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Yndrofian
07-18-2007, 11:37 AM
1. yes, ive bugged it

2.

Spellsinger
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell
Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.


3. note the tool tip on this screenie
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/insanityslave/ScreenShot00306.jpg
it does NOT list extend as being one of the possible feat requirements.

soo...
note to bards w/ONLY extend as one of the prereq feats.
you wont be able to take spellsinger


i hope ive overlooked something, but ive double and triple checked this...
anyone else havin this issue?

Spookydodger
07-18-2007, 11:55 AM
Does the tool-tip not say it, or it does not allow you to get it at all?

Yndrofian
07-18-2007, 12:17 PM
Does the tool-tip not say it, or it does not allow you to get it at all?

both

Mart72
07-18-2007, 12:38 PM
Well not a problem cause every bard have MAGICAL TRAINING at the charac creation....am I wrong?

Coldin
07-18-2007, 12:40 PM
Well not a problem cause every bard have MAGICAL TRAINING at the charac creation....am I wrong?

Actually no. I hear only sorcerers and wizards get that lovely feat.

Mad_Bombardier
07-18-2007, 12:40 PM
Actually no. I hear only sorcerers and wizards get that lovely feat.And Clerics. Clerics are casters, too. :(

Mart72
07-18-2007, 12:41 PM
Ahhhhh k sorry!!! My mistake!!!

Coldin
07-18-2007, 12:43 PM
And Clerics.

Right, and clerics.

I suppose when druids get implements, they'll receive it as well.

Spookydodger
07-18-2007, 01:11 PM
Verified:
Purchased all prerequisite enhancements
Had extend spell metamagic feat

Could not purchase Spellsinger. Perhaps it was an issue with the UI, and had I bought the enhancements, finished, and got more enhancements, I could have got it. I doubt that, though.

Spookydodger
07-18-2007, 01:12 PM
This seems to be one of those things that might have been caught were there to be better testing tools on Risia. I think I'm going to pull a Freeman and put that in my signature, though I doubt I could "first" as many posts as he does.

Freeman
07-18-2007, 01:13 PM
This seems to be one of those things that might have been caught were there to be better testing tools on Risia. I think I'm going to pull a Freeman and put that in my signature, though I doubt I could "first" as many posts as he does.

With practice, you too can become a master. And I was second on some of them :)

Yndrofian
07-18-2007, 01:17 PM
This seems to be one of those things that might have been caught were there to be better testing tools on Risia.

perhaps..
and if i HAD my bard on risia i would have been able to see it
*cough cough*import characters*cough cough*

MysticTheurge
07-18-2007, 01:20 PM
It was caught on Risia. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1246502#post1246502)

Which leads me to believe it's not a bug and that they removed Extend from the possible prereqs. Which makes sense. Since pretty much every bard ever will have extend.

Eladrin
07-18-2007, 01:37 PM
This one's my fault, sorry everyone.

As noted in the thread, Extend Spell was never a prereq for Spellsinger even on Risia, the patch note that I sent to Quarion and Samera was incorrect and I dropped the ball when it came to making sure they knew to correct the error. The release notes have been updated with correct prerequisites for the Spellsinger enhancement.

Freeman
07-18-2007, 01:40 PM
This one's my fault, sorry everyone.

As noted in the thread, Extend Spell was never a prereq for Spellsinger even on Risia, the patch note that I sent to Quarion and Samera was incorrect and I dropped the ball when it came to making sure they knew to correct the error. The release notes have been updated with correct prerequisites for the Spellsinger enhancement.

So any chance you can also tell us how long the songs are supposed to last?

Coldin
07-18-2007, 01:43 PM
It really makes sense that Extend isn't a pre-req though. Pretty much every bard has extend as a feat, so making it a pre-req choice essentially made it so every bard could pick up Spellsinger. But not every bard could pick up Virtuoso or Warchanter. This brings Spellsinger just a bit to the level of the other 2 enhancements.

Eladrin
07-18-2007, 01:50 PM
The beneficial bard enhancement songs last 60 seconds + 6 seconds per bard level, and should be improved by lingering song effects.

