectively than a random 28 point build, by the simple virtue of having played more.

Over time, you might be able to see if one character seems to hit 5% more often or get missed a few percent more often, but that is a very subjective observation given the variety of situations you will find yourself in.

Ironically it seems that people make a big point of having the 32 point builds, but then point out that at end game, Defence (ie DEX) does not matter since everything hits you anyway, that DPS is so large that a few points more or less do not matter, and that they can hit all the mobs all the time anyway so that extra point of STR does not matter. It matters, yet it doesn't matter...depends on who you listen to and when.

wundernewb
08-09-2007, 05:56 PM
Let me put it in D&D perspective for you then.

You're Jonesing to play some D&D, so you answer a post on the bulletin board at the local gaming shop to join a new D&D campaign that is starting.

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM tells the players on your right and left, that since he has played with them before, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

To be honest, it's really more like the other players get to roll 8 dice while you get to roll 7.

32-pt builds don't make nearly as much difference as you seem to think. It's worth an actual 1 or 2 ability points in almost all cases.

What does make the difference is the item twinking. Granted, DDO makes it a lot easier to do than any other MMO I've played, but in any other MMO, by the time I've had a character to the stage where he has stuff worth handing down, I've never had any trouble finding someone trustworthy to handle the swap for me. Basically, the only difference is that in DDO, I can do it whenever I want, (assuming I'm not broke) whereas in other MMO's, I might have to wait awhile until a friend comes on.

AFAIK, no MMO makes it impossible to twink your lower-level characters.

Seneca_Windforge
08-09-2007, 07:58 PM
I would've preferred rewards for the unlocking character only, as well. I think it would be superior to the current system.

On the other hand, the current system is the route that Turbine has chosen. It doesn't bother me that much, though I certainly wouldn't complain if I could retroactively spend Seneca up to 32 points. I've long since stopped caring about it, though.

Really, anyone who ever says that 1 point of stat modifier or 1 point of attack bonus or damage is significant is detached from reality.

rikori2
08-10-2007, 03:54 AM
If anyone is finding leveling difficult it is because they are not familiar with the PnP rules.
I went to Gencon last year. Keep in mind this is a conference that revolves around D&D - a third of the dealers room is Wizards of the Coast. During a Q&A, we did an impromptu check to see how many people played DDO (all played D&D.) 1 out of 30 people raised their hands. D&D has sold 2.5 million books (worldwide). By that logic, the maximum amount of people who'd play this game who know the D&D rules are 83,333 people. I say that's a pretty crappy pool of people to market towards.


So if you feel like your being oppressed at levels 1-5 this game is not for you; I started last year before alot of the bigger changes took place and early levels were easy, but I was also well prepared.
There's this awesome game called Neocron. However it has the most hostile elitest community ever. Needless to say, it has never been very successful.


You want a Drow work for it, they are a +2 level adjustment in PnP so a level 1 drow fighter is a level 3 character.
I'd take a +2 level adjustment if I had levitate, 11+ character level spell resistance (with NO AP spent) versus damaging spells as well, darkvision actually mattered... I can keep punching holes in your worm wood boat if you'd like...


Thats why you work for it if you want it, and as others have said 400 favor is a cake walk, you can either repeat early quest up to elite, or just run the gamut of quest and before level 10 you will have 400 favor.
I said in my original post that I have a drow, it's the other characters I won't play.


personally I would walk out too, but I didnt say it was fair, just that he painted an unfair picture of a PnP/DDO comparison.:D

I would offer to DM (I DM most weeks for over 5 years now.) If they refused, I'd walk out. Favoritism, as well as hefty xp penalties for players who miss a session, party infighting, etc. are some of the things that cause D&D to have such a bad "nerdy" reputation. Also, DDO is more like, "Ok, your characters are level 14 now, you can either choose to come to a 2nd session each week and start a new character and play catchup, or you can keep playing that one, but with the inferior stat progression.

Also, my group has been using point buy ever since 3.5 came out. Sometimes for kicks and giggles we don't, but very rarely.


If you want to run something on a level you cannot open yourself, form a group and get someone who can. I see that all the time. No big deal. Lots of people are willing to join up for 2 minutes to unlock a quest and get you started, and guess what, that is one of the paradigms of the game design, grouping to work together to defeat quests.
I personally believe (somebody who studies and writes about game design as a hobby, www.escapistmagazine.com is my favorite, btw, but gamasutra is excellant for a different reason) that if players are "working around" your game mechanic, the mechanic is broken and needs to be fixed. Also, if DDO's devs agreed with you, they wouldn't be trying so hard to make "solo" difficulties.

ahpook
08-10-2007, 01:39 PM
Really, anyone who ever says that 1 point of stat modifier or 1 point of attack bonus or damage is significant is detached from reality.

Well 32 pt build doesn't have to be 1 stat point. My 28 pt rogue would have loved +2 will saves and +2 spot from the get go. The number of will saves he has missed resulting in death is noticeable.

I would agree that 28 pt builds are not "gimped" and are playable but to say that that 4 extra points is not significant is misleading. I would have preferred if favor was limited to bonuses on the character who gained the favor. However, complaining about that is tilting at windmills.

xman26
08-10-2007, 01:49 PM
That would prevent new players from learning the game. Besides, there is no such thing as a right choice or ideal choice when leveling. It is definitely a 'to each their own' situation. And it is only by making mistakes and trying again that you will realy learn.



There is nothing unfair about the current system since it applies equaly to everyone. Your opinion that 28 pt builds is somehow gimped compared to 32 pt build only shows that you don't know what you are talking about. You will never be able to run through a few quests with a fixed group and then declare who is a 28 pt and who is a 32 pt. Equipment is 100x more significant.

