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Talson
08-06-2007, 09:10 AM
I was asked to repost Selgar over the weekend so here's the build and a little history...

Nexiv my drow was orginally an 8F/2P build that added Rogue in at levels 11 and 12 for Evasion and UMD. Eventually she went 8F/3P/3R but the only skill she'd really maxed was UMD. Once I hit 1750 favor I was currious to see what could be done with the level split as a 32 point buy dwarf that took Rogue at level 1 for the additional skill points and thus Selgar was created.

Selgar is an 8F/3P/3R evasion hybrid that can tank or switch to DPS depending on what you want to do with the build based on quest and party make up. The builds UMD is high enough to rez the cleric in a pinch and self buff from scrolls and wands. The builds open lock is high enough to pick locks in gianthold normally within a couple of attempts.

Paladin was taken to level three to add +2 AC bulwork of good and +2 resistance Resistance of good and divine grace (Fear immunity and disease immunity are minor perks). Rogue was taken to three to get additional skill points, 2d6 sneak attack, and Evasion. Fighter was taken to level eight for Greater Weapon Focus.

32 point buy Starting stats:
(Str 16, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12) (switching con to 14 and Dex to 14 may work out better)

Current stats:
Str 28 (+6 item, +1 tome, 3 stat increases, Fighter Str II)
Con 16 (+6 item) (favor tome to 18) (eventually will re-add Dwarf Con II for 20)
Dex 24 (+6 item, Rogue Dex I, Tome +1)
Int 14
Wis 10 (+2 Intricate field optics)
Cha 20 (+6 item, +1 cha tome, +1 Pal Cha I)

HP currently 301 (add favor tome for 315)

AC with shield:
10 Base
10 +5 Mith BP
7 +5 Shield
7 Dex
2 Aura
2 Chaos gaurds
5 protection cloak
1 Dodge
3 chattering ring
3 Barkskin (pot)
= 50 AC

AC with CE
= 55 AC

Feats:
Iron will, Weapon focus Slashing, Dodge, Toughness, SF UMD, Imp Crit (slashing), Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Trip, Greater Weapon Focus

Equipment slot allocation:
Helm +6 Cha | Cloak Protection +5/ Resistances
Gloves +6 Str | Ring +4 Resitance ring (need to get Chattering ring)
Necklace +6 Con | Ring 25% striding
Belt H.Fort | Boots +6 Dex
Bracers Chaos Guard | Trinket Battle coin (need to get another kardin's)
Googles Intricate Field optics

Maxed Skills:
UMD (17 from skill, +5 Cha, + 3 skill focus 25) +3 golden cart, +1 rabit gloves 29 (Greater Hero +33)
Open Locks (17 from skill, +7 Dex, +13 open lock gloves) +37 +5 tools 42 (Greater Hero +47)
Intimidate (17 from skill +5 Cha, +13 item) 35 (Greater Hero +39)

Action points:
Paladin Resistance of Good I (2)
Paladin Bulwark of Good I (2)
Paladin Charisma I (2)
Rogue Dexterity I (2)
Fighter Strength I (2)
Fighter Strength II (4) 14 points

Dwarven Toughness I (1)
Fighter Toughness I (1)
Dwarven Toughness II (2)
Fighter Toughness II (2)
Dwarven Toughness III (3)
Fighter Toughness III (3)
Dwarven Toughness IV (4) 16 points

Dwarven Armor Mastery I (2)
Fighter Armor Mastery I (2) 4 points

Dwarven Axe Attack I (2)
Dwarven Axe Damage I (2)
Dwarven Axe Damage II (4) 8 Points

Dwarven Tactics I (2)
Fighter Strategy Trip I (1)
Fighter Strategy Trip II (2)
Fighter Strategy Trip III (3) 8 points

Fighter Critical Accuracy I (1)
Fighter Item Defense (1)
Dwarven spell resistance I (1)
Dwarven spell resistance II (2) 5 points

