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Muravi
07-23-2007, 08:34 PM
I had such high hopes for this game. Having previously beaten my head against the wall through 2+ years of SWG, I prayed this would be different. And honestly for the most part, it has. The game was fun, the response from the dev team was adequate, content was added, and our level cap grew. That being said, the overall plan for the game was poorly executed. Hence my extreme boredom now. I was a hardcore player. I have well over 2000 favor. I have much uber loot, I have played on risia, I have rolled and re-rolled toons, and I am a member of a fairly large and active guild. I have no interest in permadeath or PVP. Perhaps it's my explorer nature but since Mod4 and our rapid progression from lvl 12 to 14 ( a matter of hours ) I have steadily found myself losing interest, focus, etc. How many times from now until lvl 20 will those of us with capped toons be forced to sit through months and months of scant content? The lower end stuff is for new players and re-rollers. IMHO, new players have plenty of content to run through. Again IMHO, Dev focus should be expansion up to lvl 20. Once that goal is reached then by all means, add all the content you can muster for every lvl. I AM TIRED of rerolling characters. Some of you may not be and that's fine. I would like some honest feedback from anyone. Perhaps it's a mental scar from SWG but I now despise wasting a significant portion of my time on games that are clearly having serious issues.

P.S. This opinion was penned before the announcement for server merging. I will have to side with the doom camp on this one. I sense an NGE level event in the near future. SWG refugees will know what I mean.

Ironik
07-23-2007, 08:38 PM
I totally agree with people having and voicing their opinions.

In my opinion the DDO community can do without the negative gloom and doom that you bring about. The server merge is a good thing, you will see.

HumanRogue
07-23-2007, 09:18 PM
Remember that the next mod (which is advertised to come out next month) claims to have 11 new high level dungeons, 1 new high level wilderness area, and 1 new raid. All high level stuff there...

Jolani
07-24-2007, 12:41 AM
To be fair, we don't know the level of content yet. Some will likely be lower level (10-12) and some high level (14-16). When the merge is complete and mod 5 comes out, there will be A LOT of lag and crashes. I predict 5-7 instances of Necropolis.

However, the merge is the best plan to save DDO that I've heard, and I don't want DDO to die.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-24-2007, 11:27 AM
Again, adding quests, be it 11 or 1100, isnt going to solve the OP's problem.

We NEED timesinks. We NEED something where people can log for 6 hours, not run a single quest and feel they acomplished something. Like crafting.

Think of other MMO's, they have content that has nothing to do with questing. And yes, some of you dont want gathering/crafting/travelling, but these are the things that keep a game alive. These are the things that people need. It creates a sense of realism. It bonds you with your character, it makes you feel that you are actually living in Eberron. Thats what people need/want. Give us housing, give us our own inns with PvP pits, give us THINGS that make us feel at home. Dont have me log in to be standing around the streets. Give us realism and I promise you the game will flourish.

We play these games to escape. At the moment the only escape is quests. Well, when you are done with those what else do you have?? Nothing. More quests. And what are you going to have when you add more quests? Nothing. More quests.

Turbine NEEDS TO NEEDS TO NEEDS TO implement some sort of timesink to the game that DOES NOT involve questing. Favor, raid loot, high-end loot, XP are all good, but they are all tied to the same thing, questing. Or you get tired of them. Crafting never ends. Gathering never ends.

You see what Im getting at?

I honestly, 100% believe if something like that was put into DDO it would be a thriving game. Best character gen, best combat engine, best spells, best weapons, best everything out there...AND its Dungeons & Dragons!!

For the sake of this most awesome games lifespan Turbine MUST implement some sort of timesink realism to the game. And no, I dont want a WoW or LOtR clone either...but I also dont want this game to die.


Edit; I also know all these things are in the pipeline, but IMO they need to be put in ASAP, even before another level raise.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-24-2007, 01:54 PM
We NEED timesinks. We NEED something where people can log for 6 hours, not run a single quest and feel they acomplished something. Like crafting.

Think of other MMO's, they have content that has nothing to do with questing. And yes, some of you dont want gathering/crafting/travelling, but these are the things that keep a game alive. These are the things that people need. It creates a sense of realism. It bonds you with your character, it makes you feel that you are actually living in Eberron. Thats what people need/want. Give us housing, give us our own inns with PvP pits, give us THINGS that make us feel at home. Dont have me log in to be standing around the streets. Give us realism and I promise you the game will flourish.
.

Timesinks are bad. Collections are bad. Travel is bad. We have enough of that garbage in the game now. The more this looks like other MMOs, the more likely players like me leave. I'm willing to bet at least some other players are here because we don't need to do that garbage.

KoboldKiller
07-24-2007, 02:03 PM
I think there should be time sinks available but not required to play and complete the game. I nice distraction now and then won't hurt anything. Having said that if this becomes a WoW clone I am out of here! I do not see the merger as a doom prophecy. It is meant to make the game more enjoyable for those on lower population servers and is more cost effective thus helping the game in general. There may be lower populations on other servers but Argo has been thriving and I have seen many new players. Until someone can come up with actual numbers I don't understand why all the gloom and doom. I guess some people are glass half empty or glass half full. I'm drink it and re-fill it. :D

Invalid_25
07-24-2007, 02:12 PM
Again, adding quests, be it 11 or 1100, isnt going to solve the OP's problem.

We NEED timesinks. We NEED something where people can log for 6 hours, not run a single quest and feel they acomplished something. Like crafting.

Think of other MMO's, they have content that has nothing to do with questing. And yes, some of you dont want gathering/crafting/travelling, but these are the things that keep a game alive. These are the things that people need. It creates a sense of realism. It bonds you with your character, it makes you feel that you are actually living in Eberron. Thats what people need/want. Give us housing, give us our own inns with PvP pits, give us THINGS that make us feel at home. Dont have me log in to be standing around the streets. Give us realism and I promise you the game will flourish.

We play these games to escape. At the moment the only escape is quests. Well, when you are done with those what else do you have?? Nothing. More quests. And what are you going to have when you add more quests? Nothing. More quests.

Turbine NEEDS TO NEEDS TO NEEDS TO implement some sort of timesink to the game that DOES NOT involve questing. Favor, raid loot, high-end loot, XP are all good, but they are all tied to the same thing, questing. Or you get tired of them. Crafting never ends. Gathering never ends.

You see what Im getting at?

I honestly, 100% believe if something like that was put into DDO it would be a thriving game. Best character gen, best combat engine, best spells, best weapons, best everything out there...AND its Dungeons & Dragons!!

For the sake of this most awesome games lifespan Turbine MUST implement some sort of timesink realism to the game. And no, I dont want a WoW or LOtR clone either...but I also dont want this game to die.


Edit; I also know all these things are in the pipeline, but IMO they need to be put in ASAP, even before another level raise.


You know whats funny (well maybe only to me) but me and the 18 friends I play with experience none of that in this game. Why? We play D&D online like its D&D.

I have 2 groups I play once a week with a one group we play every other week. Same day same time every week or ever other week. You know just like you would normally play D&D.

None of us even have a toon over lvl 10 we do every dungeon and its every ones first time through no hand holding no tour guiding.

For those of us that want those other things like time sinks we play games like Vanguard EQ2 and LOTR.

When you play DDO like D&D meaning once a week with your old D&D friends this game is more fun than a barrel of monkeys on crack.

apollojuly
07-24-2007, 02:15 PM
We NEED timesinks.... We NEED something where people can log for 6 hours, not run a single quest and feel they acomplished something. Like crafting.

...these are the things that keep a game alive. These are the things that people need. ... Thats what people need/want.

Turbine NEEDS TO NEEDS TO NEEDS TO implement some sort of timesink to the game that DOES NOT involve questing.


Turbine, please understand WE and NEED above really mean I and WANT.

I log on to play and have fun, not to sink time.

Cupcake
07-24-2007, 02:16 PM
;1258459']You know whats funny (well maybe only to me) but me and the 18 friends I play with experience none of that in this game. Why? We play D&D online like its D&D.

I have 2 groups I play once a week with a one group we play every other week. Same day same time every week or ever other week. You know just like you would normally play D&D.

None of us even have a toon over lvl 10 we do every dungeon and its every ones first time through no hand holding no tour guiding.

For those of us that want those other things like time sinks we play games like Vanguard EQ2 and LOTR.

When you play DDO like D&D meaning once a week with your old D&D friends this game is more fun than a barrel of monkeys on crack.


mmmm Haste....

Mirta
07-24-2007, 02:16 PM
Again, adding quests, be it 11 or 1100, isnt going to solve the OP's problem.

We NEED timesinks. We NEED something where people can log for 6 hours, not run a single quest and feel they acomplished something. Like crafting.

Think of other MMO's, they have content that has nothing to do with questing. And yes, some of you dont want gathering/crafting/travelling, but these are the things that keep a game alive. These are the things that people need. It creates a sense of realism. It bonds you with your character, it makes you feel that you are actually living in Eberron. Thats what people need/want. Give us housing, give us our own inns with PvP pits, give us THINGS that make us feel at home. Dont have me log in to be standing around the streets. Give us realism and I promise you the game will flourish.

We play these games to escape. At the moment the only escape is quests. Well, when you are done with those what else do you have?? Nothing. More quests. And what are you going to have when you add more quests? Nothing. More quests.

Turbine NEEDS TO NEEDS TO NEEDS TO implement some sort of timesink to the game that DOES NOT involve questing. Favor, raid loot, high-end loot, XP are all good, but they are all tied to the same thing, questing. Or you get tired of them. Crafting never ends. Gathering never ends.

You see what Im getting at?

I honestly, 100% believe if something like that was put into DDO it would be a thriving game. Best character gen, best combat engine, best spells, best weapons, best everything out there...AND its Dungeons & Dragons!!

For the sake of this most awesome games lifespan Turbine MUST implement some sort of timesink realism to the game. And no, I dont want a WoW or LOtR clone either...but I also dont want this game to die.


Edit; I also know all these things are in the pipeline, but IMO they need to be put in ASAP, even before another level raise.

Agree 100%


Timesinks are bad. Collections are bad. Travel is bad. We have enough of that garbage in the game now. The more this looks like other MMOs, the more likely players like me leave. I'm willing to bet at least some other players are here because we don't need to do that garbage.

No, timesinks and collections aren't bad. They give us an alternative. When I log in I don't usually even feel like questing. I just sit around and use the only timesink we currently have (the auction house) or wait for a raid or help some guildies with favor quests. We need something else than just looting looting looting favor favor favor all the time. What am I supposed to do now that I have the most uber loot and perfect favor, make another character? Oh, joy! Gotta love running another lowbie through boring repetitive quests just so he ends up capped with uber loot and total favor like the rest of my guys.

Standpoint
07-24-2007, 02:23 PM
;1258459']......... this game is more fun than a barrel of monkeys on crack.


Now that does sound like fun.

