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Impaqt
08-06-2007, 01:14 PM
OK, Eyeam was orginaly posted under the "Cleric" forums... I'm putting him here in the Fighter Forums now though. This build is a Fighter that CAN Heal. I have run this Build all the way to Cap and he has been a Blast to Play. The Solo Capabilites are awesome, The Versatility he adds to a Party is evident in the build.




Introducing "The Holy Destroyer"

9Cleric/3 Paly/2 Fighter
Now that I've level Caped Eyeam, I decided to come back and adjust the build to exactly what I ended up with. Ultimate class progression changed to 9Clr/3Paly/2 Fighter instead of the original 8/4/2 plan. I felt getting those few L9 Spells were worth the trade off.

Attributes:
STR:28 16 +3 Levels +1 Fighter STR +6 STR Gloves(or Divine Power) +2 Favor Tome
DEX:16 11 +1 Tome +4 Dex Boots
CON:22 14 +2 Dwarf CON ENH +1 Tome +5 CON Necklace
INT:10
WIS:20 13 +2 Cleric Wis +1 Tome +4 WIS Helm
CHR:20 13 +1 Cleric CHR +1 Tome +5 CHR Ring


Hit Points:319

20 Heroic Durability
72 Cleric L9
30 Paly L3
20 FIghter L2
84 CON Bonus
16 TOughness Feat
50 Toughness Enhancement
10 Dragnic Vitality
30 Greater False Life
-------
332
17 AID-Self Buff
--------
349

SAVES:Standing Saves:31/21/26 Against Spells 18 Reflex Against Traps
6/3/6 L9 Cleric Base
3/0/0 L2 Fighter base
3/1/1 L4 Paly Base
4/4/4 +4 Resistance Cloak
5/5/5 Paly CHR Bonus
2/2/2 Paly Aura Bonus
5/3/5 CON/DEX/WIS
--------------------
28/18/23


4/4/4 Greater Heroism
2/2/2 Recitation

34/24/29 + Dwarven Spell Resistance on top of that......Not too shabby

AC:

10/10 BASE
13/13 +5 Full Plate
2/2 Dex Bonus Arm Mast I
3/3 SoF/SPec Ops
7/7 +5 Mith Heavy Sheild
2/2 Chaos Guards
2/3 Inv Ring/Barkskin
2/2 Paly AUra
----------
41/42

To Hit Unbuffed:
11 Base
9 STR Bonus
2 Dwarf Axe Attack
1 Slashing Focus
5 Weapon
------
28

Self BUFFED:
14 Base(Divine Power)
9 Divine Power +6 STR
2 Dwarf Axe Atack
1 Slashing Focus
5 Weapon
2/4 Heroism/Greater Heroism
3 Divine Favor (+3 Luck)
-------------
35/37


Spell Points:
Calculateded with 20WIS
80 Magical Training
300 Base (L9 Cleric)
90 Cleric Bonus(Wis)
50 Paly Bonus(WIS)
30 Dwarven Faith
80 EoZ
75 Mental TOughness
70 Improved Mental Toughness
--------
785
100 PoP or Magi Item
----------
885 Spell Points


Progression:

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 2 (Cleric)
Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 4 (Cleric)
Level 5 (Paladin)
Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness

Level 7 (Paladin)
Level 8 (Cleric)
Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell

Level 10 (Cleric)
Level 11 (Cleric)
Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Level 13 (Cleric)
Level14(Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I

Gadget2775
08-06-2007, 02:49 PM
Very nice build. I'm currently lvl 12 on an Elf version of this build. Taking advantage of the Faith and Elf enhancements for long swords. Love the build so far.

Current intention is to end 11 Cleric/6 Fighter/3 Paladin...You?

Only problem I saw in your numbers was the unbuffed BaB was one high. Lvl 9 Cleric 6 + 3 Pally + 2 Fighter = 11 not 12.

Impaqt
08-06-2007, 02:59 PM
Originally, I was gona do 12/4/4 with the build.. But as of now, I'm thinking more along your lines of 11/6/3.

The only other thing I want out of the Cleric side is a HEAL spell that doesnt fail. (I roll 1-3 FAR too often on Heal scrolls.... Rediculous really)

Fixed the BAB... Dunno how I missed that.

Gadget2775
08-07-2007, 03:24 PM
It's definitly painfull to loose the heals. I tend to roll low at least half the time with my scrolls, painfull and expensive. Also looking foreward to 30pt resist. 20's work, but I burn through alot of extra protection points without the 30's

ccheath776
10-12-2007, 10:36 AM
I endorse this build.

I left out the fighter and went paladin.
Definenately still a good build.

Totally recomended.

Impaqt
10-12-2007, 10:45 AM
I endorse this build.

I left out the fighter and went paladin.
Definenately still a good build.

Totally recomended.

So are y ou goign 11/3 or 9/5?

I really like 11/3 for the current cap the way I play the character... When the cap goes up I would definatly grab the 2 fighter levels... and the rest of the way through the game...

Riot
10-12-2007, 10:49 AM
Battle Cleric # 273... Welcome to your post.
Behind the Tanks please, no pushing, no shoving.

ErgonomicCat
10-29-2007, 05:24 PM
When you're running this guy, are you buffing yourself as you go along? Or are you saving most of your SP for heals, and buffing for boss fights?

I tried playing a straight classed battle cleric and found that I just didn't enjoy it, mainly because I didn't feel like I could ignore healing others. If I were playing a build like this, with far less SP, I think I could manage - heals are just for incaps, and myself in lieu of pots.

But I'm curious how the pros divvy up their SPs....

Also, no DVs?

Impaqt
10-29-2007, 05:30 PM
When you're running this guy, are you buffing yourself as you go along? Or are you saving most of your SP for heals, and buffing for boss fights?

I tried playing a straight classed battle cleric and found that I just didn't enjoy it, mainly because I didn't feel like I could ignore healing others. If I were playing a build like this, with far less SP, I think I could manage - heals are just for incaps, and myself in lieu of pots.

But I'm curious how the pros divvy up their SPs....

Also, no DVs?

I've totally given up on Eyeam being anything other than an Emergency Healer. Hes DPS. Cleric is nothing but an Icon.

Spell points go twoards keeping Divine Power up, Recitation, and Divine Favor. Most quests I self Resist as 20pt Reisists are more than enough. I'll also help with Fom, Deathward and True Seeing....... I do not represent myself as a Cleric.. Ever.... I wont Pug him unless there is already a celric in the group when I join. and even then I send a Tell to the Person LFMing before I join.

If the group Needs a Cleric, I have 2 builds that are more Cleric-y I can grab...

oronisi
10-31-2007, 06:58 PM
This isn't a FIGHTER that can heal....it's a WARRIOR that can heal. FIGHTER is a class, just as specific as CLERIC.

This is a cleric build, that fights. Call it what you want in terms of role, but fighter isn't a role, it's a class. Tank, DPS, warrior, whatever.

Impaqt
10-31-2007, 07:15 PM
This isn't a FIGHTER that can heal....it's a WARRIOR that can heal. FIGHTER is a class, just as specific as CLERIC.

This is a cleric build, that fights. Call it what you want in terms of role, but fighter isn't a role, it's a class. Tank, DPS, warrior, whatever.

OK, if thats how you see things thats great.....

Fighter may be a class, sure, I'll give ya that.... But Fighting is an activity... and if I choose to call my build a Fighting Cleric, thats my perogative.. I fail to see how that effect you at all.

Thanks for the Bump though!

Twerpp
10-31-2007, 08:04 PM
I dont see how this is better than a self buffed pure cleric who took a weapon prof and improved crit. Your not beating a melee at melee or a healer at healing.
And if the pally saves/aura are an issue why not 12/2 you get your divine saves, +1 aura, 3 levels arent needed you can remove fear/disease yourself, the extra 1ac/save enhancement is negligible since you have divine saves and heavy armor already, then you've got access to your heal spells like you say you need. You can drop mental toughnesses in favor of the melee feats you want as your higher cleric level gives you more sp, pick them up after level cap increase if you really want them, or 11/2/1 would give you a feat if youre bent on the free feat and still you got your heal spell. I just don't see what you gained by pimping out an entire 5 levels vs 1 to 3 tops.

Impaqt
10-31-2007, 09:15 PM
I dont see how this is better than a self buffed pure cleric who took a weapon prof and improved crit. Your not beating a melee at melee or a healer at healing.
And if the pally saves/aura are an issue why not 12/2 you get your divine saves, +1 aura, 3 levels arent needed you can remove fear/disease yourself, the extra 1ac/save enhancement is negligible since you have divine saves and heavy armor already, then you've got access to your heal spells like you say you need. You can drop mental toughnesses in favor of the melee feats you want as your higher cleric level gives you more sp, pick them up after level cap increase if you really want them, or 11/2/1 would give you a feat if youre bent on the free feat and still you got your heal spell. I just don't see what you gained by pimping out an entire 5 levels vs 1 to 3 tops.

You realize theres a level cap raise soon right?


I build my characters for l20..... I use Heal scrolls just fine.

oronisi
11-01-2007, 10:44 AM
OK, if thats how you see things thats great.....

Fighter may be a class, sure, I'll give ya that.... But Fighting is an activity... and if I choose to call my build a Fighting Cleric, thats my perogative.. I fail to see how that effect you at all.

Thanks for the Bump though!

I don't have a problem with what you called the build, I have a problem with the logic you used in why you posted a cleric build in the Fighter(class) forums. You have more levels of Cleric and Paladin, and this build belongs in those forums or a more general forum, not here.

Impaqt
11-01-2007, 10:47 AM
I don't have a problem with what you called the build, I have a problem with the logic you used in why you posted a cleric build in the Fighter(class) forums. You have more levels of Cleric and Paladin, and this build belongs in those forums or a more general forum, not here.

Sorry, I dont agree. Maybe Paly.. but this guys only uses Paly for Saves and Imunities.

This build is Designed to be a Primary fighter in a group if need be. and has been on numerous occatians. Includeing a very successful Madstone Elite run just recently.

Level makeup does NOT define the Role of a Character. The Build and how its played does.

oronisi
11-01-2007, 02:36 PM
Sorry, I dont agree. Maybe Paly.. but this guys only uses Paly for Saves and Imunities.

This build is Designed to be a Primary fighter in a group if need be. and has been on numerous occatians. Includeing a very successful Madstone Elite run just recently.

Level makeup does NOT define the Role of a Character. The Build and how its played does.

Exactly. Do you not see the own discrepancy between how you refer to clerics and paladins and how it differs from fighters?

You refer to clerics and paladins as classes, while you use the term fighter interchangably as a role and a class. This is the fighter CLASS forums. The role you decide to fill with your character has no bearing on what class forums your build belongs in.

