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spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:48 PM
The Retribution Ranger: An Elf with an attitude.

Purpose: To achieve the maximum dps possible in the game and to provide a counter culture to the Dorf establishment.

Race: Elf (32 points)
11 Ranger/3 Paladin
Str 18 (16 points +3 levels) = 21 (+5 item = 26)
dex 13 (5 points +5 enhancements) =18
Con 12 (6 points)
Intel 08
Wis 08 [you will need a plus 6 wisdom item, which is not difficult]
Char 13 (5 points plus 1 enhancement) = 14

Feats:
1: Weapon focus, slash
3: Power Attack
6: Power CRitcial slash
9: Improved critical slash
12: Open

Required Enhancements:
Elf Longsword/rapier attack I and II
Elf Longsword/rapier damage I and II
Elf enchantment save line
Elf dexterity line
Ranger dexterity line
Paladin Longsword to hit bonus (Divine)

Saves
+2 to all saves divine grace
+3 to all saves Plus 6 charisma item
+5 to all saves Eye of Kypher
+10 bonus to all saves total.

Now the good part:

Attack
+14 bab
+8 strength
+1 divine enhancement
+2 Elf
+1 Retribution
-4 Dual wielding Longswords
+1 Weapon focus
+23 total
(+32 if using a +5 one handed longsword)

32 points is required for this build. If you do not have 1750 favor go drow and use the Rapier/shordsword enhancements. Rapiers will do more damage than longswords and the shortsword divine enhancement is available to drow.

Damage non crit

5 base (1d8)
+1 weapon
+ 8 strength
+7 Holy (2d6)
+3.5 True law (1d6)
+3.5 pure good (1d6)
28 total non crit

damage critical
10 base (1d8x2)
+2 weapon (1x2)
+ 16 strength (8.2)
+7 Holy (2d6)
+3.5 True law (1d6)
+3.5 pure good (1d6)
42 total average critical

So 90% x 32 29.9 plus 10% critting 42 (4.2) = 33 x7 attacks =
230 per round average damage

spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Maldini
Those numbers can be altered slightly. You could get +26 with Madstone Boots. You could get +16 not +13 because of the way it works with two-handers. You could get another +6 for a total of +22 if you were a WF. You could get another +2 from a Righteouness weapon. So Max Base could be around 55. Then you add Bard buffs, a divine power clicky and you're in the 60's.

spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:53 PM
A comparison of Gol, Maldini, and Retribution, unfortunately the original Gol calculations are lost:

Maldini two-hander, non crit
1d12 (6.5)
1d6 elemental (3.5)
1d6 PG (3.5)
+5 weapon
+13 power attack
+24 str
54.5 average

Maldini Two-hander, crit
1d12 (6.5*2=13)
1d6 elemental (3.5)
1d6 PG (3.5)
+5 weapon (10)
+13 power attack (23)
+24 str (48)
101 avg

crits are on 18+ with two handers, so 20% of the time.
54.5 * 0.8 + 101 * 0.2 = 43.6 + 20.2 = 63.8 average

63.8 x 4 attacks per round = 255.2 points of damage per round average.

255.2 for Maldini [*Raged]
242.2 for Gol
230 for dual wielded retributions

Ok Maldini does win [*when raged], but not by a landslide. The conclusion:

RANGERS CAN NOW BE CONSIDERED TRUE DAMAGE DEALERS!

spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Jaysensen
Personally, I consider Dwarf drastically better than other races at the moment... Gear not withstanding. Sadly, it really does come down to gear. When you are squeezing out the last few points of attack and damage like in this thread, it comes down to gear. If you have better Longswords, go Elf. Rapiers, Drow. Axes Dorf.

With unlimited weapon choice (read: you are rich), Finesse - Drow - Rapier is the way to go, because of crit-based rapiers: Banishing, Smiting, W/P.


If I were to make a non-Dwarf given the current state of DDO, I would build a Titania Silk Artemis, by Spiff. I consider that to be the best Drow Finesse Ranger out there with the current level cap. Ranger-Monk builds not withstanding...

