PDA

View Full Version : Raids - Please make them all flag like Titan or Reaver



Riggs
07-31-2007, 07:06 AM
The pre-raid endless circle for Von 1-4 and the three Queen flagging quests are very irksome when compared to the 'flag once flag forever' mechanic of the other raids.

While the Von 1-4 is a really nice series of quests for example, you can run it only so many times before it becomes teeth pulling pain. Unique, varied, challenging to any party close to that level. But after many, many runs of the same quests, for the sole purpose of flagging, since there is no inherent benefit do doing the quests after a few times. No XP after a while, the loot is meh, and the novelty becomes stale after so many runs.

Hope this changes for the future.

Prinstoni
07-31-2007, 07:32 AM
/raises hand for a yes vote.

I'm not so concerned with the Von 1-4 Series, but this is especially insane, running all over the desert collecting items to fight the Demon Queen again (and again, and again).

That is why less than half of every player on every server runs the demon queen (or even has). I bet if you did a pole you would find that over half of all players have NOT ran the demon queen. The reason being is that those of us who have, would rather just run the preraid and raid, or just the raid, so we don't bother doing the series. (And those of us that have tend to be the ones that start groups for this kind of stuff).

Picking up the 3 items and running the preraid everytime is insane.

JayDubya
07-31-2007, 08:03 AM
Actually, I think it should either be all like VoN, or none, rather than this half-and-half monstrosity.

Value of multi-quest flag: Slows down the loot whoring.

Value of no flag: more fun for everyone!

I'd prefer the no-flag option, frankly. I'd even be happy with a longer quest timer, say, 5 days instead of 2 3/4ths. Basically, people could rotate between the raids, do one a day, and by the time they were done, they'd be refreshed on the first one again.

bandyman1
07-31-2007, 08:58 AM
I know noone asked for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway.

Running VoN 1-4 everytime you want to do the dragon raid is a PITA.
Running WK, OoB, and CoF everytime you want to do the DQ raid is a PITA.

What I would personally like to see, is 12 man pre-raids like VoN5 and Twilight Forge. The TOR and killing the dragons, and Against the DQ, should be scaled up for 12 people. And then you make the pre-raid + the raid the only parts of the raid quest series that need to be repeated, just like Twilight Forge.

That way, a raid is a multi-person run that actually requires more than 15 min. Having fun with a big group of your friends and socializing a little = a lot more fun IMHO.

tihocan
07-31-2007, 09:00 AM
I like the no-flag system too :)
VoN is the worst because you basically need to run them all at once (otherwise you can't find a group for it).

Shyver
07-31-2007, 09:36 AM
Actually, I think it should either be all like VoN, or none, rather than this half-and-half monstrosity.

Value of multi-quest flag: Slows down the loot whoring.

Value of no flag: more fun for everyone!

I'd prefer the no-flag option, frankly. I'd even be happy with a longer quest timer, say, 5 days instead of 2 3/4ths. Basically, people could rotate between the raids, do one a day, and by the time they were done, they'd be refreshed on the first one again.

Actualy multi-quest flagging doesn't slow down the loot whoring.

Those that run the raids as soon as their timers are up will run von 1-4 and then go straight into Von 5 & 6.

Since DQ's quests are not linked to the raid timer then once you complete it you can run each one (1 a day) till the timer resets.

The problem arrises because people have run it so many times that the "fun" of it has run out. we want to do the raid to be with our friends and get the loot. But do to the monotany of the multi-flagging quests people opt to do other things than run the Dragon and especialy the DQ.

This in turn hurts the more casual gamer do to the lack of people running these quests or willing to act as a guide.

I for one think the vons are fine since they can be run on normal 1-4 in 30-45 min. depending on the group. It's something that we've all gotten used to and if you want to do the dragon thats what you do.

As for the DQ i would be onboard with a "collect 10 of each item and x amount of bronze tokens". The ability to run the DQ every 3 days without worring about reflagging again and again would actualy breathe a bit of life back into the desert.

Gimpster
07-31-2007, 10:09 AM
That is why less than half of every player on every server runs the demon queen (or even has). I bet if you did a pole you would find that over half of all players have NOT ran the demon queen.
That claim does not make any sense.

