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Dworkin_of_Amber
07-31-2007, 09:15 AM
Since I am one of the idiots who did NOT backup my forum posts, I lost the thread for the new Fighter template I was going to build, So I'm going to start over, and ask for help.

Theory: Maximize AC without completely abandoning DPS. Fighter or Fighter/Paladin as most likely classes (I have ruled out Evasion at this point).

Assumptions: 32-point build, +1 Tomes, +2 Favor Tome, +5 Mithral Full Plate, +5 Mithral Tower Shield (Human Only), +4/+5/+6 Stat Items, Minimal use of Raid Loot

Not allowed: Unbound +2 or +3 Tomes, planning for +2 or +3 Tomes except for 1750 Favor Tome.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attempt #1: Human
12 Fighter / 2 Paladin

STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 3 (Fighter's STR 3) + 1 (Human Adapt STR 1) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (STR) = 32 (+11)
DEX: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 12 + 1 (Tome) = 13 (+1)
WIS: 9 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 12 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Human Adapt CHA 1) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)


AC:
--------------------------------------
10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Full Plate (Armor)
5 - Dex Bonus (using FAM 2 & FTSM 1) (Dex)
9 - +5 Mithral Tower Shield (Shield)
5 - Protection Item (Deflection)
2 - Chaosguarde (Dodge)
3 - Chattering Ring (Dodge)
3 - Seal of the Earth (Natural)
1 - Paladin Aura (Misc)
1 - Dodge Feat
--------------------------------------
52 AC - Standing, Unbuffed, Unstanced
--------------------------------------
1 - Haste Potion
5 - Combat Expertise
--------------------------------------
58 AC - Self-Buffed & Stanced
--------------------------------------
2 - Recitation
2 - Ranger's Barkskin
3 - Paladin's Aura
--------------------------------------
65 AC - Buffed & Stanced
--------------------------------------
5 - Human Versatility 4 - AC Boost
1 - Halfling's Heroes Companion
--------------------------------------
71 AC - Buffed & Stanced w/ Clickies


To Hit
--------------------------------------
14 - BAB
11 - STR
5 - Weapon
1 - Weapon Focus
4 - Greater Heroism
--------------------------------------
+35 - Self Buffed
--------------------------------------
2 - Recitation
1 - Haste
5 - Human Versatility 4
--------------------------------------
+43 - with Buffs
--------------------------------------
-5 - Combat Expertise or Power Attack
--------------------------------------
+38 - Fully Buffed w/ Combat Expertise or Power Attack
(+1 with Rage Potion)


Damage:
--------------------------------------
11 - STR
5 - Weapon
4 - Greater Heroism
--------------------------------------
+20 Damage
--------------------------------------
5 - Power Attack
--------------------------------------
+25 Damage - with Power Attack
(+1 with Rage Potion)


Feats:
--------------------------------------
1) Power Attack
1) Weapon Focus: Slashing
1B) Dodge
2B) Combat Expertise
3) Toughness
4B) Stunning Blow
6)
6B) Improved Trip
8B) Improved Critical: Slashing
9)
10B) Power Critical: Slashing
12)
12B) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh

(3 Open Feats, can't think of what to put here right now. - Weapon Spec/GWF/GWS or Precision/SM/ISM, or what?)


Enhancements:
--------------------------------------
Fighter's Armor Mastery 2
Fighter's Strength 3
Human Versatility 4
Fighter's Tower Shield Mastery 1
Critical Accuracy 2/3
Item Defense 1
Fighter's Tactics - Trip 2
Fighter's Tactics - Stunning Blow 2
Fighter's Toughness 4

(This is a rough guess at the AP's, not an exact count)

Saves:
--------------------------------------
Fort / Ref / Will

+8 / +4 / +4 - Fighter 12 Base
+5 / +2 / +2 - Paladin 2 Base
+5 / +5 / +3 - Stat Modifiers
+5 / +5 / +5 - Divine Grace
+5 / +5 / +5 - Resistance 5 Item
+4 / +4 / +4 - Greater Heroism
--------------------------------------
+32 / +25 / +23 - Standing w/ Greater Heroism


Hit Points:
--------------------------------------
20 - Heroic Durability
140 - Fighter/Paladin 14 Base
70 - Con Bonus
16 - Toughness
50 - Fighter's Toughness 4
10 - Draconic Vitality
30 - Greater False Life
--------------------------------------
336 Hit Points

