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Aspenor
08-01-2007, 01:12 PM
Thanks for fishing this one out of cache, Wiglin. I guess I wasn't thorough enough:

***UNDER CONSTRUCTION***
***UNDER CONSTRUCTION***
**DANGER - MEN AT WORK**



Aspenor's Guide to Rolling and Building a Sorceror

First of all, you have to know what you want from your sorceror. Do you want to be a crowd control master? Do you want to be an instant-death killing machine? Or maybe you prefer direct damage/nuking....All of these are viable options. Each type will have different feats, spells, and different enhancement focus.

Firstly, lets start with stats. DDO has peculiar rules regarding caster classes, which differ greatly from PnP. Firstly, and most notably, IMHO at end-game the only stats that matter are your primary casting stat (Charisma, in the case of sorcerors), and your constitution score (governs your hit points). Keep in mind that sorcerors only get 2 skill points + INT modifier per level. Concentration is of utmost importance, because you want your spells to go off when you cast them, you don't want some monster hitting you to stop it. UMD is a common favorite, and a high level sorceror can use raise dead scrolls if he/she is properly equipped. Maxxing both these skills will take ALL your base skill points.

It is thus my recommendation to start all sorcerors with enough intelligence to gain 3 skill points per level. My three skills I chose were concentration, UMD, and jump. Jump is for evasive maneuvering, and is incredibly useful for avoiding damage. YOU WILL NOT want to stand still when mobs attack you.
PS RE: SKILLS--You may choose to take diplomacy instead of jump. Diplomacy ROCKS for a sorceror, and I will get around to explaining that later.

My recommended Starting stats, drow sorceror
STR-8
DEX-10
CON-14
INT-12
WIS-8
CHA-20

Skill points spent AT EVERY LEVEL in UMD, jump, and concentration. (PS-OR DIPLOMACY INSTEAD OF JUMP)

Feats (in Order): (Drow)
Maximize
Extend
Heighten
Spell focus: Enchantment
Empower

Feats (in Order): (Human)
Maximize
Extend
Heighten
Spell focus: Enchantment
Empower
Spell Penetration


These spell choices are those of the "Generalist," often enchantment-based sorceror.

Spell choices: 1st level
Charm Person, Niacs
At first level you will want to be able to short-man quests, and you will want to be able to take control of the baddies to fight for you. Charm Person works on kobolds and hobgoblins, the common enemies in the early game. Niacs is for damage output. It is the highest damage spell for first level available, and it works well on early mobs, especially casters. A sorceror should remember melee mobs have low will, and caster mobs have low dex, so charm the fighting types
and kill the caster types.

Spell Choice: 2nd level
Hypnotism
Will save spell, useful for making groups of mobs stand still. A sorceror can spam cast 2-3 hypnotisms and render entire crowds immobile. I recommend taking this at 2nd level to help control crowds.
Alternative: Burning hands
Burning hands is a good low level damage spell for groups of monsters, and taking burning hands at second level also allows the sorceror to be more effective against undead, since ice does not work on skeletons.

Spell Choice: 3rd Level
Burning Hands
See above, alternative spell is hypnotism.

Spell Choice: 4th level
Web or Resist Energy
Web is the fundamental crowd control spell in the game. Learn it, use it, and master it. Being able to use this spell effectively will help you use others later down the line. Resist energy is a MUST HAVE for a sorceror. Taking this spell early also makes your sorceror more able to short-man quests for quicker experience. You can make due with your first level spells for CC and damage.

Spell Choice: 5th Level
Web or Resist Energy
Whichever one is not chosen at 4th, take it at 5th.

Spell Chice: 6th Level
Haste
Everybody loves haste. You know you can't live without it. At low levels there is nothing like hasting a fighter.

Now's when it gets hairy. Around 6th level, you no longer need some early spells, and you are in need of different spells for the quests you are in.
For example, Stormcleave is a common 6-8 experience quest, and the giant at the end canot be harmed by Niac's. However, crowd control is necessary for this quest, and it would be awful tough to give up one of your CC spells. At 6th level I recommend dropping burning hands for magic missle, simply for use in killing the giant. If you feel you can count
on your fighters to do this, this change may not be necessary.
Spell Swap- Burning Hands for Magic Missile

Spell Choice: 7th Level
2nd Level - Blur
3rd Level - Fireball
Blur will be your first defensive buff. KEEP YOURSELF BLURRED. You have no AC. Damage avoidance is your only way to survive. Fireball replaces burning hands as your AoE killer.

Recommended spell swap at 7th level:
Niac's for Jump
Niacs is no longer your primary killing spell. Fireball is a reflex save, and performs just as well as Niacs. Jump is necessary for evasive maneuvering.
Jump is a must-have for a 14th level caster.

Spell Choice: 8th level
8th level spell selection is very subjective. It depends on your build. Are you an instant-death build? You want PK. Are you a direct damage build? You want firewall. Are you a charm build? Charm monster.
My chosen spell at this level is PK. It generates very little aggro, and is a useful for a quick-kill on a threatening mob.

Spell Choices: 9th level
W))T!! We get 3 spells this level!
2nd Level - Scorching Ray
3rd Level - Displacement
4th Level - Wall of Fire
Displacement is a MUST HAVE for a sorceror. 50% miss chance will save your tail ALOT. Use this spell, and use it often when you get aggro.
Scorching ray - staple high level damage spell. At low levels it is less useful, due to 1 ray only. It now has 2.
Wall of Fire - Staple damage spell. Learn to love it. You'll be jumping around in it like a jackrabbit on crack.

Spell Choices: 10th level
5th level - Hold Monster
Hold Monster is your new Melee destruction spell. Being attacked by a fighter type mob? HOLD THEM. Will save spell.

Recommended spell swap:
Hypnotism for Nightshield
With your casting speed on hold monster, hypnotism is not necessary. Use web for group control, if necessary. More mobs cast magic missles and force missiles at high levels, including the Stormreaver. Magic missles are unavoidable damage, and this simple spell lasts for 1min/level, and absorbs all missile effects. It also gives resistance bonus to saves.

Spell Choices: 11th Level
3rd Level - Protection from energy
4th Level - Stoneskin
5th Level - Cone of Cold
I R SQUISSHEEEE
Displacement and stoneskin is the BEST armor class in the game. Use it, love it. Live it.
Protection from energy may seem like it is unnecessary, but you won't think so when you get hit with 100 damage lightning and 180 damage polar rays. Damage mitigation is your friend. Cone of Cold is your new burning hands, except much better. Especially useful on fire monsters (14th level crits up to 2000-ish).

Spell choices: 12th level
6th Level - Flesh to Stone
This spell is your new caster-stopper. It is a fort save, and clerics/caster types have low con. Use it, and love it. Spam it, if you must.

Spell Choices: 13th Level
4th Level-Enervation
5th level-Dominate Person
6th Level-Greater Heroism
Enervation is your debuff spell. Hit tough mobs with an enervation (it has no save) and then PK to your heart's content.
Dominate Person is your new charm person. Many HIGH level mobs are PEOPLE, including Gnolls, Dwarfs, Elves, Humans, and Goblins. GH-you don't want to be casting GH from scrolls, unless you're rolling in cash. Plus, you can extend the buff from your mana.

Possible Spell Swap, depending on preference
You may wish to keep web, but I find myself with no shortage of spells to throw with this build. I swap web for false life, free temp. hit points from mana.

Spell Choice: 14th Level
7th - Otto's Dancing Sphere
The staple high level crowd control spell. This spell works on monsters, animals, people, demons, everything except undead and vermin. This is your new "crowd" control.

*Comments on SF: Enchant & Playing sorcerors*
Sorcerors have an uncanny ability to run through quests using nothing but charms and damage when needed. The SF: Enchantment feat helps each charm to stick, so that less recasting is necessary. I would explain further why I feel it is so necessary for charms to work well, but I don't want my playstyle nerfed. :)

amysrevenge
08-01-2007, 02:40 PM
Yay!