Level progression: with Fighter bonus feats in orange

1 Rogue Iron will
2 Fighter Weapon focus slashing
3 Fighter Dodge, Toughness
4 Paladin
5 Paladin
6 Paladin Skill focus UMD
7 Fighter
8 Rogue
9 Fighter Imp Crit, Combat Expertise
10 Fighter
11 Fighter Power Attack
12 Fighter Improved Trip
13 Fighter Greater Weapon Focus
14 Rogue

Long term level splits I'm debating 10/7/3 as a possibility for the Fighter Str III, Pal Cha II, and Pal Resistance II... Enhancements for levels 16 through 20:

15 Fighter (Two handed fighting)
16 Fighter Stat bump STR / Fighter Str III enh points 61 (Str 30) (Improved two handed fighting)
17 Paladin Fighter toughness IV enh points 65, Dwarven con (I) enh points 67
18 Paladin Dwarven con (II) 71(Greater two handed fighting)
19 Paladin Paladin Cha II Enh points 75
20 Paladin Aura xxx of Good Enh points 79 spent (Stat bump Cha)

Resistance of Good or Bulwork of Good at level 20 My guess is I'll take resistance since I'll probably favor the increased saves over AC at that level....

KelWayne
09-17-2007, 09:40 PM
Looks like a cool build to me but I've never created a hybrid so...:eek:

Just curious why this has 190 views and 0 comments, well, one now.

Anyone else care to throw in their 2 cp's?

P.S. At what level are you taking which particular class?

Talson
09-18-2007, 09:51 AM
For level progression I went with:

1 Rogue Iron will
2 Fighter Weapon focus slashing
3 Fighter Dodge, Toughness
4 Paladin
5 Paladin
6 Paladin Skill focus UMD
7 Fighter
8 Rogue
9 Fighter Imp Crit, Combat Expertise
10 Fighter
11 Fighter Power Attack
12 Fighter Improved Trip
13 Fighter Greater Weapon Focus
14 Rogue

Fighter bonus feats in orange

As for your question on additional feedback the first time I posted Selgar when I was toying with building him prior to gianthold being added to the game there were a couple pages of ideas where we discussed possible changes to evasion, would the hit points be enough, etc...

So far I'm happy I went the evasion path the AC difference hasn't been too great and at some point if I happen across Mith FP then maybe I'll debate switching in and out of light armor in the future. Hit point wise I've not felt too bad on HP but the 14 Dex and 14 con would have bought an extra 28 HP for -1 to my reflex save and minus one to my AC while fighting with two handed weapons. In the future I'll invest more in toughness enhancements to raise my HP.

If you want to Player Vs Player then I'd recomend going with the 14 con 14 dex to increase your HP.

Take it easy
Tal

Talson
10-15-2007, 01:40 PM
Experimenting with swapping some of my enhancements around...

Dropped Tower shield mastery I, II and Crit Accuracy II in favor of Dwarven Toughness IV and fighter toughness I, II.

Cons:
AC wise I'll lose one point of AC (which if I get a Dex III tome from raiding I'll recover).

Pros:
HP wise I'll gain 35 hitpoints which gets Selgar to 300 HP, Gain +2 to hit when fighting with shield since not taking the -2 to hit from Mith TS.

Impaqt
10-15-2007, 02:33 PM
Experimenting with swapping some of my enhancements around...

Dropped Tower shield mastery I, II and Crit Accuracy II in favor of Dwarven Toughness IV and fighter toughness I, II.

Cons:
AC wise I'll lose one point of AC (which if I get a Dex III tome from raiding I'll recover).

Pros:
HP wise I'll gain 35 hitpoints which gets Selgar to 300 HP, Gain +2 to hit when fighting with shield since not taking the -2 to hit from Mith TS.

Another place to Save some ACtion Points and gain Hit points would be to Drop Dwarven CON I&2 and Pick up Fighter TOughness III. You lose 1 point of Fort (Which you should have Plenty of) and gain 3 Action Points.... You actually gain one Hit point in the process too.

