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View Full Version : New Raiding System, Punishment or Payback?



RATRACE931
08-06-2007, 02:46 PM
I've read all i can find on the new raiding system, i for one have very little incentive to continue raiding. I feel we are being punished for having discovered the means to 1-4 man these raids. I mean how DARE people like myself who dont have 34 guildies to call upon when raiding time to discover the means to duo the queen raid? Or the titan, or 3 man the dragon? Even to solo the reaver. Or is it our fault that turbine created raids that once you discover the 'trick' to beating them you need only a few people? Take for instance the Reaver raid, you have to stand there until he lights all the orbs, get fly, and stay in the air (where he cant harm you much) and them go pull a lever? Wow... who would have thought this had solo'able potential? Or perhaps the titan where all you need is to do is have 2 people, 1 on the switch and another with aggro to drop the pillars... wow thats hard. Dragon ... i have no complaints i still enjoy it but as we level up its becoming easier to output more damage and thus kill her, my sorc can potentially do 1,800 a hit to Veleh. but the pre-raid to it you need at least 4 people at one time or another. Now the queen raid... a caster can solo it with firewall. Perhaps the problem is not with us. Now i dont want to sit here and point out things people already know without offering a solution of my own. Perhaps instead of changing the raid looting system that has kept people discovering new and easier was to run these quest, we should keep it the same and perhaps change the actually RAID system. Perhaps in a raid dungeon you can not enter without 6-12 people in the party? I admit this will make raiding hard for people like myself but will solve what i see as the main issue the DM's are having. Perhaps you dont even need that large of a change, changing 5 quests are alot of work you know, why not just change it so your party cannot be converted to a raid group untill you have the full 6 people in the party then you can invite more (once it is changed to a raid group if the 6th member leaves it will be auto-converted back to normal party of course) Perhaps we should do that instead of paying a half dozen game designers hundreds of dollars to change and entire looting system for just 5 out of... what hundreds of quest? seems like to much trouble to me. Let me hear your opinions.

Knightrose
08-06-2007, 03:02 PM
Give me a break.

The sky is not falling people. Only varied loot.

Ziggy
08-06-2007, 03:23 PM
The answer is yes.:cool:

Taur
08-06-2007, 03:34 PM
it's neither... most folks are indifferent. yay for the vocal minority. and before you say look at so and so's thread, there's a poll; we all know that less than 1/3 of the player base actually uses this forum.

Tanka
08-07-2007, 12:08 AM
we all know that less than 1/3 of the player base actually uses this forum.
That's being entirely too generous, Taur.

pastor_dex
08-07-2007, 12:40 AM
Going by the number of folk that didn't know how to change names today or what would happen to toons after the merge, I am not confident that more than 10% read this forum.

Draclaud
08-07-2007, 10:46 AM
I think it's an attempt to strong arm our playing style. They are thinking that by taking away the encentive to short man raids, we'll invite more PUGGYS, and make everyone happy cumbaya ect. In practice though, I'll just stop running raids that require reflagging. Too much hassle for so little reward. Something Turbine needs to realize is people do things that gives them the best return for their money. If that change goes through....It'll be a better use of time to run POP then a raid...

RATRACE931
08-07-2007, 11:08 AM
I think it's an attempt to strong arm our playing style. They are thinking that by taking away the encentive to short man raids, we'll invite more PUGGYS, and make everyone happy cumbaya ect. In practice though, I'll just stop running raids that require reflagging. Too much hassle for so little reward. Something Turbine needs to realize is people do things that gives them the best return for their money. If that change goes through....It'll be a better use of time to run POP then a raid...

I agree %100, i PUG about %40 of the time anyways, i PUG to do almost anything except things like raids where i want to know the people im with are top notch.

Strakeln
08-07-2007, 11:23 AM
Now the queen raid... a caster can solo it with firewall. Not true. For the last 20% she has a mantle that makes her invulnerable to spells level 4 and under.

Cone of cold works great at that point :D

RATRACE931
08-07-2007, 02:45 PM
Cone of cold works great at that point :D

Yes well you got the point im sure every1 else did aswell, by the way why does only she and Rayum have it? wouldnt giving all the uber bosses said resistance to spells solve their problems aswell? Just saying turbine sems to find the most complicated and confussing bassackwards methods to solve simple problems.

Aspenor
08-07-2007, 02:51 PM
Yes well you got the point im sure every1 else did aswell, by the way why does only she and Rayum have it? wouldnt giving all the uber bosses said resistance to spells solve their problems aswell? Just saying turbine sems to find the most complicated and confussing bassackwards methods to solve simple problems.

Raiyum and Lailat have the mantle because each is an extremely high level caster, utilizing spells that remain out of reach of the player base.

flowmaster
08-07-2007, 04:53 PM
Paragraphs are your friends.

lenric
08-07-2007, 08:45 PM
I've read all i can find on the new raiding system, i for one have very little incentive to continue raiding. I feel we are being punished for having discovered the means to 1-4 man these raids. I mean how DARE people like myself who dont have 34 guildies to call upon when raiding time to discover the means to duo the queen raid? Or the titan, or 3 man the dragon? Even to solo the reaver. Or is it our fault that turbine created raids that once you discover the 'trick' to beating them you need only a few people? Take for instance the Reaver raid, you have to stand there until he lights all the orbs, get fly, and stay in the air (where he cant harm you much) and them go pull a lever? Wow... who would have thought this had solo'able potential? Or perhaps the titan where all you need is to do is have 2 people, 1 on the switch and another with aggro to drop the pillars... wow thats hard. Dragon ... i have no complaints i still enjoy it but as we level up its becoming easier to output more damage and thus kill her, my sorc can potentially do 1,800 a hit to Veleh. but the pre-raid to it you need at least 4 people at one time or another. Now the queen raid... a caster can solo it with firewall. Perhaps the problem is not with us. Now i dont want to sit here and point out things people already know without offering a solution of my own. Perhaps instead of changing the raid looting system that has kept people discovering new and easier was to run these quest, we should keep it the same and perhaps change the actually RAID system. Perhaps in a raid dungeon you can not enter without 6-12 people in the party? I admit this will make raiding hard for people like myself but will solve what i see as the main issue the DM's are having. Perhaps you dont even need that large of a change, changing 5 quests are alot of work you know, why not just change it so your party cannot be converted to a raid group untill you have the full 6 people in the party then you can invite more (once it is changed to a raid group if the 6th member leaves it will be auto-converted back to normal party of course) Perhaps we should do that instead of paying a half dozen game designers hundreds of dollars to change and entire looting system for just 5 out of... what hundreds of quest? seems like to much trouble to me. Let me hear your opinions.

I think its actually a great thing for people like me who have ran a dozen raids and never recieved a piece of raid loot b/c i didn't win the roll or "wasn't the right class." Now I have the same chance of getting raid loot as everyone else despite my class. No more getting told I can't roll for a +2 str tome cause i'm a cleric. I deserve the same chance as anyone else for getting raid loot and I for one am grateful of the new changes.

Draclaud
08-08-2007, 10:44 AM
I think its actually a great thing for people like me who have ran a dozen raids and never recieved a piece of raid loot b/c i didn't win the roll or "wasn't the right class." Now I have the same chance of getting raid loot as everyone else despite my class. No more getting told I can't roll for a +2 str tome cause i'm a cleric. I deserve the same chance as anyone else for getting raid loot and I for one am grateful of the new changes.

You're still not going to get the stuff. No one will be raiding, and if by chance you get invited to a raid, and you eat a +2 str tome instead of giving it to the fighter GOOD LUCK getting invited by that guild again. This way you have ZERO chance of getting them instead of some because NO ONE WILL RAID. Furthermore you can't really whine about not winning the roll, as you have a much better chance than 1 in 6 to beat some one on a roll. I doubt more than 6 people are rolling on that piece of loot.

RATRACE931
08-08-2007, 10:54 AM
I for one let any1 roll on any Tome, every class can benifit from a +2 tome i dont care what anyone says, BUT a barbarien NEEDS the +2 STR tome far more than a Cleric, i run need before greed. I also agree that we will see a definite lack in raids , i know i've lost interest. The only raids ill do now are large runs with only people i know VERY well in the party. Thus... i am sure that many other people feel the same and so there will be a drop in Pug raids :D meaning again with this new raid loot system they have yet again failed to accomplish any goal to which they set out to accomplish!

PS: you cant help us by bending us over :D

ahpook
08-08-2007, 10:55 AM
You're still not going to get the stuff. No one will be raiding, and if by chance you get invited to a raid, and you eat a +2 str tome instead of giving it to the fighter GOOD LUCK getting invited by that guild again. This way you have ZERO chance of getting them instead of some because NO ONE WILL RAID. Furthermore you can't really whine about not winning the roll, as you have a much better chance than 1 in 6 to beat some one on a roll. I doubt more than 6 people are rolling on that piece of loot.

Once again, You are projecting current behavior and assuming that there will be no adjustments. The current method of loot disbursement was due to people trying to accommodate the loot distribution mechanism. The very mechanism that was completely panned and hated when first announced. Everyone wanted something more like was just announced (probably because people didn't anticipate duo'ing raids at the time).

So people adjusted to something they hated. They will do so again and your assumptions of future behavior based entirely on how people deal with the current model is not entirely valid.

Draclaud
08-08-2007, 11:10 AM
Once again, You are projecting current behavior and assuming that there will be no adjustments. The current method of loot disbursement was due to people trying to accommodate the loot distribution mechanism. The very mechanism that was completely panned and hated when first announced. Everyone wanted something more like was just announced (probably because people didn't anticipate duo'ing raids at the time).

So people adjusted to something they hated. They will do so again and your assumptions of future behavior based entirely on how people deal with the current model is not entirely valid.


This is awesome. Thanks for posting this.

OK, The fix is entended to encourage us to bring along more folks we do not know and who haven't proven themselves, correct? That being the case, and this being a "team" game why would I as a Raid leader bring someone in who:

A)I have no control over weather or not they act like a team player. IE Need over Greed as explained before.

B)Would not agree beforehand to give up the item to he who needed it most.

The entended purpose of this change is to stop us from short manning raids. I get that. That is not going to make me bring more folks in. This is why.

A)If I get a 1/6 chance of raid loot and so does everyone in my guild I bring along...What is the benefit to our guild to bring along a PUGGY who is gonna take that Sword of Shadows on his Cleric?

-Answer? NONE NADA ZIP ZILCH. In fact it will just force us to add another to our black list.

B)With no added benefit to the actual skilled raiders, there is no reason to add non-guild players.