And I only had to gain one level without the helpful guide.

Luckily, since it was level 6, I could remember Haste and Extend Spell. :)

Varis
08-01-2007, 03:12 PM
what's with all the mental toughness and improved mental toughness hate?

Aspenor
08-01-2007, 03:31 PM
what's with all the mental toughness and improved mental toughness hate?

When you are a sorceror with approximately 1600 spell points, spending a feat on another 70 spell points (not even 2 casts of a 7th level spell) is pointless.

Borror0
08-01-2007, 04:03 PM
When you are a sorceror with approximately 1600 spell points, spending a feat on another 70 spell points (not even 2 casts of a 7th level spell) is pointless.

My point on this is more like:

A wizard got 3 bonus metamagic feat so he can afford MT and I:MT. Sorcerer got more spell point and less feats. So he got to choose his priority. Other feats , like Spell Focuses, are more mana efficient than MT or I:MT. Why, because casting the same level 7 spell twice cost more than MT could give you, thus Sepll Focus is taken and MT is left alone playing in his sandbox.

Aspenor
08-01-2007, 04:08 PM
My point on this is more like:

A wizard got 3 bonus metamagic feat so he can afford MT and I:MT. Sorcerer got more spell point and less feats. So he got to choose his priority. Other feats , like Spell Focuses, are more mana efficient than MT or I:MT. Why, because casting the same level 7 spell twice cost more than MT could give you, thus Sepll Focus is taken and MT is left alone playing in his sandbox.

Basically the same argument with better wording.

The marginal benefit from a spell focus or other metamagic is much greater than the SP provided by mental toughness feats.

Varis
08-02-2007, 03:08 AM
perhaps if you are a crowd control junkie...

what about nuke spec sorcs? My black dragon robe is doing just fine with focus+ greater focus

I don't know about you, but my sorc has 1881 mana, not 1600 and I need every scrap of it.

extend? convenience! If you need to extend a spell you are taking too long.
enlarge? again convenience... it does absolutly NOTHING to improve the spell you cast.

heighten, empower, maximise... THERE is an obvious change, not just fluff.

If you are a finger junky or hold monster anything that moves then I can understand you taking focus feats but that is NOT a general build.

That is a specialized build. (hell it's even in the feat description: spell "FOCUS")

so a GENERAL build has empower, maximise, heighen, mental toughness, improved mental toughness.




also.. if 70 mana is not a lot for you... why the hell do you bother with the mana enhancements, power or wizardry items?

That's like a 2hander barbarian thinking 200 hp's is enough or a tank thinking 40 AC will cut it....


A sorcerer has to worry about TWO things to be effective and that's MANA and CHARISMA. Sacrificing a bit on either can have a good reason but it is certainly moving away from a basic build.

Aspenor
08-02-2007, 07:57 AM
perhaps if you are a crowd control junkie...

what about nuke spec sorcs? My black dragon robe is doing just fine with focus+ greater focus

I don't know about you, but my sorc has 1881 mana, not 1600 and I need every scrap of it.

extend? convenience! If you need to extend a spell you are taking too long.
enlarge? again convenience... it does absolutly NOTHING to improve the spell you cast.

heighten, empower, maximise... THERE is an obvious change, not just fluff.

If you are a finger junky or hold monster anything that moves then I can understand you taking focus feats but that is NOT a general build.

That is a specialized build. (hell it's even in the feat description: spell "FOCUS")

so a GENERAL build has empower, maximise, heighen, mental toughness, improved mental toughness.




also.. if 70 mana is not a lot for you... why the hell do you bother with the mana enhancements, power or wizardry items?

That's like a 2hander barbarian thinking 200 hp's is enough or a tank thinking 40 AC will cut it....


A sorcerer has to worry about TWO things to be effective and that's MANA and CHARISMA. Sacrificing a bit on either can have a good reason but it is certainly moving away from a basic build.

1600 mana isn't taking into account items, which I purposely did because I don't want to get new players making unrealistic expectations of themselves.

I am sorry but mental toughness is a complete waste on a sorceror. 70 spell points is nothing to you. Feats can be spent in more useful places.

Extend is for my convenience, yes. I like extended displacement and haste, so kill me. It's more useful than a paltry 70 spell points.

You apparently didn't read the last copy of this thread, where I had to point out to people time and time again that this thread is here to help new caster-players, not as advice to people who already play them.

Your analogy in closing is a straw man fallacy (thanks Merc) and has nothing to do with the issue in question.

What about a nuking sorc? If you didn't know, this is part 1 man. I have already written part 2 (the instant kill sorc) and am working on part 3 (the nuker).

I am not going to even bother making arguments about the above build any longer, because I am sick of dealing with having to explain what really matters to a sorceror.

Varis
08-02-2007, 08:46 AM
1600 mana isn't taking into account items, which I purposely did because I don't want to get new players making unrealistic expectations of themselves.

I am sorry but mental toughness is a complete waste on a sorceror. 70 spell points is nothing to you. Feats can be spent in more useful places.

Extend is for my convenience, yes. I like extended displacement and haste, so kill me. It's more useful than a paltry 70 spell points.

You apparently didn't read the last copy of this thread, where I had to point out to people time and time again that this thread is here to help new caster-players, not as advice to people who already play them.

Your analogy in closing is a straw man fallacy (thanks Merc) and has nothing to do with the issue in question.

What about a nuking sorc? If you didn't know, this is part 1 man. I have already written part 2 (the instant kill sorc) and am working on part 3 (the nuker).

I am not going to even bother making arguments about the above build any longer, because I am sick of dealing with having to explain what really matters to a sorceror.


well if you are sick of making arguments about your build then just call this "Aspenors Sorc builds and tips" and have the thread locked.

If you think you represent all sorcerers on DDO making this guide and don't need input or dare I say it... criticism, then you are an arrogant fool.

It does not matter if you played your sorcerer before alpha and play every waking hour, others have a good grasp on the concept and playstyle as well.
In fact many here also have a very good idea about 3.5 and so can make some pretty educated guesses on what will be viable in the future and what is a neat trick for 14th level.

mental toughness AND improved mental toughness add quite a bit of mana at 14th and will add a ton more by the time we get to 20th level. Well worth the mana points especially in light of the metamagic changes.

Aspenor
08-02-2007, 09:08 AM
mental toughness AND improved mental toughness add quite a bit of mana at 14th and will add a ton more by the time we get to 20th level. Well worth the mana points especially in light of the metamagic changes.
Do you even know the metamagic changes? Spells are all going to be cheaper.

Aspenor
08-02-2007, 09:09 AM
mental toughness AND improved mental toughness add quite a bit of mana at 14th and will add a ton more by the time we get to 20th level. Well worth the mana points especially in light of the metamagic changes.


and if you take mental toughness as your level 15 and level 18 feats, you gain the same mana as you do from taking them at levels 1 and 3. You do not need to worry about mana at this point in the game, so add versatility and spell-hitting power. If you can't see the logic behind that, I can't help you.

I have laughed at every person that claims all that matters to a sorceror is charisma level and number of spell points. This is completely wrong.

Borror0
08-02-2007, 09:24 AM
well if you are sick of making arguments about your build then just call this "Aspenors Sorc builds and tips" and have the thread locked.

If you think you represent all sorcerers on DDO making this guide and don't need input or dare I say it... criticism, then you are an arrogant fool.

It does not matter if you played your sorcerer before alpha and play every waking hour, others have a good grasp on the concept and playstyle as well.
In fact many here also have a very good idea about 3.5 and so can make some pretty educated guesses on what will be viable in the future and what is a neat trick for 14th level.

mental toughness AND improved mental toughness add quite a bit of mana at 14th and will add a ton more by the time we get to 20th level. Well worth the mana points especially in light of the metamagic changes.

