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FrodoCorleone
08-05-2007, 01:52 PM
Am I the only one that feels that the 2-4-6 point progression for HF is out of wack? Asking a WF character to invest 12 APs to get 20% more healing comes out to be 3 levels worth of APs. I had to stop after HF I because I can't justify spending 4 APs for only a 5% increase in healing. That's hardly a blip on my barb's health bar. A change would be good for WFs and meatbags alike.

Devs, how about a 1-2-3 progression? :D

RemoJr
08-05-2007, 04:14 PM
agreed. My belief on cost-V-benefit has been:

1.) arcaine casters- nothing, use repair
2.) semi-melee(bard, cleric, rogue, ect.)- HF 1, not worth it for HF2
3.) melee focused (fighter, barbarian, ect.)- HF2, HF3 isn't worth the cost

wemery73
08-06-2007, 01:05 PM
ya they need to fix the ap cost :D

Hvymetal
08-07-2007, 07:09 AM
Aye I never go above HF II, just costs too much, rather invest in DR (which also is of dubious usefullness considering how much high level mobs hit for)

hammerstriker1
07-20-2008, 07:34 PM
and i'm right that they dont stack, correct? start at 50%, Healer's I +15%, II +20%, III +25%=75% total.

Hvymetal
07-22-2008, 07:37 AM
and i'm right that they dont stack, correct? start at 50%, Healer's I +15%, II +20%, III +25%=75% total.
Yup you are correct.

valczir
07-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Yeah, it seems worthless to go above HF I. With my monk, I'm going WF:HF I and M:IR II, 'cause HF I is way better than IR I, but HF II is the same as IR II. So HF II is a 5% improvement, IR II is a 10% improvement. Just seems natural to follow further ranks of IR and just leave HF at rank one.

Personally, I think that the bonus from HF should eventually (at tier three) net something close to a 50% bonus, which would leave us near 100% healing effectiveness, due to the high AP cost. Tier one seems about right at 15%, but tier two should be 25% or 30%, and tier three should follow suit. Teir two of HF is about as useful as a pet cricket.

Leyoni
07-25-2008, 07:24 AM
IMO HF is worthless. Other enhancements are more valuable and arcanes are much more common than clerics. Invest in wands and pots, kindly ask the arcane to top you off after the fights and hit you in a real emergency, drink plenty of pots to try to avoid the emergency and spend the enhancements elsewhere.

Or, do like many and take an arcane level for wand use and just look after yourself.

Tell me again, how does Heal work?

Castlehawk
07-25-2008, 11:54 AM
wow... you guys give WF a bad name.

Any WF melee type playing without HF3 is a liability and is IMO disrespectful of the people he/she pugs with (with your guild..perhaps another story). If you are relying on the APs to insure your toon is playable or "good" then you should look at rerolling.

Look at any high level raids or quests...and take a look at how you are being healed in game...

Ereshkigal
07-26-2008, 01:27 AM
or you could take Improved Fortification at level 9 and stop those dirty divine casters from dripping their mana pools all over you.... dirty dirty divine casters... dirty...

Hvymetal
07-26-2008, 07:22 AM
wow... you guys give WF a bad name.

Any WF melee type playing without HF3 is a liability and is IMO disrespectful of the people he/she pugs with (with your guild..perhaps another story). If you are relying on the APs to insure your toon is playable or "good" then you should look at rerolling.

Look at any high level raids or quests...and take a look at how you are being healed in game...

If an extra 5% healing is making or breaking the healers it might not be the WF that needs to reroll.......

vainangel
07-26-2008, 07:24 AM
WF pots should cost less.
Other than that, healers can help top off my WF, I can take care of myself. If you play smart, healers just maintain most of the time.

MrCow
07-26-2008, 07:34 AM
Look at any high level raids or quests...and take a look at how you are being healed in game...

I did, and the healing tends to come from myself. :p

LOUDRampart
07-26-2008, 07:37 AM
If an extra 5% healing is making or breaking the healers it might not be the WF that needs to reroll.......

Now that's a funny statement. :eek:

Arianrhod
07-26-2008, 08:30 AM
I did, and the healing tends to come from myself. :p

Yeah that's what I've seen, to be honest - it's fairly rare (at least in my experience) to find any WF over 7th level or so who's not prepared to handle a lot of their own healing (and quicker at it than the group's healer, even if they're trying to keep the WF healed, which can lead to a regrettable amount of "double-healing"). Under those circumstances, I can see where the decision about whether to invest in Healer's Friend is largely a question of how much non-arcane self-healing the WF does (WF clerics and bards might take more than the first level, if they have the enhancement points available).