If, hypothetically, there are players who can't run the 4 quests to fight Queen Laliat even once, there is no way those same players would run the 4 harder quests to reach Reaver's Fate, in ADDITION to collecting 60 relics, which means they must do around 40 more quest runs just to get in.

Gimpster
07-31-2007, 10:11 AM
As for the DQ i would be onboard with a "collect 10 of each item and x amount of bronze tokens". The ability to run the DQ every 3 days without worring about reflagging again and again would actualy breathe a bit of life back into the desert.
That claim makes no sense.

By definition, if players were able to raid Queen Laliat without reflagging, there would be LESS "life into the desert", because they no longer need to go into the desert to get reflagged. They'd just repeat the raid and never touch the other desert quests. You might think that's preferable, but it does not count as bringing life back to the zone.

PS. The desert has never lost its life, except in the natural and expected way level 12 quests become less popular when the level cap goes up to 14.

Baryn
07-31-2007, 10:21 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=114467
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=110695

Shyver
07-31-2007, 10:57 AM
PS. The desert has never lost its life, except in the natural and expected way level 12 quests become less popular when the level cap goes up to 14.

Maybe not on your server but the desert is a ghost town on Tharashk. Everyone when leveling does the usual grind to level 11 then jumps directly to Gianthold. The desert only gets run for the Bloodstone anymore. Few raids go into there and rarely is there an LFM to do the pre-reqs.


If, hypothetically, there are players who can't run the 4 quests to fight Queen Laliat even once, there is no way those same players would run the 4 harder quests to reach Reaver's Fate, in ADDITION to collecting 60 relics, which means they must do around 40 more quest runs just to get in.

Actualy I would argue the point that the gianthold quests are harder than the desert quests. Just because they are lvl 14 doesn''t make them difficult. The mobs saving throws are laughable in the hold while in the desert, other than the undead, it is much more difficult to get spells to stick.

Yes running the pre-reqs and getting 60 relics is a grind, however, it is a grind with a reward at the end. More people are willing to gind through that knowing that they only have to do it once as opposed to running the same quest chain over and over and over again every 3 days.

Laith
07-31-2007, 11:05 AM
No raids go into there and no one is LFM to do the pre-reqs.holy sweeping generalizations batman!

Shyver
07-31-2007, 11:07 AM
holy sweeping generalizations batman!

Yeah that should have read "Few raids go in there and rarely is there any LFM's for the pre-reqs", Typing at work :D gotta keep one eye on the office door and the fingers were moving faster than the brain. :eek:

EDIT: Changed the original wording...therefor I don't know what generaliztion you speak of. :-)

Laith
07-31-2007, 11:17 AM
Yeah that should have read "Few raids go in there and rarely is there any LFM's for the pre-reqs", Typing at work :D gotta keep one eye on the office door and the fingers were moving faster than the brain. :eek:
hehe, ok.

The same could be said for the Titan raid too. Now, that is an example of what we want raids to flag like, because then "people would run them more" (or some such thought).

Now, how do we explain the lack of titan raids? is it because of bugs? is it because it's difficult? Is it the rewards? Or is it just because the quest is old? It's a case where apparently the "ideal flagging system" apparently isn't working.

Or maybe the question is why Velah is still so popular (despite its flagging method) while DQ and Titan are now rarely run.

Shyver
07-31-2007, 11:28 AM
hehe, ok.

The same could be said for the Titan raid too. Now, that is an example of what you want raids to flag like, because then "people would run them more" (or some such thought).

Now, how do you explain the lack of titan raids? is it because of bugs? is it because it's difficult? Is it the rewards? Or is it just because the quest is old? It's a case where apparently the "ideal flagging system" apparently isn't working.

Or maybe the question is why Velah is still so popular, while DQ and Titan are now rarely run.

Well looking from MY, and that is the key word, perspective the Titan gets run almost constantly, at least in the circles I run in. Three titan raids a week vs. maybe one DQ run in a month.

It comes down to time. Myself, and other, would prefer to put forth a great effort to get "flagged" then not have to worry about it in order to run the raid. With RL issues poppin up here and there it is nice to know that on Tue. I can jump on at 8 and run the titan and Thur. at 8 I can run the Reaver. No worry about having to rush to get pre-reqs out of the way, no hassle of did I do that in the right order?, type of things.