Dworkin_of_Amber
07-31-2007, 09:31 AM
Attempt #2: Dwarf
12 Fighter / 2 Paladin

STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (Fighter's STR 2) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (STR) = 30 (+10)
DEX: 15 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Dwarven CON 2) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
INT: 12 + 1 (Tome) = 13 (+1)
WIS: 8 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 10 + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)


AC:
--------------------------------------
10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Full Plate (Armor)
6 - Dex Bonus (using FAM 2 & DAM 1 & FTSM 2) (Dex)
9 - +5 Mithral Tower Shield (Shield)
5 - Protection Item (Deflection)
2 - Chaosguarde (Dodge)
3 - Chattering Ring (Dodge)
3 - Seal of the Earth (Natural)
1 - Paladin Aura (Misc)
1 - Dodge Feat
--------------------------------------
53 AC - Standing, Unbuffed, Unstanced
--------------------------------------
1 - Haste Potion
5 - Combat Expertise
--------------------------------------
59 AC - Self-Buffed & Stanced
--------------------------------------
2 - Recitation
2 - Ranger's Barkskin
3 - Paladin's Aura
--------------------------------------
66 AC - Buffed & Stanced
--------------------------------------
5 - Fighter's AC Boost - AC Boost
1 - Halfling's Heroes Companion
--------------------------------------
72 AC - Buffed & Stanced w/ Clickies


To Hit
--------------------------------------
14 - BAB
10 - STR
5 - Weapon
1 - Weapon Focus
4 - Greater Heroism
2 - Dwarven Axe Attack 2
--------------------------------------
+36 - Self Buffed
--------------------------------------
2 - Recitation
1 - Haste
--------------------------------------
+39 - with Buffs
--------------------------------------
-5 - Combat Expertise or Power Attack
--------------------------------------
+34 - Fully Buffed w/ Combat Expertise or Power Attack
(+1 with Rage Potion)


Damage:
--------------------------------------
10 - STR
5 - Weapon
2 - Dwarven Axe Damage 2
4 - Greater Heroism
--------------------------------------
+22 Damage
--------------------------------------
5 - Power Attack
--------------------------------------
+27 Damage - with Power Attack
(+1 with Rage Potion)


Feats:
--------------------------------------
1) Power Attack
1B) Dodge
2B) Combat Expertise
3) Toughness
4B) Weapon Focus: Slashing
6) Stunning Blow
6B) Improved Trip
8B) Improved Critical: Slashing
9)
10B) Power Critical: Slashing
12)
12B)

(3 Open Feats, can't think of what to put here right now. - Weapon Spec/GWF/GWS or Precision/SM/ISM, or what?)


Enhancements:
--------------------------------------
Fighter's Armor Mastery 2
Dwarven Armor Mastery 1
Fighter's Strength 3
Fighter's Armor Boost 4
Fighter's Tower Shield Mastery 2
Critical Accuracy 2/3
Item Defense 1
Dwarven Tactics 2/3
Fighter's Toughness 4
Dwarven Toughness 4

(This is a rough guess at the AP's, not an exact count)



Saves:
--------------------------------------
Fort / Ref / Will

+8 / +4 / +4 - Fighter 12 Base
+5 / +2 / +2 - Paladin 2 Base
+6 / +6 / +3 - Stat Modifiers
+3 / +3 / +3 - Divine Grace
+5 / +5 / +5 - Resistance 5 Item
+4 / +4 / +4 - Greater Heroism
--------------------------------------
+31 / +24 / +21 - Standing w/ Greater Heroism
+4 vs Spells


Hit Points:
--------------------------------------
20 - Heroic Durability
140 - Fighter/Paladin 14 Base
86 - Con Bonus
16 - Toughness
50 - Fighter's Toughness 4
50 - Dwarven Toughness 4
10 - Draconic Vitality
30 - Greater False Life
--------------------------------------
400 Hit Points

Dworkin_of_Amber
07-31-2007, 09:44 AM
Attempt #3: Human
7 Fighter / 7 Paladin

STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (Fighter's STR 2) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 6 (STR) = 30 (+10)
DEX: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 12 + 1 (Tome) = 13 (+1)
WIS: 9 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 12 + 1 (Tome) + 2 (Paladin's CHA 2) + 1 (Human Adapt CHA 1) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)