In conclusion, if we do not get an agreement ahead of time from the puggy he will not be invited. This change doesn't help him, It hurts him. Where as before I might take along an extra Wizard or Cleric in my dragon raids, why bother now? I'd take em before because they wouldn't be rolling on the same stuff as my guildmates and I. But now...I'd just rather not raid.

ahpook
08-08-2007, 11:40 AM
This is awesome. Thanks for posting this.

OK, The fix is entended to encourage us to bring along more folks we do not know and who haven't proven themselves, correct? That being the case, and this being a "team" game why would I as a Raid leader bring someone in who:

I think the fix is intended to drop the amount of raid loot being given out. That's it. The idea of stopping short manning is a forum invented reason because the thought of getting less that 2 pieces of raid loot is very painful to some people. Don't bring more people if you don't want. Just run the raid again for another shot at loot. Same as you do in PoP for Kardin's Eye.



A)I have no control over weather or not they act like a team player. IE Need over Greed as explained before.

Well, my point was that "Need over Greed" was a method that developed to try to accommodate the old raid loot mechanism. It may or may not remain. "Need Over Greed" doesn't apply to things like Bloodstone and Kardin's Eye but then again they don't bind and can be attempted more frequently than every 3 days.

Braddock_Tharmwell
08-08-2007, 01:05 PM
LOL! Really though. So if the Dev create a Loot system different than what everyone has become a customed to it's suddenly becomes them "Strong Arming" someones playstyle" but somehow, under the upcoming new incoming system it will be perfectly valid, apparently, for the RAID Leaders to "Strong Arm" any Pugger in the group into coughing up their Loot, or else?

Holy Smokes. That has to be some of the most butchered logic I have seen on here for quite some time...

Some folks apparently need to seriously look at a re-grip. :eek:

Lorien_the_First_One
08-08-2007, 01:46 PM
A)If I get a 1/6 chance of raid loot and so does everyone in my guild I bring along...What is the benefit to our guild to bring along a PUGGY who is gonna take that Sword of Shadows on his Cleric?

-Answer? NONE NADA ZIP ZILCH. In fact it will just force us to add another to our black list.

B)With no added benefit to the actual skilled raiders, there is no reason to add non-guild players.


Hmm...interesting that you would assume a SoS is useless on a Cleric. I wouldn't keep it on mind, but a fighting cleric could probably put it to good use. I think that's one of the problems with the old system, people telling other people what would be best based on how they think a particular class should be played.

Also telling is that you assume that any non guildy you add would not be a skilled player... more elitism. I very much enjoyed a pug I ran last night on Von5/6 (elite 5, norm 6). It started as an 8 man but they left it open for more to join, a great attitude, and it ended up filling to 12. I think we had 3 or 4 from the guild that started it, and I think 5 guilds represented and at least 1 unguilded person. Smooth run, no real mistakes, dragon went down fast and easy. Great pug.

2 caster items when I was running my fighter meant I didn't even get to roll though :(

I can't wait for the new system. In any other chest if someone pulls a named you cheer for them. In the current chest it somehow just sucks seeing two things that just don't work for you and you end up thinking "wow I wished I brought a ClassX so that I could roll. I only brought a Y cause that's what the group/guild wanted and I really did want to run X :( "

Yes they need to look at the drop rate and yes they need to look at the binding rules to make trades easier but making raid chests like other chests is a step in the right direction.

Draclaud
08-08-2007, 02:09 PM
Hmm...interesting that you would assume a SoS is useless on a Cleric. I wouldn't keep it on mind, but a fighting cleric could probably put it to good use. I think that's one of the problems with the old system, people telling other people what would be best based on how they think a particular class should be played.

Also telling is that you assume that any non guildy you add would not be a skilled player... more elitism. I very much enjoyed a pug I ran last night on Von5/6 (elite 5, norm 6). It started as an 8 man but they left it open for more to join, a great attitude, and it ended up filling to 12. I think we had 3 or 4 from the guild that started it, and I think 5 guilds represented and at least 1 unguilded person. Smooth run, no real mistakes, dragon went down fast and easy. Great pug.

2 caster items when I was running my fighter meant I didn't even get to roll though :(

I can't wait for the new system. In any other chest if someone pulls a named you cheer for them. In the current chest it somehow just sucks seeing two things that just don't work for you and you end up thinking "wow I wished I brought a ClassX so that I could roll. I only brought a Y cause that's what the group/guild wanted and I really did want to run X :( "

Yes they need to look at the drop rate and yes they need to look at the binding rules to make trades easier but making raid chests like other chests is a step in the right direction.

That said cleric is a battle cleric...and don't get me started on that...

Yvonne_Blacksword
08-08-2007, 02:11 PM
I always thought that the fact that everyone can see what loot you get in any given chest...if they wait around till everyone pulls...was a bad idea.

In NORMAL, non raid chests, I have been hounded and badgered by people greedy enough to scream at me to give them things I pulled that I could use.
Current character or not.
Was once yelled at for not giving a cleric a cure light wounds wand because I pulled the 1/2 fried thing and someone noticed it...I had given the cleric plat and 3 wands before entering the quest and he had yet to use any of it...I was doing most of the healing with my own supplies. 10k plat, 3 cure serious wands paid and I got kicked from the group for not giving up a 27 charge cure light wand... Oh..The cleric also stated I was on my own for healing...so I stopped healing everyone else and concentrated on myself. It was less expensive in the long run. I was also the only one who donated...:rolleyes:
Fair?
Is it fair to be expected to give up the one piece of raid loot they may ever pull?

Making everyone in a raid get an EQUAL, RANDOM CHANCE at getting raid loot is not fair?

Bringing PUG members into your GUILD RAID and expecting them to give up rightfully awarded items with no compensation...is just rude.

Treating them badly for accepting their rightfully awarded loot is...BS?

If they agree to it they are nicer...well...

Your guildies are your guildies...If you give them something they will respond in kind if they get the chance...or one of you is in the wrong guild.

If it is a PUG member...Are you going to invite them on the raid again until they pull something they can use?

Are you going to trade them something they can use or sell? Equal value (AH-TRADE)?

Some people expect too much kindness from strangers.

If I am a PUG member in a guild raid it is simply to gather information and strategy...I have never been rewarded with a raid item when with someone elses guild...

Coincidence?

I think not.

Draclaud
08-08-2007, 02:19 PM
LOL! Really though. So if the Dev create a Loot system different than what everyone has become a customed to it's suddenly becomes them "Strong Arming" someones playstyle" but somehow, under the upcoming new incoming system it will be perfectly valid, apparently, for the RAID Leaders to "Strong Arm" any Pugger in the group into coughing up their Loot, or else?

Holy Smokes. That has to be some of the most butchered logic I have seen on here for quite some time...

Some folks apparently need to seriously look at a re-grip. :eek:

Sorry we don't live in a perfect world. It's human nature and perfectly accetable to give yourself the best odds of succeeding. Withinin the framework of the system that shortman raid was that way. Use a little bit of common sense here shall we?

a) Facing decreased membership servers merge.

b) Forum posters rail against all the "uber" players and how they don't have a chance to compete because of the raid loot system.

c) Company in a effort to make said people happy, and increase number of raiders inacts raiding policy.

e) End result is class warfare between the haves and have nots, with the system being "redesigned" to level the playing field.

THAT my friend is being strong armed...

Draclaud
08-08-2007, 02:25 PM
I always thought that the fact that everyone can see what loot you get in any given chest...if they wait around till everyone pulls...was a bad idea.

In NORMAL, non raid chests, I have been hounded and badgered by people greedy enough to scream at me to give them things I pulled that I could use.
Current character or not.
Was once yelled at for not giving a cleric a cure light wounds wand because I pulled the 1/2 fried thing and someone noticed it...I had given the cleric plat and 3 wands before entering the quest and he had yet to use any of it...I was doing most of the healing with my own supplies. 10k plat, 3 cure serious wands paid and I got kicked from the group for not giving up a 27 charge cure light wand... Oh..The cleric also stated I was on my own for healing...so I stopped healing everyone else and concentrated on myself. It was less expensive in the long run. I was also the only one who donated...:rolleyes:
Fair?
Is it fair to be expected to give up the one piece of raid loot they may ever pull?

Making everyone in a raid get an EQUAL, RANDOM CHANCE at getting raid loot is not fair?

Bringing PUG members into your GUILD RAID and expecting them to give up rightfully awarded items with no compensation...is just rude.

Treating them badly for accepting their rightfully awarded loot is...BS?

If they agree to it they are nicer...well...

Your guildies are your guildies...If you give them something they will respond in kind if they get the chance...or one of you is in the wrong guild.

If it is a PUG member...Are you going to invite them on the raid again until they pull something they can use?

Are you going to trade them something they can use or sell? Equal value (AH-TRADE)?

Some people expect too much kindness from strangers.

If I am a PUG member in a guild raid it is simply to gather information and strategy...I have never been rewarded with a raid item when with someone elses guild...

Coincidence?


I think not.

It's just making a bad system even worse. If there was at least ONE guarenteed raid item with a glyph and everyone else had a 1/6 chance to pull one, I might sing a different tune.

Mercules
08-08-2007, 02:29 PM
b) Forum posters rail against all the "uber" players and how they don't have a chance to compete because of the raid loot system.


Gotta jump on this comment. I was one of the "Forum posters rail against all the..." posters. Funny how my friends and I just flagged our characters again to 4-man the dragon. Sorry, we can compete just fine and we can still believe there is too much treasure handed out too quickly and that characters are too powerful still because of gear. They stepped in the right direction with the Enhancement change, they just need to not stop walking towards a more balanced game.

I don't mean balanced in the have/have-not aspect, but balanced in that the range of numbers for most characters falls within a 20 digit range so that the D20 roll makes a difference. So that AC make a difference at the top end again and Range combat can compete with melee.

Mercules
08-08-2007, 02:38 PM
It's just making a bad system even worse. If there was at least ONE guarenteed raid item with a glyph and everyone else had a 1/6 chance to pull one, I might sing a different tune.

Not a bad suggestion but I would also add, in keeping with the idea of a "raid" that the glyph item be more like this.
1 player in raid 18%
2 players in raid 36%
3 players in raid 54%
4 players in raid 72%
5 players in raid 90%
6 players in raid 100%

Odds for a second item should be the same. Now also add in a -small- random chance of a raid item dropping for any given player personally and you have a system that should appease most players who raid. A 6 man team is guaranteed a raid item with the possibility for more. The solo person has a couple chances at rolling well. The PuGger with a Guild group has a chance of getting their own personal item they can choose what to do with.

