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Orrick_The_Undying
07-31-2007, 11:33 PM
Not sure if a build like this was ever posted yet, if so.. props to the originator.

The inspiration for this build came to me the other night when my guild Gravis Negotium was running the Reaver for the umteenth time.. what I saw from a guildmate ( Ruffus .. A.K.A. Rufio ) impressed me. He res scrolled me in the dead room. a UMD fighter... well I simply MUST make one.

Here's my take... I welcome all contructive criticism.

Disclaimer: This build presupposes that you have access to raid drops and high end gear (which I fortunately do )

Below is the edited build and subsequent numbers/gear layout


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.65
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 True Neutral Dwarf Male
Angron The Worldeater
(10 Fighter \ 2 Barbarian \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 258
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 10
Will: 3

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 16 21 24
Dexterity 15 17 18
Constitution 15 16 18
Intelligence 12 13 13
Wisdom 10 10 10
Charisma 9 12 12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 14
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 7 11 15
Bluff 3 5 5
Concentration 3 4 4
Diplomacy 3 6 6
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5 5
Heal 0 0 0
Hide 3 4 4
Intimidate 3 17 17
Jump 7 13 13
Listen 0 0 0
Move Silently 3 4 4
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 1 1
Search 1 1 3
Spot 0 0 0
Swim 7 11 11
Tumble 7 12 12
Use Magic Device 3 18 21

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stability
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stonecutting
Feat: (Automatic) Giant Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Orc and Goblin Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Poison Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus (Dwarf)
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency

Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion (Rogue)
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

Level 5 (Barbarian)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Rage

Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 7 (Barbarian)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Damage Reduction
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I

Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II

Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II

Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV

Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III



Stats

STR: 16 +3 [FTR STR 3] +3 [total tome usage = a +1 @ Lvl 1 and a +3 @ Lvl 14] +2 [Level Ups] +6 [STR Item]------------30 +10 Unraged : 36 Double Raged +13

DEX: 15 +1 [DEX Tome] +1 [Rog DEX 1] +1 [Level Up] +6 [DEX Item]-----------------------------------------------------24 +7

CON: 15 +1 [CON Tome] +1 [Dwarven CON 1] +1 [Barb CON 1] +6 [CON Item]--------------------------------------------24 +7 Unraged : 30 Double Raged +10

INT: 12 +1 [INT Tome]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------13 +1

WIS: 10 [ optional usage of a +2 Tome here for max Will Save]-----------------------------------------------------------10 +0 [ or +1 if WIS Tome used ]

CHA: 9 +3 [total tome usage = a +1 @ Lvl 1 and a +3 @ Lvl 14] +6 [CHA Item]-------------------------------------------18 +4



UMD

17-Ranks
3-Skill Focus UMD
2-Rogue Skill Boost 1 ( 20 seconds )
2-Luck Bonus ( Head of Good Fortune )
5-Seven Fingered Gloves
4-Greater Heroism
4-CHA mod to UMD score
___________
37 UMD No FAIL Raise Dead Scrolls.. YES PLEASE !

To Hit

+13-Base Attack Bonus
+10-Unraged STR Mod
+2-Dwarven Axe Mastery 2
+1-Weapon Focus: Slashing
+4-Greater Heroism
+1-Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
+5-Weapon Enchantment
-2-Two Weapon Fighting
____________
+34 To Hit
+3-Double Rage Bonus to STR
____________
+37 To Hit [ ON THE FIRST SWING & and you've got 6 more after that ]

Armor Class ( Doesn't matter to me )

+10-Base
+5-Armor
+6-DEX Bonus
+5-Protection Item
+2-Stability Mod ( Mith Chain shirt)
+1-Haste
+1-Barkskin Potion ( Total AC gain )
_____________
30 AC Frankly.. I WANT to get hit..with Brambles, DQ bracers, and Madstone boots on it pays to get hit some )

Saves

F / R / W ( Below are Maximum Potential Saves Under Optimal Conditions )

