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View Full Version : The truth about the New Raid loot system

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 01:38 PM
Probability = number of events/number of likely outcomes

If the probability is already set at 1/6 you have a 16.66% chance of getting raid loot.

if you have more people the probability of getting raid loot is

2/12 =16.66%
3/36 = 16.66%
4/48 = 16.66%
5/60 = 16.66%
6/72 = 16.66%
7/84 = 16.66%
8/96 = 16.66%
9/108 = 16.66%
10/120 = 16.66%
11/132 = 16.66%
12/144 = 16.66%

So if you have 1 or 12 people in your group the chance for getting raid loot as an individual or group is 16.66%. Alternatively there is an 84% chance you will not get raid loot.

That is what this new system means.

Need I say more...

Laith
08-01-2007, 01:40 PM
Probability = number of events/number of likely outcomes

If the probability is already set at 1/6 you have a 16.66% chance of getting raid loot.

if you have more people the probability of getting raid loot is

2/12 =16.66%
3/36 = 16.66%
4/48 = 16.66%
5/60 = 16.66%
6/72 = 16.66%
7/84 = 16.66%
8/96 = 16.66%
9/108 = 16.66%
10/120 = 16.66%
11/132 = 16.66%
12/144 = 16.66%

So if you have 1 or 12 people in your group the chance for getting raid loot as an individual or group is 16.66%. Alternatively there is an 84% chance you will not get raid loot.

That is what this new system means.

Need I say more...

truth is you should check your math.

...and this post has no point.

Ziggy
08-01-2007, 01:46 PM
Probability = number of events/number of likely outcomes

If the probability is already set at 1/6 you have a 16.66% chance of getting raid loot.

if you have more people the probability of getting raid loot is

2/12 =16.66%
3/36 = 16.66%
4/48 = 16.66%
5/60 = 16.66%
6/72 = 16.66%
7/84 = 16.66%
8/96 = 16.66%
9/108 = 16.66%
10/120 = 16.66%
11/132 = 16.66%
12/144 = 16.66%

So if you have 1 or 12 people in your group the chance for getting raid loot as an individual or group is 16.66%. Alternatively there is an 84% chance you will not get raid loot.

That is what this new system means.

Need I say more...
Aye the probability of your piece of loot being raid loot is the same.

however you now have 1-11 other people who also have this chance, and that is not included in your math.

Draclaud
08-01-2007, 01:49 PM
truth is you should check your math.

...and this post has no point.

You should be rewarded is you're good enough to short man raids. Doing it this way is just a way to force us to take putzes along, instead of a solid 4-6 man team. This way is freaking communism.

Cowdenicus
08-01-2007, 01:52 PM
You should be rewarded is you're good enough to short man raids. Doing it this way is just a way to force us to take putzes along, instead of a solid 4-6 man team. This way is freaking communism.

no. and if i post anything else in response i will earn yet more infraction points.

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 01:53 PM
truth is you should check your math.

...and this post has no point.

Ummmm. The math is laid out for you. If it is wrong prove it to me. Don't come on my post and say stupid bs like this...

Laith
08-01-2007, 01:53 PM
You should be rewarded is you're good enough to short man raids. Doing it this way is just a way to force us to take putzes along, instead of a solid 4-6 man team. This way is freaking communism.no other quests in this game promotes forming a smaller team, why should raids be any different?

fact is raids currently promote exclusion. apparently no one views this as a bad thing in a multiplayer game.

sure, it seems perfectly fine if you're included in the "chosen elite". If you're new though, currently there is very little incentive for others to let you in on their raids: afterall, you'll just try and roll on their loot.

The new system doesn't penalize small parties, it just doesn't reward you for it: just like every other quest in DDO.

Uska
08-01-2007, 01:54 PM
no. and if i post anything else in response i will earn yet more infraction points.

Thats why I didnt say anything this time

Lorien_the_First_One
08-01-2007, 01:54 PM
You should be rewarded is you're good enough to short man raids. Doing it this way is just a way to force us to take putzes along, instead of a solid 4-6 man team. This way is freaking communism.

LMAO, no the OTHER was was communism. Under communism the community leader has resources at his/her disposal that he/she allocates to best meet the needs of the group. You know...like the guy with the star saying those 3 need this item the most so they can have a shot at it and the 2 others that want it but I don't think need it get no shot.

