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Atreeson
07-13-2007, 01:37 PM
Now I know there are many of you out there that hate PVP because you feel it's either an "ego boost", or a "waste of time", or something else to that nonsense. But here is the way I see it - We all pay to play the game, therefore we all have an equal right to do whatever we wish in the game, so why shouldn't PvP be more of a part of the game? There are many on Thelanis (server I play on obviously) I know that would appreciate more dynamics to the game, other than bangin the same quests over and over again for more uber loot, so you can use that uber loot to do those quests again in hopes of more uber loot. Or, you could get loot so you can hold your own in the PvP arena. Why shouldn't we use PvP as a use of tactics, contents, and even as an overall show of fighting skill? The fighting system in this game is such where you can be as good as you want to be, as in physically dodge spells and attacks, even if you have a crappy AC, if you're quick enough, you can be a lot better than what you appear. If we had some way to put the PvP system to use other than just tavern brawls and team battles (which NO one does because it hardly ever works), like a battle grounds, or even an entire server for PvP where the only safe points were the taverns, I think it would add a whole new dynamic and perspective on the game, and since it would be on its own server, only the people that WANT to be there, shall. I just don't think we need to do away with a part of the game that WOULD have existed, had Eberron actually been a real place and time.

But anyway, I think for a more realistic sense, more calling of skill, and overall, more satisfying (in my opinion), we need come together and speak up about our thoughts on PvP (excluding the people against it because you all say the same **** like a broken record) so we can bring a new exciting part to the game without hardly changing anything. Just think about it, dont be closed minded.

------------------
Thelanis
Ex- Vagabond Member


Long Live Shinarel!

Albel
07-13-2007, 01:48 PM
Well I can't say much about the current PvP system as I was never interested in it (not opposed, just not interested), but I would like to see a server fully dedicated to PvP in the style you suggest, with only the taverns being the safe zones. Now obviously this isn't going to work very well when some lvl 14 starts camping the tavern exits so that nobody low level can even get out, so I would suggest that you can only PvP those in a certain level range from you maybe 2 levels on either side (so a level 10 could only fight others lvl 8-12). Also there would have to be some way to stop yourself from being targetted as a PvP-er when running to a quest because even though it is a PvP server you will be running quests and I would be really ****ed if half the party was trapped in taverns unable to leave because they keep dying everytime they step outside.

Just a couple thoughts I had, I'll post later if I think of more to say.

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 01:53 PM
Aye there could be other safe zones, even have level 1-3 zone, 4-6, 7-10, 11-14. Then there could even be a wide open battlegrounds for anyone where it would be wise to travel in groups.. Could even have mobs in the battlegrounds to kill. Also, I know in DAoC (dark age of camelot) you have to reach a certain level before you can be touched by anyone else. So maybe say level 1 you're safe till you hit level 2. There are so many different ways it can be done tho.

Gadget2775
07-13-2007, 01:53 PM
I'm not a huge fan of PvP...It just never really hooked me. I would however love to see the PvP system in DDO given a drastic overhaul. There are quite a few examples out there to borrow ideas (read starting points) from. Most notably in my experience, Guild Wars...Their Battle Isles, vasly differing arenas and various PvP games are incredible. I'm not advocating a whole sale rip off (I can go play GW any time I want for free if I want their PvP system)...Just that looking at their system might be a good place to pull some starting points for expanding our current pvp.

Frankenbard
/sing Xun Xun Xun

VoltaicLime
07-13-2007, 02:01 PM
Putting PvP into DDO is the second worst, well... maybe third worst decision by the devs. The other two things are the lack of a dressing room for previewing armor and weapon graphics and the third is the absolutely horrible UI.

KristovK
07-13-2007, 02:32 PM
I've got nothing against PvP...in games designed for it, which DDO is clearly not. PnP isn't designed for PvP either, and that shows whenever you try to do PvP in PnP gaming.

This is yet another thread recently created to try and get something done to make PvP more...and the devs have stated that ain't gonna happen. Wasn't part of the original design plans, wasn't in release, was added ONLY after much whining and complaining by a VERY vocal minority and some bad reviews by idiots who only think an online game is good if people can kill each other. At that time, it was stated, this is what you get, a place to kill each other and a few different ways of doing it, have fun, enjoy, this is ALL you will get. They did a little bit of work with PvP right after it was added...making it so it didn't tear up your gear, but that's been it.

Want PvP, go play something else actually designed for and advertising it's PvP.

Vinos
07-13-2007, 02:47 PM
PvP isn't going to change much in DDO. Not meant for this game. Besides I question those who think PvP proves you're "skilled" It proves you can click a mouse button faster and have uber gear or a cheesy spell you spam. Fascinate and scorching ray springs to mind.

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 02:57 PM
Hah. Fascinate and scorching ray? Try good will save and speed, and a vicious maul of greater elf bane, which i know most of you casters are, and you're gone in 2-3, sometimes 4 hits. come on Thelanis and try that to my toon Sturmcrow Locke. I guarantee you, you shall have a difficult time. Mark my words.
And as far as you saying it requires no skill, try spring attack with a two handed weapon. It changes the way you can deal dps with a weapon if you're good enough. And by saying it requires no skill implies that you have no knowledge of the way pvp can really be, so I would suggest you try it more often.

Shecky
07-13-2007, 03:03 PM
Hah. Fascinate and scorching ray? Try good will save and speed, and a vicious maul of greater elf bane, which i know most of you casters are, and you're gone in 2-3, sometimes 4 hits. come on Thelanis and try that to my toon Sturmcrow Locke. I guarantee you, you shall have a difficult time. Mark my words.
And as far as you saying it requires no skill, try spring attack with a two handed weapon. It changes the way you can deal dps with a weapon if you're good enough. And by saying it requires no skill implies that you have no knowledge of the way pvp can really be, so I would suggest you try it more often.

/trip
/stunning blow
/carve the turkey

:D

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 03:05 PM
+1 anarchic morningstar of greater dwarf bane, shield, 30 fort save, 30 balance, 340hp with 45 ac.. not happenin that easy Shecky :).. not to mention 36 str.. not too bad for a drow

Shecky
07-13-2007, 03:08 PM
+1 anarchic morningstar of greater dwarf bane, shield, 30 fort save, 30 balance, 340hp with 45 ac.. not happenin that easy Shecky :).. not to mention 36 str.. not too bad for a drow

Ahh, I've tripped and stunned bigger giant poos than you! :p

...see? Now THIS is how PvP is s'posed to go! :)

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 03:09 PM
It just my opinion of course, but I think anything that increases player/player interaction (including PVP, crafting, guilds, etc.) is a good thing. Player interaction goes a long way in keeping people interested in playing an MMO, IMO, even when there isn't enough 'content' to the game to keep people busy. I DON'T think its appropriate to add PvP such that people who don't enjoy it get attacked as they are walking around town going from quest to quest. Nor do I think it appropriate to go into a quest where your party members can kill you (Imagine getting blasted while in your loading screen to enter a quest). It should be something that is completely voluntary, gives no rewards or xp, but solely exists as a thing for interested people to do as they wait for new 'content' to be added. Just my opinion of course...

-HumanRogue

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 03:12 PM
Ahh, I've tripped and stunned bigger giant poos than you! :p

...see? Now THIS is how PvP is s'posed to go! :)


Hah. You still would be sadly mistaken. I assure you.

Shecky
07-13-2007, 03:17 PM
Hah. You still would be sadly mistaken. I assure you.

Hey, whatever lets you sleep at night. ;)

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 03:18 PM
Same could be said for you by myself. :)

joker965
07-13-2007, 03:22 PM
Now I know there are many of you out there that hate PVP because you feel it's either an "ego boost", or a "waste of time", or something else to that nonsense. But here is the way I see it - We all pay to play the game, therefore we all have an equal right to do whatever we wish in the game, so why shouldn't PvP be more of a part of the game? There are many on Thelanis (server I play on obviously) I know that would appreciate more dynamics to the game, other than bangin the same quests over and over again for more uber loot, so you can use that uber loot to do those quests again in hopes of more uber loot. Or, you could get loot so you can hold your own in the PvP arena. Why shouldn't we use PvP as a use of tactics, contents, and even as an overall show of fighting skill? The fighting system in this game is such where you can be as good as you want to be, as in physically dodge spells and attacks, even if you have a crappy AC, if you're quick enough, you can be a lot better than what you appear. If we had some way to put the PvP system to use other than just tavern brawls and team battles (which NO one does because it hardly ever works), like a battle grounds, or even an entire server for PvP where the only safe points were the taverns, I think it would add a whole new dynamic and perspective on the game, and since it would be on its own server, only the people that WANT to be there, shall. I just don't think we need to do away with a part of the game that WOULD have existed, had Eberron actually been a real place and time.

But anyway, I think for a more realistic sense, more calling of skill, and overall, more satisfying (in my opinion), we need come together and speak up about our thoughts on PvP (excluding the people against it because you all say the same **** like a broken record) so we can bring a new exciting part to the game without hardly changing anything. Just think about it, dont be closed minded.

------------------
Thelanis
Ex- Vagabond Member


Long Live Shinarel!

PVP is not a bad thing. I've had 1000's of hours of PVP fun in UO and DAOC. The problem is specifically that DDO was never intended to be a PVP game. This has bean beaten to death since the begining. Nothing new here.

KristovK
07-13-2007, 03:25 PM
Atreeson, I'd love to see you save against Fascinate...I'd PAY to see that actually...since it has no save and no SR check. Yeah, you've just impressed the hells out of me as a PvP god...not.

DDO isn't meant for PvP, there's no balance at all and there's certainly no skill involved. Had plenty of big badass warriors tell me they'd tear my wizard up in nothing flat...and after they'd died 15 times in a row they MIGHT actually get close enough to hit me. Meanwhile some little bard walks up and Fascinates me, hits me with a paralyzer and whips out his vorpal until he takes my head off. Yeah, that's SKILLZ! Please.

You, a so called PvP god, don't even know the basic ABILITIES of a single class, yet you try and make a claim like that? Yeah, yer the one who's opinion on this subject means something....

