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Bamff
07-20-2007, 02:59 PM
I cannot properly express the HUGE frustration i feel, when every time I apply for a high level PUG group, i have to send a tell explaining I am strength based, and a tripper/stunner before i get an invite. People see the ranger icon, and want to immediately say, Oh i don't want a bow user, or dex monkey...

Why is this? Why would a party be against a Dex based Ranger with a bow?

KoboldKiller
07-20-2007, 03:27 PM
Why is this? Why would a party be against a Dex based Ranger with a bow?

Because some people cannot get over the whole DPS issue. A Ranged Ranger typically cannot deal out as much damage as quickly as the melee types. I have the same problem at times with my Ranger. They may have been in some groups as well where someone did not know how to play a ranged build properly. I feel though that I play mine well enough that my reputation is starting to build and I get into more PuGs.

Mad_Bombardier
07-20-2007, 03:27 PM
Why is this? Why would a party be against a Dex based Ranger with a bow?"Some" Rangers use bows. "Some" archers shoot when they're not supposed to and draw unnecessary aggro from enemies. Also, bows shoot slowly. About 1/2 the rate of one-handed melee and 1/3 the rate of TWF Rangers. Slow attacking means less damage. Lastly, high DEX typically means low STR. Low STR means low damage.

Basically, it's closed minded people who do not want to deviate from their standard groupings of how they know to run quests. Archery can be effective if used in numbers and in the proper situations.

isldur
07-20-2007, 03:31 PM
This has basically become a non issue. In the beginning of the game it was quite ugly. Then people learned how good a ranger could be, and others learned how to play a good ranger.:D

Bamff
07-20-2007, 03:35 PM
..."Some" archers shoot when they're not supposed to and draw unnecessary aggro from enemies. Also, bows shoot slowly. About 1/2 the rate of one-handed melee and 1/3 the rate of TWF Rangers. Slow attacking means less damage. Lastly, high DEX typically means low STR. Low STR means low damage...

...Archery can be effective if used in numbers and in the proper situations.


... They may have been in some groups as well where someone did not know how to play a ranged build properly. I feel though that I play mine well enough that my reputation is starting to build and I get into more PuGs.

Based on those two comments:
How should an archer be used to not generate aggro (other than waiting for the 'tank' to strike first)?

My ranger has a strength of 14, is that considered low?

What are a couple (just a couple) examples of playing a Ranger 'Properly'?

Mad_Bombardier
07-20-2007, 03:42 PM
My ranger has a strength of 14, is that considered low? Yes. My "DEX monkey" Ranger has a 20 STR, and it is also considered low at scoffed at by many players.

Based on those two comments:
How should an archer be used to not generate aggro (other than waiting for the 'tank' to strike first)?One main trick is to not shoot enemies. If you want to get aggro from an enemy, shoot the ground near it. It will perform a spot/listen check, then search in your direction. If you shoot it directly, every enemy near the target will automatically come charging when you hurt the first enemy.

The main offense from newbie Rangers is using auto-attack and tab-targetting enemies. They inadvertantly shoot an arrow at each target they tab through, drawing aggro from each, and the mobs near each.

KoboldKiller
07-20-2007, 03:48 PM
I guess "properly" was not the right term however, IMHO the best way to play the "Ranged" Ranger is as follows. Advanced scouting, pulling (such as the camps in Irestone Inlet), targeting casters to keep them occupied, and I stay in the rear for the occasional breakthrough to defend the squishies. That is what I consider "properly". Each person plays differently and each build should be played the way a player wants to play it. There are good builds and bad builds just like there are good players and bad players.

Bamff
07-20-2007, 03:48 PM
Yes. My "DEX monkey" Ranger has a 20 STR, and it is also considered low at scoffed at by many players.
One main trick is to not shoot enemies. If you want to get aggro from an enemy, shoot the ground near it. It will perform a spot/listen check, then search in your direction. If you shoot it directly, every enemy near the target will automatically come charging when you hurt the first enemy.

The main offense from newbie Rangers is using auto-attack and tab-targetting enemies. They inadvertantly shoot an arrow at each target they tab through, drawing aggro from each, and the mobs near each.

I guess I should mention that my Ranger is only lvl 3 with a 14 STR.
But 20 being a low STR is just insane to me.

