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View Full Version : subscription should be free, and we should pay for expansions every 3 months or so...



gelgoog
07-13-2007, 04:21 PM
you want to put the game in the public eye, well make the expansions full of cool stuff, gear and missions for a price. it's back on shelves in stores and word of mouth goes around.

if it was a free monthly service to play we would have a boatload more people playing of course.

i say this cause i am amazed at how many people play guild wars. myself included. this past weekend they had a festival event which was cool had goofy beatle racing and such. but there was 100 instances for this town where it was held.....100! i warped to another city where i had to do a mission far away from the event and still there were people in that city only 2 instances, but still not a ghost town.

i love ddo. no other mmorpg out there with this combat system which i like. but if it was free to play and with paid expansions we would see more from devs, more content, more fixes and more players.

/shrug

Roguewiz
07-13-2007, 04:37 PM
you want to put the game in the public eye, well make the expansions full of cool stuff, gear and missions for a price. it's back on shelves in stores and word of mouth goes around.

if it was a free monthly service to play we would have a boatload more people playing of course.

i say this cause i am amazed at how many people play guild wars. myself included. this past weekend they had a festival event which was cool had goofy beatle racing and such. but there was 100 instances for this town where it was held.....100! i warped to another city where i had to do a mission far away from the event and still there were people in that city only 2 instances, but still not a ghost town.

i love ddo. no other mmorpg out there with this combat system which i like. but if it was free to play and with paid expansions we would see more from devs, more content, more fixes and more players.

/shrug

While I can see where you are coming from, let me point a few things out:

1st. Guild Wars is operated by NCSoft. NCSoft has the financial backing to maintain a game for free, and only make money off paid expansions at 50$ a pop. The content in Guild Wars goes fast. The main "meat", if you will, is PvP. That is a good portion of their player base. With their competitions and such, they maintain a healthy player base.

2nd. Marketing an expansion takes money, and alot more time. In order to maintain DDO, Turbine would honestly need an expansion every 2-3 months, on the dot, without delay. That's alot of content which is hard to code, not to mention, test. In all honesty, an expansion should supply a casual gamer with enough content to last them 5-6 months. This philosophy has worked in the past for other games. Hardcore games will grind through content, quickly, regardless on how tough it is. So, figuring them into the equation would be a waste of time. (I consider myself a hardcore gamer, so, I know where I am coming from). The content DDO releases barely lasts 1 month with casual gamers. Just imagine what we hardcore gamers do to content like that. ;)

3rd. Because of the cost associated with running the servers and such, Turbine would not have the financial backing to do so. They only have one big hitting out there, by the name of Lord of the Rings Online, and it is relatively new. What other games does Turbine have under their belt that they are making enough money to justify making DDO free-to-play?


In all honesty, it would be a bad move on Turbine's part to make this game free-to-play. They have enough problems as is getting content out that isn't buggy. If they were put under pressure to have an expansion out really quick, and efficiently, they would lose their players.

gelgoog
07-13-2007, 05:04 PM
i think if the devs had more time to develop the expansions they would be less buggy.

maybe they don't have the money to make it ftp, but if its a good game people will come and buy the expansions.

the pvp in guild wars is very popular but also the pve in guildwars is as well.
i still haven't completed that much in the 3 main storys, first game, factions and nightfall. i'm a casual gamer i would say but a payin one at that.
you are a hardcore gamer a payin one at that. content will always be beaten quicker with the hardcores then the casuals, especially with ddo.

but if they put in a bunch of high level content and such for the hardcores, heck maybe a hardcore setting in the dungeons that is a lot harder then elite.
then maybe you hardcores will have something to do lol.

but if it was free to play i think the game would just be better cause of more people playin it.....since it is a group based game.

in the future they will have guild halls and crafting so more time sink things to do.

but to get people free to play would be nice.

and if you want to make money you have to spend money.
get more investors in your product and if the product is good it works out.
but with more investors means more ........ideas..from them ugh. lol

i don't know i just love how i can always play guildwars and know that it will be there for like another 5 years at least. whereas ddo i hope will last another year.

