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Snike
08-05-2007, 12:11 PM
I am not the OP, just had a saved copy of the OP.


I think the last time the Ravi thread was actually updated was back with a level 10 cap, and I just started a new Rogue/Cleric and thought I'd post the build. I'm including a lot of my initial thoughts in how I came to the conclusions I did.

I had a few priorities when making this build. It was motivated by what I can only presume to be a similar build done by somebody in the Legion guild on whatever server they're on (those are the guys that brag non-stop about being the first to do something), but only just that, motivated. I had a level 5 (deleted) and a level 4 (also deleted) and a level 3 (turned pack mule) Rogue/Cleric builds that all would have been functional, I just lacked the motivation to play them (and therefore build them right). So, all that said...

Priorities
1) To be able to duo damn near any quest ingame with a 13/1 battle cleric (build unimportant, concept is what I was after).
2) Have enough Rogue skills for everything at least on Normal, much of it on Elite (Cabal does NOT count for this argument).
3) Be a fully capable cleric (ie, at least 11 levels and 24 Wisdom).
4) Be able to hold it's own in combat.

These priorities have a few key results that I want to touch on. None of these can be understated.
1) Favor soloing machine. There's not much that this guy wouldn't be capable of soloing for favor purposes (lever problems like Delera's part 2 not withstanding).
2) A boon to any party. Already have a Cleric? Fine, this guy can do traps provide emergency Res/Healing and contribute significantly in combat.
3) Is half of a very potent tag-team setup if you can get a friend to roll a new cleric with you.

Now, I know a lot of us either already have 7 (or 8 or even 9) slots filled up or have that empty slot being saved for a Half Orc / Monk or something, but I think this build would be a great addition to an account of strong archetype characters. Something just off-the-wall enough to draw attention for all the good reasons.

Ok ok, enough blabbering, you clicked on this to see a build...

Race: 32 pt Human - I chose this for several reasons, and here they are:
1) Human Versatility - Rogue 2 only nets a +2 boost. Human Versa is a +5.
2) Human Adaptability Enhancements
3) Extra Feat

If you don't have 32 pt access, Drow (*sigh*) is the second best choice. +2 int helps a bit, but you actually wind up with slightly lower stats (Cha is a dump score here).

Stat Distribution
Str: 16 + 3 levels + 1 tome + 1 HA enh + 5 item = 26
Dex: 12 + 1 tome + 5 item = 18
Con: 10 + 1 tome + 5 item = 16
Int: 15 + 1 tome + 5 item + 1 HA enh = 22
Wis: 15 + 3 enh + 1 tome + 5 item = 24
Cha: 8 + 0 = 8

I did it this way because I have a +1 Int tome to chew at level 1. If you don't, put another point into Int and well, figure something out. This is what I recommend. Most of us with 32 pt access can find/spare a single +1 tome to start and will have a stack of them by level 12-14. I'm leaving out +6 stat items but putting in several tomes. Obviously, a +6 stat item is just as good as a +5 and +1 tome, so I assume one of those 2 options is possible.

I plan on putting all my Stat increases into Strength. Going back to my priorities, I have enough points in all my other stats to cover the necessities. However, due to lower BAB, this character really needs some points in Strength to help make up for it. At any rate, 4 stats at 20 or better are pretty much all required for this guy.

Level Breakdown
Rogue 2 / Cleric 12

What order on the levels?
Rogue 1 / Cleric 1-10 / Rogue 2 / Cleric 11-12

This gets you to the point that matters the most (Res) and the most of your skill points from the later Rogue level. Cleric 10 is taken before Rogue 2 so that you don't lose out on a point of UMD on account of half ranks.

Feats
1 Toughness
H: Skill Focus UMD
3 Exotic Weapon: Khopesh
6 Extend Spell
9 Mental Toughness
12 Improved Crit: Slashing

Now, the skill factors. We all know Cabal Elite traps are just insane. Only a pure skill-focused Rogue will ever do those. So, I'm not gonna try. I'm shooting for a "Cabal Normal" with a side of "Everything Else Elite" target. I think this is much more reasonable than even attempting Cabal Elite.

Search
17 Ranks
+1 Rogue Enhancement
+5 Human Versatility
+6 Int Mod
+13 Item
+6 Find Traps Spell (mwahaha!)
+4 Greater Heroism
+1 Prayer
+53 Search - this is better than a LOT of straight class Rogues. We get the benefit of Find Traps spell and Prayer both from self casting. NOTE: +60 Search is attainable with the right gear. See this post for details.