Jay for the first time on these forums I am speechless....

spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigtrent
I think if you get your attack values high enough..

Rapier/Rapier will out damage both Rapier/Shortsword and certainly Longsword/Longsword.

The rapier/rapier is -4 to dual wield vs -2 for the rapier/shortsword.

[Note to new people that this is offset by the elf enhancments and taking a -2 to hit for dual wielding is made up for by the increased speed of attacks]

spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Gol
+2 dorf axe bonus on the GA
+1 prayer buff
+6 bard song
+1 divine favor clicky
+1 madstone rage

there's another +11 for Maldini. +33 on crits. I left out all these type of buffs from my calculations because it applies equally to the two numbers I was crunching. this can't be understated. I was doing comparison calcs for 2 TWF rangers and left out a lot of stuff that really matters when comparing TWF to anything else.

Also, Greataxe attack animation is much faster than TWF. Significantly so. You have to do true DPS and not DPR (per Round) to compare the two. Those numbers aren't as easy to crunch on the fly.
/end gol


You are saying two handers get more than 4 attacks per round?

Additional buffs would favor the faster attacker over time. People have an equal chance at getting those, especially bard buffs.

Yes a true comparison would require a graph, and would average in unraged time and fatigue.

spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:57 PM
Gol: No, I'm saying that a two-hander round completes faster than a two-weapon round, and a greataxe is even faster than a greatsword.

Additional buffs favor the faster attacker or the biggest critical hitter.

Take the Sword of Shadows, for example.

non-crit
7 base (2d6)
+5 weapon
+13 power attack
+24 str
+1 prayer buff
+6 bard song
+1 divine favor clicky
+1 madstone rage (extra str)
58 avg base damage, and it all stacks on crits for 174 avg crit.

Barbs crit on this thing on 13+ (40% of the time).
58 * 0.6 + 174 * 0.4 = 34.8 + 69.6 = 104.4

4 attacks / round = 417.6 DPR

Now I'm sure I missed something somewhere. I'm not a real damage expert when it comes to absolute comparisons and barbarians. However, I think you get the idea. A Barbarian with a SoS wins. End of Story. Then again, this isn't news to the Barbarians.

spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaysensen
For the record, I never said Rangers coudnt do great damage. In fact, I have been saying Rangers can, for over a year, back when everyone hated Rangers. But even I have to admit that a Ranger no matter how good, can beat out a Shade/Maldini type with Madstone boots. Lets be real ^^

Having grouped with Shade's Barb, I can tell you that even in the course of a quest such as Madstone Elite, running out of Rages and clickies and fatigue is not a factor at all. That is probably because he is a good player and knows when and when not to Rage etc...

And yeah, Axes swing after than Swords. I hear that Mauls swing the fastest of the two handers. But I only use Rapiers and SS, so what do I know...
/end Jay


The goal is not to beat Shade and Maldini its to beat barbs overall in dps.

spifflove
08-04-2007, 02:58 PM
Ok lets look at this again: 9 extra damage that works just as well on the two weapon fighter would be 9 * .8 + 18*.2 = 11 extra damage per swing * 7 per round = 77 extra damage per round.

Thats
299.4 for Maldini [*Raged]
329.2 for Gol
307 dual wielded Retributions

Outside of the SoS, the Ranger is now DPS KING!

Of course you leet players with an sos will still win like its nobody's business. But that does not overcome my intellectual victory.

Steadfast
08-04-2007, 08:35 PM
What's the sequence of the Ranger and Paladin levels for this build?

Steadfast

spifflove
08-05-2007, 11:52 AM
1st- ranger (for max skills)
2nd -Paladin
3rd -Paladin (Early divine grace)
4th and up ranger

Its best to sword and board up to level 8, unless you are extremely lucky and pull two Retributions before then.

QuantumFX
09-10-2007, 11:09 PM
Spiff - You know you haven't created a 32pt elf right? You can do 18/15/12/8/8/13. (Though I prefer 18/16/12/8/8/12 and a some +1 tomes...)

