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Sojourner
08-07-2007, 12:43 PM
From various tests, it looks like some weapons give you faster attack speed than other weapons. And, some people have mentioned that some weapons have a longer reach than others.

I would love to get Dev confirmation on this - A simple "yes, some weapons have slightly faster animations than others" or "yes, some weapons have a longer reach than others" would be nice. Or, is it just a matter of graphics not exactly matching the mechanics?

Barring that, if we could get a few people to post with their character class, level, and attack speeds with various weapons, maybe we can put together a definitive list of weapon speeds.

EinarMal
08-07-2007, 12:47 PM
From various tests, it looks like some weapons give you faster attack speed than other weapons. And, some people have mentioned that some weapons have a longer reach than others.

I would love to get Dev confirmation on this - A simple "yes, some weapons have slightly faster animations than others" or "yes, some weapons have a longer reach than others" would be nice. Or, is it just a matter of graphics not exactly matching the mechanics?

Barring that, if we could get a few people to post with their character class, level, and attack speeds with various weapons, maybe we can put together a definitive list of weapon speeds.

I would also include fighting style in this discussion as well, TWF for example versus sword/board or two hander as they have different animations as well.

There is clearly reach in the game. The easiest way to see this is busting barrels. Grab various weapons and test the distance between various barrels to register a "hit". Something like a shortsword requires one to be much closer than a greataxe.

Humperdink
08-15-2007, 04:03 PM
Timely post, Sojourner. Along with the associated weapon DPS thread by oogly54. Assuming we do not get a response from the developers on this topic, perhaps we should establish a testing methodology first? To ensure we are all measuring the same way before reporting the results. Thanks. :-)

Vua
08-15-2007, 05:04 PM
Go in the game and swing a great axe and then switch to a great sword. The difference is so obvious you don't even need to keep track of the swings. I would suggest grabbing a stop watch and see how long 100 swings takes with each weapon? Maybe go for 200 and the difference should be more obvious. I don't think a dev is truly necessary for this since we can test it ourselves.

Shade
08-15-2007, 11:29 PM
Yea we don't need to waste dev time on something that many exp players have known for ages. I've known how it works since beta.


2Hnaded Slowest to fastest:
Quaterstaff (special anim totally different then the others)
Falchion
Greatclub
Greatsword
Maul
Greataxe

1 Handed weapons I don't use very much so not 100% sure but this is fairly accurate. Tho overall the difference is much smaller then in 2handers.

Slowest t fastest:
Battleaxe (slow as hell for some reason)
Dwarven Axe
Club/Morningstar/Mace (same anim)
Longsword/Scimitar/Kophesh (same anim)
Dagger/Rapier/Sickle/Kama (same anim, definetely fastest)

Ranged
Great Xbow/Xbow
Longbow/Shortbow
Light/Heavy Repeater

Thrown weps all share the same slow animation.

Krell
08-16-2007, 03:13 AM
Back when melee attack speed was nerfed (I mean adjusted) a dev confirmed there were different attack speeds per weapon. I asked for a posting of the specific numbers but didn't see it. I'd imagine it is similar to what is listed in the Player Handbook.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-16-2007, 06:42 AM
Back when melee attack speed was nerfed (I mean adjusted) a dev confirmed there were different attack speeds per weapon. I asked for a posting of the specific numbers but didn't see it. I'd imagine it is similar to what is listed in the Player Handbook.

But its not. There should be no difference between the attack speeds of any of the non ranged melee weapons. This is a definate case of Turbine breaking th D&D rules for no good reason.

llevenbaxx
08-16-2007, 07:33 AM
But its not. There should be no difference between the attack speeds of any of the non ranged melee weapons. This is a definate case of Turbine breaking th D&D rules for no good reason.

Its one of those changes you just shake your head and try to ignore. The weapons are supposedly balanced with each other(aside from ones they changed like the khopesh:confused: ). I would love to hear a reason why this change was made but one of those answers that will never come likily becasue there isnt one.:(

Spookydodger
08-16-2007, 07:38 AM
Or, if you look at it from another way, it's a case of them going Olde School and bringing back weapon speeds from when your weapon affected your initiative.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-16-2007, 10:10 AM
Or, if you look at it from another way, it's a case of them going Olde School and bringing back weapon speeds from when your weapon affected your initiative.

