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View Full Version : New Raid Loot Mechanic - explained and suggestions, opinions?



Naso24
08-04-2007, 07:40 PM
Here is what the devs posted (numbers added for discussion):

(1) NEW - The primary warded chest in all raids has been converted to the standard format for all chests in DDO. Every player in the raid will have their own treasure generated and assigned to them when they look into the chest. The locking glyphs are no more.

(2) Each character has a 1 in 6 chance to receive a special item from that raid’s loot table. Otherwise, a standard treasure from the maximum treasure table appropriate for that raid will be generated for that character. Players may re-assign any items to other characters in the raid using the new treasure re-assignment feature. This includes any special raid only items.

(3) The raid only items are still bound once they are removed from the chest. A warning confirmation box appears when attempting to grab a bind on acquire raid item from the chest.

(4) In addition, the primary warded chest creates the list of characters that are allowed to loot the chest at the time chest spawns. This list contains all the members of the raid at the time the list was created. Characters not on the list do not have treasure generated for them when they open the chest and may not have items re-assigned to them.
Explanation:

(1) Party leaders will no longer hand out warded runes to access the items in the chest. All items in the chest, special raid loot or otherwise, will have a name attached to them. This does take care of a rare chance that the leader will take the loot, or assign it to someone he feels is worthy. This will not eliminate rolling, as players will define their own rules for raids as they always have (need before greed, tomes open to all, highest die roll wins, etc.). It could introduce a new problem where people will want to sell, trade, or keep the raid item assigned to them, despite agreements ahead of time. Another problem that is introduced is if a character disconnects, is dropped from the server, or gets blown out of the quest (dragon wing buffet), the named loot if it is there, goes to complete waste. Under the current system, leadership is automatically passed, or can be reassigned, preserving the loot for the party.

(2) Everybody will get something, although if you don't get a raid item, it will most likely be mediocre junk (per tests on risia). While you have a 1 in 6 chance of having a raid item assigned to you, any party with less than 12 will see less raid specific items on average across the party. A group of 6 players will only see 1 raid specific item on average per run. A group of 9 will see 3 raid specific items on average every 2 runs, vs the current 4. This means as a whole, LESS raid specific loot will drop. If you are unlucky when rolling the dice when an item you want drops (typically fewer than 4 people roll), what makes you think that your hidden 1 in 6 will be better, yet alone yield an item you can use. This will eliminate the incentive to run 1, 2, 3, and 4 man runs. Some are advocating for this. Sometimes more than 2 raid items will drop (cool). Sometimes no raid items will drop (bummer).

It will create more grieving when a player will not put an item up for rolls when the group establishes that rule ahead of time. It also potentially creates a system where in a mixed guild/pug group, guildies will favor giving items to guildies, and others will feel left out. On average, they will see other players getting more useful stuff more often. This will also create an incentive to just fill spots for the sake of filling them, not to really make the quest easier or bring new tactical possibilities.

(3) No change to current system - raid items are bound, and you get a warning before taking the item.

(4) This fixes the issue where a character can get loot from a chest in a raid they did not participate in. This "bug" primarily affects the reaver raid, which does not have a separate section prior to the final area like VON 5 or the titan, and no barrier to bar entry once the raid is completed like the DQ.
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I personally like (1), (3), and (4). Even with the drawbacks, I don't have a problem with them.

Most people that either hate or dislike the new system have a problem with (2). The 1 in 6 personal chance of loot equates to less raid specific loot than the current system for all but parties of 12. To many, this is a disincentive to run raids altogether, since it will take much longer to get a full group together just to keep the current drop rate.

Here are some suggestions to change the system that will not turn off the hardcore player base, and will also encourage larger than minimal sized groups.

(A) One item always drops randomly assigned, plus a 1/6 personal chance. This would provide incentive to bring more people, would be the same on average for groups of 6, and would reward groups with 7 to 12 with more loot on average from the current system. This eliminates the disappointing zero drop raid.

(B) Players have a 1 in 4 chance of raid loot. This would still provide small groups a decent chance of getting some raid specific loot, would be equivalent to the current drop rate on average, and would reward groups of 12.

