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Sojourner
08-03-2007, 05:33 PM
Since the forums trashed the previous post, here is a repost.

A build that my wife and I run together. Focused mostly on HP and Single-Target DPS.

A slight variation from other Barbarian builds that use the THF or Cleave feat lines to increase their total damage output. This build tries to avoid drawing any extra aggro to itself by reducing the splash damage done. The feats picked are to maximize single-target damage.

This build does assume you can get the following:
32 Point Build
Dragon Favor 10 HP
+2 Favor Tome
+2 STR or CON tome
+6 STR item
+5 CON item
Greater False Life Item
+4 Resistance Item

Hit Points = 20/Durabilty + 168/Levels + 154/CON + 16/Feat + 45/APs + 30/GFL + 10/Favor +56/RageCON = 443 / 499
Fort = 9/Base + 11/CON + 4/Item +4/Rage = 24 / 29
Ref = 4/Base + 1/DEX + 4/Item = 9
Will = 4/Base + 2/WIS + 4/Item + 9/Rage = 10 / 19

Abilities:
STR: 17 + 2/Level + 2/Tome + 6/Item = 27 + 9/Rage = 36
DEX: 9 + 3/Item = 12
CON: 20 + 1/Level + 2/Tome + 5/Item +4/APs = 32 + 8/Rage = 40
INT: 8
WIS: 10 + 4/Item = 14
CHR: 6

Skills
Balance
Jump
Spot

Feats
1: Toughness
3: WeaponFocus:Slashing
6: Power Attack
9: ImprovedCrit: Slashing
12: Stunning Blow (Possibly Cleave or THF if you wanted to start down those chains)

Enhancements
Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Barbarian Critial Rage II
Barbarian Extended Rage IV
Barbarian Extra Rage III
Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Barbarian Power Rage III
Barbarian Willpower II
Barbarian CON II
Dwarven CON II
Dwarven Toughness II
Barbarian Toughness III
Dwarven Axe Damage I
Dwarven Spell Defense I

Shade
08-03-2007, 07:53 PM
Most will agree barbarians primary role is that of front line melee combatant, there to deal the most damage and kill the enemies in the shortest time.

As such there primary stat is Str, with Con being a close 2nd.

Doesn't make sense imo to start with a higher con then str. Your basicly sacrifcing 4 Str, or 3 dmg for a 1 or 2 dozen HP and slightly longer rage, not worthwhile.

Being that youll get around 420 hp with max str and 18 con, and like 20+ minuits of rage.. Any more is a bit overkill.

The idea behind HP is to provide enough of a buffer to make it easier for clerics to hit you, that hits a wall at some point where having more is not useful. Currently the most damage you can take in 1 "round" is about 300.. Thats if you fail your save vs a elite dragons breath, and have no protection up. So having over 400 is enough to stay alive in even the toughest encounters.

Sojourner
08-04-2007, 02:00 PM
Where are you getting the extra 4 STR from in your example? And how 3 damage? Best I could see would be to add 2 more STR from level raises, for a +1 To-Hit and +1 Damage. The to-hit benefit is minimal since between rage, feats, and buffs, the to-hit percentage is going to be up around 95% (everything except a crit miss).

So, it comes down to:

+1 Damage per hit (+3 on crits)
versus
14 HP and 84 seconds of rage.

Both have valid points, and I could see someone going either way for this.


The HPs are about survivability over time. Perhaps a single hit can only do 300 HP. But, the longer I can go without having to need a heal spell, the more time the cleric has to look after the squishier party members before throwing me one and going back to them.

And, with the heal spell doing so much healing (352 for a decent cleric if I remember right), the cleric can pop me with one heal when I'm about 100 HP left with no mana wasted on over-healing. The thought is that a cleric can go longer between casts while at the same time knowing that they are getting every use out of every mana point they put into that spell.

Shade
08-04-2007, 02:43 PM
Your maximum str = 39 (add rage spell and +3 tome) effectively 38
Maximum str possible = 42 (+1 base +2 lvl ups)
4 difference or 3 damage (150% str mod for dmg on 2hander) 4 = +2 dmg 1.5 = 3. (9dmg on crits)

Or we could assume youll never get a +3 str tome, so if only +2 results in a effective difference of 2 str. (41 vs 38)

But that way you end with the same con score:
drop power rage IV (4 ap) = 40, not loss in dmg
pick up hearty rage 2 (3 ap), +2 con

- 2 con base, +1 str base (some xtra stat points and action points left over for other things too)

Overall point is, Barbarians, and Especially Dwarf barbarians receive so many con enhancements, that it is just not cost effective to max your base con, as you can end up with a higher con score then str even if you focus on str first. Just have to min/max your abilities and enhancements correctly. Yours lacks the hearty rage, which is the most cost effective stat per AP enhancement around, vs power rage IV which is the least cost effective.