The the thread creator - I absolutely can't stand every one of the things that you said you wanted to see in the game. I hate travelling, collecting, and crafting. So personally I'm glad this game isn't about that. I am also a casual player who hasn't even got one capped charecter and I've been playing since launch, which likely is much different than the way you play.

Invalid_25
07-24-2007, 02:23 PM
Agree 100%



No, timesinks and collections aren't bad. They give us an alternative. When I log in I don't usually even feel like questing. I just sit around and use the only timesink we currently have (the auction house) or wait for a raid or help some guildies with favor quests. We need something else than just looting looting looting favor favor favor all the time. What am I supposed to do now that I have the most uber loot and perfect favor, make another character? Oh, joy! Gotta love running another lowbie through boring repetitive quests just so he ends up capped with uber loot and total favor like the rest of my guys.

Maybe try a game like Vanguard Saga of Time-sinks. You can have fun running for 30 min to get to your group. great time sink. Or you can have fun waiting in line to kill a mob. another great time sink. Or you could spend time waiting for a quest mob to spawn and fight 10 other people for it and start all over again if you don't get the kill another great time sink. Of you can spend 5 days grinding faction to get to start a quest while fighting for the mobs with other people who also need the faction to get the quest another great time sink.

Seriously if your looking for a game with time-sinks there's a TON of games that provide a ton of time-sinks. Hell log into LOTR and grind for titles.

Shecky
07-24-2007, 02:26 PM
I've been playing since Headstart, most nights. I run regularly with guildies/friends. I have yet to reroll a SINGLE character. Yet I enjoy the daylights out of this game.

Whence springs the gap? I honestly fail to see how anyone can be THAT bored with the game outside of a short attention span (no offense, I just can't find any other explanation). I wonder: of the people who are bored that there's nothing new, how many DVDs and MP3s are in their collections that they enjoy over and over again without ANYTHING new on each iteration of the movie/show/song? I strongly suspect that people have LET themselves be canalized into expecting something New and Shiny constantly in this particular genre of entertainment.

Perhaps it's the adrenalin-junkie syndrome. Maybe it's just numbness. I don't know. Someone please enlighten me, seriously.

Ziggy
07-24-2007, 02:29 PM
Perhaps it's the adrenalin-junkie syndrome. Maybe it's just numbness. I don't know. Someone please enlighten me, seriously.
/Takes spotlight.
/shines it on shecky.

There youve been enlightened.:eek: :p

Beherit_Baphomar
07-24-2007, 02:34 PM
Turbine, please understand WE and NEED above really mean I and WANT.

I log on to play and have fun, not to sink time.

No, I wouldnt craft either. I wouldnt gather, I wouldnt do any of those other MMO cookie cutter ****...but MMO's need them, regardless of your opinion, games need things to keep them going. I agree with you, I dont like timesinks either...but the game needs realism, something to emmerse people in, something to take them off to Eberron. Quests dont do that.

Also, if and when DDO implements crafting, it should be a side-project. Certainly it should NOT be something required.

People leave this game because they get bored, and no Shecky, I cant understand that either, Im not sure when I'll get bored, if ever and Ive never rerolled either. Granted Ive only two capped characters, Im sure others have all their spots filled with capped characters.

The game, whether we like it or not, needs timesinks for some people to stay and play. There are certain expectations from an MMO and it seems most dont understand why DDO wouldn't have them.

Again, I wont use crafting, Id hate to travel more than we already do and I certainly wouldnt be camping out waiting for a spawn...but these are very valid parts of any MMO.

Whats wrong with wanting to put MORE pieces into DDO?? I dont understand why you wouldnt want as much as possible implemented. The more there is to do the more people will subscribe, the more people subscribe the longer the game lasts.

Invalid_25
07-24-2007, 02:35 PM
I've been playing since Headstart, most nights. I run regularly with guildies/friends. I have yet to reroll a SINGLE character. Yet I enjoy the daylights out of this game.

Whence springs the gap? I honestly fail to see how anyone can be THAT bored with the game outside of a short attention span (no offense, I just can't find any other explanation). I wonder: of the people who are bored that there's nothing new, how many DVDs and MP3s are in their collections that they enjoy over and over again without ANYTHING new on each iteration of the movie/show/song? I strongly suspect that people have LET themselves be canalized into expecting something New and Shiny constantly in this particular genre of entertainment.

Perhaps it's the adrenalin-junkie syndrome. Maybe it's just numbness. I don't know. Someone please enlighten me, seriously.

They want a MMO not DDO that's the way I see it. I said from the beginning Turbines biggest mistake was putting this game in the MMO niche/genre. People see the MMO tag and they expect it to be like the last MMO they came from. Most people don't want different or change. They want pretty much the same game they just left with a new world.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-24-2007, 02:42 PM
;1258566']They want a MMO not DDO that's the way I see it. I said from the beginning Turbines biggest mistake was putting this game in the MMO niche/genre. People see the MMO tag and they expect it to be like the last MMO they came from. Most people don't want different or change. They want pretty much the same game they just left with a new world.

Right. And regardless of how WE feel this IS an MMO and it needs to cater and appeal to people who play MMO's to survive....its very simple.

Mirta
07-24-2007, 03:08 PM
;1258510']Maybe try a game like Vanguard Saga of Time-sinks. You can have fun running for 30 min to get to your group. great time sink. Or you can have fun waiting in line to kill a mob. another great time sink. Or you could spend time waiting for a quest mob to spawn and fight 10 other people for it and start all over again if you don't get the kill another great time sink. Of you can spend 5 days grinding faction to get to start a quest while fighting for the mobs with other people who also need the faction to get the quest another great time sink.

Seriously if your looking for a game with time-sinks there's a TON of games that provide a ton of time-sinks. Hell log into LOTR and grind for titles.

So, by your definition: Logging in and wandering around DDO for 6-8 hours waiting for something interesting to happen is a time sink. We've got plenty of those and it's the reason for the merger. You want to talk about grind? HA! Last I checked 1750 favor and 14 levels is a nice little grind in itself. There's really not much else to do than grind.

The timesinks I would like to see are just alternatives (just like I said, please read first). Crafting is a wonderful timesink because it's not needed, so people who don't want to can just avoid it.

Opar
07-24-2007, 03:19 PM
By all means add crafting and whatnot to the game, the more the better. However, I have played since the game came out and while I have one character who is 14 with 1750 favor, I still haven't done all the quests and don't have uber loot and the game is still a blast to play.

This isn't a full world MMO that is a big time sync, but it is still a ton of fun to play. Just login when you *want* to get together with friends and run a dungeon or two. Try setting aside a night to get together with friends and run dungeons, we do it on Monday nights for instance - just like you would for D&D.

My advise would be get a subscription to DDO and a subscription to a more traditional MMO if that is what you are looking for. For me, I like it because it isn't like the others.

WestiesMA
07-24-2007, 03:23 PM
I would like to see guild halls where we can have a guild bank and "park" our toons, gather for raids etc. I really am not interested in crafting, and I DEFINITELY don't want traveling. I can't stand getting to the desert quests let alone traveling 30 minutes ot each dungeon. The way TR/GH did it is perfect - run it the first time, then after that you can teleport!

Opar
07-24-2007, 03:28 PM
One thing that hasn't been brought into this thread, but has been discussed many times that I think would do wonders. Randomization of things in the quests. Random trap placement, random chests, random mobs, etc.

Not that everything should just be completely random because then you break the quest designers vision of the quest, but some random elements in all new quests could go a long way towards making them more interesting to repeat.

BurnerD
07-24-2007, 03:32 PM
Any additions for "timesinks" should be considered add-ons, and not required to necessarily advance in this game. There is nothing wrong with adding this type of content and it would help keep some players happy. I agree that a certain percentage of the population will NEVER have enough content so while new high level content is definitely important, I believe that fleshing out the world is equally important. I think the dev time should be a 50/50 split of high level content and non-quest activities like crafting. Leave low level alone until level 20 is attained.

I also believe that the XP required for levels 14-20 should increase dramatically if the quests are going to yield XP like the GH quests. Personally I think 500,000+ XP should be required per level. I think alot of people became disenchanted with the fact that they were able to level to 14 in a few hours. I don't play all that much and was able to cap my main in less than a week.


Still love the game...

Deusxmachina
07-24-2007, 04:29 PM
Hence my extreme boredom now. I was a hardcore player. I have well over 2000 favor. I have much uber loot, I have played on risia, I have rolled and re-rolled toons, and I am a member of a fairly large and active guild.

Congratulations. You have beaten DDO.

I will say this: I don't play MMOs to solo things since it is the groups and people who help keep things interesting, and it's still usually easier to get a group together here than it is on the high-population WoW servers I've played on. Plus, real quests there are few and far between. A typical quest there is often only like one decent fight in DDO.

Still waiting for Turbine to do a package monthly deal on DDO and LoTRO. When people want big timesinks and to run around in a world, they can play LoTRO, when they want faster action, they can play DDO. Each game would help publicize the other, and with the games having different playstyles, they might wind up with a big piece of the market.

Kolvarg
07-24-2007, 04:40 PM
mmmm Haste....
Haste CupCakes? How yummmy. And you burn off all the calories really fast!!! ;)

Invalid_25
07-24-2007, 04:50 PM
Right. And regardless of how WE feel this IS an MMO and it needs to cater and appeal to people who play MMO's to survive....its very simple.

I have read this game can survive on 35k subscriptions. So no really they don't.

Invalid_25
07-24-2007, 05:04 PM
So, by your definition: Logging in and wandering around DDO for 6-8 hours waiting for something interesting to happen is a time sink. We've got plenty of those and it's the reason for the merger. You want to talk about grind? HA! Last I checked 1750 favor and 14 levels is a nice little grind in itself. There's really not much else to do than grind.

The timesinks I would like to see are just alternatives (just like I said, please read first). Crafting is a wonderful timesink because it's not needed, so people who don't want to can just avoid it.

This reply makes absolutely no sense to what I said. Or maybe it does and I'm just reading it wrong.

Yes grinding to 1750 faction is a time-sink but its the only time sink in DDO.

I'm curious do you want time sinks like Vanguard where you need to not only wait for a group to form but also wait for up to 45 min for your group mates to get there because they are on a entirely different continent? That is a time sink in the truest sense of the word. It forces you to be on for a longer amount of time doing nothing but waiting.

Should DDO add corpse runs so everyone wastes a ton of time getting back their bodies before trying to take on a dungeon again?

Crafting isn't a time-sink its something to do. Time sinks are things that are put into a game that make people stay on longer through unnecessary means.

You grind 1750 faction because all of your toons get a boost in stats. Grinding faction for 5 days just to start a quest that has even more grinding all so you get a mount that's 5% faster than the mount you currently have is a time sink.

Thrudh
07-24-2007, 05:21 PM
Congratulations. You have beaten DDO.


Exactly...

Take a break dude... You got your money's worth... Think about all the hours you've spent on this game... and all the fun you've had...

Now go take a break and play something else (or better yet, LEARN something new)... come back in a month or two...