AC:
--------------------------------------
10 - Base
13 - +5 Mithral Full Plate (Armor)
5 - Dex Bonus (using FAM 2 & FTSM 1) (Dex)
9 - +5 Mithral Tower Shield (Shield)
5 - Protection Item (Deflection)
2 - Chaosguarde (Dodge)
3 - Chattering Ring (Dodge)
3 - Seal of the Earth (Natural)
3 - Paladin Aura (Misc)
1 - Dodge Feat
--------------------------------------
54 AC - Standing, Unbuffed, Unstanced
--------------------------------------
1 - Haste Potion
5 - Combat Expertise
--------------------------------------
60 AC - Self-Buffed & Stanced
--------------------------------------
2 - Recitation
2 - Ranger's Barkskin
1 - Paladin's Aura
--------------------------------------
65 AC - Buffed & Stanced
--------------------------------------
5 - Human Versatility 4 - AC Boost
1 - Halfling's Heroes Companion
--------------------------------------
71 AC - Buffed & Stanced w/ Clickies


To Hit
--------------------------------------
14 - BAB
10 - STR
5 - Weapon
1 - Weapon Focus
4 - Greater Heroism
2 - Divine Favor
--------------------------------------
+36 - Self Buffed
--------------------------------------
2 - Recitation
1 - Haste
--------------------------------------
+39 - with Buffs
--------------------------------------
-5 - Combat Expertise or Power Attack
--------------------------------------
+34 - Fully Buffed w/ Combat Expertise or Power Attack
(+1 with Rage Potion)


Damage:
--------------------------------------
10 - STR
5 - Weapon
4 - Greater Heroism
2 - Divine Favor
--------------------------------------
+21 Damage
--------------------------------------
5 - Power Attack
--------------------------------------
+26 Damage - with Power Attack
(+1 with Rage Potion)


Feats:
--------------------------------------
1) Power Attack
1) Weapon Focus: Slashing
1B) Dodge
2B) Combat Expertise
3) Toughness
4B) Stunning Blow
6) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kopesh
6B) Improved Trip
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Power Critical: Slashing


Enhancements:
--------------------------------------
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III


Saves:
--------------------------------------
Fort / Ref / Will

+5 / +2 / +2 - Fighter 7 Base
+7 / +4 / +4 - Paladin 7 Base
+5 / +5 / +3 - Stat Modifiers
+6 / +6 / +6 - Divine Grace
+5 / +5 / +5 - Resistance 5 Item
+4 / +4 / +4 - Greater Heroism
--------------------------------------
+32 / +26 / +24 - Standing w/ Greater Heroism


Hit Points:
--------------------------------------
20 - Heroic Durability
140 - Fighter/Paladin 14 Base
70 - Con Bonus
16 - Toughness
30 - Fighter's Toughness 3
10 - Draconic Vitality
30 - Greater False Life
--------------------------------------
319 Hit Points

Dworkin_of_Amber
07-31-2007, 09:50 AM
Ok, I've posted 3 sample builds. 12/2 Human, 12/2 Dwarf, and 7/7 Human. I guessI could work out a 7/7 Dwarf too, but I think this should cover the overall ideas.

Interestingly, going a 7 Fgt/7Pal split ends up costing 2 points of STR, but gains +2/+2 Divine Favor, +2 CHA, +1 LoH, BoG 2, RoG 2... It actually helps more than it hurts, so I think this is a viable split.

The real difference is Human vs. Dwarf, which really equates to:
Kopesh vs. Dwarven Axe
+1 Feat vs. +50 HP
+1/+1 Stats vs. +2 CON

I really don't think any of these builds would really have the room for Dwarven Axe Attack/Damage Enhancements... but they might.

Skills for all of these would be: Balance, Jump, Tumble (to positive). Any remaining points could be UMD or Intimidate

---------------------------------------------

I would love to see any other ideas/suggestions/builds to offset what I have here.

And I wish I could figure a way to get a WF up this high in AC, but I haven't been able to figure it out yet.

Please do not include multiple +2 or any +3 Tomes, because we cannot plan for those. As with any build, we can always improve with Raid Tomes.

Thanks guys.
Dworkin

Riddikulus
07-31-2007, 09:54 AM
Here's your cached thread on google if you want to copy it: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:mmBoaZPwbboJ:forums.ddo.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D1267135+site:http://forums.ddo.com+max+ac+decent+dps&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Dworkin_of_Amber
07-31-2007, 10:02 AM
Thanks Rid... I just found it myself! :)

But I still want to get some other discussion & ideas on this before I roll him and eat 5 freaking tomes! :)

Dworkin

rimble
07-31-2007, 10:10 AM
Thanks Rid... I just found it myself! :)

But I still want to get some other discussion & ideas on this before I roll him and eat 5 freaking tomes! :)

The only tomes that matter are Int tomes at level 1, if they push you up to a point to get more skill points. Everything else is completely retroactive, regardless of your choice, play him out a few levels. You could even push Dodge and Combat Expertise out a few levels to eat those tomes later and take Toughness, Stunning Blow, or Khopesh instead sooner.