Hadrian
10-15-2007, 02:57 PM
This looks almost identical to the build of one of my characters. Thuric is an 8/3/3, but instead of intimidate and open lock, he has jump and balance with just enough tumble to work. Instead of SF UMD and power attack, he has power critical and iron will.

This caps his buffed UMD at around 32 for now.

The purpose of power critical is to ensure that on-crit effects don't fail often, since I have a lot of weapons that depend on them.



Starting stats were
16
14
15
12
8
12

Allowing me to reach at level 14:
28
22
22
13
14
20

With a +2 tome and +6 item together (or just a +3 tome), 24 con and 24 dex would be possible, but it's not something I am actively trying to gather.

For intelligence, I just wanted enough for combat expertise, so I started with 12 and used a tome to reach 13.

I noticed you gave your AC with mithral full plate. Do you normally wear it in favor of evasion? I have been wearing light armor. While I can only hit 53 AC self buffed to your 55, I would not trade my evasion for two more armor.

Talson
10-15-2007, 03:21 PM
Nice call on the Dwarven Con switched that out for the next toughness tier and added an Armor mastery I with extra points.

For the AC question that should be with a +5 Mith BP

5 for breastplate and +5 for a value of 10 with a dex mod of 7 for a total of 17

8 for full plate and +5 for a value of 13 with a dex mod of 5 for a total of 18

Right now I'd be really surprised if I decided to switch out of light armor....

Take it easy
Tal

Hadrian
10-17-2007, 12:06 AM
Ah. That was my mistake, then. I could have sworn that it said +5 mithral FP yesterday, and not BP. I any case, I can see the 2 difference in our AC comes from your 1 extra dex mod and chattering ring against my tower shield for a net of +2 to you.

I have a question for you about your furture levels. (It seems that you feel your fort saves are high enough already by your choices you've just described.) Are you sure you couldn't do more to fit your build by taking those levels of fighter instead?

That means two additional feats to add to your versitility, and with Luck of Heroes, you can even replicate what you'd get at level 7 paladin if you decided that it was the best choice after all. You'd lose out on one charisma point and gain a feat in this case, so depending on what you wanted the feat for, you might come out ahead this way. Say taking Iron Will for +2 will saves instead of getting to an even number for an additional +1 cha mod, or bullheaded for 2 more intimidate and 1 will save. In the case that you find the additional all saves to offer diminishing returns at that point in the game, you'd have the option to make it much more useful by changing those feats to whatever you wanted. Maybe you'd find it is better to have cleave and great cleave to combo with the THF line, and then you'd have that option open to you.

Additionally, you'd spend less AP and be able to advance further down the fighter line, possibly into some more useful options than you'd find in the paladin line aside from the two you listed.

Talson
10-17-2007, 01:15 PM
I have a question for you about your furture levels. (It seems that you feel your fort saves are high enough already by your choices you've just described.) Are you sure you couldn't do more to fit your build by taking those levels of fighter instead?

That means two additional feats to add to your versitility, and with Luck of Heroes, you can even replicate what you'd get at level 7 paladin if you decided that it was the best choice after all. You'd lose out on one charisma point and gain a feat in this case, so depending on what you wanted the feat for, you might come out ahead this way. Say taking Iron Will for +2 will saves instead of getting to an even number for an additional +1 cha mod, or bullheaded for 2 more intimidate and 1 will save. In the case that you find the additional all saves to offer diminishing returns at that point in the game, you'd have the option to make it much more useful by changing those feats to whatever you wanted. Maybe you'd find it is better to have cleave and great cleave to combo with the THF line, and then you'd have that option open to you.

I could go fighter and get +1 to all saves via luck of hero's and +1 to will via bullheaded via feats but Paladin levels and enhancements provide a little more return in my eyes. (already have iron will in the build)

My first thought was to take resistance of good and bulwork of good. I then realized I could instead take Cha II and bump my cha up one to get +1 to all my saves, raise my UMD, and raise Intimidate. Then I debated if the +1 to saves or a +1 to AC would be more benefical. Right now I'd guess that the saves will be a higher priority. Additionally lay on hands currently gives me ~50 ish HP so the additional paladin levels would help those out as well.

