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Ilontu
07-25-2007, 05:32 PM
Greetings,

I had a few questions about DDO that I was not able to answer by searching through threads, and I was hoping some members of the community would be able to answer them for me. I've have little experience with MMOs (about 6 months with Asheron's Call and the same with WOW), but i do have a lot of experience with PnP D&D 3.5 (been playing 3.x since it came out). Most of my questions will be with how DDO compares with D&D PnP.

1) I blame it on the original gauntlet, but anytime a game offers you the chance to be a bow-using elf, I jump at it. I've gone and made myself a bow-spec'd Elven Ranger. Problem is, ranged combat seems so far to kinda suck. Admittedly, I've only gotten to lvl 3, but so far:

- I have trouble hitting, and I'm not talking about my to-hit modifier. If the enemy happens to go over a hill, go behind a pillar/wall at the second of release, my shot is wasted. When I switch targets in auto-attack, it seems the first arrow shot at my new target automatically misses (I don't even see a new d20 roll in the lower right corner, it stays the same as the previous; it's not making the same roll, because even nat 20s are missing).

- Rate of fire seems pathetically low compared to melee, even with rapid shot. I have trouble consistently taking down anything harder than a kobold warrior on solo before it gets to melee distance. This seems odd to me, because in PnP, one of archery's greatest assests is that while each of your hits is less than a 2-handed weapon user, you make many times more attacks than anyone else (because you can stand still and full attack, while they typically have to move and are limited to single attacks)

- When grouping, my arrows tend to be blocked by teammates 90% of the time, and by the time I move to a clear line of sight, the meleers have killed everything (because they attack so much faster their dps is 2-3x mine). I have separate questions on precise shot below.

After getting frustrated (and getting a nice +1 greatsword reward) I tried meleeing with my ranger, and found I was significantly more effective. While I do find situations where the bow is handy, its seems not so handy enough as to specialize in it; A barbarian with a bow on the side for pulling could do just as well and be specialized for the 95% of the time to bow seems worthless. In fact, I made a lv1 barbarian focussed on melee that does much better than my lv 3 Ranger. I do miss that search class skill though.

My question is, am I doing something horribly wrong? Does Ranged combat ever get better? Do Rangers contribute anything more down the road when a chain shirt and d8 HP don't cut it as a tank or my less than spectacular melee prowess contribute little to damage?


2) Precise shot. The feat gives little indication as to how effective it is because it uses words like "May pass through allies". Does it pass through allies always, usually, 50/50, or every once in a while? Is it an effective feat you recommend taking? Also, how well does Improved Precise shot work on down the road?

3) Ability Tomes: how rare are they are what are the limitations on using them? In PnP they don't stack (ie 2 +1 tomes to str will only give you a +1 to str) and there is a limit as to the inherent ability bonuses one may have? (i think in PnP you can't have more than 10 total or something...could be wrong).

4) What exactly does the Listen skill do? Spot alerts me to the presence of hidden doors/traps and presumably helps see "hidden" foes. Does listen contribute to finding stealthed foes? If you have maxed spot, does listen significantly improve your chances of detecting them? does it do anything else?


5) For various feats like weapon focus and imp crit, you're given categories. A bow obviously falls into "Ranged", but does it also fall under piercing? If yes, does have the feat separate for ranged/piercing stack?

6) I've seen mention made of future plans (like adding monks/druids/half-orcs, etc) on these boards. Is there an official place that mentions this? I've browsed ddo.com quite a bit and could only find mention of such things on the boards.

7) Tangent to #6, after the ranger, rogue is my favorite D&D class (I love skills, what can I say). But, with traps being pretty much in the same place all of the time, and usually having some way to possibly get around them, is it worth specializing my rogue do deal with traps and locks? Do groups usually just bypass them and have rather have another class along for the ride instead of a rogue? Ditto on scouting ahead. If enemies are always in the same place, is there much use for hide/move silent at high levels?

