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Drailog
07-30-2007, 03:41 PM
I do not know about every other Dwarf out there but I personally feel slighted majorly by Turbine's change to our "Search" enhancement. Dwarves have an intuition with Stone and its workings. This includes secret doors, hidden compartments and even traps found within the stones itself. The fact they took away our Dwarven "Search" enhancement which I think was called stonecunning or something like that and Gave us Kundak Search is not a big deal except they FORCE us to take feats to get these.

So they took away our Racial Search in order to mplement Dragonmarks and give us Kundark Search. But let's be completely honest how utterly and completely worthless are the abilities of the Dragonmarks of Warding.... a little worthless fire trap for, if I figuerd it out correctly, 2d4 damage, Glyph of Warding for yet more fire damage and then there is greater Glyph of warding for even more fire damage.. what exactly does magical floating runes have to do with stone. Yes I understand the fact of Dragonmark of "warding" but the effects are horrible in the playing environment when compared to other dragonmarks... heals, trapsortations, combat prowless and stealthly stuff for pathetically damaging traps... which they force Dwarven Rogues to take IF they want a higher search... can you say no Dwarf = red-headed step-child.

Show us some love Turbine

oronisi
07-31-2007, 01:24 PM
I do not know about every other Dwarf out there but I personally feel slighted majorly by Turbine's change to our "Search" enhancement. Dwarves have an intuition with Stone and its workings. This includes secret doors, hidden compartments and even traps found within the stones itself. The fact they took away our Dwarven "Search" enhancement which I think was called stonecunning or something like that and Gave us Kundak Search is not a big deal except they FORCE us to take feats to get these.

So they took away our Racial Search in order to mplement Dragonmarks and give us Kundark Search. But let's be completely honest how utterly and completely worthless are the abilities of the Dragonmarks of Warding.... a little worthless fire trap for, if I figuerd it out correctly, 2d4 damage, Glyph of Warding for yet more fire damage and then there is greater Glyph of warding for even more fire damage.. what exactly does magical floating runes have to do with stone. Yes I understand the fact of Dragonmark of "warding" but the effects are horrible in the playing environment when compared to other dragonmarks... heals, trapsortations, combat prowless and stealthly stuff for pathetically damaging traps... which they force Dwarven Rogues to take IF they want a higher search... can you say no Dwarf = red-headed step-child.

Show us some love Turbine


Dwarves get PLENTY of love in DDO....in fact, they make the best _____ for like 2/3 of the classes in DDO...

Drailog
07-31-2007, 04:34 PM
Dwarves get PLENTY of love in DDO....in fact, they make the best _____ for like 2/3 of the classes in DDO...

That is because the people playing the Dwarves know what they are doing.



Barbarian - a good pick due to high Con
Bard - Not really a good pick due to low Cha
Cleric - Enhancements try to make up for NO racial Follower enhancement AND low Cha hurts some
Fighter - a good pick due to high Con
Paladin - Enhancements try to make up for NO racial Follower enhancement AND low Cha hurts some
Ranger - nothing of benefit here from a Dwarf to my knowledge
Rogue - High Con for more survivability, low Cha for pained UMD, No more Stonecunning for search now forced to take crappy Dragonmark feats for Kundark Search enhancements.
Sorcerer - Low Cha for the lose
Wizard - um yeah.. high con I guess helps when you **** the mob off.... for a whole whopping 14 extra HP with no armor class.


so it looks like we are good at melee type classes. NOT 2/3... 1/2 with a hit to 2 of the 4

Twerpp
07-31-2007, 05:15 PM
Wizard - um yeah.. high con I guess helps when you **** the mob off.... for a whole whopping 14 extra HP with no armor class.

Hehe it adds up to a little more than 14 hit points. +2 to base CON, access to +2 more Dwarven CON, and if you take one toughness feat you can access Dwarven Toughness 1-4 for an extra 50 HP. Thats 94 hit points counting the toughness feat itself. Thats an entire extra mage lol.

Drailog
08-02-2007, 12:11 AM
But Twerpp as a caster would you really take a race that only supplies you with HP and takes enhancements away from your damage output?

Twerpp
08-02-2007, 03:03 AM
But Twerpp as a caster would you really take a race that only supplies you with HP and takes enhancements away from your damage output?

Well I dont usually max out any enhancement it's too expensive and you always pay for it by a sacrifice somewhere else. Just pointing out that its a lot more than 14 hp, and if you build smart Im sure you wouldnt sacrifice too much to be a little more crunchy. Any successful Dwarf Wiz's out there want to chime in?

