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Snike
07-15-2007, 11:34 AM
This is specificly about the Precision feat, and possibly about the power attack feat.

I understand Precision halves base weapon damage with all it's modifiers but does not effect added elemental damage. Where does sneak attack fall in this, does it get halved or not. Asked in rogue forum but have seen both answers now.

Symar-FangofLloth
07-15-2007, 12:10 PM
I'd imagine it could fall either way, but I believe that since sneak attack damage is "extra" damage it would be applied in full.

Borror0
07-15-2007, 12:53 PM
I *think* it halves sneak attack too.

Snike
07-15-2007, 01:12 PM
Like I said I've heard both answers on this question. What gets me though, Why would one stance affect sneak attack but not another??

If Precision does halve sneak attack, why would power attack not double it?

Everyone seems to agree that power attack does not double it.

Guess I need to take this question up with WotC since no one seems to be sure here.

Symar-FangofLloth
07-15-2007, 01:26 PM
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-84512.html

Snike
07-15-2007, 01:42 PM
Awsome thanks Symar-FangofLloth. I just hope that translates into DDO implementing it correctly.

Granted this are not from DDO site but WotC:


Does the Power Attack bonus also multiplies in a critical hit?

Yes.

From the SRD:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Thats' the reason why you can't multiply, for example, the extra damage provided by a Sneak Attack.

Symar-FangofLloth
07-15-2007, 02:19 PM
Worst case scenario, it halves your sneak attack but you're still doing a lot more damage then any non-rogue using precision.

Snike
07-15-2007, 03:53 PM
Right but this build will be using precision 100% of the time, working off sneak attack damage along with burst damage or stat damage. Having precision 1/2 the sneak attack damage would not be acceptable.

Ekental
07-16-2007, 04:25 AM
Keep in mind rogues currently, even dual-wielding, get only 6 attacks/round, rather than the 7 of a TWF fighter.

With a dex build, assuming 20 str, you'll need full sneak attack dmg to keep up/overtake the fighter.

Rogues occupy a different spectrum in play style compared to fighters. Rangers fall in between. You don't have room for many mistakes as a rogue in combat.

Good Luck

KaKa
07-16-2007, 06:38 AM
Precision DOES half sneak attack damage. I really don't understand why there are mixed answers to this, I suspect it is because Tr0tsky is no longer with us. There was an old thread on this subject that I beleive no longer exists in which it was tested and verified. But hey if you really don't want to beleive me test it yourself shouldn't be too hard to notice if it is halfed or not.

Ekental
07-16-2007, 09:46 PM
yeah.. the elemental and misc mods aren't effected, but your going to get 1/2 dmg. Maybe that wasn't.. clear enough.

Snike
07-16-2007, 11:43 PM
Sorry even your repeated statement was not clear at all... do you not consider sneak attack as added modified damage? I know when I hit something it looks like 8 +26 +12, not 34 +12. You are not making it clear bacause you have never stated that you consider sneak attack damage as being regular old damage. Where as many people see it as being a added modifier because it's not part of the weapon's base damage, it's situational, and it is completely class based.


Keep in mind rogues currently, even dual-wielding, get only 6 attacks/round, rather than the 7 of a TWF fighter.

It's a 12/2 build and gets 7 attacks per round, not that it matters though, a good rogue could beat out a fighters 7 with 6 anyday and still be mistake free.

Snike
07-17-2007, 12:34 AM
But hey if you really don't want to beleive me test it yourself shouldn't be too hard to notice if it is halfed or not.

It's not about believing or not, it's about getting a definative answer for my build plan.

sigtrent
07-17-2007, 01:34 AM
Precision does halve sneak attack damage. It did not always do so, for a time it allowed full sneak attack damage. This was changed quite a while back though.

Precision can be quite useful at low levels or for characters with weak attack bonuses (my wizard/fighter uses it almost all the time)

But for someone who wants to do damage, it stinks, and even now for someone doing stat damage it has seriuous issues when faced with DR monsters, since you must deal HP damage to do the stat damage.