Varr
07-26-2008, 09:29 AM
Lol, I have two points that argue with themselves so will be hard to say Im on one side of the fence. First point, if I understand correctly warforged are in essance metal plated wooden constructs that have some type of souls (otherplanier?) tied to them. Divine spells being able to repair the damaged souls (?) and maybe heal some of the living wood makes some sence I suppose but a 50% penalty seems more than fair. It should cost a robot alot of creation focus (eps) to become more receptive to the lords good healing ways.

Point number two, low and mid level clericing for non casting wf is awefull. Sure once clerics get to the heal spell, at level 13.........they can normaly out heal the penalty. But 1-12 it is a total burden to heal warforged and most non wf casters are focused on other things. Proud/good clerics will still heal the wf, and do so without complaining in party, but in the back of their mind that level 6 warforged barb that is not drinking many pots is driving them crazy. And woe to the poor cleric that has two wf to try and heal in a level apporopriate quest before level 13. And I dont know the percent of warforged that are self healing or pot chugging or wand providing to the caster..........it is more than 10% and less than 90%...........

So........the ap investment makes sence to me as far as a cost side goes...........and it makes sence as far as a player investment to help the support classes heal warforged.

jmonty
07-26-2008, 09:38 AM
IMO HF is worthless. Other enhancements are more valuable and arcanes are much more common than clerics.

if you don't take it at all you shouldn't expect the cleric to heal you at lower levels.

Castlehawk
07-26-2008, 11:36 PM
If an extra 5% healing is making or breaking the healers it might not be the WF that needs to reroll.......

has nothing to do with making or breaking... has to do with the sum of all parts and the dynamics that healing has in the new raid content.

....healers have enough on their plate with regards to heal scrolls, mana management and overall costs to run a cleric...

Castlehawk
07-26-2008, 11:37 PM
I did, and the healing tends to come from myself. :p


so while you are beating down the devil in the shroud... you are spending time to heal yourself? sounds like a great dps dealing...

Aesop
07-26-2008, 11:45 PM
Actually apparently a WF is perfered in the new raids to be main tank because the Arcanes can heal them regardless of the Cursed wounds or whatever it is that makes healing impossible. thus requiring fewer Remove Curse castings and not wasting as much Clerical SP

Just playing devils advocate here mind you and going by what I read


Aesop

Shima-ra
07-27-2008, 12:01 AM
Healer's freind 1 is an absolute must. Its too cheap and too good not to have it.
Unless you are wiz/sorc, its just very disrespectfull not to have it.
Its also just plain stupid not to get it. Its alot better then having 15% more hit points.
Getting healed more and faster has alot more advantages for yourself other then just saving your cleric's mana.


I personally have healer's friend 2, and I wear a +10% item when I go into tank mode with a cleric behind me.
Healer's friend 3 just costs too much.

Mhykke
07-27-2008, 12:28 AM
so while you are beating down the devil in the shroud... you are spending time to heal yourself? sounds like a great dps dealing...


wow... you guys give WF a bad name.

Any WF melee type playing without HF3 is a liability and is IMO disrespectful of the people he/she pugs with (with your guild..perhaps another story). If you are relying on the APs to insure your toon is playable or "good" then you should look at rerolling.

Look at any high level raids or quests...and take a look at how you are being healed in game...


I thought this was a necroed thread and these responses from a while back, took me a second to figure out they were recent.

So on my warforged, who has healer's friend I and uses the bracers from the hound, bringing his total heal effectiveness to 85% of a fleshy, he's still a liability?

MrCow
07-27-2008, 12:56 AM
so while you are beating down the devil in the shroud... you are spending time to heal yourself? sounds like a great dps dealing...

All of my currently played characters are capable of using Repair Critical Wands at a minimum (which can be easily mixed in with repair serious potion for decent healing).

All of my current characters have Healer's Friend I if they can't self-reconstruct via SP, because its just easier to go with the flow on mass cure spells. Any higher is overall a waste for me and a fair amount of the people I group with (I realize this may be different for other people in other situations).

If said "devil" hurts me faster than I can heal or am being healed I simply back off until the situation is fixed (or if I somehow am the main point of aggro, I get out a shield and block). No point in needless dying when I know someone can't keep me up or give me attention all the time.