Put altogether, MT and I:MT give 150 SP. Now, how often do mobs save against your Empowered+Maximized+Fireball that costs 80 SP? Each time he saves, you loose 40 SP! So, if a mob saves four times, you lost the benefit of MT AND I:MT. Now, say you take SF:Evocation and GSF:Evocation, that might make you more mana efficient, don't ya think?

If you're playing with lv 7 spells, that's only two spells you have to miss to waste more than 150 SP! Now, don't go and tell me mobs never save against your spells! ;)

Aspenor
08-02-2007, 09:29 AM
A proper spell focus feat in your spell type of choice will increase your mana efficiency beyond the benefit of mental toughness. You have my personal guarantee on that.

Aspenor
08-02-2007, 09:44 AM
If you're playing with lv 7 spells, that's only two spells you have to miss to waste more than 150 SP! Now, don't go and tell me mobs never save against your spells! ;)

One time a mob saved on my spells, I think he was a red named. :D :rolleyes: :cool:

DelScorcho
08-02-2007, 10:22 AM
Yay, the guide is back. I can resume leveling my sorc!

Borror0
08-02-2007, 10:24 AM
One time a mob saved on my spells, I think he was a red named. :D :rolleyes: :cool:

Was not refering to you... -_-

Varis
08-02-2007, 12:46 PM
A proper spell focus feat in your spell type of choice will increase your mana efficiency beyond the benefit of mental toughness. You have my personal guarantee on that.

yes... for that school... so if you SF: enchantment... what about ALL the other schools?

is it gonna help me with nuking?
is it gonna help me with finger of death?

the benefit is situational while mana is universal.


and no, I don't have a problem with landing spells. The DC is 30 with a 34 cha, heighten and a +1 focus item. Not the best but close enough. The extra 5% chance to land a spell OF A CERTAIN SCHOOL does NOT make such a difference.

Aspenor
08-02-2007, 12:51 PM
yes... for that school... so if you SF: enchantment... what about ALL the other schools?

is it gonna help me with nuking?
is it gonna help me with finger of death?

the benefit is situational while mana is universal.


and no, I don't have a problem with landing spells. The DC is 30 with a 34 cha, heighten and a +1 focus item. Not the best but close enough. The extra 5% chance to land a spell OF A CERTAIN SCHOOL does NOT make such a difference.


I fail to see your point. This is obvious to anybody, and doesn't back up your previous posts in any way.

amysrevenge
08-02-2007, 02:05 PM
As far as efficiency goes, depending on the saves of the mobs MT/IMT or SF/GSF could be nore efficient.

Let's have two sorcs, S1 with SF/GSF, and S2 with MT/IMT.

Let's say that you have 1700 SPs (S1), or 1850 (S2). The difference in mana is 8.8%.


Further, let's imagine a couple of scenarios (the real scenario is likely different from these extremes).

In the first case, average mobs save against your spells on a roll of 19+ (S1) or 17+ (S2). Thus, 90% of all spells succeed for S1, and 80% of all spells succeed for S2. This means that S2 has to cast 9/8 as many spells to have the same number of successes -> 12.5% more mana spent. S1 has the advantage, as S2 only has 8.8% more mana.

In the second case, average mobs save against your spells on a roll of 5+ (S1) or 3+ (S2). thus, 20% of all spells succeed for S1, and 10% succeed for S2. S2 has to cast 2/1 as many spells -> 100% more mana. S1 has a HUGE advantage.

The only time that S2 has an advantage are cases when: a) mobs need a 20 to save anyway (in which case raising the DC even higher has no benefit) or b) you are casting spells with no saving throw (such as scorching ray or wall of fire) or c) mobs have SR (in which case both choices will fail/succeed just as often and S2's ability to cast more spells wins out).

(Let me know if I am missing anything here)

Mike

Varis
08-02-2007, 02:15 PM
A proper spell focus feat in your spell type of choice will increase your mana efficiency beyond the benefit of mental toughness. You have my personal guarantee on that.


so I said...

yes... for that school... so if you SF: enchantment... what about ALL the other schools?

is it gonna help me with nuking?
is it gonna help me with finger of death?

the benefit is situational while mana is universal.



I don't understand how this is so hard to understand...

Borror0
08-02-2007, 02:19 PM
so I said...

yes... for that school... so if you SF: enchantment... what about ALL the other schools?

is it gonna help me with nuking?
is it gonna help me with finger of death?

the benefit is situational while mana is universal.



I don't understand how this is so hard to understand...

Varis, seriously, you don't seem to understand the purppose of this guide. This guide are for Generalist, often enchantement sorc. You want to go FoD/PK trigger happy? Read his Insta-kill guide. Want to go nuking? Let him finish his nuking guide.

Aspenor knows what he's doing. and this build is not about nuking.

Aspenor
08-02-2007, 02:19 PM
so I said...

yes... for that school... so if you SF: enchantment... what about ALL the other schools?

is it gonna help me with nuking?
is it gonna help me with finger of death?

the benefit is situational while mana is universal.



I don't understand how this is so hard to understand...

And if you properly choose what spells to cast and when, your SF enchantment will increase your mana efficiency beyond the point where MT offers benefit. If you haven't noticed, THERE IS NO finger of death in the above build, so that question is completely moot.

If you want to improve your FOD, you take SF: Necromancy, not mental toughness.

In DDO, to increase nuking power, you focus on enhancements, NOT feats. Feats are virtually USELESS in DDO for increasing damage capabilities for spells.

I am sorry but MT and IMT are wizard feats, not sorceror feats. They are available to sorcerors, but they are a poor choice.

Varis
08-02-2007, 05:06 PM
And if you properly choose what spells to cast and when, your SF enchantment will increase your mana efficiency beyond the point where MT offers benefit. If you haven't noticed, THERE IS NO finger of death in the above build, so that question is completely moot.

If you want to improve your FOD, you take SF: Necromancy, not mental toughness.

In DDO, to increase nuking power, you focus on enhancements, NOT feats. Feats are virtually USELESS in DDO for increasing damage capabilities for spells.

I am sorry but MT and IMT are wizard feats, not sorceror feats. They are available to sorcerors, but they are a poor choice.


well if you insist that spell focus belongs in a generalist build then feel free. I don't share that opinion but I don't have to.

Instead of argueing the generalist sorc to death, I'll let you get to the nuker (my specialty). We can take it from there.

Borror0
08-02-2007, 05:27 PM
well if you insist that spell focus belongs in a generalist build then feel free. I don't share that opinion but I don't have to.

Instead of argueing the generalist sorc to death, I'll let you get to the nuker (my specialty). We can take it from there.

OoC Varis, define me the spell list of a generalist sorc.

blaten22
08-02-2007, 07:26 PM
well if you insist that spell focus belongs in a generalist build then feel free. I don't share that opinion but I don't have to.

Instead of argueing the generalist sorc to death, I'll let you get to the nuker (my specialty). We can take it from there.

I don't think the idea of saying that because he chose the feats its not a generalist build. The idea of the game *correct me if i'm wrong* that most people worry bout CC first, Dps second. *least i hope so...am old school :P*...Any point in time if you mistakenly over nuke, you'll have a easier time especially at lower lvl's to land a will save spell than with out it.

I have MT and IMT on my wizard...its not game breaking, and infact swapped them for SF and GSF later because of my belief your better off being efficent with what you have, then having X mob resisting or in case of PK missing the will save but making his fort save 3-4 times in a row...you've easily spent the 150ish sp's that MT and IMT give you.

Just my 2cp

Tenstar SuperNova

Varis
08-03-2007, 03:07 AM
OoC Varis, define me the spell list of a generalist sorc.