I must admit, with my Ranger, I do love sneaking up to a sleeping enemy and "waking them up" with my greataxe. Are there many sleeping enemies at higher levels? I might still max out hide and move silent just for how much fun that is.

Thanks for your time.

-Ilontu

jaitee
07-25-2007, 05:36 PM
Greetings,

I had a few questions about DDO that I was not able to answer by searching through threads, and I was hoping some members of the community would be able to answer them for me. I've have little experience with MMOs (about 6 months with Asheron's Call and the same with WOW), but i do have a lot of experience with PnP D&D 3.5 (been playing 3.x since it came out). Most of my questions will be with how DDO compares with D&D PnP.

1) I blame it on the original gauntlet, but anytime a game offers you the chance to be a bow-using elf, I jump at it. I've gone and made myself a bow-spec'd Elven Ranger. Problem is, ranged combat seems so far to kinda suck. Admittedly, I've only gotten to lvl 3, but so far:

- I have trouble hitting, and I'm not talking about my to-hit modifier. If the enemy happens to go over a hill, go behind a pillar/wall at the second of release, my shot is wasted. When I switch targets in auto-attack, it seems the first arrow shot at my new target automatically misses (I don't even see a new d20 roll in the lower right corner, it stays the same as the previous; it's not making the same roll, because even nat 20s are missing).

- Rate of fire seems pathetically low compared to melee, even with rapid shot. I have trouble consistently taking down anything harder than a kobold warrior on solo before it gets to melee distance. This seems odd to me, because in PnP, one of archery's greatest assests is that while each of your hits is less than a 2-handed weapon user, you make many times more attacks than anyone else (because you can stand still and full attack, while they typically have to move and are limited to single attacks)

- When grouping, my arrows tend to be blocked by teammates 90% of the time, and by the time I move to a clear line of sight, the meleers have killed everything (because they attack so much faster their dps is 2-3x mine). I have separate questions on precise shot below.

After getting frustrated (and getting a nice +1 greatsword reward) I tried meleeing with my ranger, and found I was significantly more effective. While I do find situations where the bow is handy, its seems not so handy enough as to specialize in it; A barbarian with a bow on the side for pulling could do just as well and be specialized for the 95% of the time to bow seems worthless. In fact, I made a lv1 barbarian focussed on melee that does much better than my lv 3 Ranger. I do miss that search class skill though.

My question is, am I doing something horribly wrong? Does Ranged combat ever get better? Do Rangers contribute anything more down the road when a chain shirt and d8 HP don't cut it as a tank or my less than spectacular melee prowess contribute little to damage?


2) Precise shot. The feat gives little indication as to how effective it is because it uses words like "May pass through allies". Does it pass through allies always, usually, 50/50, or every once in a while? Is it an effective feat you recommend taking? Also, how well does Improved Precise shot work on down the road?

3) Ability Tomes: how rare are they are what are the limitations on using them? In PnP they don't stack (ie 2 +1 tomes to str will only give you a +1 to str) and there is a limit as to the inherent ability bonuses one may have? (i think in PnP you can't have more than 10 total or something...could be wrong).

4) What exactly does the Listen skill do? Spot alerts me to the presence of hidden doors/traps and presumably helps see "hidden" foes. Does listen contribute to finding stealthed foes? If you have maxed spot, does listen significantly improve your chances of detecting them? does it do anything else?


5) For various feats like weapon focus and imp crit, you're given categories. A bow obviously falls into "Ranged", but does it also fall under piercing? If yes, does have the feat separate for ranged/piercing stack?

6) I've seen mention made of future plans (like adding monks/druids/half-orcs, etc) on these boards. Is there an official place that mentions this? I've browsed ddo.com quite a bit and could only find mention of such things on the boards.