Drailog
08-02-2007, 08:04 AM
Haha yeah I understand Twerp, as for successful Dwarven Wizzies... I do not think I have seen even one on Xoriat.. well what was once known as Xoriat.

rimble
08-02-2007, 10:10 AM
That's really not a fair evaluation. Characters aren't 'classes', they are 'roles'. I can make a melee Wizard as easily as I can a caster Wizard (the comparable effectiveness of each is up for debate but irrelevant here). Saying a Dwarf is a bad Bard may be true for offensive caster Bards, but for buffer/melee Bards Dwarf is a bad mutha.

Dwarves are superior for the vast majority of roles that are played in DDO.

In response to your list, Dwarves make awesome Clerics and Paladins...everybody loves more Hit Points, Dwarven Armor Mastery can mean as much as +3 more AC, Dwarven Faith supplies more spell points, and then of course there are the axe enhancements...the -2 Cha is fairly irrelevant except for the most Cha-focused of these builds (DV-bots?)

Dwarves may also be the best Strength-based TWF Ranger race. Again, more Hit Points, higher AC, and axe enhancements.

Deusxmachina
08-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Well I dont usually max out any enhancement it's too expensive and you always pay for it by a sacrifice somewhere else. Just pointing out that its a lot more than 14 hp, and if you build smart Im sure you wouldnt sacrifice too much to be a little more crunchy. Any successful Dwarf Wiz's out there want to chime in?

A PUG the other day started asking people's hitpoints. It was amusing when my wizard had similar hitpoints as one of the fighters. The other had 400+ like they're supposed to. :)

Dwarves have good enhancements, but they do cost. The second level of axe damage is 4pts, and that's only for a +1 to damage. Nice, but marginal, imo, and that's also only if you use an axe.

The second level of con sounds good, but points might be better spent elsewhere. The saving throw ones are good, but dwarves already have good saves for free. Some people think the hp enhancements are overpowered, but that's A LOT of points needed (along with the Toughness feat itself) to make good use of them. A dwarf without Toughness or the willingness to spend 1/4 of his enhancement points on hp could arguably be more uber as a different race.

Dwarves make good pretty much everything since everything can always use more hitpoints and saves, etc, but to say they're the best race for most classes is certainly debatable. As for the original post, he is correct that it's a little surprising there's no search enhancement.

The thing about dwarves is even in PnP plenty of people think they should be considered a +1 level race. But, again, I think that comes more from dwarves being able to be good at pretty much any class than them necessarily being the best at a particular class and worse at another particular class.

rimble
08-02-2007, 02:04 PM
The thing about dwarves is even in PnP plenty of people think they should be considered a +1 level race. But, again, I think that comes more from dwarves being able to be good at pretty much any class than them necessarily being the best at a particular class and worse at another particular class.

hehe, yeah, -2 to a dump stat (for most classes) isn't a particularly good balancing factor.

Drailog
08-03-2007, 07:32 AM
the -2 Cha is honestly a bad dump stat in PnP IF your Gm does RP type stuff... but with a Negative stat in Cha people will not like you from initial meeting and it might just stay that way so you character(s) cannot find out the key information you need to press further on in the story arch. So as I said, Cha is only bad with a sucky DM

Drailog
08-03-2007, 07:40 AM
Rimble can I ask you why TWF..... When you have spring attack and attack while moving with two weapons you swing as fast as someone with only one weapon. I can understand when the mob is standing still for the extra swing. But you are at a -2 to all attacks AND I have yet to find a mob, except for golems and some raid bosses, that just stand there and let you beat on them and not force you to move with them.

With all this in mind. the only purpose of TWF in DDO for right now is the additional effect on your off hand.

rimble
08-03-2007, 11:21 AM
Rimble can I ask you why TWF..... When you have spring attack and attack while moving with two weapons you swing as fast as someone with only one weapon. I can understand when the mob is standing still for the extra swing. But you are at a -2 to all attacks AND I have yet to find a mob, except for golems and some raid bosses, that just stand there and let you beat on them and not force you to move with them.

You mean, why bother TWF? Or why do I think Dwarves may be the best TWFers? I think you mean why bother...?

I'm not sure what to say about 'why bother TWF'. THF, TWF, and Sword and Board are all effective styles with different caveats for each. My TWFers get their full attacks often enough, either by standing toe-to-toe with whatever, or tripping it (high Strength AND Dwarves get an Enhancement for this too!). The new AI is kind of weird and things run up to you and circle you...just spinning in circles will give you all your attacks.

Dual wielding the right weapons is a horrible thing to witness...Greater Banes, Wounding of Puncturing...*shudder*

I don't know what to say, it sounds like a pretty long discussion to compare the merits of THF, TWF, and Sword and Board.