Symar-FangofLloth
07-13-2007, 05:11 PM
So... you want no subscription fee, yet want to pay for everything that comes out? Well, if you packed 2 or 3 modules together to have a "bigger" expansion every 3 months or so, and you paid $40-$50 for it, you'd be paying the exact same amount you are now, or more if you pay more than one month at a time.
What's the point of this ? :confused: :confused: :confused:

gelgoog
07-13-2007, 05:15 PM
more players playing the game.
and a more stable update with the expansion.
would grab players to play the game since it's free to play.
the expansions are just that expansions you can either choose to buy or not.
you just wouldn't get all the uber gear. but if you play casually it won't matter that much. hardcore well you get the uber stuff if you want it with the expansion.

/shrug

Cendaer
07-13-2007, 10:35 PM
you want to put the game in the public eye, well make the expansions full of cool stuff, gear and missions for a price. it's back on shelves in stores and word of mouth goes around.

if it was a free monthly service to play we would have a boatload more people playing of course.

i say this cause i am amazed at how many people play guild wars. myself included. this past weekend they had a festival event which was cool had goofy beatle racing and such. but there was 100 instances for this town where it was held.....100! i warped to another city where i had to do a mission far away from the event and still there were people in that city only 2 instances, but still not a ghost town.

i love ddo. no other mmorpg out there with this combat system which i like. but if it was free to play and with paid expansions we would see more from devs, more content, more fixes and more players.

/shrug

If I had to pay $40-50 every three months, that would amount to me paying more per year for expansions, than I do now for 12 months worth of month-to-month subscription fees. I don't see how that would be any better than what we have now.

In regards to your comments about all the people you saw playing guild wars, I must ask: How many of the people in those 100 instances of that town did you actually play the game with, or socialize with? Sure there might be tons of people logged on, but I really don't see the benefit of having that many people, since you can really only play or interact with a mere handful of them.

"More" does not necessarily always mean "better," unless maybe you're a plat-farmer.

gelgoog
07-13-2007, 11:48 PM
this is mearly a suggestion about the free to play for ddo nothing more.
so please don't go calling me a platfarmer for wanting more people playing ddo. a game that i enjoy playing. i am not a platfarmer.

as per price i never said a price for the expansions.
if i were, the price wouldn't exceed $34.99
the expansions are not needed to enjoy the game as long as you have the primary game.
if you get the expansions you get more content/gear for your exsiting account.
there would still be free small updates for everyone for perfomance and fixes.

as for the people i socialize/grouped with in guildwars during that event. well there is good amount i did. in guild wars when you type for general chat a bubble appears above your head so you always now who says what. and for some reason one town always is talkin about real life politics...odd really.

being that a group of 8 people per mission can team up. it creates more people to choose to team with. thats where more people come into play.
more people the more chances arise to team with and socialize with them.

*More* is better for mmorpgs.....the more people playing the happier the company that runs it.
the more subscriptions to ddo there are the longer the game will last. as i see it now it will not last long unless they do something other then bring monks/druids, guild halls, and crafting and some expanded content.
my hopes is for the game to last for like 3-4 more years...but i fear it will only last one year from now.

/shrug

Sojourner
07-14-2007, 12:22 AM
It's a valid payment strategy. Especially for a niche game like DDO. Guild Wars and Anarchy Online are both doing fairly well with. Anarchy has been out for 6 or 7 years, with only 4 expansions, and have about the same number of players as DDO.

One thing it definitely does, is bring in the new players. For some, thats good, for others, not so much.

WilbyZ
07-14-2007, 12:22 AM
Huh? Come again?

Shecky
07-14-2007, 07:36 AM
What use is having more players if they aren't paying? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Vinos
07-14-2007, 08:08 AM
this is mearly a suggestion about the free to play for ddo nothing more.
so please don't go calling me a platfarmer for wanting more people playing ddo. a game that i enjoy playing. i am not a platfarmer.

as per price i never said a price for the expansions.
if i were, the price wouldn't exceed $34.99
the expansions are not needed to enjoy the game as long as you have the primary game.
if you get the expansions you get more content/gear for your exsiting account.
there would still be free small updates for everyone for perfomance and fixes.

/shrug

So if my guildie didn't buy the expansion and I did and I want to do a quest that came with the expansion and he can't do it how is that enjoying the game without buying expansions. Your logic is flawed.

Sojourner
07-14-2007, 08:54 AM
What use is having more players if they aren't paying? :confused: :confused: :confused:

A percentage of them are paying, and are paying for expansions every so often.

Shecky
07-14-2007, 09:09 AM
A percentage of them are paying, and are paying for expansions every so often.