7) Tangent to #6, after the ranger, rogue is my favorite D&D class (I love skills, what can I say). But, with traps being pretty much in the same place all of the time, and usually having some way to possibly get around them, is it worth specializing my rogue do deal with traps and locks? Do groups usually just bypass them and have rather have another class along for the ride instead of a rogue? Ditto on scouting ahead. If enemies are always in the same place, is there much use for hide/move silent at high levels?

I must admit, with my Ranger, I do love sneaking up to a sleeping enemy and "waking them up" with my greataxe. Are there many sleeping enemies at higher levels? I might still max out hide and move silent just for how much fun that is.

Thanks for your time.

-Ilontu

WOW, you know alot..you sure ur a noob?

anyways welcome to DDO. where the rangers cry and suck at everything they do, RANGERS are just broken to a point, some people disagree, but turbine needs to revamp how the bow rangers uses a bow, because as of now, bows are useless, not completely, but bows are narrowed down to soo little use

-my opinion, rangers are still lots of fun when you get to higher lvls

as for mobs sleeping...no one sleeps after low lvl stuff, hide and sneak is as of now useless to a point, because of the nature people tend to play in, which is faster something dies, is always best, why sneak?

cdbd3rd
07-25-2007, 05:47 PM
WOW, you know alot..you sure ur a noob?



No, not a noob, just a newb. ;)

There are a lot of threads dealing with not only rangers in general, but some of the bugs currently associated with missile combat. I don't do a lot of rangers, so can't answer how they do at higher levels.
However, my main is a repeater x-bow spec, and the missile combat bugs are bad enough (for me) that I have shelved her for the time being and am mainly playing melee chars.

Team-mates don't block missiles, but intervening mobs do.

I'd say stick it out, because I do see a lot of rangers who enjoy their characters.

KoboldKiller
07-25-2007, 05:49 PM
I love my Ranger/Rogue dex-bow build. They are very gear dependant though and take some skill to play. The rate of fire is slow and can be very frustrating (PLEASE FIX THIS). There are other issues as well with ranger combat (shots with no rolls, hits not registering to name a couple). I have seen high level dex builds tear it up however so if this is your forte stick with it. Go to the Ranger forum for a lot of good information.

PurdueDave
07-25-2007, 06:00 PM
Welcome.

You've hit the nail on the head for a lot of ranged combat. A couple of things to keep in mind.

You will be getting out killed even if you made a bone-crushing DPS-monster barbarian because a lot of the people are using much better equipment. Don't sweat it. It's just part of being new.
Try to get good at picking and choosing your targets. IMX, that's kind of the "skill" part of ranging.


As far as skills - spot is very nice for ranging. Monsters have a hard-on for hide. Other than that it's a matter of taste. Rangers get enough skill points that you'll have more than you need. Off the cuff...
Jump and balance are more useful in DDO than PnP. Listen is less useful. H/MS are about the same. Tumble is less useful.

cdbd3rd
07-25-2007, 06:06 PM
... Tumble is less useful.

Agreed, except for tumble - good for falls and/or jumping off ladders, stairs, stacks of boxes....

Definitely work on Balance. More and more mobs are learning how to trip - and do it very well, it seems. Wolves are Improved Tripping....

PurdueDave
07-25-2007, 06:11 PM
Agreed, except for tumble - good for falls and/or jumping off ladders, stairs, stacks of boxes....


Less useful than PnP (OP's background). Tumble is the cat's meow in PnP.

Borror0
07-25-2007, 06:11 PM
1) I blame it on the original gauntlet, but anytime a game offers you the chance to be a bow-using elf, I jump at it. I've gone and made myself a bow-spec'd Elven Ranger. Problem is, ranged combat seems so far to kinda suck. Admittedly, I've only gotten to lvl 3, but so far:

- I have trouble hitting, and I'm not talking about my to-hit modifier. If the enemy happens to go over a hill, go behind a pillar/wall at the second of release, my shot is wasted. When I switch targets in auto-attack, it seems the first arrow shot at my new target automatically misses (I don't even see a new d20 roll in the lower right corner, it stays the same as the previous; it's not making the same roll, because even nat 20s are missing).