No, initiative is just the first move or swing in combat, not the entire attack round every time.

In_Like_Flynn
08-16-2007, 11:10 AM
Back when melee attack speed was [adjusted] a dev confirmed there were different attack speeds per weapon.I couldn't find this. Do you have a link?


... This is a definate case of Turbine breaking th D&D rules for no good reason.Assuming that it's true, you mean.

Sojourner
08-16-2007, 12:17 PM
Timely post, Sojourner. Along with the associated weapon DPS thread by oogly54. Assuming we do not get a response from the developers on this topic, perhaps we should establish a testing methodology first? To ensure we are all measuring the same way before reporting the results. Thanks. :-)


I would just like to see people take a couple minutes, and post the following:

Character Level
Character Class
Weapon (+# Prefix Weapon Suffix --- Might as well get full description, just in case)
Item in off-hand (second weapon, shield, etc)
# swings over a 60 second period


I've been slack in doing this with my guys, but should be online sometime this weekend to start putting some numbers in.

Symar-FangofLloth
08-16-2007, 12:31 PM
Probably not the best help, but here's one of my characters.
A level 8 bard (BAB +6, so 3 attacks).
Gwylan's Blade (+1 songblade short sword of roaring)
+4 mithral light shield.
In 60 seconds I had about 97 swings. It was hard to count and watch the clock at the same time, so give that an error of +/- 5.
Did this with no buffs, standing around in House P.

I'll get my paladin later.

Ziggy
08-16-2007, 12:36 PM
I couldn't find this. Do you have a link?


I found this by jason booth(no idea who this is though, seems like a developer for DDO)

http://dndvault.ign.com/faq/index.php?category=16

Good find; Eck's description is wrong though. Basically, we tie attacks to the animations in the game. We do have some leway in terms of how many attacks a given animation performs, but this is mostly to do with animations which could look like multiple blows or not. You won't see the sword pass through someone once and attack six times, for instance. A normal attack only hits the person you have targeted, but in some cases a staff (for instance) might pass around the character before attacking. This is a case where we have some leeway in how things work. We can treat that motion as not being an attack, being something we call a glancing blow, or being a full attack.

A while back I gave eck a chart of how many attack hooks I was using per animation, with both the maximum number of percieved blows/glancing blows we could consider an attack to be, as well as base timings and other information relative to balance. In most cases, there is little room for change, but there is some leeway for him to work with for balance reasons.

Most users think of attack speed as a single number derived by various factors (weapon type, character stats, etc); but in the code, there's actually a lot more parameters to drive. For instance, while the base attack speed has a modifier, so does the delay between attacks; how long is it until I can execute my next attack. Adjusting these times create a different feel, yet have the same net effect expressed as damage over time. With a fast attack modifier, if I increase the delay between attacks (usually between 0 and 0.2 seconds), the moves feel more decisive. If I decrease it, the moves get more flow. This creates a different axis of 'speed feel' than just speeding up or slowing down the raw animations; and we can apply the modifiers how ever we like. For instance, it might make sense for an axe to always have a delay between attacks thats high to give the object more weight; thus we would adjust the overall speed of the animations more. With a sword, however, it might be the opposite; where the users overall speed is not effected as much, but thier sense of flow is increased.

Anyway, I'm delving into a bit of a low level design/animation issue which would probrably not be directly noticed at your level (just felt). Suffice it to say that attack speed can be modified by many factors in the game, including stats, weapons, spells, etc. Howver, you won't ever see a 600% increase in attack rate because it would simply look silly, or cause the lower levels to be frustratingly slow.

Uhh... no.. thats not how it works, thats just community conjecture being past around as truth. Some attacks do strike more than once per click, but thats usually in two weapon fighting. Generally speaking, it's one click per attack.

Attacks usually take between 0.4 and 1.2 seconds in DDO, depending on the particular attack, weapon style, character stats, etc.. At 6 seconds an attack, I'd fall asleep at my keyboard.. DDO is not that type of game..