Now the new system says everyone has an equal shot and something good happening. If it happens, they can choose to profit by it as they fit. Either by keeping it, or by trading or selling that item. Hm... kinda like a lottery winner in a capitalistic society.

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 02:00 PM
LMAO, no the OTHER was was communism. Under communism the community leader has resources at his/her disposal that he/she allocates to best meet the needs of the group. You know...like the guy with the star saying those 3 need this item the most so they can have a shot at it and the 2 others that want it but I don't think need it get no shot.

Now the new system says everyone has an equal shot and something good happening. If it happens, they can choose to profit by it as they fit. Either by keeping it, or by trading or selling that item. Hm... kinda like a lottery winner in a capitalistic society.

Communism is defined as mob rule.
Dictatorship is what you are refering too.

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 02:00 PM
no other quests in this game promotes forming a smaller team, why should raids be any different?

fact is raids currently promote exclusion. apparently no one views this as a bad thing in a multiplayer game.

sure, it seems perfectly fine if you're included in the "chosen elite". If you're new though, currently there is very little incentive for others to let you in on their raids: afterall, you'll just try and roll on their loot.

The new system doesn't penalize small parties, it just doesn't reward you for it: just like every other quest in DDO.

My point is that this system does not positively affect the outcome of loot drops by having more people in the raid. It won't change anything except that people who run the raids now will have no incentive or disincentive for having more or less people.

If they are going to implement a system like this the probabilities for random loot drops need to go up as more people join the quest. say 1-4 probability is 1-6, 5-8 probability is 1-5, 9-12 probability is 1-4. If Turbine wants us to run 12 man raids that is fine, but a constant probability does not change the fact that with this sytem we will only have a 1-6 chance of getting named loot items from a raid regardless of party size.

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 02:02 PM
Aye the probability of your piece of loot being raid loot is the same.

however you now have 1-11 other people who also have this chance, and that is not included in your math.

Who have the same probability or chance of getting loot of 16.66%. It does not change, and does not stack.

Draclaud
08-01-2007, 02:04 PM
no other quests in this game promotes forming a smaller team, why should raids be any different?

fact is raids currently promote exclusion. apparently no one views this as a bad thing in a multiplayer game.

sure, it seems perfectly fine if you're included in the "chosen elite". If you're new though, currently there is very little incentive for others to let you in on their raids: afterall, you'll just try and roll on their loot.

The new system doesn't penalize exclusion, it just doesn't reward you for it.

It penalizes excellence and rewards mediocrity. This is class warfare pure and simple. If I work hard and make more money than someone who had 15 kids and was a high school drop-out should I be penalized so that they "feel" better about themselves?

No. If we're good enough to do it short-handed, then golly gee I SHOULD be able to have a higher rate of pulling stuff.

You talk about not being in the "chosen elite" are you freaking kidding me? If you're not good enough to be there, then you won't be. This DOES penalize exclusion. On a Dragon raid, we do it 4 man style. I'm damn pround that we are able to, and by all rights our 50% chance of getting raid loot is EARNED by us. This is a flailing attempt to make every one feel "good" about having a better chance...I raise the BS flag. If you need 12 folks to do it, then great you get a 1 in 6 chance of pulling something. If you CAN do it solo, them by golly you SHOULD get them both. Changing the game in midstride isn't good, I don't like it. I'm not leaving (yet). I am a DnD fan not an MMO fan so hopefully they'll have a DDO Faerun sooner rather than later I can bail to.

Shmuel
08-01-2007, 02:05 PM
I'll agree with the poster here. Sorry if some people have more time to play and hence get "better" enough to short man raids, or do stuff more efficiently. Sorry that you don't have the time to put into this game if you want. But this is a really negative change for those of us who short-man any of the raids.

Personally, I just spent the summer rebuilding my ranger such that he can hit the rune, lever, and ranged spot on one side of the VON levers by himself to cut down the number of people we bring on that raid as well. I also spent almost an HOUR helping, guiding, and helping again the one random pug person our group decided to invite to help us do POP elite with our new toons. This was helping him GET to the quest. In that time, I died three times and could probably have finished the quest twice. It was not fun for me, and I thought I was supposed to have fun while playing a GAME. So I will factor in a 3X amt of time for raid as well as the odds of getting a raid item as well as the fact that any one of my toons can really only benefit a lot from one or two of the many items my so called "lucky roll" could get me, at random. And I probably still will not be pugging any raids ever.