Vengenance
09-11-2007, 12:33 PM
You can start w/ a 16 str and still easily end up with a 26 Str (+3 Lvl, +1 Tome, and +6 Item), which will also allow you to move your dex to 18 to give you a 30 at lvl 14 (+1 Tome, +6 Item, +3 Ranger Dex III, and +2 Elven Dex 2). Now you have a very balanced build that will allow you to use range as effectively as melee weapons. With the elven longbow enhancements (+2 Hit/+2 Damage) your effectively at a 34Dex. Many shot does huge DPS combined with improved precise shot, I can usually drop an entire mob with many shot.

Just some food for thought, but since your taking enough ranger levels to get many shot, why not make the most use out of it while still not sacrificing to much from your build. You could even start out at a 16-17 dex and get to a 28 dex or 30 with a +2 Favor Tome.

spifflove
09-12-2007, 12:36 AM
Spiff - You know you haven't created a 32pt elf right? You can do 18/15/12/8/8/13. (Though I prefer 18/16/12/8/8/12 and a some +1 tomes...)

Doh! I didn't count the elf bonus. Good catch.

spifflove
09-12-2007, 12:40 AM
You can start w/ a 16 str and still easily end up with a 26 Str (+3 Lvl, +1 Tome, and +6 Item), which will also allow you to move your dex to 18 to give you a 30 at lvl 14 (+1 Tome, +6 Item, +3 Ranger Dex III, and +2 Elven Dex 2). Now you have a very balanced build that will allow you to use range as effectively as melee weapons. With the elven longbow enhancements (+2 Hit/+2 Damage) your effectively at a 34Dex. Many shot does huge DPS combined with improved precise shot, I can usually drop an entire mob with many shot.

Just some food for thought, but since your taking enough ranger levels to get many shot, why not make the most use out of it while still not sacrificing to much from your build. You could even start out at a 16-17 dex and get to a 28 dex or 30 with a +2 Favor Tome.

18 strength is the way to go. Believe me the dps on this build is so sweet you wont want to twang your bow unless absolutely necessary. Bow ability is nice but it is very situational. The dps holds its own in the Reaver pre raid against all except the sos barbs. If you use rapiers and the peircing line you can do even more dps depending on what you find (although I twink my good rapiers to my rogue).

Vengenance
09-12-2007, 03:52 PM
18 strength is the way to go. Believe me the dps on this build is so sweet you wont want to twang your bow unless absolutely necessary. Bow ability is nice but it is very situational. The dps holds its own in the Reaver pre raid against all except the sos barbs. If you use rapiers and the peircing line you can do even more dps depending on what you find (although I twink my good rapiers to my rogue).

We'll have to agree to disagree, starting with an 18 str is a waste of creation points. I wouldn't start out with more than a 17, which allows you to easily get to a 26 Str (+3 lvl, +1 tome, +5 item) and with some work gets you to a 28 str (+2 Favor tome & +6 Item). The other points can be placed into dex, which would give you some range capabilities and a higher AC.

I have a similar build that ended up 26 Str /30 Dex and switch between range and dual wielding longswords. My build is a bit more balanced as I started with only a 16 str.

spifflove
09-12-2007, 04:43 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree, starting with an 18 str is a waste of creation points. I wouldn't start out with more than a 17, which allows you to easily get to a 26 Str (+3 lvl, +1 tome, +5 item) and with some work gets you to a 28 str (+2 Favor tome & +6 Item). The other points can be placed into dex, which would give you some range capabilities and a higher AC.

I have a similar build that ended up 26 Str /30 Dex and switch between range and dual wielding longswords. My build is a bit more balanced as I started with only a 16 str.

What are you going to do if you get really lucky and find a plus 3 tome? A plus 6 strength item (I have one and I am by no means a power gamer).

Rangers have it badly because they get no strength enhancements and no rage. So Every bit helps. What they do get is a cheaper stat buy because of the free twf feats. Take advantage of it.