Take it for what its worth.

Raithe
08-16-2007, 12:48 PM
Ummm... if any of you play a ranger you know that the animation does not change at all between a BAB 14 greater two-weapon fighting (7 attacks) and a BAB 10 improved two-weapon fighting (6 attacks).

The animation is completely immaterial. The only thing that matters is the number of attacks in the combat log within a given amount of time. Differences in latency, computer performance, and target behavior can make comparisons quite difficult, however.

Desteria
08-17-2007, 01:48 PM
Ummm... if any of you play a ranger you know that the animation does not change at all between a BAB 14 greater two-weapon fighting (7 attacks) and a BAB 10 improved two-weapon fighting (6 attacks).

The animation is completely immaterial. The only thing that matters is the number of attacks in the combat log within a given amount of time. Differences in latency, computer performance, and target behavior can make comparisons quite difficult, however.


This is what I've beign looking for EVERY one know the Animations are at very dirffent speeds that is blentently obvious, (though i question the one posters quaterstaff beign a slow one, I'm sure my dream spitter looks way faster then my SoS), the reall question that I'd love to see a derv coment on is does teh animation matter or is the full attack set the same for all weapons, as it shoudl be per pnp rules, and just teh animatiosn varie a bit, right now I'm pritty happy with the quoted poster as that purty much tels me the animation is just that an animation, witch woudl make sense since lots of times damage number appear well out of sink with animated swings.

Sojourner
08-17-2007, 07:37 PM
Brought out my old founding barb to run a couple test with him:

Level 14 (13-Barb / 1-Fighter) Elf.

+1 Icy Burst Great Axe of Destruction - 92 attacks / minute
+3 Icy Burst Great Sword of Pure Good - 86 attacks / minute
+3 Holy Maul of Deception - 92 attacks / minute
+3 Holy Cold Iron Falchion of Pure Good - 86 attacks / minute

Mucbkane - 96 attacks / minute
Muckbane & +4 Heavy Steel Shield - 96 attacks / minute

Looks like in general for 2-handers, Swords (Great & Falchion) are about 6.5% slower than Axes/Mauls. Barely noticeable, but a definite amount that can be added to the DPS calculations.

I'll probably play around with a couple more people and weapons later.

tihocan
08-20-2007, 10:18 AM
The animation is completely immaterial. The only thing that matters is the number of attacks in the combat log within a given amount of time. Differences in latency, computer performance, and target behavior can make comparisons quite difficult, however.
Actually, the animation is not immaterial at all. Each animation is tied to a specific number of attacks, that depends on your fighting style, movement and feats.

Shade
08-20-2007, 10:32 AM
The animation is completely immaterial. The only thing that matters is the number of attacks in the combat log within a given amount of time. Differences in latency, computer performance, and target behavior can make comparisons quite difficult, however.

TWF is the ONLY expection to the 1 hit per swing rule. And while attack speed is capped at 10BAB, it doesn't mean combat log has any special bearing on speed. All it means is your new attack from GTWF is not shown as a animation, but instead melted into your main attack.

Latentcy and performance and click speed used to hold some impact on attack speed in beta, but it was fixed back then.. Now the game reads mouse clicks in a linked sequence with enough of a delay so that enough the slowest computers and keep there characters attacking at full speed.

It's obvious turbine just made the animation then linked them together into there BAB/Attack progression system and attempted to keep them as equal as possible. Now it didn't work out 100% perfect and some ended up faster then others, but thats a limitation of there animations, not a purpose change to the PnP rules.

Sojourner
08-25-2007, 07:56 PM
Brought out my old founding barb to run a couple test with him:

Level 14 (13-Barb / 1-Fighter) Elf.