I know there will be a bunch of posts saying I'm elitist. I'm not. I'd love to play with you in a year or two after you have put enough time into the game to know where to go and what to do. I'm a schoolteacher during the day. I am not in the mood to spend my play time instructing as well.

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 02:12 PM
I'll agree with the poster here. Sorry if some people have more time to play and hence get "better" enough to short man raids, or do stuff more efficiently. Sorry that you don't have the time to put into this game if you want. But this is a really negative change for those of us who short-man any of the raids.

Personally, I just spent the summer rebuilding my ranger such that he can hit the rune, lever, and ranged spot on one side of the VON levers by himself to cut down the number of people we bring on that raid as well. I also spent almost an HOUR helping, guiding, and helping again the one random pug person our group decided to invite to help us do POP elite with our new toons. This was helping him GET to the quest. In that time, I died three times and could probably have finished the quest twice. It was not fun for me, and I thought I was supposed to have fun while playing a GAME. So I will factor in a 3X amt of time for raid as well as the odds of getting a raid item as well as the fact that any one of my toons can really only benefit a lot from one or two of the many items my so called "lucky roll" could get me, at random. And I probably still will not be pugging any raids ever.

I know there will be a bunch of posts saying I'm elitist. I'm not. I'd love to play with you in a year or two after you have put enough time into the game to know where to go and what to do. I'm a schoolteacher during the day. I am not in the mood to spend my play time instructing as well.

Nice! I almost fell out of my chair on this one______hehehe...

I would have to add that this new system does nothing but punish everyone. It does not favor anyone. It reduces the raids to simply another quest with named items that drop and are bound (even worse). It makes no difference whether you are in a guild, a pugger, an elitist, a zerger, or whatever.

The whole thing stinks, and some of these uneducated jack***** don't get it.

Richard_the_Lion
08-01-2007, 02:14 PM
This change hurts the players who play the most and rewards no one. People are still not going to take people along that pose a threat to the completion of the objective.

There are different levels of players no matter how many loot weekends are thrown out there. There is nothing wrong with there being different levels of players. There are different levels of quests, and different levels of difficulty just for this reason. This game can be played by hardcore, roleplayers, and every of possible mutation of game style there is out there.

I don't understand the attack or nerf on a set group of people who play this game. Why undermine any of the groups or levels of players? What is gained? I really think that of all the things that have happened this is the most likely to drive out a set group of gamers, and it is not going to have any of the supposed desired results. Casual players are not going to gain. Losing the hardcore will only take away their chance of buying nice things on the Auction House from all the other tougher quests in the game.

Ziggy
08-01-2007, 02:15 PM
Who have the same probability or chance of getting loot of 16.66%. It does not change, and does not stack.
I dont know why i bother. enjoy your perception.

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 02:16 PM
I dont know why i bother. enjoy your perception.

Scientific fact. Not perception. I am an economist in real life. 1-6 is 1-6 as 16.66% is 16.66% no matter how you look at it.

Ziggy
08-01-2007, 02:24 PM
Scientific fact. Not perception. I am an economist in real life. 1-6 is 1-6 as 16.66% is 16.66% no matter how you look at it.
Im too darn lazy to retype everyone that techno came up with so ill just quote it.

This is a change (IMO) that helps the casual player and (in some ways) penalises the power gamer.

The objections seem to be;

Less (raid) loot.
More griefing.

This WILL mean more loot for any raid party over 2 people, 100%!

CURRENT: the warded chest only contains 2 raid items

NEW: the warded chest contains 'level appropriate' loot for everyone with a chance at raid loot.

In a 12 man raid there will be as much or more raid loot 63% of the time (and everyone gets something from the warded chest).

I think Turbine is trying to encourage larger raid groups (and more of them).
There is no longer any (loot based) reason to short man the raids.