Draclaud
08-08-2007, 02:52 PM
Gotta jump on this comment. I was one of the "Forum posters rail against all the..." posters. Funny how my friends and I just flagged our characters again to 4-man the dragon. Sorry, we can compete just fine and we can still believe there is too much treasure handed out too quickly and that characters are too powerful still because of gear. They stepped in the right direction with the Enhancement change, they just need to not stop walking towards a more balanced game.

I don't mean balanced in the have/have-not aspect, but balanced in that the range of numbers for most characters falls within a 20 digit range so that the D20 roll makes a difference. So that AC make a difference at the top end again and Range combat can compete with melee.

How effective other people's characters are? How does that effect you? If you think there is too much treasure going out then feel free to have your level 14 run around with masterwork stuff. Be my guest. The fact that you just said yourself that you 4 man the dragon as well, doesn't mean anything other than your being hypocritical. You decry the fairness of the system while taking full advantage of it...

Gimpster
08-08-2007, 02:55 PM
Making everyone in a raid get an EQUAL, RANDOM CHANCE at getting raid loot is not fair?
Correct, that is not fair. Simply having been in the party does not mean you were contributing equally towards the success of the mission. In fact, you might not have contributed at all.

Tanka
08-08-2007, 03:00 PM
Which comes part and parcel with the current raid loot system as well.

In all of the raids, there are certain times when a player will, literally, do nothing and add nothing to the quest. And then get to roll on raid loot.

You know this, I know this, pretty much all of us know this.

Does it make either raid loot system fair, unfair, balanced, whatever?

Only as much as we want it to and work with it. And even then...

The_Hoff
08-08-2007, 03:03 PM
Someone said they thought this would encourage more pug invites and mixed raids. I think quite the opposite will happen, as most of the people I know will run raids only with people they trust and NEVER pug it. Horrid change.

Mercules
08-08-2007, 03:04 PM
Correct, that is not fair. Simply having been in the party does not mean you were contributing equally towards the success of the mission. In fact, you might not have contributed at all.

And yet you still get the same amount of XP... Hmmmmmmmm.

narizue
08-08-2007, 03:13 PM
Someone said they thought this would encourage more pug invites and mixed raids. I think quite the opposite will happen, as most of the people I know will run raids only with people they trust and NEVER pug it. Horrid change.

Totally agree.

I will invite guildies and friends, and allied guilds. As to the rest...

Mercules
08-08-2007, 03:27 PM
How effective other people's characters are? How does that effect you? If you think there is too much treasure going out then feel free to have your level 14 run around with masterwork stuff. Be my guest. The fact that you just said yourself that you 4 man the dragon as well, doesn't mean anything other than your being hypocritical. You decry the fairness of the system while taking full advantage of it...

Example:

Barbarian with tons of Raid gear including the SOS hops into a group with an equal level character who has never been on a raid. Barbarian proceeds to destroy everything they run up against. The other character, say a Fighter, wonders why he even bothered to come along if the Barbarian can do it with only the help of a few buffs and a Cleric to cast Heal every so often. That impacts directly on other player's fun.

Yes, there is too much treasure, we are too powerful. Any GM who understands the game understands that the further from the D20 range you get, the harder it is to create "content" for your players that allows everyone to have fun. When the difference in Attack Bonus between two characters is over 20 Character 1 will always hit mob A and character 2 will rarely hit mob A. 1 will sometimes hit mob B and 2 will never hit mob B. It's hard to create a mob that challenges one character without under/over-whelming the other.

The solution is not for me to run around in MW gear. Just imagine the PuG when they find out I was using a MW longsword instead of a paralyzer or vorpal at level 14. Guess who just made the "no-invite" list. :) The solution WOULD HAVE been for Turbine to have foresight and plan out weapons over 20 levels, not 10. The Vorpals really should not have been dropping until about level 20. Raid loot should not be worthless to most characters or DEFINING like the SoS, Kundark Diving Suit, and such.

I'm not decrying the fairness of the system while taking advantage of it. That would be my taxes where I believe everyone should be paying a flat rate. As it is I end up adjusting by income just like everyone else. The IRS will not allow me to do it any other way and I don't really want to pay in more than anyone else is all other things being equal.

The raid loot is... questionable. I understand why they are changing it as it is too easy to get it for some people. At the same time, if I don't have it then PuGs and my friends' guild members raise an eyebrow when they find out my Cleric is still using such an such a Devotion item instead of whatever. The new content also seems to be more and more designed around "expected loot curve" than before. Look at Proof is in the Poison. That quest is designed with the idea that your level 4 group is twinked out by higher level characters and had a lot of money for expendables.

Most of the time I now duo/trio with friends because otherwise there is no reason to do anything more than enter the quest and stand in the entrance while three zergers complete it with their super gear and intimate knowledge of each quest. Does that impact upon my game experience?

Taur
08-08-2007, 03:35 PM
you know.. the ones yelling the loudest are, not in all cases but for the most part, the same ones that yell that this game is too monty haul. this is ridiculous.

Mercules
08-08-2007, 03:44 PM
you know.. the ones yelling the loudest are, not in all cases but for the most part, the same ones that yell that this game is too monty haul. this is ridiculous.

Clarity... "The ones yelling the loudest(for/against) the change are, not in all cases, but for the most part, the same ones that yell that this game is too MontyHaul."

RATRACE931
08-08-2007, 04:34 PM
Sorry, we can compete just fine and we can still believe there is too much treasure handed out too quickly and that characters are too powerful still because of gear. They stepped in the right direction with the Enhancement change, they just need to not stop walking towards a more balanced game..

Sorry I have to comment on this bud, Too much treasure handed out? I admitt in retrospect from PnP our lvl 14's would make Epic characters **** themselfs if they happened to meet us BUT every one in the game has the same oportunity to reach that status. I play mostly on the weekends and still keep up easily with certain 'uber loot/raidloot-mongering' players on my server.

RATRACE931
08-08-2007, 04:40 PM
Example:

Barbarian with tons of Raid gear including the SOS hops into a group with an equal level character who has never been on a raid. Barbarian proceeds to destroy everything they run up against. The other character, say a Fighter, wonders why he even bothered to come along if the Barbarian can do it with only the help of a few buffs and a Cleric to cast Heal every so often. That impacts directly on other player's fun.

Yes, there is too much treasure, we are too powerful. Any GM who understands the game understands that the further from the D20 range you get, the harder it is to create "content" for your players that allows everyone to have fun. When the difference in Attack Bonus between two characters is over 20 Character 1 will always hit mob A and character 2 will rarely hit mob A. 1 will sometimes hit mob B and 2 will never hit mob B. It's hard to create a mob that challenges one character without under/over-whelming the other.

The solution is not for me to run around in MW gear. Just imagine the PuG when they find out I was using a MW longsword instead of a paralyzer or vorpal at level 14. Guess who just made the "no-invite" list. :) The solution WOULD HAVE been for Turbine to have foresight and plan out weapons over 20 levels, not 10. The Vorpals really should not have been dropping until about level 20. Raid loot should not be worthless to most characters or DEFINING like the SoS, Kundark Diving Suit, and such.

I'm not decrying the fairness of the system while taking advantage of it. That would be my taxes where I believe everyone should be paying a flat rate. As it is I end up adjusting by income just like everyone else. The IRS will not allow me to do it any other way and I don't really want to pay in more than anyone else is all other things being equal.

The raid loot is... questionable. I understand why they are changing it as it is too easy to get it for some people. At the same time, if I don't have it then PuGs and my friends' guild members raise an eyebrow when they find out my Cleric is still using such an such a Devotion item instead of whatever. The new content also seems to be more and more designed around "expected loot curve" than before. Look at Proof is in the Poison. That quest is designed with the idea that your level 4 group is twinked out by higher level characters and had a lot of money for expendables.

Most of the time I now duo/trio with friends because otherwise there is no reason to do anything more than enter the quest and stand in the entrance while three zergers complete it with their super gear and intimate knowledge of each quest. Does that impact upon my game experience?

I dont get you, you seem to have a vendetta against people who either A) lucky with loot, (B) are dedicated to the game (C) know how to build good classes or (D) people like me who have been here since the first day of Beta and literally have everything memorized because ITS BEEN A YEAR AND A HALF... if you feel somwhat laking when grouping with me its because well... your are, in a game experence sort of way.

Yvonne_Blacksword
08-08-2007, 04:49 PM
Correct, that is not fair. Simply having been in the party does not mean you were contributing equally towards the success of the mission. In fact, you might not have contributed at all.

And yet you still get the same amount of XP... Hmmmmmmmm.

Or... you may have contributed the most...by being a support character. Resurecting party members, disabling traps, keeping the clerics healed so they could keep an eye on the tanks bent on their own destruction, making helpful suggestions to keep the party alive and together, never gotten a single kill, never gotten noticed at all...

And never recognized by the people who base everything on kill counts and "expected roles" and lose out every time...

It happens.

Who do you think contributes the most?
The flash and bang?

Or the one who makes it possible for the flash and bang to keep going without care?

If you don't want the NON CONTRIBUTERS to get the raid loot...
1.) Make sure you know everyone in your party.
2.) Make sure they can all perform their required duties to your high levels of expectation.
3.) Make sure you tell them you will not allow them to have an off day.
4.) Make sure they know how YOU expect the rewards to be distributed nad agree to it.
or
1-4.) Do it allllllllllll by yourself. If you do, and your die rolls don't stack up to your expectations...You have no one else to blame.

It takes a team to acomplish a task...A team of you, or a team of many.

Mercules
08-08-2007, 05:13 PM
I dont get you, you seem to have a zendetta against people who either A) lucky with loot, (B) are dedicated to the game (C) know how to build good classes or (D) people like me who have been here since the first day of Beta and literally have everything memorized because ITS BEEN A YEAR AND A HALF... if you feel somwhat laking when grouping with me its because well... your are, in a game experence sort of way.

Actually... I don't. I just know for YEARS of game playing/GMing what makes a RPG campaign work. Biggest no-nos for a GM.

1. Don't change the rules without fully understanding what impact it will have on the game.
2. Don't focus on one area. All areas of game play are important, combat, politics, story, and such.
3. Don't hand out too many toys or make the characters too powerful too fast. Trust me, they won't appreciate you for it, they will gain a "What have you done for me lately?" attitude.
4. Don't encourage "Statistics" over "Characters". Rule 2 helps this.
5. Keep all characters within a range that is supported by the randomization system you have in place. In this case the D20. See Rule 3.


I think DDO is fun. I think it is a LOT more fun when you play it as presented, instead of as it has become because of how the population treats it. I don't believe I am alone or else the hardcore guilds and guilds like Bare Bones wouldn't exist.

I think the Devs would have saved themselves a ton of headaches if they would have through ahead and given out power in smaller doses instead of possibly starting sentences with, "Wouldn't it be cool if...." or, "I've always thought (insert class/race/monster) should have this...".

Do you know what type of weapons we were using in a recent D&D campaign I played in? +1 weapon with 1 point of sonic at level 8. +1 Admantine Vicious at level 10. Mithral Breastplate(not magical) at level 8. They suck, right? Not in that campaign, and because the difference between my weapon and that person next to me is +1 he can give the monster an AC that both of us have a decent chance to hit and my +1 while not being a huge difference, is a difference. That is good GMing.

So my comments about having too good of loot come from knowing that tons and tons of loot(compounded with all the other boosts like enhancements) makes the game harder to balance so that everyone has fun. Being too powerful is boring, being too weak is frustrating. Having both possibilities in the same group is bad.

RATRACE931
08-08-2007, 05:18 PM
Or... you may have contributed the most...by being a support character. Resurecting party members, disabling traps, keeping the clerics healed so they could keep an eye on the tanks bent on their own destruction, making helpful suggestions to keep the party alive and together, never gotten a single kill, never gotten noticed at all...

And never recognized by the people who base everything on kill counts and "expected roles" and lose out every time...

It happens.

Who do you think contributes the most?
The flash and bang?

Or the one who makes it possible for the flash and bang to keep going without care?

If you don't want the NON CONTRIBUTERS to get the raid loot...
1.) Make sure you know everyone in your party.
2.) Make sure they can all perform their required duties to your high levels of expectation.
3.) Make sure you tell them you will not allow them to have an off day.
4.) Make sure they know how YOU expect the rewards to be distributed nad agree to it.
or
1-4.) Do it allllllllllll by yourself. If you do, and your die rolls don't stack up to your expectations...You have no one else to blame.

It takes a team to acomplish a task...A team of you, or a team of many.

I dont know what he meant but when i read that quote i envisioned a couple pugs in been in where someone... lets use the wizard i grouped with after the server merge as an example. We ran PoP, he dragged everything inculding the dwarfs you have to TRY and pull up to the entrance, didnt TRY to kill them had buffed himself and just walked in and refused to help the other Pug cleric who happened to get boned first. Thats excusable maybe he didnt notice the dwarfs? whatver. at the end of the quest exceptionally long and hard PoP run he had 75% of his mana left 2 kills and wouldnt buff when asked the other caster had to call out and get mana... he still didnt use his mana. These are the kind of people that I say do not deserve raid loot should you happen to get stuck with them. Ive had a few other choice encounters from all types of characters. Even an appauling cleric that was wearing scale armor, and talking about varies other raid loot items he had, and then once into Gianthold Tor Refused to heal or buff halfway to the dragons because we failed to offer him money for the 300 some odd heal scrolls and 200 rez scrolls he bought... he never asked for the money ahead of time (i give 20k at least to any cleric that asks in advance or when a quest goes wrong and he depleted his stock)

Yvonne_Blacksword
08-08-2007, 05:22 PM
You might be too uber for us.
I suggest you follow the second 1-4's.
That way all the loot is yours.

Mercules
08-08-2007, 05:29 PM
BUT every one in the game has the same oportunity to reach that status.

This is blatantly untrue. If you have a job that requires you to work 20 hours on the weekend(and I know people who do) then you probably don't have the same chance to get the "uber loot" from the +1 loot weekends. If you weren't around for the 48 hour loot fest from the Whisperdoom "bug" then you didn't have the same opportunity. Shall we mention those that took advantage of various "exploits" like the Chill Shard duplication?

If you started a character last week and run Proof Is In the Poison with a PuG filled with twinked out characters all level four but many of them using racially restricted items so they are technically using level 6 gear and you have only what has dropped from level 1-3 quests, you don't really have the same experience in that quest.

I admit, it isn't hard to find gear in this game. That kinda is the issue I am talking about. It is SO easy to find gear you don't have Character1 running around with his favored battle-axe, but 8-9 battle-axes. My Dwarven ROUGE has about 12 Dwarven Axes on his person and another 8 in the bank for if I re-roll him.

In most cases I am not even talking about me. I am thinking about the new player, come to this game, and how their experience is going to be. Try it. Start up on a brand new server you know no one on and try and live off of only what you gather like you did way back when. I have. It is very rough and I think most of us forget about this but we won't get new players this way.

The game could use some re-balancing even if that is nerfing. I will remain an advocate of this.

Dragonhyde
08-08-2007, 05:33 PM
I just feel that if the devs really want to curb the power of the players then they really should have focused more on what is falling out of giant hold chests. These are sometimes as powerful as raid loot and more easily accessable because of not having a timer.

Mercules
08-08-2007, 05:41 PM
I just feel that if the devs really want to curb the power of the players then they really should have focused more on what is falling out of giant hold chests. These are sometimes as powerful as raid loot and more easily accessable because of not having a timer.

If they want to curb the power of the players they should wipe the servers clean. That would tick off WAY too many people though. I will play DDO until it goes away, flaws and all, and hope whoever does the next D&D online game learns from some of these experiences Turbine has had.

HumanJHawkins
08-08-2007, 06:30 PM
<CUT>No more getting told I can't roll for a +2 str tome cause i'm a cleric. I deserve the same chance as anyone else for getting raid loot and I for one am grateful of the new changes.

Dude... Did someone actually do that to you? If I saw someone do that while I was in party, they would land on my blacklist even if I didn't know the guy who got ripped.

I have only been in five or six raid groups, but every time it was up to the players involved to choose whether to opt in or out of a roll. And everyone was always very thoughtful about it.

Inc_Doc
08-11-2007, 09:40 AM
Well I just spent the last hour reading everything I could find out about this new system (still not sure I understand it completely). From what I understand is that the chest will be just like all the other chest in the game, but you will have a smaller chance of some great raid loot falling out. If that’s the only change then I don’t see a problem. As I understand it you can still 2 man or 12 man it. For me this is a non-issue, there are bigger problems that raid loot (like server lag, plat farmers, and well known bugs that never get fixed).

Strakeln
08-11-2007, 11:43 AM
<snip> there are bigger problems that raid loot (like server lag, plat farmers, and well known bugs that never get fixed)./pulls head from sand

What bugs?

:rolleyes:

Cendaer
08-11-2007, 01:07 PM
This is awesome. Thanks for posting this.

OK, The fix is entended to encourage us to bring along more folks we do not know and who haven't proven themselves, correct? That being the case, and this being a "team" game why would I as a Raid leader bring someone in who:

A)I have no control over weather or not they act like a team player. IE Need over Greed as explained before.

B)Would not agree beforehand to give up the item to he who needed it most.

The entended purpose of this change is to stop us from short manning raids. I get that. That is not going to make me bring more folks in. This is why.

A)If I get a 1/6 chance of raid loot and so does everyone in my guild I bring along...What is the benefit to our guild to bring along a PUGGY who is gonna take that Sword of Shadows on his Cleric?

-Answer? NONE NADA ZIP ZILCH. In fact it will just force us to add another to our black list.

B)With no added benefit to the actual skilled raiders, there is no reason to add non-guild players.

In conclusion, if we do not get an agreement ahead of time from the puggy he will not be invited. This change doesn't help him, It hurts him. Where as before I might take along an extra Wizard or Cleric in my dragon raids, why bother now? I'd take em before because they wouldn't be rolling on the same stuff as my guildmates and I. But now...I'd just rather not raid.

First of all, I don't recall any developer actually stating that the change to the raid loot mechanism was intended to increase the number of PURaids.

There is no way you can argue that any one character needs any one item any more than any other. Due to the nature of the game, any character can start picking up levels in any available class the next time they level up. This makes just about any piece of loot usable by just about any character, especially considering the fact that no one is level 20 yet.

Your posts reek of greed, because it appears that you're worried there's no 100% guarantee of the raid leader being in complete control of what's looted from a raid treasure chest. The game is no longer going to afford you that control, and now you'll have to rely on your own leadership abilities to ensure that raid loot is distributed the way you want it to be distributed.

If you want one particular party member to receive that ONE highly sought-after item, then you're going to have to be ready to negotiate (GASP!) with the player who actually pulls said item. Yes, that's right, it's going to require a leader to do more than just lead a couple people to the raid treasure chest at the end of a quest.

If you want to run guild-only raids to increase your chances of being able to control loot distribution, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. If your guild can't field enough characters to successfully complete a raid, that's not a problem with the loot mechanism. The fact that you would restrict certain classes from randomly rolling for an item also reeks of greed, because, as I stated earlier, there are very few items which are absolutely not usuable by any character. Basically, by telling certain characters they are not allowed to roll for certain loots, you are demanding that people play and build their characters the way you think they should be built and played.

Feel free to black-list as many people as you want for whatever reasons you desire. You can make that information public on any web site you or your guild controls, but you won't be able to do it in-game, nor here on the forums. If you and/or your guild are well-respected as raid leaders, then people will seek out that information. If you're not, then you'd be wasting your time.

Despite what you think, the fact that you'd have to inform each and every raid party member of who wants that ONE highly sought-after item, is not going to put them at a disadvantage. If anything, that's going to give them even more power, and it would appear that is what makes you so uncomfortable. You say you would take along those "extra" classes before, because they wouldn't be allowed a chance at the raid loot; and all that indicates is that you consider them disposable.

The new raid loot mechansim is going to put you in the position where you might just have to negotiate with another player in order to ensure that loot gets distributed the way you want it to be distributed. Someone with notable leadership abilities will be able to do that, however, raid leaders who are leaders in name only, might encounter some difficulties.

All that being said, there is still nothing preventing you from running guild-only raids, or raids with only those players whom you trust to do what you tell them.

Draclaud
08-11-2007, 05:23 PM
First of all, I don't recall any developer actually stating that the change to the raid loot mechanism was intended to increase the number of PURaids.

There is no way you can argue that any one character needs any one item any more than any other. Due to the nature of the game, any character can start picking up levels in any available class the next time they level up. This makes just about any piece of loot usable by just about any character, especially considering the fact that no one is level 20 yet.

Your posts reek of greed, because it appears that you're worried there's no 100% guarantee of the raid leader being in complete control of what's looted from a raid treasure chest. The game is no longer going to afford you that control, and now you'll have to rely on your own leadership abilities to ensure that raid loot is distributed the way you want it to be distributed.

If you want one particular party member to receive that ONE highly sought-after item, then you're going to have to be ready to negotiate (GASP!) with the player who actually pulls said item. Yes, that's right, it's going to require a leader to do more than just lead a couple people to the raid treasure chest at the end of a quest.

If you want to run guild-only raids to increase your chances of being able to control loot distribution, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. If your guild can't field enough characters to successfully complete a raid, that's not a problem with the loot mechanism. The fact that you would restrict certain classes from randomly rolling for an item also reeks of greed, because, as I stated earlier, there are very few items which are absolutely not usuable by any character. Basically, by telling certain characters they are not allowed to roll for certain loots, you are demanding that people play and build their characters the way you think they should be built and played.

Feel free to black-list as many people as you want for whatever reasons you desire. You can make that information public on any web site you or your guild controls, but you won't be able to do it in-game, nor here on the forums. If you and/or your guild are well-respected as raid leaders, then people will seek out that information. If you're not, then you'd be wasting your time.

Despite what you think, the fact that you'd have to inform each and every raid party member of who wants that ONE highly sought-after item, is not going to put them at a disadvantage. If anything, that's going to give them even more power, and it would appear that is what makes you so uncomfortable. You say you would take along those "extra" classes before, because they wouldn't be allowed a chance at the raid loot; and all that indicates is that you consider them disposable.

The new raid loot mechansim is going to put you in the position where you might just have to negotiate with another player in order to ensure that loot gets distributed the way you want it to be distributed. Someone with notable leadership abilities will be able to do that, however, raid leaders who are leaders in name only, might encounter some difficulties.

All that being said, there is still nothing preventing you from running guild-only raids, or raids with only those players whom you trust to do what you tell them.

I guess you missed my point. That's OK. In a nut shell I fully believe that this chang will introduce more drama into the equation than is:
a)Nessisary
&
b)worth it.

Cendaer
08-12-2007, 01:56 AM
I guess you missed my point. That's OK. In a nut shell I fully believe that this chang will introduce more drama into the equation than is:
a)Nessisary
&
b)worth it.

Awesome retort.

That totally convinces me that your position is the one and only truth.

:rolleyes:

Hvymetal
08-12-2007, 04:50 AM
Totally agree.

I will invite guildies and friends, and allied guilds. As to the rest...
And more than likely that is how people who are reacting to the new upcoming system like this were running it before so.....

Cendaer
08-12-2007, 08:20 AM
Someone said they thought this would encourage more pug invites and mixed raids. I think quite the opposite will happen, as most of the people I know will run raids only with people they trust and NEVER pug it. Horrid change.


Totally agree.

I will invite guildies and friends, and allied guilds. As to the rest...


And more than likely that is how people who are reacting to the new upcoming system like this were running it before so.....

Hvymetal, I suspect what you say is true.

The general tone of these types of posts lately, is that the picked-up party members are only picked up to fill empty spots, and are mostly deemed unnecessary to the success of the raid in general.

Most of what we're hearing doesn't reflect a spirit of inclusiveness; rather, there's more a tone of concern about what's going to happen to that one highly sought-after piece of loot if it happens to fall with a PUG's name on it.

Choice
08-12-2007, 08:38 AM
Wow and here I thought this was a GAME I play'd for the enjoyment of playing and hanging with friends (old and new) not just LOOT LOOT.

Relaxe and enjoy the game :-)
Relaxe and have fun with friends :cool:

Cause in the end its just a fun game to play.

Madmardigan
08-12-2007, 08:48 AM
bottom line, stop *****ing about raid loot, if you want more raid loot, raid more. if someone gets an item in their chest, it is their item no matter how much you want it.

Madmardigan
08-12-2007, 08:49 AM
Wow and here I thought this was a GAME I play'd for the enjoyment of playing and hanging with friends (old and new) not just LOOT LOOT.

Relaxe and enjoy the game :-)
Relaxe and have fun with friends :cool:

Cause in the end its just a fun game to play.

relax isn't spelled with an e

Hendrik
08-12-2007, 08:51 AM
Wow and here I thought this was a GAME I play'd for the enjoyment of playing and hanging with friends (old and new) not just LOOT LOOT.

Relaxe and enjoy the game :-)
Relaxe and have fun with friends :cool:

Cause in the end its just a fun game to play.

Morning friend!

Bolded part is something that is forgotten far to often, slipped by, or stepped over to get some fancy virtual item.

Hope to see you online tonight Choice!

:cool:

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-12-2007, 09:00 AM
I for one let any1 roll on any Tome, every class can benifit from a +2 tome i dont care what anyone says, BUT a barbarien NEEDS the +2 STR tome far more than a Cleric, i run need before greed. I also agree that we will see a definite lack in raids , i know i've lost interest. The only raids ill do now are large runs with only people i know VERY well in the party. Thus... i am sure that many other people feel the same and so there will be a drop in Pug raids :D meaning again with this new raid loot system they have yet again failed to accomplish any goal to which they set out to accomplish!

PS: you cant help us by bending us over :D


I think clerics could use the tome too, helps them carry around all those scrolls and wands everyones insisted on them carrying, not to mention some non 32-point clerics are sure to have low strength if they went the high wis/cha route and sacrificed their other stats for it. I mean clerics cant run around with mithral equipment to keep there loads light, nd they cant carry around mch in the terms of weapons because of the limited strength thing.

Emili
08-12-2007, 09:37 AM
I do not think the attitude on raids will be affected at all... I do think it will curb some exploiting people have figured out, but in general I believe most people will stay with their current trend.

1.) Raids (like any quest) poeple look for people they know and trust first ... usually to a larger degree in a raid but it's still the same attitude... you ask friends to join then look elsewhere.

2.) Loot - either dispenced by the system or the players still comes as random thing... sure a group currently decides who rolls for what, big deal the system will do it in the future with the option of the winner being generous. Does that mean discontent and disgruntle players pitted against each other? You can have that very much now with the players dispersing it and more than often do. There is less a chance of pulling loot on average in the new system, will that make players stop raiding? I highly doubt it, people currently grind for it now with no guarantee the items they're looking for will be in the chest.

I for one only roll for an item if it fits my build well... If I'm on my melee, I'm most likely going to tell a cleric they can have the +2 wisdom tome if it pops (and they have none yet) even though I can use an extra point in will save... down the line that cleric is a better cleric the next time I group with them... If an SoS popped though I do not expect the cleric not to roll for it either if they felt they really wanted it, although there's no denying such a weapon is a lot more devastating on an average melee than the average cleric... I hold my own opinion and attitude about loot and do not expect others to follow suit with my views.

sammyhextall
08-13-2007, 11:00 AM
Not going to speak on doing said raids this is just about loot. in my own opinion saying how to do a raid or the quick ways. really shouldn't be told. it has got to the point where you don't really need a thief to find a trap everyone knows where they are! :(

I think the new changes to it will be a good thing, I have done only one raid in my time here. saddly the person who I wont name. ran up and took the loot recalled out. yeah kinda stinks spending 5hrs on a raid only to have someone greedy take off. Before you go OMG 5hrs. only one person ever did the raid in the group (which was the one who stole everything and ran).

At least if they have it so everyone enjoys the reward maybe more people will want do them. Right now I am a bit jaded on doing them if you read above. I know one person who has done over 20 raids and due to bad luck, or as said before not the right class, race, blah blah etc never got a single raid item. Kinda stinks to go through all that only to be told "What do you need that for. you're a *whatever*"

But the flip side I also see the point of not wanting to make it easy to get +2 tomes or any number of all the raid loot *opens chest and frowns* "Oh man another +2 whatever tome (bound)" *sighs and deletes it*

I have fun here I enjoy meeting new people in groups. but as said before. Unless you are in a big guild. the chance of you getting into most raid parties is slim and none. due to peoples greed and other things. The drow said it best. Paranoia is just good thinking :P

Game on!

Draclaud
08-13-2007, 12:26 PM
Not going to speak on doing said raids this is just about loot. in my own opinion saying how to do a raid or the quick ways. really shouldn't be told. it has got to the point where you don't really need a thief to find a trap everyone knows where they are! :(

I think the new changes to it will be a good thing, I have done only one raid in my time here. saddly the person who I wont name. ran up and took the loot recalled out. yeah kinda stinks spending 5hrs on a raid only to have someone greedy take off. Before you go OMG 5hrs. only one person ever did the raid in the group (which was the one who stole everything and ran).

At least if they have it so everyone enjoys the reward maybe more people will want do them. Right now I am a bit jaded on doing them if you read above. I know one person who has done over 20 raids and due to bad luck, or as said before not the right class, race, blah blah etc never got a single raid item. Kinda stinks to go through all that only to be told "What do you need that for. you're a *whatever*"

But the flip side I also see the point of not wanting to make it easy to get +2 tomes or any number of all the raid loot *opens chest and frowns* "Oh man another +2 whatever tome (bound)" *sighs and deletes it*

I have fun here I enjoy meeting new people in groups. but as said before. Unless you are in a big guild. the chance of you getting into most raid parties is slim and none. due to peoples greed and other things. The drow said it best. Paranoia is just good thinking :P

Game on!


It never ceases to amaze me that people can be talked into voting in HIGHER taxes on themselves...

Cendaer
08-13-2007, 01:50 PM
It never ceases to amaze me that people can be talked into voting in HIGHER taxes on themselves...

Yet another witty retort from Draclaud.

You just don't get it, do you, Draclaud?

To follow your example, yes, sometimes people actually want to do something like pay higher taxes, because they want better schools, or better roads, or well-maintained stormwater drainage, or whatever.

Within the context of a PURaid, you're just not going to be able to arbitrarily say that Sammy gets the _____ that drops for Johnny in the raid treasure chest. You're also not going to be able to demand that Johnny put his loot up for a random roll by claiming that he supposedly can't use it.

You want to claim that this change will cause raiding to cease altogether, because people like you will no longer want to lead them as a result of the raid loot mechanic being changed. The reality of it is going to be that people will no longer raid with leaders who want to control who gets the best loot. Instead, they'll be able to assemble a group of adventurous souls who just might try the raid without an experienced leader; and this will be easier for them now, because everyone gets a chance at pulling something awesome. That will be tempting to people, much more tempting than joining a party knowing that only two people will get a chance at something awesome.

You feel that the devs are trying to strong-arm you into bringing along more people on your raids, yet, in turn, you want to be able to strong-arm those people you bring along into giving up their loots, and openly proclaim the fact that you're more than willing to ostracize those players who do not conform to your desires.

In addition, you make it perfectly clear that in your raids, if a PURaid member is not deemed worthy of their loot, then it will be given to someone who is deemed worthy. You try to make it sound like you've done them a favor just by letting them come along, but you make no mention of helping that person who helped you, get something they can use for their character. If you're not willing to run the raid over and over with the same group of people until everyone gets something, then you're really not doing anyone any favors at all; rather, you're just using them to get yourself what you want.

If you want to lead raids, then you're going to have to be sure you can impress your paty members with your leadership abilities, especially if you expect them to relinquish ownership of something that drops for them. Keep trying to do things with this "I'm the leader, I control who gets what from the treasure chest"-attitude, and people won't want to raid with you anymore.

You should be concerned, because your tone insinuates that your need for control over loot outwieghs your desire to ensure that everyone on the raid has a good time, and feels rewarded when it's completed successfully. Keep that up, and you won't have to ostracize anyone for not giving up their loots, because people will start avoiding you and your raids. Then you won't have to worry about whether or not a PURaid member will give up their loots, because only your closest and most trusted friends will group with you for raids.

With the new system for raid loot, no one will want to raid with a leader like you, because even though their chances of pulling that one highly sought-after item might be reduced, they still have a chance; whereas with you as a leader who wants to control who loots what, they'll have no chance at all.

Strakeln
08-13-2007, 02:09 PM
A few guildies and I already have our solution in place... BYOM.

As in, Bring Your Own Mule (to the raid). :D

Braddock_Tharmwell
08-13-2007, 02:34 PM
Sorry we don't live in a perfect world. It's human nature and perfectly accetable to give yourself the best odds of succeeding. Withinin the framework of the system that shortman raid was that way. Use a little bit of common sense here shall we?

a) Facing decreased membership servers merge.

b) Forum posters rail against all the "uber" players and how they don't have a chance to compete because of the raid loot system.

c) Company in a effort to make said people happy, and increase number of raiders inacts raiding policy.

e) End result is class warfare between the haves and have nots, with the system being "redesigned" to level the playing field.

THAT my friend is being strong armed...

Naive, not really. The supposed L33T will always turn their righteous noses up at the "lower" gamers. This is a perfect example, magnified is all.

I have been asked multiple times over my gaming time here in DDO to join a Guild. I have refused each and every time as I simply don't have the time to make a proper commitment. Thus I am a PUGGER and for some reason I am held in some sort of contempt by those who are in Guilds??

These types of arguments always amuse me really. Those who have a good thing going, despite what should be the status quo, a RAID having roughly 12 members each and every run, rail against anything that shifts the odds of their "good thing". Gotta call BS.

Change is always good, it refreshes things. There is so much bitterness around here about how stagnant things are these threads are a farce of near monumental proportion in retrospect.

The 2 item only drop Raid idea, from day one, was railed against. Almost to the point where many said the game would never last a week if it went live... You were here and do remember that right Drac?

Human nature is a **** poor excuse to use when defending the actions of groups who only seek to further their own ends with no concern about the tens of thousands of others who also have a stake at the table. Playing the game with respect for others, for the available fun or simply to gain new friends seems a far better case.

What is human nature, sadly enough, is the fear that one might actually get screwed out of something comprised of pixels. The fact that some can't seem to grasp that this whole thing is about, PIXELS is almost heart breaking really.

So all the Guilds who won't take us poor, down trodden, sorry excuse PUGGERS out to play with them anymore can take that attitude and place it where the preverbial sun don't shine. I don't know alot but I can tell you from experience, us PUGGERS will be just fine and simply arrive at your land of supposed Nirvana some 2-4 months behind schedule, and rest assured, it will still be there.

Draclaud
08-13-2007, 02:59 PM
Yet another witty retort from Draclaud.

Yes I'm very witty thanks!

You just don't get it, do you, Draclaud?

I got a pretty good handle on how this thing will work, I'm sorry that you can't see the forest through the trees

To follow your example, yes, sometimes people actually want to do something like pay higher taxes, because they want better schools, or better roads, or well-maintained stormwater drainage, or whatever.

Whoohoo Lets give them MORE money to mismanage instead of fixing goverment waste but that's another discussion for another day, and another forum.

Within the context of a PURaid, you're just not going to be able to arbitrarily say that Sammy gets the _____ that drops for Johnny in the raid treasure chest. You're also not going to be able to demand that Johnny put his loot up for a random roll by claiming that he supposedly can't use it.
When did I say this? If you mean a wizard pulling a SOS should give it to some one who can use it, then I'm guilty as charged and unapologetically so.

You want to claim that this change will cause raiding to cease altogether, because people like you will no longer want to lead them as a result of the raid loot mechanic being changed. The reality of it is going to be that people will no longer raid with leaders who want to control who gets the best loot. Instead, they'll be able to assemble a group of adventurous souls who just might try the raid without an experienced leader; and this will be easier for them now, because everyone gets a chance at pulling something awesome. That will be tempting to people, much more tempting than joining a party knowing that only two people will get a chance at something awesome.

Are you projecting a bit? I only like the idea of enforcing people do the right thing...giving the Wisdom Helm to the cleric for instance. Some times people need a (little) help doing the right thing.

You feel that the devs are trying to strong-arm you into bringing along more people on your raids, yet, in turn, you want to be able to strong-arm those people you bring along into giving up their loots, and openly proclaim the fact that you're more than willing to ostracize those players who do not conform to your desires.

Correction-More than willing to blacklist players who would wear a Storm Reaver Napkin on a pure barbarian for instance.

In addition, you make it perfectly clear that in your raids, if a PURaid member is not deemed worthy of their loot, then it will be given to someone who is deemed worthy. You try to make it sound like you've done them a favor just by letting them come along, but you make no mention of helping that person who helped you, get something they can use for their character. If you're not willing to run the raid over and over with the same group of people until everyone gets something, then you're really not doing anyone any favors at all; rather, you're just using them to get yourself what you want.

*sigh* Once again this is conjecture. You want my opinion, Yes I am doing them a favor by bringing them along, and teaching them the raid. If a wizard get's his dragon's eye and the rest of us are mele's who cares? We're not going to force him to give it up. Do you really think anyone would do that? I just lament that this hurts us 2 fold.

a) no more control over people doing the right thing, as explained prior.

and b) It is taking away what I feel is my rightly given right to a higher loot possibility by short manning a raid.

If you want to lead raids, then you're going to have to be sure you can impress your paty members with your leadership abilities, especially if you expect them to relinquish ownership of something that drops for them. Keep trying to do things with this "I'm the leader, I control who gets what from the treasure chest"-attitude, and people won't want to raid with you anymore.

I have never had any complaints. Furthermore it works both ways. None of my guys would run off with a dragons eye when a caster or cleric in the group needed it. Is that such a bad thing to get an agreement to play nice before hand?

You should be concerned, because your tone insinuates that your need for control over loot outwieghs your desire to ensure that everyone on the raid has a good time, and feels rewarded when it's completed successfully. Keep that up, and you won't have to ostracize anyone for not giving up their loots, because people will start avoiding you and your raids. Then you won't have to worry about whether or not a PURaid member will give up their loots, because only your closest and most trusted friends will group with you for raids.

Sooooo because I want an agreement to play nice and have a need vs greed mentality before I bring someone in, and am throughly against this raid loot change I'm automatically a control freak? Furthermore my "responsibility" is to my guildies, and in game friends first and foremost. That being said I don't think I'm being completely unfair in anything I've said or done.

With the new system for raid loot, no one will want to raid with a leader like you, because even though their chances of pulling that one highly sought-after item might be reduced, they still have a chance; whereas with you as a leader who wants to control who loots what, they'll have no chance at all.

You're absolutley 100% correct. People who want to auction up their pull, or run around with a SOS on a wizard just to be a pr#ck won't want to run with me, and I wouln't bring them in knowing that anyway. Besides we'll all find a better lottery to play than this one.

Draclaud
08-13-2007, 03:11 PM
Naive, not really. The supposed L33T will always turn their righteous noses up at the "lower" gamers. This is a perfect example, magnified is all.

Not exactly, if you have proven yourself chaces are you'd make it to the good guy/trusted list

I have been asked multiple times over my gaming time here in DDO to join a Guild. I have refused each and every time as I simply don't have the time to make a proper commitment. Thus I am a PUGGER and for some reason I am held in some sort of contempt by those who are in Guilds??

Not in contempt just not trusted

These types of arguments always amuse me really. Those who have a good thing going, despite what should be the status quo, a RAID having roughly 12 members each and every run, rail against anything that shifts the odds of their "good thing". Gotta call BS.

The status quo says we should all have a 3 bedroom house and 2 cars and 2.5 kids. So that fact that we found a better way to do it and are being strongarmed out of it, is like someone saying "It's not fair you have a 5 bedroom house, and in the future we are outlawing anything bigger that a 3 bedroom.

Change is always good, it refreshes things. There is so much bitterness around here about how stagnant things are these threads are a farce of near monumental proportion in retrospect.

Change for the sake of change...IS NOT a good thing

The 2 item only drop Raid idea, from day one, was railed against. Almost to the point where many said the game would never last a week if it went live... You were here and do remember that right Drac?

Yep and we found away around it. Don't punish us for finding a better way to do things. That's what I rail against. the idea that as soon as we find a loophole they use a sledge hammer to swat a fly. Instead of slamming us how about offering a carrot, say...in addition to the 2 glyphed items an extra 1/6 chance of getting a raid item in your name? See incentive...not punishment...

Human nature is a **** poor excuse to use when defending the actions of groups who only seek to further their own ends with no concern about the tens of thousands of others who also have a stake at the table. Playing the game with respect for others, for the available fun or simply to gain new friends seems a far better case.

I agree, but until we all play by the same rules, you have to do for yourself.

What is human nature, sadly enough, is the fear that one might actually get screwed out of something comprised of pixels. The fact that some can't seem to grasp that this whole thing is about, PIXELS is almost heart breaking really.

LOL It's about the principle actually. If it keeps going this way, I'll just find another game to play. "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything"

So all the Guilds who won't take us poor, down trodden, sorry excuse PUGGERS out to play with them anymore can take that attitude and place it where the preverbial sun don't shine. I don't know alot but I can tell you from experience, us PUGGERS will be just fine and simply arrive at your land of supposed Nirvana some 2-4 months behind schedule, and rest assured, it will still be there.

Good luck, I'll be pulling for you.

Cendaer
08-13-2007, 03:35 PM
When did I say this as well? Are you projecting a bit? I only like the idea of enforcing people do the right thing...giving the Wisdom Helm to the cleric for instance. Some times people need a (little) help doing the right thing.

You like the idea of being able to enforce what you think is the "right thing." The reality of the situation is that if it is, indeed, the "right thing," people would do it anyway, without needing you to enforce it into happening.


Correction-More than willing to blacklist players who would wear a Storm Reaver Napkin on a pure barbarian for instance.

As I've said before, you have no right to decide what any any character can use, because you don't get to determine how any other player's character is built or played. Just because a character is 100% Barbarian at the time the napkin drops, does NOT mean that character will remain 100% Barbarian all the way to level 20.