- Rate of fire seems pathetically low compared to melee, even with rapid shot. I have trouble consistently taking down anything harder than a kobold warrior on solo before it gets to melee distance. This seems odd to me, because in PnP, one of archery's greatest assests is that while each of your hits is less than a 2-handed weapon user, you make many times more attacks than anyone else (because you can stand still and full attack, while they typically have to move and are limited to single attacks)

- When grouping, my arrows tend to be blocked by teammates 90% of the time, and by the time I move to a clear line of sight, the meleers have killed everything (because they attack so much faster their dps is 2-3x mine). I have separate questions on precise shot below.

After getting frustrated (and getting a nice +1 greatsword reward) I tried meleeing with my ranger, and found I was significantly more effective. While I do find situations where the bow is handy, its seems not so handy enough as to specialize in it; A barbarian with a bow on the side for pulling could do just as well and be specialized for the 95% of the time to bow seems worthless. In fact, I made a lv1 barbarian focussed on melee that does much better than my lv 3 Ranger. I do miss that search class skill though.

My question is, am I doing something horribly wrong? Does Ranged combat ever get better? Do Rangers contribute anything more down the road when a chain shirt and d8 HP don't cut it as a tank or my less than spectacular melee prowess contribute little to damage?

Put out simply, ranged DPS sucks in DDO. Ranged fighting isn't that bad when you got a few nice bows lying around. But not for DPS, the numbers have been ran and even a rogue w/o sneak attacks out-DPS a ranger. however, ranged fighting has the benefit to let you avoid damage as mobs have to get to you to hit you. ;)

2) Precise shot. The feat gives little indication as to how effective it is because it uses words like "May pass through allies". Does it pass through allies always, usually, 50/50, or every once in a while? Is it an effective feat you recommend taking? Also, how well does Improved Precise shot work on down the road?

No clue on this one, sorry.

3) Ability Tomes: how rare are they are what are the limitations on using them? In PnP they don't stack (ie 2 +1 tomes to str will only give you a +1 to str) and there is a limit as to the inherent ability bonuses one may have? (i think in PnP you can't have more than 10 total or something...could be wrong).

So far, there is +3 Tomes in the game, and they are pretty rare. +1 Tome can be looted from chests, but they are not a very common pull. +2 Tomes are a possible reward for finishing a Raid. Raids are twelve man adventure where you have to kill a powerful foe. All of them, with the exception of Tempest Spine, have a special warded chest at the end. There is only two item in that chest, and anybody can loot it. Those two items are decided randomly from a list of powerful unique-to-that chest loot. +2 Tomes are in that list, for every Raid. +3 Tomes are also a Raid reward, but only from the lastest raid: Reaver's Fate.

4) What exactly does the Listen skill do? Spot alerts me to the presence of hidden doors/traps and presumably helps see "hidden" foes. Does listen contribute to finding stealthed foes? If you have maxed spot, does listen significantly improve your chances of detecting them? does it do anything else?

Listen helps detecting sneaking mobs, and hear a few things. Not the most useful skill around.

5) For various feats like weapon focus and imp crit, you're given categories. A bow obviously falls into "Ranged", but does it also fall under piercing? If yes, does have the feat separate for ranged/piercing stack?

If a weapon is Thrown or Ranged, it will ignore whatever category can help it. A Throwing Axe isn't boosted by Imp Crit: Slashing but is by Imp Crit:Thrown.

6) I've seen mention made of future plans (like adding monks/druids/half-orcs, etc) on these boards. Is there an official place that mentions this? I've browsed ddo.com quite a bit and could only find mention of such things on the boards.

Here you go: http://www.ddo.com/article/845

7) Tangent to #6, after the ranger, rogue is my favorite D&D class (I love skills, what can I say). But, with traps being pretty much in the same place all of the time, and usually having some way to possibly get around them, is it worth specializing my rogue do deal with traps and locks? Do groups usually just bypass them and have rather have another class along for the ride instead of a rogue? Ditto on scouting ahead. If enemies are always in the same place, is there much use for hide/move silent at high levels?