Coldin
07-18-2007, 01:51 PM
The beneficial bard enhancement songs last 60 seconds + 6 seconds per bard level, and should be improved by lingering song effects.

Ah, so that explains it!

Thanks Eladrin.

Freeman
07-18-2007, 01:53 PM
Thanks, Eladrin. Since they deviated from the other songs, we had no way to tell if the number was correct or not. Maybe now I'll actually have a shot at using up my songs :)

Freeman
07-18-2007, 02:01 PM
Edit: Weird. The post I was responding to was deleted :(

Cedrica-the-Bard
07-18-2007, 02:09 PM
The beneficial bard enhancement songs last 60 seconds + 6 seconds per bard level, and should be improved by lingering song effects.

You said "beneficial songs" however, my testing for the Virtuoso fascinate indicates the baddies fascinated by that stay fascinated about half the time as the regular fascinate. Can you confirm the formula also applies to the Virtuoso fascinate?

Freeman
07-18-2007, 02:13 PM
So the spellsinger bard i just rolled and powerleveled can't be a spellsinger unless i can find a perfect shard and an extra 10kpp to throw out?

Or you do the dragonmark quest.

Edit: Do I get bonus points for managing to ninja both Aeneas and my other post?

Aeneas
07-18-2007, 02:14 PM
So the spellsinger bard i just rolled and powerleveled can't be a spellsinger unless i can find a perfect shard and an extra 10kpp to throw out?

Freeman
07-18-2007, 02:15 PM
You said "beneficial songs" however, my testing for the Virtuoso fascinate indicates the baddies fascinated by that stay fascinated about half the time as the regular fascinate. Can you confirm the formula also applies to the Virtuoso fascinate?

From the numbers given with 40% extra from Lingering Song, it should last 3 minutes 21 seconds. How long does a regular fascinate last?(I don't usually see anything survive long enough to time it) Now, the question becomes whether Fascinate is considered a beneficial song. I wouldn't think so, since it doesn't buff the party, but Lingering Song has affected it in the past.

Cedrica-the-Bard
07-18-2007, 02:21 PM
From the numbers given with 40% extra from Lingering Song, it should last 3 minutes 21 seconds. How long does a regular fascinate last?(I don't usually see anything survive long enough to time it) Now, the question becomes whether Fascinate is considered a beneficial song. I wouldn't think so, since it doesn't buff the party, but Lingering Song has affected it in the past.

My Virtuoso fascinate lasted 1:50 before they broke and my regular fascinate lasts just under 3 minutes (thereabouts...). I have Lingering II.

Cedrica-the-Bard
07-18-2007, 02:25 PM
So the spellsinger bard i just rolled and powerleveled can't be a spellsinger unless i can find a perfect shard and an extra 10kpp to throw out?

You don't even have Mental Toughness? I would think that with 5 feats available to a pure Drow Bard, that or SF: Enchantment or Mental Toughness would easily be on your list of feats, at the very least.

But if not, yeah, you'll have to snag a shard and dish out some cash since you are Drow and can't get the freebie feat respect from the Dragonmark quest. (or can you?)

Freeman
07-18-2007, 02:28 PM
My Virtuoso fascinate lasted 1:50 before they broke and my regular fascinate lasts just under 3 minutes (thereabouts...). I have Lingering II.

What level bard are you?

Eladrin
07-18-2007, 02:30 PM
You said "beneficial songs" however, my testing for the Virtuoso fascinate indicates the baddies fascinated by that stay fascinated about half the time as the regular fascinate. Can you confirm the formula also applies to the Virtuoso fascinate?
I'll look into it. The enthrallment from the Virtuoso enhancement should last just as long as a fascinated enemy.

The Lingering Song enhancements are "Your beneficial songs last 20/40/60/80% longer than normal.", so really should only be affecting non-offensive songs. Fascinate is probably improperly flagged to gain the lingering song bonus. If that's so, we'll evaluate which behavior should be considered correct and update whichever one we decide should be wrong. I'm currently also looking into ways of having a character's Perform skill have an effect on your songs - it's likely that that will somehow play into song durations, so there's no need to panic about fascinate durations yet.

