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Dkmafia
07-26-2007, 08:39 PM
Lets face it, this game is extremely dependent on gear. The problem is, newer players see us old timers and try to replicate our actions without having the gear to back it up. This guide is meant to be a lesson in tactics until you are able to gauge for yourself how effective you are. This is a guide that will allow you to be incredibly useful to your group without having the best gear around, which will in-turn get you that much needed gear.

In today’s DDO you have the ability to swap out feats later on. So no matter what the focus of your build is later on when you have the gear to support it, you can take a few staples now that will make getting there A LOT easier. Keep that in mind during character creation. Also, don't be afraid to ask players questions. We were all new once, even if most of us wont admit it.

Great feats in general, but EXCEPTIONAL for a noobie:
Precision
Combat Expertise
Improve Trip
IMP Sunder

Gear you should look for:
Cursing
Destruction
+tactics (IE vertigo, shatter)
Wounding and/or puncturing

Lets use some examples of how effective those very easy to obtain weapons and great feats can be. Your fighter has a +20 to hit. You are against a mob with AC40. Safe to say you die correct?

Slap on precision you have a +24 and add the attack progression bonus, you should hit him with a destruction. Now you affectively have a +28 to hit because of the mobs -4AC. You can now reduce it’s AC to 36 (because of destruction), 32 (because of sunder) and finally 28 (because you tripped him and he’s prone), not to mention he isn't attacking you anymore so you have time for your poor terrified cleric to patch you up. Turn off precision and smack away at him. To recap, you can hit him on a 4.

Dkmafia
07-26-2007, 08:40 PM
Group Dynamics consist of knowing YOUR limitations within any party.

We will start with “tanks” - A tank is your frontline combatant and usually main source of DPS. For a new player this can be hard to play. Most people want to run elite runs that require multiple named weapons and/or greater bane. The spell casters have high DC spells and the mobs hit AC50 fairly easily. But you want to do your job as a tank and fight these mobs. Answer is AC + saves + weapons listed above. DPS fighters are extremely gear dependent! No one realizes this. You build a super DPS barbarian but dont have great gear, I will out DPS you with a crappy caster (yes I mean in melee) with one spell and a rare weapon. That's sad!

Also remember casters get aggro when they CC things, so make sure to intimidate or hit every mob. You don't have to kill everything you hit, hit it to half and let it beat on you while the group kills it.

Everyone in DDO can do dmg if geared out correctly. Not everyone can live. Build a defensive tank at first until you know better yourself how you play. Use stat dmg, destruction, cursing, sunder etc.. To help the party take down the mob. The best path to DPS is having everyone in the party involved. You have high saves, high DR while shield blocking and a good AC you will survive and your cleric will love you for it.


Casters - PK/FoD are a waste of mana, no discussion, no argument, it’s simply a waste. This game happens to be easy enough that a select few can run through a quest and really just one shot everything. But they also have extremely high DC spells, and high end mana items. You don’t, so area affect is your friend. Web, hypno, charm (yes charm, ill explain in a sec). Your best ability as a caster is crowd control, no one does it better. Even with all the feats and enchantments you will never out damage even a marginal fighter. Sorry.. It’s true, do the math. Let the tank draw them in and smack a web on the group, bang, no one gets hurt. Charm can also do this in large groups, charm one and the rest will rush him, not only taking aggro off the group it gives them +2 to hit the mobs! The charmed guy will most likely die in the fight and your group will take minimal damage with no threat of aggro coming back to you. Also buffing your tanks can help alot. As you grow and progress as a caster you will learn when and where you can have some fun. When I first made a caster (waayyy back in the day) I practiced conserving mana for as long as I could while being effective (we also had half the mana then and no +DC items). This allowed me to correct any problems the group ever ran into, kinda like a free reset button. When the time comes you are capable of PK/FoD and firewalling your way though, you will be better at it because of this tactic.

Rangers - I fear rangers most of the time, often the last thing I will invite to a group. Why? Because no one looks at the potential of a ranger. Rangers are good at nothing, but ok at everything. Play them as a support character. Good survivability, good spells to protect the group, good damage. You are frontline at nothing. But an exceptional secondary to any of those jobs making everyone in the groups life easier. Help the tank bring down baddies, pull aggro off the less squishy, heal the rogue while he does his stunts, conserve the clerics mana by buffing. But don’t try to be a frontline fighter.