Vengenance
09-13-2007, 02:16 PM
If I get a +3 Tome I'll end up with a 28 str and be very happy. Your original post has you at a 26 str, I only suggested that an end str of 26 was easily accomplishable starting with a 16 str instead of an 18 str. A 17 str can get you to an even 28 Str w/a +2 favor tome. Again, personal preference here, I wouldn't start out with such a high str, it costs to many ability points.

spifflove
09-13-2007, 06:38 PM
If I get a +3 Tome I'll end up with a 28 str and be very happy. Your original post has you at a 26 str, I only suggested that an end str of 26 was easily accomplishable starting with a 16 str instead of an 18 str. A 17 str can get you to an even 28 Str w/a +2 favor tome. Again, personal preference here, I wouldn't start out with such a high str, it costs to many ability points.

Because you do not need a high dexterity, you can afford it. Let the fighter and barbarian twf builds go with low strength. You will not regret the extra dps. Your ability to kill things quickly is your best defense.

spifflove
09-22-2007, 09:57 AM
On a pug Titan group, I owned the kill counts by a large margin. Within my own guild (a leet one) I can outkill the fighters and paladins by small margins but not sos pure barbs.

Still my own guild is such a ranger hating guild its hard to earn their respect.

Successfully 4 maned the Reaver and was the last man standing.

Shade
09-26-2007, 11:32 AM
Heh so spifflove so requested, here my comment on this build again.

Still has the same wrong made up DPS numbers as the last post.

Things you don't factor in for your benefit:
50% Str on off hand
Slower attack cycle of TWF vs THF (around 10-20% slower in real world)
Proper x2 progression of power attack for 2hander vs 2WF (well acutally your own dmg doesn't add power attack at all lol)
Glancing blows
etc, etc, etc.

Like always, the numbers make no sense. The bulid isn't bad this time so if you want it to look like a respectable post, just take down the foolish incorrect calculations and put it up for what it is.

spifflove
09-26-2007, 12:15 PM
Heh so spifflove so requested, here my comment on this build again.

Still has the same wrong made up DPS numbers as the last post.

Things you don't factor in for your benefit:
50% Str on off hand
Slower attack cycle of TWF vs THF (around 10-20% slower in real world)
Proper x2 progression of power attack for 2hander vs 2WF (well acutally your own dmg doesn't add power attack at all lol)
Glancing blows
etc, etc, etc.

Like always, the numbers make no sense. The bulid isn't bad this time so if you want it to look like a respectable post, just take down the foolish incorrect calculations and put it up for what it is.

I asked you to reinterate your position which you made that a Ranger isn't a melee class. Are you already backing off of that statement? If you want to post corrected numbers I would welcome your calculations. [side by side with your build and attack speed] I think my post is quite respectable since it was the inspiration for the slew of twf builds that you are seeing.

Gol used PA in a side by side comparison with this build [lost in the great purge] and while his numbers were slightly better, they were not by much. PA is useful if you use +5 weapons [along with whatever effects].

{Denying the Return of the Elf} At least I know you read that post now, lol.

ErgonomicCat
09-26-2007, 12:27 PM
I'm really tempted to make this now, because the idea of effectively using two non-light weapons is just amusing.

And I know, you said "Do it with 32."

But I'm lazy. ;)

I'm gonna try it with 17 str and 12 Cha and see how it goes.

Any recommended order for levels?

Ranger first, obviously, then what?

I'm thinking Ranger, Ranger, Pally, Pally, Ranger, Pally, Ranger to the end?

spifflove
09-26-2007, 06:38 PM
I'm really tempted to make this now, because the idea of effectively using two non-light weapons is just amusing.

And I know, you said "Do it with 32."

But I'm lazy. ;)

I'm gonna try it with 17 str and 12 Cha and see how it goes.

Any recommended order for levels?

Ranger first, obviously, then what?

I'm thinking Ranger, Ranger, Pally, Pally, Ranger, Pally, Ranger to the end?

Correct. Alternately, since you are short on points you can take one or two levels of barb instead of paladin and still have an 18 strength. You would have to put points into UMD, get the golden cartche, use a command item, a +4 char item, use greater hero and ranger action boost to wield Retribution. Alignment must be neutral or neutral good.

spifflove
10-07-2007, 09:26 AM
Was able to two person the DQ just before Mod 5. Not bad for a non melee character (acording to shade). It is better to range the post mod 5 DQ.