By the way there already is favor rewards for: free feat respec, free stat tome, free +10 hp



This would make it harder to get groups doing quests at the other difficulty levels. That would make it harder to level because as it is now, you can usualy find others who want to do it on normal, hard, then elite to get the 1st time xp bonus for each difficulty.

I can't find anything in your post that I agree with.

I agree with him about the 28 pt character, hell even 32 is low. I can roll up a character using dice and have far better stats than the system used for the game.

PurdueDave
08-10-2007, 01:52 PM
So, you would both walk out in PnP, yet you can't agree with the original poster's statement that "the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players"?

If you wouldn't put up with it in PnP, why is it a good idea for the developers to treat new players that way in DDO?

I agree. It's a good comparison and it's a bad idea for DDO.

xman26
08-10-2007, 01:56 PM
I went to Gencon last year. Keep in mind this is a conference that revolves around D&D - a third of the dealers room is Wizards of the Coast. During a Q&A, we did an impromptu check to see how many people played DDO (all played D&D.) 1 out of 30 people raised their hands. D&D has sold 2.5 million books (worldwide). By that logic, the maximum amount of people who'd play this game who know the D&D rules are 83,333 people. I say that's a pretty crappy pool of people to market towards.


There's this awesome game called Neocron. However it has the most hostile elitest community ever. Needless to say, it has never been very successful.


I'd take a +2 level adjustment if I had levitate, 11+ character level spell resistance (with NO AP spent) versus damaging spells as well, darkvision actually mattered... I can keep punching holes in your worm wood boat if you'd like...


I said in my original post that I have a drow, it's the other characters I won't play.


I would offer to DM (I DM most weeks for over 5 years now.) If they refused, I'd walk out. Favoritism, as well as hefty xp penalties for players who miss a session, party infighting, etc. are some of the things that cause D&D to have such a bad "nerdy" reputation. Also, DDO is more like, "Ok, your characters are level 14 now, you can either choose to come to a 2nd session each week and start a new character and play catchup, or you can keep playing that one, but with the inferior stat progression.

Also, my group has been using point buy ever since 3.5 came out. Sometimes for kicks and giggles we don't, but very rarely.


I personally believe (somebody who studies and writes about game design as a hobby, www.escapistmagazine.com is my favorite, btw, but gamasutra is excellant for a different reason) that if players are "working around" your game mechanic, the mechanic is broken and needs to be fixed. Also, if DDO's devs agreed with you, they wouldn't be trying so hard to make "solo" difficulties.

Glad I dont game with you. Point buy is the worst thing they ever did to the game. I can roll up a character with better stats then using a pt buy system.

Ananvil
08-10-2007, 02:19 PM
Glad I dont game with you. Point buy is the worst thing they ever did to the game. I can roll up a character with better stats then using a pt buy system.

D&D isn't about beating the game. Rolling causes inherit imbalances across parties. If I roll a 15 point buy character (I DID yesterday, actually, with 4d6 drop the lowest) and you roll a 54 point buy (Done that too), then we suddenly have an imbalance of power. Saying everyone gets X point buy provides a bit more balance. That way no one is 'better' than another.

Obviously can you roll 'better' characters than point buy. You could roll all 18s if you hit that 1 in 101559956668416 chance. You could also roll all 3s.

Ananvil
08-10-2007, 02:31 PM
The stats do not make the character, the player makes the character.

Of course. But the player uses the stats to make the character. =)

Shaamis
08-10-2007, 02:33 PM
Regardless of all the chit-chat, D&D existed for years, grew, prospered, and became the icon of the gaming industry long before point-buy systems became the norm. 4 points of difference between 28 and 32 builds is 12.5% and you can only say it really is a big difference, if you make the most mediochre character ever, with all 9s and 11s for stats, where the 4 points make the most difference.

I have a halfling barbarian named Grrrrrrr ( 7 Rs btw) and he is super fun to play. I don't think of him as gimped because he has a -2 to strength, I just like playing him, and if you like playing a character, you will find ways to make him or her work, no matter what.

The stats do not make the character, the player makes the character.

xman26
08-10-2007, 02:48 PM
D&D isn't about beating the game. Rolling causes inherit imbalances across parties. If I roll a 15 point buy character (I DID yesterday, actually, with 4d6 drop the lowest) and you roll a 54 point buy (Done that too), then we suddenly have an imbalance of power. Saying everyone gets X point buy provides a bit more balance. That way no one is 'better' than another.

Obviously can you roll 'better' characters than point buy. You could roll all 18s if you hit that 1 in 101559956668416 chance. You could also roll all 3s.


I'm sorry, but when you roll, it doesn't cost you 2pt for 15 and 16 or 3 pt for 17 or 18. It is a strraight roll of the dice. And I can roll a better character using just 3 dice with my lowest stat being a 10 off the bat. The PT system is flawed, it shouldn't cost more to get higher numbers. Your dice dont merge when you roll them do they? Why should adding pt cost more. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the game, when the client isn't crashing on me, but I whole heartedly disagree with pt systems. It is the worst thing that has been done to DnD since moving attack bonus to str for melee and ranged only for dex. You could be Arnold Swartzenagger, but if you have the flexability of the rusted tin man, you wouldn't be able to attack very well. According to the new rules, unless you are ranging someone, you are very flexable if you are very strong. Sorry, that just flies in the face of reality.