Probability there are >2 raid items (to nearest %)
12 = 32%
11 = 27%
10 = 22%
9 = 18%
8 = 13%
7 = 10%
6 = 6%
5 = 4%
4 = 2%

This is a Binomial distribution (set number of independent events with same probability)

Here is a JAVA calculator.

http://rockem.stat.sc.edu/prototype/calculators/index.php3?dist=Binomial

n = number events (people in raid party)
p = 0.166667 (1/6 chance a raid item drops)
Prob. X = the chance of that many raid items dropping.

negative
08-01-2007, 02:30 PM
Personally, I just spent the summer rebuilding my ranger such that he can hit the rune, lever, and ranged spot on one side of the VON levers by himself to cut down the number of people we bring on that raid as well. I also spent almost an HOUR helping, guiding, and helping again the one random pug person our group decided to invite to help us do POP elite with our new toons. This was helping him GET to the quest. In that time, I died three times and could probably have finished the quest twice. It was not fun for me, and I thought I was supposed to have fun while playing a GAME. So I will factor in a 3X amt of time for raid as well as the odds of getting a raid item as well as the fact that any one of my toons can really only benefit a lot from one or two of the many items my so called "lucky roll" could get me, at random. And I probably still will not be pugging any raids ever.

So, when my guild takes the time and extra effort to bring a few new PUG people through a 12-man Dragon Raid for their first time, holding their hands, making sure they don't get lost, making sure we don't spoiling things for them, while at the same time making sure neither ourselves or the newbies get killed. In the process giving these new players one of their best experiances in the game, and most likely increasing the amount and length of time they spend playing the game, thus making Turbine more money on account subscriptions, we should get less loot and compensation for our efforts because, well, I guess because we are MORE LEET;) than you, who can't even simply guide a newbie to POP without getting killed three times.

That said, I'm not yet convienced the new system really does benifit casual players, and I'm not convienced that it reduces griefing, it may actually increase it if you are trying to pass/hand out rewards to class appropriate people.

Cowdenicus
08-01-2007, 02:33 PM
Im too darn lazy to retype everyone that techno came up with so ill just quote it.

Aye, can they say PWNED....

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 02:38 PM
Im too darn lazy to retype everyone that techno came up with so ill just quote it.

The problem with the math he did is that he only added to the number of events and not outcomes which is incorrrect (which cause the % chance of getting named loot to increase).

For example, If you roll a 1d6 1 time or 100 the outcome is the same for getting a 1. 1 in 6. If you roll it 100 times probabilty says you will have 16 out of 100 that come up with a 1. Therefore the probability of 1-6 does not change regardless of number of times you roll it because each event is based upon a singular occurance 1-6.

His math is incorrect because P is already set. 1-6, the devs set that. If you change the number of events you have to change the number of outcomes by the same number hence the P always remains constant.

Let me explain in algabraic terms.

X= Y/N

For this statement to be true anything you change on one side has to be changed equally on all sides.

If X = 12, Y = 24, and N = 2, X is true. With the formulay that he used (which is correct), you have to use the same logic as algebra.

The only difference in this case is that the formula is P = NO/NE

Which in this case is P= 1/6 or 1/6 = 2/12, 3/36. 4/48/ etc...

So again the probability doesn't change and the likelyhood of occurance for each event still only averages about 16% (16.66% or 1-6).

negative
08-01-2007, 02:42 PM
Aye, can they say PWNED....

Actually, looking at that tool, all it says is that the more people you bring, the higher the odds of recieving more than one item. But, if all the elitists are right, in that it takes mathematically significantly longer to complete the raid in a 12 man group versus a 4 or 2 man group, then when you run the numbers on a time spent vs. reward, you'll probably find that it evens out.

While the 12 man group is still running the raid, the 4 man group is out running POP elite already.

Cowdenicus
08-01-2007, 02:44 PM
Probability of a named item dropping in raid group with 12 people in raid at
1:6 (approximates)

0 - 11%
1 - 27%
2 - 29%
3 - 19.5%
4 - 9%
5 - 3%
6 - 1%
7 or more < 1%

Ziggy
08-01-2007, 02:46 PM

The problem with the math he did is that he only added to the number of events and not outcomes which is incorrrect (which cause the % chance of getting named loot to increase).

For example, If you roll a 1d6 1 time or 100 the outcome is the same for getting a 1. 1 in 6. If you roll it 100 times probabilty says you will have 16 out of 100 that come up with a 1. Therefore the probability of 1-6 does not change regardless of number of times you roll it because each event is based upon a singular occurance 1-6.

His math is incorrect because P is already set. 1-6, the devs set that. If you change the number of events you have to change the number of outcomes by the same number hence the P always remains constant.

Let me explain in algabraic terms.

X= Y/N

For this statement to be true anything you change on one side has to be changed equally on all sides.

