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Darksolar
08-01-2007, 11:29 AM
Currently I am trying to decide a new toon and was looking at making a dual wielding war chanter...

I have 2 w/p ss's so...

Dwarf for at end stats 28/22/24/8/8/20
Human for End stats 30/22/18/8/8/22
Drow for end stats 28/24/18/10/8/24

Hp would be most on the dwarf due to tougness and the enhancments for it. as well the dwarf would have the beter saves due to higher con and spell save enhancments/base

Human hits highest str so +10 hit/dmg with main hand and +10 hit/+5dmg off hand also an extra feat because the dual wield build is prety feat intensive

Drow offers attack2 and damage2 so help get around the penaltys of dual wield as well I do not belive the 2 damage is halfed on the off hand so it helps a lot to get around dr of mobs like elementals

Dwarf 286 HP
Human 229 HP
Drow 229 HP

so all in all dwarf has more hp and saves has the lowest chance to get around dr and to hit
human is the middle of the road more chance to pass dr and to hit has same hp as drow but will probly get healed easier and has an extra feat
drow has best chance around dr and to hit mobs as well

Schmackdown
08-01-2007, 12:02 PM
Level 12 bard doesn't get you much at present- 10/4 will allow for gTWF now. If your plan is to go 18/2 and get gTWF later, great. As you mention, though, the TWF line is pretty feat-intensive; the four levels of fighter get you those three as class bonuses. I would strongly suggest Quick Draw as well if you're toting more than just the two short swords- QD really enhances twitch builds.

I wouldn't make a racial choice based on getting around elemental DR. IME you'll be OK with just the puncturing part of your w/p's, and with a 16+ base STR you should be able to land the wounding part here and there.

Dwarf is likely the best choice for this build due to the Toughness and CON enhancements. High HP and heavy fort go a long way in managing survivability. I doubt you'll have a hard time hitting, but if you do, succor is just a Sunder or Destruct away.

EinarMal
08-01-2007, 12:27 PM
Well there were several builds around like this but of course they all were deleted. Going 12/2 works out well as you can pick up GTWF at level 14 as long as you take fighter for the last level. That gives you the correct BAB +11 for it.

I wouldn't worry that much about DR either, are your W-P weapons +1?

Dmg Main Hand:
Song +7
Weapon +1
Strength +9
Rage +1
Total = +18

Dmg Off Hand:
Song +7
Strength +4
Rage +1
Total = +12

I would tend to rank them Dwarf/Drow/Human personally for this build, as the +2/+2 Drow enhancement probably trumps the free feat and is worth more than the extra strength and you get a slightly higher charisma.

I think Dwarf/Drow are really close depending on if you want an offensive boost (Drow shortsword enhancements) or survivability Dwarf.

BTW I have a TWF Drow Bard and it is great fun and works out quite well. He is currently on tap for 12/2 to the current cap.

CSFurious
08-01-2007, 12:35 PM
you will get lots of hitpoints & i think that a wf or dwarf warchanter might be pretty strong for the endgame

you will not have to worry about having a high dex, just str & con if you go down this road

Darksolar
08-01-2007, 01:15 PM
with the 12/2 build the feats are

Power attack
Wep Focus Pierce *can be something else*
Toughness
Extend Spell
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Imp Crit in your focus

that is if you go human the dwarf and drow builds have to drop something untill the level cap goes up again and it would probly be toughness atm

a warforged is a hard choice because you lose even yet another feat for mithril body but you get the huge bonus that goes with warforged and with the level cap going up spell casters are going to be casting more level drain spells that you will be immune 2

Schmackdown
08-01-2007, 01:19 PM
NM, I didn't see the warchanter piece in the OP, and the 12/2 breakdown to get gTWF is correct- you just have to take that fighter level last.

A_Sheep
08-01-2007, 01:32 PM
Well there were several builds around like this but of course they all were deleted.

Heheh, yeah. I was thinking of re-posting Taalisyn, but all the discussion that came after the first post would still be lost. (alas)

It's a tough choice. I'd throw my support behind human, personally, because you're going to be strapped for action points and for feats (if you choose to go warchanter, which I would highly encourage). Does a dwarf/drow have room for the toughness feat?

1 - Extend
3 - Power Attack
4 - Fighter Bonus - TWF
6 - Weapon Focus: Pierce
9 - ITWF
12 - Improved Crit: Pierce
14 Fighter Bonus - GTWF

The Human bonus would give another feat with which to take toughness and 1 level of Fighter's Toughness.

If you're not planning to take warchanter, then the Human feat isn't quite as much of a boost.

EinarMal
08-01-2007, 01:37 PM
Heheh, yeah. I was thinking of re-posting Taalisyn, but all the discussion that came after the first post would still be lost. (alas)

It's a tough choice. I'd throw my support behind human, personally, because you're going to be strapped for action points and for feats (if you choose to go warchanter, which I would highly encourage). Does a dwarf/drow have room for the toughness feat?

1 - Extend
3 - Power Attack
4 - Fighter Bonus - TWF
6 - Weapon Focus: Pierce
9 - ITWF
12 - Improved Crit: Pierce
14 Fighter Bonus - GTWF

The Human bonus would give another feat with which to take toughness and 1 level of Fighter's Toughness.

If you're not planning to take warchanter, then the Human feat isn't quite as much of a boost.

Yeah no toughness until 15 for Drow/Dwarf....unless you go 10/4. Honestly all three races are so close it is mainly a matter of personal preference. I think you chose khopesh as your bonus feat which doesn't apply here since he has the shortswords already. The human hit point advantage would go away at level 15 when the Drow can pick up toughness. At which point the racial weapon enhancements to me would be worth more. Again though it is marginal at best. Would the human take SF UMD or mental toughness maybe?

Dwarf is the most survivable for sure, especially at 15 when you pick up toughness and get a boat load of hitpoints if you can squeeze in the toughness enhancements.

Schmackdown
08-01-2007, 01:49 PM
Are you planning out Warchanter because you want to try something different, or because you think the boosts to IC and the DR song will really help this build?

EinarMal
08-01-2007, 02:08 PM
Are you planning out Warchanter because you want to try something different, or because you think the boosts to IC and the DR song will really help this build?

Well I can answer from my perspective on this. The nice thing about warchanter is it allows you to MC and maintain IMO the #1 benefit of the Bard class song buffs. To build a good TWF Bard you need a lot of feats, but taking 2-4 fighter levels reduces your song buff power. By taking warchanter you can essentially stay even with a pure Bard non-warchanter and still get 1-3 free feats plus other good fighter enhancements. You also must take at least two fighter levels to get GTWF.

That was my thinking on this....

Darksolar
08-01-2007, 06:21 PM
warchanter isnt really needed but it does add +1hit and +2 damage yes this dual wield with warchanter really does take a lot to get into but 200hp is a decent amount atm as an off tank so you can drop the toughness feat to work in the rest and just take it at level 15... you could also go 10 bard and 4 fighter but at that point id still probly drop toughness because you get 8hp more anyways and take wep spec to help get around dr even more but you lose out on 1 pt of dmg on your song.

Style wise I think the dwarf sounds the coolest but min max drow is probly ahead due to having 2 higher cha for umd and having the enhancments for ss/rapiers.
and yes i have other nice ss/rapiers but the main weps will be w/p and use dual smiters disruptors etc as the need comes. plus I can go pure dps mode with the build having the 28 str I will do very good damage