Impaqt
11-01-2007, 02:59 PM
Exactly. Do you not see the own discrepancy between how you refer to clerics and paladins and how it differs from fighters?

You refer to clerics and paladins as classes, while you use the term fighter interchangably as a role and a class. This is the fighter CLASS forums. The role you decide to fill with your character has no bearing on what class forums your build belongs in.

THis is rediculous.... If you think I've commited such a sin, just hit the Little Report buttun up there and see how far it gets...

I play Eyeam as a Fighter.. Thats the forum I choose to put him in.

moorewr
11-01-2007, 03:05 PM
THis is rediculous.... If you think I've commited such a sin, just hit the Little Report buttun up there and see how far it gets...

DUDE - you're so getting flowers and ponies for this one.

:p

Impaqt
11-01-2007, 03:23 PM
Hope not.... Or maybe I do...... :cool:

Twerpp
11-01-2007, 05:36 PM
You realize theres a level cap raise soon right?


I build my characters for l20..... I use Heal scrolls just fine.

Oh because earlier you were saying you wished you had a real heal spell that doesnt fail...
Anyway I hope you don't confuse the new people who came to this forum looking for a great Fighter build. This is a battle cleric/self heal build who may if well played be able to pull off being 2nd hitter to a real tank at great expense to his own cleric abilities.

Impaqt
11-01-2007, 05:57 PM
Oh because earlier you were saying you wished you had a real heal spell that doesnt fail...
Anyway I hope you don't confuse the new people who came to this forum looking for a great Fighter build. This is a battle cleric/self heal build who may if well played be able to pull off being 2nd hitter to a real tank at great expense to his own cleric abilities.

Which I will have come Mod 6.

This build, If played well, as you put it, can pull off more than just 2nd hitter.

BUpcott
11-04-2007, 02:39 AM
Riot, please get your numbers straight, this is Battle cleric build # 293, where have you been?? :)

Maldini's DPS Fighter build, or my dwarven fighter variant http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=126168 would pulverize your poor soul Impact. Doesnt matter HOW you play this toon, I dont see how you could dominate in DPS in most parties or heal appropriately. You never PUG you say?? Sounds like you are scared to get out there and play your toon. Lets face it, without your guildies protecting this build, it would fold quite easily. You are a severely limited fighter and a severely limited cleric. Level 20? When's that going to happen, when there's 12 people left in this game?? Get real.... I have liked your comments in other threads man, but you aren't being credible here dude. But have fun, thats what the games about..

Yes your min/max will do great in battle. And surprisingly so does Impacts, and the kicker is his build is far more self sufficient than yours. I must say though it is kind of a backwards compliment trashing his build than saying so long as you have fun. But meh...

sigtrent
11-04-2007, 03:09 AM
Maldini's DPS Fighter build, or my dwarven fighter variant http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=126168 would pulverize your poor soul Impact. Doesnt matter HOW you play this toon, I dont see how you could dominate in DPS in most parties or heal appropriately.

I think what a lot of folks don't quite get is you don't need to dominate DPS or healing or anything else in a party. What you need to do is kill monsters and stay alive in relatively equal proportions. Killing monsters is actually pretty easy and doesn't require hyper specilization, neither does staying alive. It's rather easy to incorperate both elements into a build.

It isn't really hard to make a build, give it max prime stat, almost max secondary, take feats all focused on one thing and call it good. Personaly when I looked at your build its almost a wana be barbarian. All those focus and spec feats are duplicated by rage and then some. Nothing wroing with it exactly but it's not especialy versitile, something that fighters are especialy suited for.

Folks that decide they must say how much better X build is are pretty much howling at the wind. His build does what it does better than yours. Yours does what it does better than his. The truth of the matter is that most poeple are running builds that are not nearly as good as either.

I've got a Figter 7 Cleric 5 Ranger 2 and I out DPS about 80% of the pure fighters and barbarians I play with by virtue of aggressive play and having a build that is more than just maxing Str and calling it good.

Borror0
11-04-2007, 03:20 AM
Having a build that is more than just maxing Str and calling it good.

Indeed, and I agree, max DPS fighters are currently Barbarians wannabes.
Now, if they'd had a bunch of DPS feats, we wouldn't say this.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-04-2007, 03:33 AM
Folks that decide they must say how much better X build is are pretty much howling at the wind.

I know full well how key it is to work as a team, and everybody who parties with me know how stringent I am about it. However it was Impact who stated that his cleric wasn't a 2nd hitter in most parties hes in. I was merely pointing out that theres no way he can be #1 in kill count with the majority of fighters I see in this game. Im sure Impact is a great team player and I'd love teaming with him. I respect his knowledge of the game but just called him out on that one remark.

Sig, my builds are about variety not min/max. My gameplay, as are many that I choose to play with, are about fairplay and teamwork. I enjoy the game and think its the best out there, and hate plat spam like the rest of the good folk. DPS is just one facet of the game, Id be nothing without my clerics and casters and rogues and bards, its all about teamwork. So Sig you are wrong to assume Im uni-dimensional. I expected more of you than that. (Specializing in 23 different weapon types is not versatile!? Having greater banes (and other situational weapons) isnt versatile?? I prefer them to Vorpals, which are the polar opposite of a versatile weapon) I get HUGE DPS with this Maldini variant, but its always within the confines of my parties abilities, and I strive to have everyone maximize their own abilities in every party I lead, that to me is variety, and creates the most fun for everyone in the party, and isnt having fun the whole point Mr Sig?

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-04-2007, 03:46 AM
Indeed, and I agree, max DPS fighters are currently Barbarians wannabes.
Now, if they'd had a bunch of DPS feats, we wouldn't say this.

That is funny I must admit. What exactly is a "Barbarian wannabe?" Most top players in the game agree that gameplay is superior to a blanket statement like yours. Fighters have plenty of feats to make them superior to Barbarians, but guess what, Barbarians have feats to make them superior to fighters. Everything (every item and every spell) in the game is situational, you just try to make your toon as usefull in as many situations as possible. I have a Barb and like him. I like my fighter better. He hits as hard as just about any barb and I outkill plenty of barbs with my fighter build. It's not the build that makes the player, its the player that makes the build.

Borror0
11-04-2007, 03:55 AM
I like to see the advantage in any build, there is always... but in this one.

Honestly, what does your fighter have over any barbarian?

The Barbarian's got much more Str than you while raging! +10 in fact, nothing can let you catch this.

Blunt focus? Mere difference.
I'd not say if you'd have a paladin splash, but I don't see here. Sorry.

I don't mind you saying how clueless I am on this one, I'd even appreciate it.
I'd like to know what I'm missing, because I tried to see.

Now, don't get me wrong. That fighter is not a gimp, he does his deal in a quest... but less than a barbarian would do.
The build doesn't make the player, but a good player will always perform better with a better build.

Ghoste
11-04-2007, 05:35 AM
Meh, using a greater bane weapon to outkill a barb has nothing to do with your build, nor with how you play your character - that's all about the gear. The time to brag about outkilling a barb is when you and the barb had the exact same weapons.

But I agree, it's important to play your character well.

The thing I like about the kind of build this thread is going for is that it's not, in my opinion, half a character.

What I mean by that is there are so many fighters and barbs who can hit really hard, but how valuable are they really to a party without a healer watching their back? To some people, that's a fair enough trade off. They feel the damage and killing they are doing more than makes up for having the 6th party member not participate in the fight.

As far as my own personal style of play though, it is much more effective for me not to have to worry whether or not someone else is watching my health bar. I would rather have that 6th person trying to kill stuff and working on quest objectives.

But I realize that is something that comes down to how you play your character. Sometimes you will have that 6th person in the party who doesn't like to play aggressively, who won't be very effective fighting stuff anyways. Or sometimes you have the ultra aggressive barbs or fighters who are smacking the snot out of everything at the expense of not being able to keep an eye too often on their own health.

What I'm saying is this is my kind of build. You can group with any kind of party. It may not kill stuff as quickly as the strongest melee, but it can still hit hard, recover well without a healbot, and go at it for the long haul. And best of all, characters like this don't need to sit around for an hour with an lfm for a cleric.

Borror0
11-04-2007, 08:59 AM
eaten by cube

Watch out bro, there are people quicker than on the report button. (This emans, I didn't report you, but another could. This is how it works, don't insult people here... only gets you infraction points.)


It doesnt matter if you have +10 strength more than I do, raged. I still outkill most barbs. There are barbs that outkill most fighters. Fighters have more versatility, more ways to kill monsters and protect himself (barbs are not exactly known for their ac!).

Flash news: Two-handed fighting means you've got AC = to ZERRO in Gianthold, changes nothing in the end.


While specing in slashing and bludgeoning, I can dominate in the use of 23 different weapon types. I specialize in more situatons than you do. There is a plateau in your strength, (where a higher number doesnt always guarantee the kill is yours), as there are in many numbers in the game. You may have more strength, but if I'm holding a greater bane weapon to your average weapon.

Two things: Build vs build, not gear vs gear please.

You've got 23 Greater bane? Congratz. you'd switch them over to your barbarian and, assuming he is well built, he'd outkill your fighter, period.

Higher numbers does not guarantee the kill is yours. In fact, killcounts are not the best unit of DPS we could have... but it's all we have. you could get lucky and deal the last hit really often, you don't know. So, even if "higher number doesnt always guarantee the kill is yours", it does increase your DPS.

I rather not lead the killcount but deal lots of damage then to do lots of kills but have less contributed. On my ssorc, I often weaken the mobs with a spell or two, but I often end up letting the melees finishing the mobs to avoid wasting mana on that 10% HP left... but I did do the 90% first... but them melees get the kill



Barbarians are not better than fighters simply because they can rage. Even if u kill harder (on paper) you would die quicker (on paper.)

Die quicker? Why, the barbarian's got more HP than you, that's just stupid to stay!

What do you mean? He draws more aggro? So what, everything is dead within a few hits anyway. You'd get the same damage than him, so you won't out surive him. You got Greater two-handed fighting, so you're grabbing as much aggro than him... but he kills faster.

Now, maybe you've played with some sort of bad barbarians, possible. But good player vs good player. Barbarian wins anytime.


Meh, using a greater bane weapon to outkill a barb has nothing to do with your build, nor with how you play your character - that's all about the gear. The time to brag about outkilling a barb is when you and the barb had the exact same weapons.

True.


What I'm saying is this is my kind of build. You can group with any kind of party. It may not kill stuff as quickly as the strongest melee, but it can still hit hard, recover well without a healbot, and go at it for the long haul. And best of all, characters like this don't need to sit around for an hour with an lfm for a cleric.

This is, indeed, the strength of a battle cleric.