If X = 12, Y = 24, and N = 2, X is true. With the formulay that he used (which is correct), you have to use the same logic as algebra.

The only difference in this case is that the formula is P = NO/NE

Which in this case is P= 1/6 or 1/6 = 2/12, 3/36. 4/48/ etc...

So again the probability doesn't change and the likelyhood of occurance for each event still only averages about 16% (16.66% or 1-6).
and what happens if you roll 12 d6 at the same time? Its been awhile since ive done probability but im pretty sure the chances are better to get 2 6's(hence getting more raid loot.)

Yes the ability to get a 6(or a 1, whichever you prefer) is ~16%, however you have other people rolling as well. you arent just rolling 1 dice, you are now rolling anywhere from 2-12 dice together.

If you are rolling 2 dice and looking for a pair of 6's you dont have 1/6 of a chance, you have 1/36 of a chance.

and if you are rolling 12 dice and hoping for a pair of 6's, you have an even better chance then rolling 2 dice for a pair.

Ziggy
08-01-2007, 02:58 PM
ok. lets think of it this way.

In a 2 man raid, in order for both parties to get an item, they basically need to roll a pair of 6's.

and to get a pair of 6's you have a 1/36 chance
which is a 2.77777778 percent chance of happening.

now using the tool
http://rockem.stat.sc.edu/prototype/calculators/index.php3?dist=Binomial

using n=2, p=.1667, and x=2(meaning both people got raid loot), you have a .0278 chance of getting raid loot.(2.777778%)

Cinwulf
08-01-2007, 02:59 PM
Probability of a named item dropping in raid group with 12 people in raid at
1:6 (approximates)

0 - 11%
1 - 27%
2 - 29%
3 - 19.5%
4 - 9%
5 - 3%
6 - 1%
7 or more < 1%

I believe this is correct; almost the exact figures a guildie concluded for a 12 man raid. Also the less people the greater the chance of getting less than 2 raid items.

Cowdenicus
08-01-2007, 03:00 PM
ok. lets think of it this way.

In a 2 man raid, in order for both parties to get an item, they basically need to roll a pair of 6's.

and to get a pair of 6's you have a 1/36 chance
which is a 2.77777778 percent chance of happening.

now using the tool
http://rockem.stat.sc.edu/prototype/calculators/index.php3?dist=Binomial

using n=2, p=.1667, and x=2(meaning both people got raid loot), you have a .0278 chance of getting raid loot.(2.777778%)

sounds accurate.

Cowdenicus
08-01-2007, 03:02 PM
I believe this is correct; almost the exact figures a guildie concluded for a 12 man raid. Also the less people the greater the chance of getting less than 2 raid items.

it shifts downward pretty quick with less than 10 peeps.

Cinwulf
08-01-2007, 03:07 PM
it shifts downward pretty quick with less than 10 peeps.
yeah, his figures showed on a 9 man raid 54% chance of less than 2 raid items, and on a 6 man raid 74% chance of less than 2 raid items.

Cowdenicus
08-01-2007, 03:14 PM
thank god....

i thought i was gonna have to argue this by myself.

I am an accountant (in training) what can I say. Loot here is equivalent to cash in the real world, I better know my stuff.

OH SNAP

/Ziggy Ninja.

Ziggy
08-01-2007, 03:14 PM
sounds accurate.
thank god....

i thought i was gonna have to argue this by myself.

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 03:31 PM
Notice I said each person has the same probability. However, as a group I could be wrong because 16 people in 100 would get the loot. I'm confused. Let me check again.

:eek: I could be wrong and you could be right.

Don't quote me on that lol.

I just sent my former econometrics professor and statisctics professor the problem.

I am confused now... And actually I don't care anymore and it doesn't matter because the devs never pay attention to us anyway.

Ziggy
08-01-2007, 03:39 PM
Notice I said each person has the same probability. However, as a group I could be wrong because 16 people in 100 would get the loot. I'm confused. Let me check again.

:eek: I could be wrong and you could be right.

Don't quote me on that lol.

too late.:D

Prinstoni
08-01-2007, 03:41 PM
too late.:D

hehe....

Conejo
08-01-2007, 03:46 PM
Thats why I didnt say anything this time

my mouth bleeds far too often due to these forums.

Ziggy
08-01-2007, 03:47 PM
my mouth bleeds far too often due to these forums.