Kire
07-13-2007, 03:25 PM
+1 anarchic morningstar of greater dwarf bane, shield, 30 fort save, 30 balance, 340hp with 45 ac.. not happenin that easy Shecky :).. not to mention 36 str.. not too bad for a drow


hehe you may have 30 fort but when my caster throws a hypno at you your gonna be sitting pretty =). Of Course your not on riedra. then tehres always hold person and a puncturing dagger. many ways to kill with or without scorching ray.

~Kire

Vardak
07-13-2007, 03:30 PM
PvP = huge waste of development time and in DDO at least a misguided failure.

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 03:32 PM
hehe you may have 30 fort but when my caster throws a hypno at you your gonna be sitting pretty =). Of Course your not on riedra. then tehres always hold person and a puncturing dagger. many ways to kill with or without scorching ray.

~Kire

Heh you must not forget a 22 will save as well, and barbarian speed, warp time, and sprint boost with 2h weapon with barb power attack 3 and spring attack? you better hope i fail that first save on the hypno as in rolling a 3 or less. Because if not, you're either tripped, stunned, or just gonna die in a matter of seconds :). Spell resistance 20 helps too.
That answers your question KristovK.

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 03:36 PM
PvP = huge waste of development time and in DDO at least a misguided failure.

Who is to say that questing isn't just as much of a waste of time? It's an opinion. Some people think PvP is more entertaining after grinding the same quests all day, I'm not the only one on my server I know that feels this way.

Shecky
07-13-2007, 05:45 PM
Who is to say that questing isn't just as much of a waste of time?

I am. Well, after 30 years of D&D players and all the rulebooks that they use get done with having THEIR say. It's the basic design of the game, PvE - PvP is only mentioned sideways and in passing, never with any real acknowledgement.


It's an opinion. Some people think PvP is more entertaining after grinding the same quests all day, I'm not the only one on my server I know that feels this way.

See above.

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 05:50 PM
I am. Well, after 30 years of D&D players and all the rulebooks that they use get done with having THEIR say. It's the basic design of the game, PvE - PvP is only mentioned sideways and in passing, never with any real acknowledgement.



See above.

Then allow me to react how people react to me when I refer this game to the pencil and paper D&D - It's a totally different game. They would have left PvP specifically OUT of the game had that been their intention. But their intention was to leave it in, so obviously, there is some hope of later content, but NO ONE, not even 30 year vets, can say whether I am right or wrong about it.

Shecky
07-13-2007, 05:56 PM
Then allow me to react how people react to me when I refer this game to the pencil and paper D&D - It's a totally different game. They would have left PvP specifically OUT of the game had that been their intention. But their intention was to leave it in, so obviously, there is some hope of later content, but NO ONE, not even 30 year vets, can say whether I am right or wrong about it.

Actually, they were saying from the beginning that they had zero intention of implementing PvP in DDO. Bread and circuses - er, "popular opinion" swayed them into putting it in.

Belfalcon
07-13-2007, 06:01 PM
then go play a game that has it like wow.. i got this game becuse of the lack of pvp in the game.. and for most of use that play ddo dont like pvp and love the game the way it is so what im saying is move on to a game that has it and dont force us to have pvp just becuse some would like it
im also sick of hear i pay to play so thay need to do this... well you pay for the RIGHT to play on thare server.

Now I know there are many of you out there that hate PVP because you feel it's either an "ego boost", or a "waste of time", or something else to that nonsense. But here is the way I see it - We all pay to play the game, therefore we all have an equal right to do whatever we wish in the game, so why shouldn't PvP be more of a part of the game? There are many on Thelanis (server I play on obviously) I know that would appreciate more dynamics to the game, other than bangin the same quests over and over again for more uber loot, so you can use that uber loot to do those quests again in hopes of more uber loot. Or, you could get loot so you can hold your own in the PvP arena. Why shouldn't we use PvP as a use of tactics, contents, and even as an overall show of fighting skill? The fighting system in this game is such where you can be as good as you want to be, as in physically dodge spells and attacks, even if you have a crappy AC, if you're quick enough, you can be a lot better than what you appear. If we had some way to put the PvP system to use other than just tavern brawls and team battles (which NO one does because it hardly ever works), like a battle grounds, or even an entire server for PvP where the only safe points were the taverns, I think it would add a whole new dynamic and perspective on the game, and since it would be on its own server, only the people that WANT to be there, shall. I just don't think we need to do away with a part of the game that WOULD have existed, had Eberron actually been a real place and time.

But anyway, I think for a more realistic sense, more calling of skill, and overall, more satisfying (in my opinion), we need come together and speak up about our thoughts on PvP (excluding the people against it because you all say the same **** like a broken record) so we can bring a new exciting part to the game without hardly changing anything. Just think about it, dont be closed minded.

------------------
Thelanis
Ex- Vagabond Member


Long Live Shinarel!

KristovK
07-13-2007, 06:07 PM
Who is to say that questing isn't just as much of a waste of time? It's an opinion. Some people think PvP is more entertaining after grinding the same quests all day, I'm not the only one on my server I know that feels this way.

If you feel that questing is a grind, may I suggest you find a game where PvP is the focus and not an afterthought instead of a game where questing IS the focus? Obviously DDO isn't the game for you, which considering your Founder status is rather humerous, you've known since release that PvP was NOT part of the game design or plan.

And you didn't answer any question I posed because I posed none. I made a simple statement, that being you obviously don't know jack about the game and your opinion of PvP and it's value is obviously flawed due to that. You make it clear yourself from the above quote that your opinion is obviously flawed on this subject and should be disregarded out of hand.

Yes, some people feel that PvP should be the focus of the game. These same people tend to feel that way about ANY online game, it's all about direct competition against other living breathing opponents. There are plenty of games for that online, even MMO's built entirely around that concept, such as Planetside, where you get BOTH teamwork and direct conflict with living breathing players at the same time and you get it on a massive scale at that. Tactics and strategy actually MEAN something in that game, where as PvP in DDO is just a matter of who gets the better roll first, nothing more and nothing less. Try to fool yourself all you want, that's the truth of PvP in DDO.

Obviously no one on your server with a caster does PvP or you'd not be so quick to think your barb/fighter/paly such a god of PvP, but that only further erodes the already dubious value of your opinion concerning PvP. 14th level Sorc or Wiz spec'd for damage...even if you save you still die, the damage is that high. And they don't have to hit YOU..just near you...or didn't you know that? Not to mention the various spells that don't have saves, and if you really think your SR means anything to a 14th level caster...please, my 14th Wiz's bonus to defeat SR is a +21, means I have to NOT roll a 1 to get around your SR and my wiz didn't even take all the feats and enhancements for that! In DDO, as in PnP, once you get past 10th level, casters are the big dogs and everyone else is just support for them. We don't see that in the quests in DDO due to the massive HP inflation of the mobs, but...funny thing....the players don't get that massive HP inflation, so in PvP you get to see how powerful casters truely should be. So go on telling us all how you are a PvP god and that your opinion matters because of that when you obviously don't even know the basics of the game.

Please...anyone who thinks they can avoid being Fascinated....that's a Bard ability since you don't know that, and there is NO save NO SR check NO defense.

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 06:20 PM
PVP helps the game grow because it increases player interaction. I've stuck with MMOs even after I've exhausted all the content because of the player interactions. Gives something to do rather than roll a new toon and run WW again, or kill Velah again, or kill the Stormreaver again, etc. After 10 times, the questing gets to be a drag. Add more player/player interaction. Just my opinion of course...

-HumanRogue

Bryan721
07-13-2007, 06:32 PM
I dunno much about other games but I do know a little bit about DDO, I like it for what it is, a quest based MMO.

That is not to say that I am against PVP, I kinda like wasting some time in the tavern brawls but it really is obviously not the focus of this game and since it is ostensibly based on PnP d&d it isn't likely to be a very good pvp game because it flat isn't designed for it from the ground up. I play a level 14 warforged barbarian with all the damage specs you can have with a max constituion and som pretty good gear and I die almost instantly when a damage specced caster gets me targeted. Of course I do have a jolly good time of beating the **** out of them when they mess up and don't get the spell off but really it's fundamentally not the point of the game just a pleasant distraction while waiting for a raid to start or something.

CoH is the only other game I have ever played extensively and PvP is something that they also reluctantly added to appease the player base but they made the mistake of attempting to rebalance all the powers and archetypes to work in an equitable manner against players and mobs, it doesn't work really well but is pretty fun.

In ddo the devs don't really have the option of completely redesigning the game systyem to accomodate pvp because it is supposed to be faithful to the source material.

I suggest maybe playing a game that is more PVP centric if you want a better quality pvp experience or just be content to do a little tavern brawling before the raids like the rest of us.

I personally am going to try that new age of Conan game because it looks like it will be more fun for PVP since the combat system is more like a console game than an mmo.

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 06:36 PM
If you feel that questing is a grind, may I suggest you find a game where PvP is the focus and not an afterthought instead of a game where questing IS the focus? Obviously DDO isn't the game for you, which considering your Founder status is rather humerous, you've known since release that PvP was NOT part of the game design or plan.

And you didn't answer any question I posed because I posed none. I made a simple statement, that being you obviously don't know jack about the game and your opinion of PvP and it's value is obviously flawed due to that. You make it clear yourself from the above quote that your opinion is obviously flawed on this subject and should be disregarded out of hand.

Yes, some people feel that PvP should be the focus of the game. These same people tend to feel that way about ANY online game, it's all about direct competition against other living breathing opponents. There are plenty of games for that online, even MMO's built entirely around that concept, such as Planetside, where you get BOTH teamwork and direct conflict with living breathing players at the same time and you get it on a massive scale at that. Tactics and strategy actually MEAN something in that game, where as PvP in DDO is just a matter of who gets the better roll first, nothing more and nothing less. Try to fool yourself all you want, that's the truth of PvP in DDO.

Obviously no one on your server with a caster does PvP or you'd not be so quick to think your barb/fighter/paly such a god of PvP, but that only further erodes the already dubious value of your opinion concerning PvP. 14th level Sorc or Wiz spec'd for damage...even if you save you still die, the damage is that high. And they don't have to hit YOU..just near you...or didn't you know that? Not to mention the various spells that don't have saves, and if you really think your SR means anything to a 14th level caster...please, my 14th Wiz's bonus to defeat SR is a +21, means I have to NOT roll a 1 to get around your SR and my wiz didn't even take all the feats and enhancements for that! In DDO, as in PnP, once you get past 10th level, casters are the big dogs and everyone else is just support for them. We don't see that in the quests in DDO due to the massive HP inflation of the mobs, but...funny thing....the players don't get that massive HP inflation, so in PvP you get to see how powerful casters truely should be. So go on telling us all how you are a PvP god and that your opinion matters because of that when you obviously don't even know the basics of the game.