Clerics - Clerics are by far the most versatile class. They can be good fighters, casters, buffers etc.. But simple fact is, they are second to none in the healing department. A good cleric is a dime a dozen, an exceptional cleric is a prize. When I don't have to worry about anything I will do my best as a tank to make sure no one gets hurt. Talk to your group, make sure they have the proper buffs to not take dmg, make sure your heals hit big and don't ever loose $$ on quest unless you can afford it. In a good group (unless you doing something much harder then you are capable.) the clerics should make it through on mana alone. If you are not, your group isn't helping you. I see a lot of clerics get abused with flashy tactics and bad play styles by their group. Cleric needs to take charge and TELL THEM what you need to help you make sure they live.

Bards - Another phenomenally versatile class. Use the listed weapons above and precision to further help the group. You can’t fight well enough to get aggro, so swing away with a destruction, curse spewing etc.. Your buffs are second to none. Nothing in the game gives what your songs can, and they stack with everything. While fascinate is a great tactic for CC, a wiz/sorc can do it better. Make sure you focus your songs and use weapons that will assist the group.

Most important misconceptions of the game that I think need to be addressed:

Casters do dmg: This is a horrible misconception. Taking Max and Empower and running in, or even worse, not taking these feats and trying to do dmg. If a caster has aggro, the group has to chase the mob, meaning no one is hitting it but you (and not you because you have to run). You cannot out dmg a group even if you found a way to out damage a melle. Which by itself is almost impossible. You do however do good AE (area effect dmg) in a controlled environment. Do not take max and empower as a new player, focus on CC until you know better.

AC is worthless: To little AC is worthless. Never to much. Staying alive on a tank can involve releasing the attack button occasionally. Shield block and swing between the mobs attack animations using your crippling feats and weapons. Sure not every tank is going to have a high 50’sAC, but that's fine if you KNOW you don’t have high 50’s AC. Use tactics to even the odd’s. Don’t let mobs flank you! They get +2 to hit you! I do also believe they get some form of overbearing +, but I see no rules to confirm it. Basically the more mobs in combat the more you get hit. Plant yourself in a corner or doorway with your back to wall and watch how little you get hit when swarmed with mobs. Also trip the center most mob and leave him tripped, he will block 2 from attacking you leaving you to deal with only 2 mobs in a crowd.

The point of this is not for you to play cookie cutter builds, it’s for you to learn the basics before you design your idea of a super char. Game is about having fun and I support people “playing what I want”, if that's you, then this is not your guide. But that does not mean you cant benifit from using tactics. But if you feel you are unable to complete quests and hard pressed to get gear, then this is the guide for you.

The most important thing in this game is that the party works together. Even something as simple as 2 tanks using the same stat damager can make harder quests go smoothly. Or passing aggro on hard hitting mobs, meaning when you have the mobs aggro you block and the other guy swings. Make sure the paly stands close or the caster lays his CC before you charge (so he doesnt miss and/or get 1 and get the aggro of the rest). Talk to your group, talk to your group TALK TO YOUR GROUP.

Disclaimer: This guide was meant to help new players. Any constructive criticism and/or comments are always welcome. Please avoid flame wars about how your char is super etc etc.. Keep this constructive and informative.

Thank you for reading.

Dkmafia
07-26-2007, 08:42 PM
.. Reserved space for quotes/corrections posted by others..