cfoltz604
07-31-2007, 12:50 PM
You counted haste twice in your build for AC....I did not think the spell haste stacked with a potion of haste, hence only 1 AC not 2

Averroes
08-01-2007, 10:40 AM
Skills for all of these would be: Balance, Jump, Tumble (to positive). Any remaining points could be UMD or Intimidate


I play a 12f/2p drow built along these lines, though back when the cap was 10... He's actually one of my most effective characters at this point. From playing him, I'd strongly recommend maxing out intimidate, and I'd even consider going 13 base int +1 tome at level 1 to be able to put ranks in UMD as well.

Your AC will be high enough with this sort of build and the gear you have access to that you'll floor 95% of the content, gianthold included. If you're going to bother using a shield, you may as well let the barbarians and rogues benefit from your AC by guaranteeing that you'll have agro 60% of the time.


Beyond that, I'd probably pull 2 points out of con and put them into dex so that you're not dependant on 4 +6 stat items (str, dex, con, cha). Equipment slots are tight when you're wearing all of the AC gear -- bracers are gone, cloak is gone (or neck, for protection), both rings are gone for AC; I think the stats and AC you listed would be tough to pull off at the same time. I'd even consider going down to 9 base con to help out dex and charisma...

My drow has 6 base con (remember when hitpoints didn't matter because nothing could hit you ever anyway?), and it actually worked out alright -- 250 hitpoints with a +1 tome, +5 item, toughness and enhancements. That's plenty to go pop an intimidate in a room full of elite trolls...

He's tight for slots as well -- I have to change gear depending on what buffs I can get from people in the group... As I recall, his gear breaks down like this:
Head - wisdom 2 intimidate 10
neck - heavy fort/cartouche
trinket - luck 2 (head of good fortune)
cloak - resist 4/blur (dq)/greater resists
belt - str 6
ring1 - cha 6/poison proof/disease imm/resists/etc
ring2 - con5
boots - madstone (4 dex, 20% striding, cool madstone stuff)
gloves - bramble casters
bracers - chaosguards, of course
goggles - spec optics

And that all puts him at 28/22/12/14/10/24, saves of roughly 24/24/20 unbuffed, and the same AC from build as the dwarven version you posted. Standing UMD is 20 with above gear (and SF:UMD), 27 w/ cartouche and g-hero. Resist 11 and Shield 10 wands are nice...



That's about it. I like the 12/2 split a lot, as you retain access to all of the one-handed DPS feats (viz. greater weapon spec) and therefore aren't dependant on spells to maintain competitive offensive numbers. One-handed damage is inferior, any way you slice it, but I have a great time playing my intimitank -- it's cool being able to rez from a scroll as a fighter/pally, and intimidate gives you a remarkable amount of control over a battle...

Good luck figuring out what you want to do!

-Av

Cheg
08-01-2007, 12:54 PM
Build No.2:

You say you have +6 Max Dex Bonus. You are using a Mithral Tower Shield (+4 Max dex) with Fighters Tower Shield Mastery I. So that's a max of 5 dex bonus, right?

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-01-2007, 01:47 PM
Right... I guess I need FTSM 2... and I have to go back and fix Haste, as I counted it twice... I'll make the changes shortly.

Cheg
08-01-2007, 01:55 PM
I'm looking at these builds will big gleaming eyes. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the 2 Pally on them? I currently have an AC dwarven fighter at lvl 5, but i'm wondering if its worth getting those 2 Pally levels later on.

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-01-2007, 02:09 PM
@Averros - Hrmm... let's see what fits, equipment wise

Armor: +5 Mithral Full Plate
Shield: +5 Mithral Heavy/Tower Shield
Goggles: Spectacular Optics
Helm: +6 WIS
Necklace: BAM Necklace
Trinket: +5 Resistance
Cloak: +6 CHA
Belt: +6 CON
Gloves: +6 STR
Boots: +6 DEX
Bracers: Chaosguarde
Ring: Seal of the Earth
Ring: Chattering Ring


That covers the major points, but does have a few weaknesses:
1) +4 Protection instead of +5
2) No Feather Fall

Hrmm... let's see, I already have +6 STR Ring, and Barkskin +3 pots are cheap... so let's change it up:

Armor: +5 Mithral Full Plate
Shield: +5 Mithral Heavy/Tower Shield
Goggles: Spectacular Optics
Helm: +6 WIS
Necklace: Heavy Fort/Cartouche
Trinket: Good Luck/Feather Fall
Cloak: +6 CHA
Belt: +6 CON
Gloves: +6 DEX
Boots: Striding/Feather Fall
Bracers: Chaosguarde
Ring: +6 STR (I already have one of these!)
Ring: Chattering Ring


That still sucks... but it's better... Damn I wish something other than INT was available on Goggles!
It leaves no room for Resistance Item... and still only Protection +4... so -1 AC, rely on Barkskin Pots and -5 Resistance, but my saves are pretty good anyways

Slayer918
08-02-2007, 01:18 AM
Spectacular optics are +3 protection not +4 (+4 resistance bonus to reflex save).