Please...anyone who thinks they can avoid being Fascinated....that's a Bard ability since you don't know that, and there is NO save NO SR check NO defense.


By hearing your words, you obviously don't PvP near as much as myself. Any caster on Thelanis will tell you I put up one of the best, if not the best challenge in the arena with my barbarian, whether they'll admit it or not. The fact of the matter is, you can avoid almost every single damaging spell in the entire game simply by moving laterally or jumping high enough at the right time.. Had you been skilled enough to know this, you would have another perspective. All I can say is, come on Thelanis and make a caster, and you're not gonna be uber in the arena, I guarantee you that. There isn't a single caster that I've fought in the arena that I have never beat, or cannot beat. You don't understand that it's not just about stats. It's about knowing how to use every resource your character has to offer, and use it to its full potential. Like with barbarian speed, warp time, and sprint boost, I can dodge fireballs, lightning bolts, cone of cold, scorching ray, even chain lightning.. There is a way for each damage spell to dodge it. You have to have good reflexes (in real life) and speed, and you can beat almost any caster.. Of course having all saves in the mid 20s, to low 30s helps too. You obviously have no knowledge on how that is done, so I'm glad I can be the first to let you know.

Atreeson
07-13-2007, 06:41 PM
And don't forget that if there was a PVP SERVER then that wouldn't affect anyone except the ones who played on that server. So how could you even be against it? If you don't want anything to do with it, it'll seem like nothing changed, but if you want a part in it, you are able to go all the way or just every once and a while you play on it. Either way, it's just an idea to add dynamics to the game while not changing the way the game is played. Which is why I don't understand why all you people keep saying they'd have to change the game all that BS. It would basically be another test server like Risia, except have the concept of people actually being able to hurt each other, which is more realistic, whether you want to think that or not. That could even give way to evil alignments eventually. There are endless possibilities, so don't be so freakin against something until you know all about it.

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 06:49 PM
Yes, some people feel that PvP should be the focus of the game. These same people tend to feel that way about ANY online game, it's all about direct competition against other living breathing opponents. There are plenty of games for that online, even MMO's built entirely around that concept, such as Planetside, where you get BOTH teamwork and direct conflict with living breathing players at the same time and you get it on a massive scale at that. Tactics and strategy actually MEAN something in that game, where as PvP in DDO is just a matter of who gets the better roll first, nothing more and nothing less. Try to fool yourself all you want, that's the truth of PvP in DDO.

I agree that PvP shouldn't be the focus of DDO. I doubt that there are more than a few people who would really want it to be the FOCUS of DDO. I also don't think that many people really want to see full PvP where you have to look out as you walk around town or go to quests for fear of getting jumped (I know that's not really what I want either). PVP does add another dimension to the game though. I know I took lots of time designing and leveling a character just for PvP and have found that he's now my favorite character to play while doing PvP AND questing.

Vinos
07-13-2007, 06:49 PM
Hah. Fascinate and scorching ray? Try good will save and speed, and a vicious maul of greater elf bane, which i know most of you casters are, and you're gone in 2-3, sometimes 4 hits. come on Thelanis and try that to my toon Sturmcrow Locke. I guarantee you, you shall have a difficult time. Mark my words.
And as far as you saying it requires no skill, try spring attack with a two handed weapon. It changes the way you can deal dps with a weapon if you're good enough. And by saying it requires no skill implies that you have no knowledge of the way pvp can really be, so I would suggest you try it more often.

Typical PvPer attitude. And the reason many people can't stand PvP.

jaitee
07-13-2007, 06:52 PM
i love PVP, i usually go there to take a break from questing/looting, to have some fun, on my server, ive become a pretty decent pvper.
-i also learn many things in pvp areas, how to react on how to take out players, how to defend/kill multiple players and stay alive, it helps me in quests, ive got really good in pvp, on my caster i can take out 5-7 casters all coming at me once, while moving and dodging spells, just relate this to a quest, total party wipe, ur the only one left..you get the story, pvp helps tone skills up, pvp does require skills, if not knowing what spells to use when and how, and how fast ur reflexes are to react, where to put ur most used spells on the hotbar, hotkeys. if this is not a skill then, are u just spamming buttons on ur Nintendo like when we were kids?
-pvp is a place i like to go to break from all the drama, and grinding, id like for it to improve,

FYI, jumping down from the bridge into the pvp area, and killing someone who is busy pvpin with other, or FtS someone jumping down is not skills

Lebrac
07-13-2007, 07:32 PM
Hah. You still would be sadly mistaken. I assure you.

Ppl like u atreeson is why i wish there was a way to cross server PVP.... i would love for my little ranger/fighter to get his mits into a good dual with u :)

Lebrac
07-13-2007, 07:42 PM
Typical PvPer attitude. And the reason many people can't stand PvP.

so your telling me u can't stand PVP becaues ppl learn how to adapt and overcome your abilitys to use there own?.... i dont' understand this line of thinking at all.

JelloMold
07-13-2007, 08:00 PM
The degeneration of this thread into the I can beat you up...no you can't garbage is why PvP has no appeal to me. IF they implemented the ability for people to kill other players I'd drop in a heartbeat.

With regards to your single server kill everybody rules, think about this: You just join a group and you are on the way to join them when you are cold cocked by some troglodyte who has nothing better to do than to keep others from having fun. Griefing galore. Maybe if you could turn it on and have an "it's OK to try to kill me" flag over your head that would make it a little better. Even then, you'd have some fool camping out without his fight staus being active, slip into a position to make the target vulnerable, switch the fight status and attack. I can even see this guy hit you while you are not looking, if you don't die, he'll swtich back and say HaHa you can't hit me.

Great system for 12 year olds. Not much attraction for us grownups.

Even though you don't want to hear it (and already have), the game is not designed around PvP. Unless you built your character specifically for PvP you WILL have glaring weaknesses that frequent PvPers will learn to exploit. Before long, most people would get tired of it and go back to running quests.

Nevthial
07-13-2007, 08:00 PM
For myself and my guild mates hopping into the brawling area and being killed or doing some killing yourself is fun. We leave our ego's at the door. It is a good way to test different weapon & spell combinations for us. Granted, not all spells are available, but, we can still get the idea of how a particular combo might work against monsters. Personally, I don't feel that the ability to attack other players should be extended outside of brawling areas or the PvP arena. It would lead to much grief if it were. PvP should be left as it is.
It is a pleasant diversion. Besides, the brawling areas are nice for roleplay purposes.

And , come on, my characters wouldn't be master River Dancers if it weren't for PvP.

Drider
07-13-2007, 08:09 PM
Heh you must not forget a 22 will save as well, and barbarian speed, warp time, and sprint boost with 2h weapon with barb power attack 3 and spring attack? you better hope i fail that first save on the hypno as in rolling a 3 or less. Because if not, you're either tripped, stunned, or just gonna die in a matter of seconds :). Spell resistance 20 helps too.
That answers your question KristovK.


Seriously this is why alot of people dislike pvp. It's just alot of my **** is bigger then your *****.

smodge13
07-13-2007, 08:12 PM
one thing that would good, i tried to set it up ages ago and got alot of interest in it, i unfortunately didnt have enough time to actually get it started and off the ground, but something i was trying to set up on htelanis was weekly pvp tournaments, entry costs a certain amount of plat and then 2 teams enter the arena, knockout style tournament as team with msot points advances and the total plat would go to the nights winner.

unfortunately i dont have a time of the week that i can definately make it online every week so i was unable to get it off the ground.

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 08:13 PM
Seriously this is why alot of people dislike pvp. It's just alot of my **** is bigger then your *****.

I think this is why lots of people like PvP too. They are able to see who is better at it (or who has the lucky rolls as the case may be). Goes both ways.

Vinos
07-13-2007, 08:14 PM
so your telling me u can't stand PVP becaues ppl learn how to adapt and overcome your abilitys to use there own?.... i dont' understand this line of thinking at all.

It's the endless smack talk that drives people crazy. The whole "I would kick your but becuase I am so awesome" attitude is what really turns people off. We're not all uber leet like you so why would most of us bother with PvP knowing we wouldn't stand a chance.

Vinos
07-13-2007, 08:15 PM
By hearing your words, you obviously don't PvP near as much as myself. Any caster on Thelanis will tell you I put up one of the best, if not the best challenge in the arena with my barbarian, whether they'll admit it or not. The fact of the matter is, you can avoid almost every single damaging spell in the entire game simply by moving laterally or jumping high enough at the right time.. Had you been skilled enough to know this, you would have another perspective. All I can say is, come on Thelanis and make a caster, and you're not gonna be uber in the arena, I guarantee you that. There isn't a single caster that I've fought in the arena that I have never beat, or cannot beat. You don't understand that it's not just about stats. It's about knowing how to use every resource your character has to offer, and use it to its full potential. Like with barbarian speed, warp time, and sprint boost, I can dodge fireballs, lightning bolts, cone of cold, scorching ray, even chain lightning.. There is a way for each damage spell to dodge it. You have to have good reflexes (in real life) and speed, and you can beat almost any caster.. Of course having all saves in the mid 20s, to low 30s helps too. You obviously have no knowledge on how that is done, so I'm glad I can be the first to let you know.

/bows down and worships

dameron
07-13-2007, 08:19 PM
By hearing your words, you obviously don't PvP near as much as myself. Any caster on Thelanis will tell you I put up one of the best, if not the best challenge in the arena with my barbarian, whether they'll admit it or not.

I know you dance real good in your high boots, and when I got through with you you realized how lame your (then) 16 Will save was, and did everything possible to boost it.

Oh, and that was with my max haggle mule bard/sorc who doesn't have a combat spell above 2nd level.

:)


/Tener, Bard 1, Sorc 12, Thelanis

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 08:25 PM
It's the endless smack talk that drives people crazy. The whole "I would kick your but becuase I am so awesome" attitude is what really turns people off. We're not all uber leet like you so why would most of us bother with PvP knowing we wouldn't stand a chance.