Borror0
07-26-2007, 10:04 PM
<b>Casters</b> - PK/FoD are a waste of mana, no discussion, no argument, it’s simply a waste. This game happens to be easy enough that a select few can run through a quest and really just one shot everything. But they also have extremely high DC spells, and high end mana items. You don’t, so area affect is your friend. Web, hypno, charm (yes charm, ill explain in a sec). Your best ability as a caster is crowd control, no one does it better. <b>Even with all the feats and enchantments you will never out damage even a marginal fighter. Sorry.. It’s true, do the math.</b> Let the tank draw them in and smack a web on the group, bang, no one gets hurt. Charm can also do this in large groups, charm one and the rest will rush him, not only taking aggro off the group it gives them +2 to hit the mobs! The charmed guy will most likely die in the fight and your group will take minimal damage with no threat of aggro coming back to you. Also buffing your tanks can help alot. As you grow and progress as a caster you will learn when and where you can have some fun. When I first made a caster (waayyy back in the day) I practiced conserving mana for as long as I could while being effective (we also had half the mana then and no +DC items). This allowed me to correct any problems the group ever ran into, kinda like a free reset button. When the time comes you are capable of PK/FoD and firewalling your way though, you will be better at it because of this tactic.

What??? FoD and PK are a waste of mana?

Tulsa_Doom
07-26-2007, 10:18 PM
Pk and FoD arent a waste of mana. With sorcs hitting in excess of 1700 sps on avg without uber gear theres no reason for sorcs not to use those spells unless they want to let the melee kill something. As far as decent new player theres plenty of semi-static stuff you didnt list. I mean you want new tanks to get the dps feel, forget about cursespewing and go get a Carnifex. Dunno, not trying to start anything and to be honest I havent read the entirety of your post but the pk, fod comments made me react. Brand new players should they level their sorcs and get the right feats will be every bit as good as old vets in terms of usefulness sans great gear.

The_Silver_Griffon
07-26-2007, 10:29 PM
What??? FoD and PK are a waste of mana?

I think he means, as indicated by the title of the thread, that for characters without good gear they are a waste. His contention seems to be that without good gear you do not have high DCs or lots of spell points, so expensive all-or-nothing effects are inefficient.

That sounds reasonable to me, but I have no real basis for a personal opinion on this since I have not played a high level caster. I haven't even ever grouped with one since noone in my regular group plays one. (Yes, we play with no sorceror or wizard and usually no cleric either. :eek: )

Borror0
07-26-2007, 11:25 PM
I think he means, as indicated by the title of the thread, that for characters without good gear they are a waste. His contention seems to be that without good gear you do not have high DCs or lots of spell points, so expensive all-or-nothing effects are inefficient.

That sounds reasonable to me, but I have no real basis for a personal opinion on this since I have not played a high level caster. I haven't even ever grouped with one since noone in my regular group plays one. (Yes, we play with no sorceror or wizard and usually no cleric either. :eek: )

Well, I dare say that, even without uber stuff, those two spell can be really mana efficient, at least for FoD. Say you kill that cleric in one shot from FoD, you'll probably save lots of mana to the cleric. Also, those spells are really useful against orange named. PoP is much harder w/o FoD, PK or Destruction/Slay Living.

I mean, w/ a +4 Stat item (really easy to get), you're only +1 DC behind... that's it...

Tulsa_Doom
07-26-2007, 11:59 PM
Drow Sorcs with a +4 cha item and decent stats can hit 30 cha easy. With or even really without feats such as heighten, spell pen spells like FoD and PK are extremely effective. Gear has little to do with it.

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 12:45 AM
This is the direction I didn't want to see. But I hate to break it to you all, web = 25 mana heightened. Web = group.. PK = 2 saves for one kill and more mana - FoD = more mana for one.

Where is the no waste? These are mana efficient? Waste of a spell slot unless u in a hurry.

If you feel different fine, but this guide was intended for those that said "We don't have enough mana to get through quests" or think we need more shrines. The focus is on group tactics. How is PK or FoD doing anything for a group? You telling me if you have one spell left and group of mobs is running at you guys are you gonna PK one or web/hypno the group?

silverbullet55
07-27-2007, 01:41 AM
Lets face it, this game is extremely dependent on gear. The problem is, newer players see us old timers and try to replicate our actions without having the gear to back it up. This guide is meant to be a lesson in tactics until you are able to gauge for yourself how effective you are. This is a guide that will allow you to be incredibly useful to your group without having the best gear around, which will in-turn get you that much needed gear.