Tanka
08-02-2007, 10:31 AM
Your best Goggle slot is going to be the DQ goggles -- True Seeing and Blindness Ward in one neat little package.

Honestly, I'd dump the Wis helm for a Cha helm, then you can get a +5 Prot cloak.

Your saves are going to be through the roof anyway. A +3 difference will very rarely come into play.

Swordalot
08-02-2007, 01:01 PM
I'm planning on following this build pretty closely as the Dwarven Fighter12/Pally2. My projected equipment will hopefully be as follows:

Head- +6 Wis?
Neck- +5 Protection
Cloak- +6 Cha
Trinket- ?
Belt- Heavy Fortification
Ring- Gtr False Life
Ring- +6 Con
Bracers- Chaosgarde
Gloves- +6 Str
Boots- +6 Dex

For a well-geared Raid Character, it could become:

Head- +6 Wis
Neck- +5 Protection
Cloak- +6 Cha
Trinket- Pouch of Jerky (Gtr False Life)
Belt- +6 Con
Ring- Heavy Fortification
Ring- +6 Dex
Bracers- Chaosgarde
Gloves- +6 Str
Boots- Madstone Boots

Twerpp
08-03-2007, 05:53 PM
I like the dwarf build. I would definitely go with GWF/GWS feat chain. Although if you've got CE already improved trip is cool. More hp is nice and you dont have to max fighters armor mastery you can split it up between that and dwarven armor mastery so its cheaper..Dwarves have so many good enhancements there just not enough AP to get them all.

Slayer918
08-04-2007, 03:05 AM
You have Greater heroism adding to your damage... GH only adds to skills, saves, and to-hit not damage unfortunately.

Phaye
08-05-2007, 07:14 AM
Tower Shields get you -2 to hit :) (Almost equivalent to a -4 to strengh)

D'rin
08-06-2007, 09:46 AM
You could go with the cleave, great cleave line. This will help you mantain aggro by intimidating, cleave, great cleave, intimidate, cleave etc. This should allow all mobs to stay right on you.

Tanka
08-06-2007, 10:08 AM
You could go with the cleave, great cleave line. This will help you mantain aggro by intimidating, cleave, great cleave, intimidate, cleave etc. This should allow all mobs to stay right on you.
You underestimate the power of a poorly placed Firewall or Scorching Ray, or a maxed-Str Barb with a SoS. The Barb you don't have to worry about so much, but that caster that is now hopping around like a rabbit on crack? Yeah... Toast.

D'rin
08-06-2007, 08:48 PM
The cleave and great cleave may not pull them back. With the new enhancements to help generate hate you might be able to but not sure. I know intimidate will pull them away but the damage from cleave and great cleave against a max fireball may be just way to little.

usif
08-07-2007, 11:16 PM
Kardins eye makes the best trinket slot..imo it is equal to wearing a +4 resistance iteam and the luck stone(minus the skill increase)

Irongutz2000
08-07-2007, 11:26 PM
I may be a little late in this but u need 22 dex in ur build bro for fighters armour mastery 3 an mith plate.

+6 dex mod :D

Malachi_Stormlight2
08-10-2007, 05:13 PM
Just in case you didnt quite get there and I see you got close, when I was calculating the same max AC stuff the easiest to attain max AC was 7/7 pal fighter split on dwarves with maxed dwarven enhancements.

Swordalot
08-11-2007, 04:20 PM
Your saves on your first two builds are incorrect.
You list Paladin 2 as giving 5/2/2. Pally 2 gives 3/0/0.
5/2/2 is Paladin level 6.
Just a heads up before you drool over it too much.

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-11-2007, 10:09 PM
I will look over the entire build on Monday and revise, cuz it looks like I made a few errors.... I've been working on a companion-tool for Ron's Character Planner, for To-Hit, AC, Saves, Hit Points, and the like... trying to get it to auto-calculate everything properly. I started this tool after I posted this, so I'll run it through and see what I come up with.