So with the addition of the brawling rooms in the tavern, have you gotten 'endless smack talk' or has it not made much a difference in the way you play DDO? I'm betting that PvP, as it has been implemented, hasn't made much a difference in the gameplay for those who would rather quest (Which is the way I think it should be.) But I do think that they could do a better job with PvP than what has been implemented (i.e. a city zone that is only PvP (nothing to do there but PvP), or better matching system for the Quickfoot Arena).

Lebrac
07-13-2007, 08:57 PM
It's the endless smack talk that drives people crazy. The whole "I would kick your but becuase I am so awesome" attitude is what really turns people off. We're not all uber leet like you so why would most of us bother with PvP knowing we wouldn't stand a chance.

Again... your way of thinking is so crazy to me....

why bother doing something u can't win at?.... so your saying why bother liveing life at all cause there is no real winner in life... or am i reading into this wrong... why do people play sports if they are not the best in the world with this way of thinking? It's to have fun i would guess myself. it's also to push yourself to the limit to try to beat the people who are better or to learn ways new ways of doing things to improve yourself as a person. Implement tihs into pvp and just turn off chat so u can't hear the braggers brag about winning and then try to improve yourself u will learn that improveing yourself in PVP will improve yourself in questing as well.

Fact 1. when i started PVP i really sucked at it and basicaly never won at all... but i didn't quit i keep plugging away. i didn't rebuild my char cause i love him very much. he is a TOn of fun to me. but i did start looking for ways to make him better cause i didn't think my build was that much worse then other people builds. u think about strategy and what is hurting u the most and then u counter that with what u can. (kinda sounds like most sports to me)...

i dont' know why i even bother trying to tell people that pvping will make them a better player because all they do is think that the few people with inflated egos that talk smack... Witch u get in your quest groups also BTW they do the same thing in those. try PVP with people u know who aren't going to smack talk try to combat the things that kill u the easyest and u will become not only better at PVP if u chose to ever do it more then that or u will just improve your overall gameplay.

Vinos
07-13-2007, 09:02 PM
So with the addition of the brawling rooms in the tavern, have you gotten 'endless smack talk' or has it not made much a difference in the way you play DDO? I'm betting that PvP, as it has been implemented, hasn't made much a difference in the gameplay for those who would rather quest (Which is the way I think it should be.) But I do think that they could do a better job with PvP than what has been implemented (i.e. a city zone that is only PvP (nothing to do there but PvP), or better matching system for the Quickfoot Arena).

I don't PvP in DDO but I have done it in other games and yes endless smack talk is the norm. Tells do work across zones you know.

VoltaicLime
07-13-2007, 09:09 PM
*snip a lot of stupid junk*

Gawd! Learn how to spell out the word YOU. Spelling it 'u' does nothing but make you look like the ignorant, egotistical, smack talking pvp-wannabe child you are.

Vinos
07-13-2007, 09:09 PM
Again... your way of thinking is so crazy to me....

why bother doing something u can't win at?.... so your saying why bother liveing life at all cause there is no real winner in life... or am i reading into this wrong... why do people play sports if they are not the best in the world with this way of thinking? It's to have fun i would guess myself. it's also to push yourself to the limit to try to beat the people who are better or to learn ways new ways of doing things to improve yourself as a person. Implement tihs into pvp and just turn off chat so u can't hear the braggers brag about winning and then try to improve yourself u will learn that improveing yourself in PVP will improve yourself in questing as well.

Fact 1. when i started PVP i really sucked at it and basicaly never won at all... but i didn't quit i keep plugging away. i didn't rebuild my char cause i love him very much. he is a TOn of fun to me. but i did start looking for ways to make him better cause i didn't think my build was that much worse then other people builds. u think about strategy and what is hurting u the most and then u counter that with what u can. (kinda sounds like most sports to me)...

i dont' know why i even bother trying to tell people that pvping will make them a better player because all they do is think that the few people with inflated egos that talk smack... Witch u get in your quest groups also BTW they do the same thing in those. try PVP with people u know who aren't going to smack talk try to combat the things that kill u the easyest and u will become not only better at PVP if u chose to ever do it more then that or u will just improve your overall gameplay.

Life and video games are different and if you don't think so then you need to stop playing games for a while. Sure someone could get wailed on for a month or so and maybe get good at PvP but I for one can't stand it when I step into the PvP arena for the 1st time and get blasted by a 400 point sorching ray and then get tells saying "OMGZ I PWND U!!" Maybe you're not that way and maybe you are but alot of PvPer's that I have seen are uber leet kids with no life who feel better about themselves becuase they smashed some hapless player into oblivion. PvP is fine where it is. Hardly used and ignored by Devs. I quit CoH becuase PvP started affecting my PvE gameplay.

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 09:29 PM
I don't PvP in DDO but I have done it in other games and yes endless smack talk is the norm. Tells do work across zones you know.

I'm sorry that has happened to you. It's not right and really shouldn't. I guess I didn't realize that 'endless smack talk was the norm' here in DDO with the addition of the tavern brawl rooms. I've never really had any smack talk since they implemented the tavern brawl rooms, so I guess my experience here with DDO's PvP must just have been different than yours. If it gets to be a problem, you can always squelch tells though... :(

Vinos
07-13-2007, 09:37 PM
I'm sorry that has happened to you. It's not right and really shouldn't. I guess I didn't realize that 'endless smack talk was the norm' here in DDO with the addition of the tavern brawl rooms. I've never really had any smack talk since they implemented the tavern brawl rooms, so I guess my experience here with DDO's PvP must just have been different than yours. If it gets to be a problem, you can always squelch tells though... :(


Only time I use PvP is to test a spell or something like that. DDO is probably not as bad as other MMO's since this tends to have an older playerbase but like anything else the rudest people are the loudest. 95% of the players are cool but that other 5% are the ones that ruin it for everyone. The biggest reason I don't want PvP to become a bigger part of the game is becuase spells and feats will have to be "re-balanced" CoX nerfed several powers becuase they were not balanced in PvP and if that was to happen in DDO then I would certianly quit.

JelloMold
07-13-2007, 09:46 PM
My only experience with PvP was when it first came out. I went to go look into the pit in the Lobster. I saw a bunch of people running around in circles and not really doing much of anything that resembled intelligent combat. While I was watching, I accidentally dropped in. As I was climbing up the ladder to leave some tool cast Ottos dance on me. Either he did it repeatedly or I kept failing my save (not sure how that spell works and that character had really low will saves). Anyway, I danced there on the ladder for about 5 mins. Really mature and fun for all.

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 09:46 PM
Only time I use PvP is to test a spell or something like that. DDO is probably not as bad as other MMO's since this tends to have an older playerbase but like anything else the rudest people are the loudest. 95% of the players are cool but that other 5% are the ones that ruin it for everyone. The biggest reason I don't want PvP to become a bigger part of the game is becuase spells and feats will have to be "re-balanced" CoX nerfed several powers becuase they were not balanced in PvP and if that was to happen in DDO then I would certianly quit.

I enjoy PvP, and wish it got a little more love from the dev team (Not much love but a little bit). But if they did any rebalancing/nerfing because of the PvP, I'd be looking for greener pastures on that same wagon with you Vinos.

Cendaer
07-13-2007, 10:45 PM
Now I know there are many of you out there that hate PVP because you feel it's either an "ego boost", or a "waste of time", or something else to that nonsense. But here is the way I see it - We all pay to play the game, therefore we all have an equal right to do whatever we wish in the game,

I didn't have to read any further than that.

You do not have any right to do whatever you wish in the game.

You are paying for the right to play a game, as it is provided by Turbine. There is no freedom to "do as you wish;" you must play the game within it's boundaries as provided by the company which owns it.

Just because you are paying the subscription fee, does not, in any way, shape or form, obligate Turbine to develop the game to suit your whims and fancies.

Paying a subscription fee for anything, does not give you ownership of the company which produces it, nor does it give you any right to any control of any of the content. For instance, just because you subscribe to Time Magazine, does not mean you get to pick the cover story, ever.

As with most things, if you don't like it, no one's holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy it. If you want to provide feedback to those whom you purchase things from, that's fine, but do not presume that just because you're paying for something, you have any control whatsoever of the company or people from which you are buying.

Cendaer
07-13-2007, 10:56 PM
Hah. Fascinate and scorching ray? Try good will save and speed, and a vicious maul of greater elf bane, which i know most of you casters are, and you're gone in 2-3, sometimes 4 hits. come on Thelanis and try that to my toon Sturmcrow Locke. I guarantee you, you shall have a difficult time. Mark my words.
And as far as you saying it requires no skill, try spring attack with a two handed weapon. It changes the way you can deal dps with a weapon if you're good enough. And by saying it requires no skill implies that you have no knowledge of the way pvp can really be, so I would suggest you try it more often.


/trip
/stunning blow
/carve the turkey

:D


+1 anarchic morningstar of greater dwarf bane, shield, 30 fort save, 30 balance, 340hp with 45 ac.. not happenin that easy Shecky :).. not to mention 36 str.. not too bad for a drow


Ahh, I've tripped and stunned bigger giant poos than you! :p

...see? Now THIS is how PvP is s'posed to go! :)


Hah. You still would be sadly mistaken. I assure you.


Hey, whatever lets you sleep at night. ;)


Same could be said for you by myself. :)


hehe you may have 30 fort but when my caster throws a hypno at you your gonna be sitting pretty =). Of Course your not on riedra. then tehres always hold person and a puncturing dagger. many ways to kill with or without scorching ray.

~Kire


Heh you must not forget a 22 will save as well, and barbarian speed, warp time, and sprint boost with 2h weapon with barb power attack 3 and spring attack? you better hope i fail that first save on the hypno as in rolling a 3 or less. Because if not, you're either tripped, stunned, or just gonna die in a matter of seconds :). Spell resistance 20 helps too.
That answers your question KristovK.

The above quoted conversation is a perfect example of the attitude PvP evokes in some people, and which so many other people loathe and detest.