Though this does bring up a good question on when to switch out of fighter for a multiclass build...

For example:
Fighter 8 Feat/Greater Weapon focus
Fighter 10 Feat/Fighter Str III
Fighter 12 Feat/Greater Weapon Spec

In my case I'm not going to take greater weapon spec so I felt that Fighter 10 would make a nice break point for the last strength enhancement bump. If someone wanted to take the build in more of a "batman" direction then I could see going 10F/3P/7R etc...

Of course this could all change as new enhancements and feats are added so I'm just building with the options we currently have available and if I see something better in the future I'll change it then.

Take it easy
Tal

Hadrian
10-18-2007, 06:29 AM
The biggest problem I am having is fitting everything I need into item slots. I gave up on trying to fit intimidate when I realized that I would have to give up balance or jump or increase my intelligence, and I had no room for an intimidate item in any case. Requiring items for 5 of the 6 attributes (not int) puts a crunch on possible item slots.

Stopping at 12 fighter seems to be a good point since I do want the greater specialization feat. I have considered using two more rogue levels to max intimidate and keep my UMD at the cap. (That would make me 12/3/5.) I would give up one BAB to do this, however.

Taerdra
10-18-2007, 07:51 AM
Though this does bring up a good question on when to switch out of fighter for a multiclass build...

For example:
Fighter 8 Feat/Greater Weapon focus
Fighter 10 Feat/Fighter Str III
Fighter 12 Feat/Greater Weapon Spec


Fighter 11 is also important for Armor Mastery III and Tower Shield Master III. If you're concerned about maxing AC through enhancements, etc., then some version of F11+/P7+ works best and it becomes just a matter of how to best get there. If every drop of AC isn't that important, then you can forego those types of level splits. I think if we ever get to lvl 20 you will see a significant amount of people finish at F11/P7/Rogue2.

Talson
10-18-2007, 08:27 AM
Fighter 11 is also important for Armor Mastery III and Tower Shield Master III. If you're concerned about maxing AC through enhancements, etc., then some version of F11+/P7+ works best and it becomes just a matter of how to best get there. If every drop of AC isn't that important, then you can forego those types of level splits. I think if we ever get to lvl 20 you will see a significant amount of people finish at F11/P7/Rogue2.

I could see that as a viable split... My guess is we'll have to wait and see where the AC comfort levels go to in the future. For awhile mid 50's AC seemed to be the new mark to get to for AC at level 14. A 7-9 point jump up from 46-48 being the high AC water marks for a bit at level 12. So if AC at 20 has a 15 point jump up from where we are now that would drive the new AC standard to be in the high 60's low 70's. So then question would be how close could you get a charecter to consistantly be at 70 AC and is it worth the what you give up...

For the evasion hybrid trying to hit an AC that high would be a tricky point I could see enhancement wise having to choose multiple armor masteries, tower shield mastery III and Mith FP to really max out AC which could hamstring other enhancements...

Take it easy
Tal

Hadrian
10-19-2007, 02:08 AM
AC requirements have to level off at some point. We're reaching the limitations of items now, so pretty soon the only way to get more AC will be to get new named items that break the normal rules.

The only way to inflate armor class is to keep adding more and more dodge bonus items that can stack up or to add special named items that break the rules on item limitations. It seems like we have every other possible source of armor pretty much capped out through either buff spells or items.

Unless they start making +7 mithral full plate raid loot or something, I can't see us gaining 10 AC between now and level 20.

Borror0
10-19-2007, 02:56 AM
Better Insight bonus.
Luck Bonus.
Profane Bonus.
Sacred Bonus.

Could get us a few points. Also, better Dodge Bonus.

Maybe Chaoswards?:rolleyes: