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View Full Version : Remove prereq for raids



JD2134
07-21-2007, 03:58 PM
I have one simple request remove the need to run the prereq for raids over and over. Make the demon queen and dragon like the titan and Reaver.

Heck i be happy if there was a requirment to pay 100k gold to never have to do the prereq for each raid again. i mean 100k gold is worth the time it takes to run von 1-4 again. or gett he demon queen item.

You devs can leave in the prequeen quest and von5. just let us bypass Von1-4 and for the queen Offering,chains,and the wizking

GramercyRiff
07-21-2007, 04:42 PM
I second this notion. Having to rerun Von got old more than a year ago. And the DQ quests are extremely stale as well. Raids are great for keeping people playing this game, but long ago it became work to repeatedly stay ready for Von and DQ. Retro fitting these raids with the mechanic of the Titan and Reaver would be very welcome at this point.

Conejo
07-21-2007, 05:04 PM
concur.

i love fighting Velah, but i hate needing VoN 1-4 every bloody time.

scorn_the_infallible
07-22-2007, 06:03 AM
as it is i hardly ever run those because of the prequests


and it would go a long way to keeping people playing

Shecky
07-22-2007, 06:25 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to this.

Mad_Bombardier
07-22-2007, 08:26 AM
My first thought is that some of Velah's items are ridiculously overpowered and therefore Devs don't want easy access to them. Of course, anyone who really wants to run it can flag VoNs1-4 in 30-60 mins anyway and 3 man the Velah to get more loot.

Plane of Night has Vault of Night as a 12 man pre-raid, so could be exempt from flagging. Even if you run VoN5 in 20 minutes with your normal group, its still a stepping stone. And not needing to be flagged means more PUGs running with more players.

However, the Demon Queen does not have a 12 man pre-mission like Titan/Velah, so could be reworked like GH relics for perma-flag status. Add some relic/token to each of the pre-missions and turn in to Zawabi. I'd almost say Ancient Bronze Tokens, but they also appear in desert chests. Maybe 1 of each of the items, 1000 Tokens, and gold? I don't know, that seems too easy. But, something along those lines.

AEschyl
07-22-2007, 08:58 AM
von 1-4 takes 45 minutes
von 5 takes 35 minutes
von 6 takes 10 minutes
an hour and a half is not too much time to invest in a raid

wiz king takes 15 minutes
chains of flame takes 20 minutes
offering... no comment
adq (pre-raid) takes 25 minutes
the raid takes 10 minutes
an hour and 10 minutes is not too much time to invest in a raid

while yes i would agree i would PREFER these 2 raids to take on the mechanic that the titan/reaver take.. where do you draw the line? are you going to eventually stop running the titan because you have to go through the forge?

the joy of the dq is that you can gather as many orbs/phylacteries/bowls as you want so that all you have to do is run adq->dq when your timer resets.

things are the way they are, and i highly doubt turbine will take the time to retroactively "fix" these raids... considering they are the lower-level raids.. and we're all level 14 now and should be able to "burn through them"

Spell
07-22-2007, 01:36 PM
von 1-4 takes 45 minutes
von 5 takes 35 minutes
von 6 takes 10 minutes
an hour and a half is not too much time to invest in a raid


an 1:30???? For what level characters are you running this? Level 14 vorpal/paralyzer/smiter swingers? Then factor in the time just getting the group together and the fact that every 15mins someone is going go to AFK for 5mins. Then roll 1d20 and on a natural 20 that someone will have to leave the group and you are spending time to replace them. And heaven forbid it should be the cleric, because your time sink is guaranteed to double with that alone.

Even then, I have 5 level 14's. To keep all of these toons flagged I would have to spend nearly 8hrs a day for just one quest. 90% of my playing time now is spent just trying to keep my toons flagged for raids.

For new players or players with only one high level toon, I would agree with you. But with lack of any new high level content we are left with constant raiding. With dragon scales that drop with the frequency of dragons out of the sky, players have better luck getting loot out of raids.

Yes, the game needs to be challenging to up and coming players. But after the 25th VoN run I would think the Barrow d'Kundarak would know me by name now and welcome me on in. The game is already keeping track of the number of times we enter quests. It wouldn't take much programming to look at that and give us a free pass after our 10th or 15th time through the flagging.

Let's be totally honest though. Turbine's number are propped up by the time we spend playing the game. The have to keep us busy with the mindless tedium of repetition.