In today’s DDO you have the ability to swap out feats later on. So no matter what the focus of your build is later on when you have the gear to support it, you can take a few staples now that will make getting there A LOT easier. Keep that in mind during character creation. Also, don't be afraid to ask players questions. We were all new once, even if most of us wont admit it.

Great feats in general, but EXCEPTIONAL for a noobie:
Precision
Combat Expertise
Improve Trip
IMP Sunder

Gear you should look for:
Cursing
Destruction
+tactics (IE vertigo, shatter)
Wounding and/or puncturing

Lets use some examples of how effective those very easy to obtain weapons and great feats can be. Your fighter has a +20 to hit. You are against a mob with AC40. Safe to say you die correct?

Slap on precision you have a +24 and add the attack progression bonus, you should hit him with a curse. Now you affectively have a +28 to hit because of the mobs -4AC, not to mention he gets -4 to resist your trip and sunder. You can now reduce it’s AC to 36 (because of curse), 32 (because of sunder) and finally 28 (because you tripped him and he’s prone), not to mention he isn't attacking you anymore so you have time for your poor terrified cleric to patch you up. Turn off precision and smack away at him. To recap, you can hit him on a 4.
I think if you can is play a BRAD?! If your a newbie to the game with no pp no weapon's notta. Reason being a Brad has a great HAGGLE and you can sell junk to upgrade. I have a level 13 Bard with a haggle of 41. I use the Bard to buy all my goods for dirt cheap.

If you start with a Warrior lets say ok you have to spend a lot of money on REPAIRS and if you dont have money to spend then how are you going to get money to repair. And lets not forget Catacombs!! Very expensive to repair if your beating on a skeleton and then an oooze happens oh no.:D

Tulsa_Doom
07-27-2007, 01:50 AM
You are making this game harder than it is. New players can play a dwarf fighter or barb and do really well dps wise without cursing. Just decent stats and a little luck with semistatic rewards. Elf sorcs with over 1700 sps when they used to have 1200 is more than enough if they want to use instadeath spells. Web hypno curse it doesnt matter sometimes you have to stop playing with your food and just kill it. Making new players believe that cursespewing and shatter are worthwhile pursuits just not right. Last post, to each his/her own.

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 02:08 AM
I think if you can is play a BRAD?! If your a newbie to the game with no pp no weapon's notta. Reason being a Brad has a great HAGGLE and you can sell junk to upgrade. I have a level 13 Bard with a haggle of 41. I use the Bard to buy all my goods for dirt cheap.

If you start with a Warrior lets say ok you have to spend a lot of money on REPAIRS and if you dont have money to spend then how are you going to get money to repair. And lets not forget Catacombs!! Very expensive to repair if your beating on a skeleton and then an oooze happens oh no.:D

Ya.. You can even go a step further and level a bard to like 3 take the skill focus haggle, max charisma etc.. And have him in the begging.

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 02:18 AM
You are making this game harder than it is. New players can play a dwarf fighter or barb and do really well dps wise without cursing. Just decent stats and a little luck with semistatic rewards. Elf sorcs with over 1700 sps when they used to have 1200 is more than enough if they want to use instadeath spells. Web hypno curse it doesnt matter sometimes you have to stop playing with your food and just kill it. Making new players believe that cursespewing and shatter are worthwhile pursuits just not right. Last post, to each his/her own.

This type of ignorant attitude is why I wrote this. For pugs that ask "how" and say stuff like "I cant complete that quest".

Dwarf barb with only a moderate weapon is a mana sponge in madstone elite. When I can make up his extra damage with a nice weapon and still retain 100% of my defenses. Not to mention I can still have saves and hit the mob.

For example:
When I made my DPS build I had a +6wis ring and a kardins eye to make up for his weak will save.

Two +2 tomes to allow me to min/max his weak area's.

A guild that will run raids until I got the items I needed to flush him out.

What do you do when you cant plan for that? You sound like the rich guy that just tells you to pay your bills. I'm explaining how to live with no money.