Disable Device
17 Ranks
+1 Rogue Enhancement
+6 Int Mod
+13 Item
+4 Greater Heroism
+1 Prayer
+7 Tools
+5 Human Versatility
+54 Disable - it hits the +50 watermark. Enough said in my book.

UMD
17 Ranks
+1 Cha Mod (self buffed to 12 Cha if it matters)
+3 Cartouche
+4 Greater Heroism
+1 Prayer
+5 Human Versatility
+3 Skill Focus
34 UMD when it matters. Most of the time, it's going to be 23 (unbuffed Cha + GH) or so.

With the +1 tome, you will be able to keep Search/DD/UMD all maxed. When you take the second level of Rogue, you should be able to dump 11 extra ranks into Open Lock (for a total of 15). This is plenty for elite content.

Open Lock
15 ranks
+1 Rogue Enhancement
+4 Dex Mod
+13 Item
+4 Greater Heroism
+1 Prayer
+7 Tools
+5 Human Versatility
+50 Open Lock


Saves (F/R/W)
8/4/8 Cleric
0/3/0 Rogue
3/4/7 Stats
4/4/4 Resistance Item
4/4/4 Greater Heroism
19/19/23 Saves - Not uber of uber, but certainly "good".

Attack Mod (with longsword)
9 BAB
+8 Str
+3 Divine Favor
+6 Divine Power (clicky or spell - I have 3 clickies of 5 uses each)
+4 Greater Heroism
+5 Sword
+35 First Attack with modest buffing. Sure, it goes higher, but GH is about the only thing you can rely on (extended cast at beginning of quest or Planar Gird).

Hit Points
Sadly, this is where this build needs the most improvement. However, with another good Battle Cleric (remember the duo priority?) or just about any run-of-the-mill tank this guy shouldn't get a whole lot of agro.

20 Heroic Durability
10 Agents Favor
12 Rogue 2
96 Cleric 12
56 Constitution
16 Toughness
210 - certainly not uber, but I make it a goal to hit 200 on just about any character I play. With all the other stuff this guy does, I'm happy with 210.

Update History
June 04, 2007 - Updated Prayer vs Recitation differences, removed Wizard level.
June 09, 2007 - Changed from Elf to Human (and rerolled my character accordingly)

Dkmafia
08-14-2007, 06:19 PM
Always liked this build, definitely innovative. But I'm curious why you focused so much attention into combat? Does the kopesh and extra stats etc.. make enough difference to matter? I have a cleric that is not combat spec'd in any way except arguably the base of 12 str, and he slaps on divine favor/power and a few gear changes and is just fine in combat.

While the imp crit is irreplaceable, the 16str could be distributed to allow some room for defensive items rather having so many slots towards a +5/6 items mabye?

Still a nice build, just adding my 2cents. I always do find myself more defensive oriented though. Guess it's just my playstyle.

brodie
09-28-2007, 10:33 AM
can you post how you spread your skill points out? I get 6skill points as cleric. thats 2 search 2 disable 2 open and X for umd only halfpoints while training cleric.

thx

PurdueDave
09-28-2007, 06:45 PM
I always kind of liked this build as well. Never played it. Probably never will. I just think it's a neat multi-role challenge.

Grenfell
09-28-2007, 11:25 PM
I think I would make several changes to this version of the Ravi build.

First, I'm not sure I get the 12/2 splits -- the key spells are Heal and Raise Dead. Heal is available at lvl 11. 3 Rogue gets you many more skill points and an extra d6 on backstab (if combat is something you want to do at all).

Second, the khopesh and toughness feats are, i believe, suboptimal in this idea. They don't contribute as much.

Evasion is going to be rough with Cleric saves, but better than a kick in the nutz.

I may have to work a variant up -- this is a nice challenging build. :)

/gren

Mad_Bombardier
09-29-2007, 10:26 AM
Evasion is going to be rough with Cleric saves, but better than a kick in the nutz.

I may have to work a variant up -- this is a nice challenging build. :)Did someone say 2Rogue/2Paly/10Cleric? :eek:

Grenfell
09-29-2007, 05:07 PM
Did someone say 2Rogue/2Paly/10Cleric? :eek:

It's doable. :) Was what i was wondering about... Heal would be via scroll, and a caster level check...