I can't believe how many people are actually upset because a computer game is unable to keep them entertained for 6+ hours a day, EVERY DAY after a YEAR+ of playing.... Are you all insane? Every computer game has so many hours of playtime in it... Once you've done everything... you're done!!

Yes, MMOs are dynamic... new content gets added every so often... But NO team of developers can keep up with powergamers... It's impossible...

Sheesh... go play something else... go DO something else...

Raithe
07-24-2007, 05:29 PM
Clearly, some people's time sinks are other's content.
Some people's travel are other's exploration and immersion.

Personally I find it hilarious that someone would complain about the travel time to get to "Chains of Flames" but not complain about the travel time through "Chains of Flames." What the heck is the freakin difference?

I totally aggree with Beherit, DDO needs more immersion and realism (excellent post btw).

I started posting in April 2006 (forum join date), only a month and a half after I started playing because I could tell there wasn't enough immersion or realism. If there had been, I probably would have never bothered joining.

jeffdnd
07-24-2007, 05:49 PM
As a former SWG vet (and hopefully a new Emu player when they come out) I don't see a CUNGE coming. This isn't SOE, the evil empire that hates it's player base and caters to children. Quite the opposite the team and CSR's here seem to be helpful for the most part.

If you are so bored of the game why don't you try something else, talking to friends, taking a walk/drive, reading, even playing another MMO, anything. I mean seriously get a job/life/girlfriend or whatever it is that you're missing that leaves you with so much time that you can burn out on this game so easily. You know real life has a lot more content than a game, and it's more rewarding too.

But even if the devs did cater to your every desire (like the rest of us who apparently must not pay as much as you for this game), what would that accomplish. If you're complaining about being able to shoot from lvl12 to 14 in a few hours, what difference is it going to make to make the level cap ANY higher. You'll just hit it in a few hours and be right back here complaining again. What good has that done?

For a former SWG player I'm surprised you can ask so much of a game. Now granted if the devs all of a sudden deleted this game and inserted a clone of WOW I'd have your back all the way, but Turbine isn't the Evil Empire of SOE. They have tried to stay true, as much as they can in a MMO, to PnP. It's not always exact, but they couldn't possibly claim that if they took this game away and replaced it with something entirely and completely different.

Therefore your calls of a NGE-like Doom are extremely exxagerated and show little faith in Turbine. If you really feel Turbine could possibly even fathom doing what SOE did to us I think you may be far too paranoid. I believe SWG stands as an example to the entire world of MMO's as exactly how NOT to run a game.

Sorry about the heavy SWG-related tone, but that game has left a terrible scar on all of us ex-SWG players.

Raithe
07-24-2007, 06:08 PM
If you are so bored of the game why don't you try something else, talking to friends, taking a walk/drive, reading, even playing another MMO, anything.

Sounds like most of the stuff you can do in the game. I think some of us want to play a first person fantasy role-playing game that isn't about power leveling and loot grinding, and provides interest outside of those things that we can already do without paying DDO a dime.

I've been asking for that since April of 2006.

Tavok
07-24-2007, 06:18 PM
I totally agree with people having and voicing their opinions.

In my opinion the DDO community can do without the negative gloom and doom that you bring about. The server merge is a good thing, you will see.

Obviously not all opinions then, so your first sentence is moot.

Tavok
07-24-2007, 06:21 PM
;1259154']I have read this game can survive on 35k subscriptions. So no really they don't.

Aren't we at like 25k subs?

Invalid_25
07-24-2007, 07:53 PM
Aren't we at like 25k subs?

Well if thats the case I dont think they need to start turning the game into a WoW vanguard EQ clone to get another 10k subs.

Offer a DDO LOTR subscription for 22.95 a month for both games. That would probably get the sub numbers back to 35K if not more.

This game is over a year old now and with the way most people play the game its no surprise to me they are bored out of their minds. When I first stated this game in Beta I tried to play it like a normal MMO meaning 3 to 6 hours a night in PUGs. Yes that got boring fast as most people only wanted to do the same dungeon (that rewarded the best EXP and the best Loot) over and over and over again. Then I said to myself self this is D&D and its obvious that the design team is trying to create a persistent world based on a D&D campaign setting. How would me and my D&D friends go about playing such a thing? Would we play every day for 3 to 6 hours a day or would we get together once a week and adventure? Once I did that the game became a ton more fun and the boredom quickly went away.

Now I know a lot of people will say I wont pay 15 a month for a game I only play once a week. That's cool then don't All of my friends would pay more than that for the awesome service Turbine has provided for us. We get to play D&D again as a group of friends who could no longer do what we did in high school and college because life has changed for each of us.

Muravi
07-24-2007, 09:39 PM
And then some not so much. But I will try to address a few things that I was perhaps not quite clear on in my origional post.

Congratulations. You have beaten DDO.

Exactly...

Take a break dude... You got your money's worth... Think about all the hours you've spent on this game... and all the fun you've had...

Now go take a break and play something else (or better yet, LEARN something new)... come back in a month or two...

I can't believe how many people are actually upset because a computer game is unable to keep them entertained for 6+ hours a day, EVERY DAY after a YEAR+ of playing.... Are you all insane? Every computer game has so many hours of playtime in it... Once you've done everything... you're done!!

Sheesh... go play something else... go DO something else...


I am currently taking a break. I have been on said break since not long after Mod4. As far as aspersions (sp) towards a lack of a fullfilling social and intellectual life, well unless you get to know me in RL all I can really say is *&%# off without it sounding like bragging.

In regards to "Beating" the game. This goes hand in hand with what a few of you have mentioned. Is it so terrible to want the ability to explore Ebberon for the sake of exploration? I do enjoy this world and the subject matter but DDO seems less of a persistant, emmersive world than a large grouping of persistant, static quests with an AH thrown in.

Now I will state (and I'm sure I will catch hell for this) that I don't give a pair of dingos kidneys about PnP. My D&D experience is entirely through video games such as BG and NWN, and forgotten realms books. My monthly subscription goes towards a video game, not pizza and dice. I'm sure some of you enjoy the hell out of that, ity's just not for me.

And yes, perhaps my pronouncement of DOOM regarding the server merge may be a bit premature but again, the severed limb still hurts at times.

Drider
07-24-2007, 09:56 PM
Timesinks are bad. Collections are bad. Travel is bad. We have enough of that garbage in the game now. The more this looks like other MMOs, the more likely players like me leave. I'm willing to bet at least some other players are here because we don't need to do that garbage.

QFT

I like this game cuz of the lack of timesinks.

Aesop
07-24-2007, 10:12 PM
I agree optional time sinks would be a good thing for some people ... but one that I hate is the HArvest/Gather/Mining that is associated with standard issue MMO Crafting. I pray to what ever entity that governs such things that Turbine does not go that route with Crafting in DDO. I have made multiple threads and posts that give some (imo) pretty darn good ideas for crafting implementation and other than for certain uber level effects none of them involve gathering of any kind and the ones that do only involve a Schematic like item to create said uber item.

I think the addition of Housing, Guild Housing, Guild vs Guild batttles. PvP Zones, War Zones, Faction (not Favor but more like choosing a side), Guild Favor, Guild Alliances, etc could make things fun over all. I myself have never been a big guild/pvp/housing person but I know some people would have a ball with it. You could have rewards for War Zones and Faction that don't involve XP. Titles could be earned. All sorts of things

Aesop

jaitee
07-24-2007, 11:10 PM
I agree optional time sinks would be a good thing for some people ... but one that I hate is the HArvest/Gather/Mining that is associated with standard issue MMO Crafting. I pray to what ever entity that governs such things that Turbine does not go that route with Crafting in DDO. I have made multiple threads and posts that give some (imo) pretty darn good ideas for crafting implementation and other than for certain uber level effects none of them involve gathering of any kind and the ones that do only involve a Schematic like item to create said uber item.

I think the addition of Housing, Guild Housing, Guild vs Guild batttles. PvP Zones, War Zones, Faction (not Favor but more like choosing a side), Guild Favor, Guild Alliances, etc could make things fun over all. I myself have never been a big guild/pvp/housing person but I know some people would have a ball with it. You could have rewards for War Zones and Faction that don't involve XP. Titles could be earned. All sorts of things

Aesop

last paragraph, in guildwars its just like that guild housing, guild vs guild, PVP zones, war zones, Faction(not favor), guild favor, guild alliances,
-ive only been playing on and off a few days but, it makes a guild worth being in, something to do in a guild, they also have a slogan as a cape for their guild, guild wars, with alliances, battles that takes place almost everday between guilds for cash/fraction/ranks/names
-not saying copy them, but still when i 1st realize what a guild could really do in their, i kinda thought whats a DDO guild got to do, chat in guild chat? recruit a few friends for close connection? and thats all i could think of

sirgog
07-24-2007, 11:35 PM
I agree optional time sinks would be a good thing for some people ... but one that I hate is the HArvest/Gather/Mining that is associated with standard issue MMO Crafting.

Aesop



Why not have quest-related items (such as Relics) be used as the basis for crafting? IMO that makes it much less of a grind if you are running quests and can run a variety of different ones.

geoffhanna
07-25-2007, 12:19 AM
Why not have quest-related items (such as Relics) be used as the basis for crafting? IMO that makes it much less of a grind if you are running quests and can run a variety of different ones.

Or gems.

Or MW items.

Or plat, time and XP as in the PnP rules. Especially the XP part. You want to make something, give up some of your level. Want to make something really cool? Give up multiple levels.

Nymie_the_Pooh
07-25-2007, 12:35 AM
Seriously, DDO is pretty much a multi-player platformer. I will continue to play until they either shut the doors, or someone releases a Prince of Persia MMO. DDO is still technically an MMO. The thing is that at some point MMOs are going to branch out the same way their predecessor the MUD did. DDO is just a branch of the MMO family. Personally, I feel that the mistakes made were tying the D&D franchise to the game, not enough content at release (especially soloable content), and lackluster advertising.

There are many games that follow the D&D ruleset faithfully. Players looking for the D&D experience are more likely to spend their time and money on one of those. DDO is a great game, but it is not the table top experience and there were some people looking for that when they came into the game. This game could have easily been a custom setting with a few changes and I feel it would have been better received by some.

The content is improving, but many people who left over that are not incredibly likely to take another look. Especially when the marketing isn't there. Repackaging the game is a great option. I gripe about paying for paid expansions, but I would still fork up the money and it is a chance to get the game out in the public view again. Seriously, a paid expansion would get a lot more attention than a free expansion typically gets as long as it isn't overdone. Then they can do a repackage of the game with the expansion as well later on to get even more players.