Tulsa_Doom
07-27-2007, 03:32 AM
I think its one thing to disagree which I did, its quite another to insult. Theres no reason to call me ignorant because I dont agree with you. New characters which is supposedly what this post is supposed to be helping are not going to be attempting Madstone Elite with a toon with no weapons. And there are btw weapons that require no money just some luck ie Carnifex. A basic barb build with this can be incredible dps ; check barbarian forums (Shade/Maldini). You are advising new players to be too conservative. Since you like making analogies I have one for you; You are offering appetizers when the main course is within reach. You posted earlier that you did not want flame wars yet you are kind of perpetuating one here. Hats off for trying to help new players, I just dont think you are telling them the right things. I disagree. Nothing more or less. Have a good one. Luck in all your adventures.

KaKa
07-27-2007, 05:33 AM
Your information on what a curse does is incorrect. A cursed player or monster suffers a -4 to attack bonus, Saves (Fort, Will, Reflex), and Skills only. It does not lower AC that is Destruction. Also trips use an opposed strength check so a curse will not make you fail trips more, on the flip side standing up from a trip is a balance check which is affected by curse (Maybe that is what you meant).

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 01:43 PM
I think its one thing to disagree which I did, its quite another to insult. Theres no reason to call me ignorant because I dont agree with you. New characters which is supposedly what this post is supposed to be helping are not going to be attempting Madstone Elite with a toon with no weapons. And there are btw weapons that require no money just some luck ie Carnifex. A basic barb build with this can be incredible dps ; check barbarian forums (Shade/Maldini). You are advising new players to be too conservative. Since you like making analogies I have one for you; You are offering appetizers when the main course is within reach. You posted earlier that you did not want flame wars yet you are kind of perpetuating one here. Hats off for trying to help new players, I just dont think you are telling them the right things. I disagree. Nothing more or less. Have a good one. Luck in all your adventures.

Quote form Maldini build:

"4) Play smart. Playing a Barbarian takes a little more finesse than playing another melee class. Our strength is not in defense, though we can become very adequate hybrids. Don't stand in the middle of a group of monsters and swing like a madman. Instead let the defensive fighter or Paladin run in first and get aggro, then you jump in and dish out damage in addition to getting a +2 Attack for flanking. Any barbarian can always get max damage output with an intimidating tank on the team."

This is what you offer new players? You tell them to PK everything and have a barb tank stuff!? Do you actually play that cleric in your sig!? How many new players send me tells asking me asking me how I do things or how come they die so much. You would tell them grab a barbarian and carinflex!? I'm going to stick with ignorant, sorry, it fits.

Mand up there plays with a group of seemingly highly skilled veterans, including Roit I think, who plays an intimi-tank opposite this build. He also posted +5Mith FP in the build, dragon loot, +2 tomes and +4/5 protection items. This is also a 32 point build!

So some new guy comes along, tries to mimic this and gets raped when he double rages trying to achieve that +42 Base dmg and says on the forums how AC is worthless because even if his ac was decent to start with he now has -4 and a 2hander on and thinks his 12DR is going to save him.

Mand's build is an extreme example of what a highly focused barb can do. I can achieve +28 or so on a 1handed finesse fighter and still retain high AC, saves and a shield. With gear a new player can get. Thats the point. You don't have to sacrifice defense for offense.

ALSO.. If you are in a group with one of these barb's you can protect them and allow your team a chance to finish the quest by CC'ing instead of PK'ing. Group dynamics, not single player glory.

___

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 01:46 PM
Your information on what a curse does is incorrect. A cursed player or monster suffers a -4 to attack bonus, Saves (Fort, Will, Reflex), and Skills only. It does not lower AC that is Destruction. Also trips use an opposed strength check so a curse will not make you fail trips more, on the flip side standing up from a trip is a balance check which is affected by curse (Maybe that is what you meant).

Thank you .. I always do that! I will correct. Although curse does help your AC technically by giving them -4 to hit you. So still a great effect. And the trip/sunder thing used to be a save, but it does help them to stay down longer.

Tulsa_Doom
07-27-2007, 01:47 PM
Btw I was a bit incensed by you namecalling again and just realized I did some of that myself with title and beginning lines of my last post. I apologize.