Seems like the more I play this game, the more Min/max people I find and the less I enjoy the game. Not the games fault but **** just the same.

Mad_Bombardier
07-20-2007, 04:02 PM
I guess I should mention that my Ranger is only lvl 3 with a 14 STR. But 20 being a low STR is just insane to me.And mine is at level 14 endgame. So, you have lots of room to grow. :)

KoboldKiller is correct. There are many builds and many playstyles. I think the biggest thing to watch for is to be flexible in your own play to meet the needs of the group/team. If you draw too much aggro too fast and your teammates ask you to stop, then stop. If you are TWF and taking too much damage, change your aggro management techniques or switch to using a shield. If you can play Ranger and scout ahead and bring select enemies back to your waiting party, do it! Not to say that you can't have a playstyle all your own and need to meet the whims of the party leader. Just to respect the people around you and you'll do fine.

QuantumFX
07-20-2007, 04:24 PM
It simply comes down to the fact that a lot of players in DDO have absolutely no clue how to integrate a ranger into their group.

My idiot PuG turndown story is with a sorc on Adar who felt his group needed "a tank" to run the Pit. (If you haven't run the Pit yet. Just wait you'll soon learn why this situation was so damn funny.) So, I let my guild in on the joke (I'm the resident Pit master.) and joined up with another Pit master and did MuckDoom runs.

tihocan
07-23-2007, 09:11 AM
I guess I should mention that my Ranger is only lvl 3 with a 14 STR.
But 20 being a low STR is just insane to me.

Seems like the more I play this game, the more Min/max people I find and the less I enjoy the game. Not the games fault but **** just the same.
Bah, don't get disheartened by other people's comments. About any non stupid build is viable and nobody will really notice if you have 18 str or 24 at level 14.
Just play your char how you enjoy playiing it. Sometimes you will not get into a group because the leader is narrow-minded. It happens, and once you can just ignore it, it's not an issue at all :)

Aranticus
07-23-2007, 09:20 AM
i was in a 6 rgr party in stormcleave.... all of us were min L6 in on elite setting... you seen carnage? 6 rangers IS carnage.... nothing, absolutely nothing got within 10 ft of us. we rotated our multishots. 3 pairs, each handling 1 multishot spprox 15 seconds from each other to even out the dps. in bigger battles, we'd just stand on platforms and pretty much multishot evenything that move... even donuts. :D

i'd like to run raids with 12 rangers and see how the fun goes.... :eek:

Club'in
07-24-2007, 06:22 PM
14 strength is fine. I took mine up to 16, but had to sacrifice con to do it. It's a tough choice. It wasn't my first character, so I thought I'd be fine with lower hit points, since I knew all the dungeons. I've done just fine. So with that 16, Bull's Strength gets me up to 20. You'll be able to boost to 18, which is just fine. Don't hesitate to ask the spell casters for a Bulls. I'm always asking for a Bears. :)

Ekental
07-25-2007, 05:52 AM
Ranged dmg is most useful as a support tool, or shooting into large mobs. Your bow should come out only then, or when you have manyshot up (once/2 minutes)

Otherwise, TWF & Melee will be the most effective means in DPS delivery.

isldur
07-27-2007, 04:56 PM
Ranged dmg is most useful as a support tool, or shooting into large mobs. Your bow should come out only then, or when you have manyshot up (once/2 minutes)

Otherwise, TWF & Melee will be the most effective means in DPS delivery.

Thats just dumb talk from someone who apparently doesn't know what a good bow using ranger can do.

Why is that mob leaving the fighter when I shoot my bow even without multi shot? Because I'm doing more damage. If a fighter is worth his/her salt is in the group they simply use intimidate to aquire aggro again.

Yes twf and melee is usually the most effective dps delivery, but that usually isn't the rangers job.

For the op strength of 14 isn't bad remember you will get bigger + strength items as you level. Do a forum search on static rewards to find out what quest give what. I.E. I believe tangleroot has +3 strength gloves as end reward.

When you get high enough run the vampire in house P to get the silver bow, keep running it till the bow drops. It is still one of the most powerful bows even at level 14.

KoboldKiller
07-27-2007, 05:17 PM
Thats just dumb talk from someone who apparently doesn't know what a good bow using ranger can do.