Now, what you say about having a baby-sitter... we call that an healbot. they are not taking most advantages of their character. A battle cleric is, as long as he can also heal his party members... and that takes a lot of skills. There is too few with enough skills to play that kind of cleric. We are already short on cleric in Stormreach, if we'd only have bettle clerics... we'd be in trouble!:eek:

Now, if you say that the cleric with maxed Wisdom casting CC and Destruction while healing our ass is a baby-sitter, I'll disagree.

PS: I do not have the skill to play a battle cleric that can keep a party alibve... yet. I'm not bragging about my skills or anything of the kind, but there are a few players that can pull this off, to those, you have my admiration. I hope I'll get to that level one day.

Slayer918
11-04-2007, 10:15 AM
Now, what you say about having a baby-sitter... we call that an healbot. they are not taking most advantages of their character. A battle cleric is, as long as he can also heal his party members... and that takes a lot of skills. There is too few with enough skills to play that kind of cleric. We are already short on cleric in Stormreach, if we'd only have bettle clerics... we'd be in trouble!:eek:


I have to disagree... If ALL melees and clerics were battleclerics we would have, IMO, much more effective party make ups... 3-4 battleclerics 1-2 casters throw in a rogue or bard and that group gonna get really far I think... what I think this build is is a FIGHTER... if you were to take those little icons away from the healthbars and you had another cleric in Impaqt's party I bet that cleric might just think to himself "damn that might have been the best fighter I have ever grouped with, barely had to heal him at all!"... if every melee was a battlecleric every melee would have self healing and there would be no need for a healbot/babysitter w/e you want to call it...

Borror0
11-04-2007, 10:28 AM
I agree, however, if there'd be only one melee class to play the game would be boring, wouldn't it? ;)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-04-2007, 03:08 PM
Flash news: Two-handed fighting means you've got AC = to ZERRO in Gianthold, changes nothing in the end.
Two things: Build vs build, not gear vs gear please.
[LIST=1]
You've got 23 Greater bane? Congratz. you'd switch them over to your barbarian and, assuming he is well built, he'd outkill your fighter, period.

I will never convince a proud Barbarian who's better at getting kills. Nor should I. Most fighters beat barbs in kills in DDO. The reason is because an average player can play a fighter easier. There are more feats and more protection available to him. There are very few properly fitted barbs in DDO in my opinion, and those few are very very good, and some are friends of mine :) In pen and paper you are 100% right, barb outkills fighter every time, all being equal. But that doesnt happen in DDO. And we need to create characters to fit the party's needs. Turbine has done a great job in this area. Theres lots of variety and it favors the fighter class in my opinion, IN THIS GAME. Many PnP rules dont apply here in DDO because of some intentional bloating of the numbers which is necessary in order to make DDO work in real time, and I see well equipped fighters beat well equipped Barbs all the time (and vice versa).

You want Barbarian weaknesses? Here are some for ya... How much will save do barbarians get with rage? What about the spells that require a reflex save? You won't have improved uncanny dodge all the time and you can always get hit by surprise. Finger of death, PK, and disintegrate are all spell checks. What about Chain lightning, fireball, cone of cold, earthgrab etc.? Those are all reflex saves that you really can't rely on improved uncanny dodge because monsters can use it all the time and you really don't know when they will use it.

My final point is this. You are too linear in your thought process. It happens with the best barbs and fighers in the game, when DPS comes up, YOU included. DDO is not as linear as many think. There are variables, and those variables are favorable to a fighter in more situations than a barbarian. However, who CARES what class is better? I prefer a GOOD Barb to a bad fighter anyday, and vice versa. The player DOES make the build. And good players can always find a spot in my parties.... and yeah, you are one of them.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-04-2007, 03:27 PM
Now to get this back to the thread's intentions, I like your build and ideas Impact, so I'd probably like your gameplay. I'd hire you into my party in a hot flash, but I'd also be looking for a more capable healer in a pug group. Your build is every bit as important as a pure barb or pure fighter or pure cleric in my honest opinion. I just get queezy when I hear battle cleric say they are #1 in kills in most parties, because in practice, I havent seen it work nearly as many times as i've seen it fail, so I had to call you out on it. However, a good party works together, and your knowledge of the game would keep you alive and add invaluable service to any party that stays together and helps each other out.

Impaqt
11-04-2007, 03:57 PM
Now to get this back to the thread's intentions, I like your build and ideas Impact, so I'd probably like your gameplay. I'd hire you into my party in a hot flash, but I'd also be looking for a more capable healer in a pug group. Your build is every bit as important as a pure barb or pure fighter or pure cleric in my honest opinion. I just get queezy when I hear battle cleric say they are #1 in kills in most parties, because in practice, I havent seen it work nearly as many times as i've seen it fail, so I had to call you out on it. However, a good party works together, and your knowledge of the game would keep you alive and add invaluable service to any party that stays together and helps each other out.

OK, Now that I've calmed down a bit, let see if I can respond without getting Infraction points.

I have this to ask of you Mr god.....

Where do I claim to be exclusively a Primary Fighter/DPS for a Group?

Where do I claim to be Primary Healer?

Where do I say I do not Pug this Character?

I went back through my responses in this thread and cant find em..... I say that I can heal... If need be.... I say that I can put out a lot of DPS.... I can....I say that I can be a Primary fighter in a Group... If NEED be..... I say that I carefully choose the Pugs I join, and never misrepresent the build.

Seems to me you looked at the build as assumed how I play Eyeam without reading any of my commentary in the thread.

I Solo on this build a LOT. That was the original Intention of the build.... To see how much I could do... Its evolved to much more than that and I enjoy playign this character quite a bit. Yes, I an anxiouly awaiting Level 16 so My Heal Scrolls wont fail, but that never stopps me from Attempting to use one if me or a party member are in need of a heal.

IMO, You offered nothing constructive in your assesment of my build. why people feel the need to so this is a mystery to me. What are you trying to prove coming into a build thread, Trashing the build, insulting me, and Ripping on my Guild?

have a wonderful day.

Impaqt

Borror0
11-04-2007, 04:16 PM
You are too linear in your thought process. It happens with the best barbs and fighers in the game, when DPS comes up, YOU included. DDO is not as linear as many think. There are variables, and those variables are favorable to a fighter in more situations than a barbarian.

My point was Barbarians's go better DPS...
Better Will saves...
Similar Relflex saves.. but better vs traps...
Better Fort Saves...
More HP...
Damage reduction...

What do YOU have over him? List them, I'm asking for that.

Only thing I see is that you're not depedant on your rage... but that is very minor at high levels. And you have AC +2 higher, but again, once you're past level 12 stuff... very minor. You barely have any AC.

I simply don't see the point of going pure in this case. Going paladin would make you better versus casters, dropping Blunt would allow to pick up Stunning Blow and possibly others. If you'd have put 14 Int instead of 14 Dex, you could take Improved Trip.

That is my point. No matter what fighter can, you're not taking advantages of it. That is, IMO, the problem in that build. This is why I say it's a 'wannabe barbarian'. He tries to do all of a barbarian... without trying to be a fighter. Like I said many times, THF fighter could be better if they'd had feats for it, but with the lack of currently interesting feats for 'Pure DPS' fighters.... they are, sadly, barbarian wannabe. Still effective, still playable, far from gimped, but less effective than a barbarian.

I'll also clear one thing, for the faboollionth time.

It is not because I am harsh on build that I am like this in-game. People play their build like they want, the way they want... as long as they do it well, and as long as their build doesn't consist of a 17 Cha (With items, mind you!) CC bard that doesn't use her songs... but that's a different topic. Play well, and I won't care.

THF barbarians get invites in my groups, they won't a second time if they're bad, but they always get a first try. Most of them get invites after because they are good players. I am not saying someone playing that build is a moron or whatever, I'm saying I don't the 'why not barbarian?' behind it. That is what I would like to know. 'Why not barbarian?' list the advantages in your build. I don't doubt you're a good player or that your build is bad.

I just don't see why I'd pick him.

PS: Sorry for the derail Impaqt.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-04-2007, 05:07 PM
This build, If played well, as you put it, can pull off more than just 2nd hitter.

Those are your words, are they not? If you arent a 2nd hitter you are the MAIN hitter. You got called out, not your guild, on those words. Your not beating a melee at melee, sorry, you just arent. And we both know this.


I've totally given up on Eyeam being anything other than an Emergency Healer. I wont Pug him unless there is already a celric in the group when I join.

You are also not beating a pure healer at healing. We both know this.

There are simply not enough levels in DDO at the moment to make you effective enough for my taste at either (as the primary healer or melee), and most people I think would have trouble playing your build. Thats my honest assessment. However, its only one opinion. Furthermore, as I've already said, Id invite you into my group to see what you can do, I WOULD EXPECT to be highly impressed by your toon, based on the knowledge you possess about the game, and I would expect you to be a heck of a backup healer and fighter, and thats awesome. I have nothing against YOU playing your build, its just not a beginner or a recommended build, in my opinion, for this stage of DDOdom. I think we all want to see level 20...

Final note, I will not be dragged into any more arguing, I think I've made my point clear. I'm a fan of your posts but ya got called out, so deal with it! I still like ya. I would never trash you, your guild or this thread, but I will call anyone out on unrealistic claims. I personally feel, after ribbing you on your claim, that you have a good utility build for the proper player... and I see nothing wrong with that.

Impaqt
11-04-2007, 05:38 PM
Those are your words, are they not? If you arent a 2nd hitter you are the MAIN hitter. You got called out, not your guild, on those words. Your not beating a melee at melee, sorry, you just arent. And we both know this.

Yes, those were my words.. I said I CAN be a Main fighter... I've NEVER stated the build was designed for that Purpose.




You are also not beating a pure healer at healing. We both know this.

Then why did you "Call me out" onMy Healing capabilites?:rolleyes:


There are simply not enough levels in DDO at the moment to make you effective enough for my taste at either (as the primary healer or melee),
Excellent..... Again, where did I ever claim this build was designed to be either?


and most people I think would have trouble playing your build. Thats my honest assessment. However, its only one opinion. Furthermore, as I've already said, Id invite you into my group to see what you can do, I WOULD EXPECT to be highly impressed by your toon, based on the knowledge you possess about the game, and I would expect you to be a heck of a backup healer and fighter, and thats awesome. I have nothing against YOU playing your build, its just not a beginner or a recommended build, in my opinion, for this stage of DDOdom. I think we all want to see level 20...

So why not just say you dont think its a good build for new/unskilled player instead of Tearing apart the build? This build does not contain a Single piece of Raid Loot or even a required +6 Stat item... The only thing that can be remotely considered "Uber" are the ChaosGuards.. ands thats Just 2AC.... I think for someone who wants to experiment with Soloing, this is a great build... Again, I dont say anywhere in this thread that I think this is the ultuimate new player build..... You keep putting works in my post that are nowhere to be found.