Dimicron
07-13-2007, 11:01 PM
Now I know there are many of you out there that hate PVP because you feel it's either an "ego boost", or a "waste of time", or something else to that nonsense. But here is the way I see it - We all pay to play the game, therefore we all have an equal right to do whatever we wish in the game, so why shouldn't PvP be more of a part of the game? There are many on Thelanis (server I play on obviously) I know that would appreciate more dynamics to the game, other than bangin the same quests over and over again for more uber loot, so you can use that uber loot to do those quests again in hopes of more uber loot. Or, you could get loot so you can hold your own in the PvP arena. Why shouldn't we use PvP as a use of tactics, contents, and even as an overall show of fighting skill? The fighting system in this game is such where you can be as good as you want to be, as in physically dodge spells and attacks, even if you have a crappy AC, if you're quick enough, you can be a lot better than what you appear. If we had some way to put the PvP system to use other than just tavern brawls and team battles (which NO one does because it hardly ever works), like a battle grounds, or even an entire server for PvP where the only safe points were the taverns, I think it would add a whole new dynamic and perspective on the game, and since it would be on its own server, only the people that WANT to be there, shall. I just don't think we need to do away with a part of the game that WOULD have existed, had Eberron actually been a real place and time.

But anyway, I think for a more realistic sense, more calling of skill, and overall, more satisfying (in my opinion), we need come together and speak up about our thoughts on PvP (excluding the people against it because you all say the same **** like a broken record) so we can bring a new exciting part to the game without hardly changing anything. Just think about it, dont be closed minded.

------------------
Thelanis
Ex- Vagabond Member


Long Live Shinarel!

Pot, meet kettle... You are clearly for PvP, and are also saying things like a broken record. Just look at it from both sides. Some people get that rush from killing another player. Some are happy to complete quests and adventure. Neither side is really right or wrong, just different. :)

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 11:04 PM
The above quoted conversation is a perfect example of the attitude PvP evokes in some people, and which so many other people loathe and detest.

Notice that the conversation includes those who enjoy PvP and those who don't. Both seem to act the same... (Just read a post against crafting, sounds pretty much the same, those for and those against...)

JelloMold
07-13-2007, 11:12 PM
Notice that the conversation includes those who enjoy PvP and those who don't. Both seem to act the same... (Just read a post against crafting, sounds pretty much the same, those for and those against...)

Yeah, I suppose later on we'll hear
"You crafted that? Why did you use ____________ on your armor? everyone knows that you should put _________.

Oh, yeah, well I can make a ______ faster than you.

Who cares? ________ is for noobs


yada yada yada

The quest to be the alpha geek is never ending.
You can always be like Farmer Ted in Sixteen Candles. "I'm sort of the king of the dipsh***s" :D

KristovK
07-13-2007, 11:20 PM
Our resident god of PvP simply doesn't get it. Which is really rather funny since according to his sig he's been playing since beta.

As early as 2005 it was confirmed, DDO and PvP don't mix. It was only added, in the extremely limited form we have now, after MUCH screaming and whining by a very vocal minority who just would NOT shut up about it...and because of certain mixed reviews that condemned the game because it had NO PvP option at all. Real reason PvP was added...those mixed reviews, that's a hit to sales, not the vocal minority who's total en masse migration from DDO wouldn't even make a dent in the bottom line.

Once it was decided to add PvP, the devs were pretty clear on how it would work. Limited area, consent only, no changes to anything to make anything balanced in any way, shape or form....oh..and this is ALL you get for PvP, so suck it up and deal. Almost a year after PvP was added we've seen...well......nothing changed about it, despite people asking for more and more and more PvP options and changes since it was in testing on Risia. It was made clear while we tested PvP on Risia that what you see is what you get, NOTHING more.

And I evidently understand the game and how it works better then you do if you actually think an SR of 20 is impressive or that you can actually avoid being Fascinated by any Bard at all with the ability.

Oh..and taking 5 or 10 attempts to kill that caster who fried you..that's not success...

HumanRogue
07-13-2007, 11:27 PM
Yeah, I suppose later on we'll hear
"You crafted that? Why did you use ____________ on your armor? everyone knows that you should put _________.

Oh, yeah, well I can make a ______ faster than you.

Who cares? ________ is for noobs


yada yada yada

The quest to be the alpha geek is never ending.
You can always be like Farmer Ted in Sixteen Candles. "I'm sort of the king of the dipsh***s" :D

LOL! Never heard of an 'alpha geek' before. Thats great! :D

Lebrac
07-14-2007, 01:52 AM
Our resident god of PvP simply doesn't get it. Which is really rather funny since according to his sig he's been playing since beta.

As early as 2005 it was confirmed, DDO and PvP don't mix. It was only added, in the extremely limited form we have now, after MUCH screaming and whining by a very vocal minority who just would NOT shut up about it...and because of certain mixed reviews that condemned the game because it had NO PvP option at all. Real reason PvP was added...those mixed reviews, that's a hit to sales, not the vocal minority who's total en masse migration from DDO wouldn't even make a dent in the bottom line.

Once it was decided to add PvP, the devs were pretty clear on how it would work. Limited area, consent only, no changes to anything to make anything balanced in any way, shape or form....oh..and this is ALL you get for PvP, so suck it up and deal. Almost a year after PvP was added we've seen...well......nothing changed about it, despite people asking for more and more and more PvP options and changes since it was in testing on Risia. It was made clear while we tested PvP on Risia that what you see is what you get, NOTHING more.

And I evidently understand the game and how it works better then you do if you actually think an SR of 20 is impressive or that you can actually avoid being Fascinated by any Bard at all with the ability.

Oh..and taking 5 or 10 attempts to kill that caster who fried you..that's not success...


why does eveyone bring up balanceing as a issue with PVP? not a single PVP player has said anything about balance. we are asking for what they implemented in the game to work properly AKA the CTF and team FFA zones. do u not understand that a little love goes a LONG LONG way? with a little love PVP could be even better. u don't have to change anything about the game to change PVP u have to fix things already in the game so they work and if they want to add a little to it then most pvpers will be very happy. mostly all i have seen asked for was fixing of what is in place. i have tossed out the idea of a zone for cross server PVP... just as somethign cool not thinking it will ever be put in... it' would just be awsome that's it.

FWI... i think PVP is very balanced as it is... for every class but rouges... they get the short end of the stick in this matter but still i have seen some very good at pvp...

Oran_Lathor
07-14-2007, 03:25 AM
Just making a point.


Heh you must not forget a 22 will save as well, and barbarian speed, warp time, and sprint boost with 2h weapon with barb power attack 3 and spring attack? you better hope i fail that first save on the hypno as in rolling a 3 or less. Because if not, you're either tripped, stunned, or just gonna die in a matter of seconds :). Spell resistance 20 helps too.
That answers your question KristovK.


An equally twinked out crowd controlling caster can easily have +20 spell pen rolls and a wide variety of enchantments to cast at DC of 33. Which puts you below 50/50 even assuming they aren't quick at the keys.

Hvymetal
07-14-2007, 04:28 AM
[QUOTE=Atreeson;1240257]Hah. Fascinate and scorching ray? Try good will save and speed[QUOTE]
Fascinate has no save, so yea a lv 5 Bard could leave ya helpless and have a field day with you.

Don't care about PVP 1 whit so long as it has zero bearing on the rest of the game because of PVP "balancing" issues such as the Bard one above.

Shecky
07-14-2007, 09:14 AM
And don't forget that if there was a PVP SERVER then that wouldn't affect anyone except the ones who played on that server. So how could you even be against it? If you don't want anything to do with it, it'll seem like nothing changed, but if you want a part in it, you are able to go all the way or just every once and a while you play on it. Either way, it's just an idea to add dynamics to the game while not changing the way the game is played. Which is why I don't understand why all you people keep saying they'd have to change the game all that BS. It would basically be another test server like Risia, except have the concept of people actually being able to hurt each other, which is more realistic, whether you want to think that or not. That could even give way to evil alignments eventually. There are endless possibilities, so don't be so freakin against something until you know all about it.

I'm against anything that takes away coding time that would otherwise be spent on developing new content or fixing old content. Putting coding time and spending money on PvP servers takes resources away from what the game has ALWAYS been designed to do, both PnP and DDO. Unless you want to pay personally for another server and for the salaries of the devs required to keep the necessary stuff coming?

Do NOT mistake me: I've played PvP. I've had an absolute ball doing it. But it does not need more development than it's already taken away from the rest of the game.

HumanRogue
07-14-2007, 09:40 AM
I'm against anything that takes away coding time that would otherwise be spent on developing new content or fixing old content. Putting coding time and spending money on PvP servers takes resources away from what the game has ALWAYS been designed to do, both PnP and DDO. Unless you want to pay personally for another server and for the salaries of the devs required to keep the necessary stuff coming?

Do NOT mistake me: I've played PvP. I've had an absolute ball doing it. But it does not need more development than it's already taken away from the rest of the game.

It my opinion that many PvPers (Me at least...) want exactly what you say you want, some time 'fixing old content' like the Quickfoot Arena and other team match-ups...

Atreeson
07-14-2007, 11:53 AM
Pot, meet kettle... You are clearly for PvP, and are also saying things like a broken record. Just look at it from both sides. Some people get that rush from killing another player. Some are happy to complete quests and adventure. Neither side is really right or wrong, just different. :)


I'm glad you pointed that out, but that is why I suggested a server for people who wanna be there. This pretty much means anyone who is complaining about pvp on this thread right now, needs to just erase their messages because their opinions aren't necessary. If you hate PvP, then quest your life away, but if you think it's a growing part of the game, please share your thoughts.

Atreeson
07-14-2007, 11:55 AM
Our resident god of PvP simply doesn't get it. Which is really rather funny since according to his sig he's been playing since beta.

And I evidently understand the game and how it works better then you do if you actually think an SR of 20 is impressive or that you can actually avoid being Fascinated by any Bard at all with the ability.

Oh..and taking 5 or 10 attempts to kill that caster who fried you..that's not success...

That's if you let a bard fascinate you. That shows why you still obviously don't pvp often, because if you did, you'd know ways of getting around almost every spell. It's called sprint boost and run away till the song stops playing then beat the hell out of them. It's pretty simple really.

Atreeson
07-14-2007, 12:04 PM
Just making a point.




An equally twinked out crowd controlling caster can easily have +20 spell pen rolls and a wide variety of enchantments to cast at DC of 33. Which puts you below 50/50 even assuming they aren't quick at the keys.