Hordo
07-22-2007, 01:51 PM
Whereas I really don't mind re-flagging so much as it doesn't take too much time, it would be much better not to have to do so for one major reason. The number of times one needs to run it to enjoy the actual dragon raid leaves one with little or no xp. It is awesome to run newer toons through these quests in order to get the xp on the way to the dragon, going from normal to elite, but even on elite after the umpteenth time the xp is negligible for those toons for which this is old hat. Maybe have a level requirement for no longer flagging once flagged. Like, all level 11+ toons that have flagged don't need to anymore or some such.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-22-2007, 02:07 PM
von 1-4 takes 45 minutes
von 5 takes 35 minutes
von 6 takes 10 minutes
an hour and a half is not too much time to invest in a raid

wiz king takes 15 minutes
chains of flame takes 20 minutes
offering... no comment
adq (pre-raid) takes 25 minutes
the raid takes 10 minutes
an hour and 10 minutes is not too much time to invest in a raid

while yes i would agree i would PREFER these 2 raids to take on the mechanic that the titan/reaver take.. where do you draw the line? are you going to eventually stop running the titan because you have to go through the forge?

the joy of the dq is that you can gather as many orbs/phylacteries/bowls as you want so that all you have to do is run adq->dq when your timer resets.

things are the way they are, and i highly doubt turbine will take the time to retroactively "fix" these raids... considering they are the lower-level raids.. and we're all level 14 now and should be able to "burn through them"


Ok Mr Uber... First off not everyone can 3 man them in those times even at L14. Secondly not everyone is L14 now. There might be some L10 & L12 players who would like to run it again.

Lebrac
07-22-2007, 04:59 PM
Ok Mr Uber... First off not everyone can 3 man them in those times even at L14. Secondly not everyone is L14 now. There might be some L10 & L12 players who would like to run it again.

I hate to say this but if your lvl 10-12 u should LOVE running von 1-4.... von 3 alone is 10K exp... this in its self should drive u to running them the only ppl that have even 1/2 an argument against running these are lvl 14 chars. and even then like the one person said they really dont' take long once u get to know them witch if u like the raids u should get to know them.


But Me for one who keeps atleast 1 char on all 4 raid timers at all times and other on most raid timers i really enjoy haveing to run 1-4 and running all the desert quests. these are some of the best built quests in the game yes not the best loot for most of them but good loot for others but who cares your running them for fun.. and if they are not fun to you then you should run with people u can have chalenges with to put a little extra something into them.

One last point is Eveyone keeps asking for High lvl content... now i see you asking to take away high lvl content... could u pls make up your mind? I for one would love more high lvl content just like these 2 raids. I love haveing to actualy do something to get the raid loot other then just walking in spending 10 min in a quest and walking out with +3 tomes and such.

Dragonhyde
07-22-2007, 05:10 PM
Ok Mr Uber... First off not everyone can 3 man them in those times even at L14. Secondly not everyone is L14 now. There might be some L10 & L12 players who would like to run it again.
The times seem about right for anyone lvl 14 who has ran those quests multiple times and know the ins and outs. And I have actually seen several lvl 10-12 raids go on for dragon lately.

Personally I believe if you take all prereqs out of "bound loot" raids then they should up the time between raid runs. It shouldnt be extremely easy to keep rerunning for the loot. Out of all of the raid prereqs, I like the DQ set up the best...have to rerun quests but the ability to bank the items was nice.

Furgulder
07-22-2007, 06:49 PM
Aeschyl is taking twinked alts or capped toons into account, and a guild or steady group for this.

Try doing vons 1-4 with a pick up group in an hour and 30 minutes. all strangers. 95/100 u will have someone screwing up, quitting, having to pick up their girlfriend from the mall, going afk for a 10 min dump, etc.

An average von 1-4 group takes 2+ hours to complete. Assuming you dont wipe on von 3 because no one has weapons to hurt marut, or someone doesnt fall off von 2 a few times.

efreet5
07-22-2007, 07:50 PM
Lvl 14 toons, even in a pug, should be able to fly through the vons with no trouble. If the cleric leaves? So what? A healer isn't even needed for these quests at lvl 14, not only uber players can get through these quests quickly. If you are in a group of people that have repeated these quests too many times to count then no one should have any problems with going in under manned. By now they are only a time sink and not even challenging.

Baryn
07-22-2007, 08:25 PM
Whenever we run the dragon, we always run VoN 1-6. I think it adds to the "epicness" of the raid itself. I don't find any enjoyment in flagging myself for a raid, then getting a group together, and running 5-6 within 30-45 minutes and being done. I really like the sense of accomplishment to run through 1-4. Even though I have run it a million times, it still feels like I'm just one step closer to making the raid. Then once we finally finish VoN4, I'm looking forward to 5 and 6, knowing that I worked my way up to it, and now I'm there.

Same with Demon Queen. I enjoy running Wiz-King, then Offering, and then Chains of Flame again each time. I don't like to stock up on items. It adds to the sense of accomplishment for me. Once I get just about to the end of Chains, then I enjoy clearing out to the pre-raid for the group. Zooming through the pre-raid, and then heading on to the actual queen gives me that feeling that I really accomplished something. As opposed to just, waiting 3 days like the Reaver.