How often? Twice a year? Twice a year at $50 a pop (which is often more than a lot of people are able to pay at one shot) is $100/year. $15/month x 12 months = $180. Yeah, it's more in the long run, but it's also better for the same reason that people take loans out to buy cars instead of buying them outright - putting out a little bit regularly is easier than cleaning out the bank once for most people.

MysticTheurge
07-14-2007, 09:17 AM
How often? Twice a year? Twice a year at $50 a pop (which is often more than a lot of people are able to pay at one shot) is $100/year. $15/month x 12 months = $180. Yeah, it's more in the long run, but it's also better for the same reason that people take loans out to buy cars instead of buying them outright - putting out a little bit regularly is easier than cleaning out the bank once for most people.

You're not comparing the difference between 15 dollars a month vs. 50 dollars in one go to 100-200 dollars a month vs. 15-20 thousand dollars in one go, are you?

There's a pretty distinct difference. In one situation chances are you don't have the money to pay a lump sum for the product in question. That's hardly the case in the other.

I think it could be an interesting model. And I think it might help with some of our content woes. If you think about it, having a little bit of content every month probably makes you feel like, overall, there's less content than you'd feel if you got a (really) big infusion of content every three months.

I do think, though, that it's probably too late to do this for DDO at this point. Switching from a (mostly) monthly release schedule a quarterly one would leave too many people feeling like they'd downgraded or were slacking off.

Shecky
07-14-2007, 09:20 AM
How often? Twice a year? Twice a year at $50 a pop (which is often more than a lot of people are able to pay at one shot) is $100/year. $15/month x 12 months = $180. Yeah, it's more in the long run, but it's also better for the same reason that people take loans out to buy cars instead of buying them outright - putting out a little bit regularly is easier than cleaning out the bank once for most people.


You're not comparing the difference between 15 dollars a month vs. 50 dollars in one go to 100-200 dollars a month vs. 15-20 thousand dollars in one go, are you?

There's a pretty distinct difference. In one situation chances are you don't have the money to pay a lump sum for the product in question. That's hardly the case in the other.

I think it could be an interesting model. And I think it might help with some of our content woes. If you think about it, having a little bit of content every month probably makes you feel like, overall, there's less content than you'd feel if you got a (really) big infusion of content every three months.

I do think, though, that it's probably too late to do this for DDO at this point. Switching from a (mostly) monthly release schedule a quarterly one would leave too many people feeling like they'd downgraded or were slacking off.

See the highlighted in my own quote above - although the degree is very different, the concept is the same. Very much the case.

I have nothing against your proposal for quarterly release per se. However, knowing a lot of the population of this game as we do, can you honestly say it'll take the "professional" (i.e., most free waking hours spent playing) gamers here that much longer to finish all the new content practically as soon as it comes out? Then they're left with 2 to 2 1/2 months of twiddling their thumbs and proclaiming their boredom, instead of 2-3 weeks. Not a bad idea, but one that does NOT fit with the psyche of far too many gamers. :/ *shrug*

MysticTheurge
07-14-2007, 09:27 AM
See the highlighted in my own quote above - although the degree is very different, the concept is the same. Very much the case.

I don't know. Call me crazy, but it seems like people who can afford 15 dollars a month could probably afford 50 dollars twice or three times a year.

Heck, it's pretty darn easy to take 15 dollars a month and put it in a jar for three months and have your 50 dollars.

Sojourner
07-14-2007, 04:09 PM
How often? Twice a year?

Anarchy has done 4 releases in 6 or 7 years. They manage quite well to keep the game running with a similar number of players as DDO using that model.

So, a partial play-for-free game doesn't have to push pay-for-them expansions any faster than a regular MMO.

One of the main differences I think is that if you play the base game, you play for free. If you play in any of the expansion areas, you have to buy the expansion as well as have a paid subscription.

So, some majority percentage of players are paying subscription customers who run in whatever expansions they've bought. But, there is also a significant number of "froobs" (freebie noobs) who only play on the original content for free.


Want to try the game out? Run the original content for free.
Regular player who's a bit short on cash? Let your paid subscription lapse for a couple months until you can get back into it again. But, at least you can continue to play the original game.
Regular playing customer? No noticeable difference other than increased number of players that are around if you're running the Harbor/Market/Desert/Gianthold (Freebie) areas.