HumanRogue
08-01-2007, 03:48 PM
I think both arguments here are correct but the problem is that you are explaining different things. The OP appears to be explaining that YOUR odds of pulling some named loot are never better than 1/6 (Run the raid 6 times, get one piece of loot). Other posters are showing that if you have more people in the party (12 people to be exact), the PARTY's odds of pulling at least 2 pieces of named loot are better than 1/6.
The problem that I see is that your personal odds of pulling named loot still doesn't get better than 1/6. Personally, I don't think that people who run small groups through the raids will PUG out to fill up because it doesn't benefit them. How does it help them if they can 2 man the reaver but decide to fill up the party to 12 people? Their chances of pulling named loot are the same (1/6). Sure the party may pull more named loot, but the individual doesn't.

Conejo
08-01-2007, 03:50 PM
Actually, looking at that tool, all it says is that the more people you bring, the higher the odds of recieving more than one item. But, if all the elitists are right, in that it takes mathematically significantly longer to complete the raid in a 12 man group versus a 4 or 2 man group, then when you run the numbers on a time spent vs. reward, you'll probably find that it evens out.

While the 12 man group is still running the raid, the 4 man group is out running POP elite already.

but since everyone has the same re-raid timers, those extra few hours don't matter as much.

HumanRogue
08-01-2007, 03:50 PM
You're right, they just changed the raid loot system so that you can actually get more than two items on a whim. They never listen to their players... :rolleyes:

Also changed it so you can get none... (Although you sometimes get none with the current setup anyways :) but now you might get none more often)

NINJA

Grond
08-01-2007, 03:51 PM
I am confused now... And actually I don't care anymore and it doesn't matter because the devs never pay attention to us anyway.

You're right, they just changed the raid loot system so that you can actually get more than two items on a whim. They never listen to their players... :rolleyes:

Conejo
08-01-2007, 03:55 PM
Also changed it so you can get none... (Although you sometimes get none with the current setup anyways :) but now you might get none more often)

i got enough none already, maybe i can trade all my none in for something useful.

either way, now i know exactly what chance i have of getting a piece of raid loot, regardless of the size of the party. i'll take a 16% chance, which has better than my 1% (slightly exaggerated. 1 piece of raid loot ever, over 100 raids) chance this past year and a half.

Gimpster
08-01-2007, 03:56 PM
but since everyone has the same re-raid timers, those extra few hours don't matter as much.
Sure they matter. We do other things in the game besides raid and wait for raid timers to end.

Any hour spent trying to fill up a raid to 12 people is an hour that wasn't played on some other (non-timer) quest.

JelloMold
08-01-2007, 04:14 PM
It penalizes excellence and rewards mediocrity. This is class warfare pure and simple. If I work hard and make more money than someone who had 15 kids and was a high school drop-out should I be penalized so that they "feel" better about themselves?

No. If we're good enough to do it short-handed, then golly gee I SHOULD be able to have a higher rate of pulling stuff.

You talk about not being in the "chosen elite" are you freaking kidding me? If you're not good enough to be there, then you won't be. This DOES penalize exclusion. On a Dragon raid, we do it 4 man style. I'm damn pround that we are able to, and by all rights our 50% chance of getting raid loot is EARNED by us. This is a flailing attempt to make every one feel "good" about having a better chance...I raise the BS flag. If you need 12 folks to do it, then great you get a 1 in 6 chance of pulling something. If you CAN do it solo, them by golly you SHOULD get them both. Changing the game in midstride isn't good, I don't like it. I'm not leaving (yet). I am a DnD fan not an MMO fan so hopefully they'll have a DDO Faerun sooner rather than later I can bail to.

PLEASE tell me that you are roleplaying. Does anyone really get this upset about a game. Dude, I bow to your uberness.

Conejo
08-01-2007, 04:16 PM
Sure they matter. We do other things in the game besides raid and wait for raid timers to end.

Any hour spent trying to fill up a raid to 12 people is an hour that wasn't played on some other (non-timer) quest.

and by "other (non-timer) quest" you mean PoP? :D

rnor6084
08-01-2007, 05:10 PM
PLEASE tell me that you are roleplaying. Does anyone really get this upset about a game. Dude, I bow to your uberness.

Yes, they do get upset. His uberness and ego have been severly bruised. The casual player can get at his loot now and he does not like it one bit.