And this isn't a matter of being lazy, it's a matter of time put in vs. reward, for both casual and power-gamers.

At least from my perspective and if you ask my guild it's skewed anyway. :D

Gimpster
07-31-2007, 11:31 AM
Or maybe the question is why Velah is still so popular (despite its flagging method) while DQ and Titan are now rarely run.
Easy. Three little words:
Sword. Of. Shadows.

Gimpster
07-31-2007, 11:33 AM
The desert only gets run for the Bloodstone anymore. Few raids go into there and rarely is there an LFM to do the pre-reqs.
That means nothing. You don't need more than 2 players to do all the prereqs and the raid, so why bother creating an LFM?

Raiding queen laliat is a matter of finishing a quest and then "Hey guys, what next? How about dq raid?" and then "Sure, what items do you need?"

Shyver
07-31-2007, 11:35 AM
That means nothing. You don't need more than 2 players to do all the prereqs and the raid, so why bother creating an LFM?


So why bother to play an MMO then.

Shyver
07-31-2007, 11:36 AM
Easy. Three little words:
Sword. Of. Shadows.

Th F.O.M boots are still nice too. :D

Laith
07-31-2007, 11:37 AM
it's a matter of time put in vs. reward, for both casual and power-gamers. just curious, how long does it take you to run a full titan raid (excluding flagging)?

I have run a full VoN1-6 or full DQ flagging/raid in about 2-3 hours. Thats with alot of practice, though some groups reportedly go faster. Yes, that includes "between times".

I'd imagine that the Titan, after alot of practice, would probably take 1-2 hours.

And, of course, the reaver's time is inconsequential (probably 10-30 minutes).

tihocan
07-31-2007, 11:37 AM
If, hypothetically, there are players who can't run the 4 quests to fight Queen Laliat even once, there is no way those same players would run the 4 harder quests to reach Reaver's Fate, in ADDITION to collecting 60 relics, which means they must do around 40 more quest runs just to get in.
Actually it happens a lot these days, just because it's so much easier to get into a GH group than into a desert one. And you can obtain relics from AH/guildies too.

Shyver
07-31-2007, 11:41 AM
just curious, how long does it take you to run a full titan raid (excluding flagging)?

I have run a full VoN1-6 or full DQ flagging/raid in about 2-3 hours. Thats with alot of practice, though some groups reportedly go faster. Yes, that includes "between times".

I'd imagine that the Titan, after alot of practice, would probably take 1-2 hours.

And, of course, the reaver's time is inconsequential (probably 10-30 minutes).

Typical Von 1-6 is 90 min.

Typical Forge & Titan is 60 min.

Typical Reaver is 15 min.

Typical DQ is.....well since they changed everything over to red named haven't brought her down yet...got a new technique to try this weekend though.

Blazer
07-31-2007, 11:43 AM
Typical DQ is.....well since they changed everything over to red named haven't brought her down yet...got a new technique to try this weekend though.

Since there are a couple of different methods for this raid, it's hard to say what is "typical". If you're going the way of the ranger, about 15-20 min. If you're going the way of the sheer melee power...I have no idea, never done this way.

Gimpster
07-31-2007, 11:44 AM
I have run a full VoN1-6 or full DQ flagging/raid in about 2-3 hours. Thats with alot of practice, though some groups reportedly go faster. Yes, that includes "between times".
Huh. My best time for Queen Laliat (4 quests + raid) is 66 minutes, counting travel time between quests. That is using the Haste spell.

Shyver
07-31-2007, 11:46 AM
Huh. My best time for Queen Laliat (4 quests + raid) is 66 minutes, counting travel time between quests. That is using the Haste spell.

Wow, I'm truly impressed. (no sarcasm) 66 min. for the 4 + raid seems very fast. If we were to run the 4 + raid we'd be looking at at least 2.5 hours I would have to guess.

Belfalcon
07-31-2007, 12:32 PM
it dont matter what mmo you play flageing is a part of life here is a copy/paste of World of warcraft forums

0. MC/Ony/BWL/NAXX Attunements | 07/31/2007 09:08:17 AM PDT
Is there any possibility of getting these attunements lifted since they are all old world raids? Doesnt make sense to keep the attunements since they are old world content which people dont really runa nymore other than for fun. Lifting attunements would be a nice way to let people go back and see what they never did at 60, its not like the loot is better than anything you can get from blues at 70 except a few items.

see same stuff diff game.. just deal with it and run.. no one is telling you need to raid.. so.