Oh and not sure about that extra 84 seconds of rage.. 1 con mod provides +6 seconds of rage, or 12 seconds with extend rage IV.

Sojourner
08-04-2007, 07:46 PM
Ah. Didn't figure in Rage Spell. I almost never base any of my build stats off the assumption that I have a pocket bard/cleric/wiz for buffs. Anything above what I've got listed is a nice extra. Whether I up my STR or my CON, either way he could carry a Rage spell buff, and so it is a wash when discussing builds.

Bu, yeah, did forget to 1.5x the extra point of damage for 2-Handed weapons.

The 84-sec is -- +2 CON = +6 sec rage. Extended IV = 12 seconds. Times 7 rages = 84 seconds.

So -

1-2 points of damage on a swing (depending on the 1.5 rounding up or down) and 4-5 points on a crit (Again, depending on rounding)
VS.
14 HP and 84 sec of rage


As for the +3 STR tome -- I don't generally make gear dependent builds. Yes - you can eke out an extra point of damage here and there once you get that tome. But you're doing the same amount of damage with less HP and rage until you do.

Once I hit level 16 and have another stat point, or once I pick up a +3 STR/CON tome, I'll probably take a look at moving some of the enhancements around to even those scores back out again.

If I can get hold of a +3 STR - I'll probably drop the Power Rage 4 for something else, although not sure it would be Hearty Rage. Possibly more Dwarven Axe Damage, or another of the Dwarf/Barb Toughness APs. With the new version of the toughness APs you can get 15 HP all the time versus 14 HP only when raged.

If I can get a +3 CON then I would probably either find a matching +6 CON item to go with it, or possibly use my level 16 attribute raise to even it back out again..

Shade
08-04-2007, 08:22 PM
Planing for lvl16 is just stupid. You have no idea what lvl16 will bring. You can't say, oh its +1 stat. I highly doubt that. People planed for lvl12s +1 stat and I warned them that there ideas will fail because this is not PnP. I was right, there builds failed, simple as that.. Around that time more then just +1 stat came, the whole games enhancement system changed, making any predictions fail, and they became horribly gimped (12/2 barbarian/fighter multiclasses who did it to gain extra strength - in the end lost a ton of DPS from no critical rage)

Fact is, youll always be behind in str what you could be. As i pointed out. your con will be the same. The idea of a build with over 20+ minuits of rage not using rage enhancements for con because they only work while raged is just laughable. Just as laughable as thinking you can't keep rage spell up often, any noob can afford an unlimited supply of rage potions.. And it really isn't difficult to group with a good wiz/sorc/bard most of the time.

I've had a maxxed barbarian since closed beta. I know what works and what doesn't, your loss to not take my advice.

Sojourner
08-04-2007, 09:55 PM
Planing for lvl16 is just stupid. You have no idea what lvl16 will bring.

Well, it should bring a +1 stat raise (4/8/12/16). Other than that - nobody knows what it will bring. And, like you said - any currently viable build could be wiped out by something they introduce tomorrow.

But, where you say that taking future level increases into account is stupid, I would say that not doing so is. I wouldn't create a build centered around a possible Crit Rage III because there is no guarantee there will be such a thing. But I will consider a +1 stat bump at 16 because it is very unlikely that there won't be one.



Fact is, youll always be behind in str what you could be. As i pointed out. your con will be the same.

Still not seeing how without that +3 tome.
And, while I wouldn't call building around a +3 tome stupid, it isn't the way I would do it.

Thinking about it a bit more, if I were to rebuild this guy, I would probably do this:
* Move one level point from CON to STR
* Drop Power Rage IV
* Add Dwarven CON II
* Add Hardy Rage II

Would give you this:
+1 STR when not raged (no real benefit)
+2 CON when raged.
+12 sec rage / rage (84 sec total)
+14 HP when raged
+1 Fort Save when raged


Think I'll edit the OP to show this as a preferred change.



Just as laughable as thinking you can't keep rage spell up often, any noob can afford an unlimited supply of rage potions.. And it really isn't difficult to group with a good wiz/sorc/bard most of the time.

True. But, I still refuse to put optional buffs like that into a build. Some people like to show what their build can do if they have an entire party behind them buffing them constantly. I prefer to show what a build can do before the buffs and then let people add on what they can get hold of.




I've had a maxxed barbarian since closed beta. I know what works and what doesn't, your loss to not take my advice.

You may have sigs turned off so you don't see mine. But, welcome to the group. I keep my founding Barb around for nostalgia purposes although he's pretty gimp compared to current builds. Oddly enough, the cleric has made it though all game changes without a scratch is still an incredibly effective build.