Oran_Lathor
07-25-2007, 05:02 AM
While I haven't reached the point yet where I am completely bored with our current high level content, I think I have to agree with the OP. New players to the game have plenty of content on the way up, and it is ALL new to them. Those who re-roll generally tend to bypass most of the low level content anyway, and simply do the quests with the best xp/time ratio. Adding something like Searing heights - while it seemed like a cool place, and I enjoyed the quest - is catering to a VERY small few, while almost EVERYONE lingers at level 14 waiting for something new. I understand that things take time to produce, and for all we know Searing Heights could have been 90% finished a year ago which would make it the sensible thing to add. Still, in my opinion, the developers should drop (for now at least) all their low-to-mid-level content development and focus entirely on new high level material.

Another thing that contributes to the stagnation occuring at high levels is the 'module x.y" system they seem to have begun using exclusively.

Let's take 4.2 as an example: It added a new wilderness area, a new quest, various bug fixes, and some new character options, etc. My suggestion? It doesn't have to be done ALL at once every 2-3 months. Instead, of waiting for everything to be done, they could have taken the servers down for a couple of hours a few weeks earlier and given us JUST THE QUEST. Same thing for Litany. Why make us wait until you've polished (hopefully) every last bit of the quests/metamagic/whatever else? Why not take the servers down tomorrow, add a quest or two that are already finished. THen in two weeks time when you've got another 2 quests finished, you give us those, and so on.

As it is now, we get nothing nothing nothing nothing BAM!!! Bunch of stuff. The problem with that is, with a massive influx of content at one time, people feel the need to rush to get it all done, then concentrate entirely on the few quests they felt gave the best loot/time ratio. If you added a quest here, a quest there, on an ongoing basis, people would actually play ALL of the content to a much greater degree.

Another example: How many times has the average player run the Rakshasa Lair as opposed to Prison of the Planes? They've likely run the lair a couple of times here and their, for favor, or to help a guildie, or because it was the only pug they could find. Meanwhile they sack PoP regularly, or at least play it often, because that's what the pugs run. You see my point? If they'd released, the side quests a few weeks, or even a month earlier - people would have played them more! How many people are 'bored' of Foundation of Discord (Aurumn Lair)? Not too many, I bet.

I didn't intend for this post to be so long, and it's all entirely off the top of my head, but I do hope it gets read. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

Ringlord
07-25-2007, 07:48 AM
To the OP in case someone has not already pointed it out, Turbine has already said crafting will be coming to the game late this year or early next year with the statement that it would be different from other games and that they felt we would like it. Guild housing has also been slated to be added late this year or early next year. A simple search would have produced the threads containing this info so you would not have had to make this one

blakbyrd
07-25-2007, 08:44 AM
Timesinks are bad. Collections are bad. Travel is bad. We have enough of that garbage in the game now. The more this looks like other MMOs, the more likely players like me leave. I'm willing to bet at least some other players are here because we don't need to do that garbage.

The only part I dont disagree wit you on here is that making DDO into what every other MMO is caould be a bad thing. However, DDO is already outside of that mold in it's main feature (combat system and character creation for the most part). It pretty much has this understanding in it's community and writeups, it's simple a bit different.

Why I disagree with the rest of it is simple. Adding other time sinks to the game, like crafting, is it adds more options to the game. More options gives more people something else to do, and more potenital players something specific they may like. As long as it is something implemented that isnt required to do, I see it as a good thing. It comes down to being the difference between attracting fighting style players, crafting style players or both. How could it hurt to try to attract as many as possible rather than ignoring part of the potential player base.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-25-2007, 10:46 AM
You all seem to be stuck on my examples.

They are just examples. Forget about crafting, travelling, gathering, mining, hunting. They are examples Im using to get my point across.

One person in this thread got what I said. Thank you.

Im not advocating crafting, Im not advocating timesinks, per se. Im trying to get the point across that we need emersion(sp). We need realism, we need to feel like we are living in Eberron. Think Sims. Think jobs, houses, hell think families, land, stores, inns, back storys etc.

What we have now is questing. For loot. For favor. For XP. For raiding. For loot. For XP. For partying. For gold. For (insert everything we do in this game).

We need something else. I used crafting, travelling, hunting, mining as examples ONLY. Forget about whether you like crafting, hunting, travelling, mining. Think what you would like to see in this game BESIDES questing.

Adding more quests and more levels helps us out for about a week, crafting would and could be done for hell ten years if you want.

If you dont like these examples then give us some of your own.

Think if this as a challenge. I want to see what YOU want in this game other than questing.

joker965
07-25-2007, 11:34 AM
The problem with timesinks is this:

If a person can play the game 10 hours a day 7days/week and this will eventually make thier character significantly more powerful than the avarage player then it is bad. BAD.

Right now this isn't really true. A character could have all raid loot and still will only be slightly more powerful than the "well equiped" character.

Beherit_Baphomar
07-25-2007, 11:54 AM
The problem with timesinks is this:

If a person can play the game 10 hours a day 7days/week and this will eventually make thier character significantly more powerful than the avarage player then it is bad. BAD.

Right now this isn't really true. A character could have all raid loot and still will only be slightly more powerful than the "well equiped" character.

Huh? How so?

Kraki
07-25-2007, 12:15 PM
Instead, of waiting for everything to be done, they could have taken the servers down for a couple of hours a few weeks earlier and given us JUST THE QUEST. Same thing for Litany. Why make us wait until you've polished (hopefully) every last bit of the quests/metamagic/whatever else? Why not take the servers down tomorrow, add a quest or two that are already finished. THen in two weeks time when you've got another 2 quests finished, you give us those, and so on.

For those that were not here at launch, it looked like we were going to be getting 2-3 month gaps between large updates with around 20-25 dungeons but there was a major shift to the current release structure of Module, Update, Update, Module.

A big part of the problem with going in smaller increments is that the QA requirements for a small update are just as onerous as those for a full Module update and would require the same amount of time to be in that pipeline. You don't just plug in a chunk of code, be it a dungeon, set of NPCs etc without testing to ensure the stability of the rest of the platform. There are always, always hooks and unintended dependencies that somehow will pop up as problems in such complex collections.

The behind the scenes cycles of Concept->Design->Development->QA where at any point something can be sent back a stage or two for retooling are the iceberg below the water line. As users, we only see the itty bitty piece of time where the implementation is floated on the forum and brought to semi-live on Risia before implementation.

/glances up at his ramble and wanders off

Kraki

Invalid_25
07-25-2007, 12:51 PM
You all seem to be stuck on my examples.

They are just examples. Forget about crafting, travelling, gathering, mining, hunting. They are examples Im using to get my point across.

One person in this thread got what I said. Thank you.

Im not advocating crafting, Im not advocating timesinks, per se. Im trying to get the point across that we need emersion(sp). We need realism, we need to feel like we are living in Eberron. Think Sims. Think jobs, houses, hell think families, land, stores, inns, back storys etc.

What we have now is questing. For loot. For favor. For XP. For raiding. For loot. For XP. For partying. For gold. For (insert everything we do in this game).

We need something else. I used crafting, travelling, hunting, mining as examples ONLY. Forget about whether you like crafting, hunting, travelling, mining. Think what you would like to see in this game BESIDES questing.

Adding more quests and more levels helps us out for about a week, crafting would and could be done for hell ten years if you want.

If you dont like these examples then give us some of your own.

Think if this as a challenge. I want to see what YOU want in this game other than questing.

Well according to the Devs although this game cant follow the PnP rules to a Tee their main focus when creating this game was the "Spirit" of playing a table top game of D&D with your friends.

That usually included going on a quest or an adventure. Very very rarely did D&D ever get into any of that stuff you are talking about. None of our table top adventures turned into love stories where someone started a family maybe the romance started and was role played a little but if the character decided they wanted to get married that character was retired.

D&D has always been about the quest about the adventure. Most DM don't do travel time they make a couple rolls of the dice to see if there's a random encounter on the way if not its "You arrive at your destination".

Sure my half orc cleric of Helm had a job. It was his job to make sure the Temple and the chambers were all taken care of and clean. Never did we role play any of that it was just a part of the back story. Would you want to come to our table top session and sit around watching me and the DM role play me doing my job?

I guess my point is I like DDO the way it is its a way for me and my old PnP buddies to all get together and play D&D again a game we love and have loved since the late 70s.

Vi'Aed
07-25-2007, 01:05 PM
;1258459']You know whats funny (well maybe only to me) but me and the 18 friends I play with experience none of that in this game. Why? We play D&D online like its D&D.

I have 2 groups I play once a week with a one group we play every other week. Same day same time every week or ever other week. You know just like you would normally play D&D.

None of us even have a toon over lvl 10 we do every dungeon and its every ones first time through no hand holding no tour guiding.

For those of us that want those other things like time sinks we play games like Vanguard EQ2 and LOTR.

When you play DDO like D&D meaning once a week with your old D&D friends this game is more fun than a barrel of monkeys on crack.

Dude. That is just great. :D I have often thought that would be a fabulous way to approach the game and I think that it may have been designed with that much more in mind than any other MMO would ever consider.

joker965
07-25-2007, 01:05 PM
Huh? How so?

Example: My main is a 14 (28 pt) capped cleric. He has no raid loot and has never used a +2 tome. You would never think that he was somehow gimped if you were playing with me in endgame content though. It is good and correct that this is possible.

I hate the fact that in other games there is a huge imbalance in power level based on someone being able to play the game 80 hours a week vs. 15. It drives many of the adults with jobs and families away from these games.

P.S. I understand that some people might be married and have jobs but their unique situation allows them to play a tone. Almost nothing is 100%.

llevenbaxx
07-25-2007, 02:39 PM
No, I wouldnt craft either. I wouldnt gather, I wouldnt do any of those other MMO cookie cutter ****...but MMO's need them, regardless of your opinion, games need things to keep them going. I agree with you, I dont like timesinks either...but the game needs realism, something to emmerse people in, something to take them off to Eberron. Quests dont do that.

Also, if and when DDO implements crafting, it should be a side-project. Certainly it should NOT be something required.

People leave this game because they get bored, and no Shecky, I cant understand that either, Im not sure when I'll get bored, if ever and Ive never rerolled either. Granted Ive only two capped characters, Im sure others have all their spots filled with capped characters.

The game, whether we like it or not, needs timesinks for some people to stay and play. There are certain expectations from an MMO and it seems most dont understand why DDO wouldn't have them.

Again, I wont use crafting, Id hate to travel more than we already do and I certainly wouldnt be camping out waiting for a spawn...but these are very valid parts of any MMO.

Whats wrong with wanting to put MORE pieces into DDO?? I dont understand why you wouldnt want as much as possible implemented. The more there is to do the more people will subscribe, the more people subscribe the longer the game lasts.

I agree with this completely. I also would not likily take part in any of these things but still recognize what they bring to the table. Stormreach is completely lacking a life of its own, the hustle/bustle or w/e you want to call it. I dont miss the grind stuff but absolutely do miss the people who do enjoy these things, they are who bring a sense of life to a city/enviernment, the very sense that is totally void in Stormreach.