(C) Keep (1) (2) (3) and (4), only increase the raid item drop rate to 1/5 on hard and 1/4 on elite. This would make it more difficult for small groups to get raid loot, but would not be terrible. This would reward taking more players. This would reward doing the raid at a higher difficulty.

(D) Keep all the changes, only award tokens with a 1 in 6 drop rate. Have the chest spawn with 2 + n different raid items (n being the number that got a token). If 2 people get tokens, they can choose from 4 items. If 1 person gets a token, he can choose from 3 possibilities. One persons choice does not remove the choice from the others. If 4 people get tokens, there are 6 choices for all 4 people. This would be incentive to bring more people, and would be cool enough to make up for less pulled raid loot on average for groups of 6 or 8 - the chance of actually getting something you can use. Allow tokens to be reassigned, or not depending on balance.

(E) Keep all the proposed changes, but keep the drop rate fixed at 2 per raid, assigned randomly amoung the players in the quest at the time of completion.

Any one of the above options are appealing to me, while the current planned system would ruin running raids. I welcome change, but feel strongly this social engineering experiment will result in the opposite effect - less raids will be run.

Do you really like (2) as is, or feel (A), (B), (C), (D) or (E) or ANY/ALL of the alternatives would be preferrable to the currently planned system? Comments? Suggestions?

Naso24
08-06-2007, 01:29 AM
Just to add some info - another thread posted a poll. Over 50% are against the new system, and a good chunk of those for the new system also indicated that it needs tweaking. For those that voted for, or for with tweaking, I would really love to hear your opinions on my suggested alternatives.

I just think there has to be a way to bring many of those that are against onboard, or at least not feel this is such a horrible change, while keeping those for the change happy too.

Taur
08-06-2007, 05:42 AM
personally i think it's fine the way it's going to be. the proposed change will in no way break raiding all together and the people complaining are the guildless and the ones that already have a bank full of raid loot.

I look on the change as advantageous; but then again, my guild raids in large groups with a full 12 or near enough to it. I don't believe loot is the focus of a raid. I believe the focus of a raid is the camaraderie and team-building associated with a large group working together toward a common goal. The loot is just an added perk.

Knightrose
08-06-2007, 05:52 AM
I'm for it because I enjoy change.

Most of you are only roaring at the dawn. You've got your notes from the Dev changes. Then you've got your dozen and a half percentile threads on how often you 'won't' get the loot 'you' want. This along with any other criticism you've decided to throw on the top of your mountainous claims and rattling; and you havn't even given the system a weeks worth of play yet to see how enjoyable or un-enjoyable it is.

Turbine can be upsetting, sure. They have before. But for Gandhi's sake let them walk to the racks before you hang them.

Most of the criticism I have read has been enitrely selfish claims:

"I won't get the loot I want."

And of course currently, the best way to get a chance at what 'you' want is by 2man'ing or soloing the raids. Well I'm sorry but "boo-hoo."

Members of the guild I play with have my deepest respects for their solo accomplishments. I myself have succeeded in such arenas as well. But that's no reason to be selfish.

Give it a go.

Take a chance.

CoolHand_Luke
08-06-2007, 07:12 AM
What if the timers were decreased, to say once per day, or even eliminated?

Anastasios
08-06-2007, 07:34 AM
What if the timers were decreased, to say once per day, or even eliminated?

Once a day-maybe. Eliminated-never. Good idea though, better than anything else I've heard, of course we unfortuantely do not have Einstein around anymore, maybe we could have asked ol' Al if he had an equation for the DDO raid loot system-----Oh wait, I've got one...Group up with people you know, people you enjoy playing with and would be willing to give you their raid loot as you would be willing to give yours to them based on necessity. There are people out there like that, that is the only way to make this system work, so bucker up and find some friends and hope the raid timer goes down to a day.

More I think about it, the better it sounds, once a day keeps the raid loot not away.

Naso24
08-06-2007, 12:09 PM
I'm for it because I enjoy change.

...
Turbine can be upsetting, sure. They have before. But for Gandhi's sake let them walk to the racks before you hang them.