Not sure I'm strongly asking for a free-play model for DDO - just trying to point out how it is possible.

lokomski
07-14-2007, 05:25 PM
Were DDO free to play more people may join, yes. However, how would Turbine pay all their coders and in-game gms that have promplty assisted me? I find this is a team oriented game, just as the old tabletop beginnings were. When I sit back and look for a team to join I do sometimes wait a long time to find others. When I step up to the plate and take leadership I find no problem finding teammates quickly. Free subscription is not necessary to get players to join and make teams easier to find. The players are there; go get 'em! Free subscription may also diminish the outstanding quality I see herein as the developers rush to create content for screaming mobs. Regular subscription rates may also help keep out some of those attitudes that drive some to name characters "Spank Me" and "Sexy Kitty". I must say I am even impressed with the intellect the children subscribers show.

Shrazkil
07-14-2007, 05:30 PM
While I can see where you are coming from, let me point a few things out:


3rd. Because of the cost associated with running the servers and such, Turbine would not have the financial backing to do so. They only have one big hitting out there, by the name of Lord of the Rings Online, and it is relatively new. What other games does Turbine have under their belt that they are making enough money to justify making DDO free-to-play?




Then perhaps they need to get off their laurals and only have like 4 servers, 6 at the maximum, then perhaps they wouldnt have such costs.

Conejo
07-14-2007, 06:47 PM
so instead of paying 30/month (2 subscriptions) for near-montly content, you want me to wait and pay $100 every three months?

no thanks, i'm fine with paying $90 for three months.

Thrudh
07-14-2007, 06:57 PM
I think it could be an interesting model. And I think it might help with some of our content woes. If you think about it, having a little bit of content every month probably makes you feel like, overall, there's less content than you'd feel if you got a (really) big infusion of content every three months.


Personally I really like the little bit of content every month (mostly - bit delayed this time). That's something to look forward to every month! I like that a lot better than nothing for 5-6 months then one big update.

Cyr
07-14-2007, 10:11 PM
Got to say that the monthly release schedule feels quarterly to me...The inbetween updates are laughable many times (LOTD1 & 2) and often contain very few new dungeons (which is content in DDO, not a new feat or enhancment line which should be very very easy to code). Honestly, guys you really think the monthly updates save the big ones every 3 months keep us "power gamers" busy for more than four-five hours, because they don't and they will not unless more quality high level dungeons are released during the monthly updates.

So the difference between a paid expansion and a monthly fee to me mostly looks like the difference between the game having a nice chance to have a new box out on shelves every couple months to attract new players or to have lame loot weekends to pull in new players which I think everyone can agree on is not a substainable strategy, game wise or marketing wise.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-14-2007, 10:19 PM
I don't know. Call me crazy, but it seems like people who can afford 15 dollars a month could probably afford 50 dollars twice or three times a year.

Heck, it's pretty darn easy to take 15 dollars a month and put it in a jar for three months and have your 50 dollars.

Actually that's not easy for everyone. The reason stores can charge 30% interest on selling you furniture is that many people can't come up with a single payment but can more easily budget a few dollars a month.

MysticTheurge
07-14-2007, 11:08 PM
Actually that's not easy for everyone. The reason stores can charge 30% interest on selling you furniture is that many people can't come up with a single payment but can more easily budget a few dollars a month.

Ok, but again, those places are talking purchases of 1000+ dollars at a time that are payed off over a year or more. I doubt you'll find many people that actually finance things over three month periods (aside from people who just live on credit cards and are serially charging just about everything to them, that's a whole different problem and they probably shouldn't be paying for DDO in the first place).

I mean I don't want to seem inconsiderate, but really. I bought my furniture on a credit card and got a car loan for my car, so it's not like I don't fit into the categories you're describing. But the difference between 15 dollars a month and 50 dollars every three months seems beyond negligible to me.

Especially if you know it's happening. Get a jar. Label it your "DDO Expansions" jar. Now every month put 15 dollars in it. Then when the new expansion comes out take your jar to Best Buy (or your FLVGS) and buy the expansion.

(Now, if you're doing a yearly subscription and so you're not actually paying 15 dollars a month and then you have a legitimate complaint since your price would probably actually be going up. But that's really a different matter, since, in that case, you clearly have the money to pay in a lump sum payment.)

Shecky
07-15-2007, 09:24 PM
I don't know. Call me crazy, but it seems like people who can afford 15 dollars a month could probably afford 50 dollars twice or three times a year.

Heck, it's pretty darn easy to take 15 dollars a month and put it in a jar for three months and have your 50 dollars.