LastNameRage
08-06-2007, 03:06 PM
Dwarves should not be complaining about enhancement's, if anything they will be getting a nerf before another up to them. Dwarven Toughness, Dwarven Armor Mastery, Dwarven Faith, Dwarven Tactics...It's really quite ridiculous how powerful turbine has made the race with these enhancements...They have now become almost the best race for all classes imho (and many other's).

Drailog
08-13-2007, 11:43 AM
Dwarves should not be complaining about enhancement's, if anything they will be getting a nerf before another up to them. Dwarven Toughness, Dwarven Armor Mastery, Dwarven Faith, Dwarven Tactics...It's really quite ridiculous how powerful turbine has made the race with these enhancements...They have now become almost the best race for all classes imho (and many other's).

And yet our Dragonmark is horrible for game purposes and it is required for our search enhancement. They do not have a Dwarf type religious enhancements for Paladins like follower of the silver flame.

As for the overpowered aspect of our enhancements.... yeah we have nice enhancements... BUT.. we cannot pick them all.. we have to be VERY specific with our builds if we want to be good at what we do. So it is not as simple as you say it is. Good enhancements means TOUGH choices.

Drailog
08-13-2007, 11:47 AM
I say give us our stonecunning back and start trapping doors and chests, not just the areas around the doors and chests.. this would make stonecunning null and void. for anything except secret doors in stone and traps set in stone.

rimble
08-13-2007, 12:03 PM
As for the overpowered aspect of our enhancements.... yeah we have nice enhancements... BUT.. we cannot pick them all.. we have to be VERY specific with our builds if we want to be good at what we do. So it is not as simple as you say it is. Good enhancements means TOUGH choices.

hehehe

Oh sure, I'm rich. But you don't know how frustrating that can be! I mean, it's hard choosing which of my cars I want to drive on any given day! You poor people don't know how easy you got it!

Hvymetal
08-13-2007, 01:24 PM
The dragonmarks do not serve very well for any of the races except in certain cases and certain builds, my Dwarven Ranger/Rouge x/1 likes the dwarven dragon mark well enough:)

Seriously dwarves are extreamly well off and if I were you I would just hope they don't get hit with the nerf bat rather than ask for more.

Currently as things stand only 3 races have tha capability of hitting the search dc of the trap in cabal on elite without access to the top of the line gear and sacrificing almost every other enhancement, Elves, Drow, & Dwarves, don't need it be happy with what they get and hope not to get nerfed back to the stone age would be my advice.

Drailog
08-13-2007, 01:47 PM
Ouch Rimble, be nice.. I am not rich.. I am just well off. As for Armor Mastery enhancements, sure it is nice but you are still heavily limited by the number of enhancements you get.....

SOOOOOOOOO you wanna be a Dex Fighter.. sure no problem... and what's that you have +5 Mithril Chain Shirt that you were lucky enough to afford or find. Nice 9 Armor Class and 6 max dex.. hey let's take Dwarven Armor Mastery II amd Fighter's Armor Mastery II. I now can have a 10 Max Dex on my Mithril Chain Shirt but HEY I am a Dwarf and Limited to 18 starting Dex! I just spent 12 of my 56 Action Points on doing that.... ok so now I need some Con to stay alive and some Strength For damage so Fighter's Strength III for 12 Action Points and Dwarven Constitution II for 6 Action Points. So I have now used 30 of my 56 Action points.... wow now I only have 26 points left for Fighter's Toughness and Dwarven Toughness..... sooooooooo Dwarven Toughness IV for 10 points and Fighter's Toughness IV for 10 points.... hey now I only have 6 point left....


So yeah it is nice but it is NOT as awesome as alot of people make it out to be. I now need a 30 Dex to fill my armor in so I need to start, as a Dwarf with 18 Dex spend my 3 Ability increases on it, find a +3 Dex Tome AND have a +6 Dex item to fill it in so not my Strength and Con have taken a huge hit unless I want a negative in my mental stats.... So I start out with

Strength 16
Dexterity 18
Constitution 16
Intellegence 8
Wisdom 8
Charisma 6

so i have a
Max Strength of 28 with a a +3 Tome, Ftr Str III, and +6 item
Max Dexterity of 30 with a +3 Tome, +3 from Ability increases, and +6 item
Max Constitution of 26 with a +2 Tome, +2 Dwv Con II, and +6 item

so I will have approximately x HP
20 Hero Feat
140 14 level Fighter
112 Con Score
16 Toughness Feat
50 Dwarven Toughness IV
50 Fighter Toughness IV
10 Argonessian Rep
398 Total HP

... You might think, wow this is a nice build... but realize that this is for a tank type only or maybe a ranged fighter but sucks horribly for a Sorcerer, Wizard, Paladin, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, Cleric

Yes Dwarves have some great enhancements but, imo, they are meant for tanking purposes because Dwarves are known for their combat prowless no matter what world you look at. So once again I say that Dwarves are NOT the best race for caster type classes unless you plan on an off-the-wall-build

Shade
08-19-2007, 01:49 AM
So they took away our Racial Search in order to mplement Dragonmarks and give us Kundark Search.