Tulsa_Doom
07-27-2007, 01:48 PM
The repeated agressive tone of your post is silly. Maldini not Mandalini. Carnifex not however you spelled it. We are arguing now about playstyles not new character gear. Yes I play my cleric. As I dont see many new characters actually looking at this post I really wont post anymore. Seems like its just a back and forth argument on both our ends. Have a good one and dont get so worked up.

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 02:12 PM
The repeated agressive tone of your post is silly. Maldini not Mandalini. Carnifex not however you spelled it. We are arguing now about playstyles not new character gear. Yes I play my cleric. As I dont see many new characters actually looking at this post I really wont post anymore. Seems like its just a back and forth argument on both our ends. Have a good one and dont get so worked up.

Well fine I apologize also, but don't you see how you, as an experienced player, can influence a new player into false hopes?

How they will enter the game and put on +3FP and swing away with an 18AC while people like yourself will advertise elite LFM's? The goal of this post is to address those who want to be a group of experienced players, where they have no chance of dominating and be useful.

I have been leveling a lot of lowbies lately and noticed that even I have a warped concept of the game. I assume most people can easily survive in area's where they cant. I watch players struggle with what I consider simple tasks. Or I run through on my caster and always get the "that went smooth" at the end of the quest. Not realizing it's because I don't allow anyone to ever get attacked.

These are normal tactics for me, on most of my char's I watch the clerics mana bar more then he does lol. It's just habit for me.

Vinos
07-27-2007, 02:29 PM
Before I read it I though this was meant for adress new players leveling up thier 1st character. Kind of a guide through things like delera's and stuff. By the time you're running Gianthold you'll have at least +4 stat items and most of your feats selected. You may not have all +6 stat items and vorpals but gear-wise you're not far behind.

PK/FoD are NOT a waste of SP. If you PK something that is at 10% health then yes it is but if you are telling me that FoDing that caster in the back before he spams whatever nasty spell he's about to kill your melee's with then you need to re-evaluate your priorities. Getting a spell focus item and/or taking feats does not require uber gear. A better way to say it would be know what you are PKing and FoDing so you don't waste SP. Like don't PK a cleric becuase they have great will saves kinds of thing.

Vinos
07-27-2007, 02:38 PM
Wow I just read through the whole thing again and I must say you are sending the wrong messsage. Statements like All casters must use CC or rangers aren't good at anything merely OK is only going to get flamed. Rangers aren't good? Tell that to the ones that solo the DQ. Casters can't do damage? Guess you have never seen a firewall or a scorching ray or a cone of cold(seen them do 1500+ on fire mobs). I apprecatie what you are trying to do but you have got to change some of your absolutes. The great thing about DDO is that you can break the mold. You want to be a battlecleric or do an arcane psyco build or an evasion tank then you can and you can be great at it without "uber" gear.

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 03:42 PM
Wow I just read through the whole thing again and I must say you are sending the wrong messsage. Statements like All casters must use CC or rangers aren't good at anything merely OK is only going to get flamed. Rangers aren't good? Tell that to the ones that solo the DQ. Casters can't do damage? Guess you have never seen a firewall or a scorching ray or a cone of cold(seen them do 1500+ on fire mobs). I apprecatie what you are trying to do but you have got to change some of your absolutes. The great thing about DDO is that you can break the mold. You want to be a battlecleric or do an arcane psyco build or an evasion tank then you can and you can be great at it without "uber" gear.

Very true you can. How many time did you reroll before you did any of these feats you talk about? How is a ranger superior to a fighter? Just a fighter with less feats, unless, you include his spell casting and weapon diversity. Now thats whats makes a ranger amazing. He can buff, fight close or at range, has evasion and wide choice of skills. He is superior to a single focus build in any of those areas? He can fight better then a fighter? No. - He can buff better then a cleric? No. - But he can do a little of all.

How is a caster doing 1500points helping the group at all UNLESS it's in a controlled situation like I mentioned above.

This post was for people that dont know better. These are sound tactics that strengthen a group and raise your chances for success until you learn the ropes and can decide for yourself whats better.

Vinos
07-27-2007, 03:54 PM
Very true you can. How many time did you reroll before you did any of these feats you talk about?

I wouldn't know you'll have to ask the people who have done those feats.