Most of the criticism I have read has been enitrely selfish claims:

"I won't get the loot I want."

And of course currently, the best way to get a chance at what 'you' want is by 2man'ing or soloing the raids. Well I'm sorry but "boo-hoo."



I am all for change. The raids had some loopholes in them that needed fixing. I don't even care about 2-manning the raid or soloing it anymore. But I would like to have the same shot at loot with a group of 6 that I currently have.

Why 6? 12 is a pain to put together anytime I want to run a reaver raid. 12 is also somewhat boring - for a raid that can be beaten most of the time on elite with 6 decent players.

I recently brought a party of 6 for the raid, with 2 that had not done the quest before. We did the quest on elite, no problems. Once you learn the gimmick for a raid, it no longer requires so many players.

Those that want to force groups of 12 on everybody to maintain the current drop rate will simply turn into luggage. With the exception of tempest spine, all raids turn into a few people doing the work while everybody else is along for a free ride or stands around watching the action. Why is this the players fault? In a group of 6 or 8, my current chances of getting a piece of raid loot are 2 in 6 or 2 in 8, as are yours. Why do you want the reward system to drive players that can do a quest with fewer people join into full sized groups? Will this make it more fun for those that find the raid a challenge to be marginalized?

Most of my suggestions do not specifically favor short man groups of 1, 2, 3, or 4. Most of my suggestions do not alienate a large group of people or compel them to make the raid a joke for everybody else.

One thing is universally true - people will not run quests where the risk is not worth the reward. This is probably one of the reasons why very few people actually like the necropolis, and prison of the planes is run mostly on elite.

Why is there such animosity towards players that like to run raids "short manned" with 6 to 8 people? I don't understand this warfare between the casual gamers and those that dedicate more time. Does it make the game more enjoyable for you by making a style of gameplay less enjoyable for so many? Yes - reward vs risk is a real factor in enjoyment.

By trying to eliminate the 2 man raid runs, you're also advocating a nerf for 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 man raid runs. I can understand why someone would want to lower the reward for true short man runs - just not everything in between.

Does nobody think any of the suggestions I made are preferrable to the planned 1 in 6 across all difficulties method?

Gimpster
08-06-2007, 01:07 PM
Does nobody think any of the suggestions I made are preferrable to the planned 1 in 6 across all difficulties method?
A lot of people probably think they're better. They just don't point you out in particular, because there are many choices better than the new upcoming system.

rivnen
08-06-2007, 01:30 PM
my problem with the new raid system is that the loot drop doesn't coincide with typical raids. Yes a "raid" is 12 people. BUT it is actually easier with fewer people than the full 12 in most cases. 6 People in Titan-or Reaver results in the clerics mana having to stretch less (even if you would have 2 with 12) I also notice fewer deaths in smaller raids-Dragon sure bring 12 all the clerics do is rez anyway. But it takes longer (even with the server merge) then forming up 4-7 to go run the raid. Every now and then I'll start a guild titan run and get 10 people that want to come and thats cool, but for the most part i'm 5 manning it. Because people just don't want to do it.

Cyr
08-06-2007, 02:07 PM
People keep on posting how much less raid loot you will get and sure it is true, but that is not my main reason for disliking this new system...it is the fact that most raids at the end will devolge into lets make a deal (which i posted in another thread why this is a problem so will not repeat here).

I got to say that the posters options are not bad...I particullarly like D where your choice of itmes does not screw another player out of there's. Also I like giving higher odds to people who run hard/elite setttings which is sorerly needed, how about a hybred of the two. BTW: Like option D the most since it is much more likely that the player who pulls the token will have an item he wants in that spawned chest making the lets make a deal statement less likely per raid.

Knightrose
08-06-2007, 02:55 PM
Actually we consider 6-8 people to be a full raid in our guild. Most of the time we run 2 or 3 smaller raid groups in the guild. The only time we have more then 6 is for Titan or Dragon. And that's only because of the switches and the puzzle, and the medallions.

So there is no animosity toward players who prefer smaller groups. I'm simply trying to promote more acceptance. Chance-giving. To be more open-minded and skeptical as opposed to apocolyptic and doom-saying.