Shaamis
08-10-2007, 03:46 PM
I'm sorry, but when you roll, it doesn't cost you 2pt for 15 and 16 or 3 pt for 17 or 18. It is a strraight roll of the dice. And I can roll a better character using just 3 dice with my lowest stat being a 10 off the bat. The PT system is flawed, it shouldn't cost more to get higher numbers. Your dice dont merge when you roll them do they? Why should adding pt cost more. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the game, when the client isn't crashing on me, but I whole heartedly disagree with pt systems. It is the worst thing that has been done to DnD since moving attack bonus to str for melee and ranged only for dex. You could be Arnold Swartzenagger, but if you have the flexability of the rusted tin man, you wouldn't be able to attack very well. According to the new rules, unless you are ranging someone, you are very flexable if you are very strong. Sorry, that just flies in the face of reality.

They do the current point-buy method that way for balance.

I remember they used to use an 84 point stat buying system, and people would make their stats:

18/100 Strength (29 points)
14 Dex (16 points)
14 Con (16 points)
7 Int
6 Wis
6 Cha
6 Com

and the reasoning was that "...why should I spend points on dump stats when I can just crank up my main stat, cuz it costs the same."

hence a new stat point buying method.

The D&D system is not the most detailed or balanced, but it is the best known, and it's the closest marriage of rules-to-reality out there. There are more detailed games (Like Role-Master and M.E.R.P.) and much less detailed (like GURPS)

Dex and Str should be added together, and the average stat should be what the mod is based off of.

But that kind of details muddy up the system, so it is kept light on teh rules, for sake of gameplay.

If DDO modifies the core rules in this way, who knows how the game will morph down the road.


Could get UGLY, not only in the rules, but in the customer response.

xman26
08-10-2007, 04:15 PM
They do the current point-buy method that way for balance.

I remember they used to use an 84 point stat buying system, and people would make their stats:

18/100 Strength (29 points)
14 Dex (16 points)
14 Con (16 points)
7 Int
6 Wis
6 Cha
6 Com

and the reasoning was that "...why should I spend points on dump stats when I can just crank up my main stat, cuz it costs the same."

hence a new stat point buying method.

The D&D system is not the most detailed or balanced, but it is the best known, and it's the closest marriage of rules-to-reality out there. There are more detailed games (Like Role-Master and M.E.R.P.) and much less detailed (like GURPS)

Dex and Str should be added together, and the average stat should be what the mod is based off of.

But that kind of details muddy up the system, so it is kept light on teh rules, for sake of gameplay.

If DDO modifies the core rules in this way, who knows how the game will morph down the road.


Could get UGLY, not only in the rules, but in the customer response.

1. All that for 84pts, see the flaw yet?
2. Only those interested in one deminisional fighter characters(or 1 demonsional charcters period) would do that
3. They should have given people the option to pt buy or roll characters when they made the game. Some would have taken pt buy, other would have chosen roll.
4. In 1st and 2nd ed DnD, your attack bonus was based on Dex. Now it is str, see the problem?
5. Again, I enjoy the game, just dont care for pt buy systems as they suck.

Ithrani
08-10-2007, 04:27 PM
I went to Gencon last year. Keep in mind this is a conference that revolves around D&D - a third of the dealers room is Wizards of the Coast. During a Q&A, we did an impromptu check to see how many people played DDO (all played D&D.) 1 out of 30 people raised their hands. D&D has sold 2.5 million books (worldwide). By that logic, the maximum amount of people who'd play this game who know the D&D rules are 83,333 people. I say that's a pretty crappy pool of people to market towards.

I don't care if people who play DnD play DDO, I care the many DDO players don't know PnP rules.

I'd take a +2 level adjustment if I had levitate, 11+ character level spell resistance (with NO AP spent) versus damaging spells as well, darkvision actually mattered... I can keep punching holes in your worm wood boat if you'd like...

Your not punching holes in anything, I would also take that level adjustment cause I play PnP and I like those rules. My point was they are better then standard and should have something that makes them either A. harder to get
B. harder to level early



responses in red

Seneca_Windforge
08-10-2007, 05:37 PM
Well 32 pt build doesn't have to be 1 stat point. My 28 pt rogue would have loved +2 will saves and +2 spot from the get go. The number of will saves he has missed resulting in death is noticeable.

I would agree that 28 pt builds are not "gimped" and are playable but to say that that 4 extra points is not significant is misleading. I would have preferred if favor was limited to bonuses on the character who gained the favor. However, complaining about that is tilting at windmills.

I wasn't actually referring to the 4 extra points only, there. I was including things like Divine Favor capping at +3, and Barkskin being reduced by a point (and the ensuing tantrums that people threw over those single points).

Basically, if you take two fighters, one has +28 to hit and the other has +27, the difference between the two will be practically nil.

Seneca_Windforge
08-10-2007, 05:47 PM
1. All that for 84pts, see the flaw yet?
2. Only those interested in one deminisional fighter characters(or 1 demonsional charcters period) would do that
3. They should have given people the option to pt buy or roll characters when they made the game. Some would have taken pt buy, other would have chosen roll.
4. In 1st and 2nd ed DnD, your attack bonus was based on Dex. Now it is str, see the problem?
5. Again, I enjoy the game, just dont care for pt buy systems as they suck.

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that rolling for stats would have been a good idea for DDO clearly does not have a good understanding of game balance.