How is a ranger superior to a fighter? Just a fighter with less feats, unless, you include his spell casting and weapon diversity. Now thats whats makes a ranger amazing.

But you didn't say a ranger was amazing in your guide.


He can buff, fight close or at range, has evasion and wide choice of skills. He is superior to a single focus build in any of those areas? He can fight better then a fighter? No. - He can buff better then a cleric? No. - But he can do a little of all.

Yes a ranger can fight better than a fighter and he has buffs that clerics don't have. +5 AC Barkskin is nice and they have resists and freedom of movement. They don't buff better they buff different. In fact alot of parties I am in the cleric has the rng or pally do most of the buffing.

How is a caster doing 1500points helping the group at all UNLESS it's in a controlled situation like I mentioned above.

I can't think of many missions where firewall isn't awesome. You must not have a caster or you would know the power of firewall/scorching ray or PK/FoD.


I will agree that certain classes don't favor beginners like a bard for example. You really need to have knowledge of the game before you can really play one well but saying that one class can't do X they must do Y is just silly.

isldur
07-27-2007, 04:24 PM
"Rangers - I fear rangers most of the time, often the last thing I will invite to a group. Why? Because no one looks at the potential of a ranger. Rangers are good at nothing, but ok at everything. Play them as a support character. Good survivability, good spells to protect the group, good damage. You are frontline at nothing. But an exceptional secondary to any of those jobs making everyone in the groups life easier. Help the tank bring down baddies, pull aggro off the less squishy, heal the rogue while he does his stunts, conserve the clerics mana by buffing. But don’t try to be a frontline fighter."........................................



First of all you fear rangers, you don't invite them to groups, because no one knows the potential of a ranger........apparently that includes you. Your later post shows you do know the potential of a ranger, yet you still don't invite them?
A low level ranger will easily out kill a fighter, without the risk of taking damage. And isn't survivability why your writing this? About level 6 the fighters catch up. A duo welding strength based ranger can keep up in end game at the cost of a couple of healing wands. The best bow is fairly easy to get (silver bow) and I believe its level 6. Easy uber weapon at low level. (kind of a shame that its one of the best bows still after 3 mods)

p.s ever play a melee class and have the enemy cleric almost dead and he heals himself? Or more annoying the shamon casting darkness? Ding Ding thats where pk or fod helps the group. Tho I will say flesh to stone is the new "hot" spell.

Good advice to people struggling is to buy things to help yourself, therefore the group out. House buffs go along way at lower levels. Lessor restore potions, cure blindness potions, cure disease potions, haste potions and of coarse some kind of cure wounds. Look for static rewards from quest (do a forum search) most weapons and gear you get from the static list will work fine until you find the uber gear.

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 04:29 PM
I will agree that certain classes don't favor beginners like a bard for example. You really need to have knowledge of the game before you can really play one well but saying that one class can't do X they must do Y is just silly.

I never said classes weren't versatile. I never said not use firewall (PK/FoD suck, sorry) - I said those above tactics are better for the group and will give you a higher chance of success so when you think you are ready to run through a quest firewalling, PK/FoD'ing you will be better for it.

And for the record I have currently 2 max DC casters in enchantment/charm.

As for PK/FoD - I am always amazed at how this offends people. There example is "what if PK the cleric and save the world" - Pk is 2 saves (2 of the clerics best saves) on one target for more mana then say, a web that can CC the whole group. FoD is just a more expensive PK, atleast it's one save, but still only one target. So is a waste.

I am not saying when im in a hurry I dont PK/FoD through. I am saying I know it's a stupid tactic when we are in a quest we have to pay attention in or with a sub-par group. More experienced charecters running through quests quickly is what made this a "smart and viable" tactic that has trickled down to the masses. When it's not, it's impatient char's that are running a loot run or speed run and have a group of self sufficient chars backing them up.

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 04:36 PM
"Rangers - I fear rangers most of the time, often the last thing I will invite to a group. Why? Because no one looks at the potential of a ranger. Rangers are good at nothing, but ok at everything. Play them as a support character. Good survivability, good spells to protect the group, good damage. You are frontline at nothing. But an exceptional secondary to any of those jobs making everyone in the groups life easier. Help the tank bring down baddies, pull aggro off the less squishy, heal the rogue while he does his stunts, conserve the clerics mana by buffing. But don’t try to be a frontline fighter."........................................