Why is that mob leaving the fighter when I shoot my bow even without multi shot? Because I'm doing more damage. If a fighter is worth his/her salt is in the group they simply use intimidate to aquire aggro again.

Yes twf and melee is usually the most effective dps delivery, but that usually is the rangers job.

For the op strength of 14 isn't bad remember you will get bigger + strength items as you level. Do a forum search on static rewards to find out what quest give what. I.E. I believe tangleroot has +3 strength gloves as end reward.

When you get high enough run the vampire in house P to get the silver bow, keep running it till the bow drops. It is still one of the most powerful bows even at level 14.

I agree. I have experienced drawing agro many times. I have a Silver bow and use it almost all the time, it rocks for what I have right now. Obviously I'll be looking for Paralizers, wounders, and such but try to get a Silver when you can. I got mine from the AH.

Raath
07-27-2007, 05:25 PM
Thats just dumb talk from someone who apparently doesn't know what a good bow using ranger can do.

Why is that mob leaving the fighter when I shoot my bow even without multi shot? Because I'm doing more damage. If a fighter is worth his/her salt is in the group they simply use intimidate to aquire aggro again.

Yes twf and melee is usually the most effective dps delivery, but that usually is the rangers job.

For the op strength of 14 isn't bad remember you will get bigger + strength items as you level. Do a forum search on static rewards to find out what quest give what. I.E. I believe tangleroot has +3 strength gloves as end reward.

When you get high enough run the vampire in house P to get the silver bow, keep running it till the bow drops. It is still one of the most powerful bows even at level 14.

Agreed. I always seem to ask myself "are these guys even hitting them??" And if I notice that's the case, I'll usually pull out my destruction bow to help them out.

Re: the silver bow. I havent used mine in months, and then it's usually only for "old time sakes".

Symar-FangofLloth
07-27-2007, 05:25 PM
While dex ranger is such a hot topic right this moment, I've a question. How well would a ranged warforged ranger work? To get a high dex I might be better off not taking any body feats, but I'd like to know if anyone has experience with this. And sorry for being off topic.

Raath
07-27-2007, 05:30 PM
While dex ranger is such a hot topic right this moment, I've a question. How well would a ranged warforged ranger work? To get a high dex I might be better off not taking any body feats, but I'd like to know if anyone has experience with this. And sorry for being off topic.

I wish I could help you, but I know nothing about playing a warforged. Perhaps ask in the rangers fourm? i bet you'll get all kinds of info there.

sigtrent
07-27-2007, 05:41 PM
Rangers are great.. however.. some of them don't think through their tactics and just kind of get hung up on shooting at stuff.

Starting at 14 Str is fine for a ranger, just about right unless you want to specilize in doing damage (and then you might go for 16, or 18 in specilized cases).

Here are my thoughts in list form....

Ranger Dont's
Use your bow every time and all the time
Shoot monsters in the distance without warning anyone
Agro and kite a bunch of monsters in a melee heavy group that could easily kill them if they were standing still
Pick your own monster that no one else is fighting and keep shooting it until it dies
Shoot a monster/monsters while it stands there and beats on you
Slowly peach monsters the party could kill without taking any real damage anyway.

Ranger Dos
Switch weapons to best combat a given monster
Learn how to effectively pull monsters for your group
Kill monsters who are perching the party
Do significant damage to oncoming monsters so they are weak by the time they encounter the party.
Pearch monsters to save party resources
Use your mana for resists and barkskin for the party tanks
Kite a few monsters when the party can't handly fighting them all at once, and bring them in when the others are dead.
Add damage to the targets your parties tanks are fighting.
Use TWF for awesome DPS when its needed.
Keep a shield around for running past mosnters or the like.
Let the party know what tactics you like to use.

GORAK
07-27-2007, 05:50 PM
I play a level 10 warforged archer ranger on Xoriat called Archerbot. He has default comp plate body and is entirely DEX based with a 27 DEX right now. I play him mainly as an archer strafing side to side, half moons or semi-circles as he kills mobs. I go to sword/shield when a tough mob comes to face me and then click a barkskin to put me to 41 ac. I have not seen a pure WF ranger before so I asked the high level warforged Ranger trainer, Recurve, over by the marketplace bank and he suggested I make one. :-)

geoffhanna
07-27-2007, 10:27 PM
I guess I should mention that my Ranger is only lvl 3 with a 14 STR.
But 20 being a low STR is just insane to me.