I used to play in a MUD that let people roll for their stats. The result? Everyone used autoroller programs to roll for hours, days, or even weeks to generate thousands upon thousands of results until they got the super high rare numbers that they wanted. If you used any kind of rolling system in this game, people would just roll over and over until everyone had a ridiculously high point character.

rikori2
08-11-2007, 03:36 AM
Your not punching holes in anything, I would also take that level adjustment cause I play PnP and I like those rules. My point was they are better then standard and should have something that makes them either A. harder to get
B. harder to level early

My point is that the drow from pnp does not equal the drow from DDO. If you think they're the same, you don't understand one of the two games very well.

My first character was an elf with 18/16/10/8/8/8 fighter. If that character had +4 points, I could have +4 wisdom = +2 will (a feat right there!) and skills, or +2 con (another feat there! toughness) and +2 wisdom. 4 points = 4 stat points as far as I'm concerned.

And everyone who's pining for rolling stats - I bet you cheat when you roll. -_-

Hvymetal
08-11-2007, 04:04 AM
My point is that the drow from pnp does not equal the drow from DDO. If you think they're the same, you don't understand one of the two games very well.

My first character was an elf with 18/16/10/8/8/8 fighter. If that character had +4 points, I could have +4 wisdom = +2 will (a feat right there!) and skills, or +2 con (another feat there! toughness) and +2 wisdom. 4 points = 4 stat points as far as I'm concerned.

And everyone who's pining for rolling stats - I bet you cheat when you roll. -_-
Just a question, it appears that you are implying that wis adds to skill points it does not.

wundernewb
08-11-2007, 08:32 AM
4. In 1st and 2nd ed DnD, your attack bonus was based on Dex. Now it is str, see the problem?


Huh? What game were you playing? Back in the 80's when I played, melee attack bonus was always based on Str. Only ranged attack was based on Dex.

Hvymetal
08-11-2007, 10:58 AM
Huh? What game were you playing? Back in the 80's when I played, melee attack bonus was always based on Str. Only ranged attack was based on Dex.
Yup, as far as I remember it's been like this since 1st ed.

I do however believe a few games such as chivalry and sorcery used a system that took into account both stats (or their closest counterparts)

xman26
08-11-2007, 12:58 PM
I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that rolling for stats would have been a good idea for DDO clearly does not have a good understanding of game balance.

I used to play in a MUD that let people roll for their stats. The result? Everyone used autoroller programs to roll for hours, days, or even weeks to generate thousands upon thousands of results until they got the super high rare numbers that they wanted. If you used any kind of rolling system in this game, people would just roll over and over until everyone had a ridiculously high point character.


They could program is to stop rolling after say, 10 rerolls. Also with ability to place those rolls where we saw fit. So much for your concern.

Uska
08-11-2007, 01:45 PM
I'm sorry, but when you roll, it doesn't cost you 2pt for 15 and 16 or 3 pt for 17 or 18. It is a strraight roll of the dice. And I can roll a better character using just 3 dice with my lowest stat being a 10 off the bat. The PT system is flawed, it shouldn't cost more to get higher numbers. Your dice dont merge when you roll them do they? Why should adding pt cost more. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the game, when the client isn't crashing on me, but I whole heartedly disagree with pt systems. It is the worst thing that has been done to DnD since moving attack bonus to str for melee and ranged only for dex. You could be Arnold Swartzenagger, but if you have the flexability of the rusted tin man, you wouldn't be able to attack very well. According to the new rules, unless you are ranging someone, you are very flexable if you are very strong. Sorry, that just flies in the face of reality.

I guess you never knew the rules str was always for melee and dex for ranged unless you took finesse in 3.0 look to my sig for my source of knowlege

Uska
08-11-2007, 02:15 PM
1. All that for 84pts, see the flaw yet?
2. Only those interested in one deminisional fighter characters(or 1 demonsional charcters period) would do that
3. They should have given people the option to pt buy or roll characters when they made the game. Some would have taken pt buy, other would have chosen roll.
4. In 1st and 2nd ed DnD, your attack bonus was based on Dex. Now it is str, see the problem?
5. Again, I enjoy the game, just dont care for pt buy systems as they suck.

Again yoiur wrong wrong wrong in dnd and 1st and 2nd it was is and always was str for melee dex adjust ranged attacks. and with roll systems they are for power gamers unless you limit how many rolls people get.

Uska
08-11-2007, 02:16 PM
They could program is to stop rolling after say, 10 rerolls. Also with ability to place those rolls where we saw fit. So much for your concern.

10 rolls way to many

xman26
08-11-2007, 02:24 PM
Again yoiur wrong wrong wrong in dnd and 1st and 2nd it was is and always was str for melee dex adjust ranged attacks. and with roll systems they are for power gamers unless you limit how many rolls people get.


Yep, you guys who corrected me are right, dug up my books from storage. Sorry about that, was thinking of paladium game systems(rifts).

As to roll systems being for power gamers. HA! I'm hardly a power gamer and I prefer rolling my stats I find the pt buy very, very limiting and it sucks to boot. In 3 complete 6 stat 3d6 rolls, I can make a character that has nothing lower than 10, and atleast 1 17 or 18. With pt buy, you want and 18 and another stat worth while, you sacrafice 1 or 2 other stats. that is complete and utter cr@p to me. And 10 rerolls is not to many when you concider that some people would spend an hour trying to get all 14+ stats. 10 rolls should be more than enough to make a character that is min 10 and atleast 1 18 with 10-14 for the rest.

IMHO, the person who divised the pt buy system should be strung up his balls and beatin with a thorn bush.

Seneca_Windforge
08-11-2007, 05:01 PM
They could program is to stop rolling after say, 10 rerolls. Also with ability to place those rolls where we saw fit. So much for your concern.