The Reaver is an easy raid, a quick-raid, and feels almost just like a once-every-3-days loot run. There's really no sense of accomplishment at all. You don't actually have to do much to get ready for it. And if there is any sense at all, it's when you turn in your relics, and finish the pre-raid. Which doesn't repeat itself each time you do it. So it feels pretty lame. Especially when 4-manning the Reaver Raid is just about as easy (if not easier), than 12-manning it.

At least with the Titan you have the Twilight Forge before it, so you actually get that sense of accomplishment once you get to the end, and know you are finally actually at the titan himself. There's a build-up of excitement between when you step into the forge, and when you actually get to the end. And then that final big relief when you finally finish it.

This just may be me personally, but I really like the way that the raids are set up now. It also prevents "newbies" from getting handed relics, and baby-sat through the pre-raid to get raid ready (once and for all). No, I'm not an elitist, but I do think that raid gear and raiding should be a status symbol rather than something that every casual player has. Taking away raid pre-reqs would allow a lot more casual players, and lazy players, to get quite a bit of raid gear. And if it becomes commonplace to have certain said, raid-gear, then it will end up like the Spell Storing Ring could have ended up. Where you don't get invited to groups unless you have 5 of them, or unless you have a vorpal, or a smiter, or whatever said raid gear. It is kind of a pain in the ### sometimes, but you work hard for it, and when you get it, you've earned it. Taking away pre-reqs abolishes this. Because, as even said in this thread; there are people who don't run the dragon raid, because they have to spend an hour on the pre-reqs.

I'm a long-time player since beta, and the leader of a semi-hardcore raid guild, so that may sway my opinion a little bit, but I really enjoy the way it is set up now. I know it's not going to be changed, so really my opinion doesn't matter; but if this post does get read by someone higher up then please keep the raids the way they are.

*teleports to portable hole*

AEschyl
07-22-2007, 10:49 PM
An average von 1-4 group takes 2+ hours to complete. Assuming you dont wipe on von 3 because no one has weapons to hurt marut, or someone doesnt fall off von 2 a few times.
well then if you are a competent player.. you should know to ask the people in the party before you enter von 3: "hey, does someone here have the weapons to hurt the marut?"

a well prepared/competent player can usually make up for the mistakes of his group members...

yes those times are very doable in pugs.

i ran a pug group (i was the only member of my guild in this run) through chains of flame... took 11 minutes. and i only knew 1 of the people in that group from previous questing.

Conejo
07-22-2007, 10:58 PM
By now they are only a time sink and not even challenging.

so let's get rid of the time sink.

Shade
07-23-2007, 10:28 AM
wiz king takes 15 minutes
chains of flame takes 20 minutes
offering... no comment
adq (pre-raid) takes 25 minutes
the raid takes 10 minutes
an hour and 10 minutes is not too much time to invest in a raid


I've done all those quests in faster times then that.. But the whole thing was never accomplished in hour and 10min. Always takes allot longer due to the time to actually run to the quests, the downtime between quests of people selecting rewards and selling, breaks.. Etc. You know this happens even on your runs so dont say it takes 1hour 10min.. Thats like the fastest possible time. Even a fast run with maxxed out group your still looking at a average of a little over 2hours, which is really too long.

PsyloSatan
07-23-2007, 10:34 AM
I know it seems awefully WOWish but alot of these dungeons need a heroic setting. I think its a terrible idea to remove the pre raid quests or have 75% of the quests non repeatable because there is no possible gain involved like it is currently. Slap a setting on these dungeons that increases all the mobs to CR 20(ish) and make the chests reflect it. I think it would be alot of fun to run VON 3 (for example) with mobs the same level as gianthold mobs and even tho you will probably be alot thinner when (or if) you complete it you will be happy with some of the loot you walk away with. If something like that could be done Im guessing it would increase game content by at least 50%.

Just an idea.

But seriously, dont get rid of content.

Arjen
07-23-2007, 10:36 AM
Totally agree. My guild hits the Stormreaver 6x a week and the titan another 2 or 3 simply because there is no need to reflag. Yes, we can reflag quickly, but it just feels tiring running the vons or the desert quests again. Hopefully future raids will follow the SR model (large time sink to flag, then no need for it again).

Roguewiz
07-23-2007, 10:38 AM
It takes my usual group about 35-40 minutes to clear VoN1-4. We make it a point to see how fast we can clear. ;)

akla_thornfist
07-23-2007, 10:55 AM
the vons are my favorite quests i dont mind running them, but it wouldnt hurt my feelings if we didnt have to run them to fight the dragon.