They did?

Maybe they took urs.. My dwarf still has his free racial search bonus. Infact its more powerful then the PnP version too. PnP give you +2 search when you search in stone areas.. DDOs version works everywhere.

We get +2 search for free, and the ability to enhance that further with racial enhancements.. Then if you want to go all out, you can even go the dragon mark, which stacks with all the other mods i mentioned. Good deal imo! Makes dwarf the best searchers next to drow (actualy slightly better if u get the dragonmark I think? )

Souless
12-24-2007, 10:25 PM
U know what....Doofs are WWWWWAAAAAYYYYYYYY OVERPOWERED! be ready for the nerf hammer......as 1 human (that has been hammerd) to another!

here's hoping ur hammer hits u as hard as the 1 that hit me!

The Bytcher~

Hvymetal
12-25-2007, 04:18 AM
U know what....Doofs are WWWWWAAAAAYYYYYYYY OVERPOWERED! be ready for the nerf hammer......as 1 human (that has been hammerd) to another!

here's hoping ur hammer hits u as hard as the 1 that hit me!

The Bytcher~Holy Necro Batman!!!! (and I think you get extra necro points for bringing up the human versatility nerf....:))

query
01-08-2008, 01:45 AM
[snip]
Wizard - um yeah.. high con I guess helps when you **** the mob off.... for a whole whopping 14 extra HP with no armor class.
so it looks like we are good at melee type classes. NOT 2/3... 1/2 with a hit to 2 of the 4

Trust me: I have played a Dwarven Wizard for RP purposes; the saves, racial sturdy for balance and (yes even) extra HP pay off.
Sorry to bring up such an old post...

Giantsbane
02-15-2008, 09:03 PM
Dwarves should not be complaining about enhancement's, if anything they will be getting a nerf before another up to them. Dwarven Toughness, Dwarven Armor Mastery, Dwarven Faith, Dwarven Tactics...It's really quite ridiculous how powerful turbine has made the race with these enhancements...They have now become almost the best race for all classes imho (and many other's).

Almost the best race? We have always been, and will always be the best race. What other race can drink themselves into a coma and still kick butt while trying to find their axe? :D

wolfy42
04-07-2008, 10:06 PM
Yeah my highest lvl wizard so far was a dwarf and a blast to play. I even played him over my drow wizard because it was just so fun to have a wizard with so many hp.

Dex is pretty much worthless after the early game for wizards. Strength isn't needed past enough to carry stuff which you can bulls strength yourself into almost right away (I did start off with a 10 strength though).

So a dwarven wizard really has only 2 main stats that are needed......int and con and with a 32 point build you can go with this:

Str 08 (0)
Dex 8 (0)
Con 20 (16)
Int 18 (16)
Wis 8 (0)
Cha 6 (0)

Seems like overkill on the con but Boosting strength and up a bit is easy and dex becomes pointless fast. Wisdom is just a small boost to saving throws and cha isn't going to matter much anyway.

Therefore the choice is between dwarf/warforged or drow since those are the classes that get a bonus to stats important for a wizard. Admitingly drow get bonus spell points and SR etc.....but the dwarf gets more hp AND toughness bonuses. Not to mention while a drow gets +2 to int, it also gets -2 to con which is a negative.

A normal wizard gets 4 hp per level.....a dwarven wizard gets 2 extra hp per level compared to an elf or drow from con bonus (+2 instead of -2) if they both spend the same # of creation points. In addition the dwarven wizard can spend AP to snag another 50 hp through toughness feats...which is = another 3 hp per level right now compared to a drow/elf etc.

End result is a dwarven wizard can have quite a nice max hp allowing him to survive attacks that would obliterate a normal wizard and keep on going. You get spells like displacement, blur etc...which is more effective then AC anyway and makes your hp all that more useful.

Add in the bonus to saves vs spells a dwarf gets, dwarven constitution (2 bonus con for the cost of 6 ap..boosting hp even higher) and the bonus to balance a dwarf gets (not to mention search which will be high from your int already and usable even with it only be cross class) and you have a winner.

I much prefered my dwarf wizard then my drow.....drow had +1 DC on spells from higher int. Dwarf had 2x as many hp. Drow was decent at ranged attacks in the early levels and a bit harder to hit but by lvl 6 or so both of those stopped being an advantage. Drow had a bit more spell points (about 100 all together I think) but I'd trade 100 mana for a permanent spell that doubles your max hp any day.