Okay. So a person rolls ten times, gets no results he wants, takes the final result, and walks into the game. Next, he jumps back to the character selection screen and deletes the gimped character he just made, and creates a new one, going for another ten rolls...

Give it up, man. There's no good way to implement such a system in an MMO.

Ithrani
08-11-2007, 05:03 PM
My point is that the drow from pnp does not equal the drow from DDO. If you think they're the same, you don't understand one of the two games very well.

My first character was an elf with 18/16/10/8/8/8 fighter. If that character had +4 points, I could have +4 wisdom = +2 will (a feat right there!) and skills, or +2 con (another feat there! toughness) and +2 wisdom. 4 points = 4 stat points as far as I'm concerned.

And everyone who's pining for rolling stats - I bet you cheat when you roll. -_-

Wha? Don't try and tell me what I understand. You seem to be lost, drow get those bonuses and even more to boot in PnP. I know drow in both games are different but thats because this game is only based off the rules. But turbine does what they feel in balancing. Drow with all their powers are godly characters to start with and would only be more powerful as they gained levels. But the fact remains that they are a 32 pt build and that should be worked towards getting, and not just offered to you. Hell your first argument was that you wanted any Elf character to "realize" his heritage when he hits 400 favor, thats insane. Your problem is you wanted to start with a drow and could not, WAAAAA WAAA WAAA, my first PnP character in 2nd edition was a drow, now he's a high level NPC in my game that I run (Greyhawk setting that happens to be chronologically set after my character retired) So if anyone wanted to recreate their PnP Drow more then anyone it was me. I started before favor, before drow and I was jonesing for them to be put into development and become implemented. Know what I did not do, create an Elf with dark skin and named him my Drow. You want your Elf to suddenly become a 32 pt build with drow abilities(enhancements) Find me some PnP backing for that one. I can't be bothered with someone who knows to little about both DDO and PnP to be bothered, I am out. Please go play WoW with your buddy.

Seneca_Windforge
08-11-2007, 05:04 PM
Yep, you guys who corrected me are right, dug up my books from storage. Sorry about that, was thinking of paladium game systems(rifts).

As to roll systems being for power gamers. HA! I'm hardly a power gamer and I prefer rolling my stats I find the pt buy very, very limiting and it sucks to boot. In 3 complete 6 stat 3d6 rolls, I can make a character that has nothing lower than 10, and atleast 1 17 or 18. With pt buy, you want and 18 and another stat worth while, you sacrafice 1 or 2 other stats. that is complete and utter cr@p to me. And 10 rerolls is not to many when you concider that some people would spend an hour trying to get all 14+ stats. 10 rolls should be more than enough to make a character that is min 10 and atleast 1 18 with 10-14 for the rest.

IMHO, the person who divised the pt buy system should be strung up his balls and beatin with a thorn bush.

You do realize that you can use higher point buy than 28, right? In PnP, anyway. Heck, my group uses a whopping 45 -- enough for an 18 and a 16 with points leftover.

Traditionally, when you roll for stats, you roll one time and keep whatever you get. Some DMs allow for 2 or 3 sets of stats, to help ensure you don't get the shaft. But if you're rolling 10+ times, you're really just going for power, there.

xman26
08-11-2007, 05:47 PM
You do realize that you can use higher point buy than 28, right? In PnP, anyway. Heck, my group uses a whopping 45 -- enough for an 18 and a 16 with points leftover.

Traditionally, when you roll for stats, you roll one time and keep whatever you get. Some DMs allow for 2 or 3 sets of stats, to help ensure you don't get the shaft. But if you're rolling 10+ times, you're really just going for power, there.


I have played DnD and countless other games and one thing I can tell you now, with the people I have played with, even using just 3d6 one time for each stat for the group(6 person group, each only rolls 3d6 once for each stat) our numbers were still better than any preprogramed die roller. Why might you ask. because programmers for whatever reason cant or wont program for a totally random die roll. they program in how many 1s,2s,3s,4s,5s and 6s are to be rolled thus making it virtually impossible to make a decent character. If you are lucky, you might get it in an hour. People who do that are nuts and obviously power gamers. Hell, I preferred BGs die rollers, would reroll 2-3 times from default as it was obviously a 28pt setup, and then augment. take from here place there. And I never had a character with anything less than a 10 or more than 1 17/18 but still alot more balanced than the bloody pt system.

xman26
08-11-2007, 05:49 PM
Okay. So a person rolls ten times, gets no results he wants, takes the final result, and walks into the game. Next, he jumps back to the character selection screen and deletes the gimped character he just made, and creates a new one, going for another ten rolls...

Give it up, man. There's no good way to implement such a system in an MMO.

there is and it can be done. pt systems suck IMHO. I'll say it again, whoever invented it should be hung up by the balls and beaten with a thorn bush

Leetsneaks101
08-11-2007, 07:20 PM
If you took a 28 point fighter .. and a 32 point fighter, and threw them into a dungeon with the basic group (cleric/caster/rogue/ranger/2 tanks)... The 32point fighter will not be a god or even worth saying 'dang i wish i was that character' because its 4 stat points! thats what? +1 AC or +10 or 20 HP? Maybe +1 to hit? Its not that BIG of a difference .. and the 28 pt is not gimped whatsoever... if you know how to build what you want to, 4 stat points will not gimp your character, the only thing that will really 'gimp' your character is you.