Aesop
07-27-2008, 09:37 AM
what is sad though is that it is "Required" for any race classs or build to have a specific enhancement. a Barb Has to Bave Crit Rage, a Warforged has to have Healers Friend, etc... have to's should not exist in this game imo. People should not have to be cookie cutter building to be viable


Aesop

Borror0
07-27-2008, 12:52 PM
Look at any high level raids or quests...and take a look at how you are being healed in game...

hehe, I like having WF players in my raid 'cause that means they can be healed by arcanes. It has many, many, many advantages.

Borror0
07-27-2008, 12:53 PM
what is sad though is that it is "Required" for any race classs or build to have a specific enhancement. a Barb Has to Bave Crit Rage, a Warforged has to have Healers Friend, etc... have to's should not exist in this game imo. People should not have to be cookie cutter building to be viable

Aesop, whatever you do, there will always be unavoidables... it is, unavoidable.

I'm with you, but that's the truth.

Drider
07-27-2008, 12:55 PM
hehe, I like having WF players in my raid 'cause that means they can be healed by arcanes. It has many, many, many advantages.


My arcane will not heal wf.. why you ask? Cuz I'm not a healer.

Borror0
07-27-2008, 01:02 PM
My arcane will not heal wf.. why you ask? Cuz I'm not a healer.

My arcane will. Why? Because if he dies, I might not complete the raid.

PS: I only scroll them though.

Ghoste
07-27-2008, 01:18 PM
Lol, I have two points that argue with themselves so will be hard to say Im on one side of the fence. First point, if I understand correctly warforged are in essance metal plated wooden constructs that have some type of souls (otherplanier?) tied to them. No, that is how it works for non-living constructs (flesh golems, bone golems, etc). Divine spells being able to repair the damaged souls (?) and maybe heal some of the living wood makes some sence I suppose but a 50% penalty seems more than fair. It should cost a robot alot of creation focus (eps) to become more receptive to the lords good healing ways. Wizards of the Coast has been intentionally very vague about whether warforged have a soul or not. On the one hand, they can't be turned into undead, like other living creatures. But, they can be raised from the dead, unlike golems who have souls of other creatures bound to them. But no warforged brought back from the dead has ever had any memories of an afterlife like some fleshlings who have been raised have had. Also unlike other constructs, warforged do have their own god. And there's also the ghulra thing.

Point number two, low and mid level clericing for non casting wf is awefull. Sure once clerics get to the heal spell, at level 13.........they can normaly out heal the penalty. But 1-12 it is a total burden to heal warforged and most non wf casters are focused on other things. Proud/good clerics will still heal the wf, and do so without complaining in party, but in the back of their mind that level 6 warforged barb that is not drinking many pots is driving them crazy. And woe to the poor cleric that has two wf to try and heal in a level apporopriate quest before level 13. And I dont know the percent of warforged that are self healing or pot chugging or wand providing to the caster wands for the caster? Is this a joke? I guess you have to have played a warforged to know the universal rule that applies here: "any fleshling caster who accepts a wand and says they'll keep an eye on the warforged's health is lying. The only thing they will use it for is to pick their nose. Even between fights." It's ok though, I do the same thing with my warforged cleric..........it is more than 10% and less than 90%...........

So........the ap investment makes sence to me as far as a cost side goes...........and it makes sence as far as a player investment to help the support classes heal warforged. Depends on your playstyle and people you group with. There are plenty warforged out there who take care of their own health, or run with casters they know well enough to trust them for repairs. For people looking to play warforged AND want a babysitter, the enhancements are nice. For the rest...meh.
Answers in red.

Ghoste
07-27-2008, 01:20 PM
My arcane will not heal wf.. why you ask? Cuz I'm not a healer.
My warforged pure cleric is also not a healer. That doesn't stop 90% of people in the game from telling me he is.

Drider
07-27-2008, 01:25 PM
My warforged pure cleric is also not a healer. That doesn't stop 90% of people in the game from telling me he is.


I let people that assume my battlecleric is a healing cleric die. I warn them ahead of time that I'm not a healer.

Hvymetal
07-27-2008, 02:00 PM
Now that's a funny statement. :eek:As in the diference between II & III

arikka_hador
07-27-2008, 03:01 PM
So, this is a bit off-topic, buuut....

Up until recently, I've been playing clerics pretty exclusively. I experimented with a few different builds, but found that it tends to be my favorite to play a "healbot" type, I don't know why (my husband tells me not to question it as he loves to be healed... lol).

Anyways, my husband decided he wanted to try out a build for a warforged, but it involved him taking that dreaded enhancement line where he wouldn't be able to be healed by divine magics.

And so, I thought about this long and hard. His character sounded like one that would have trouble being successful, as I know the majority of arcanes don't want to heal, they want to cc or nuke or whatever. But since I love playing the healbot, I decided to give it a try as a sorcerer.