I'll give it a try


1st:
Hypno
Jump
Shield
MM

2nd:
scorching ray
resist energy
web
blur

3rd:
Fireball
protection from elements
haste
displacement

4th:
stoneskin
wall of fire
enervation
Solid Fog

5th:
Cone of Cold
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster

6th:
Greater Heroism
Flesh to stone

7th:
Finger of death


there that's from the top of my head. Plenty of nukes, insta kill, dominate, buffs, and crowd control.

some minor stuff can be tweaked like take ottos dance sphere instead of finger of death and in turn take phantasmal killer instead of enervation.

But as it is, I think that would make a great generalist spelllist.

NoLimHoldem
08-03-2007, 01:40 PM
Oops, ment to start a new post

Aspenor
08-03-2007, 02:14 PM
I'll give it a try


1st:
Hypno
Jump
Shield
MM

2nd:
scorching ray
resist energy
web
blur

3rd:
Fireball
protection from elements
haste
displacement

4th:
stoneskin
wall of fire
enervation
Solid Fog

5th:
Cone of Cold
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster

6th:
Greater Heroism
Flesh to stone

7th:
Finger of death


there that's from the top of my head. Plenty of nukes, insta kill, dominate, buffs, and crowd control.

some minor stuff can be tweaked like take ottos dance sphere instead of finger of death and in turn take phantasmal killer instead of enervation.

But as it is, I think that would make a great generalist spelllist.

Just so you know, that list is *exactly* the same as the spell list in my OP, except substitute Ottos Sphere for FoD, and PK for solid fog.

Jarlaxel
08-04-2007, 05:41 AM
I am reading these threads about the arguement between MT/IMT and Spell focas feats. My question is this, if this is a general sorcerer build guide why specialize in a school of focus at all? I realize Aspenor is leaning towards generalist with a touch of enchantment. Which is fine, however, I believe the key to a general sorcerer build is diversity and with diversity you are casting many spells that you do not have a school focus for. I personally, am a generalist sorcerer with mt/imt. I have spent a lot of dragonshards experimenting with sf/gsf. I am a lvl 14 human with a 30 charisma. I use a superior V potency scepter, and a +1enchantment/illusion scepter in the other hand. I wear a belt of the seven ideals. I am a cc, buffer, nuker, and instant deather. I use all the spells in the right situations. So my point is, as a general sorcerer why limit myself to 1 or 2 school focuses when I only use those spells 35% of the time. For example, POP elite, depending on my mood I will buff the party, (Stone skin, blur, greater heroism, resists,) Then continue to dominate person the entire hallway, march up to skelly, and then take my charmies from room to room. While in each room I will throw down a disco ball or firewall depending on the room and watch the party and charmies do the rest. Then after we grab the orbs and chests, shrine. Now I have a full mana bar for Cochila. (Mana management is essential.) Drop maximized, extended firewalls on cochila and with 1700+ spell points I can light up the room like a bonfire and watch him burn. If I want to change it up the process is the same except instead of dominating person I will enervate/phantasmal kill the hallway mobs.
Another example, cabal for 1 elite. Buff the party, enervate/phantasmal kill the casters or any mob causing trouble. Disco ball the doorway to the rooms, and then nuke the hell out of the king. Now between buffing, enchantment, instant death spells, and nuking why would I want to specialize in a specific focus? The point is, I am using so many variety and diverse spells not specific to a focus feat that to me having more mana is more important than specializing. (Unless I choose a build to be only 1 type of caster. Aka nuker, instant death caster)
I mentioned before I did a lot of experimenting and I have been very dissapointed in sf/gsf feats. I found that I don't need sf/gsp for enchanting. With Heighten I can dominate person just fine without it on elite content. I rarely use hold monster, and hympnotism works awsome with heighten. My opinion, enchantment focus, not necessary. I tried illusion sf/gsf for phantasmal killer, and to my dismay? the mobs in gianthold still saved!!! As I stated before I wield a +1illusion/enchantment scepter. I believe those stack with the focus feats. I was expecting them to die 95% of the time on the first cast. it still took 2 tries 50% of the time. So, if its going to take my 2 tries 50% of the time with and without the focus feats, I decided mental/imp mt was more useful. And believe me it usually doesn't take me more than 2 tries with mt/imp mt. Also is the spell focus feat really worth getting for 1 or 2spells? A +1 or +2 to resist to the DC in my opinion doesnt seem to make a whole lot of difference. I wasted feats just for them to continue to save all the friggen time? Might as well take the extra mana and invest it in buffing and CC. Now I know, a whole bunch of people are going to disagree with me and tell me I am wrong the spf/gsf feats work blah blah blah. Heres the math blah blah blah. Maybe I dont have uber eq? maybe I don't have a 34 charisma? But again in my experience and play style having more mana to spread around to a variety of different spells from different schools is better than only using 1 or a few spells from 1 or 2 school focuses. If that is what you want to do, than in my opinion that is playing a specializing caster not a general caster.
Aspenor has a solid build and he is an expert in this field. I disagree with him saying mt/imt is a poor choice. 150 extra sp is very helpful to a diverse caster. i would also recommend not taking both empowered and maximize. It is redundant and not necessary. If you manage your mana well most end bosses will burn and die quickely with a maximized/extended or empowered/extended firewall. Having both is a waste of mana and overkill. Pick one or the other but dont waste a feat on both.

Borror0
08-04-2007, 06:03 PM
I'll give it a try


1st:
Hypno **<-- Enchantement
Jump
Shield
MM

2nd:
scorching ray
resist energy
web
blur

3rd:
Fireball
protection from elements
haste
displacement

4th:
stoneskin
wall of fire
enervation or PK
Solid Fog

5th:
Cone of Cold
Dominate Monster <-- Enchantement
Hold Monster <-- Enchantement

6th:
Greater Heroism
Flesh to stone

7th:
Finger of death Or Disco Ball <-- Enchantement


there that's from the top of my head. Plenty of nukes, insta kill, dominate, buffs, and crowd control.

some minor stuff can be tweaked like take ottos dance sphere instead of finger of death and in turn take phantasmal killer instead of enervation.

But as it is, I think that would make a great generalist spelllist.

Ahem

Steadfast
08-04-2007, 08:38 PM
What's the best alignment for this build (and why)?

Steadfast

blaten22
08-04-2007, 09:54 PM
if your into the chaos guards lawful is the way to go from my understanding. Have heard though in the upper lvl's from others though that some Mob's have a attack that does extra dmg to lawful characters. At 13 though i haven't encountered any of them to my knowledge. will see if i can find the post after work

Tenstar SuperNova
Glindor SpellSlinger

Borror0
08-05-2007, 12:11 AM
What's the best alignment for this build (and why)?

Steadfast

True Neutral, since you will put points into UMD


You can use 'Taint of Evil' items
You are protected from Unholy weapons
You are protected from Axiomatic weapons
You are protected from Anarchic weapons
Since you can raise from scrolls, the Ring of Ancestors is of no use.

Aspenor
08-05-2007, 02:54 AM
What's the best alignment for this build (and why)?

Steadfast

What he said ^ ^

True Neutral.

Katianara
08-05-2007, 04:11 AM
Put altogether, MT and I:MT give 150 SP. Now, how often do mobs save against your Empowered+Maximized+Fireball that costs 80 SP? Each time he saves, you loose 40 SP! So, if a mob saves four times, you lost the benefit of MT AND I:MT. Now, say you take SF:Evocation and GSF:Evocation, that might make you more mana efficient, don't ya think?

If you're playing with lv 7 spells, that's only two spells you have to miss to waste more than 150 SP! Now, don't go and tell me mobs never save against your spells! ;)

You're looking at this incorrectly by using the assumption that a greater focus in a specific school makes that spell unresistable / savable.

The truth is, putting two feats into mt, imt gets a sorcerer ~10% more mp, while putting two feats into a specific focus nets a sorcerer a 10% greater chance to fully land that type of spell.

It's a matter of preference.

Varis
08-05-2007, 09:58 AM
You're looking at this incorrectly by using the assumption that a greater focus in a specific school makes that spell unresistable / savable.