14/10/03--Taken from Above
+3/00/00--Adjusted CON Mod
00/+3/00--Adjusted DEX Mod
00/00/+1--Adjusted WIS mod IF +2 WIS Tome used
+5/+5/+5--+5 Resistance Item ( Kardin's or Boots of the Innocent )
+2/+2/+2--Luck Bonus ( Head of Good Fortune )
+4/+4/+4--Greater Heroism
00/00/+1--Rage Bonus
+2/+2/+2--Dwarven Racial Spell/Effects Resistance
+3/+3/+3--Dwarven Spell Defense 3
_____________
33/29/21 ( Is this right.. can you guys keep me honest here please )

Gear By Slot ( My guild [ Gravis Negotium ] { A.K.A. " The G-Unit " } raids Reaver/Titan/Demon Queen VERY Regularly so the tomes and this gear set up is very attainable )

I have most of the non raid items banked, the raid drops [ marked with * ] are easy for me to acquire. If they're not for you, just adjust to your means

Head: Minos Legens [ Toughness Feat : Heavy Fortification ]
Eyes: *Sandstorm Goggles [ True Seeing, Blindness Ward ]
Neck: +6 CON Necklace / Silver Flame Talisman
Trinket: Kardin's Eye [ +5 all resists ] / *Head of Good Fortune [ +2 Luck Bonus to Skills/Saves, Mod Fort ]
Body: +5 Lesser Lightning Guard Mithral Chain Shirt of Stability / *Chain of Conviction
Cloak: Greater Resistance Cloaks [ all elements ] / *Wretched Twilight ( I can't wait for this item !! )
Waist: *Belt of Brute Strength [ +6 STR , Greater False Life ]
Arms: *Bracers of the Demon's Consort
Hands: +6 DEX Gloves / *Seven Fingered Gloves [ +5 UMD ]
Feet: *Madstone Boots [ 20% striders, Madstone Rage 1/day, ]
Finger1: Disease Immunity Ring of Protection +5
Finger2: Swap Slot-----> +6 CHA Ring / Reaver Ring / Ring of Shadows

[ My Dream ]
Weapon1: Sever
Weapon2: Sever

I know, I know, I know... the build is heavily tome/gear dependant, but it's easily attainable for a pseudo-serious player/raider such as myself, so I thought I'd post it up.. let me know what you think.

Slayer918
08-01-2007, 02:08 AM
I would think that 2 paly levels would be more benificial to this build over barb levels... with only 2 barb you will only have access to 2 rages each about a min and a half... not all that great to splash barbarian IMO... you could drop wisdom to 8 and raise cha to 11 starting (that way w/ the levels of paly you dont lose any will saves.

Why do you want CE and TWF... they dont exactly go together all that well since... while possible... it is very difficult to get a good AC while dual weilding.

Orrick_The_Undying
08-01-2007, 06:58 PM
I would think that 2 paly levels would be more benificial to this build over barb levels... with only 2 barb you will only have access to 2 rages each about a min and a half... not all that great to splash barbarian IMO... you could drop wisdom to 8 and raise cha to 11 starting (that way w/ the levels of paly you dont lose any will saves.

Why do you want CE and TWF... they dont exactly go together all that well since... while possible... it is very difficult to get a good AC while dual weilding.

Please indulge me and read the following blurb, as it is a brief history of the true Angron ( from the WH40K universe )

The Horus Heresy

" The Emperor himself criticized Angron for the changes he made to his recruits. Like all other gladiators on his homeworld, Angron had received special nerve-implants which tremendously heightened his aggressiveness, but also the side effect of uncontrolable rages. Seeing the tactical possibilities that such a device could offer, he instructed his Techmarines to duplicate the design and use them throughout the legion. The results were spectacular. The Emperor was displeased, however, and ordered him to stop. Angron paid him no heed and continued the unsavory practice secretly.

This led to the World Eaters being criticized for their general bloodlust and barbarity by their Fellow Legionnaires.

Angron was easily turned by Horus at the time of the Heresy. Since he had yet to forgive the Emperor from being taken away from his Gladiator brethren and was promised the blood of the brother-Primarchs that had criticized him and his legion for their barbarity, he launched himself and his Legion with unbridled savagery at the Imperium and his fellow Legions. "

The " true " Angron was a dual axe wielding, bloodthristy, psychopath hell bent on slaughter and carnage. Meeting him on the field of battle would be the equivalent of jumping headlong into an industrial sized fan with razor sharp blades, bits and pieces of you strewn to and fro with nothing left of you but goo to stain his armor and boots.