Okay, she's better called a repairbot, I suppose, but she's a sorc who specializes in repair spells, force spells, and buffing mainly. She has a couple other "must-have" spells, but other than that she is a very unconventional caster, and on her own would have a lot of trouble being successful, herself. Together though, my husband and I, we work very well together and in about a week's time, we got up to level nine.

Whether I'm on my repairbot or on my clerics, I will heal warforged regardless. I love my warforged buddies, healer's friend or not. It's your business where you spend your action points. I just hope that other arcanes, who may not be specced as I am, find that while it may not be their responsibility to do healing, it IS their responsibility to help the party ensure it's success in any quest or raid. It does indeed put some pressure on a cleric to heal a forged who is not healer friendly, and a couple whips of the wand or scroll to help out really mean a lot.

And as a final note... if anyone on the Ghallanda server around the levels 9-11ish sees Gwendalyn online, that's my repairbot and I'd love to quest with you. One of these days I have to get an ALL warforged + me party going, that would be such a blast! :D

Ghoste
07-27-2008, 03:29 PM
Now that's a funny statement. :eek:
Funny but true. If 5% less isn't getting the job done, I'd definitely question my choice of cleric.

anastasius
07-28-2008, 09:00 AM
I guess you have to have played a warforged to know the universal rule that applies here: "any fleshling caster who accepts a wand and says they'll keep an eye on the warforged's health is lying. The only thing they will use it for is to pick their nose. Even between fights."

Hmmm Ghoste, interesting "Universal" rule ya got there. I guess my 15 clr / 1 wizzy who buys and uses repair crit wands is only using them as a 4D8+7 backscratcher. Hmmm, come to think of it, unlike fleshies who have tithed to the Church, zero robots wannabees have ever tithed when I have drained that repair wand on them.

Arianrhod
07-28-2008, 11:44 AM
Hmmm Ghoste, interesting "Universal" rule ya got there. I guess my 15 clr / 1 wizzy who buys and uses repair crit wands is only using them as a 4D8+7 backscratcher. Hmmm, come to think of it, unlike fleshies who have tithed to the Church, zero robots wannabees have ever tithed when I have drained that repair wand on them.

It's not the ones who carry their own wands and accept donations of more, it's the ones who don't carry them in the first place...different mindset ;)

MrCow
07-28-2008, 11:56 AM
Hmmm Ghoste, interesting "Universal" rule ya got there.

Its not universal, but I will agree with Ghoste that it happens more often than not. Out of all of the repair wands I have handed out to people (arcanes, bards, rogues, etc.) I have been hit by those wands a cumulative amount of 6 times (with the exception of guild folks, as they have to put up with my Warforgedness of a daily basis). So, about 30 wands handed out, 6 charges expended, and probably 20 returned back. Its often not worth the time or money to hand them out.

Besides, most people who plan to repair Warforged with wands and/or scrolls are already stocked in some way. I know there have been cases where an arcane has actually said "Oh, a Warforged! This means I can finally use this wand that I got from a chest months ago."

On average, from observation, there are simply fewer arcanes who care to repair than their are healing-specialized bards. Its just the mindset that the overall populous has learned to adopt.

orcbanian
07-28-2008, 12:19 PM
My first toon is a WF fighter that learned fairly quickly that passing wands to fleshy casters wasn't an economical idea. Tossing some heal or res scrolls to the cleric worked much better (doesn't seem to be much anti-WF racism on Ghallanda). My second toon is a fleshy cleric that heals fleshies and WF alike. The only reason I ask if WF have healer's friend is so I can approximate how big of a heal they'll need based on their red bar. My third toon is a WF sorc that will wand-whip his fellow WF whenever he has the time and will occasionally spend SP to repair them when the situation allows.

From this, I have played 3 unique perspectives of healing WF and I can say that Healer's Friend is very important. I had HF 3 up until a recent respec when I downsized to a HF 2. Levik's Bracers are also a fantastic addition (+20% to incoming heals). Even if your cleric and arcanes are willing to heal/repair you, you should do everything in your power to minimize this necessity. WF make great tanks, but an inconsiderate WF tank can be a great drain on the party.

Take Healer's Friend 2, give your clerics some cash/scrolls, and don't expect anything from arcanes. Self-repairing is always a wise choice whether its pots or a splashed level of Wiz for repair and stoneskin wands. These are the best ways to keep your WF running fast and smooth.

Castlehawk
07-28-2008, 01:34 PM
I thought this was a necroed thread and these responses from a while back, took me a second to figure out they were recent.