The truth is, putting two feats into mt, imt gets a sorcerer ~10% more mp, while putting two feats into a specific focus nets a sorcerer a 10% greater chance to fully land that type of spell.

It's a matter of preference.

Well said!

Nothing wrong with spell focus, especially if you are a crowd control caster but being a bit more mana efficient with 3-4 spells is only worth it when those spells define your character. (ex: enchanter, necromancer, etc)

Also Aspenor, nothing wrong with our spell selection. Any experienced sorcerer will have something similar. The big differences are feat selection and enhancement point allocation.

I would still petition you consider a GENERAL build to include MT and IMT and save the spell focus for the crowd control build.

Lithic
08-05-2007, 10:42 AM
Asp only has a lvl 1 sorc!!! NOooooooooOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOOB!

Hehe j/k :P

Ive recently-ish rolled a sorc (Psyk, human, lvl 14, hold-specced build) and went with both the focus/greater focus and the mental/improved mental toughness feats. Also chose the spell pen/greater spell pen feats since I hate monsters with SR. Later on, I decided I needed maximize if I wanted to solo the same stuff as on my wizard (bosses are a huge pain without maximize), so I switched out greater spell pen. The very next day I went through POP and those stupid cat-men made me regret my choice.

Then I decided that the SR raid was enough to make me get the extend feat, so I swapped out improved mental toughness. Trust me when I tell you that I do NOT miss those spell points. Next dragonshard I find will mean that Psyk loses mental toughness and regains greater spell penetration. In my case, I noticed it is a lot easier to play with 150 SP less than it is to see your hold monster spell fizzle.

Truth be told, Ive had a wizard since near-launch, so I know how it is to survive with only 1300 SP, let alone 1600+ hehe.

Borror0
08-05-2007, 01:22 PM
You're looking at this incorrectly by using the assumption that a greater focus in a specific school makes that spell unresistable / savable.

The truth is, putting two feats into mt, imt gets a sorcerer ~10% more mp, while putting two feats into a specific focus nets a sorcerer a 10% greater chance to fully land that type of spell.

It's a matter of preference.

No, I did those assumption knowing that 'a specific focus nets a sorcerer a 10% greater chance to fully land that type of spell.' Sure, it's a matter of preference, but I let the SP to the nuker. IMO, the generalist gain more from the Spell focuses as he will need to recast again less often... and some CC are emergency "Oh ****, I'm about to die!!" Recasting is not ressource efficient for the other party members, mostly the cleric. It's a matter of preferences, but I think many generalist sorc will come to the same conclusion as I.

Harbinder
08-05-2007, 01:55 PM
If you're going to give the generalist any spell focus feats you might consider SF: Enchantment + SF: Conjuration.

In the "generalist" sense, your Charms and Holds plus the level 7 dancing ball are +1 DC, and so are most of your crowd control along with some good damage spells +1 DC. A pretty wide variety of spells are affected.

Heighten, Extend, and Maximize for the rest?

Aspenor
08-05-2007, 03:03 PM
Asp only has a lvl 1 sorc!!! NOooooooooOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOOB!


Lies, Psi, lies....

Aspenor
08-05-2007, 03:05 PM
I would still petition you consider a GENERAL build to include MT and IMT and save the spell focus for the crowd control build.

Nah, it's been considered, and rejected. :)

MT and IMT are wastes of feats for most sorcerors.

Steadfast
08-05-2007, 05:25 PM
What are some suggested enhancement lines to take for this build? We're trying a 32-point build human version (true neutral, 8 Str, 12 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 18 Cha).

Thank you,

Steadfast

Aspenor
08-05-2007, 08:09 PM
What are some suggested enhancement lines to take for this build? We're trying a 32-point build human version (true neutral, 8 Str, 12 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 18 Cha).

Thank you,

Steadfast

Sorry it's taken me so long to post enhancements. I'll get to it ASAP.

Katianara
08-06-2007, 03:31 AM
No, I did those assumption knowing that 'a specific focus nets a sorcerer a 10% greater chance to fully land that type of spell.' Sure, it's a matter of preference, but I let the SP to the nuker. IMO, the generalist gain more from the Spell focuses as he will need to recast again less often... and some CC are emergency "Oh ****, I'm about to die!!" Recasting is not ressource efficient for the other party members, mostly the cleric. It's a matter of preferences, but I think many generalist sorc will come to the same conclusion as I.

You just changed your argument from one of efficiency, to safety, so that doesn't count either :p

And a generalist should have the mana, not the specialization.

It comes down to whether it is worth it to trade ~150 spellpoints for a 10% greater chance for one school of spells to not be saved against.

It isn't, and saying that IMT and MT are wastes when compared to a +2 to your save DC on a certain school is silly.


Nah, it's been considered, and rejected. :)

MT and IMT are wastes of feats for most sorcerors.

You should probably stop declaring yourself an authority on sorcerers and just stick to helpful suggestions.

Aspenor
08-06-2007, 07:21 AM
You just changed your argument from one of efficiency, to safety, so that doesn't count either :p

And a generalist should have the mana, not the specialization.

It comes down to whether it is worth it to trade ~150 spellpoints for a 10% greater chance for one school of spells to not be saved against.

It isn't, and saying that IMT and MT are wastes when compared to a +2 to your save DC on a certain school is silly.



You should probably stop declaring yourself an authority on sorcerers and just stick to helpful suggestions.

Or maybe you should open your mind and just drop it. :) This is MY thread. You don't have to read it.

Aspenor
08-06-2007, 07:25 AM
And a generalist should have the mana, not the specialization.


I refuse to invest in pointless feats. Hence, no MT or IMT on a sorceror.

You argue that "a generalist should have the mana feats!!" just because YOU have them, and because it'd hurt your feelings to be wrong.

You have to think in terms of marginal benefit vs marginal cost, and you obviously aren't.

Aspenor
08-06-2007, 07:33 AM
Y

It comes down to whether it is worth it to trade ~150 spellpoints for a 10% greater chance for one school of spells to not be saved against.

It isn't, and saying that IMT and MT are wastes when compared to a +2 to your save DC on a certain school is silly.



You should probably stop declaring yourself an authority on sorcerers and just stick to helpful suggestions.

ROFL

You have an awful high opinion of your opinion, don't you. Notice all the other people in this thread that all agree that MT and IMT are less useful than spell foci and spell penetration feats?

Yes, higher DCs on certain spells ARE worth 150 mana points. Mana is not the end-all-be-all of a sorceror.

And just for the record, I am the ultimate authority on arcane casters, in all respects. :rolleyes: :D

Aspenor
08-06-2007, 07:43 AM
If you manage your mana well most end bosses will burn and die quickely with a maximized/extended or empowered/extended firewall. Having both is a waste of mana and overkill. Pick one or the other but dont waste a feat on both.

My response to this is that "most" end bosses is not enough for me.

Also, if you can manage your mana, you can turn on the maximize&empower at any fight you wish and end it in less than 6 seconds.

I can see *maybe* changing empower for a spell penetration feat, but SP feats can be a bit redundant and unnecessary with the right loot.

jkm
08-06-2007, 10:22 AM
What are some suggested enhancement lines to take for this build? We're trying a 32-point build human version (true neutral, 8 Str, 12 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 18 Cha).

Thank you,

Steadfast

if you are going to roll a human go

8 str
8 dex
18 con
8 int
8 wis
18 cha

that way with 2 +3 tomes you are looking at a 34 cha and a 28 con

jkm
08-06-2007, 10:35 AM
this MT and IMT argument is going no where. what we really need to do in the guide is break it up by level of the player. MT and IMT are not needed by expert players who carry SS rings and have every piece of optimum gear there is. they are very much needed by the person running their first time sorc/wiz because they are going to make bad decisions (like trying to hold a skelly) and MT/IMT will help lessen the sting.

so it would be better to talk about feats in terms of the players skill level with the understanding that unlike stats and skills, these can be changed.

beginner
MT
extend
IMT
maximize
heighten

experienced
MT
extend
empower
maximize
heighten

or

MT/Spell Pen
extend
maximize
heighten
enlarge/SF

or

MT/Spell pen
maximize
heighten
SF1
SF2

or whatever...