Final note, I will not be dragged into any more arguing, I think I've made my point clear. I'm a fan of your posts but ya got called out, so deal with it! I still like ya. I would never trash you, your guild or this thread, but I will call anyone out on unrealistic claims. I personally feel, after ribbing you on your claim, that you have a good utility build for the proper player... and I see nothing wrong with that.

Perghaps if you dont want to be "Dragged into arguments" in the future you wont START them.

I still dont see where you "Ribbed" me on any of my Claims. You flat out "Called me out" On things I never said.

Good day sir.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-04-2007, 05:42 PM
...

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-04-2007, 05:45 PM
My point was Barbarians's go better DPS...
Better Will saves...
Similar Relflex saves.. but better vs traps...
Better Fort Saves...
More HP...
Damage reduction...

What do YOU have over him? List them, I'm asking for that.



You are stretching on the better will saves and reflex saves. Both fort saves are high enough to be considered (high). Guess I cant teach another chest beating Barbarian that this game IS NOT LINEAR! On paper you win, IN GAMEPLAY EITHER CAN WIN. There are too many variables, and I prefer the additional feats and AC a fighter gets. Im sure you are a heck of a good barb, so dont try to figure out how you can make a fighter better at doing what you want it to do. "You" obviously cant. But thats ok, Barbarian is what you do good. Fighters have our ways however to be the dominate kill force in the party, if thats whats needed in a given quest. We get more feats than ANY class, including Barbarians. We can use armor to better protect ourselves, you have to multiclass to do that. We get more kills by staying alive longer, and that ratio changes based by items and gameplay. Its about having fun, and thats what I love about DDO. The dungeon graphics are linear, but thats IT... gameplay is the dominant force in Ebberon, and I can play my fighter to survive where you fail, and vice versa. Its not who's better, but how we can better play our toons to the parties needs. Hate discussions about DPS, all Barbarians are NOT better than all fighters at getting kills. Its gameplay that matters.

This is why some Barbs get a bad name, you chest pounding Barbs force yourselves into talking about kill counts and DPS (thats all ya'll are known for after all :),) and not enough about being more well rounded (via feats and equipment) to a party. That's the job of a Fighter! You are a great player, but this is my opinion and the opinion of many DDO players tired of hearing about kill counts and DPS... just play the game.

Slayer918
11-04-2007, 11:51 PM
You are stretching on the better will saves and reflex saves. Both fort saves are high enough to be considered (high). Guess I cant teach another chest beating Barbarian that this game IS NOT LINEAR! On paper you win, IN GAMEPLAY EITHER CAN WIN. There are too many variables, and I prefer the additional feats and AC a fighter gets. Im sure you are a heck of a good barb, so dont try to figure out how you can make a fighter better at doing what you want it to do. "You" obviously cant. But thats ok, Barbarian is what you do good. Fighters have our ways however to be the dominate kill force in the party, if thats whats needed in a given quest. We get more feats than ANY class, including Barbarians. We can use armor to better protect ourselves, you have to multiclass to do that. We get more kills by staying alive longer, and that ratio changes based by items and gameplay. Its about having fun, and thats what I love about DDO. The dungeon graphics are linear, but thats IT... gameplay is the dominant force in Ebberon, and I can play my fighter to survive where you fail, and vice versa. Its not who's better, but how we can better play our toons to the parties needs. Hate discussions about DPS, all Barbarians are NOT better than all fighters at getting kills. Its gameplay that matters.

This is why some Barbs get a bad name, you chest pounding Barbs force yourselves into talking about kill counts and DPS (thats all ya'll are known for after all :),) and not enough about being more well rounded (via feats and equipment) to a party. That's the job of a Fighter! You are a great player, but this is my opinion and the opinion of many DDO players tired of hearing about kill counts and DPS... just play the game.

You claim you have more feats but lets look at how your feats compare to what a barbarian gets...

Toughness... this is the 1 count it 1 feat you have a barbarian cant recreate... but he will more than likely have more hp than your 398 (although both would be healthy numbers and plenty): Advantage push both have plenty of hp IMO

7 feats for weapon/focus/specilization a barb doesn't have this but he has rage +10 str... so he gets +5/+5 (+5/+7 on 2-handers) on ALL weapons to your +2/+4 on slashing and +2/+2 on bludgeoning... who's more versitile in weapon selection? - you can get +2/+2 if fighter str puts you to an even number: Advantage barb

IC slashing... most barbs take this, O and crit rage: Advantage barb

IC bludgeoning... all bludgeoning weapons are 20 so you get 19-20 and a barb gets 18-20: Advantage Barb

THF, ITHF, GTHF: Most barbs take these: Advantage push

PA: He's got it, AND power attack enhancements: Advantage barb

Borror0's point is that fighters can use there feats to push them to or past a barbarian's DPS, Stunning blow being the major point, however you didnt... you used your feats to try and give yourself the versitility a barb has but it is impossible... you have 23 different weapons you can use to full effectiveness... the barb has those same 23 weapons + piercing weapons

If you want to argue that a fighter has better versatility because he has higher AC then you get into a realm of someplace where a barbarian may or may not want to go... its each individual's opinion as to what is better pure DPS, or lower DPS and moderate AC, or lowest DPS and high AC... and I don't see how your build can have too high of an AC... no CE... no dodge... which means the 2 things seperating your build from a barbarian are A: you may be lawful and thus have +2 from a chaosgaurd (+1 if he has ethearel bracers) and +2 from no rage... so +3/+4... you can both use +5 MFP (and no a barb wont have to multiclass at all for this)... you can both use armor mastery (dwarven and daggertooth belt)

I have no doubt that you reutinely beat barbarians in kill counts (I do it too on my fighter all the time), I have no doubt you are a great player, I have no doubt you play your character to its fullest (or even beyond where people believe) BUT in a game like DDO you have to take out player skill AND equipment to compare what characters are... If you were playing those barbarians and they were playing your character would your fighter still win out in kills? If you had rolled a barbarian instead of a fighter would your character have more DPS and more weapon selections... yes... its the sad truth but barbarians win in DPS... you can claim that barbarians aren't that good because the game isn't linear... and its not... but I fail to see how your fighter w/ 8 base wisdom, no saves feats, or even dwarven spell defense could even have a chance to have a will save worth mentioning... at most you have what +3 reflex save over the barbarian (if he started w/ 8 dex)...

You have said you have a greater bane for whatever monsters your facing... what keeps the barb from using the EXACT SAME EQUIPMENT you do... You can say that the player makes the build... but if any 1 person was to roll 1 character either fighter or barbarian and they want maximum DPS they are best off going barbarian...

I don't have a barbarian... I have a DPS fighter... so if anything I'm biased AGAINST barbarians and yet I still think they are superior

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-05-2007, 12:25 PM
Borror0's point is that fighters can use there feats to push them to or past a barbarian's DPS, Stunning blow being the major point, however you didnt... you used your feats to try and give yourself the versitility a barb has but it is impossible...

Last quote I'll give about this, since this isnt the thread's intent. Great guess Slayer. Yes, this build IS Lawful Good, in fact, so I can wear Chaosguard. You also go a long way to highlight my point. On paper, barb wins the DPS war, but you cant use PAPER to play the game, therefore you CAN’T rule out gameplay OR other details BESIDES DPS, because there are many non-melee factors that do contribute to DPS (a.k.a. there IS NO DPS without LIFE!)

Great thing about fighters is that not only do we get an AC edge such as heavy armor and Chaosguards (Barbs can argue ALL THEY WANT that AC is meaningless, not getting hit IS another factor acutely related to DPS), but we have JUST ENOUGH DPS to come AS CLOSE AS WE NEED to Barbs DPS on paper. If you build your fighter to maximize STRENGTH, CON, TOUGHNESS, take feats and enhancements to maximize damage in the weapon types you want to focus on, and search for a varied weapon set - and my choices do include quality greater bane weapons (among others of course) - you can stand next to just about ANY BARB in this game, and you have every chance to beat his kill count, and without having to worry about clicking the heck out of Rage (AND WITHOUT A SINGLE RAID ITEM). THIS IS WHERE gameplay comes into play, and I think its why we ALL play DDO, for the gameplay.

In finishing, Im sticking to my guns. In no way do I believe the Barbarian class is superior to the Fighter class to a party looking for a melee character. It’s just too easy and inexpensive to build and play a First Class fighter to overlook the fighter class, and its worthiness to a party. Want melee? Just look for talented Fighters OR Barbarians, because both classes have some great talent that’s fully capable of keeping your party alive.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-05-2007, 04:30 PM
I think for someone who wants to experiment with Soloing, this is a great build...

Ahhhh, we finally find common ground! This would be a perfect build for soloing, if you are selling this as a solo-only build (plus backup healer/melee in a guild or good pug). It sounds like a fun situational build, for an advanced player (IMHO).

Personally, I play DDO though for the comradery, I like playing with new people (and guildies and regulars of course) every night, and feel the VoIP (Voice-Over IP..) is what made DDO stand out from all the other MMORPG's. This game wasnt really designed to solo, it was built from the ground up to be a MMORPG... Massively multiplayer online role-playing game.

I will apologize for calling you out, because this debate is foolish and got way off topic. I have been a fan for a long time of your posts, they are usually informative and sometimes quite entertaining. However, you surely know that when you put your build up, it will be scrutinized, and you will get responses, pro and con. For me, your build is stretched too thin over the 14 levels we currently have to play with, for a beginner or even typical build. However I know you can pull it off with style, just from being a fan of your posts, and I STILL would love to see this build at work.

I don't think we truly disagreed on much here, but boy did we make a LOT of noise! :)

adrinor
11-05-2007, 06:42 PM
This thread has gotten out of hand in my opinion.

The_Mighty_Cube
11-07-2007, 04:54 PM
This thread has gotten out of hand in my opinion.

Agreed. Back on original topic folks.

Cold_Stele
11-08-2007, 12:02 PM
My non-controversial 2c worth -

I've leveled up a bunch of Fighters, also a Pally, Cleric, Rogue and a Battle Cleric (but not a Barbarian).

I deleted my Battle Cleric for two reasons - the lesser was my vague uneasiness that I was sub par in two different roles rather then excelling in one (which is what I aspire to).

The main reason though is that the GAME ENGINE plain doesn't favor Clerics in a melee role. Compared to the other classes they're slooooow - they move like they're wading through molasses. They don't have the skill points for Spot, Jump, Tumble and Balance so they can't quickly and efficiently engage mobs. They just feel plain cumbersome to play.