+1 Icy Burst Great Axe of Destruction - 92 attacks / minute
+3 Icy Burst Great Sword of Pure Good - 86 attacks / minute
+3 Holy Maul of Deception - 92 attacks / minute
+3 Holy Cold Iron Falchion of Pure Good - 86 attacks / minute

Mucbkane - 96 attacks / minute
Muckbane & +4 Heavy Steel Shield - 96 attacks / minute




Bought/Looted some other weapon types to play with. On same Barb --

+5 Frost Quarterstaff of Maiming - 94 attacks / minute
+4 Light Hammer - 96 attacks / minute
+2 Greatclub - 86 attacks / minute
+2 Bastardsword - 96 attacks / minute
+2 Adamantine Handaxe - 96 attacks / minute
+2 Dwarven Axe - 96 attacks / minute
+2 Kopesh - 96 attacks / minute

I'm pretty sure all the 1-Handed weapons are going to rate 96/min because they all use identical animations, haven't seen any variation so far. But, may play around with more some other time.

Was surprised that quarterstaff was the fastest 2-Handed weapon. Animation looks clunky and slow, but when you clock it (did 1-minute runs, 5 times, 2 different staffs, same results) it comes out almost as fast as the 1-Handed weapons.


SO FAR:

1-Handed Weapons - 96 / min
Quarterstaffs - 94 / min
G.Axe / Maul - 92 / min
G.Sword / Falchion - 86 / min

Raithe
08-25-2007, 08:16 PM
Alarming results. The difference between great axes and one-handers can be excused. The slow rate of attack with greatswords and falchions needs fixed.

No ifs, ands, or buts.

Scrion
08-26-2007, 06:19 AM
My results, oddly enough I got almost identical results from a 14 bab and an 8 bab, even though the 8 has only the 3 swing chain.

Id say this is accurate for me to within 1-2 swings per minute:

Falchion and Great Sword = 86 swings per minute
Great Axe, Maul, Quarterstaff = 96 SPM
All* 1 handed weapons with a shield in off hand = 100 SPM


* I tested Dwarven Axe, Battle Axe, Club, War Hammer, Khopesh, and Longsword.

The difference betwwen a Falchion/Great Sword and the Great Axe is so big it truly does make a normally worse GA dps higher than the GS.

Ironik
08-26-2007, 09:38 AM
Maybe they didn't like the fact that the mauls average damage is so close to the falchion, knowing full well everyone would prefer the extra crits.

But this *does* mean that my mauls dish out superior DPS then the falchion. I'm more then happy to accept that. :)

Ironik
08-26-2007, 09:44 AM
EDIT: So, it seems the greataxe is the most superior weapon ever? Considering DPS, at least? It tops all other weapons by a significant margin.

Raithe
08-26-2007, 05:50 PM
I ran some tests of my own to confirm that the attacks being counted were from the combat log, and not just simply the rounds of animations. I came up with similar numbers for a rapier and a greatsword as has been listed (84/93 were my rough extrapolations).

This is quite frankly game breaking.

Knowing what I would find, I also ran an extrapolation for greater two-weapon fighting. As I suspected, it too does not meet the D&D standards. I came up with a rough extrapolation of 144 attacks per minute, while 96 * 1.75 = 168 (even 86 * 1.75 = 150).

So GTWF is less than 150% the DPS of sword and board, especially when you take into account the to-hit penalty.

Ironik
08-26-2007, 06:07 PM
Really I couldn't care any less. I picked my weapons based on how I liked them, not specifically for thier stats. Then, later, I was forced to defend my choice and it turns out I picked weapons that do just as well or better in some cases. But whatever.

Sojourner
08-26-2007, 06:10 PM
So GTWF is less than 150% the DPS of sword and board, especially when you take into account the to-hit penalty.

I do remember some time ago there was a huge thread about how TWF were getting screwed because they weren't getting the 1.5x attacks per round that they were supposed to be getting.

But, I appear to have failed my search roll, because I can't find it (more likely - too old and aged off the forums)

Mad_Bombardier
08-27-2007, 10:19 AM
I do remember some time ago there was a huge thread about how TWF were getting screwed because they weren't getting the 1.5x attacks per round that they were supposed to be getting.

But, I appear to have failed my search roll, because I can't find it (more likely - too old and aged off the forums)No, they were lost in the "Great Purge." :(

Indeed, at level 11+ TWF gets their full 1.75x attacks (4 mainhand, 3 offhand). But the TWF animation is longer and the net result is only ~1.5x attack speed.