Varis
08-06-2007, 10:41 AM
ROFL

You have an awful high opinion of your opinion, don't you. Notice all the other people in this thread that all agree that MT and IMT are less useful than spell foci and spell penetration feats?

Yes, higher DCs on certain spells ARE worth 150 mana points. Mana is not the end-all-be-all of a sorceror.

And just for the record, I am the ultimate authority on arcane casters, in all respects. :rolleyes: :D

what are you talking about Aspenor? No, not everyone thinks that MT and IMT are less useful then spell foci or spell penetration items. You are an experience caster like many others here but if you are going to make a guide for new sorcerers without the input from other opinions you are indeed arrogant.

Oh wait... this is "your" thread. My bad, I must have missed the fanboys, yes sayers and compliments only sign. I'm suprised you have not banned me from your thread and forums yet...

Fennario
08-06-2007, 10:56 AM
Here's my take on the whole MT/IMT thing since I have been on both sides of the fence.

I have a Human that I have been playing since release. At level 14 wiith a 32 Cha, Dragonblooded IV, and a PoP X, he had 1808 spellpoints. Now I had always been one of those who loved looking up and seeing that huge SP pool. Since day one, my battle cry was: max Cha, and max those SPs. It was a big thing for me, and really hard to let go of.

After I started playing with Finger of Death, I decided to swap out one of them just to see how useful a Spell Focus School really was. Well, it didn't take long before another shard and 100,000 gold was given to Fred.:) There was NO question on how much more effecient my favorite character had become.

I am now sitting at 1658 spellpoints. Do I miss looking up and not seeing 1800+ spellpoints? Absolutely. I feel the withdrawl symptoms when I am standing around Stormreach from time to time. But, when I am in the heat of battle, I wouldn't trade my Spell Focus education back for anything. Well, at least not for 150 Sps anyway.:)

I understand completely it can be hard to let go of MT/IMT. Its just one of those things. But if you just try swapping out one of them, you will see the light like I did.

Now if I could only hit the +3 tome lottery, and get to 34 Cha.:D

wiglin
08-06-2007, 10:56 AM
I agree with Varis that if a build is called a general build then MT and IMT fit more with the theme of a general build. Once you take Spell focus anything you have now by nature of the feat become a little more specialized in one area.

MT and IMT regardless of weather they are needed or not fit better with a general sorcerer because sp will help all spells. I agree that with an already huge magic pool that sorcerers can get by without taking MT and IMT, but that is play style.

This is my opinion: MT and IMT fit better with the theme of a general sorcerer build then any spell focus feat.

This is why: More sp will benefit the sorcerer that is still getting a feel for the job better than the spell focus line. Choosing spell focus and then saying you are a general sorcerer build is a little contradicting.

General: a little bit of everything more sp lets you do that.
Spell Focus: pick your flavor and do it well.

As a sorcerer I would not take MT and IMT. I agree that they are not needed and the spell focus line are more effective, BUT at the point you are no longer a generalist build.

Fennario
08-06-2007, 10:59 AM
this MT and IMT argument is going no where. what we really need to do in the guide is break it up by level of the player. MT and IMT are not needed by expert players who carry SS rings and have every piece of optimum gear there is. they are very much needed by the person running their first time sorc/wiz because they are going to make bad decisions (like trying to hold a skelly) and MT/IMT will help lessen the sting.

so it would be better to talk about feats in terms of the players skill level with the understanding that unlike stats and skills, these can be changed.

beginner
MT
extend
IMT
maximize
heighten

experienced
MT
extend
empower
maximize
heighten

or

MT/Spell Pen
extend
maximize
heighten
enlarge/SF

or

MT/Spell pen
maximize
heighten
SF1
SF2

or whatever...

Never looked at it that way. Agreed. Great thought.

Aspenor
08-06-2007, 11:40 AM
what are you talking about Aspenor? No, not everyone thinks that MT and IMT are less useful then spell foci or spell penetration items. You are an experience caster like many others here but if you are going to make a guide for new sorcerers without the input from other opinions you are indeed arrogant.

Oh wait... this is "your" thread. My bad, I must have missed the fanboys, yes sayers and compliments only sign. I'm suprised you have not banned me from your thread and forums yet...

If you haven't figured out that I am proudly arrogant about arcane casters, I'll say it a different way:

There are hundreds of different ways to skin a cat. My way just happens to be the best. :D :rolleyes:

Katianara
08-06-2007, 12:03 PM
ITT Aspenor calls everyone arrogant for disagreeing with him.

You know, if you'd like to refute a point about why a 10% greater chance to land a spell is better than 10% more mana, I'd be happy to look at the numbers.

If you're just going to go ROFLING@ULMAO, I don't see what you hope to accomplish here. :confused:

Aspenor
08-06-2007, 12:11 PM
ITT Aspenor calls everyone arrogant for disagreeing with him.

hmmmmm

This is false, I didn't call anybody else arrogant. I called myself arrogant, because I am, and I don't care. :)

/washes my hands

Borror0
08-06-2007, 12:15 PM
You just changed your argument from one of efficiency, to safety, so that doesn't count either :p

And a generalist should have the mana, not the specialization.

It comes down to whether it is worth it to trade ~150 spellpoints for a 10% greater chance for one school of spells to not be saved against.

It isn't, and saying that IMT and MT are wastes when compared to a +2 to your save DC on a certain school is silly.

Ok, read what you said earlier: Spell Focus is as mana efficient as having Mt and IMT, right?

Now, with the MTsm oyu have to cast again and in the other, it lands perfectly. I know which one I'd pick. I won't try to argue you on the mana efficiency, but come on, it's better to one cast one.

I do agree that it would be better to have MTs as this bguild is under the "generalist" rag, but let's face it, a sorc cannot focus on CC as much a wizard would. So, a generalist is a CC sorc that was clever enough to take nukes for the end fights.

Steadfast
08-06-2007, 12:17 PM
if you are going to roll a human go

8 str
8 dex
18 con
8 int
8 wis
18 cha

that way with 2 +3 tomes you are looking at a 34 cha and a 28 con

We went with 10 int to be able to go with three skills (concentration, jump, and UMD) per the original build. This means we can go with 9 dex / 17 con or 12 dex / 16 con (unless we drop to two skills).

I've never come across a +3 tome and I'm not counting on one for this build, never mind two.

Steadfast

jkm
08-06-2007, 12:44 PM
if you drop con to 17 you can still get a 26 with a +2 tome. that gives you 3 points for int (i normally run an odd number on int and eat a +1 tome at 1st level)...

Tallyn
08-06-2007, 02:44 PM
I agree and disagree with the comments made about the Mental Toughness/Improved Mental Toughness feats.

I took one of the Mental Toughness Feats as a Drow Sorc and I like it.

But then I did not take Finger of Death for my level 7 spell. I took Otto's Dancing Sphere.

I also am in a guild with a lot of melee characters. So I like using the extra sp to help haste/displacement/resist them when necessary.


When the level cap goes up, I may drop MT for SF: Necromancy (possibly); I will pick up Finger of Death at 15th level.


If you are using Finger of Death a lot (or any other particular spell) then the benefits of Spell Focus probably do outweigh the benefits of Mental Toughness.

That's my 2 cents anyways.

Varis
08-06-2007, 03:14 PM
I agree and disagree with the comments made about the Mental Toughness/Improved Mental Toughness feats.

I took one of the Mental Toughness Feats as a Drow Sorc and I like it.

But then I did not take Finger of Death for my level 7 spell. I took Otto's Dancing Sphere.

I also am in a guild with a lot of melee characters. So I like using the extra sp to help haste/displacement/resist them when necessary.