I think the key to bringing all these things in would be to have the benefits/payoffs be nice enough where people will take part but not so earth shattering as people who arent interested dont feel at a disadvantage while out questing. Maybe tie it into housing or travel map instances, basically things that strictly quest players wouldnt be all that interested in anyway.

rpasell
07-25-2007, 03:08 PM
We NEED timesinks. We NEED something where people can log for 6 hours, not run a single quest and feel they acomplished something. Like crafting.

Think of other MMO's, they have content that has nothing to do with questing. And yes, some of you dont want gathering/crafting/travelling, but these are the things that keep a game alive. These are the things that people need. It creates a sense of realism. It bonds you with your character, it makes you feel that you are actually living in Eberron. Thats what people need/want. Give us housing, give us our own inns with PvP pits, give us THINGS that make us feel at home. Dont have me log in to be standing around the streets. Give us realism and I promise you the game will flourish.

We play these games to escape. At the moment the only escape is quests. Well, when you are done with those what else do you have?? Nothing. More quests. And what are you going to have when you add more quests? Nothing. More quests.

Turbine NEEDS TO NEEDS TO NEEDS TO implement some sort of timesink to the game that DOES NOT involve questing. Favor, raid loot, high-end loot, XP are all good, but they are all tied to the same thing, questing. Or you get tired of them. Crafting never ends. Gathering never ends.

You see what Im getting at?



...it's called Real Life. I play DDO to get away from the grind. The reason this game attracted me was because you don't have to do any of that tedious garbage other games require you to do. Log on, form group, adventure.

MrRotten
07-25-2007, 03:35 PM
You know what I see in this thread? Well the OP's suggestions were mostly geared to what he/she wants to see this game become.

Then basically every other post after that is either agreeing, or hating those suggestions.

Heres what I think:

I like my MMOs full of OPTIONs!!!

I personally love DDO.. There is no MMO out right now that has the indepth toon creation, and specializations then DDO. There is not many MMOs where race plays a strategical option in making your toon. Then having tons of feats, skills, etc. etc. to customize your toon. The graphics are excelent, one of the best VS other MMOs. The combat system beats most MMOs! So this MMO IMHO is one of the better ones out to date. BUT it dose have a problem...

OPTIONs!! You quest, you level, you cap out, you loot run loot run loot run. And induldge your AH addiction! Thats it... There is a major lack of options/content to keep us busy.

Dragonmarks intially I thought were going to be stupid.. But you know what, I wasn't forced to taking them. I wasn't told that I need to drop my feats and I must take them. You're gimped without them... none of that! Its merely an option in the game. Maybe if and or when the cap gets raised, i'll take it.

My point is : OPTIONs!!

The OP's suggestions I thought were great... Do I prefer to do those things? Well Crafting would be a nice thing, but making the traveling like WoW or LOTRO.. HECKs no!! I like the compactness of Stormreach, and all the attatched places, and Sorc teleporting being a pivital thing that really matters.

But again, its OPTIONs!!!

I say implament some sort of Crafting system... Implament another world, but make it so that you don't have to ride a horse for 30 minutes to get there. Its so easy, most of us played PnP, you can easily do what you've done so far. Talk to someone in town, and teleport us to the new location. Whatever it is... Implament those things, but:

DO NOT FORCE THEM: meaning don't make it a required part of the game.

OPTIONs people!

This way those that like to craft can craft.. Those that don't, don't have to, don't feel forced to do it, and can be just as powerful as someone that does craft. Don't overwhelm us with a billion differant professions.. Keep it simple, simple enough to appease the masses that like crafting, but not so darn demanding that its a chore or a really icky job that you wish you were fired from.

This way one way or another we are all happy, and have plenty of OPTIONs to play the game the way we want, and to grow in the game the way we want.

OPTIONs! Having a choice to do one thing VS another honestly I think is what people really want. Currently as it sets the content in DDO limits us drastically to have differant things to do in the game. So we are forced to loot run, loot run, loot run. Raiding is nice, although I think the VON series needs a overhaul. Add a few more raids like Tempest, single entrance just raid. Add some titles or a reputation system based upon quests completed, and faction completed or something.

I don't think it would take much, small tweeks, and a big Crafting system, and new race/classes or something to give us many many more options will keep us busy, instead of capping out, and having to reroll/replay and recapp out again.

OPTIONs!

I honestly don't think anyone would have problems with a Crafting system and other things the OP suggested even tho some of the masses hated these ideas. I don't think even those people would have issues with em as long as they are just OPTIONs that each person can make based on playing styles and what they prefer, and these OPTIONs aren't forced upon us!

Raithe
07-25-2007, 04:58 PM
;1261362']That usually included going on a quest or an adventure. Very very rarely did D&D ever get into any of that stuff you are talking about...


;1261362']D&D has always been about the quest about the adventure. Most DM don't do travel time they make a couple rolls of the dice to see if there's a random encounter on the way if not its "You arrive at your destination".


Things are glossed over in a PnP campaign because the DM hasn't taken the time to develop every possible scenario fully. DDO doesn't really have that problem because scenarios are limited by the game world. For a decent MMO, the design goal would be to make as many interesting and viable exploration and gameplay scenarios as can be fit within those confines. D&D is really about roleplay and scenarios, not quests. "The quest" is just what the DM calls all his prepared or purchased material, and he tries to steer characters through it so he doesn't have to do a lot of improvisation.

Furthermore, "quests" (scenarios) do not have to be sanctioned by Turbine to be valid, nor do they have to provide experience points. Highly romanticized scenarios of love, betrayal, heroism, sacrifice, etc., are the very essence of what is fun and interesting about roleplaying in a D&D campaign. Some people call those types of scenarios fantasy.

I'm sure you've heard that term before.

Invalid_25
07-25-2007, 05:16 PM
Things are glossed over in a PnP campaign because the DM hasn't taken the time to develop every possible scenario fully. DDO doesn't really have that problem because scenarios are limited by the game world. For a decent MMO, the design goal would be to make as many interesting and viable exploration and gameplay scenarios as can be fit within those confines. D&D is really about roleplay and scenarios, not quests. "The quest" is just what the DM calls all his prepared or purchased material, and he tries to steer characters through it so he doesn't have to do a lot of improvisation.

Furthermore, "quests" (scenarios) do not have to be sanctioned by Turbine to be valid, nor do they have to provide experience points. Highly romanticized scenarios of love, betrayal, heroism, sacrifice, etc., are the very essence of what is fun and interesting about roleplaying in a D&D campaign. Some people call those types of scenarios fantasy.

I'm sure you've heard that term before.

I agree to a certain extent but I think a reason why most DMs don't deal with that stuff (I think most DMs see it like i see it when I DM) Is its no fun for a group of friends to show up to game together and sit around and watch one guy and the DM play out his "fantasy" of getting gwen the serving wench at the tavern to fall in love with him. Yes things like that get brought up but where the fun in it for the other people to watch 2 people roleplay this scenario? Would you want to sit around and watch m and my DM roleplay an entire session about me being at work in the temple? I'm in no way saying there isn't groups of PnP players that do this I just don't think its the norm. I think when friends get together once a week or month to play D&D they want adventure.

Muravi
07-25-2007, 05:19 PM
You all seem to be stuck on my examples.

They are just examples. Forget about crafting, travelling, gathering, mining, hunting. They are examples Im using to get my point across.

One person in this thread got what I said. Thank you.

Im not advocating crafting, Im not advocating timesinks, per se. Im trying to get the point across that we need emersion(sp). We need realism, we need to feel like we are living in Eberron. Think Sims. Think jobs, houses, hell think families, land, stores, inns, back storys etc.

What we have now is questing. For loot. For favor. For XP. For raiding. For loot. For XP. For partying. For gold. For (insert everything we do in this game).

We need something else. I used crafting, travelling, hunting, mining as examples ONLY. Forget about whether you like crafting, hunting, travelling, mining. Think what you would like to see in this game BESIDES questing.

Adding more quests and more levels helps us out for about a week, crafting would and could be done for hell ten years if you want.

If you dont like these examples then give us some of your own.

Think if this as a challenge. I want to see what YOU want in this game other than questing.

EXACTLY. Thank you. options, options, options. Consider this scenario when complaining how time sinks and travel and deeper game emersion were not part of your PnP experience:

Many more people on-line and available for grouping. We see time sinks now as a past-time for when there is nothing going on and few pugs or guildies available. Oh, well, at least I can log on and (craft,explore,travel,etc..whatever) OH! wait a second! lots of people thought the same thing! cool, now maybe we could actually do a quest. Maybe a crafter needs a material only found in a certain area. i.e. reason for a party.

While that may be an idealized version of how things could go, I wouldn't think it beyond reason. Also, no one is forcing anyone to do a time sink (I hate that phrase). It is, as someone else here stressed, an option.

For those of you who enjoy this game once a week with your old PnP pals, more power to you. But please realize that many of us did not play PnP and /or do not have the built in party you log on with. Many of us are here to play an emmersive, persistant world that happens to be in Ebberon. I am not making demands or screaming,"I want, I want!" but I would like to see a change in Dev focus.

BTW, this has been a really great thread so far. Many good opinions on both sides of the arguement.

Raithe
07-25-2007, 05:43 PM
;1262250']I agree to a certain extent but I think a reason why most DMs don't deal with that stuff (I think most DMs see it like i see it when I DM) Is its no fun for a group of friends to show up to game together and sit around and watch one guy and the DM play out his "fantasy" of getting gwen the serving wench at the tavern to fall in love with him. Yes things like that get brought up but where the fun in it for the other people to watch 2 people roleplay this scenario? Would you want to sit around and watch m and my DM roleplay an entire session about me being at work in the temple? I'm in no way saying there isn't groups of PnP players that do this I just don't think its the norm. I think when friends get together once a week or month to play D&D they want adventure.

No, no one would want to sit around and observe two other people roleplay a day at work at the temple or flirting with the barmaid.

This is the whole point of an MMO that I've been trying to get across for what seems like eternity (a little over a year in real life).

While your friend Jack is roleplaying with Gwen the NPC/Computer DM (or better yet, Gwen the Player/DM) everyone else can be off roleplaying with Private Jake, Mistress Orphne, or each other. It doesn't have to be a 1 DM, 4-5 player scenario. It can be 500 DMs with 1050 players, or vice versa.

It's the chief benefit of Massively Multiplayer and DDO has squandered it. The game plays like a LAN FPS for 6 players.

Invalid_25
07-25-2007, 06:43 PM
No, no one would want to sit around and observe two other people roleplay a day at work at the temple or flirting with the barmaid.

This is the whole point of an MMO that I've been trying to get across for what seems like eternity (a little over a year in real life).

While your friend Jack is roleplaying with Gwen the NPC/Computer DM (or better yet, Gwen the Player/DM) everyone else can be off roleplaying with Private Jake, Mistress Orphne, or each other. It doesn't have to be a 1 DM, 4-5 player scenario. It can be 500 DMs with 1050 players, or vice versa.

It's the chief benefit of Massively Multiplayer and DDO has squandered it. The game plays like a LAN FPS for 6 players.