Symar-FangofLloth
08-11-2007, 07:37 PM
If you took a 28 point fighter .. and a 32 point fighter, and threw them into a dungeon with the basic group (cleric/caster/rogue/ranger/2 tanks)... The 32point fighter will not be a god or even worth saying 'dang i wish i was that character' because its 4 stat points! thats what? +1 AC or +10 or 20 HP? Maybe +1 to hit? Its not that BIG of a difference .. and the 28 pt is not gimped whatsoever... if you know how to build what you want to, 4 stat points will not gimp your character, the only thing that will really 'gimp' your character is you.

The best thing 32pt is good for over 28pt, is making sure your dump stats aren't quite as bad. So, in the case of a "battle-caster" or a "batman build", you won't suck as much. Standard builds and playstyles are basically unaffected by the difference between the points.

Cowdenicus
08-11-2007, 08:48 PM
standard 28 pt buy does suck for pallies (assuming drow aint opened) only because they arguably have 5 important stats. (albeit one is tops at 14).

XFracture
08-11-2007, 09:01 PM
I stopped at "auto-leveling".

If you want a game you don't have to put any thought into, go play pong. However, if you want to learn how to play yer derned class and actually contribute to a party... how about spending the VERY important first 5 levels LEARNING the mechanics of the game and how your chosen profession functions in said game.

I feel no pity for those that want their hand held through the entire process. Nor do I care if they're playing my game or not. Less wipes I have to deal with.

rikori2
08-11-2007, 10:32 PM
Just a question, it appears that you are implying that wis adds to skill points it does not.

+2 wisdom will give you +1 spot, +1 listen, +1 heal and whatever else I'm leaving out.


Wha? Don't try and tell me what I understand. You seem to be lost, drow get those bonuses and even more to boot in PnP. I know drow in both games are different but thats because this game is only based off the rules. But turbine does what they feel in balancing. Drow with all their powers are godly characters to start with and would only be more powerful as they gained levels. But the fact remains that they are a 32 pt build and that should be worked towards getting, and not just offered to you. Hell your first argument was that you wanted any Elf character to "realize" his heritage when he hits 400 favor, thats insane. Your problem is you wanted to start with a drow and could not, WAAAAA WAAA WAAA, my first PnP character in 2nd edition was a drow, now he's a high level NPC in my game that I run (Greyhawk setting that happens to be chronologically set after my character retired) So if anyone wanted to recreate their PnP Drow more then anyone it was me. I started before favor, before drow and I was jonesing for them to be put into development and become implemented. Know what I did not do, create an Elf with dark skin and named him my Drow. You want your Elf to suddenly become a 32 pt build with drow abilities(enhancements) Find me some PnP backing for that one. I can't be bothered with someone who knows to little about both DDO and PnP to be bothered, I am out. Please go play WoW with your buddy.

I'm the one who's lost? You're just typing in angry, run-on sentences. You're the one who's resorted to attacking me with insults. I can't even make a rebuttal against you. However, I'll try and clarify my original statement once more time. The reason Drow are not overpowered in DDO is because they don't have many of the abilities that give them a +2 level adjustment in D&D.

XFracture
08-12-2007, 12:21 AM
The reason Drow are overpowered in DDO is because they don't have many of the abilities that give them a +2 level adjustment in D&D.

Am I reading that right?

Ithrani
08-12-2007, 09:42 AM
Am I reading that right?

I do not know what this guy is talking about at all this whole post. And Rikori2 yeah I am a touch annoyed with you, your acting high and mighty like you know a whole lot about both PnP and DDO. Yet have shown little actual knowledge and made silly statements to start with, such as Elves becoming Drows when you hit 400 favor, or that favor is a deterrent. Your statements are misplaced and your OP is full of nonsensical opinion that you cannot back up with fact. And if you think that my post has run on sentence try looking up some grammar. My punctuation is fine.

Luthen
08-12-2007, 11:09 AM
To begin, I just want to describe my experiences with DDO. I initially saw it from a friend in the dorms who was playing the beta. He said it was ok, but was more focused on adventuring and dungeon crawling than WoW. His words, not mine.
Later, during a fit of boredom during summer of '06, some friends (2 others), myself, and my sister (17 at the time) decided to all try it out. We ended up leveling up two sets of characters to level 3. However, we never got past that point, because of the perceived "grind" we all felt, after all, we weren't getting more XP, but the amount required to level was almost double. We also felt it lacked crucial MMO elements. Particularly my sister, who had never played D&D, was frustrated with the game and choosing feats and such. **I personally love this aspect of the game - but some "rigid leveling" options would probably be good for those who don't. ** We decided we were going to buy the game, after all, I was excited about making a Drow caster, the extra SP would be worth making a caster, who at the time, I didn't enjoy. However, Drow required 400 faction to unlock. **None of us ended up buying the game.**

A year later, during a similar fit of boredom, three of us (my sister declined to participate this time around) picked up DDO again. This time, being much more savvy, we leveled our characters to 6, and unlocked Drow during our free trial. I was also under the impression the level cap had been raised to 20. We all liked the AH. One of my friends decided not to buy, he's very much into solo-ing and just killing monsters in a camp, he's back with WoW. The other two of us bought. I am now playing my Drow and would like to roll a couple other characters. However, the 32 points characters are just too tempting, I haven't been able to bring myself to make a "gimped" character. (Argue all you want, I've played too much D&D to get over it.)

This next part is merely opinion...
I'd say that DDO definately lacks a good newbie experience. As soon as a character leaves the wayward lobster, they immediately are confronted with insufficient help. If Turbine wants DDO to attract more people, they need to stream line the first 5 levels, and make "auto choice" leveling options.