Maybe splashing more melee levels, or taking melee at level 1 speeds em up, I dunno. I do know that when I play my Cleric it's a pain in the a$$ keeping up with the rest of the party, let alone getting to the front line.

It just seems like an uphill struggle to me - using player skill and a sound build to try and offset a disadvantage placed upon you by the game engine... My latest Cleric has 18 starting WIS and I'm just gonna nuke the hell outta mobs with spells when I get tired off healing and want some kicks - that's the new version of an offensive Cleric IMO.

Discussing the game engine brings me onto Barbs - I don't deny for one minute that the game (in particular the current Enhancement system) made Dwarven Barbs kings of DPS in theory. I just don't see it in practice. What I see is a minority of Barb players who are uber. The rest of them - well, the rest of them are a little bit sucky tbh.

Now the problem isn't the Barbs' build - they got 5 feats and I'm sure 99% have the same starting 18 STR, PA, Imp Crit and the 3 THF feats.

Where are the others going wrong then? Are the Enhancements easy to screw up? Are they not making effective use of Rage? Is it something in the game engine giving them a disadvantage? I have no idea - if I had more time I'd maybe roll one, I just personally find a class where there's practically zero choice in race, stats and feats a little dull...

Impaqt
11-08-2007, 12:13 PM
How did my build become a discussion on Barbs? I dont even have any Barb Levels in my build..... The Barbarian Questions should go to teh Barbarian forum.

As for the "Slow" COmments. I have not found this to be the case at all... On this Build, or my 13/1 Cleric/Paly Battle cleric.
Spot is WIsdom Based... My clerics have better spot skills than almost any character thats not a Rogue... I have no trouble Spotting mobs quickly. +13 Jump Boots and a Jump Clicky are all I need to bounce around when need be. and Tumble... Well, If your going the Spring attack direction and Taking Mobility as a feat It can be helpful I guess. Otherwise I dont see tumble haveing any effect on melee capabilities at all. Most of my builds incorporate balance. Again, Class have very little to do with it. a handful of points in Balance and a nice pair of boots and you can get up just fine after being knocked down.

The Game Engine doesnt descriminate against any class or build as far as movement goes. Barbs get a 10% boost to base movement speed. EVERYONE else is created Equal. My Dwarven Cleric build moves just as fast as an Elven Ranger.

Cold_Stele
11-08-2007, 01:14 PM
How did my build become a discussion on Barbs? I dont even have any Barb Levels in my build..... The Barbarian Questions should go to teh Barbarian forum.

Man you just love the Cube don't you? The forums are a place for open adult discussion of the game - you seriously need to drop the attitude bud. You have absolutely no right to rule what I can and cannot say in my posts.

In discussing Barb (which was an afterthought to my post discussing THIS build) I was only addressing points raised in THIS thread.

It's also been pointed out that you're posting a Cleric in a Fighter forum, but let's just let that one go, eh?

But to address you're points - sorry if you personally haven't noticed Clerics are inherently slower, but that doesn't make it any the less true.

Battle Clerics have 1 skill point - they can't max Balance and Concentration. Jump boots take up an equipment slot and still only give a mediocre Jump score - a melee toon jumps around constantly and shouldn't be defendant on equipment to fulfill a basic role. The same goes for Balance - you're surely going to want to wear Striding Boots 95% of the time?

1 rank of Tumble gives the ability to not have to rely on FF items when you want to drop quicker or save an equipment slot.

Battle Clerics can't use one of the nicest pieces of melee loot available without suffering major drawbacks - Madstone Boots.

I don't claim that these are major issues - but the sum of them all hamper Battle Clerics.

As for your comment that EVERYONE is created equal in the game engine - you need to roll some level 1's (on another server if you don't have the slots) and jump about in the box room in the tutorial quest. Look how slow a cleric is, how much damage they take when they jump, etc. Like I said 'wading through molasses'.

The devs have said that other aspects of the game were put together with no reference to the intellectual property but for simple aesthetics - like the difference in swing speed between greataxes and greatswords - it makes no sense, it's unfair, but it's still there none the less...

Impaqt
11-08-2007, 01:45 PM
Man you just love the Cube don't you? The forums are a place for open adult discussion of the game - you seriously need to drop the attitude bud. You have absolutely no right to rule what I can and cannot say in my posts.
Sorry if My attitude offends you when you make an off Topic post Right after the cube comes to the forum asking people to Stay on Topic. This tread has nothing todo with Barbarians. THe Discussion on Barbarians was stopped. The Cube asked people to get back on topic and you disregarded the cubes request.


In discussing Barb (which was an afterthought to my post discussing THIS build) I was only addressing points raised in THIS thread.
The Cube askeds us to get back on Topic, You blatantly ignored that request.
It's also been pointed out that you're posting a Cleric in a Fighter forum, but let's just let that one go, eh?
My reasons behnd that have also been made clear.

But to address you're points - sorry if you personally haven't noticed Clerics are inherently slower, but that doesn't make it any the less true.
Are you on Thelanis? Lets do an experiment. Eyeam vs. any build you want to bring except Barbarian. We'll make a lap around the marketplace, Follow the leader like and see what the diference is inthe end.
Battle Clerics have 1 skill point - they can't max Balance and Concentration. Jump boots take up an equipment slot and still only give a mediocre Jump score - a melee toon jumps around constantly and shouldn't be defendant on equipment to fulfill a basic role. The same goes for Balance - you're surely going to want to wear Striding Boots 95% of the time?
Or Haste Pots, Or a Striding Ring. just like everyone else. THats certainly not a cleric thing.
1 rank of Tumble gives the ability to not have to rely on FF items when you want to drop quicker or save an equipment slot.
one POSITIVE rank of tumble. Once you put on heavy armor, your falling damage mitagation is moot. Fact is, you can fall almost any distance in this game without taking any damage is you use solid bjects to your benefit.
Battle Clerics can't use one of the nicest pieces of melee loot available without suffering major drawbacks - Madstone Boots.
Neither can Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, WIzards, Sorcs, Bards or even Barbarians.... Remeber Lesser Restor posts act like Wands now..... Theres no way to dismiss barbarian fatique while Madstoned. Certainly not a limitation of only Clerics.
I don't claim that these are major issues - but the sum of them all hamper Battle Clerics.
As Stated, these limitiatins can aply to most of the classes. Many Fighters and Barbarians also go with an 8 INT and have the same amountof Skill Points..
As for your comment that EVERYONE is created equal in the game engine - you need to roll some level 1's (on another server if you don't have the slots) and jump about in the box room in the tutorial quest. Look how slow a cleric is, how much damage they take when they jump, etc. Like I said 'wading through molasses'.
I've created dozens of level ones..... I see no difference unless I have a level of Barb..

The devs have said that other aspects of the game were put together with no reference to the intellectual property but for simple aesthetics - like the difference in swing speed between greataxes and greatswords - it makes no sense, it's unfair, but it's still there none the less...
Theres one thing I agree on. Great Axe vs. Greatsword has been documented. Everyhting else has not.



Comments within......

Cold_Stele
11-08-2007, 02:14 PM
I'm on Sarlona so can't race ya - but race a guildy, ask a guildy cleric about their experiences (I have) or wait to see what other forum users say... hopefully we'll be able to convince you.


Sorry if My attitude offends you when you make an off Topic post Right after the cube comes to the forum asking people to Stay on Topic. This tread has nothing todo with Barbarians. THe Discussion on Barbarians was stopped. The Cube asked people to get back on topic and you disregarded the cubes request.


Are you serious? You do realize the Cube wasn't threatening to lock this thread cos someone starting discussing Barbs in here right? It was the constant rude, aggressive and borderline offensive arguments that were going back and forth between posters.

Not to mention the apparent need to argue every single point raised which doesn't agree with a person's individual philosophy. As demonstrated above.

Impaqt
11-08-2007, 02:19 PM
Agreed. Back on original topic folks.

Requested Post be Closed.

Twerpp
11-08-2007, 02:26 PM
Requested Post be Closed.

and filed in the round basket labeled "Battle Cleric Builds" :D

BUpcott
11-08-2007, 03:23 PM
Having ran with this build many times on my clr, barb, pally, and sorc I can say that he is effective as which ever roll he takes on. For the people that say he is limited as a clr, to you I see bah! By end game there is only a few quest I prefer to have a full clr in the group simply because there isn't a need for someone sitting there healing you. Those that say he can't be a fighter to you I say bah as well he can hit most anything...and doesn't need someone to heal him and can help help other! *GASP*

It's nice to see people who try build other than well I am a barb so max str and con for me, or I am a ftr max str for me. Good Job Impaqt and nice build!

sigtrent
11-08-2007, 03:53 PM
However it was Impact who stated that his cleric wasn't a 2nd hitter in most parties hes in. I was merely pointing out that theres no way he can be #1 in kill count with the majority of fighters I see in this game.

We probably play in different kinds of groups. I lead a very casual style guild and when I pug its usualy not raids but mid level grinders and or TS. So I tend not to play with the cream of the crop but witht he average joe. And while the Vagabonds are first rate, they tend to play with casual folks a lot as well so it is quite possible Iam gets #1 kill counts agaisnt pure fighters and barbarians. I do it myself more often than not and my main is probably only capeable of 60% of the DPS of a pure combat build. Playing well and using the right weapons play a big part of it. Believe it or not many fighters and barbarians don't use power attack. Can be a shocker but I'm guessing actualy only a minority do among the general player base.


Sig, my builds are about variety not min/max.

Didn't mean to say they wern't, and certainly wasn't trying to single anyone out. But I see folks ranting about how their build would leave some other build "in the dust" when all they really have is an extra +2 attack/damage when all is said and done. Big deal, it generaly just washes out to luck and aggressive play.



(Specializing in 23 different weapon types is not versatile!? Having greater banes (and other situational weapons) isnt versatile?? I prefer them to Vorpals, which are the polar opposite of a versatile weapon) I get HUGE DPS with this Maldini variant, but its always within the confines of my parties abilities, and I strive to have everyone maximize their own abilities in every party I lead, that to me is variety, and creates the most fun for everyone in the party, and isnt having fun the whole point Mr Sig?

Fun is the point, yes. But you or some others I didn't pay close attention came across saying he was "gimped" in some way. Gimped means you are seriously lacking, aka you can't play your role effectively. Nothing fun about calling a build gimped. I think your approach is great, I think his is great too. Different builds, different abbilities. You can use a wide range of weapons effectively, I really like that. But you can't use a heal scroll or cast a blade barrier and he can. Different strengths, neither of them gimped in any way.

Personaly I like characters that can switch up their strategy. In ways your build is like that, but I usualy try to be a bit more "fancy" about it. I've posted a couple of my builds before, generaly they really arn't as good as the ones I do for other people because I often change my mind about their focus half way to level 14 and I don't personaly have the patience to re-roll. My point is that on paper they would probably look gimped, but playing them, they are fine so long as they don't try to do what they arn't good at.