Seems like the more I play this game, the more Min/max people I find and the less I enjoy the game. Not the games fault but **** just the same.

I have never had a PUG ask me if I am a STR ranger or drop me because of my build.

My ranger has only 14 STR unbuffed. Yet she's capped now with over 2000 favor. And not because I am some kind of uber player either, I'm not (others may pop in to post how much they agree that I am not uber :D )

14 is plenty. As you progress you will find bows that do status damage instead of DPS damage and that will be every bit as valuable as DPS. Also consider the Weapon Finesse feat so you can melee effectively when an enemy breaks through to you or you are in one of those situations where ranging is not really an option.

It is possible to build your ranger all kinds of different ways, including as a primary tank, but I personally like to be able to do a variety of roles effectively. Range when appropriate, melee when not, heal and use cleric wands, plus you have excellent buff abilities, especially later when you get the Barkskin spell.

Don't let the man get ya down Bamff!

Ekental
07-28-2007, 06:58 AM
Thats just dumb talk from someone who apparently doesn't know what a good bow using ranger can do.

Why is that mob leaving the fighter when I shoot my bow even without multi shot? Because I'm doing more damage. If a fighter is worth his/her salt is in the group they simply use intimidate to aquire aggro again.

Yes twf and melee is usually the most effective dps delivery, but that usually isn't the rangers job.
...

When you get high enough run the vampire in house P to get the silver bow, keep running it till the bow drops. It is still one of the most powerful bows even at level 14.

The silver bow is going to be the highest dmging generic holy bow you're likely going to ever get, barring greater banes.

I'm not sure where I said bow using rangers were "useless". I simply said that bows are NOT the most efficient means of getting out the dmg without a plethora of targets or manyshot. (preferably both)

As for getting aggro with a bow, its been obvious for several mods that aggro mechanics are weighted. That is, a bow draws more than a generic melee attack, which draws more than stat dmg, etc. etc. etc.

Honestly, if you think you're going to be doing more dmg to a single mob than a DPS fighter without manyshot up, you're deluding yourself. If you're fighters can't hit when you, the ranger can, then that's a fault with the fighters themselves, not the class in general.

"Dumb talk" isn't necessary, anyone with a hand calculator and some free time can calculate average damage per hit, factor that into attack speed (which.. for a bow is much slower than a melee weapon) and get damage per second.

A high strength (as in max str possible) ranger will, per shot, do more dmg than a fighter against his favored enemy, that's about it. If he's using a bow, he'll STILL fall behind in pure damage since the attack speed of a bow is slower than that of melee.

Assuming I've had no experience with several ranger builds is a silly assertion.

Of all the posts here, I believe "sigtrent" and "geoffhanna" general message sums it up pretty well.
As of yet, I don't think my original claim is refuted. The bow is a SUPPORT weapon. The only exception is when you have manyshot up and/or a large group of mobs.

VonBek
07-28-2007, 08:45 AM
Ranger Dos
1 Use TWF for awesome DPS when its needed.
2 Keep a shield around for running past mosnters or the like.
3 Let the party know what tactics you like to use.

Put another way, 1You may want to start out thinking that Two Weapon Fighting is a "trick" and not a staple. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

If you are taking out a caster in a sneaky fashion, your TWF will get his HP down pretty quick; his AC will usually be less than a melee mob. 2Assuming you took out the caster, and melee mobs are onto you, now, switch to sword & board so you can take their beating, while inflicting damage in return. 3 if you've worked this out ahead of time with your party, you may not need the shield long (if at all) and the caster will have been too busy dieing or running from you to have hit them with anything yucky, sticky, or stinky.


As of yet, I don't think my original claim is refuted. The bow is a SUPPORT weapon. The only exception is when you have manyshot up and/or a large group of mobs.

Yep. Generally speaking, the bow can make the enemy "squishier" before he reaches your team. At low levels, you may only knock off some of his HP. At upper levels, Destruction, Cursing, Wounding, etc... Soften them with artillery, and open a door for the ground pounders.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is counter sniping. Even if you only draw agro from the enemy's archers and turtle up, you're you're dividing the enemy's ability to focus on your party and diffusing their assault.

isldur
07-29-2007, 11:35 PM
I didn't mean to start a flame war and sorry for the "dumb" thing. A ranger isn't really suppose to be the main tank, it can be done, but is a bit painful for most, not all.