In short, once again this is a character built around a theme outside of DDO ( which I seem to be prone to of late ) and I've incorportated it into a feasible DDO character.

Keeping with the theme of the build the 2 levels of Barbarian were taken purposefully and methodically.. The benfits are ; Increased Run Speed albeit only 10% but it helps, D12 Hit Die, access to Barbarian Constitution 1 Enhancement, Damage Reduction 1/ ( a minor boon, but a boon nonetheless ). Uncanny Dodge ( AC AND reflex saves boost ) and the all important Rage [ +4 CON & +4 STR +2 Will Save -2AC ] which is the cornerstone of the theme..

One minor note of clarification. I may have only 2-3 CLASS rages, but as you will see the UMD score is easilly high enough to afford me as many rages as there are scrolls in my inventory <edit. or just buy rage potions> . Furthermore, spell/potion/clicky rage [ the +2 to STR and +2 to CON ] STACKS with class rage. So I will stay primarily spell/clicky/scroll raged 95% of the time and will hit class rage to replicate the aforementioned " uncontrolable rages " effect ( mostly for boss fights and taking down Chaquita the Banana Warforged in POP ). And to think all it takes is a potion of lesser restoration to undo all that exhaustion...seems almost criminal. I love it !

As for Combat Expertise, you're absolutely right. I'm not too terribly worried about AC.. I'm still convinced that Displacement/Blur + Stoneskin and a hefty HP total outweigh AC, especially in the current content. CE will be dropped in exchange for Power Attack.

TWF however is a MUST.. I can't pass up GTWF and 7 attacks per combat sequence.. It just wouldn't do Angron justice any other way.

The obvious low point here are the saves, the will save in particular. No way around this, and again it sort of keeps with the overall theme. Afterall to give in so readily to bloodlust, one can't have that much willpower. Tome usage, gear and buffs will eventually see the will save raised from a 3 to a more workable 12-16 range. This still isn't earthshatteringly great, but I'm willing to live with it.
I've seen too many variants of the Dwarven Batman ( no offense to Gren and the other Dwarven FTR/PAL/ROG builders .. it's a SOLID build ) lately to just want to be another one and splash in the 2 lvls to bump the saves. I wanted something a bit different.

I'm sorry, I've forgotten myself, thank you very much for your constructive criticism. The numbers/gear will be added to the OP tonght. Perhaps that will clear up any further misunderstandings.

<edited for spelling and typos>

Orrick_The_Undying
08-01-2007, 10:05 PM
the title says it all...


Would someone do me a HUGE favor and figure out the approximate HP's... I'm brainfried and feel like I keep forgetting something.


Thx in Advance.

sigtrent
10-16-2007, 05:14 PM
Nice build. This is one that certainly seems a result of crunching the numbers and sorting out what you need to hit to get X score in this and Y abbility in that. Good craftsmanship I'd say.

It's interesting in that it spends most of its young life as a sword and board or two hander, then makes a dramatic turn for a two weapon fighter due to the way the feat requrements, levels and such work out. It's acutaly fun to level because you always have some new feature you are looking forward to until the character is "complete" (but then you just plan out more features :) )

I think you will find you can run power attack most of the time, even TWF and it will be worth while. Lots of folks kind of scoff at splashing barbarian but I quite enjoy it. Even if its not consistantly great its a lot of fun and has that (But this build goes to 11!*) kind of feeling to it.

* famous spinal tap reference

Orrick_The_Undying
10-16-2007, 06:18 PM
Even if its not consistantly great its a lot of fun and has that (But this build goes to 11!*) kind of feeling to it.

* famous spinal tap reference


right... he was talking about his amps and how they go to volume 11 when everyone else's goes to 10.


CLASSIC !

Hadrian
10-17-2007, 12:40 AM
The only thing I noticed about your saves is that you have the Kardin's Eye listed as your +5 resistance item and you've added it to the Head of Good Fortune's +2 good luck. These are in the same slot, aren't they?

Also, remember that those saves only count against spells and spell-like abilities.