That's what makes PvP so exciting in my opinion tho. It's gonna be different almost every battle if both people abide by a certain honor. I.e. no eating food, and no fighting until both players are ready. The only reason people think PvP is unbalanced is because they duel like freakin maniacs. You can have honor amongst players in the arena, I do with many on my server. It makes PvP that much better too.. I just think you people knocking it are either 1. Feeling your toons are incapable of PvP arenas, 2. Just too closed mined to give it a try, or 3. Afraid of me actually being right.
As far as people's toons not being good in PvP, here's a tip for you if you actually CARE - Build a new toon made for PvP. It's something new to do, and is actually rather satisfying. I suggest you try it, because both of my mains are pretty much PvP builds and they're awesome in quests too.

Atreeson
07-14-2007, 01:11 PM
All I can say though, to those who do not believe me, is to come on Thelanis sometime in the future and challenge me to a duel. That is the only true way for you to know, is to experience it yourself first hand. Anything else is hear-say BS that could go on for days.

FeFiFoFum
07-14-2007, 01:18 PM
Typical PvPer attitude. And the reason many people can't stand PvP.

Talk about attitude. Dude he is just expressing an idea that is not forced on anyone. This game whether you agree or not is setup to appeal to a broad customer base. New ideas are what keeps games going....

FeFiFoFum
07-14-2007, 01:29 PM
I'm against anything that takes away coding time that would otherwise be spent on developing new content or fixing old content. Putting coding time and spending money on PvP servers takes resources away from what the game has ALWAYS been designed to do, both PnP and DDO. Unless you want to pay personally for another server and for the salaries of the devs required to keep the necessary stuff coming?

Do NOT mistake me: I've played PvP. I've had an absolute ball doing it. But it does not need more development than it's already taken away from the rest of the game.

Shecky,
Improvements to all aspects of the game are welcomed in my book. The forum is a great place for the devs to prioritize valuable resources use. Personnally i have only dabbled in pvp, but it's been fun and if the resources are available then it could at least be considered.
If resources are a problem they could consider additional $/mo. to access a dedicated server...just one option.
I am a firm believer in putting ideas out there for improvements. Atreeson and other pvp players enjoy this aspect of the game and while I am a toonaholic and love rerolling and refining others have different ways of biding their time until new content comes out.

Balrogg

FeFiFoFum
07-14-2007, 01:41 PM
The above quoted conversation is a perfect example of the attitude PvP evokes in some people, and which so many other people loathe and detest.

And this would be coming from an open mind?:rolleyes:

Ziggy
07-14-2007, 01:49 PM
Notice that the conversation includes those who enjoy PvP and those who don't. Both seem to act the same... (Just read a post against crafting, sounds pretty much the same, those for and those against...)
OH YEAH.....

well my daddy could beat up your daddy.

except im gonna use my DDO character and your gonna use your DDO character.

Thats what it sounds like when i hear people say I could kick your butt in PVP.

As to whether or not i want PVP in this game.

originally i didnt want it. Ive done the brawl thing, and had some fun in there. Do i want the devs to fix the PVP already in game(deathmatch and CTF)? sure.

I also want them to fix a multitude of other thing, that i want to come first before they use time to create a PVP server/cross server PVP.

But yeah id say fix the PVP in game already along with the other stuff i want fixed. Why you may ask? because i know people enjoy it, its in game, but not working correctly.

FeFiFoFum
07-14-2007, 01:57 PM
OH YEAH.....

well my daddy could beat up your daddy.

except im gonna use my DDO character and your gonna use your DDO character.

Thats what it sounds like when i hear people say I could kick your butt in PVP.

As to whether or not i want PVP in this game.

originally i didnt want it. Ive done the brawl thing, and had some fun in there. Do i want the devs to fix the PVP already in game(deathmatch and CTF)? sure.

I also want them to fix a multitude of other thing, that i want to come first before they use time to create a PVP server/cross server PVP.

But yeah id say fix the PVP in game already along with the other stuff i want fixed. Why you may ask? because i know people enjoy it, its in game, but not working correctly.

Hey Zig havent been on the forums in a bit. New job which requires all my time:mad:
The irony is that the forums are the biggest PVP arena around. There's more posturing here than in the taverns. If the customer base (everyone) can get things that keep them interested then the higher the likelihood the game will continue.... I trust the Turbine experts to apply resources where needed to achieve this... they do know what they're doing right? (* squishee noises in background)

Ziggy
07-14-2007, 02:01 PM
Hey Zig havent been on the forums in a bit. New job which requires all my time:mad:

The irony is that the forums are the biggest PVP arena around. There's more posturing here than in the taverns. If the customer base (everyone) can get things that keep them interested then the higher the likelihood the game will continue.... I trust the Turbine experts to apply resources where needed to achieve this... they do know what they're doing right? (* squishee noises in background)
Yeah i hear ya.

I gotta start looking for a new job, so no clue whats going on with my forum time soon.

And yeah its interesting that the forums have become the inter-server PVP that everyone is asking about.:eek:

and yeah i think turbine is trying yo make everyone happy. I know they are making people mad on purpose, just read my sig.:D

Darkdominion
07-14-2007, 11:41 PM
I don't know if anyone has suggested this one yet, but DDO has this really cool built in instance system for every zone. I don't think it would be terribly difficult to make it so there is always one instance that is world wide pvp, except for mabye small, select areas in that zone. Kinda the opposite of tavern brawl pits. Now, I don't know how feasible that is for the programming for this game, but it doesn't seem like it would be that hard since they already can program certain areas to be pvp. The instance could be clearly marked, and possibly have a rule that you must stay in the zone 5 minutes unless you die, or something to that extent. Just to prevent people popping in, dropping a max/empowered/heightened/enlarged fireball and popping back to non-pvp zones.

Cendaer
07-15-2007, 12:05 AM
And this would be coming from an open mind?:rolleyes:

Actually, there is no where in this thread where I have claimed to have an open mind, is there?

Go roll your eyes at someone else, thank you.

And just so no one forgets, I will, again, post a link to the online petition which was being pushed by the pro-PvP camp from waaay back in beta.

http://www.petitiononline.com/pvpddo/petition.html

As you can see, there was an overwhelming response in favor of adding PvP to DDO back then. I'm sure you could garner just as much support for PvP if you were to start a fresh petition today.

:rolleyes:

Uska
07-15-2007, 05:46 AM
Then allow me to react how people react to me when I refer this game to the pencil and paper D&D - It's a totally different game. They would have left PvP specifically OUT of the game had that been their intention. But their intention was to leave it in, so obviously, there is some hope of later content, but NO ONE, not even 30 year vets, can say whether I am right or wrong about it.

Sure we can your wrong pvp will not add much to the game ddo wasnt designed for it so it can never be balanced without affecting core rules which is a bad idea pvp is fine in games designed for it from the start but ddo isnt one of those. If I had more time I would roll a bard on your server and show you what I mean you would die no save quaranted

Uska
07-15-2007, 05:47 AM
PVP helps the game grow because it increases player interaction. I've stuck with MMOs even after I've exhausted all the content because of the player interactions. Gives something to do rather than roll a new toon and run WW again, or kill Velah again, or kill the Stormreaver again, etc. After 10 times, the questing gets to be a drag. Add more player/player interaction. Just my opinion of course...

-HumanRogue

In other games yes here I dont think so

Vinos
07-15-2007, 10:03 AM
Talk about attitude. Dude he is just expressing an idea that is not forced on anyone. This game whether you agree or not is setup to appeal to a broad customer base. New ideas are what keeps games going....

Read ALL my posts before you start in on me. The post you quoted was when he was talking smack about how uber he was. Read the post that actually responed to his idea. Man I hate it when people like you pick out 1 post out of many and pass judgement.

Atreeson
07-15-2007, 11:46 AM
Sure we can your wrong pvp will not add much to the game ddo wasnt designed for it so it can never be balanced without affecting core rules which is a bad idea pvp is fine in games designed for it from the start but ddo isnt one of those. If I had more time I would roll a bard on your server and show you what I mean you would die no save quaranted

Don't make me laugh, really. I've fought many bards, and they don't stand a chance. If you think you're an exception, please explain how. Plus no matter how much you think you're right about this, you're not. It's still just your opinion, so don't act like you can tell the future.. Please.

Atreeson
07-15-2007, 11:59 AM
I'm not even going to explain the whole PvP server idea again because that'd be redundant, but I am going to mention that were there a server strictly for it, then the DDO you love so much on the server you already play on will not be affected by it. So why are you even complaining? There is no need to be against it, if you don't like it, then keep playing the game the way you want. However, if you are for more PvP in the game, then please share your thoughts. All you people say the same **** about why we shouldn't have PvP and it's roughly the same reasons, that wouldn't even affect the game were it set up the way I am saying.

Cendaer
07-15-2007, 12:01 PM
Sure we can your wrong pvp will not add much to the game ddo wasnt designed for it so it can never be balanced without affecting core rules which is a bad idea pvp is fine in games designed for it from the start but ddo isnt one of those. If I had more time I would roll a bard on your server and show you what I mean you would die no save quaranted


Don't make me laugh, really. I've fought many bards, and they don't stand a chance. If you think you're an exception, please explain how. Plus no matter how much you think you're right about this, you're not. It's still just your opinion, so don't act like you can tell the future.. Please.

Uska, all he's doing is boasting, he's not even paying attention to discussion points anymore. He's going rabid, and will soon start frothing at the mouth.

Quite typical of the pro-PvP mindset, IMO.

Vinos
07-15-2007, 12:14 PM
I'm not even going to explain the whole PvP server idea again because that'd be redundant, but I am going to mention that were there a server strictly for it, then the DDO you love so much on the server you already play on will not be affected by it. So why are you even complaining? There is no need to be against it, if you don't like it, then keep playing the game the way you want. However, if you are for more PvP in the game, then please share your thoughts. All you people say the same **** about why we shouldn't have PvP and it's roughly the same reasons, that wouldn't even affect the game were it set up the way I am saying.


You couldn't be more wrong. It would affect everyone becuase that is time spent coming up with a new server instead of time that could be spend on new conent. I am glad you have an idea but that is all it will ever be. DDO and PvP are not meant for each other and aside from them MAYBE fixing things like the leaderboard I don't see PvP getting any Dev love.