I was doing POP the other night with my main. The chips were down in the final fight (no cleric in the party) and the one resser, the bard was dead. I stoped attacking, scroll raised the bard. threw a Mass Aid to give folks some breathing room, threw about 3 cure serious to folks about to die while the bard got up and opperating and then wen't back to killing the WF boss. Now if I were a hyper damage specced character I might have had him down already but I'm not. Either way we won, it is just a question of doing whatever your character happens to do to beat the encounter.

What tends to not work is when you try to do something you stink at. For instance while doing scale runs I had my DPS rogue. Fun character, does great damage and does traps very well. But he was the DPS king of the group and he only has some 140HP and mid to low 30s ac when dual wielding. Needless to say if the dragons or giant decides he needs to die, he dies pretty fast. Agaisnt normal mobs they die before the agro is a big issue, but with red or purple names I just can't tank. But if you do the most DPS in the group and those encounters area much about DPS you have to give it what you got. The clerics just couldn't keep me standing and it was wipe city. I swapped to my fighter who can self heal a bit and is much more durable and it was a brease. It wasn't that my rogue was a bad build, he just got stuck in the wrong role due to the party composition.

Impaq: You are coming over pretty harsh and defensive in this thread. I don't think folks meant much disrespect, we all like to ****er and discuss build merits.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-08-2007, 03:56 PM
Requested Post be Closed.

Wow. And not World of Warcraft either. Sorry, I dont think battle cleric is just gonna be a valid build until we can get to level 20. Even you admit you've built him for level 20.

You can try to insult Cold Steele and I all you want. I agree with Cold as do 95-98% of the game. But you can play any build you want to, and I'd still let you into my party. Only one way you get bounced from my party, once you've been accepted.. and thats a bad attitude. Looks like you have one leg out of the copter... hope ya have a 'chute! :)

Dont get me wrong, I just look for fun, good hearted players. I will work with ANYONE who wants to improve their gameplay and I learn from time to time myself, even after so many hours logged. In my parties, we keep it fun and we keep it serious. The only goal is to get the job done while havin fun! Just dont be insulting to me or the people I play with. That's what I use my eject button for....

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-08-2007, 04:07 PM
Yeah, believe me it got a little embarrassing having to be on the opposite side of your opinion Impact, but it was only a differing opinion. Remember it was me who said Id STILL let you into my party.... and see what you can do. I never directly attacked YOU, just addressed my concerns with your build. Sigtrent sounds articulate and I must say I agree with just about everything he is saying.

Who wants to see arguing in a forum? This thread has become just like a boxing match, and who comes to a forum to see a boxing match, thats what the pvp arenas are for... I think most of us use this great forum to learn something, and improve our gameplay. And I think we can all agree on that.

Impaqt
11-08-2007, 04:11 PM
Yeah, believe me it got a little embarassing having to be on the opposite side of your opinion Impact, but it was only a differing opinion. Remember it was me who said Id STILL let you into my party.... and see what you cant do. I never directly attacked YOU, just addressed my concerns with your build. Sigtrent sounds articulate and I must

See what I cant do? Nice.....

THe Cube sure is takinga long time closing this....

sigtrent
11-08-2007, 04:23 PM
I don't mean to play faves here. I like Impaqt lots having played with him a couple times and usualy he doesn't get so keyed off in threads. I think Leslie started of a bit harsh here and all in all it got off on the wrong foot.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. If you are about to post something that MIGHT **** someone off, consider re-wording it with a bit more understanding. I love a good heated argument myself but generaly it only serves to take the cart off the rails.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-08-2007, 04:42 PM
See what I cant do?

Haha, that was a typo, and now properly updated. Impact, you cant be that miffed about others offering their opinion? Who cares man, its just a game... Sigtrent, again i think you are right... should have been a little easier but im just a dwarven fighter, we tend to be low to the ground and have trouble with politically correct responses, dang those charisma checks! :)

Ninetailfox
11-08-2007, 05:07 PM
Well, Ignoring all the bad blood that has gone on before my post I'll try and post some contructive feed back. I think the build has definate potental to do well. However I think it may suffer from an identity crisis. Now before you get mad let me explain. You adversise it as a fighter that can heal, but in reality you are a healer who can fight some. Most of your feast seem to go to increasing the cleric aspect. All I saw was improved crit and toughness for "melee" feats (I may be forgetting some). You seem to have resolved the to hit hurdle of melee to hit, however it relies on several spells to get there on the same level of a more traditional melee build, while not a problem would make me a little uneasy. So while you are able to hit, your damage will not be that of a more traditional build.

There is also the question of weapon choice. Going dwarf and taking power attack, along with using great axes I could see this build starting to shine for damage output. Your AC is kind of sub par for main tanking, so you'll never be a main tank. You can off tank VERY well though. So as an off tank I would increase your damage ability and not worrying about AC so much concentring on power attack and 2 handed weapons for damage. Let the high AC melee builds go in first and gain agro, then cut loose on damage while they keep agro.

I would have maybe went warforged instead of dwarf though. You have access to a better weapon, the great sword (better crit range than axes especially with improved crit). You also have blade sworn transformation, plus every thing your build has on the cleric/paladin side. You get a host of immunities as well. And I would concentrate on the two handed fighting aspect to take advantage of the power attack and high strength, and the only cleric feat I would take would be Empower heal most likely.

Also with the feat selection, I would have stayed away from extend and went with a more combat focused feat. Your goal was to be a fighter that can heal, you already have healing capability with empower healing and heal, and shouldn't need on focusing so many enhancements to spell points, Your roll was not to be healer right? Also you have a high strength to help with damage and to hit but are not able to take any feats that could make use of that, some of the two handed fighting ones, taking stunning blow, or able to take combat expertise (because you rely on spells for your to hit) to open up improved trip.

Now I'm not saying your build is not good or could not perform well. It's just that it may not be performing the role that you think it is. Like I said before this is a great build for a HEALER that CAN FiGHT. With a little tweeking I think you may be very close to a wonderful build for what you are wanting. Well that's my $0.02 so take it or leave it. Oh, and best of luck with you on the build. Don't let some of these others get to you.

Impaqt
11-08-2007, 05:47 PM
Well, Ignoring all the bad blood that has gone on before my post I'll try and post some contructive feed back. I think the build has definate potental to do well. However I think it may suffer from an identity crisis. Now before you get mad let me explain. You adversise it as a fighter that can heal, but in reality you are a healer who can fight some. Most of your feast seem to go to increasing the cleric aspect. All I saw was improved crit and toughness for "melee" feats (I may be forgetting some). You seem to have resolved the to hit hurdle of melee to hit, however it relies on several spells to get there on the same level of a more traditional melee build, while not a problem would make me a little uneasy. So while you are able to hit, your damage will not be that of a more traditional build.

There is also the question of weapon choice. Going dwarf and taking power attack, along with using great axes I could see this build starting to shine for damage output. Your AC is kind of sub par for main tanking, so you'll never be a main tank. You can off tank VERY well though. So as an off tank I would increase your damage ability and not worrying about AC so much concentring on power attack and 2 handed weapons for damage. Let the high AC melee builds go in first and gain agro, then cut loose on damage while they keep agro.

I would have maybe went warforged instead of dwarf though. You have access to a better weapon, the great sword (better crit range than axes especially with improved crit). You also have blade sworn transformation, plus every thing your build has on the cleric/paladin side. You get a host of immunities as well. And I would concentrate on the two handed fighting aspect to take advantage of the power attack and high strength, and the only cleric feat I would take would be Empower heal most likely.

Also with the feat selection, I would have stayed away from extend and went with a more combat focused feat. Your goal was to be a fighter that can heal, you already have healing capability with empower healing and heal, and shouldn't need on focusing so many enhancements to spell points, Your roll was not to be healer right? Also you have a high strength to help with damage and to hit but are not able to take any feats that could make use of that, some of the two handed fighting ones, taking stunning blow, or able to take combat expertise (because you rely on spells for your to hit) to open up improved trip.

Now I'm not saying your build is not good or could not perform well. It's just that it may not be performing the role that you think it is. Like I said before this is a great build for a HEALER that CAN FiGHT. With a little tweeking I think you may be very close to a wonderful build for what you are wanting. Well that's my $0.02 so take it or leave it. Oh, and best of luck with you on the build. Don't let some of these others get to you.

I already swapped out Improved Mental TOughnes for Power Attack, and I also have Weapon Focus:SLashing in the build.

Extend is very nice to have on this build. First, 9 Minutes f Resists is a little low. 18 gets me shrne to shrine in most cases. Its also very nice for my Divine Power, Divine Favor, and Recitation. Not to mention other Buffs liek Fom and Deathward.

I actualy did Take Stunning blow on him for a while after I got the Tenderizer fromt eh Abbot.... Didnt care for it much myself... ENded up swapping that for Power attack no that I think about it.

I'm actualy going toswap out Empower Heal with Maximize soon as well. THat wil helm my Blade barriers come level cap raise and my Healing via CUre XXX Spels.

THanks for your input. Nice to see some folks can critique the build without trashing it.

Styles
11-09-2007, 01:22 PM
clerics are suppose to heal, if you want a melee character, why dont you just make one? nothing worse than thinking your inviting a healer to the group and he runs up past the fighters.

BUpcott
11-09-2007, 01:34 PM
clerics are suppose to heal, if you want a melee character, why dont you just make one? nothing worse than thinking your inviting a healer to the group and he runs up past the fighters.

Nay, clerics have the ability to heal, and are best at it. This doesn't mean they cannot do battle. If they were supposed to sit back and heal they wouldn't get the weapon profs that they do. Dunno if you play DnD or not. Simply watch the cleric movie in th character creation screen. "You serve our party both as a heal and a warrior, given your offensive and defensive spells." And Impaqt is pretty good about telling a group that he is not a main healer but he will heal in a pinch...but I think you might have just chimed in without reading the whole thread.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-09-2007, 02:46 PM
clerics are suppose to heal, if you want a melee character, why dont you just make one? nothing worse than thinking your inviting a healer to the group and he runs up past the fighters.

Right on bro. Styles represents 98% off DDOdom. I respect that you are coming to you're guildie's aid BUPcott (its WAY cool in by book), but lets be honest, you are either part of the mainstream, or you're not. As soon as you think you are BETTER than the mainstream, you lose your integrity in my book. And ALOT of Self Described battle clerics promote this aspect. DDO is about teamwork from the ground up. Its also only 14 levels currently, and most mixed class builds are just in their infancy at level 14.