Other than that it looks like it will do well, but it's not really a build. It's just a list of ideal gear on a basic rogue splash for evasion, so it will be a late bloomer. Some of its stats fall a bit short, where the 2 paladin levels would have filled the gap, until you get that shopping list completed. You might expect to have a little trouble with reflex saves and evasion at first, I would think. Even 24 reflex saves vs traps is a little bit low on the newer content (GH and later). However, 29 vs spells should be plenty to avoid nearly all spells except on a roll of 1.

You might have the same issue with will saves at first. 21 is plenty for a lot of the content, but in the newer stuff or against elite mind flayers you will fall very short. I really noticed a difference against mind flayers when I got to 27+ excluding the dwarf bonus.

Orrick_The_Undying
10-17-2007, 04:21 PM
The only thing I noticed about your saves is that you have the Kardin's Eye listed as your +5 resistance item and you've added it to the Head of Good Fortune's +2 good luck. These are in the same slot, aren't they?

Also, remember that those saves only count against spells and spell-like abilities.

Other than that it looks like it will do well, but it's not really a build. It's just a list of ideal gear on a basic rogue splash for evasion, so it will be a late bloomer. Some of its stats fall a bit short, where the 2 paladin levels would have filled the gap, until you get that shopping list completed. You might expect to have a little trouble with reflex saves and evasion at first, I would think. Even 24 reflex saves vs traps is a little bit low on the newer content (GH and later). However, 29 vs spells should be plenty to avoid nearly all spells except on a roll of 1.

You might have the same issue with will saves at first. 21 is plenty for a lot of the content, but in the newer stuff or against elite mind flayers you will fall very short. I really noticed a difference against mind flayers when I got to 27+ excluding the dwarf bonus.


Yes Kardin's Eye and the Head of Good Fortune are in the same slot, however Boots of the Innocent ( non trinket slot ) are also available , as is a +5 resistance ring/cloak/necklace to easily overcome the trinket slot issue.

As for not calling this a build, I couldn't disagree with you any more. It IS a build. A build IMHO constitutes taking a theme, or a a general idea for a character and manipulating stats, classes, and gear to achieve your desired goal.

Perhaps I should start with this . The premise for this build was a non ranger TWF/UMD SUPPORT/DPS tank that would AVOID the typical FTR/ROG/PAL template.

You stated that this was nothing more than an ideal gear list wrapped around a rogue splash for evasion ( WRONG BTW... Rog 2 was taken to max UMD.. I could give a toss about evasion ) and immediately fall back on the standard pally splash technique. I purposefully avoided the pally splash b/c then I'd be like every other Batman-esque clone out there. Batman is a rock solid build, Gren is actually one of my build engineer idols, however that wasn't my goal.

Angron isn't designed to be a frontline/maintank.. he's a support/DPSer. The UMD ( which I'm addicted to ) is a stopgap for alot of things. That's the purpose of this build. He's not to be a rog, or an intimitank.

As for the gear list.. I raid/trade/Loot run ALOT. 98% of the non bound items are already collecting dust in the bank so short of a few +3 tomes and the raid gear, the list is complete.

If you happened to read a few posts south of the build post, you'd see why I chose the classes I did... It was a THEME build I decided to re-work to make competative.

On a closing note... This isn't even the best form of this build, I've reworked him yet again and have improved his saves/HP/and skills. I really should post the newest one.

Thx for the feedback.

O / Yoyo

Blazer
10-17-2007, 04:46 PM
Yes Kardin's Eye and the Head of Good Fortune are in the same slot, however Boots of the Innocent ( non trinket slot ) are also available , as is a +5 resistance ring/cloak/necklace to easily overcome the trinket slot issue.

The bolded part may be a point of contention for some people. To date, I believe the only +5 resist items are the two named ones you listed. As of right now I do not believe they can be randomly generated, rr or otherwise, else we would have seen one by now. To my knowledge, no one has ever seen one drop.

Back to your build, it makes me laugh because a guildie of mine has the same thing (no TWF, however, but same level and class splits, UMD, etc) but he kinda stumbled upon it by mistake many months ago. He was leveling up a fighter and accidentally took a level of barbarian. The lesson, of course, is not to level while under the influence (alcohol, or other chemical influence). ;) Up until now, I had never seen another character with the 10F/2Barb/2Rogue split before. I may have to give one a shot just for fun.