So on my warforged, who has healer's friend I and uses the bracers from the hound, bringing his total heal effectiveness to 85% of a fleshy, he's still a liability?

I didnt say anything about supplimenting HF with bracers...I have these on all of my WF toons now ...ON TOP OF HF III

Ghoste
07-28-2008, 04:48 PM
Hmmm Ghoste, interesting "Universal" rule ya got there. I guess my 15 clr / 1 wizzy who buys and uses repair crit wands is only using them as a 4D8+7 backscratcher. Hmmm, come to think of it, unlike fleshies who have tithed to the Church, zero robots wannabees have ever tithed when I have drained that repair wand on them.
Lol, you talk about a 15clr/1wiz as if it were played at all similarily to how most people play a 16 wiz. Hmmm anastasius. Hmmm. that's very, hmmm, interesting.

As someone who has pure cleric and pure wizard characters, I have had the opposite of the experience you have expressed as far as who actually shares the cost of their healing.

Warforged shouldn't be paying tithes to your heretical god anyways.

Also, learn to spot clear sarcasm and obvious exageration when you see it. Reminds me of the very first post I ever made on the forums. It was a thread I started about how frustrating it was to give a caster arepair wand, be told by the caster that he'd keep an eye on your health, then have to ask him multiple times between fights for repairs beforehe'd relize i was talking to him. I declared a change to repair spells, that they would no longer work on fleshlings, that I would now be letting them die before so much as even whipping a repair wand a them. The very first response was someone calmly and patiently explaining to me, after I'd indicated I already had experience playing a warforged wizard, that repair spells never did work on fleshlings.

Mhykke
07-28-2008, 07:39 PM
I didnt say anything about supplimenting HF with bracers...I have these on all of my WF toons now ...ON TOP OF HF III


No, you said:

"Any WF melee type playing without HF3 is a liability and is IMO disrespectful of the people he/she pugs with"


Again I ask, I have HF I, and the bracers. Does that mean I'm a liability?

I'd submit that someone who wastes all the APs to go max on HF III in addition to wearing the bracers is hurting themselves in other ways (the sacrifice in APs just isn't worth it), maybe making them the liability in their groups.

orcbanian
07-28-2008, 09:22 PM
You're not a liability, but you would be wise to buy HF 2. Its expensive, but the % of increase is worth it. HF 3's % is not worth the cost, but HF 2 is.

Hvymetal
07-30-2008, 02:55 AM
You're not a liability, but you would be wise to buy HF 2. Its expensive, but the % of increase is worth it. HF 3's % is not worth the cost, but HF 2 is.
Agreed

Mhykke
07-30-2008, 03:00 AM
You're not a liability, but you would be wise to buy HF 2. Its expensive, but the % of increase is worth it. HF 3's % is not worth the cost, but HF 2 is.


But the problem lies not just in how many APs you're spending on HF 2, but what you're giving up to get it.

Castlehawk
07-31-2008, 01:17 PM
No, you said:

"Any WF melee type playing without HF3 is a liability and is IMO disrespectful of the people he/she pugs with"


Again I ask, I have HF I, and the bracers. Does that mean I'm a liability?

I'd submit that someone who wastes all the APs to go max on HF III in addition to wearing the bracers is hurting themselves in other ways (the sacrifice in APs just isn't worth it), maybe making them the liability in their groups.


Your being quite childish.... you know exactly what this conversation is all about.

HFI + Bracers > HFIII

My WF has HFIII + Bracers ..... and is by far not a liablity in any way....

iruka41
07-31-2008, 01:42 PM
Your being quite childish.... you know exactly what this conversation is all about.

HFI + Bracers > HFIII

My WF has HFIII + Bracers ..... and is by far not a liablity in any way....

You surely could have been more specific like that at the first time.
Don't expect others to fully understand you unless you provide enough description.
Even I was shrugging on your use of the word 'any'.

BTW personally I love a WF melee w/o any HF, when I'm on my WF sorcerer :)
"He's mine! You clerics never ever touch him! lol"

It is not wise to put everything in a single statement, because even on a PUG it is not hard to find a repairer at endgame.
Of course the caster have to save SP for repairing, but again the cleric can cast more offencive spells at the same time by not having to heal a WF.

I've been in a cleric, in a WF caster, in a WF melee, up to the endgame. And that's how I came up with this opinion:
"HF is one of many choices. You can live w/o it with no problem if you're a smart player, and have good friends."

And my personal choice on my WF melee is to get HF I. That's it.
Other action points can go into MORE variable places.