*sigh* Once again this is conjecture. You want my opinion, Yes I am doing them a favor by bringing them along, and teaching them the raid. If a wizard get's his dragon's eye and the rest of us are mele's who cares? We're not going to force him to give it up. Do you really think anyone would do that? I just lament that this hurts us 2 fold.

As has been stated by many people, in this thread and others, it's already happening. Some raid leaders are already absconding with all the loot, leaving everyone else empty handed. If that's not the same as forcing someone to give up their chance at a loot, then what is it?


a) no more control over people doing the right thing, as explained prior.

and b) It is taking away what I feel is my rightly given right to a higher loot possibility by short manning a raid.

Your actual problem is (a), this feeling that you need to control people to do what you think is "right." You need to realize that if you want to control anyone, it will only be those who are willing to be controlled by the likes of you.

As for (b), you have no "right" to anything except that which the developers give you. That statement alone exemplifies the fact that you're more concerned about loot, than you are about fellowship, and shines a bright light on your greedy nature.


I have never had any complaints. Furthermore it works both ways. None of my guys would run off with a dragons eye when a caster or cleric in the group needed it. Is that such a bad thing to get an agreement to play nice before hand?

If you've had no complaints regarding your leadership abilities from other people before, then you should have none in the future. Furthermore, nothing is stopping you from getting the raid party to agree to your loot distribution mandate beforehand. The only risk you'll face now, is whether or not those who agree at the start of the raid, still respect you enough to follow that mandate when it comes time to open the raid treasure chest. If you're truly the awesomely respected raid leader that you claim to be, then it shouldn't be a concern, because by the end of the raid, people will be just as willing to cooperate with your wishes as they were when you started.


Sooooo because I want an agreement to play nice and have a need vs greed mentality before I bring someone in, and am throughly against this raid loot change I'm automatically a control freak? Furthermore my "responsibility" is to my guildies, and in game friends first and foremost. That being said I don't think I'm being completely unfair in anything I've said or done.

Here you are again, wanting to determine who needs what, when you really have no right to do so. Your wanting to determine need before greed in this game is tantamount to telling other people how to build and play their characters. Go ahead and limit your raids to you and your most trusted friends.

I highly doubt that any PUGs will even notice that you're not including them in your raid activities.

Draclaud
08-13-2007, 03:40 PM
Here you are again, wanting to determine who needs what, when you really have no right to do so. Your wanting to determine need before greed in this game is tantamount to telling other people how to build and play their characters. Go ahead and limit your raids to you and your most trusted friends.

I highly doubt that any PUGs will even notice that you're not including them in your raid activities.


So full of hate my friend...I feel for you. I understand your stance that if a wizard is a tool and wants a SOS it's his right to take it, and I hope you understand it's my right not to group with said tool.

Ken_Dorak
08-13-2007, 04:08 PM
Doesn't really matter to me.

I ran the dragon with 2 different characters one night and got a piece of loot for each and that will be the only raid loot I'll ever see with my loot luck.

So either way doesn't matter for me.

HumanJHawkins
08-13-2007, 04:55 PM
<CUT>I understand your stance that if a wizard is a tool and wants a SOS it's his right to take it<CUT>

Ok, I have to ask... what is "SOS"?

Back to the thread: My opinion - By completing a raid (under the current system), you have the right to roll for any loot that pops. And, you have the right to take loot that you successfully roll for.

If you choose to give up your right to roll for anything because you can't use it, that should be commended. But you should not be required to give it up... The choice is yours.

If you take and sell raid loot to a vendor you should be hung for stupidity. But you should have the right to trade or sell any loot you win (right from the chest, in party) to another party member. This is the only way everyone can have equal chance to benefit from sometimes lopsided raid loot. And it also makes sure good raid loot is not squandered. And it is 100% fair as long as everyone knows the rules up front.

Draclaud
08-13-2007, 05:01 PM
So full of hate my friend...I feel for you. I understand your stance that if a wizard is a tool and wants a SOS it's his right to take it, and I hope you understand it's my right not to group with said tool.


Ok, I have to ask... what is "SOS"?

Back to the thread: My opinion - By completing a raid (under the current system), you have the right to roll for any loot that pops. And, you have the right to take loot that you successfully roll for.

If you choose to give up your right to roll for anything because you can't use it, that should be commended. But you should not be required to give it up... The choice is yours.

If you take and sell raid loot to a vendor you should be hung for stupidity. But you should have the right to trade or sell any loot you win (right from the chest, in party) to another party member. This is the only way everyone can have equal chance to benefit from sometimes lopsided raid loot. And it also makes sure good raid loot is not squandered. And it is 100% fair as long as everyone knows the rules up front.

It's the uber two handed weapon in the game.

I have no problem with anything you said. Sounds like we agree.

Braddock_Tharmwell
08-13-2007, 11:12 PM
I can't torture everyone else with this but...


"LOL It's about the principle actually. If it keeps going this way, I'll just find another game to play. "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything"

OK. Here is how I would stack the above three items for best AC and HP effect. :)

"LOL It's about the principle actually."

"If it keeps going this way, I'll just find another game to play."

"You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything"

"LOL It's about the principle actually."

I am going to take my stand with DDO. We may meet again. It does happen. We will have a fresh slate at that time... It's a principle thing. ;)

Lorien_the_First_One
08-13-2007, 11:51 PM
Dude... Did someone actually do that to you? If I saw someone do that while I was in party, they would land on my blacklist even if I didn't know the guy who got ripped.

I have only been in five or six raid groups, but every time it was up to the players involved to choose whether to opt in or out of a roll. And everyone was always very thoughtful about it.

I've been in several raids with several guilds (never in a general pug, only when half or more were from a guild) where that guild had a policy of what builds could roll for what items and if they disagreed with you they just ignored your roll.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-13-2007, 11:55 PM
It never ceases to amaze me that people can be talked into voting in HIGHER taxes on themselves...

Of course, some people understand the value of supporting society and aren't just about greed and their own self interest.

Krell
08-14-2007, 03:59 AM
I've read all i can find on the new raiding system, i for one have very little incentive to continue raiding. I feel we are being punished for having discovered the means to 1-4 man these raids. I mean how DARE people like myself who dont have 34 guildies to call upon when raiding time to discover the means to duo the queen raid? Or the titan, or 3 man the dragon? Even to solo the reaver. Or is it our fault that turbine created raids that once you discover the 'trick' to beating them you need only a few people? Take for instance the Reaver raid, you have to stand there until he lights all the orbs, get fly, and stay in the air (where he cant harm you much) and them go pull a lever? Wow... who would have thought this had solo'able potential? Or perhaps the titan where all you need is to do is have 2 people, 1 on the switch and another with aggro to drop the pillars... wow thats hard. Dragon ... i have no complaints i still enjoy it but as we level up its becoming easier to output more damage and thus kill her, my sorc can potentially do 1,800 a hit to Veleh. but the pre-raid to it you need at least 4 people at one time or another. Now the queen raid... a caster can solo it with firewall. Perhaps the problem is not with us. Now i dont want to sit here and point out things people already know without offering a solution of my own. Perhaps instead of changing the raid looting system that has kept people discovering new and easier was to run these quest, we should keep it the same and perhaps change the actually RAID system. Perhaps in a raid dungeon you can not enter without 6-12 people in the party? I admit this will make raiding hard for people like myself but will solve what i see as the main issue the DM's are having. Perhaps you dont even need that large of a change, changing 5 quests are alot of work you know, why not just change it so your party cannot be converted to a raid group untill you have the full 6 people in the party then you can invite more (once it is changed to a raid group if the 6th member leaves it will be auto-converted back to normal party of course) Perhaps we should do that instead of paying a half dozen game designers hundreds of dollars to change and entire looting system for just 5 out of... what hundreds of quest? seems like to much trouble to me. Let me hear your opinions.

Some good suggestions there. Personally I like the idea of questing with a large group of people in a challenging dungeon, regardless of the loot. I've played previous Turbine games where we would have 5-6 parties of 12 each running the same quest. Team leaders would communicate then we would all do our part. Larger groups feel like more of an event and are more exciting.

I'm fine with any solution that leads to bigger groups running the top quests each module with everyone having a fair shot at top loot without dependence on one players judgement. One thing that I think originally attracted many players to DDO was everyone getting loot out of chests and no player determining what you get like many other games.

tekn0mage
08-14-2007, 04:24 AM
Which comes part and parcel with the current raid loot system as well.

In all of the raids, there are certain times when a player will, literally, do nothing and add nothing to the quest. And then get to roll on raid loot.

You know this, I know this, pretty much all of us know this.

Does it make either raid loot system fair, unfair, balanced, whatever?

Only as much as we want it to and work with it. And even then...

Under the current system I can put together a short group of people that will ALL contribute. I will not be forced to bring filler players (which are major liabilities in the raid context) just to make it seem "fair" to people. Bottom line is, I don't want ANYONE on the raid that cannot contribute 110%. Why? Because it's not exactly true that every raid only needs a few people doing the work.

We just did the Titan tonight... AGAIN that mission is bugged. The laser blast has the ability to destroy the bottoms of the pillars. We fired it for the 5th time and knocked out the last pillar that we needed to drop in order to get the kill.

Things go wrong in raids. The last thing we need is to drag MORE people than necessary. We have enough problems to worry about just the way these developers make these things.

Just face it.... DDO is nothing but a bunch of unimaginative devs that make missions in an extremely linear fashion. This narrow-sightedness doesn't take more than a few tries to figure out, and once that's done, they go and change it. Every single time.

Let's count up all the man-hours "fixing" raids (which is really re-working the raid once its been figured out) and see if we're really getting our money's worth here.

Don't tell me its only $14.95 a month. It's been a year and a half now.

Draclaud
08-14-2007, 09:23 AM
Of course, some people understand the value of supporting society and aren't just about greed and their own self interest.

Gotta love those socialists... Self interest and greed are the mother of invention. If a doctor makes the same amount of money as a garbage man, then who in the freaking world would want to do all the extra work to become a doctor? I say let people keep their money, they earned it not the big bad government. Just like if I can short raid a man I should get my increased chances, I earned it.

Rindalathar
08-14-2007, 10:38 AM
Gotta love those socialists... Self interest and greed are the mother of invention. If a doctor makes the same amount of money as a garbage man, then who in the freaking world would want to do all the extra work to become a doctor? I say let people keep their money, they earned it not the big bad government. Just like if I can short raid a man I should get my increased chances, I earned it.

I gotta chime in here. Hey, Drac, you're assessment of both a socialist economy and capitalist one seem pretty negative. On one hand you have greedy, self-interested people whose only goal is to make money apparently, which in turn, sparks innovation and invention. I guess no one would feel compelled in any way to find the cure for cancer other than to make money right?