I must admit, with my Ranger, I do love sneaking up to a sleeping enemy and "waking them up" with my greataxe. Are there many sleeping enemies at higher levels? I might still max out hide and move silent just for how much fun that is.

A rogue that can't disable trap isn't going to have a good reputation. A rogue thayt can't open locks is going to get an even worse reputation, think about those locked chests... ;)Regarding sneaking, there are people that like sneaking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHpsA7aANz4)!!!!

Symar-FangofLloth
07-25-2007, 06:21 PM
Even with traps always in the same place, most of the time you'll get the chance to disable them. Disable enough and you get bonus xp, plus it saves on party resources.
Ranged combat, as stated, is slow, and doesn't get much better. Precise shot makes it so you hit your target, instead of any monsters between you and your target. Improved precise makes you hit your target AND any monsters between you and your target. Allies are always ignored, even when you don't have these feats. (Description, if what you stated is right, is probably taken from tabletop and not corrected). Your problem might be from using auto-attack (please, try the game without it, its more fun), or you might be trying to shoot through walls (which will try to happen with ranged weapons).
Rangers, however, do help in a party. They can do decent damage, make good pullers, help with some buffs (most notably barkskin), and can use cure wands to help heal. Many rangers have such high dex they don't even wear armor at current end game, so don't worry about tanking. A twf-ranger works out fine too, if you don't want to range.
Tomes don't stack as per tabletop, and you can only get up to a +3 tome at this point (which is pretty rare).
I believe the rest of your questions were answered pretty well.

cdbd3rd
07-25-2007, 06:27 PM
Less useful than PnP (OP's background). Tumble is the cat's meow in PnP.

Ah, gotcha.

ToyVIP
07-25-2007, 08:42 PM
I wouldnt worry too much about Precise and Improved Precise, if ur a ranger, u get them free at lvl 11 anyways.

Ur rate of fire also does increase a little as u get higher level

A small piece of advice if ur using twf melee as a ranger or rogue is to let the tank sprint in and get agro first then come up alongside and deal ur damage, ur not going to get hit as much or as hard, the tank will take it all (judging its a decent tank build anyway)

Having STR will help a ranger as well since at level 2 u get Bow Strength which adds your STR bonus to your damage


On the rogue side, rogues are very useful creatures later on... its rare to see some of the higher level quests going on without one, not cause it cant be done, but because it saves so many resources, and with sneak attack, rogues can do some pretty severe damage at high level.


For both classes... if u ever get high enough to do a quest called The Crucible, and u have evasion, hide and move si come in very handy for one particular part but i wont give that away yet, u'll find out soon enough


On the down side there are bugs with ranged attacks... a ranger should be able to adeptly fire at a moving target and still hit it but at the moment we cant, as well as what i like to call AWOL arrows, arrows that u see fire, use from ur bunch, hit the cretin, yet no die roll is made.
from what i can see, ur d&d knowledgeble, but im guessing issues with all this is why they still havent fixed the way a ranger can take both melee and ranged and not have to choose as the core rules require.

take your ranger up higher level, make a rogue, it will be appreciated at higher levels, and im sure u will get more joy out of things...

jaitee
07-26-2007, 04:12 AM
i am sure i dont shoot my bow any faster at lvl 14....after getting rapid shot...

Ilontu
07-26-2007, 07:29 AM
WOW, you know alot..you sure ur a noob?

To DDO, very much. But to D&D or videogames in general? no.

Thanks for all of the responses everyone. I'll keep playing my ranger for as long as it is fun (and I'll try not to use auto-attack). From what I can tell, until ranged attacks get fixed I might have more fun with my rogue after a point though.

I hate having to leave unlocked doors/chests behind when I solo ;).

Thanks again.