Next, I think the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players. If it was somehow retroactive (for Drow, maybe you could play an Elf, and once Drow were unlocked, you could find out your "true heritage" and for 32 point characters, they could easily call up your original stats and allow you to distribute 4 more points under the same guidelines.) Finally, the "unlockables" need to work across all servers. However, a better option would be **get rid of the unlockables entirely** Give some other reward for high factions that are character specific. Here's a good example (200 faction, 1 free feat respec, 500 faction +2 free skill points, 1000 faction +1 stat point, 1500 faction +1 Action Point, 2000 faction 1 free feat, 2500 faction +10 hp, 3000 faction +10 faction, etc. etc.) See how easy it was for me to come up with a much fairer/desirable reward system?

Finally, quests need to be a) unlocked on all difficulties (barring certain "raid" dungeons perhaps) b) balanced c) make the optional stuff worthwhile. If you look at LFG, 95% of the groups are going to cherry picked xp quests or raids. CO6, Delaria's, The Kobold's new ring leader, and West are all prime examples. The reason all quests should be unlocked on all difficulties is because, some quests are naturally going to be a more "desirable" xp rate. However, if they are unlocked on all difficulties, the faction combined with the +50% xp from elite will make them worth doing *at least once* at the correct level range. Optional stuff should be worth something more like 10-25% of the quest's total xp. For example, if a quest has 3000 xp reward, and a short optional quest, it should be worth 300 xp, and if it is a long optional quest, it should be worth 850 xp.

Do you know how all these long term high level players discovered the fast way to get levels up, and favor, and items? We played the game. For more then just a few days. They stuck around long enough to get to know people and eventually they got new friends and eventually they made guilds and eventually they adapted and overcame. Come back when you have more expierience under your belt young grasshoppah.

Edit: Some newer players these days really bug me. It seems they want things served on a silver plater at times. Now I grant you that many of us old timers want what we want how we want it but then again we've been around since Beta or Headstart and, frankly, we've earned our right to gripe or ask for things. You newer players have no idea how much this game has changed for the better, for the most part, since the early days. Sure you may have tried it for a couple days way back when but that's hardly giving it a fair shot. So quit trying to change things before you have a full grasp of what the game offers. Come back in a couple months when you've gotten to level 10+ and maby 1750 favor.

Hvymetal
08-12-2007, 12:06 PM
Do you know how all these long term high level players discovered the fast way to get levels up, and favor, and items? We played the game. For more then just a few days. They stuck around long enough to get to know people and eventually they got new friends and eventually they made guilds and eventually they adapted and overcame. Come back when you have more expierience under your belt young grasshoppah.

Edit: Some newer players these days really bug me. It seems they want things served on a silver plater at times. Now I grant you that many of us old timers want what we want how we want it but then again we've been around since Beta or Headstart and, frankly, we've earned our right to gripe or ask for things. You newer players have no idea how much this game has changed for the better, for the most part, since the early days. Sure you may have tried it for a couple days way back when but that's hardly giving it a fair shot. So quit trying to change things before you have a full grasp of what the game offers. Come back in a couple months when you've gotten to level 10+ and maby 1750 favor.

QFT

rikori2
08-12-2007, 01:50 PM
Am I reading that right?

Sorry, I corrected it.


I do not know what this guy is talking about at all this whole post. And Rikori2 yeah I am a touch annoyed with you, your acting high and mighty like you know a whole lot about both PnP and DDO. Yet have shown little actual knowledge and made silly statements to start with, such as Elves becoming Drows when you hit 400 favor, or that favor is a deterrent. Your statements are misplaced and your OP is full of nonsensical opinion that you cannot back up with fact. And if you think that my post has run on sentence try looking up some grammar. My punctuation is fine.

I'm not saying all Elves become Drow when they hit 400 favor, I'm saying that it could be used as an alternative method of letting people become Drow. Favor is a deterrent for many people who are considering to buy this game. Obviously, the people who are already paying to play this game don't think it is a deterrent (if they thought that, they wouldn't be paying.) Also, I like that your statement about grammar starts with a conjuction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_conjunction), has a plurality disagreement and lacks a comma between sentence and try. It's almost like you're trying to mock yourself.


So quit trying to change things before you have a full grasp of what the game offers. Come back in a couple months when you've gotten to level 10+ and maby 1750 favor.
I'm level 12, have 1200 favor and have run von6 multiple times.


It seems they want things served on a silver plater at times.
Yeah, it's almost like we pay for the game, every single month. This is a game, not some job where I have to kiss the right ass and pay my dues. I want to log on, and have fun. I then, periodically, would like to be rewarded with a level, a nice item, or some other character advancement. I don't want to be jerked around like DDO is run by Sony.

moorewr
08-12-2007, 01:54 PM
You know, I started in mid-January, and my playtime has always been extremely limited. I doubt I played more than ten hours a week until this summer, and frankly I wasn't very good at this game for quite a while at the start.

I went back just now and looked at my e-mail and you know, I had already unlocked Drow in March. It's just not that hard. Go re-run the harbor quests to elite and you are on your way.

The only thing that ever got me down was being 8th level after Mod 4 came out, and discovering that everyone in the world was running their capped characters in GH. It was hard to find groups for a while. Getting groups are the only thing that ever get me down, and my main guild has been really good about that at all levels recently.


Do you know how all these long term high level players discovered the fast way to get levels up, and favor, and items? We played the game. For more then just a few days. They stuck around long enough to get to know people and eventually they got new friends and eventually they made guilds and eventually they adapted and overcame. Come back when you have more expierience under your belt young grasshoppah.