Thing is... Cha, Int, Wis, Con, AND Dex? And some Str if you want to fight at all?

Aaaah.... Not sure about that one....

/gren

Geonis
09-29-2007, 05:46 PM
I would put the level up points (3) into Wis, not Str. For a +1 to hit and damage, it's not worth it. Your Str starts at 16, add your Human point and a +1 tome = 18, don't bother with an item, use the +6 from Divine Power, and you're at a 24 Str. You can always drink a Rage pot if this isn't enough for you. And why you're using clickies of it, I have no idea. You have the spell! Putting the 3 level up points into Wis allows you to hit a 28 with a +6 item, adding more SPs and upping your DCs by 2. Believe me high DC on Greater Command and Cometfall is excellent! My straight Cleric hasn't found a +6 Wis item yet and so sits at 28 and can drop almost everything in the game with a Greater Command or Cometfall.


Also, your to-hit is a bit off, your BAB is a 10, not 9. The Divine Power will raise it to 14, adding +5 to-hit, so I don't think your final numbers are wrong, just where they come from.

Other than the above, the only "real" issue I see with this guy is you can't max out any good light armor Dex-wise. I guess you can go with plain old chain shirt?

Club'in
10-11-2007, 09:36 AM
No need to wear light armor. Just go with the full plate. Nobody lets you do any sneaking in this game anyways. The important skills for the build (disable, search, open lock) are unaffected by heavy armor.

Mad_Bombardier
10-11-2007, 10:31 AM
No need to wear light armor. Just go with the full plate. Nobody lets you do any sneaking in this game anyways. The important skills for the build (disable, search, open lock) are unaffected by heavy armor.You can only use Evasion in Light Armor. ;) And this is a 2/12 build with Evasion.

Club'in
10-11-2007, 12:00 PM
You can only use Evasion in Light Armor. ;) And this is a 2/12 build with Evasion.

Ah ha! Good point. But Gren and I hashed this out earlier in the year, and you won't want to take that second thief level til pretty late in the build, in order to maximize skill points. So, up till then, plate it is. And I would argue that unless you're slipping past a trap to get to the box on the other side, or engaging some nasty casters, you'll still want plate most of the time.

Mad_Bombardier
10-11-2007, 12:20 PM
Ah ha! Good point. But Gren and I hashed this out earlier in the year, and you won't want to take that second thief level til pretty late in the build, in order to maximize skill points. So, up till then, plate it is. And I would argue that unless you're slipping past a trap to get to the box on the other side, or engaging some nasty casters, you'll still want plate most of the time.Yup, yup. True, true. Pip, pip and Cheerio! :D

Gol
10-20-2007, 08:54 AM
I think I would make several changes to this version of the Ravi build.

First, I'm not sure I get the 12/2 splits -- the key spells are Heal and Raise Dead. Heal is available at lvl 11. 3 Rogue gets you many more skill points and an extra d6 on backstab (if combat is something you want to do at all).

Second, the khopesh and toughness feats are, i believe, suboptimal in this idea. They don't contribute as much.

Evasion is going to be rough with Cleric saves, but better than a kick in the nutz.

I may have to work a variant up -- this is a nice challenging build. :)

/grenSince I was the "OP", I'll address some of these...

The 12/2 Split: as a solo/duo-er, the backstab bonus is irrelevant to me personally. 26 Str w/ Improved crit and Khopeshes means you will get a decent chunk of agro anyway. The skill points, while nice, offer nothing essential compared to 60 (base) SP (+feats/wisdom/etc) and another 5th and 6th level spell. You already have max UMD/Search/Disable and enough Open Lock. What else do you really need? Cleric 12 also gets a point on every save. I'd honestly prefer an 11/2/1 split, splashing Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian, over 11/3, for the obvious martial weapon stuff and your preferred class bonus.

Regarding Toughness and Khopesh, there's a valid argument against Toughness. I really wish the old thread was still around, because I talked about feat selections at length in the followup posts. I took Khopesh because this guy won't have Martial weapons, and needs something for at least half-decent DPS. The jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none people are going to criticize this, but I can't tell you how much I hate playing nanny-bot.

Gol
10-20-2007, 10:02 AM
Oh, the Find Traps spell also caps at level 12 for the full +6 bonus :)