Coldin
07-18-2007, 02:34 PM
'm currently also looking into ways of having a character's Perform skill have an effect on your songs - it's likely that that will somehow play into song durations, so there's no need to panic about fascinate durations yet.

Oooo...if skill effected duration, every bard would be after +perform items.

Freeman
07-18-2007, 02:35 PM
I'll look into it. The enthrallment from the Virtuoso enhancement should last just as long as a fascinated enemy.

The Lingering Song enhancements are "Your beneficial songs last 20/40/60/80% longer than normal.", so really should only be affecting non-offensive songs. Fascinate is probably improperly flagged to gain the lingering song bonus. If that's so, we'll evaluate which behavior should be considered correct and update whichever one we decide should be wrong. I'm currently also looking into ways of having a character's Perform skill have an effect on your songs - it's likely that that will somehow play into song durations, so there's no need to panic about fascinate durations yet.

Sweet, perform might actually mean something in the game! Thanks for the info and posts to clear things up for us. Now, if we could just get some info on the Crippling Strike problem I'd be a happy camper :p

Aldmare
07-18-2007, 02:35 PM
I have both Warchanter and Spellsinger on my 2 bards, and the songs are being dispelled. Is this the way is was supposed to be? Inspire ... isn't, just curious.

Freeman
07-18-2007, 02:37 PM
I have both Warchanter and Spellsinger on my 2 bards, and the songs are being dispelled. Is this the way is was supposed to be? Inspire ... isn't, just curious.

If they are like most other bard buff songs, they should be considered supernatural abilities and enemy casters shouldn't be able to dispel them. It is probably just improperly flagged as a spell.

Cedrica-the-Bard
07-18-2007, 02:48 PM
What level bard are you?

My Virtuoso bard is 13 Bard/1 Fighter.
My Spellsinger bard is 14 Bard.

Cedrica-the-Bard
07-18-2007, 02:51 PM
I'll look into it. The enthrallment from the Virtuoso enhancement should last just as long as a fascinated enemy.

The Lingering Song enhancements are "Your beneficial songs last 20/40/60/80% longer than normal.", so really should only be affecting non-offensive songs. Fascinate is probably improperly flagged to gain the lingering song bonus. If that's so, we'll evaluate which behavior should be considered correct and update whichever one we decide should be wrong. I'm currently also looking into ways of having a character's Perform skill have an effect on your songs - it's likely that that will somehow play into song durations, so there's no need to panic about fascinate durations yet.

That's fabulous! Thanks so much for replying. :D

sergiok4
07-18-2007, 03:05 PM
Why in the world would these songs be different from other beneficial songs? And they could have changed the tune - the least they can do. I think the songs should all last the same and be affected by Lingering Song.

Aeneas
07-18-2007, 03:07 PM
My bard is fine. The complaint was a hypothetical one. Was hoping Eladrin or Q would see it and say to themselves, "you know what, we screwed up, why punish the players?"

Dragonhyde
07-18-2007, 03:12 PM
Has anyoneelse had there new "songs" dispelled? I was running desert explorer on my warchanter and had the new song up...when we encountered a scarrow that was tossing disspell like candy. Half the group lost the dr song immediately due to dispell. Anyone know if it is supposed to work that way:(

Aldmare
07-18-2007, 03:15 PM
The Warchanter and Spellsinger songs should not be able to be dispelled with Dispel Magic and the like.

Good, then we should expect a fix to that soon :)

Eladrin
07-18-2007, 03:15 PM
The Warchanter and Spellsinger songs should not be able to be dispelled with Dispel Magic and the like.

tihocan
07-18-2007, 03:16 PM
I'm currently also looking into ways of having a character's Perform skill have an effect on your songs - it's likely that that will somehow play into song durations, so there's no need to panic about fascinate durations yet.
What about fascinate's saving throw? It would be nice to know if it will be added in the near future (e.g. post as a known issue, just like you did for evasion), for those of us with a bard 1/other X who may want to rely on the 2 fascinate/rest.