Impaqt
10-17-2007, 04:48 PM
Seems your putting a LOT into UMD simply because you want to use reaise dead scrolls...

I'd Think someone with as much acess to high end gear as you would just carry a Res ring or 2.....

I like UMD for using Race Restricted Gear.. But FOcusing on Raise dead seems like a waste.

NThe amount of raid gear and Rare items you have in the build would make ANY build good though....

Orrick_The_Undying
10-17-2007, 04:57 PM
I only have 5 pieces of raid loot listed. That's really not alot considering 20 runs of each raid lets you pick your end reward ( for the most part ) and the Reaver takes what 10 minutes now, DQ can be done in about as long, and Titan is maybe a 25 minute run? Seems reasonable to me.

As for the rares, yes some are hard to get, but I trade ALOT so I horde them.. hehe. the res ring eludes me still.... can't loot them and lately people aren't trading them on Sarlona..

I'm on your same page Imp for the UMD.. I like being able to UMD ANY piece of gear in the game.. the raise dead scrolls are the just in case the cleric eats it bonus. Actually if there is any scroll I focus in on using it's actually either Summon Monster 7 or Greater Teleport... just for fun.. nobody expects to see a fighter with an Efreeti or floating a GTP window with my name on it.. lol

Impaqt
10-17-2007, 05:03 PM
I only have 5 pieces of raid loot listed. That's really not alot considering 20 runs of each raid lets you pick your end reward ( for the most part ) and the Reaver takes what 10 minutes now, DQ can be done in about as long, and Titan is maybe a 25 minute run? Seems reasonable to me.

As for the rares, yes some are hard to get, but I trade ALOT so I horde them.. hehe. the res ring eludes me still.... can't loot them and lately people aren't trading them on Sarlona..



8 Pieces actually....

Why cant you Loot the Res Ring? Cant speed run it in 5 minutes like originally... But 10-15 is doable.....

apollojuly
10-17-2007, 05:24 PM
... but it's easily attainable for a casual player/raider such as myself...


We must have different definitions of the word casual.

Orrick_The_Undying
10-17-2007, 08:33 PM
8 Pieces actually....

Why cant you Loot the Res Ring? Cant speed run it in 5 minutes like originally... But 10-15 is doable.....

I can't loot one b/c I'm just not lucky when it comes to that item. Seriously.. I've run it gotta be approaching 50 times now and no res ring for me yet. I've seen like 2 dozen drop, I'm just not lucky enough to get one.

Orrick_The_Undying
10-17-2007, 08:35 PM
We must have different definitions of the word casual.

Perhaps my definition of casual is skewed, but this is what I mean.

I play maybe every other day, and since my guild runs these raids ALOT.. chances are when I do get to attend a raid I may get the item ( as a default loot ) b/c most of the guildies have the item already, or don't need it.

Hadrian
10-18-2007, 06:23 AM
I am not triyng to be insulting, but I think you decided to respond to my post as if I was and missed the points I was trying to make. You stated your goals at the start of your post, and I responded with them in mind.

Your saves will fall considerably short until you manage to stock up on all of that raid gear, and then they will still be a little short when it really counts. The paladin splash is common because it bridges this gap. I did not tell you that you should go paladin. I simply stated a fact.

You may have a theme to your character, but that isn't a build. You asked for technical build advice, not thematic, and that is what I focused my answer on. You have a list of great items that still do not take the saves to the "soft cap" values.

You have the basics of intimidate and UMD that every similar build has, but considerably lower saves and AC. Listing every possible ideal item to make a build look reasonable is a common crutch that often produces less-than-optimal build designs. I think it would be more constructive to build it with average gear in mind to make sure you have a solid frame. You specifically asked for such feedback. I am sorry that you were not prepared for it to be negative.

Orrick_The_Undying
10-18-2007, 09:35 PM
I am not triyng to be insulting, but I think you decided to respond to my post as if I was and missed the points I was trying to make.


Herein lies the problem with text. There is no conveyance of emotion in text so it lends itself to misinterpretation.