Impacts got a great situational build (as ALL battle-clerics are at this level), and no doubt he plays what he has to perfection, but he knows its a utility build until level 20. I DO give him kudos for telling people he ISNT a main healer or melee, thats the right thing to do. However, if battle clerics, by YOUR DEFINITION, continue to be THAT ignorrant to the world around them (and their opinions), battle clerics will continue to be a pariah in DDOdom.

That being said, Id like to see that changed, as I welcome all into my parties, once :). My solution? Call the build what it is, a GREAT utility build and a GREAT solo build, and work on your PR (thats public relations) :)

It IS what it IS...

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-09-2007, 03:05 PM
Nice to see some folks can critique the build without trashing it.

For the record, I personally never trashed the build or the player, just the sales pitch. You are a great player and you have a great guild. I consider you an important contributor to the DDO forums, and are read by many, including myself.

Impaqt
11-09-2007, 03:13 PM
For the record, I personally never trashed the build or the player, just the sales pitch. You are a great player and you have a great guild.

FOr the Record, the "Sales Pitch" for the build was, is, and always has been


OK, Eyeam was orginaly posted under the "Cleric" forums... I'm putting him here in the Fighter Forums now though. This build is a Fighter that CAN Heal. I have run this Build all the way to Cap and he has been a Blast to Play. The Solo Capabilites are awesome, The Versatility he adds to a Party is evident in the build.

Which, when all was said and done is what you decided this build was all about.....

I'm really tired of going back and forth on this.. Evidentaly, the Cube wont close it for some reason..... If/when it does get closed, I invite anyone who has questions or comments on the build to PM me directly rather than posting here.

sigtrent
11-09-2007, 03:37 PM
clerics are suppose to heal, if you want a melee character, why dont you just make one? nothing worse than thinking your inviting a healer to the group and he runs up past the fighters.

If you want your fighter to be healed why didn't you make a battle cleric?

Basicaly both questions are silly ones. The class isn't called "Healer" or "Medic" it's Cleric and the build in question is both a cleric and a fighter so it does a bit of both. How hard is that to fathom?

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-09-2007, 04:58 PM
If you want your fighter to be healed why didn't you make a battle cleric?

Basicaly both questions are silly ones. The class isn't called "Healer" or "Medic" it's Cleric and the build in question is both a cleric and a fighter so it does a bit of both. How hard is that to fathom?

Good point Sigtrent. Maybe you should take a look at the definition of the term Cleric, yourself, by a few of the elite D&D mediums...

Wizards of the Coast: Guidelines By Class, By Monte Cook.

Want to be a cleric?
* Choose human (Unlike other classes, you can’t afford to have a bad Charisma.)
* Put your best ability score in Strength, your second best in Wisdom. Do not have a Constitution penalty. Don’t worry about Dexterity, your heavy armor will negate a big bonus anyway.
* Multiclassing? Don’t. It’s probably not worth losing a level of cleric spells.

Warcry DDO:
Cleric
* The Cleric serves as the group's primary healer, diviner, and defensive specialist.
* She can hold her own in a fight, but generally focuses on healing party members.
* The cleric's spell selection can greatly affect her role - she can select from a range of healing spells, damaging spells, and defensive or offensive buffs. Clerics are masters of divine magic, which makes them especially good at healing and destroying undead creatures. An experienced cleric can even bring allies back from the dead. Clerics are also adept in the use of simple weapons and armor, since armor doesn't interfere with devine spells the way it does with arcane magic.

Ten Ton Hammer: Zed
Whilst clerics in DDO are still the primary healing class they offer much more versatility to a group. They are capable of buffing the entire party’s combat skills or other important ability scores, crowd control and even some powerful offensive spell casting. Plus, clerics can enter front line combat, hiding behind shield and heavy armour to aid the fighters in bringing down their foes.

D&D Wiki
Clerics are a primary caster class with a strong selection of useful spells, but their healing and buffing powers are the most valued in a typical party. With a strong selection of arms and armour, and respectable attack bonus, Clerics can also make capable front-line tanks. This role is often necessitated by healing allies in the fray, as most of their spells have limited (touch) range.

These are the experts fellow battle clerics, in the "Greater-Turbine DDO World" of Dungeons & Dragons. This is how we are taught to view the Cleric class. Therefore, this is what we are expecting when you get your Battle Cleric involved into a party. All respectable D&D mediums regard Clerics as the primary healers. Even the D&D Wiki, while celebrating a cleric's front line melee capabilities, will remind Battle Clerics that you also need to heal your party.

I love to see a cleric move out of the uber boring task of healing party members (I know you BC's will like that comment!), but keep in mind that a world without healers is a world without life. I love our hard working clerics in DDO, they are an AMAZING breed. I simply preach teamwork, and I see too many Battle Clerics INSIST anyone who needs healing is a gimped toon. This line of thinking is just not accepted in most of the DDO or PnP (pen & paper) worlds.

I think we all love a GOOD Cleric. BC's dont need to get offended... for if you are party minded.. you are our friend.

And Sig, if YOU don't wish to heal, maybe you should become a pure fighter. :)

sigtrent
11-09-2007, 05:18 PM
I love to see a cleric move out of the uber boring task of healing party members (I know you BC's will like that comment!), but keep in mind that a world without healers is a world without life. I simply preach teamwork, and I see too many Battle Clerics INSIST anyone who needs healing is a gimped toon. This line of thinking is just not accepted in most of the DDO or PnP (pen & paper) worlds.


Wasn't it clear I was responding to someone essetialy asking why would a cleric want to fight with a question of why would a fighter want to be healed?

What you say, I don't entirely disagree with, but you responding to my statement comes out as a contradiction to the argument that there is value to a character that is good at both fighting and healing. As to experts, I'm one of those too, so are you. Just because someone writes for a web site doesn't make them any more authoritative on strategy than a typical player. The proof as they say is in the pudding not in the pontification.

Battle clerics are good, strong, usefull builds. That's the bottom line really. Statisticaly you can't really argue it to much. They can heal very well, they can fight very well. Clearly the mere fact that they must sometimes stop doing one, to do the other means they can't possibly do either as thuroughly as someone who is exclusively doing something. But while they are doing whichever they are doing they do it quite well.

People are odd sometimes. "Its fine for a cleric to cast blade barrier, I like that. It helps kill monsters." but at the same time "Its bad for a cleric to try fighting, he's not as good at it as I am." What's up wtih that? Either way they are giving up some mana in some shape or form to help party offense and that ultimately means you finish the quest. I think a lot of this nonsense boils down to folks jockying to show their build or thier class is best at X and a bunch of epeen ego stroking/defending.

You can do comparisons, just bust out the calculator and you can compare the abbilities of one build vs another in any given area. Truth is, for Attack/Damage hard core battle clerics only come up a tad shy of fighters of a similar nature. They usualy can't go for the extreem DPS of a TWF or THF build but they have a ton more defense than those builds do and can heal themselves and others as where mr DPS can't do jack if the party is dying around him. Doesn't make DPS guy bad, it's just not his build to heal, as where it is part of Battle Cleric Boy's profile.

This best of breed mentatlity puzzles me, but in real life I'm all about versatility. I'm not the worlds greatest programmer (or I'd be coding right now), but I can cook a mean steak, or wow an audience in a play, or run a super fun D&D game. Sure I could have dedicated to only one, but life would be a lot duller for me and what I gained in one area I'd lose out in another. DDO isn't so different.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-09-2007, 05:47 PM
1. I think a lot of this nonsense boils down to folks jockying to show their build or thier class is best at X and a bunch of epeen ego stroking/defending.

2. Truth is, for Attack/Damage hard core battle clerics only come up a tad shy of fighters of a similar nature.

3. I'm not the worlds greatest programmer (or I'd be coding right now), but I can cook a mean steak, or wow an audience in a play, or run a super fun D&D game.

You are one of the great minds in DDOdom. You may not be a great programmer, but you could certainly run for office of this great Country, after all how hard would it be to beat the clowns clawing for office in both parties!?

You also make a great spokesman for the Battle Cleric build in DDO, maybe the most understanding between your abilities and what people may expect your abilities to be. It took brass circles for you to admit much of this ballyhoo is nothing but ego-bashing and booty-repair (not a bad enhancement:).

Im also happy you can see that a cleric can't compete with the better DPS builds. That is just pure honesty and fact. You can be everything you WANT to be in a cleric, as long as you remember that when someone in your party gets hurt, you are the Chairman of the Board. If there is no bard or pali or others healing, you are on TV baby. Its Your Show.

I'd party with ya anyday...

ErgonomicCat
11-09-2007, 06:20 PM
2. Truth is, for Attack/Damage hard core battle clerics only come up a tad shy of fighters of a similar nature.




Im also happy you can see that a cleric can't compete with the better DPS builds. That is just pure honesty and fact.


That's a pretty big jump from "only a tad shy" to "can't compete"

Personally, I'll take 95% damage, and healing, over 100% damage....

This debate won't ever end, but it gets worse when people interpret things for their own ends...

The real test would be to get 4 people, all good representatives of their class. One melee dps'er, one healbot, 2 BCs.

Pair them up in groups. And run quests. See who finishes first, takes the least damage, uses the least pots/wands, etc.

BC and BC. Melee and BC. Melee and Heal. Heal and BC. Then compare.



But lets be honest, you are either part of the mainstream, or you're not. As soon as you think you are BETTER than the mainstream, you lose your integrity in my book.


I guess that really sums it up. In the anti-BC view, if you're not doing what the majority things is right, then you can't be right. And honestly, isn't that whole point of build posts? To show that you think you have something outside the mainstream, better than average?

Hell, isn't that kinda the point of life? To show that you can be better than average? I know that if I were to be told "Man, you're just really mainstream, you know? You're not better than anything." I wouldn't take it as a compliment....

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-09-2007, 06:40 PM
Truth is, for Attack/Damage hard core battle clerics only come up a tad shy of fighters of a similar nature. They usualy can't go for the extreem DPS of a TWF or THF build

Apparently you neglected to read the rest of Sigtrents sentence :) Sigtrent fits a battle cleric in with the average melee at very best.

You are NOT CLOSE in DPS output with a pure barbarian or fighter that focuses his feats and enhancements in DPS. If you believe so, you need to go to school jack. You can break out House Denieth's own Super-Duper Califragialistic-Expialidocious calculator, you will NEVER come up with a battle cleric that can OUT-DPS a pure fighter or barbiarian DPS build. You CAN compete with a poorly built or newbie melee builds, maybe even a good melee build if you choose to do THAT MUCH tanking/swinging if your build is almost all melee levels, with a splash or two of cleric. Then again, thats not a battle cleric, its a fighter/barbarian with the ability to do very limited healing. That is NOT a cleric build that can support an entire party in a challenging quest.

I think we both know that. I know just about everyone I play with knows that!