I think to an extent that's what the devs of this game hoped it would be they just threw it in a persistent world with a few common areas for people to meet up and be social. I really think Turbine thought people would actually sit in the taverns and tell stories and talk about D&D and old D&D PnP quests they ran and groups would form organically that way. They should add more things to do in taverns is my opinion if you ask me. Money comes pretty easy in this game maybe some money sink gambling. (Yes I know there is in the game) but make it more of a social thing where you would need 6 people to play the game a version of StormReach poker a variation on hold em or something.

I don't think the devs of this game were ever truly going for massively multiplayer from the very beginning of development they basically said don't expect your basic MMO elements to be found in this game this isn't that type of game.

I see the same argument going on In Vanguard all the time the people that want all the hardcore elements taken out of the game because they want to play a game that reminds them more of the game they came from and they don't give a rats ass what the devs original idea for the game was. There's now different games for different types of people. IF yo wanna run around and explore and kill mobs one at a time and grind out levels this game was never the game for you. If you wanna spend 30 to 40 min just getting to a dungeon to meet up with your friends this was never the game for you.

Invalid_25
07-25-2007, 07:43 PM
Lets not forget things like this from the development of this game



MMORPG.com: D&D has been around forever it seems. With the venture into the online world, is the focus on getting the table-top game people into the mmorpg arena, or adapting D&D to the mmorpg crowd?
Ken Troop: D&D Online is focused on creating a fun online RPG experience that you can play with your friends. We don’t compare ourselves to other MMPs – DDO takes you straight to your adventure (no endless running to get where you want to go), offers quest-based advancement (no sitting in the same place for hours grinding for XP), and creates a private adventure for you and your friends (no random interference or grief from strangers).

Our development touchstone has been to create an online experience that captures that essence of the classic tabletop adventure session. But it has to be a fun online experience. When a straight translation of the pen & paper rules would hamper our ability to provide a fun online experience, we work closely with Wizards of the Coast to come up with a modification that maintains the spirit of D&D while satisfying the demands of the online medium.

GB: How large will the game world be, as compared to other MMORPGs? Can you tell us about any types of transportation you are planning to implement (horses, boats, teleportation, etc)?

Turbine: We’re deliberately going for a smaller physical space. We feel that rather than have a huge world that feels empty, we’re better off taking our content, and putting it into tailored spaces that are packed with things to see and do. Time that you used to spend running across a featureless landscape can be better spent in We’d rather maximize the amount of “Hey, look at that!” versus the amount of “Hey, where the heck am I?” Exploration of densely packed areas tends to be a bit more rewarding – without density, the answer to “what’s over that hill?” is too often “another hill!”


GB: Tell us a bit about the "private dungeons" that designers will be able to build. How exactly will this design process work, and how will they be able to keep other adventurers from entering?

Turbine: In brief, Private Dungeons are exactly that – a dungeon that only you and your party are able to enter. The Private Dungeons are our way of trying to re-create the friends-at-the-table experience of D&D – it’s just you and your friends against the baddies. Many of our quests will direct players to particular private dungeons in order to complete them, though the option of a simple hack-and-slash romp with your friends is always available as well.

GB: To conclude, what do you feel are the most important features that you're working to incorporate into D&D Online?

Turbine: There are a lot of D&D players on this team. Several of us play a weekly game at the office. Often, you’ll hear us talking and laughing about this week’s exploits; the good luck and the bad, the funny moments and the tragic ones. More than anything else, if we can recreate that feeling; parties working together to overcome challenges, kick butt, and have a good time, we’ll be in good shape. It’s not any individual feature that does that – it’s a combination of good quests and stories, good dungeons, and great combat and characters that make it all come together.

Levit
07-25-2007, 07:49 PM
Exactly...

Take a break dude... You got your money's worth... Think about all the hours you've spent on this game... and all the fun you've had...

Now go take a break and play something else (or better yet, LEARN something new)... come back in a month or two...

I can't believe how many people are actually upset because a computer game is unable to keep them entertained for 6+ hours a day, EVERY DAY after a YEAR+ of playing.... Are you all insane? Every computer game has so many hours of playtime in it... Once you've done everything... you're done!!

Yes, MMOs are dynamic... new content gets added every so often... But NO team of developers can keep up with powergamers... It's impossible...

Sheesh... go play something else... go DO something else...

Let's face it leet guys. The game is over for you. No way content can satisfy your appetite. Step away, wait for the level raise, or even a couple of mod updates. You will have a fresh attitude.

Another thing, when you come back limit your playing time to different level toon. Play your newbies one day, mid levels another and caped guys on another.

I have a curse in RL. A horrible memory. It is a true blessing in this game. I don't remember a quest even if I run it like 10 times! Too many brain cells killed in college!

I love this game! I think that Turbine needs to spend more cash on marketing to get new players in. There is soooooo much content for a newbie to do. The problem is all the D and D guys have found this game and are either playing it or found it lacking and moved on. DDO needs to bring in non- D and D players to keep the game alive for the rest of us.

Let's hope this merger helps. I think we have a wonderful platform for the casual player to enjoy this game for years. Feel bad for you leets. Guess you will have to master something else.

Will miss ya! You can leave me your vorpals if you wish:)

Raithe
07-25-2007, 08:19 PM
;1262477']Lets not forget things like this from the development of this game

I'm aware of the mistaken ideas and concepts Ken Troop and the development team had going in to this venture. They limited their scope in a way that failed to meet the most rudimentary requirements of any first person shooter, let alone a full blown MMO, let alone a full blown MMO based on D&D (that being player interaction). I suspect they were way too overconfident in their programming prowess and thought they could pull off a computer DM.

I also suspect they know they were wrong now.

Hambo
07-25-2007, 09:11 PM
You know what I see in this thread? Well the OP's suggestions were mostly geared to what he/she wants to see this game become.
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I honestly don't think anyone would have problems with a Crafting system and other things the OP suggested even tho some of the masses hated these ideas. I don't think even those people would have issues with em as long as they are just OPTIONs that each person can make based on playing styles and what they prefer, and these OPTIONs aren't forced upon us!

/signed

Good post btw.

Vi'Aed
07-26-2007, 07:50 AM
I'm aware of the mistaken ideas and concepts Ken Troop and the development team had going in to this venture. They limited their scope in a way that failed to meet the most rudimentary requirements of any first person shooter, let alone a full blown MMO, let alone a full blown MMO based on D&D (that being player interaction). I suspect they were way too overconfident in their programming prowess and thought they could pull off a computer DM.

I also suspect they know they were wrong now.

EDIT: Sigh... must not rise to baiting "Fox News" tactics. Must not rise to baiting.... must not rise to baiting....

Allorious
07-26-2007, 08:57 AM
I'm sorry, I have to address something here because frankly I'm tired of seeing it. Please dont assume that because you can powerlevel and blow through content that someone is somehow missing out on another part of life. This comment is becoming more frequent when a poster wants to silence a power gamer. I have played this game well over a year now and I have completed every quest in the game on one toon or another. Its not my fault you cant, really I'm sorry. Let me tell you why...

I'm not a kid, I'm 40 years old. I have a wife and 3 younger children and I manage all of my life including this game the way I managed business. I retired at the age of 34, because I could and LIFE was no longer challenging. In a given day I swim, play games with my kids clean the house, cook dinner and spend time with my wife. We take trips, go to ball games and I take my kids to their respective spots games.

At night I play DDO for hours...why? Because I can. I require about 2 to 3 hours sleep a night. Other than that, I play. I'm sorry you cant, but I can.

I dont post that you are somehow inferior to me (other than this rant) because you cant, please dont assume my life is lacking or somehow inferior to yours.

This would be like my saying since you cant run all the content quickly then you're a poor player. Since you have to take time away from the game you are a poor time manager. Sleep less, play more. If you cant its because you are weak and inferior.

Now, that being said, I love this game. I have taken the time to travel and meet several of the people I play with in person and have dinner to get to know them better. Please, just enjoy the game. I'm bored with it and could use a little random action in the dungeons, but I play for the people.

I'm done, enough said.

MrRotten
07-26-2007, 03:02 PM
I'm sorry, I have to address something here because frankly I'm tired of seeing it. Please dont assume that because you can powerlevel and blow through content that someone is somehow missing out on another part of life. This comment is becoming more frequent when a poster wants to silence a power gamer. I have played this game well over a year now and I have completed every quest in the game on one toon or another. Its not my fault you cant, really I'm sorry. Let me tell you why...

I'm not a kid, I'm 40 years old. I have a wife and 3 younger children and I manage all of my life including this game the way I managed business. I retired at the age of 34, because I could and LIFE was no longer challenging. In a given day I swim, play games with my kids clean the house, cook dinner and spend time with my wife. We take trips, go to ball games and I take my kids to their respective spots games.

At night I play DDO for hours...why? Because I can. I require about 2 to 3 hours sleep a night. Other than that, I play. I'm sorry you cant, but I can.

I dont post that you are somehow inferior to me (other than this rant) because you cant, please dont assume my life is lacking or somehow inferior to yours.

This would be like my saying since you cant run all the content quickly then you're a poor player. Since you have to take time away from the game you are a poor time manager. Sleep less, play more. If you cant its because you are weak and inferior.

Now, that being said, I love this game. I have taken the time to travel and meet several of the people I play with in person and have dinner to get to know them better. Please, just enjoy the game. I'm bored with it and could use a little random action in the dungeons, but I play for the people.

I'm done, enough said.

/signed

I look at my play style as somewhat a power leveler/gamer, I can admit that. Although I do the favors and I do enjoy every bit of content this game does have to offer. I honestly love DDO, think its great.

I can admit to being somewhat of a power gamer as the previous poster mentioned and still can agree pretty much 100% what he said.

Although in another post I said that Turbine could introduce a few more content pieces to give power gamers or even casual gamers more options. Thats all i'm saying.. You have to keep in mind when you're developing an MMO that you want to appeal to the masses and also maybe even entice people to try things they would normally not try in your game.

I for one would warn turbine to not go overboard with any new implamentation of some additional content/options for if you do, then you bring in all the farmers and kiddies. One reason I really enjoy DDO is the maturity (Atleast on Sarlona) that this game seems to bring to the table. You don't find alot of ignorant little kids and immature mentality people in this game.

So any additional things that are added, keep it simple, don't take anything away from the core part of the game.. Don't change how quests are setup, don't change how you travel. And god, don't change the combat system. Just add something like a small crafting engine, maybe using those useless gems or even those collectables. Or shoot, even make it more rewarding to collect collectables. That would maybe even work. Just something that is basically never ending, something thats going to take alot of time to finish. So you can cap a toon in a week or a year, but wether your capped or not, you're still progessing in something.

So power levelers, power gamers, casual players or not... All i'm asking is stick more OPTIONs in the game to appease everyone. Don't force us to make decisions that we NEED to craft (IE: Some games do crafting, and to get some of the best items in game you have to craft. DUMB) i'm sure there someone out there thats getting payed to come up with ideas that could introduce something thats not going to change the game, but give us some new options and things to do that both power gamers and casual people can enjoy and get satisfaction out of.