I don't take offense to your feedback, and I certainly wasn't angry. Your opinion is just that, your opinion... It's no better or wrose than mine.

Regardless of what anyone else thinks about anyone elses " builds " we all do it for the same reason... fun.

And it is with that purpose in mind I've build Angron and play him.


Peace....Nuff Said,

O / Yoyo

Hadrian
10-19-2007, 01:57 AM
I was only trying to respond to the questions you specifically asked about your saves, so it surprised me that you responded in the way you did. I explained that your saves fell short of certain target numbers and what they were used for. I explained that this is why people take Paladin levels, and I was met with what was worded very much like an accusation.

I hope you do have fun with your build, but I am not sure what the point of asking questions is if you're going to respond so defensively.

Borror0
10-19-2007, 02:04 AM
What is the point of posting your build on a forum if it's not to listen to feedback?

No offense, just curious.

If you want to post your character just for the fun of it and so otherts could look at it... here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Characters).

Hadrian
10-19-2007, 02:11 AM
It was to ask for feedback. He asked for feedback three different times in his post. I tried to be constructive and explain my points, and I did not get treated very well.

Borror0
10-19-2007, 02:46 AM
Ok, changed that.

redoubt
10-20-2007, 10:24 AM
I only have 5 pieces of raid loot listed. That's really not alot considering 20 runs of each raid lets you pick your end reward ( for the most part ) and the Reaver takes what 10 minutes now, DQ can be done in about as long, and Titan is maybe a 25 minute run? Seems reasonable to me.



I'm not picking on you, just jealous of the types. I cannot conceive of building a new character and getting 5-8 pieces of raid loot in a short period of time. I read this post and others with gear like this listed and just say wow! Maybe someday I'll figure out how you guys roll through the raids that fast and easy... (prolly after I retire and become a ddo playing recluse.) :D

Anyway, good on ya and good luck with it.

Hadrian
10-21-2007, 04:15 PM
I only meant to get across that, when asking for feedback, a build that isn't hidden behind all of the highest end items you want to put on it is a lot easier to comment on and would yield a much more productive discussion. I don't see where that is unreasonable.

Borror0
10-21-2007, 04:29 PM
I only meant to get across that, when asking for feedback, a build that isn't hidden behind all of the highest end items you want to put on it is a lot easier to comment on and would yield a much more productive discussion. I don't see where that is unreasonable.

I think that a build should used the best gear available to him, period.

Deciding what is or is not too much is hard and depend on everyone's point of view. Going to the max is the only way to really see by being fair with everyone.

That doesn't mean the build is more or less good because he has all the raid loot he wants.
Neither does it mean it sucks without it.

sigtrent
10-22-2007, 04:41 PM
Deciding what is or is not too much is hard and depend on everyone's point of view. Going to the max is the only way to really see by being fair with everyone.


It really depends on your audience. When I do my builds I sometimes include raid items sometimes not. Generaly I include something if it is either ubiquitous, essential to the build, or a perfect item for some reason (like armor with the perfect max dex for the build). I also might include especialy good items or raid items if the character is specificaly a min-max build on some game aspect, and that raid gear is the pinical of whatever that is. So a I might build a character with sword of shadows in mind or the like.

It the item is just a better version of something more common, or it has an effect that is nice but not relavent to the build itself. (say a the mino helm) then including it doesn't really tell you anything about the philosophy of the build or how it compares to other builds. It all get's lost under a pile of gear bonuses and effects that essentialy any character could equip.

For my request builds I tried to give them all fairly simalar sets of gear assumptions so that you could make comparisons between them. I try to note when I vary from those for some reason or another.

Generaly almost any build can get all 20+ saves or 40AC if you just gear it up for that. your build is a good example in reguards to will saves. Basicaly they stink compared to many builds, but if you add in enough items and the awesome dwarven spell resistance it looks pretty decent (and indeed they are I'm just illustrating the impact of gear over build).

Not to say that gear lists arn't instructive. Actualy I think its an interesting exercise to pick out the best possible gear for a character, more challenging in many ways than making a character since there is so much gear out there. I don't do it myself because I honestly don't know the gear in the game that well as I only raid on rare occasions and quest more for the sake of questing that for getting loot.