First of all you fear rangers, you don't invite them to groups, because no one knows the potential of a ranger........apparently that includes you. Your later post shows you do know the potential of a ranger, yet you still don't invite them?
A low level ranger will easily out kill a fighter, without the risk of taking damage. And isn't survivability why your writing this? About level 6 the fighters catch up. A duo welding strength based ranger can keep up in end game at the cost of a couple of healing wands. The best bow is fairly easy to get (silver bow) and I believe its level 6. Easy uber weapon at low level. (kind of a shame that its one of the best bows still after 3 mods)

p.s ever play a melee class and have the enemy cleric almost dead and he heals himself? Ding Ding thats where pk or fod helps the group. Tho I will say flesh to stone is the new "hot" spell.

Why because a ranger gets bow str? At first level mind you. So a 1ranger/rest fighter will out kill him.

-Fighters get ALL and more of the ranger combat feats.
-Dual wielding in end game doesn't happen unless your group protects you.
-Clerics cant heal if webbed

And as you yourself said no one does know the potential of rangers. I never said they were bad in anyway, I said their strength is in their versatility. Most people focus on the misconceptions of a ranger rather then their versatility.

"A low level ranger will easily out kill a fighter" How? Less feats, no spells yet, no evasion yet.. I don't understand. A fighter cant use a bow also.. This is banned? BTW: Braxton in my sig is an archer.

isldur
07-27-2007, 05:17 PM
Yes a fighter can use a bow, but the ranger more than likely will hit more often. I wasn't taking in to account specialized builds or even multi class since it was suppose to help people struggling.

I'm sure your archer plays very well but it is unlikely a noobie would have such a build.
example of ranger out killing a tank depends on the quest, tight quarters shouldn't happen, but say in stormcleave easy.

Just gets me upset when you say you hesitate to invite rangers to your group, then you proceed to say exactly why you should invite rangers to your group :)

Web isn't nearly as effective as it use to be and if you heightened it not really so cheap. At low levels it will save you lots of damage tho. Sorry but my wizard didn't get to level 14 to just use cc and let the fighters kill everything :D If the group is struggling I agree cc is the answer. (I know the feeling of having a charmed army to fight for you, it's fun , and effective unless they all break charm at one time)

Dkmafia
07-27-2007, 07:30 PM
Yes a fighter can use a bow, but the ranger more than likely will hit more often. I wasn't taking in to account specialized builds or even multi class since it was suppose to help people struggling.

I'm sure your archer plays very well but it is unlikely a noobie would have such a build.
example of ranger out killing a tank depends on the quest, tight quarters shouldn't happen, but say in stormcleave easy.

Just gets me upset when you say you hesitate to invite rangers to your group, then you proceed to say exactly why you should invite rangers to your group :)

Web isn't nearly as effective as it use to be and if you heightened it not really so cheap. At low levels it will save you lots of damage tho. Sorry but my wizard didn't get to level 14 to just use cc and let the fighters kill everything :D If the group is struggling I agree cc is the answer. (I know the feeling of having a charmed army to fight for you, it's fun , and effective unless they all break charm at one time)

Isldur I have a robe wearing intimi-tank and a wiz that can tank almost as good, I have a cleric built like an offensive caster, a fighter/wiz, a bard'barian and am planning a sorc/paly build soon - I am not preaching cookie cutter. I like to let loose on my wiz too, but I can. This is written for those who can't. Or those that are in a group that can't complete the quest.

Turial
07-28-2007, 11:06 PM
Biggest bit of advice you could ever give someone who is just starting out in this game is that they should ask questions if they don't understand whats going on. The simple fact is that most of the players will respond to the question and give a reasonably helpful answer.

At low levels all classes have a reduced survivability when compared to capped characters. Yes, some of the classes work out better then others on a survivability curve. Gear makes up about 40% of your survivability while the rest is knowledge. Working knowledge, be it learned or innate, of the game will allow you to survive in many situations.