HumanRogue
07-15-2007, 12:57 PM
In other games yes here I dont think so

I respectfully disagree. There are obviously people that enjoy PvP here in DDO and may even be some that only hang around because of PvP. Keeps them interested and keeps them paying their monthly subscription, which is what helps the game grow, right?

Just my opinion but I think DDO has one of the BEST dynamics in which to PVP. Everyone can customize their character rather than forced into cookie-cutter builds. No need to change any core rules, no need to balance. It will balance itself... (Just my opinion of course.)

blah77
07-15-2007, 04:48 PM
Heh... this is getting amusing.

"Go play a game that is built around PvP"

"DDO isn't designed for PvP, other games are"

Pardon me but if you've made statements like those before, please go see a psychiatrist about your delusional issues. What Fantasy MMO do you people know that is built entirely around PvP? Sure, you can say that UO, DAoC, WoW and Warhammer Online all have significant PvP elements in it due to the storyline/setting but are they built around it? Uhh, not even close because none of these games require you to PvP in order to advance your character. Gasp, isn't that what PvP in DDO is like? Wow, imagine that.

In fact, I only know of one Fantasy MMO where PvP is almost required in order to advance your character. That game is Guild War (assuming you can even call it a MMO). Are you people really suggesting that all people who enjoy PvP should be exiled to that game? Sorry but I didn't know that the DDO subscriber base was an exclusive non-PvPer club. Or perhaps you people are advocating the exclusion of all PvPers from MMOs and lock them all up in the cage that is known as "FPS Games". You'll of course excuse me for laughing hysterically at that notion.

Lastly, let's not rehash the tired old argument of "but-but I have 20 years of PnP D&D under my belt and never did we do PvP in a campaign". Sorry but just because your choose to limit your imagination, it doesnt mean other people are bound by that as well. I certainly don't recognize such claims of authority over a game as diverse as D&D universe. In anycase, as many people have already said in many previous PvP related threads before, PvP can be done with PnP D&D rules. Balanced? No, of course not. Possible? You bet. The bottomline is that some people here need to give that snobbish attitude of "I am a D&D veteren so I know what's best for DDO" a rest. News flash, you don't know squat. You people want to talk about PvPer trashing talking and how bad their attiude is? Sorry but you're no better than the worst PvP trash talking offenders.

Shecky
07-15-2007, 06:09 PM
Heh... this is getting amusing.

"Go play a game that is built around PvP"

"DDO isn't designed for PvP, other games are"

Pardon me but if you've made statements like those before, please go see a psychiatrist about your delusional issues. What Fantasy MMO do you people know that is built entirely around PvP? Sure, you can say that UO, DAoC, WoW and Warhammer Online all have significant PvP elements in it due to the storyline/setting but are they built around it? Uhh, not even close because none of these games require you to PvP in order to advance your character. Gasp, isn't that what PvP in DDO is like? Wow, imagine that.

In fact, I only know of one Fantasy MMO where PvP is almost required in order to advance your character. That game is Guild War (assuming you can even call it a MMO). Are you people really suggesting that all people who enjoy PvP should be exiled to that game? Sorry but I didn't know that the DDO subscriber base was an exclusive non-PvPer club. Or perhaps you people are advocating the exclusion of all PvPers from MMOs and lock them all up in the cage that is known as "FPS Games". You'll of course excuse me for laughing hysterically at that notion.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm absolutely certain that I never mentioned any aspect of any link between character advancement and PvP (although it could be argued that any PvP-incorporating game that lets you loot player corpses DOES have such a link). In D&D, if you actually read the core books, nowhere is there any direct, in-depth treatment of PvP. In fact, the DMG mentions briefly how to stop (read carefully, now) conflicts between players. So if you want to use an extravagantly narrow interpretation of what people are saying in opposition to your views, and then overdramatize ("Or perhaps you people are advocating the exclusion of all PvPers from MMOs..." and "please go see a psychiatrist about your delusional issues" are nice little examples), at least try to confine it to the Overreactors Unanimous Club.


Lastly, let's not rehash the tired old argument of "but-but I have 20 years of PnP D&D under my belt and never did we do PvP in a campaign". Sorry but just because your choose to limit your imagination, it doesnt mean other people are bound by that as well. I certainly don't recognize such claims of authority over a game as diverse as D&D universe. In anycase, as many people have already said in many previous PvP related threads before, PvP can be done with PnP D&D rules. Balanced? No, of course not. Possible? You bet. The bottomline is that some people here need to give that snobbish attitude of "I am a D&D veteren so I know what's best for DDO" a rest. News flash, you don't know squat. You people want to talk about PvPer trashing talking and how bad their attiude is? Sorry but you're no better than the worst PvP trash talking offenders.

Sorry, but just because you choose to wallow in the lowest common denominator, it doesn't mean other people want to do that as well. And it is apparent that thou dost protest too much with the "snobbish attitude" bit. News flash, you don't know any more than the people at whom you hurled this toiletful of aspersions - are you saying that a few decades of experience do NOT mean that they know more about the subject than those who have not had that experience? And how you equate bad behavior to people protesting and wanting to exclude that bad behavior... I think you might want to do a little self-evaluation with that term you used, "delusional", firmly in mind.

HumanRogue
07-15-2007, 06:37 PM
Don't know about anyone else, but I remember going to the hobby store years ago and having PnP PvP fests (with strangers mind you) where everyone was allowed so much XP and so much gold worth of magic equipment to build their character and then battled it out. Was lots of fun. Did it change the way that I ran my PnP campaign? No, but was still fun to do using the D&D ruleset. But like I've said, I don't want full PvP where you get jumped while walking around town, just to get the PvP that has already been implemented to work a little better.

blah77
07-15-2007, 07:04 PM
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm absolutely certain that I never mentioned any aspect of any link between character advancement and PvP (although it could be argued that any PvP-incorporating game that lets you loot player corpses DOES have such a link).

How is a game suppose to be built around PvP if character advancement isn't tied to it directly? The main point here is that other games aren't "built around PvP" as many people have asserted in this thread as well as previous ones. That's the absurd notion which I'm shooting down. As for your corpse looting example, equipment is only one small aspect of the character development process thus it can not be used as a valid example of how a game is built around PvP. It's the same as if I were to claim that DDO is built around raids due to the inclusion of a handful of raid dungeons. Would that make sense to you?


In D&D, if you actually read the core books, nowhere is there any direct, in-depth treatment of PvP. In fact, the DMG mentions briefly how to stop (read carefully, now) conflicts between players.

Irrelevent. The simple fact is that nowhere in any D&D rulebook will you find that PvP is strictly forbidden. Until such a rule exists, claims such as "PvP not in the spirit of D&D" are just that, claims.

Nextly, using a negative term such as "player conflict" to describe PvP is a foolhardy and inaccurate approach at best. Have you taken any martial arts or self defense classes? Sparring matches don't necessarily degenerate into shouting matches or hurt feelings. It can be as much of a social experience as going out with a couple of friends to a movie. Equate that to DDO, I would even go as far as saying that the vast majority of my DDO PvP encounters have been just as friendly and sociable as my average PUG experience.


So if you want to use an extravagantly narrow interpretation of what people are saying in opposition to your views, and then overdramatize ("Or perhaps you people are advocating the exclusion of all PvPers from MMOs..." and "please go see a psychiatrist about your delusional issues" are nice little examples), at least try to confine it to the Overreactors Unanimous Club.

Please. Of all the PvP threads I've been involved in, the attitude of "go play another game if you want PvP" is the most common reason given by many PvP naysayers. If that isn't an attempt to exclude a certain segment of players from this game, what is? Overdramatize? I think not.


Sorry, but just because you choose to wallow in the lowest common denominator, it doesn't mean other people want to do that as well. And it is apparent that thou dost protest too much with the "snobbish attitude" bit. News flash, you don't know any more than the people at whom you hurled this toiletful of aspersions - are you saying that a few decades of experience do NOT mean that they know more about the subject than those who have not had that experience?

I'm not the one that made grandiose claims of how D&D isn't about PvP or how it has no place in DDO. The difference lies in the fact that I didn't try to state my opinions as facts. I just pointed out some logic loopholes in that argument which many PvP detractors were using.

As for experiences, sorry, that's not a valid issue here. The D&D experience of one person is based on his/her own small circle of PnP partners. That in itself by no means represent the experiences of the other such groups out there. I've said it before and I'll say it again. People have mentioned that PvP were allowed in their own PnP groups. Those experiences are just as valid as anyone elses.


And how you equate bad behavior to people protesting and wanting to exclude that bad behavior... I think you might want to do a little self-evaluation with that term you used, "delusional", firmly in mind.

I don't mince words nor do I feel the need to use diplomacy in this case. I'm not here to please some random anonymous person on the internet. If you can't handle the direct and blunt approach, that's not my problem. In anycase, this issue has been discussed 1000 times in 1000 different threads and it gets tiresome to see the same rhetorical argument every, single, time.

Edit: People are protesting to exclude that bad behavior you say? That would only be true if everyone involved in PvP is guilty of such behavior. A few bad apples does not represent the the entire PvP playerbase. If they want to exclude such behavior from the game, generalizing and labeling an entire segment of the DDO population isn't exactly the best approach. So, who's delusional now?

Atreeson
07-15-2007, 08:17 PM
Thank you Blah, finally someone who sees this exactly as myself.. You just happen to have a better vocab and knowledge of the rules ;).

Shecky
07-15-2007, 09:17 PM
How is a game suppose to be built around PvP if character advancement isn't tied to it directly? The main point here is that other games aren't "built around PvP" as many people have asserted in this thread as well as previous ones. That's the absurd notion which I'm shooting down. As for your corpse looting example, equipment is only one small aspect of the character development process thus it can not be used as a valid example of how a game is built around PvP. It's the same as if I were to claim that DDO is built around raids due to the inclusion of a handful of raid dungeons. Would that make sense to you?

Other games have PvP as an integral part of their makeup. Big difference between that and a "necessary" part of their makeup. Look at the quote you yourself wrote:


"DDO isn't designed for PvP, other games are"



Irrelevent. The simple fact is that nowhere in any D&D rulebook will you find that PvP is strictly forbidden. Until such a rule exists, claims such as "PvP not in the spirit of D&D" are just that, claims.