Edit: Some newer players these days really bug me. It seems they want things served on a silver plater at times. Now I grant you that many of us old timers want what we want how we want it but then again we've been around since Beta or Headstart and, frankly, we've earned our right to gripe or ask for things. You newer players have no idea how much this game has changed for the better, for the most part, since the early days. Sure you may have tried it for a couple days way back when but that's hardly giving it a fair shot. So quit trying to change things before you have a full grasp of what the game offers. Come back in a couple months when you've gotten to level 10+ and maby 1750 favor.

Attomic
08-12-2007, 04:59 PM
Sorry, I corrected it.



I'm not saying all Elves become Drow when they hit 400 favor, I'm saying that it could be used as an alternative method of letting people become Drow. Favor is a deterrent for many people who are considering buying this game. Obviously, the people who are already paying to play this game don't think it is a deterrent (if they thought that, they wouldn't be paying.) Also, I like that your statement about grammar starts with a conjuction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_conjunction), does not have a plurality disagreement and lacks a comma between "sentence" and "try". It's almost like you're trying to mock yourself.


I'm level 12, have 1200 favor and have run VoN6 multiple times.


Yeah, it's almost like we pay for the game, every single month. This is a game, not some job where I have to kiss the right ass and pay my dues. I want to log on, and have fun. I then, periodically, would like to be rewarded with a level, a nice item, or some other character advancement. I don't want to be jerked around like DDO is run by Sony.

There - as you're laudably concerned with correct grammar, syntax and the like, I thought you might appreciate some constructive editing for improvement. ;)

How on earth is playing the game as designed equivalent to "kissing the right ass and paying my dues"? I suppose you play Monopoly already owning several major properties, if your reasoning is logical and consistent. Or is Hasbro jerking you around by making you start from scratch on that one, too?

Seneca_Windforge
08-12-2007, 05:25 PM
Sorry, but playing the game for twelve months as opposed to two months or whatever does not make your opinion any more valid. More informed, maybe, but the OP is entitled to both his opinion and the ability to post said opinion on these forums, and if anyone has a problem with that they'll simply have to deal with it.

To the OP -- I, overall, dislike Drow and the way 32 point build were implemented myself. But while your opinions are valid, Turbine is very unlikely to change the way the favor system works. Believe me, when these features were introduced there were huge threads about both issues, and Turbine didn't budge. As it stands, I can't help but cackle with glee whenever Elves get something that Drow don't (and I cackle even more when the people with Drow start to cry about it).

As it stands, be aware that any Drow you make now will likely be superior than (or at least equal to) any 32 point builds you access in the future. So, if you unlock Drow, make some characters with classes that will benefit from Drow (wizard, sorcerer, rogue, bard...) to play until you hit 1750. Those Drow characters aren't going to be inferior to those new 32 point builds you unlock, since Drow can't be 32 pointers anyway and their stat bonuses are probably worth more than the 4 extra points other's get for those particular classes. I know it isn't as good as being able to upgrade existing 28 point characters to 32, but it will make the process more bearable.

Attomic
08-12-2007, 06:40 PM
Sorry, but playing the game for twelve months as opposed to two months or whatever does not make your opinion any more valid. More informed, maybe, but the OP is entitled to both his opinion and the ability to post said opinion on these forums, and if anyone has a problem with that they'll simply have to deal with it.

Sorry, but in weighing one's ability to make judgements, the more informed one is, the more validity one brings to the table from the get-go. Other things add modifiers to that validity, true, but if you think that five to six times as much experience in a thing doesn't lend a lot more credence to one's judgement of it, you need to reevaluate.

As for the second part, people who disagree with the OP are :eek: ALSO entitled to THEIR opinions and posting them on these forums, and if anyone has a problem with THAT, THEY'll simply have to deal with it, too. It goes BOTH ways.

Melthus
08-12-2007, 08:54 PM
Yeah, it's almost like we pay for the game, every single month. This is a game, not some job where I have to kiss the right ass and pay my dues. I want to log on, and have fun. I then, periodically, would like to be rewarded with a level, a nice item, or some other character advancement. I don't want to be jerked around like DDO is run by Sony.

I started playing DDO earlier this year. My highest char is level 10 (28 point build, of course). I have 4 alts that I play, one of them is drow. I have yet to ever have someone boot me from a group for playing a 28 point build.

The only reason you cannot log on, roll alts, and have fun, is because of your own internal biases. The game is not stopping you. You are!

Either play one character until you hit 1750 favor, only roll drow alts, or just forget about the 4 stat point difference and just enjoy yourself.

I don't find anything about this game to involve "kissing asses" in the least. Paying dues, sure, but then that is no different than levelling, gearing up, and so on.

rikori2
08-12-2007, 09:15 PM
Kissing ass and paying dues was in reference to the people who were saying thing like "I've played D&D since 1st edition and have spent every waking hour of my life since DDO came out playing, I'm entitled, blah blah..."

Attomic
08-13-2007, 06:10 AM
Kissing ass and paying dues was in reference to the people who were saying thing like "I've played D&D since 1st edition and have spent every waking hour of my life since DDO came out playing, I'm entitled, blah blah..."

Would've been a good idea to say as much... but it still wouldn't negate the fact that you come across as asking for it all on a silver platter.

Dimicron
08-13-2007, 06:29 AM
A 28 point build just encourages you to make a pure class build. That way you know how the game is going to play and what you like to do. Once you unlock 32 point builds, you can start trying some odd multiclass combos to try to tweak your characters. But with tomes and whatnot, anything is possible.
Stats are just the beginning, good gear can make a bigger difference in a character than an extra point or two to his/her base stats.