Then you have the socialist economy. Yes, things like socialized medicine are evil right? That's why America's health care gets the worst ratings of any first world country, we have one of the lowest average lifespans and 40 million uninsured.

Question: So if everyone kept all of their money (since they earned it) who would pay for road improvements, snow plowing, trash pick-up, fire companies, police departments, ambulance service, maintaining schools and prisons, etc.? Self-interested, greedy business people (Just using your words)? I kinda doubt it.

You know, I'm both an American history and government teacher by day, who volunteers with my local government in my free time. Greed doesn't movitate me in my job nor does listening to my neighbors complain to me about why nothing (in their opinion) gets done locally, although I've never seen them at a meeting in years.

It's the potential for making a difference that sparks my interest period.

This game is about having fun. If you're only reason for being here is to worry so, so much about one aspect of the game...raid loot, then that's your business, but the rest of us will simply move on just like we did with the enhancement change, the spell point change, the POP changes, and right now with the server merges. Actually, I think you'll be surprised as to how little this will probably affect the game overall. People will still play. People will still raid and at the end of day, this whole debate will fade into the background like every other.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Gotta love those socialists... Self interest and greed are the mother of invention. If a doctor makes the same amount of money as a garbage man, then who in the freaking world would want to do all the extra work to become a doctor? I say let people keep their money, they earned it not the big bad government. Just like if I can short raid a man I should get my increased chances, I earned it.

Who said I was a socialist? Actually I'm a Conservative who pushes for lower taxation. Even a Conservative is in favor of some taxes and beleives there is a need for the protection of certain base services and rights in society. You are what, an anarcist who believes in eliminating the government totally?

Draclaud
08-14-2007, 11:05 AM
I gotta chime in here. Hey, Drac, you're assessment of both a socialist economy and capitalist one seem pretty negative. On one hand you have greedy, self-interested people whose only goal is to make money apparently, which in turn, sparks innovation and invention. I guess no one would feel compelled in any way to find the cure for cancer other than to make money right?

Some truely alutruistic folks sure. On the whole, most people are concerned about their immediate circle. So that may apply to 1-3% of the population. The exception proves the rule ya know. How many people pick up the guitar because they love music? Hell no most of em do it to pick up chicks lol.

Then you have the socialist economy. Yes, things like socialized medicine are evil right? That's why America's health care gets the worst ratings of any first world country, we have one of the lowest average lifespans and 40 million uninsured.

OK get off the Micheal Moore koolaid. Just because it's in a documentary doesn't mean it's true. I could take a **** in a box and call it a documentary. If we rate so low how come every person in the world with the means to comes here for treatment? How many of those uninsured are being leeches on the society? It's all about personal responsibility here. If you can't support yourself, it's not my job to support you.

Question: So if everyone kept all of their money (since they earned it) who would pay for road improvements, snow plowing, trash pick-up, fire companies, police departments, ambulance service, maintaining schools and prisons, etc.? Self-interested, greedy business people (Just using your words)? I kinda doubt it.

Not all taxes are bad fella. Everyone should pay their fair share, and by fair share I mean a flat percentage of thier income. It's not "fair that the bottom 50% of the people pay nothing in taxes while the rest of us carry them around like a parasite. Besides, if there is a market for it the private sector will do the job for the right price. We kinda agree on one thing, as the function of government *should* do a few things. Those are Police, Fire Department, Military and border enforcement. That's about it. Everything else is fluff, that should be handled be the individual.

You know, I'm both an American history and government teacher by day, who volunteers with my local government in my free time. Greed doesn't movitate me in my job nor does listening to my neighbors complain to me about why nothing (in their opinion) gets done locally, although I've never seen them at a meeting in years.

Coulda guessed that you had an ".edu" at the end of your email address. I'm sure you've heard this before but those who can do, and those who can't... I applaud you in your proffession, and I am glad some people are willing to do that job for a wage far under what your education deems your worth (guessing). I'm sure that you teach right down the middle and by no means use your profession to indoctrinate young minds into your personal philosiphy.;)

It's the potential for making a difference that sparks my interest period.

Grats, you are the exception not the rule.

This game is about having fun. If you're only reason for being here is to worry so, so much about one aspect of the game...raid loot, then that's your business, but the rest of us will simply move on just like we did with the enhancement change, the spell point change, the POP changes, and right now with the server merges. Actually, I think you'll be surprised as to how little this will probably affect the game overall. People will still play. People will still raid and at the end of day, this whole debate will fade into the background like every other.

You're most likely going to be proven correct. That said, if we don't speak out against it before it happens, we have no right to complain once it goes through. I foresee the dreaded "hard core" gamers will move on, and the "casual players" will for a short time have a "self preceved boon". Then just like everything they will become jaded and will not have the raid item collection to keep their interest like the hard core gamers did. Overall, it just puts an expiration date on the game. Too bad because this is the best DnD based game to date. It would be a shame to see the idea die.

Draclaud
08-14-2007, 11:09 AM
Who said I was a socialist? Actually I'm a Conservative who pushes for lower taxation. Even a Conservative is in favor of some taxes and beleives there is a need for the protection of certain base services and rights in society. You are what, an anarcist who believes in eliminating the government totally?

Actually I'm a member of the vast right wing conspiracy that believes the government has a responsibility to provide Infastructure and nothing else. All the programs are just wealth re-distribution, and that's not *supposed* to be the function of government. If you need help making ends meet, then that's the job of a charity, not of the Fed.

Hvymetal
08-14-2007, 11:21 AM
Actually I'm a member of the vast right wing conspiracy that believes the government has a responsibility to provide Infastructure and nothing else. All the programs are just wealth re-distribution, and that's not *supposed* to be the function of government. If you need help making ends meet, then that's the job of a charity, not of the Fed.
So basically you would like to turn DDO's loot system into a model of the ultra-conservatists economic model? That right there is a perfect reason to impliment this, as we have an example of how this economic model effects a society.

Draclaud
08-14-2007, 11:25 AM
So basically you would like to turn DDO's loot system into a model of the ultra-conservatists economic model? That right there is a perfect reason to impliment this, as we have an example of how this economic model effects a society.

Don't confuse the two arguments. You could also say that it should stay the same so as to not have to take on "extra" players just to recieve the same static raid chance. It's pretty easy to take something out of context to attempt to make your position.

Rindalathar
08-14-2007, 11:26 AM
OK get off the Micheal Moore koolaid. Just because it's in a documentary doesn't mean it's true. I could take a **** in a box and call it a documentary. If we rate so low how come every person in the world with the means to comes here for treatment? How many of those uninsured are being leeches on the society? It's all about personal responsibility here. If you can't support yourself, it's not my job to support you.

Well, first I didn't see his documentary and second it's cold hard facts that I've quoted. You can look them up anywhere. Where are your "leeches" stats.? That's a completely subjective opinion. Fact: there are only two counties in the entire nation where someone working 40 hrs. a week at a minimum wage job can afford the average rent for an apartment. I guess those leeches aren't sucking hard enough. No one said it was your job to support anyone. The health care system is broken. Ask any American who's lost their insurance over the last few years if everything is honky dorry.
[
Coulda guessed that you had an ".edu" at the end of your email address. I'm sure you've heard this before but those who can do, and those who can't... I applaud you in your proffession, and I am glad some people are willing to do that job for a wage far under what your education deems your worth (guessing). I'm sure that you teach right down the middle and by no means use your profession to indoctrinate young minds into your personal philosiphy.;)

First of all, teaching is my third profession and I made heaps more money in both jobs. Both left me feeling empty. Secondly, I teach high school, so no .edu here. Thirdly, I can't teach any personal philosophy in my school. It's against policy. Fourth, I'm a registered Independent and have been since I'm 18 and I've voted for both Dems and Reps. over the years.

BTW, I didn't insult your profession. That flippant "those you can't" comment truly shines a light on who you are.

I wouldn't waste any of your time posting back because I'm not reading this thread anymore.

/ignored

Lorien_the_First_One
08-14-2007, 12:10 PM
Actually I'm a member of the vast right wing conspiracy that believes the government has a responsibility to provide Infastructure and nothing else. All the programs are just wealth re-distribution, and that's not *supposed* to be the function of government. If you need help making ends meet, then that's the job of a charity, not of the Fed.

Wait I'm confused... you want people to take what they have earned right? Weren't you on the side of a loot redistribution system by the group leader based on need not greed? Um, isn't that the socialist side?

Draclaud
08-14-2007, 12:14 PM
Wait I'm confused... you want people to take what they have earned right? Weren't you on the side of a loot redistribution system by the group leader based on need not greed? Um, isn't that the socialist side?

My bigger focus is on the lack of stuff to go aroud and getting forced to bring twelve guys to get the same 2 raid items when I can do the raid with 4 or less. There's no benefit to bring along the extra guys, when you have no extra chance to get the items best for your build. If you like don't call it need vs greed call it the "don't be a jerk" system. I feel that a smaller pie leaves everyone hungry, and the lactose intollerant one shouldn't be eating the cheesecake.

dragonofsteel2
08-14-2007, 01:05 PM
Gotta love those socialists... Self interest and greed are the mother of invention. If a doctor makes the same amount of money as a garbage man, then who in the freaking world would want to do all the extra work to become a doctor? I say let people keep their money, they earned it not the big bad government. Just like if I can short raid a man I should get my increased chances, I earned it.

I agree that this greed atuitude that they deserve the same chance at loot as the ones put more work into is stupid. Please get your freaking politics out of the furoms. This a game furom not politics.

Draclaud
08-14-2007, 01:20 PM
I agree that this greed atuitude that they deserve the same chance at loot as the ones put more work into is stupid. Please get your freaking politics out of the furoms. This a game furom not politics.

Just trying to make a point by making comparisions. Sorry you were offended. I just find it easier to make the point by giving people real world examples. I guess I just need to simplify my observations as to not offend people.

Wizzly_Bear
08-31-2007, 01:56 PM
What about us battle arcanes? I give other tanks my buffs to help out the party and to help everyone have a good time, but if I were selfish and only buffed myself then I can personally outfight many pure tanks I've played with. Would I still be denied the SoS? What about those arcanes who would tank but don't because they're always denied a decent weapon to use? My capped wizard has never seen a decent weapon drop in loot, only xbows, wands, pots, et cetera. He was able to get a cloudburst in a recent reaver run though due to my raidmates lacking the "need vs. greed" attitude **** that most other groups try to use to guarantee that they get what they want and deny me what I want. 'Oh, darn, we got staff of arcane power and green blade, you can have them'....ummm....thanks, but I doubt I'll use them 'but youre a wizard...?' yes, yes i am