Shyver
07-31-2007, 01:19 PM
no one is telling you need to raid.. so.

Actualy with the severe lack of high end content Turbine is........:D

DagazUlf
07-31-2007, 01:47 PM
I know noone asked for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway.

Running VoN 1-4 everytime you want to do the dragon raid is a PITA.
Running WK, OoB, and CoF everytime you want to do the DQ raid is a PITA.

What I would personally like to see, is 12 man pre-raids like VoN5 and Twilight Forge. The TOR and killing the dragons, and Against the DQ, should be scaled up for 12 people. And then you make the pre-raid + the raid the only parts of the raid quest series that need to be repeated, just like Twilight Forge.

That way, a raid is a multi-person run that actually requires more than 15 min. Having fun with a big group of your friends and socializing a little = a lot more fun IMHO.

Yeah! What he said. :D

Riggs
08-01-2007, 08:13 AM
I know noone asked for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway.

Running VoN 1-4 everytime you want to do the dragon raid is a PITA.
Running WK, OoB, and CoF everytime you want to do the DQ raid is a PITA.

What I would personally like to see, is 12 man pre-raids like VoN5 and Twilight Forge. The TOR and killing the dragons, and Against the DQ, should be scaled up for 12 people. And then you make the pre-raid + the raid the only parts of the raid quest series that need to be repeated, just like Twilight Forge.

That way, a raid is a multi-person run that actually requires more than 15 min. Having fun with a big group of your friends and socializing a little = a lot more fun IMHO.

Ditto.

People used to like running Tempest in part because it was a pick up 12 person raid. No pre-req, just set an flm and eventually 12 people joined up and usually had fun.

With the change to the loot mechanic, more groups will be running more people in raids. BUT those groups will have to flag in separate groups still, or in dribs and drabs in the days before.

Much better would be to "Flag once, flag forever" then just start a raid. Run Von 5 and Von6, or Twilight Forge and Twilight Core, Court of Liliat and Circle of Eternity. Tor and Inner Sanctum. This would be the best solution, to apply the current best practice to all the raids.

Draclaud
08-01-2007, 10:16 AM
I'd agree to make them all permaflagged. Might make the grind a little less painful, now that your chance of getting raid loot just decreased to 16%...

Mhykke
08-01-2007, 10:18 AM
I'd agree to make them all permaflagged. Might make the grind a little less painful, now that your chance of getting raid loot just decreased to 16%...

Agree.

W/ this new raid loot system, turbine has to eliminate flagging used by VoNs or DQ.....Once you do it, you have it complete, and don't need to run all again, every single time.

GramercyRiff
08-01-2007, 10:25 AM
Huh. My best time for Queen Laliat (4 quests + raid) is 66 minutes, counting travel time between quests. That is using the Haste spell.

Lies (joke). The run out to Burning City takes 30 minutes by itself (intentional exaggeration).

Seriously, we need to stay ready for VON and DQ. For DQ force us to do the pre raid over to get ready. I'd be fine with that. But if I have to run out to Burning City one more time...I won't ever be DQ ready again. It's a shame too, cause DQ is kinda fun and there are some good/great raid items in there.

hannika
08-01-2007, 10:32 AM
Value of multi-quest flag: Slows down the loot whoring.



i'm sorry i'm sorry. did you just say VALUE in slowing down the loot whoring? w.t.f.? loot whoring is all we have left :| that and rolling more and more toons. i actually have all 8 slots taken up now. we raid, we loot *****, we come up with new toon designs. there isn't anything to actually DO in ddo anymore besides that. what are we gonna do? take our lvl 14's over to house K to kill some dwarves just to look at the unnatrually blue water? treck out to siering heights just for the sunsets? cuz right now that's the only reason I'D be there.

Gimpster
08-01-2007, 10:43 AM
just curious, how long does it take you to run a full titan raid (excluding flagging)?
As it happens, I just led a pug Titan run with a bunch of first-timers. 54 minutes in Twilight Forge, 34 minutes in Titan Core. That's just under double my time with a regular guild team.