When the level cap goes up, I may drop MT for SF: Necromancy (possibly); I will pick up Finger of Death at 15th level.


If you are using Finger of Death a lot (or any other particular spell) then the benefits of Spell Focus probably do outweigh the benefits of Mental Toughness.

That's my 2 cents anyways.

I never said focus was not a good idea, I just said it was not for a GENERAL sorcerer. Focus necromancy or Focus enchantment is great if you SPECIALIZE your sorcerer.

I can guarantee that your focus is worth jack squat if end up having to nuke to kill something. All that mana efficiency goes right out the window on red names or other creatures that are immune.

That's why a GENERAL mage that does not just focus on any one task will MT and IMT.

You won't see me making a fuss over spell focus for a necromancer or enchanter.

wiglin
08-06-2007, 03:41 PM
I never said focus was not a good idea, I just said it was not for a GENERAL sorcerer. Focus necromancy or Focus enchantment is great if you SPECIALIZE your sorcerer.

I can guarantee that your focus is worth jack squat if end up having to nuke to kill something. All that mana efficiency goes right out the window on red names or other creatures that are immune.

That's why a GENERAL mage that does not just focus on any one task will MT and IMT.

You won't see me making a fuss over spell focus for a necromancer or enchanter.

Agreed

Omega
08-08-2007, 02:31 AM
You have an awful high opinion of your opinion, don't you.

Irony defined.

Aspenor
08-08-2007, 12:23 PM
Irony defined.


If you haven't figured out that I am proudly arrogant about arcane casters, I'll say it a different way:

There are hundreds of different ways to skin a cat. My way just happens to be the best. :D :rolleyes:

QFE

Vienemen
08-08-2007, 06:36 PM
And just for the record, I am the ultimate authority on arcane casters, in all respects. :rolleyes: :D

Please allow a humble wizard the chance to interject a tidbit of insight. Good discussions here, but I wish to remind all that we shall see more enemies with spell resistance as we increase our own power. If I may present a formula that might be of help here, and quite obvious to many of you (Spell penetration>Spell focus>Spell Points). This is a truth I believe extends across the wizard/sorcerer boundry. Those vicious Jariliths in gianthold tor elite will still stop my spells on a spell penetration roll of 4 or less...and that was with a spell at +24 to the roll...the math comes out to just below a 30 spell resistance!...and it will only get worse. So as far as landing spells with spell focus vs spell points to recast on successful saves goes, your going to first have to jump the hurdle of spell resistance.

Perhaps a generalist might be better off with that greater spell penetration in place of the spell focus at higher levels. I believe we can agree that is when the penetration feats become more meaningful.

As far as the mental toughness and improved version goes, jkm already stated a important truth that the spell storing ring makes up for 1 of those two by itself. A wizard would like to have all three I can assure you, but we have more latitude in some of our decisions.

Wish there was a better skill to tell them to train in other than jump...

V

Katianara
08-08-2007, 08:24 PM
There's nothing important about the truth that a spell storing ring "makes up" for one of the toughness feats, especially when you consider nothing can "make up" for having both feats AND the ring.

Spell Penetration is situationally useful, but is just another way of specializing yourself in the end.

Varis
08-09-2007, 05:24 AM
Please allow a humble wizard the chance to interject a tidbit of insight. Good discussions here, but I wish to remind all that we shall see more enemies with spell resistance as we increase our own power. If I may present a formula that might be of help here, and quite obvious to many of you (Spell penetration>Spell focus>Spell Points). This is a truth I believe extends across the wizard/sorcerer boundry. Those vicious Jariliths in gianthold tor elite will still stop my spells on a spell penetration roll of 4 or less...and that was with a spell at +24 to the roll...the math comes out to just below a 30 spell resistance!...and it will only get worse. So as far as landing spells with spell focus vs spell points to recast on successful saves goes, your going to first have to jump the hurdle of spell resistance.

Perhaps a generalist might be better off with that greater spell penetration in place of the spell focus at higher levels. I believe we can agree that is when the penetration feats become more meaningful.

As far as the mental toughness and improved version goes, jkm already stated a important truth that the spell storing ring makes up for 1 of those two by itself. A wizard would like to have all three I can assure you, but we have more latitude in some of our decisions.

Wish there was a better skill to tell them to train in other than jump...

V



see this is the advantage of a generalist... he does not depend on crowd control. He does not need to break the rakashas SR. If crowd control is likely to fail, he will just nuke.

Cats? Put down a wall and jump around.
Rakasha? Web them or nuke them
Reavers? fire or cold damage depending.
Drow? Please... lol

You only need spell penetration if you have no alternative to crowd control.

Aspenor
08-09-2007, 07:54 AM
see this is the advantage of a generalist... he does not depend on crowd control. He does not need to break the rakashas SR. If crowd control is likely to fail, he will just nuke.

Cats? Put down a wall and jump around.
Rakasha? Web them or nuke them
Reavers? fire or cold damage depending.
Drow? Please... lol

You only need spell penetration if you have no alternative to crowd control.

OMGzorz:rolleyes: I AGREE!! :D jk Varis

well I really do agree, just messin with you though.

spifflove
08-09-2007, 12:40 PM
Can you color code the post? I got a headache trying to read it.

Kolvarg
08-10-2007, 08:06 AM
When do you think you will be expanding this post? I find it very useful as I am playing my 1st sorcerer. I have made it to level 4 using your guide.

However, I don't know that I want to be a generalist, I am thinking more along the lines of mind control/crowd control stuff. I am loving Hypnotize as I walk into a room making the tanks jobs easier and the cleric as well via less damage to heal.

What feats/spells are the best for this type of sorcerer? With some Offensive for when needed.

Also, besides a high CHA and adding UMD at every level, are there items/ways to increase UMD? I have been in a few parties where I needed to act as backup healer and I am failing like 60-75% of the time with my wand.

Thanks and happy casting!

DemonMage
08-10-2007, 08:11 AM
Also, besides a high CHA and adding UMD at every level, are there items/ways to increase UMD? I have been in a few parties where I needed to act as backup healer and I am failing like 60-75% of the time with my wand.


Heroism, Greater Heroism, Bard +skill song, Golden Cartouche from Delera's, Seven Fingered Gloves from Titan Raid (be awhile before you see that place probably though!), Rabbit Gloves.

Heroism is about all you could get anytime too soon, bard song maybe too. Golden Cartouche in a few levels (think it's ML7).

Steadfast
08-10-2007, 08:36 AM
Feats (in Order): (Drow)
Maximize
Extend
Heighten
Spell focus: Enchantment
Empower

Feats (in Order): (Human)
Maximize
Extend
Heighten
Spell focus: Enchantment
Empower
Spell Penetration


We've been following this build for a human sorceror, and I don't think the recommended feat order works for humans. Heighten is recommend as the third feat, but it requires the ability to cast level 2 spells. For a human, the ability to take a third feat becomes available when the character hits level 3. Level 2 spells, on the other hand, aren't available until the character reaches level 4. We ended up swapping Heighten and Spell focus: Enchantment.

Let me know if I'm missing something.

Steadfast

Aspenor
08-10-2007, 11:39 AM
Can you color code the post? I got a headache trying to read it.

I will try to get around to adding colors and bolded titles this weekend, as well as fixing the lineup of the text. I had to write the whole guide in windows Notepad, and copy/paste it to the forums.

Aspenor
08-10-2007, 11:40 AM
We've been following this build for a human sorceror, and I don't think the recommended feat order works for humans. Heighten is recommend as the third feat, but it requires the ability to cast level 2 spells. For a human, the ability to take a third feat becomes available when the character hits level 3. Level 2 spells, on the other hand, aren't available until the character reaches level 4. We ended up swapping Heighten and Spell focus: Enchantment.

Let me know if I'm missing something.

Steadfast

That works. I probably wasn't paying attention to that when I wrote it.