If that is the way aggro works, and I'm not sure it is, that's just wrong. If you can find a dev post pointing this out that would be most helpful. Just like the fighter progression to hit is stupid. Tho I think the first choice of aggro would be a wiz or sorc using any spell.:(

I really was just responding to the op questioning why a group leader would not want a dex based bow using ranger in his group. And there really is no answer except he already has one or he doesn't have any tanks. Even then it's just stupidity and/or laziness. You can do any quest in this game with any type of group make up, some just take more work and more money.

Aranticus
07-30-2007, 02:27 AM
I didn't mean to start a flame war and sorry for the "dumb" thing. A ranger isn't really suppose to be the main tank, it can be done, but is a bit painful for most, not all.

If that is the way aggro works, and I'm not sure it is, that's just wrong. If you can find a dev post pointing this out that would be most helpful. Just like the fighter progression to hit is stupid. Tho I think the first choice of aggro would be a wiz or sorc using any spell.:(

I really was just responding to the op questioning why a group leader would not want a dex based bow using ranger in his group. And there really is no answer except he already has one or he doesn't have any tanks. Even then it's just stupidity and/or laziness. You can do any quest in this game with any type of group make up, some just take more work and more money.

no, you are not totally wrong either. most players are biased against rangers but do not admit it. party make up and tactic ranks high above classes. if you get them right you can fit in any class. just yesterday i did madstone on hard in a group that has 1 ftr, 2 rgr, 2 sorc and 1 clr. no one in the quest died. me and the other rgr was working in tandem. he was stat damaging and i was twf with a puncturing rapier and a paralysing off-hand. i was also doing crowd control with my fearsome robe. the tank went around vorping all the feared mobs and to aid me, 1 caster was holding the mobs as we go along.

now if we were to use the tank charge caster fod tactic, the group may not have fared as well. party dynamics is important. many players simply think the only mtd is to get the tanks to vorp and clean up the mobs, casters to nuke and clerics to heal, others support. they are seriously mistaken. different party requires different tactics. many just fail to see that for they are too entrenched in just a couple.... :cool:

KoboldKiller
07-30-2007, 03:38 PM
I saw a LFM yesterday that specifically stated "no Rangers". When I asked why and pointed out my success using Rangers (as I have 2) he replied that rangers were half as effective as Fighters and to let him run his party his way. I got the impression he really hated Rangers. He is now on my "do not group" list :D .

Dariuss
07-30-2007, 04:14 PM
To put in my 2 coppers:

Up until recently, I didn't have much use for Rangers. For two reasons. 1) I didn't understand the class. 2) I had run into a higher number of 'bad' Rangers than any other class. I would never turn one down, but I sure didn't go looking for them.

Then I thought that I'd make a Ranger, just for fun. So I went through some different options (dex based, strength based, ranged, melee, etc) and decided on a STR based TWF.

This guy can dish out more damage than any class I've played. All i have right now is +2 items, no elemental damage. And he just walks through most bad guys. Now, his AC isn't as high (because he doesn't have a shield on most times), but it's still decent (21 at lvl 3). Of course I can wand heal myself, so he just needs to get through the battle alive and he's fine.

KoboldKiller
07-30-2007, 04:27 PM
To put in my 2 coppers:

Up until recently, I didn't have much use for Rangers. For two reasons. 1) I didn't understand the class. 2) I had run into a higher number of 'bad' Rangers than any other class. I would never turn one down, but I sure didn't go looking for them.

Then I thought that I'd make a Ranger, just for fun. So I went through some different options (dex based, strength based, ranged, melee, etc) and decided on a STR based TWF.

This guy can dish out more damage than any class I've played. All i have right now is +2 items, no elemental damage. And he just walks through most bad guys. Now, his AC isn't as high (because he doesn't have a shield on most times), but it's still decent (21 at lvl 3). Of course I can wand heal myself, so he just needs to get through the battle alive and he's fine.

My new Ranger is the Dwarf TWF str build and he rocks. To echo what you said the AC is a little low (splashed fighter for the armor feats) but if you kill it fast enough it can't hit you.