LogannX
07-26-2007, 06:46 PM
Well you arent ever going to find yourself a game that will occupy you the way you desire. The worst thing thats come out of the mmorpg evolution is the hardcore gamers who live their games. Yes this is a criticism of powergamers. Your demands are unreasonable and unreachable. Im even a little shocked for you coming out of SWG where the game had almost no creative content whatsoever. DDO is jammed with it and more is added regularly. Yes its spread out over levels but thats the curse of a game that has levels. I used to think different playstyles didn't matter much but powergamers really are grief for any game and any non powergamer. They make the game a lot less fun when you find yourself in their groups, and jam the forums with laughable ranting and whining. In the end its great for a game to lose as many as possible.
Hey I get bored sometimes but its not the games fault it's mine for running PoP too many times in a day. I sit back shut off the comp and go for a run. Take a day off hang with the wife and bam its fun again.

Tallyn
07-26-2007, 07:00 PM
I cant believe someone even speaks SWG and DDO in the same breath. SWG BETRAYED their customers, seemingly intentionally. Changing the game mechanics SO radically without even consulting their player base, alienated so many players. I know MMO players who will not support any SOE endeavor from now on because of SWG. Also SWG seemingly betrayed some of their employees who left their employ.



DDO's team is way better than SWG's team, the only fault they may have is not having enough content out there for us, but it's improving all the time. Add in crafting and guild housing and I will continue to play DDO for a LONG time.

Muravi
07-26-2007, 09:33 PM
Well you arent ever going to find yourself a game that will occupy you the way you desire. The worst thing thats come out of the mmorpg evolution is the hardcore gamers who live their games. Yes this is a criticism of powergamers. Your demands are unreasonable and unreachable. Im even a little shocked for you coming out of SWG where the game had almost no creative content whatsoever. DDO is jammed with it and more is added regularly. Yes its spread out over levels but thats the curse of a game that has levels. I used to think different playstyles didn't matter much but powergamers really are grief for any game and any non powergamer. They make the game a lot less fun when you find yourself in their groups, and jam the forums with laughable ranting and whining. In the end its great for a game to lose as many as possible. Hey I get bored sometimes but its not the games fault it's mine for running PoP too many times in a day. I sit back shut off the comp and go for a run. Take a day off hang with the wife and bam its fun again.

OMG. The thread had been running relatively well before this little number. So let me get this straight...the problems in the mmorpg world stem from power-gamers? By which you mean those of us able, willing and skilled players who expect the games we pay for to be a product we can enjoy playing? That comment was ignorant and laughable. Power gamers are the butter for the MMO bread.

As far as the SWG remarks: The origional SWG (for all its faults) at least had 30+ proffessions which could be mixed and matched for truelly origional, unique, and effective characters. Want to craft? then c raft. Want to be a bounty hunter? go for it. Want to ,mix a bit of Bounty hunter with crafter with dancer? knock yourself out. Want to be a Jedi? forget it. And we were happy with that.

As far as MMOs being better off without power-gamers...let's just take a little stroll back to reality. Development teams and production companies would have no clue what to do with there products if they didn't have a large segment of there paying population pushing the envelope for creative solutions to there challenges and demanding a better more fullfilling emersive experience.

To the turbine Devs: I am not in any way throughout any of this thread making suggestions that you guys and the SOE dev team are in any way alike.

Spookydodger
07-26-2007, 11:31 PM
I would like to see crafting.

I wouldn't mind some travel.

I don't need time-sinks.

If the travel is a perilous wagon ride where you randomly get attacked (spawning a new dungeon in which the carts are set) then that's great.

I have capped characters. I have some good stuff. I haven't been playing since before December. However, I play to have fun, not to get the items or the levels. I tried 3 times, max, for a mummified bat before I said "to heck with this, I have better things to do."

Enjoy the journey, and the destination will be more rewarding.

DBELVIN
07-27-2007, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE=Lorien the First One;1258390]Timesinks are bad. Collections are bad. Travel is bad. We have enough of that garbage in the game now. The more this looks like other MMOs, the more likely players like me leave. I'm willing to bet at least some other players are here because we don't need to do that garbage.[/QUOTE

i disagree, but thats my opinion. doing nothing but questing gets boring after awhile]

MrRotten
07-27-2007, 02:02 PM
Well you arent ever going to find yourself a game that will occupy you the way you desire. The worst thing thats come out of the mmorpg evolution is the hardcore gamers who live their games. Yes this is a criticism of powergamers. Your demands are unreasonable and unreachable.
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I used to think different playstyles didn't matter much but powergamers really are grief for any game and any non powergamer. They make the game a lot less fun when you find yourself in their groups, and jam the forums with laughable ranting and whining. In the end its great for a game to lose as many as possible.

First things first... You say that its unreasonable and unreachable to just add a few extra tid bits of content and options to the game IE: Crafting? Well I think its retarted that you don't want to get more out of a game that you pay a monthly subscription for. With the technology today, and all the other MMOs out there that are running tons of content, all i'm merely asking, and the OP is asking, is to introduce something and keep it simple. A crafting system that doesn't over take the game, or even take a feature thats already in game like the COLLECTABLEs and make it somehow more rewarding to do it.. It certainly isn't unreasonable that i'd like to see Turbine introduce something more to the game that i'm paying a monthly fee over. I love DDO, and just want to continue to see them improve on the decent product that they've got here. Unreasonable and unreachable?? Now that is laughable.. Makes ya wonder.........

And about your little rant about power gamers.. First of all... Usually you won't see to many constantly active, "Power Gamming" people ranting on the forums a whole lot. WHY? Because they are power gamming.. It never stops.. LOL Those are the people that are enjoying the game enough usually to stay in game, and not waste time on the forums. And heres another thing... No one is forcing you to group up with a power gammer.. Thats your choice and yours alone to make. Get a casual guild or something and group with them. Fact is, those power gammers know the content, and keep your butts alive. And I haven't met a single power gammer that isn't willing to shut up and take it slow if asked to do so.


[QUOTE=Lorien the First One;1258390]Timesinks are bad. Collections are bad. Travel is bad. We have enough of that garbage in the game now. The more this looks like other MMOs, the more likely players like me leave. I'm willing to bet at least some other players are here because we don't need to do that garbage.

Whoever wrote that, seriously needs to evaluate wether they should be playing this game or not. OPTIONs and having additional content so people have tons of stuff to decide to do is not a bad thing. And this person here may seriously need to find maybe a free download/free to play MMO where there isn't that many flashy features. Maybe you'll get more enjoyment from those.. After all, a BIG MMO has to appease the masses, not just you. If you're not enjoying yourself in any game, stop paying and move to a diff one. *shrug*

Kitamus
07-30-2007, 05:42 AM
Maybe getting to build a guild hall, or settle a wilderness, would be fun, but in my opinion, crafting bites, it detracts from the game.

Thank goodness for separate instance adventures, when I tried Wow saw many of the same hassles listed above. With everybody running around every where, all the time, the whole world was boring; actually fishing, weaving and harvesting were more fun than the rest of the game; and that was the problem.

Saw it in vanguard and lotr too, so never wasted the money on those. otherwise if need a time sink the RP'ers have it right hang in a tavern and dance. Maybe they could open a casino, or horse track. Unfortunately other DnD diversions may tend to be to risqué for the games rating. Raising little adventurers, or drinking, carousing, and revelry, Oh my!

Allowing more characters so you can adventure from a different perspective, is a better solution. You get the sense of progress even if it is down the same old road.

KristovK
07-30-2007, 08:50 PM
There's a post here that quotes the development ideals for DDO, and if you'll look at that and then look at the game, they followed it. Turbine knows how to make an MMO in the traditional mold, they've done it before with AC and they've redone it with LoTR:O. DDO wasn't meant to be a traditional MMO from the ground up, and it shows.

Now, the biggest problem is we've got people who WANT the traditional MMO experience but they want it set in the D&D frame, and that isn't what DDO is. Raithe summed it up great, saying the devs clearly had no idea what they were doing and that they did it all wrong. Nevermind that they followed their vision and made the game they said they were going to make, it's wrong because it's not what Raithe wants.

We don't need time sinks added to DDO, we already have them, the very ones the devs stated would be the only time sinks in the game, quests.

Some of you say we need crafting, that it will give us something to do besides questing, and to a very limited extend, you are correct. Problem is, it would seem you don't understand how crafting in D&D works at all. Joe the Fighter can't go and make that vorpal or paralyzer or greater whatever bane weapon he wants. Jill the Rogue can't either, nor can Krushem the Barbarian. Crafting magical items in D&D is a very different thing then you are used to in other MMOs, you don't just walk up to a trainer and learn the basics then go off and gather materials and then work your way through the crafting tree. First off, you don't generally make the base items used to make magical items, you buy them or have someone else provide them to you for enchanting. Then you spend time(days at least), money and XP to enchant the item. In PnP this is very simple and quick and mostly painless, except for the XP loss, you simply get with the DM, tell him what you are doing, he makes sure you spend the proper money, makes a roll or two, then says 'ok, it's done' and it's done. Now, in DDO, how exactly would you like this to work? You go to create something that's going to require 10 days, does that mean you can't play the character for 10 days? 10 hours? 10 minutes? What time frame is used? Oh..and did I forget to mention that you can't just learn how to craft by talking to a trainer..no..I did mention that..but I wasn't clear on what that means. It requires FEATS to craft magical items in D&D, oh, and the ability to cast the magical spell/s required for the enchantments going into the items. Brew Potions, Craft Magical Arms and Armors, Craft Rods, Craft Staffs, Craft Wands, Craft Wonderous Items, Forge Rings, and Scribe Scroll...which is already ingame in an altered(mutilated) form. And like I said, you must be able to cast the spell/s required on top of having the feat required so it's only casters who'll be crafting magical items.

Now it's true there are things like weapon and armor forging, tailor, cook and so on in D&D but those are skills you put points into, not feats, and you can't make anything magical with those skills, just normal, masterwork and special material(mithral, adamantine), that's it. That's a time sink people will be willing to ignore, being able to make mundane items they can buy cheaply!

Myself, won't have any characters currently who'd take up crafting, having to give up feats to take the crafting feats...meh.

DDO could use more social aspects, there's little if any of that ingame now. Personally I'd love to see the music system they did for LoTR:O put into DDO, I loved that in the closed beta, it was a lot of fun and a great social interaction tool. Also made some coppers off it by playing tunes in areas where people gathered for various reason...even got a gold piece(HUGE money in LoTR:O) to STOP playing once...critics...shesh. Some sort of games of chance that require multiple players to get going, actual drinks that make you drunk(that was a blast in LoTR:O), more emotes, dances, things that let us actually socialize and give us a reason to do so.