Aspenor
08-10-2007, 11:42 AM
When do you think you will be expanding this post? I find it very useful as I am playing my 1st sorcerer. I have made it to level 4 using your guide.

However, I don't know that I want to be a generalist, I am thinking more along the lines of mind control/crowd control stuff. I am loving Hypnotize as I walk into a room making the tanks jobs easier and the cleric as well via less damage to heal.

What feats/spells are the best for this type of sorcerer? With some Offensive for when needed.

Also, besides a high CHA and adding UMD at every level, are there items/ways to increase UMD? I have been in a few parties where I needed to act as backup healer and I am failing like 60-75% of the time with my wand.

Thanks and happy casting!

Technically this "generalist" build will be a highly capable mind controller. With the investment of SF: Enchantment, holds and charms will be your highest DC spells. If you want to go full-on enchantment you can probably swap out the empower feat for a greater spell focus: enchantment, or you can take a spell penetration feat for getting through spell resistance with your charms. I'd recommend the GSF, since I rarely have trouble penetrating spell resistance when I want to.

Going full-on enchanter will be a bit of a knock to your nuking power, but if you think charms are your thing then empower is definitely the feat to switch.

Khurse
08-10-2007, 08:02 PM
I've been using this, thanks!
Would this be similar (for early level) for a human sorcerer build focusing on
instakill or dps later on?

Really have no idea what I'll end up doing, but I have to admit, in every game I've tried so far I like killling things far more than the crowd control.

Aspenor
08-12-2007, 12:05 PM
I've been using this, thanks!
Would this be similar (for early level) for a human sorcerer build focusing on
instakill or dps later on?

Really have no idea what I'll end up doing, but I have to admit, in every game I've tried so far I like killling things far more than the crowd control.

The feats will be similar, except an instakill mage will want either Spell Focus: Necromancy or Spell Focus: Illusion, for FoD and PK respectively. Spells will also be different towards the higher level end of the spectrum. An instakill mage will use finger of death over ottos dancing sphere at level 14, as well as a DPS mage most likely. A DPS mage will also use disintegrate over flesh to stone, most likely.

Beherit_Baphomar
08-22-2007, 01:17 PM
I had to hunt for this thread, so here's a lil bumpage to keep it where I can find it.

Elvendur
02-05-2008, 08:22 PM
wow, bash city!
i have to say this: stop the bashing! i agree with Aspendor on the feats, i believe end-game and mid-game you'd rather have more potant damage, and larger affect then to be able to recast one level 7th spell twice. out of mana? go splurge your funds on a SP Potion! WAY more logical in my eyes. if you're solo'ing hard settings (hard>elite) then you probably do not need this guide, if you're not, and partying, then save some kills for the meat-shields! they can get high kill count without having magics being thrown over thier heads!

Vote: FEAT is to good to waste on a measly 70 points, or even 140 points of spell power. use those points for your spell focus or something. look to Aspendor for the advice! and if you don't like his guide, make your own. plain&simple.

between6and25chars
02-08-2008, 11:14 AM
perhaps if you are a crowd control junkie...
so a GENERAL build has empower, maximise, heighen, mental toughness, improved mental toughness.


Unless they're dragonmarked, inwhich case (At least IMO) it should be Leat lesser greater Dragonmark Extend (for buffs... cast once for twice the time is an AMAZING mana saver) maximise and if your a human MAYBE mental toughness. HOwever, Mental toghness is good to get through the first few levels. swap it out for a metamagic later, though
Level 6 i had 690 SP and generaly always had to run BACK for shrines. Odd phrase but its kinda having too much mana at that point. Next level, when i got Haste and Blur, i dropped MT for extend for buffs. Still doing mmore than well Mana wise, and with another item i'm working on getting, i'll have "Too much mana" with out MT. THus, i agree with Asp that MT/IMT is a waste of a feat in a class with not enough feats as is. And BTW, i'm a dragonmarked halfling, so if i'm careful, i don't even need a cleric on most quests of my level. Current spell list goes
1st
mm
hypno
Niacs
Charm Person
2nd
Scorching ray
Hypnoball
Blur
3rd
Fireball
Haste

DoctorLove
02-22-2008, 01:01 PM
I rolled one of these yesterday and wasn't having much luck soloing. For one, undead and oozes are immune to Niacs and Charm Person (and Hypnotism?). That means the all the spells you've recommended are completely insufficient in many early dungeons. Even when there are kobolds to Charm and use against slimes, they often split the slimes and die to them, leaving you helpless. Even if you swap out for Magic Missile, slimes have enough HP that it drains you of mana. And when it comes to undead you're essentially helpless unless you rely solely on Magic Missile.

DemonMage
02-22-2008, 02:26 PM
Use a club (ideally Muckbane) on slimes at low levels (or in general really).

Though I'm a fan of Burning Hands over MM until Fireball, one of the few spell swaps I plan for. Though I just don't like MM in general (then again, Niacs is a little annoying later on to deal with fire immunes, so ehh).

DoctorLove
02-22-2008, 03:05 PM
Muckbane clubs seem like they are absurdly expensive at auction, and trying to melee with a lvl 2 sorc is pretty pathetic. On normal difficulty, the slimes win :/

The only thing I've defeated with melee attacks are barrels and crates, and even then there were some close fights!

Aspenor
02-23-2008, 06:16 PM
I rolled one of these yesterday and wasn't having much luck soloing. For one, undead and oozes are immune to Niacs and Charm Person (and Hypnotism?). That means the all the spells you've recommended are completely insufficient in many early dungeons. Even when there are kobolds to Charm and use against slimes, they often split the slimes and die to them, leaving you helpless. Even if you swap out for Magic Missile, slimes have enough HP that it drains you of mana. And when it comes to undead you're essentially helpless unless you rely solely on Magic Missile.

Ignore them. They're slimes. :confused: Just pretend they arent there

between6and25chars
02-25-2008, 07:11 AM
Ignore them. They're slimes. :confused: Just pretend they arent there

xD "If I close my eyes it'll disappear!" even at 8th level i hate slimes. Immune to fire and ice, immune to mind effecting, i spend like 300 mana taking out like 3 of them on normal >.<

Osharan_Tregarth
02-25-2008, 11:28 AM
xD "If I close my eyes it'll disappear!" even at 8th level i hate slimes. Immune to fire and ice, immune to mind effecting, i spend like 300 mana taking out like 3 of them on normal >.<

Heh.. Loosely translated, Asp's post is saying run past them. They're slow, and in the vast majority of (lower level) quests, you can run past them and be done with the quest before they can catch up. Or leave one(maybe two) charmed pets beating on them, and then run away.

Another strategy... Umm.. They've got an armor class somewhere between lousy and ****poor. Get a weapon, and beat them down. You're not going to be missing them very often.

DoctorLove
02-25-2008, 12:55 PM
Once you get a second magic missile they go down in 3-4 shots so imho that's the key if there are too many to just ignore.

Also the consistent hitting nature of MM seems like it makes a much more reliable weapon than Niacs when you're hopping around soloing a mission, even if the damage isn't quite as good. I like the range over burning hands too, allows you to somewhat kite some enemies. Throw in the fact that it hits undead and slimes, and frankly I think the guide should be changed to reflect MM as one of the first two spells you pick as I don't see Niacs as that helpful in lvls 1-3.

Aspenor
01-04-2009, 10:00 AM
found this relic too. bumping. will edit.

Borror0
01-04-2009, 10:04 AM
found this relic too. bumping. will edit.
Might want to bump that one (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117934) too.

Aspenor
01-28-2009, 08:48 AM
going to centralize these and post a single thread, sorcerer's handbook. weeeeeee

HeavenlyCloud
01-28-2009, 08:57 AM
going to centralize these and post a single thread, sorcerer's handbook. weeeeeee

You don't have to... in fact delete them all!

Aspenor
01-28-2009, 08:58 AM
You don't have to... in fact delete them all!

delete yourself blah