Oh, I agree. Yet it so often seems to be the case that people who constantly spend X, day after day after day on unnecessary things, somehow don't seem able to scrape up 3x 1/3 as often. Saving doesn't seem to be much of a priority any more - money is just burning a hole in people's pockets that much more quickly. :)

Anyway, Sojourner: 4 releases in 6-7 years? I don't think even I'd stick around this game for more than a year without new stuff. A bit more every month or two is more my speed - and I realize that others may not feel that way, yet I suspect the median patience around here isn't exactly tip-top. :D

Sojourner
07-15-2007, 09:42 PM
Anyway, Sojourner: 4 releases in 6-7 years? I don't think even I'd stick around this game for more than a year without new stuff. A bit more every month or two is more my speed - and I realize that others may not feel that way, yet I suspect the median patience around here isn't exactly tip-top. :D


I probably worded it wrong, 4 "paid expansions", which works out to be about 1 every year and a half or so. Which, if mod 6 is a paid expansion, is also right about the same frequency we'd have here.

AO does have normal patches, updates, and releases every so often (too lazy to actually look up their schedule). But, not near as much each month as DDO puts out. I do have to hand it to the DDO devs - the game is seriously lacking content, but at least they're doing pretty good at cranking out something new about every month or so.

Shecky
07-16-2007, 05:56 AM
I probably worded it wrong, 4 "paid expansions", which works out to be about 1 every year and a half or so. Which, if mod 6 is a paid expansion, is also right about the same frequency we'd have here.

AO does have normal patches, updates, and releases every so often (too lazy to actually look up their schedule). But, not near as much each month as DDO puts out. I do have to hand it to the DDO devs - the game is seriously lacking content, but at least they're doing pretty good at cranking out something new about every month or so.

Which is precisely the point - so many people are upset because Turbine missed the "regularly scheduled" June update, but it is an exception. Turbine's been pretty good about putting out new content just about every month ever since they had gone a couple of months without doing so, and June was just a discontinuity.

That being said, I do have to say that I wouldn't be opposed to paid expansions every so often... as long as they were able to continue with the every-month-or-two schedule. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt they'd be able to do both - it's obviously been a big job just keeping the trickle going. And the trickle has been working well for a long time, as evinced by this recent rise in the "natives are getting restless" factor over the fact that they missed June. :/ Patience just isn't considered a virtue in this world. :D

CSFurious
07-16-2007, 06:02 AM
this is not your private "sandbox"

all of those people that you cannot play with simply insure the financial future of the franchise that you are playing which is better for your game


If I had to pay $40-50 every three months, that would amount to me paying more per year for expansions, than I do now for 12 months worth of month-to-month subscription fees. I don't see how that would be any better than what we have now.

In regards to your comments about all the people you saw playing guild wars, I must ask: How many of the people in those 100 instances of that town did you actually play the game with, or socialize with? Sure there might be tons of people logged on, but I really don't see the benefit of having that many people, since you can really only play or interact with a mere handful of them.

"More" does not necessarily always mean "better," unless maybe you're a plat-farmer.

Shecky
07-17-2007, 09:31 AM
this is not your private "sandbox"

all of those people that you cannot play with simply insure the financial future of the franchise that you are playing which is better for your game

Let me respond with a censored quote from Dennis Miller:


I don't care how cheap it is, 2 for 1 or whatever - 2 of junk is still junk.

Quality ALWAYS > quantity.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-17-2007, 09:41 AM
Got to say that the monthly release schedule feels quarterly to me...The inbetween updates are laughable many times (LOTD1 & 2) and often contain very few new dungeons (which is content in DDO, not a new feat or enhancment line which should be very very easy to code). Honestly, guys you really think the monthly updates save the big ones every 3 months keep us "power gamers" busy for more than four-five hours, because they don't and they will not unless more quality high level dungeons are released during the monthly updates.
.


The enhancement change was fairly fundimental I doubt it was an easy code.

Nothing will keep power gamers happy in terms of content. If you finished GH up in "4-5 hours" you would have finished 3 months of updates in 12-15 hours so what's the point. I still don't even have GH on elite on all my chars and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Ken_Dorak
07-17-2007, 10:55 AM
i think if the devs had more time to develop the expansions they would be less buggy.


I think if they had more development budgeted towards DDO, including adding additional team members to handle more workload, it would be more beneficial.