As for immersion...sorry, everytime I read that in regards to an MMO I just crack up. HOW you can be immersed in a video game where you are constantly staring at the BACK of your avatar is beyond me. Immersion requires that I actually look at the world as my avatar sees it, limited field of view and all, be able to hear in 3 dimensions so I can tell if something is behind me, left or right or above or below me, moving towards or away. I play FPS games for the immersion factor, like Battlefield. I can hear bullets whizzing by me, tell where they came from, which direction they are going, even what sort of weapon fired the bullet. I can hear tanks coming over a hill before I can see them, a jet flying by, helo's off in the distance, all while only being able to see in the direction I'm actually looking, same as in the real world. THAT is immersion, THAT makes me feel like I'm inside the game world, I can close my eyes and just listen to the world and be aware of what's around me. I can't do that in DDO, sounds are good, but the accoustics aren't anywhere near good enough and there's not enough variation in the sounds to make it immersive. Not to mention that I'm constantly staring at my own ass, unless I pan the camera around...oh yeah...THAT'S immersive... Now, if Turbine would change it to a First Person View and do some work on the accoustics, I could get immersed in DDO, but until that happens..it's a video game that I'll never feel like I'm part of.

Neferi
07-31-2007, 07:52 AM
I'm very much against anything that requires tedium in order to gain an advantage. I don't see a way that crafting can be made fun or interesting in this game's context, and I don't want any part of it. The game already has problems when it comes to inventory management and the huge number of items everyone needs to keep around. I sincerely hope crafting and other WoW type time sinks aren't implemented. One of the biggest reasons I quit WoW and came to DDO was to get away from mindless grinding and farming.

I love DDO. I get to just log in and play. Unlike WoW, you don't need the best gear just to be able to get anything done. Unlike WoW you don't go on quests to farm for a billion bear butts to craft a special bear butt breastplate. Unlike WoW, you don't have to wait years to find a group and then even longer until everyone shows up at the quest site. The minute I see this game turning into a clone of WoW or any other unimaginative grind MMO out there, I'll be out the door. In my experience, this game rewards people who want to have fun, and that's why I'm here. If realism involves tedium, then realism should take a back seat. This is one of the few games that is actually FUN to play pretty much all the time, and I don't want it contaminated by other backward MMOs that are all about effort, time, and repetition.

JayDubya
07-31-2007, 08:28 AM
I love DDO. I get to just log in and play. Unlike WoW, you don't need the best gear just to be able to get anything done. Unlike WoW you don't go on quests to farm for a billion bear butts to craft a special bear butt breastplate. Unlike WoW, you don't have to wait years to find a group and then even longer until everyone shows up at the quest site. The minute I see this game turning into a clone of WoW or any other unimaginative grind MMO out there, I'll be out the door. In my experience, this game rewards people who want to have fun, and that's why I'm here. If realism involves tedium, then realism should take a back seat. This is one of the few games that is actually FUN to play pretty much all the time, and I don't want it contaminated by other backward MMOs that are all about effort, time, and repetition.

/signed

I've no interest in travel, only a passing interest in crafting. I'd rather get a few well-thought-out quests than a bunch of stupid busywork quests. DDO respects your time and desire for rapid gratification like no other game I've played.

nabrendel
07-31-2007, 10:01 AM
I personally can't wait to see crafting implemented.. the main reason is that currently there is nothing that drives the player economy at all other than ransacking PoP and other quests at various levels and selling the useless stuff to the vendor and auctioning the nice stuff... or just hording it for another character.. to that end being able to make cure moderate pot's, resist energy 30 pots, haste pots would be a great boon in addition to being able to make a particular item that you really want but just can't find due to the silly amount of combinations you can get in the loot generator. I am not saying it will be easy, they probably have been working on it since inception, but I am saying it is an important part of gameplay that again, you can choose to do it or not!, sure it excludes your barbarian or rogue, or fighter, but hey a wizard has to have customers :D

Braddock_Tharmwell
07-31-2007, 03:09 PM
Timesinks tend to be things done by yourself when the whole "dealing with other folks" is just not on your to do list.

DDO has lots of those now but most people don't see them as conventional timesinks.

Wandering the Desert collecting Coins could be seen as a time sink, except it is actually quite dangerous. So apparently timesinks can't be dangerous.

Ok then, how about killing 200 Kobolds, over and over. It certainly takes a fair chunk of time to do. Damn, it is dangerous as well. doh!

Why not go to Kobold Island then. Not so many, they aren't really all that dangerous but wait for it, the loot sucks. Well that is another issue all togethor. How can you want something to do that simply wastes time but still should be lucritive?

How can they make Crafting not boring as well as lucrative? Sounds like a challenge to me. If killing poor hapless Kobolds isn't fun and not lucrative enough, but one could certainly SINK alot of time into doing it if one chose to, how are they going to make Crafting any better than that?

I pay $15.00 like everyone else. I am also a big fan of OPTIONS. DDO currently has many many options. Apparently it doesn't have every option for everyone but I suspect it is not the only game that has that issue, just check the other games Forums, proof is plentiful there.

Only time will fix the woes of those with woes. Until then, build a character, give them a backround, a history, a purpose, a promise made, a mission, then sail into Stormreach Harbour and fullfill that promise, that mission, put that purpose into action.

If the above isn't your idea of an DnD based MMO and if all you really want to do is be able to Fish off the end of a wharf, well then write add post on here about how you can't Fish currently and see if the Dev's will add it.

P.S. Collectibles are also a great waste of time. Umm I mean Timesink. ;)

Raath
07-31-2007, 05:05 PM
DDO respects your time and desire for rapid gratification like no other game I've played.

I disagree, in fact think it quite opposite. Since there are only quests to do in DDO, you have to make the time to do them. I dont feel DDO respects your time in that aspect. You have to commit to it.

In some games that have "timesinks", it's esay to log in for 5, 10, 15 minutes and do something. I feel that's alot more respectful for your time. If you cant commit to play for any lenght of time due to whatever, there's still something for you to do.

MrRotten
08-07-2007, 08:07 AM
There's a post here that quotes the development ideals for DDO, and if you'll look at that and then look at the game, they followed it. Turbine knows how to make an MMO in the traditional mold, they've done it before with AC and they've redone it with LoTR:O. DDO wasn't meant to be a traditional MMO from the ground up, and it shows.

I totally agree with both points on this. DDO wasn't meant to be traditional, and IMO isn't right now. However adding a few small things that I outlined in my posts wouldn't change it either. It would give us more options, but still not make it like the traditional MMOs that are out there.


Some of you say we need crafting, that it will give us something to do besides questing, and to a very limited extend, you are correct. Problem is, it would seem you don't understand how crafting in D&D works at all. Joe the Fighter can't go and make that vorpal or paralyzer or greater whatever bane weapon he wants. Jill the Rogue can't either, nor can Krushem the Barbarian. Crafting magical items in D&D is a very different thing then you are used to in other MMOs, you don't just walk up to a trainer and learn the basics then go off and gather materials and then work your way through the crafting tree. First off, you don't generally make the base items used to make magical items, you buy them or have someone else provide them to you for enchanting. Then you spend time(days at least), money and XP to enchant the item. In PnP this is very simple and quick and mostly painless, except for the XP loss, you simply get with the DM, tell him what you are doing, he makes sure you spend the proper money, makes a roll or two, then says 'ok, it's done' and it's done. Now, in DDO, how exactly would you like this to work? You go to create something that's going to require 10 days, does that mean you can't play the character for 10 days? 10 hours? 10 minutes? What time frame is used? Oh..and did I forget to mention that you can't just learn how to craft by talking to a trainer..no..I did mention that..but I wasn't clear on what that means. It requires FEATS to craft magical items in D&D, oh, and the ability to cast the magical spell/s required for the enchantments going into the items. Brew Potions, Craft Magical Arms and Armors, Craft Rods, Craft Staffs, Craft Wands, Craft Wonderous Items, Forge Rings, and Scribe Scroll...which is already ingame in an altered(mutilated) form. And like I said, you must be able to cast the spell/s required on top of having the feat required so it's only casters who'll be crafting magical items.

I've PnP DnD for a long while, so I am familure with how crafting works in PnP in that you need to select the Feat and put points in certain skills etc. etc.. The fact that somethings take days to successfuly make. DragonMarks were implamented and just like PnP were feats, forcing us to choose to drop more important feats for DragonMarks. Funny thing is, people still picked DragonMarks. As I said in alot of my posts in this thread, all we really want are OPTIONs. Would I pick up a crafting feat? Well let me think about this.. The items it crafts are hardly goddly basically, and hardly something that I truly doubt i'd even use. So would I drop an important feat to pick up a crafting feat? Probably not, but hey, its an OPTION that I could choose. There WILL BE someone out there that will do it. The PnP crafting system should be a part of the DDO expierance wether you think so or not. Its in DnD/PnP and should have some sort of play in DDO plain and simple. As I said, it shouldn't be the focus of the game, it shouldn't be so hard either that its dumb to do. But again, as I think you even said. You shouldn't be able to make Vorpals and Paralyzers. Quite honestly, it'd be an option again for the more RPGers like DragonMarks. I'm sure the masterminds at Turbine can figure out how to adjust the 10days to make a piece of armor to a more of a MMO time frame. I for one would like to see it happen, even if I most likely wouldn't pick the feats on any of my toons.


DDO could use more social aspects, there's little if any of that ingame now. Personally I'd love to see the music system they did for LoTR:O put into DDO, I loved that in the closed beta, it was a lot of fun and a great social interaction tool. Also made some coppers off it by playing tunes in areas where people gathered for various reason...even got a gold piece(HUGE money in LoTR:O) to STOP playing once...critics...shesh. Some sort of games of chance that require multiple players to get going, actual drinks that make you drunk(that was a blast in LoTR:O), more emotes, dances, things that let us actually socialize and give us a reason to do so.

I couldn't agree more with this point you made as well. First of all PnP DnD is alot about socializing in the RPG game. I mean how often did PnP players expierance a moment where they found themselves in a tavern drinking, bar fighting, and talking to people to get some sort of work? Some of our campains started like that. So yea, I think more EMOTEs, a decent music system, and even the drinking in the tavern could add to the RPG parts of DDO.

Again, my point was in a earlier post was to add things such as this without taking away from the CORE of the game. The game is great the way it is, but adding small things to this game that don't powerfuly overtake the game, but add to the game even more..


On another note, I still think that changing the "Collectables System" to be a bit more rewarding and maybe easier to track.. This also could be one way to add something to the game without changing really anything.

What do you guys think?

Ashet
08-07-2007, 08:32 AM
P.S. This opinion was penned before the announcement for server merging. I will have to side with the doom camp on this one. I sense an NGE level event in the near future. SWG refugees will know what I mean.

I too am an SWG refugee, and well remember the NGE (my poor Jedi). The problem with being a SWG veteran is that we are always looking around the next corner for the next betrayal by the developers. These guys ain't perfect, but they also ain't SOE