Gadget2775
07-18-2007, 03:38 PM
But if not, yeah, you'll have to snag a shard and dish out some cash since you are Drow and can't get the freebie feat respect from the Dragonmark quest. (or can you?)

Drow get the free feat swap, they just don't have dragon marks to apply them to. I didn't have any reason to use it till now, but I've checked with Fred since completing the "Dragon Mark" quest and it does work.

EspyLacopa
07-18-2007, 03:57 PM
The Warchanter and Spellsinger songs should not be able to be dispelled with Dispel Magic and the like.

Does "like" include Velah's dispelling breath?

UtherSRG
07-18-2007, 03:59 PM
This seems to be one of those things that might have been caught were there to be better testing tools on Risia. I think I'm going to pull a Freeman and put that in my signature, though I doubt I could "first" as many posts as he does.

Ah yes, if we had our characters updated on Risia. would have been very helpful to have been able to know ahead of time that I'd not have the correct feat. Too bad Turbine doesn't want to invest the time involved in updating our characters, nor do they want to give extra XP on Risia, so they really don't want us using Risia as a test platform. Too bad. I would ahve found this bug very quickly.


Verified:
Purchased all prerequisite enhancements
Had extend spell metamagic feat

Could not purchase Spellsinger. Perhaps it was an issue with the UI, and had I bought the enhancements, finished, and got more enhancements, I could have got it. I doubt that, though.

Nope. I tried that.


This one's my fault, sorry everyone.

As noted in the thread, Extend Spell was never a prereq for Spellsinger even on Risia, the patch note that I sent to Quarion and Samera was incorrect and I dropped the ball when it came to making sure they knew to correct the error. The release notes have been updated with correct prerequisites for the Spellsinger enhancement.

FOUL! Boo! Hiss! Had this been so, I would have built my Drow Bard differently. Thanks for the waste of time.

Conejo
07-18-2007, 04:12 PM
As noted in the thread, Extend Spell was never a prereq for Spellsinger.

i think the bigger question here is: why the hell not?

Prinstoni
07-18-2007, 04:35 PM
I'm not sure how great it is I just reset my enhancements on my bard, and now i'm gonna have to reset again. For some reason it really goofed up my enhancements, so that my songs do not last very long. I took 2 of the lingering song feats too, so I guess I'll have to drop the extra spell point feat and +1 to hit from songs to get my songs longer. :(

Also the new spell that grants a +1 to hit. Ooooooh, When I saw that I thought great I'll cast that at the beggining of the quest and run the whole quest with it. Sorry nope. It's a L1 spell that lasts for 2 mins extended on a l14. BAH, that's just garbage!

Also Spell Slinger only lasts for about 3 mins. That's worthless... Ever try to slow down a party to get them to wait for you to play songs. Now your gonna try to play them songs every 3 mins. And whats with the same song sound....come on. I was hoping for a new sound. Also, the notes floating around affect was cool for about 5 mins. Now I think it is annoying (that should stop once a person moves and not come back until it is played again).

I'll have to switch that back out in 3 days.

MysticTheurge
07-18-2007, 04:42 PM
The Warchanter and Spellsinger songs should not be able to be dispelled with Dispel Magic and the like.

On that topic, all bard songs are Supernatural Abilities and therefore shouldn't function in an Antimagic Field (such as from a beholder's central eye).

Of course, neither should magic items or the beholder's own eyebeams. And it should suppress, not dispel, all of these things.

You guys ever going to fix Antimagic? One hopes you do so at least before players get the ability to create their own Antimagic Fields.

Freeman
07-18-2007, 05:00 PM
I'm not sure how great it is I just reset my enhancements on my bard, and now i'm gonna have to reset again. For some reason it really goofed up my enhancements, so that my songs do not last very long. I took 2 of the lingering song feats too, so I guess I'll have to drop the extra spell point feat and +1 to hit from songs to get my songs longer. :(

Also the new spell that grants a +1 to hit. Ooooooh, When I saw that I thought great I'll cast that at the beggining of the quest and run the whole quest with it. Sorry nope. It's a L1 spell that lasts for 2 mins extended on a l14. BAH, that's just garbage!

Also Spell Slinger only lasts for about 3 mins. That's worthless... Ever try to slow down a party to get them to wait for you to play songs. Now your gonna try to play them songs every 3 mins. And whats with the same song sound....come on. I was hoping for a new sound. Also, the notes floating around affect was cool for about 5 mins. Now I think it is annoying (that should stop once a person moves and not come back until it is played again).

I'll have to switch that back out in 3 days.

Focusing Chant is good for low levels, but like a lot of other first level spells, it loses its value as you gain levels.

The duration of the new songs is shorter than the old ones, but your normal songs should be the same duration as they were before. The floating notes will most likely get annoying soon. I'd suggest having them appear for 5 seconds or so around everyone affected, then go away. As for getting a party to wait for songs, I haven't had much problem with that before. Melee fighters always seem to want the attack buffs. And I don't think any spellcaster will turn down +1 to their DCs and -10% to their spell point cost. No smart one, at least. If not, just sing for yourself.

MysticTheurge
07-18-2007, 05:03 PM
Focusing Chant is good for low levels, but like a lot of other first level spells, it loses its value as you gain levels.

You know, except that it's a bonus that stacks with everything...

Freeman
07-18-2007, 05:06 PM
You know, except that it's a bonus that stacks with everything...

Yes, but for only one minute(Two extended) and a range of personal. Given the limited number of spell slots bards have, I think you would have to really need that +1 for something specific to make it worthwhile.

Gimpster
07-18-2007, 05:14 PM
Yes, but for only one minute(Two extended) and a range of personal. Given the limited number of spell slots bards have
The only two important level 1 bard spells are dance and hypno. Everything else is either mega-weak or can be cast just as well from wands. A high level bard has little contention for level 1 spell slots.

MysticTheurge
07-18-2007, 05:18 PM
Yes, but for only one minute(Two extended) and a range of personal. Given the limited number of spell slots bards have, I think you would have to really need that +1 for something specific to make it worthwhile.

What else are you going to put in that slot. Cause Fear and Sleep both have HD caps. CLW and SMI both become pretty useless at high levels. Detect Secret Doors is just as effective from a wand. Expeditious Retreat and Feather Fall are easily replicated by items. Fascinate is better than Hypnotism in pretty much all respects. Grease is mostly useless cause you'll get kicked out of parties for using it.

That leaves you Charm Person, Otto's and Focusing Chant. And you get four slots, so even if you disagree with one of the above assessments you can pick that up too.

Gimpster
07-18-2007, 05:29 PM
Grease is mostly useless cause you'll get kicked out of parties for using it.
Not if you cast FOM first.

EspyLacopa
07-18-2007, 05:36 PM
On that topic, all bard songs are Supernatural Abilities and therefore shouldn't function in an Antimagic Field (such as from a beholder's central eye).

Of course, neither should magic items or the beholder's own eyebeams. And it should suppress, not dispel, all of these things.

You guys ever going to fix Antimagic? One hopes you do so at least before players get the ability to create their own Antimagic Fields.

And while they're at it they can fix Spell Resistance.

Aldmare
07-18-2007, 05:42 PM
I took focus chant for 44 umd, ya 43 is pretty much the same as 44 since I will still sucede on a 1, but it's just nice to say. I also took it on my other bard because it gets my Fard (11 bard 3 fighter) to 37 atk self buffed, which is also nice.

Spookydodger
07-18-2007, 05:50 PM
I thank you for your answer, your honesty, and your integrity. You and Sparker are testiments of integrity within the confines of Turbine's walls. And you weren't cheeky about it. A bonus, to be sure.

Again, thanks.


This one's my fault, sorry everyone.

As noted in the thread, Extend Spell was never a prereq for Spellsinger even on Risia, the patch note that I sent to Quarion and Samera was incorrect and I dropped the ball when it came to making sure they knew to correct the error. The release notes have been updated with correct prerequisites for the Spellsinger enhancement.

Gimpster
07-18-2007, 05:56 PM
i think the bigger question here is: why the hell not?
Because it would be STUPID to let bards use Extend to qualify for spellsinger. When was the last time you met a bard (of level 8 or higher) who did not have Extend?