Its best use is low bab characters that want to be accurate with effect weapons like paralyzers and vorpals. At low level the elemental effects are pretty nice as well, but that really pales at the higher levels.

My recomendation.. don't take precision on any character that is decent at fighting without it. It is best for a character that hardly does damage in the first place but wants to be abble to land attacks. I've had it on a few characters and got rid of it on all but my wiz/ftr who is dex based and has a low bab. Still, now at higher levels I'm considering re-specing it.

Snike
07-17-2007, 01:56 AM
But for someone who wants to do damage, it stinks, and even now for someone doing stat damage it has seriuous issues when faced with DR monsters, since you must deal HP damage to do the stat damage.

Does anyone know if DR is applied after the sneak attack is added in like it is in PnP? If it were the case then Precision for stat damage would still be nice if you wanted to lower aggro while ensuring the ever hit lands. It seems the way people talk about it, it does not.

So sneak attack damage counts as base damage for precision's 1/2 purposes but does not for stat damaging purposes vs. DR. Seems like a fair DM to me... (sarcasm)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a


A successful sneak attack increases the damage dealt. When you make a sneak attack against a foe with damage reduction, roll the sneak damage and add it to the damage from the hit before applying the effects of damage reduction.

Snike
07-17-2007, 06:57 AM
Never mind dug around for the last couple hours and found this.
http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95860

Multiple DEV quotes combined into:


The following weapon effects will no longer be applied to monsters unless the damage of the attack penetrates the monster’s Damage Reduction for at least one point of damage.
Slicing
Wounding
Maladroit
Weakening
Weighted (Stun Chance)
Tendon Slice
1) The base damage of the weapon including strength bonus, enhancement bonus and any Sneak Attack damage needs to penetrate the monster's DR for the listed effects to be applied.
2) Smiting and any other effect other than the ones listed is not affected by this change.
3) The OnCritical versions of the listed effects do not require penetrating DR to take effect.

So I'm not quite sure why people would think Precision is not good for stat damaging vs. DR mobs as a rogue. We actually have a pretty goodchance to break DR once we have 7d6 Sneak dice, even at 1/2 damage. Our sneak attack damage should be triggering these effects. Is this not the case? Definately a feat I will be waiting on taking till 15 or 18 though when I will have many more sneak dice.

sigtrent
07-17-2007, 11:35 AM
So I'm not quite sure why people would think Precision is not good for stat damaging vs. DR mobs as a rogue. We actually have a pretty goodchance to break DR once we have 7d6 Sneak dice, even at 1/2 damage. Our sneak attack damage should be triggering these effects. Is this not the case? Definately a feat I will be waiting on taking till 15 or 18 though when I will have many more sneak dice.

A pretty decent number of creatures with DR can't be sneak attacked.. of course a fair number of those can't be stat damaged either...

I'm telling you though, you probably won't need precision and if you don't need it, its pointless to take it. Unless for some reason you build your rogue without any Str or Dex you won't have a hard time hitting monsters, especialy at the upper levels of the game. If anything precision is most usefull at the lower end of the game where a dex based character doesn't have weapon finesse yet or the like. Now if you were a wizard rogue or something like that, Precision would probably help out.

It is pretty much easy to hit monsters in the upper levels, especialy when you are in a full group and there are people buffing you. (and you pretty much have to group at upper levels)

Ekental
07-17-2007, 07:33 PM
Couple Notes:

12/2 wont get crippling strike, which is fairly nice, a good set of weakening/enfeebling weapons can make a monster helpless. I.E. "Kardin" and his mindflayer cadre, on elite, have all of 10 str.

Unless your other dmg companion (fighter/ranger/other rogue, etc) is using dual-stat dmgers or a big 5 weapon to get their kills. You should have few problems keeping aggro off yourself, between subtle backstabbing and diplomacy.

As for hitting, looks like that's been covered.