Impaqt
11-09-2007, 07:45 PM
Eyeam can out DPS any Fighter or barbarian in the game
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When their Soulstone is in my Backpack :)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-09-2007, 10:31 PM
Finally got ya crackin jokes! That took a while, I must admit.

Yeah, I dont recommend anybody make it hard on the clerics. As it is the cleric class is by far the most expensive build to play in DDO. I will donate plat or wands/scrolls to a good cleric, even in a PUG group. I think its the right thing to do. Just like giving blood in real life... its good for the community.

sigtrent
11-10-2007, 01:19 PM
Ya, I gess to be more specific, a BC is going to match up pretty well to a sword and board fighter in offensive potential. A tad shy in attack bonus possibly but probably right up there. But if the fighter goes for TWF or THF specilization its much harder for the BC to build to match it due to limited feats and BAB feat windows. THF might be doable, but then your eally have to abandon any casting enhancement and the fighter can pile on the support feats for power attack etc without breaking a sweat where the cleric has some pretty limited options and will end up lagging somewhere. Barbarian can do it easy because rage can make up any ground lost in other feat picks or enhancements. Cleric spells go some distance but not as far as rage does in making up that ground. Bards can also bridge the feat gap wtih thier buffing songs, but bards are squishy by nature.

But like I said, most characters don't actualy quite live up to their potential. There are more non-builders in the game than folks that obsess over builds. Lots of poeple just take whatever seems cool to them when they level up. So a well made battle cleric will probably feel like they are as good (and they probably are) as most of the fighters and barbarians in the game. And I can't really think of any monster in game a good battle cleric can't reliably hit or can't bring down in fairly short order.

Borror0
11-10-2007, 05:18 PM
I don't see why people are still arguing over this.

Does he has decent DPS? Yes.

Does beats a fighter to it? No.

Does he bring more to the table than plain DPS? Yes.

Is that enough for you to make it valuable? Up to each one of us.

See, no issue at all!

Durack
05-19-2008, 10:35 PM
Tke a peek at thi tell me what ya think


Battleknight build.
Warning to ya about this build-it
is not for the lazy gamer as it require attention to
detail and a bit of micromanagement to run at optimal
levels within realtime gameplay. The premise behind
this build was simple-utilize the cleric platform to
build an intimitank from. This accomplished the
following objectives I wanted to meet within a tank.
Ultimate surviveability(you are a full-fledged tank
with the ability to full heal yourself),
self-reliance(any buff you desire or ask for from
others outside the group the build has save haste),
flexibility of gameplay(can be played in a number of
different ways-frontline tank-support role-main
healer-some scrolls would have to be used to fill that
role), soloability, and the ability to control aggro
and utilize my hp/ac for the safety/betterment of
groups I join(intimidate is a huge lifesaver/resource
stretcher when used properly). This build really is
pure tank and only cleric by icon. It is played
exactly like a paladin type build and utilizes its
mana pool for himself solely to optimize
surviveability. Anytime you utilize your mana pool
for outside sources other then buffing/healing
yourself you surrender a portion of the builds
surviveability.

Begin build as 1 fighter to max intimidate skill
applicability. Then I went 2 lvls of Paladin.
Remaining lvls are 11 cleric granting full heal
casting ability. Ending build at 14 is 11
clr/1fighter/2paladin. Ending build lvls for 20 are
11clr/6fighter/3paladin. Next lvl increase will grant
1 more lvl of paladin(garnering you disease immunities
and fear immunities as well as open up first line of
aura enhancements) and 1 more lvl of fighter granting
fighter str and armor masteries enchancement.

Beginning stats/endgame stats:

Str 16
+2 1750 favor tome
+3 lvl increases
+6 str gloves
27/28 ending build str
* I used a +1 tome in the interim to keep the str on
an even number. It was a difficult decision to use
the 1750 tome on str because it left it at a 27(odd
number) until such time you can farm a +3 tome from
the reaver raid(doable just going to take sometime but
I wanted at least the probability of hitting the 28
eventually within the build. It will just take some
farming and reaver is pretty simple to knock out
religiously. Plus even if you dont get the +3 tome
eventually lvl cap will open up fighter str 1 when you
take the next fighter lvl when they raise lvl cap.

Dex 13
+1 tome
+6 dex boots
20 endgame dex

Con 12
+1 tome
+1 dwarven enchancement
+6 con belt
20 endgame con

Int 13
+1 tome(at creation!-need the additional skill points)
14 endgame int

Wis 12
+1 wisdome tome
+3 cleric enhancement via AP's
+6 wisdom neck
22 endgame wisdom

Cha 12
+1 tome
+1 cleric cha enhancement via AP's
+6 cha ring
20 endgame cha

Creation will see you taking lvl 1 fighter and the
toughness and weapon focus: slashing weapons feats.
Creation skill points look like this. Max points into
intimidate first then place as many points into
concentration. Remaining points then are maxed into
balance. Anything left over dump into jump(dont think
I had any skill points after maxing intimi,
concentration, balance). Enter world eat a +1
intelligence tome granting you 4 skill points at lvls
rather then the 3(this is absolute must for the
build). Level 1 enchancements I believe were:
Dwarven armor mastery 1
Fighter intimidate 1
Fighter toughness 1

Level 2 Paladin taken
Skill points
2 complete skill point in intimidation
1 into concentration
(reason your putting 2 into concentration this lvl is
due to the fact that at lvl 20 balance skill will be
left at .5 skill point doing you no good at that time
so its a valueable point early in the build into
intimidation).

Enhancement lvl 2:
Dwarven faith 1

Level 3 Paladin taken
Skill points
1 into intimidation
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
Feat selected: Combat expertise
Enhancements lvl 3:
Fighter armor class boost
Dwarven con 1
Dwarven toughness 1
fighter critical accuracy 1

Level 4 Cleric taken
Skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
Enchancements lvl 4:
Dwarven axe attack 1
Cleric energy of the zealot 1

Level 5 cleric taken
Skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
enhancements lvl 5:
Dwarven armor mastery 2
Cleric Wisdom 1

Level 6 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
Feat selected: Extend
enhancements lvl 6:
Dwarven toughness 2

Level 7 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
enhancements lvl 7:
Dwarven toughness 2
Cleric cha 1

Level 8 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
enhancements lvl 8
Cleric energy of the zealot 2

Level 9 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
Feat selected: Quicken spell
enhancements lvl 9
cleric wisdom 2

Level 10 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
enhancements lvl 10
Dwarven armor mastery 3
Dwarven toughness 3

Level 11 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
enhancements lvl 11
axe attack 2

Level 12 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
Feat selected: Improved critical slashing weapons
enhancements lvl 12
Dwarven toughness 4

Level 13 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
enhancements lvl 13
cleric energy of the zealot 3

Level 14 cleric taken
skill points
1 into intimidate
1 into concentration
.5 into balance
enhancements lvl 14
cleric wisdom 3

Endgame gearing:

Head-heavy fort helm from tapestries
Neck-+6 wisdom neck
Trinket-Kardins eye
Back-swap slot if needed +5 protection/+6 cha
cloak(use the cha cloak when you must boost intimi via
gear on ring slot, you'll lose 1 ac cuz your casted
shield of faith is only +4)
Rings +6 cha ring/disease immunity ring of greater
false life. Swap in intimi ring for the cha ring when
warrented/needed. You'll find you'll make alot of
checks at standing intimi unmoded through gear on
normal and hard. Elite content will require a swap
out of gear typically.
Wrist-chaosgardes
Goggles-blindness ward
Gloves-+6 str
Boots-+6 dex

*I would recommend minimum 4 planar girds for this
build. Skill checks and ability to perform does rely
on the GH somewhat. I run with 4 on tritonn and have
found it never to be a problem keeping up GH even in
the longest of runs.

Notes on the build:

The beauty of this build is its utility and what
little you give up to gain that utility over a more
traditional tank build. You lose to a traditional
pure tank 3 BaB however, you make that up via the
enhancements of axe attack 2 and slash spec. Given
you'll be keeping extended divine power, divine favor,
and recitation on you at lvl 14 your ability to hit
far exceeds a traditional tank type build. Divine
power grants you parity with tanks BaB divine power
gives you an additional 3 and recitation and
additional +2 to hit. So when compared head to head
you have the +to hit ability of a fighter with a 36
str. For your giving up the 3 bab you gain the
following utility:

Ability to full heal via scrolls/mana casting
30 point resists
Energy protections
true seeing
SR 23
Rez ability
Freedom of movement
Nightshield(magic missles thing of the past for this
tank)
protection from evil
Ability to buff temp hp's to around 100 or so(divine
power, aid, false life, greater hero, hero's feast)
Deathward
ability to cure any ailment that strikes you

Just picture a tank running with these buffs 24/7 and
giving up absolutely nothing for the ability to do so.
These utility buffs dont even begin to consider the
offensive casting ability the divine side can bring to
the table. Command, greater command, searing light,
soundburst, blade barriers, symbols of pain/fear, many
more. Granted you will only be using your offensive
casting side in rare dire emergencies and you're DC
checks wont be the highest in the world but at least
you have the option when the **** hits the fan as
opposed to any other tank in the game.

Endgame stats look like this with the gearing I laid
out.
HP's right around 340
Sp's 800ish
ac 56
+to hit first swing 32
saves fort:36 reflex27 will 28
100%fort
sr 23 at all times due to spell
bab 11
1 LoH for 64(nice stabilizer when you fail that
concentration check)
approx 22 concentration standing no item
intimi of approx 25 standing no item
balance +14-you gotta get up fast if you're a
frontline tank and in full plate and tower shield I
dont stay down long and usually make my balance check
first roll.

Build must focus on using +3 or better type dwarven
axes. I prefer to stick with greater bane type
weapons myself as if dp/df/recitation drop in middle
of a fight I can still manage to hit content even on
elite. The build quite honestly has had no trouble
hitting even the highest of ac mobs i've met in game
thus far even when im totally debuffed. If you ever
do run into that i always have a destruction dwarven
axe loaded in my weapons sets so i can quickly drop
the targets ac.

That is about it for the build if you have any
questions lemme know. I've had immense fun playing
him and have found him really to be the ultimate tank
build so far. He far surpasses both squire and
thorran in surviveability and in my book that is what
a tanks main job is. Ability to lock aggro and take a
beating without folding like a house of cards.

Have fun and remember your mana is your own as you are
a new breed of tank in the game. The battleknight!

P.S. you'll catch some **** for this build from folks
as they dont understand it whatsoever-its a totally
new and fresh approach to a build. Just ignore em and
show them the capabilities of exactly what you can do.

Borror0
05-20-2008, 06:49 AM
Not sure if resurecting this threads good idea.