Conejo
07-18-2007, 06:03 PM
Because it would be STUPID to let bards use Extend to qualify for spellsinger. When was the last time you met a bard (of level 8 or higher) who did not have Extend?

honestly, you don't find it any more asinine than most of the arbitrary DDO things they've done.

Killbilly
07-18-2007, 06:30 PM
Because it would be STUPID to let bards use Extend to qualify for spellsinger. When was the last time you met a bard (of level 8 or higher) who did not have Extend?

I've known a couple who've held off until level 12. But your point stands.

Freeman
07-18-2007, 06:49 PM
That leaves you Charm Person, Otto's and Focusing Chant. And you get four slots, so even if you disagree with one of the above assessments you can pick that up too.

Well, Fascinate takes about 6 seconds to perform, while Hypnotism takes about .5 seconds, so it has been on my spell list since level 2. I also have Remove Fear. That would be the only one I might consider swapping out for Focusing Chant. To me, the attack bonus for Focusing Chant isn't that significant at level 14, even though it stacks. The skill bonus might be helpful now that I've gotten Spellsinger, since I think that would bump me up to something like +43. I may try it out at some point to see how I often I use it. If I find that I never bother casting it, then I can swap it for something else. I just wish we had a few more useful level one spells.

Cahira
07-18-2007, 10:42 PM
Because it would be STUPID to let bards use Extend to qualify for spellsinger. When was the last time you met a bard (of level 8 or higher) who did not have Extend?

Uhm...yeah...I just re-spec-ed for it today...and I've been capped for quite a while. When I was a young bard, I thought that Heighten would be the cat's meow for my CC bard.

However, since I seem to hit CC spells (w/o heighten) about as often as our wizard (who is a maxed INT drow) when he uses heighten, I determined that I didn't really need it. But being a procrastinator...I took my sweet time swapping it out. :D


Incidently, this brings up an interesting quirk.

I had the following feats:
Mental Toughness
Heighten
Spell Focus: Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Note that I had 4 of the feats (of which you only need one) that you can have for Spellsinger. I redid my enhancements and took Spellsinger. Then, I went and did the Dragonmark quest.

When I talked to Fred to swap Heighten for Extend, he took away my Spellsinger and refunded me 4 Action Points. This would be fine...if I no longer qualified for it...but I still had 3 of the prerequisite feats and only needed one.

So, I had to go back and take Spellsinger again. Not a big deal...but a bit of an inconvenience. So, I bug reported it. But I thought I'd share so that others could be aware of the quirk. :D

Dragonhyde
07-18-2007, 11:49 PM
As for leaving extend out I feel that is really bad since a bard does not get a lot of extra feats to play with anyway. But if thats the case then I hope when you start planning the enhancement subclasses for sorcs and mages that they are held to the same requirement difficulty as bards were. Warchanter= str 13 base then power attack and weapon focus
Spellsinger= Most metamagic feats except extend(because it is common)

So given that we were held to those types of prereqs I hope mages will have similar requirements such as maybe combat casting as a have to take feat and maximize/heighten are not on the lists. :p

Yvonne_Blacksword
07-19-2007, 12:44 PM
Magical training?
a "and one of the following" prereq?
I would take it but it wont let me..
I am so confused!!!
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
help!

at least I can take the power attack feat.

Is this a bug in my screen?

Why hasn't my bard been magically trained?

Freeman
07-19-2007, 01:04 PM
Magical training?
a "and one of the following" prereq?
I would take it but it wont let me..
I am so confused!!!
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
help!

at least I can take the power attack feat.

Is this a bug in my screen?

Why hasn't my bard been magically trained?

Magical Training is the feat that wizards, sorcs, and clerics get at first level that gives them bonus spell points. You can't actually take it as a feat while leveling. A bard that multi-classes into one of those would receive the feat for free.

Ken_Dorak
07-19-2007, 02:48 PM
Ok, so I get that the new songs for these enhancements weren't supposed to and don't last as long as the regular bard songs.

That I understand.

What I don't get, is why?

Why don't they last as long? What was the reasoning? Not really *****ing here, just curious.