Akerue
08-01-2007, 02:15 PM
One main trick is to not shoot enemies. If you want to get aggro from an enemy, shoot the ground near it. It will perform a spot/listen check, then search in your direction. If you shoot it directly, every enemy near the target will automatically come charging when you hurt the first enemy.


This is awesome. I had no idea it would work this way. I want to go try it out right now.

Thanks for the tip.

Tequila
08-03-2007, 04:51 PM
Rangers are great.. however.. some of them don't think through their tactics and just kind of get hung up on shooting at stuff.

Starting at 14 Str is fine for a ranger, just about right unless you want to specilize in doing damage (and then you might go for 16, or 18 in specilized cases).

Here are my thoughts in list form....

Ranger Dont's
Use your bow every time and all the time
Shoot monsters in the distance without warning anyone
Agro and kite a bunch of monsters in a melee heavy group that could easily kill them if they were standing still
Pick your own monster that no one else is fighting and keep shooting it until it dies
Shoot a monster/monsters while it stands there and beats on you
Slowly peach monsters the party could kill without taking any real damage anyway.

Ranger Dos
Switch weapons to best combat a given monster
Learn how to effectively pull monsters for your group
Kill monsters who are perching the party
Do significant damage to oncoming monsters so they are weak by the time they encounter the party.
Pearch monsters to save party resources
Use your mana for resists and barkskin for the party tanks
Kite a few monsters when the party can't handly fighting them all at once, and bring them in when the others are dead.
Add damage to the targets your parties tanks are fighting.
Use TWF for awesome DPS when its needed.
Keep a shield around for running past mosnters or the like.
Let the party know what tactics you like to use.

I've played a Ranger character as one of my mains since starting to play DDO and had a long time character that was a Ranger in PnP D&D. My main right now is a dex based TWF character but I do like using a bow. While reading through this thread I came across these suggestions here and have to agree if someone who's not used to playing a Ranger kind of used these for a guide they'd be quite effective not to mention live longer.

I like using my bows (and I've built up quite a collection) to help beat down approaching enemies before they reach the fighters. You're not gonna have the highest kill ratio but you'll help ensure your group suvives and to me that's the key. Also I always try to aim for the casters who may hang back some from the front and range them while the fighters engage in the on coming mobs and don't forget the well placed archers that might take some climbing to reach. They're doing the same thing I'm doing, trying to weaken or kill their enemies. I do agree you must try and know your enemy and use the appropriate weapon whether it be a bow or a broad sword and choose wisely. Also using the multi-shot feat, when it comes availeable to you, anytime your using your bow is sweet.

As far as strength, my base was 12, I put more into my dex because I knew how I wanted to play him upon creation, and he's still effective even at higher levels. Whether he's ranging or engaged in melee. Course I supplimented with some strength items and bull strength if needed there's plenty of strength clickies laying around if you feel you need them.

Our guild ran several all Ranger runs just for fun and at different levels. We owned most quest we ran and had few deaths and fewer PWs and had a blast doing them.

Like some have said play your character as you want and have fun with it. As for some group leader not wanting you in their group because your a Ranger, well, I wouldn't want to run any toon, Ranger or not, with a bull headed leader like that anyway.

Good luck,
tequila

GORAK
08-07-2007, 01:53 PM
My ranger has a 34 AC using a bow with +20% striding boots and kites most mobs in certain patterns (figure 8's, boxes, circles, etc) through the frontline fighters. I can just sit there shooting away at mephits right on top of me while their breath weapon keep missing due to my evasion. One Jump spell can put me over a 50 Jump and then I jump onto a perch where mobs can not reach me and just keep sniping away. I try not to kite a mob in a fashion where the fighters are chasing it but rather in a semi-circle around or through their battle line where they can stand and swing at it. Some of the tighter space dungeons like in a tomb or sewer setting, I put the bow away and go sword/shield in the 2nd rank to protect the cleric and magic users. Weapon finesse makes you a viable melee fighter even with lessened DPS from your rapier or short sword.
One of my favorite tricks is to cast Jump or get the 30 min Jump spell from House P, find a dungeon area with a body of water where mobs can not reach me and then jump up, shoot in mid-air and come back down to the safety of the water. There are a handful of dungeons where there are sniper vantage points where mobs can not reach you.
Tactics and some strategy can make a ranger a very deadly opponent.