Not irrelevant. The simple fact is that nowhere in any D&D rulebook will you find that PvP is even addressed. Add to that the simple fact that the entirety of every D&D book is focused on PvE and you might understand why your reasoning of "it isn't forbidden" is faulty, not to mention the fact that I never said it was forbidden, just an utterly moot non-issue.


Nextly, using a negative term such as "player conflict" to describe PvP is a foolhardy and inaccurate approach at best. Have you taken any martial arts or self defense classes? Sparring matches don't necessarily degenerate into shouting matches or hurt feelings. It can be as much of a social experience as going out with a couple of friends to a movie. Equate that to DDO, I would even go as far as saying that the vast majority of my DDO PvP encounters have been just as friendly and sociable as my average PUG experience.

Again, you're wandering off topic; diversionary tactics are irrelevant here. I repeat: look in the DMG for the section that deals with how to handle and stop PC conflict.


Please. Of all the PvP threads I've been involved in, the attitude of "go play another game if you want PvP" is the most common reason given by many PvP naysayers. If that isn't an attempt to exclude a certain segment of players from this game, what is? Overdramatize? I think not.

They say that because the pushiest PvP proponents in this game (you know, the one in which 30-some years have had PvP as a completely unmentioned issue, save in how to stop it?) keep wanting to CHANGE the game. No, PvP isn't forbidden. But it IS at complete odds with the otherwise massively PvE-oriented game.


I'm not the one that made grandiose claims of how D&D isn't about PvP or how it has no place in DDO. The difference lies in the fact that I didn't try to state my opinions as facts. I just pointed out some logic loopholes in that argument which many PvP detractors were using.

Yet you are the one who made diversionary claims of "it isn't forbidden" and expected that to suffice as a "convincing" reason to develop and incorporate PvP. And as for "I didn't try to state my opinions as facts"... wow. :eek:


As for experiences, sorry, that's not a valid issue here. The D&D experience of one person is based on his/her own small circle of PnP partners. That in itself by no means represent the experiences of the other such groups out there. I've said it before and I'll say it again. People have mentioned that PvP were allowed in their own PnP groups. Those experiences are just as valid as anyone elses.

Yet the experience of the entire WORLD of D&D players IS a valid issue. Yes, some have included PvP in their own PnP groups. Some. Yet, in 30-some years of existence and evolution in the game of D&D, for some reason, it doesn't seem to have been a common enough occurrence to include in the rulebooks, except as something that needs to be handled and stopped. Now that's a valid point and is certainly indicative.


I don't mince words nor do I feel the need to use diplomacy in this case. I'm not here to please some random anonymous person on the internet. If you can't handle the direct and blunt approach, that's not my problem. In anycase, this issue has been discussed 1000 times in 1000 different threads and it gets tiresome to see the same rhetorical argument every, single, time.

There's a monstrous difference between "direct and blunt" and the way you're approaching it - adversarial, confrontational, dismissive, aspersive, etc. But I agree that it's tiresome to see the same rhetorical pseudo-logical arguments in each of those 1000 different threads. So why do you continue with those "it's not forbidden" arguments?


Edit: People are protesting to exclude that bad behavior you say? That would only be true if everyone involved in PvP is guilty of such behavior. A few bad apples does not represent the the entire PvP playerbase. If they want to exclude such behavior from the game, generalizing and labeling an entire segment of the DDO population isn't exactly the best approach. So, who's delusional now?

Yet it seems that every time someone starts to talk about PvP, the nasty little "carebear" comments and their ilk come out. A few bad apples in every bushel means that there's something wrong with that entire crop and it needs to be fixed.

*sigh* I told myself I shouldn't get involved in the PvP threads again, yet here I am. I should know better than to try to illustrate 30-some years of a non-issue to people who simply refuse to hear it. Good-bye and keep fooling yourself; I won't be hearing what you say starting in about 15 seconds after I hit "Submit Reply".

KristovK
07-15-2007, 10:13 PM
Nicely put Shecky, nicely put. I pointed out that the books state that evil isn't for player alignment it's for NPCs..but of course that's irrelevent. You point out that the books state how to STOP PvP from happening but that's also irrelevent. Oddly enough, everything that actually IS printed about D&D which clearly states that PvP isn't part of the game is irrelevent...at least to all the people who insist PvP is an integral part of the game.

Blah77, there ARE games out, MMOs no less, wherein PvP IS the entire point of the game and an integral part of character development and advancement. I even mentioned one myself, Planetside. I see a number of MMOs who's entire point is PvP in development now, Conan and Fury being two that spring to mind, with others coming along as well(E3 updates..go check em..won't find much info since there's little there, MMOs are having their own show in August), all based purely on PvP as the centerpiece of the gaming experience. Some are fantasy, some are sci-fi and some are sci-fantasy, so there's plenty out there for the PvPer to pick from. Atreeson's own statements in this thread point out his ideal of a good MMO...no questing, no grinding, just PvP. He's obviously in the wrong game in that case but he insists the game be changed for HIS personal choice in what a game should be. Those of us opposing his opinion are pointing to the FACTS..the game DDO wasn't designed with PvP in mind at all. D&D is a game without PvP as part of the design and even tells you how to STOP IT from occuring. Now, kindly show me...who's actually got a foot to stand on here.

Once again, I am NOT anti-PvP, I enjoy it in games designed with it in mind or directly around it. I play DDO because it is NOT one of those games and I don't look for PvP in DDO for that very reason, nor did I wish to see it added. I do some PvP in DDO but it's something I do just for giggles, there's no skill involved despite all protestations to contrary. I'm glad some of you might have learned a bit about the game you never figured out doing quests, but that's not a selling point for PvP, that's a negative point for you, especially when the 'skills' you picked up are on the loading screens....

Gimpster
07-15-2007, 10:30 PM
Yes, some have included PvP in their own PnP groups. Some. Yet, in 30-some years of existence and evolution in the game of D&D, for some reason, it doesn't seem to have been a common enough occurrence to include in the rulebooks, except as something that needs to be handled and stopped. Now that's a valid point and is certainly indicative.
Actually, there are rulebooks based on players combating each others' characters, often for a simplistic positional victory in a repeatable one-shot scenario with no impact on ongoing campaigns. The most recent name of that rulebook is D&D Miniatures Handbook.

It is notable that DDO's PvP doesn't follow the principles of Mini Handbook very closely. For example, a key gameplay principle is that rather than using complex PC classes with a variety of weird equipment, you use a list of monster possibilities that are individually simple, but balanced against each other so victory is more about tactics or luck than better gear or better builds.

blah77
07-15-2007, 10:31 PM
Other games have PvP as an integral part of their makeup. Big difference between that and a "necessary" part of their makeup.

Really? How many MMOs have you played in the past? Of all the MMOs I've played, none of which required you to partake in PvP. In fact, it is much like DDO where a player can completely ignore PvP if he/she chose to. Integral? Yeah... sure... whatever you say *wink*.


Not irrelevant. The simple fact is that nowhere in any D&D rulebook will you find that PvP is even addressed. Add to that the simple fact that the entirety of every D&D book is focused on PvE and you might understand why your reasoning of "it isn't forbidden" is faulty, not to mention the fact that I never said it was forbidden, just an utterly moot non-issue.

Oh, I can think of several possible reasons why PvP isn't singled out and addressed in the rule books. One reason would be "PvP is up to the discretion of the players and the DM" since well, I think most PnP player are independent enough to be able to think on their own. Would you consider a concept this simple to be unrealistic or unfounded?


Again, you're wandering off topic; diversionary tactics are irrelevant here. I repeat: look in the DMG for the section that deals with how to handle and stop PC conflict.

Diversionary? What? I was responding to your little insert about the DM guide has a section about resolving player "conflicts". The way you presented that statement gave the word "conflict" a negative undertone which I do not believe is the case at all. If I was off-topic then it was because of you.


They say that because the pushiest PvP proponents in this game (you know, the one in which 30-some years have had PvP as a completely unmentioned issue, save in how to stop it?) keep wanting to CHANGE the game. No, PvP isn't forbidden. But it IS at complete odds with the otherwise massively PvE-oriented game.

I must've missed something here. DDO is already drastically different from PnP from the very beginning. Change the game you claim? Uh, that's been done already. In fact, one can even argue that the fast paced real time style of DDO is completely at odds with the slow paced turn based style of PnP. This is not to mention that the mouse twitching combat style of DDO is eerily similiar to all those first person shooter games.

Secondly, one could even argue that certain aspects of PnP D&D already revolves around PvP. After all, last I checked a DM is a human being. He's the one controlling the mobs/npcs not unlike how the players are controlling their own characters. This is especially true with the 3.0/3.5 edition rules in which the DM outfit and develop many monsters/npcs much in the same way a player would build his own character.


Yet you are the one who made diversionary claims of "it isn't forbidden" and expected that to suffice as a "convincing" reason to develop and incorporate PvP. And as for "I didn't try to state my opinions as facts"... wow. :eek:

Heh, I don't need to convince you or anyone else for that matter. What I've said in this thread are mostly common sense. You know, lessons like:

1. You don't judge a whole group of people based on the behaviors of the few.
2. The experiences of the few do not always represent the experiences of a entire population.


Yet the experience of the entire WORLD of D&D players IS a valid issue. Yes, some have included PvP in their own PnP groups. Some. Yet, in 30-some years of existence and evolution in the game of D&D, for some reason, it doesn't seem to have been a common enough occurrence to include in the rulebooks, except as something that needs to be handled and stopped. Now that's a valid point and is certainly indicative.

Again, do you need a rule book to outline every single aspect of a game and tell you how to deal with it? Do you need to have someone constantly looking over your shoulder to tell you what to do with every situation that crops up? That doesn't sound like the D&D I used to play where imagination, thinking on the fly and bending the rules when necessary actually counts for something. But then, that's just me. However, I do know that I would never want a "100% by the book or else" DM in a *game* that's suppose to be *entertaining*. God knows I had enough of that in the military.


There's a monstrous difference between "direct and blunt" and the way you're approaching it - adversarial, confrontational, dismissive, aspersive, etc. But I agree that it's tiresome to see the same rhetorical pseudo-logical arguments in each of those 1000 different threads. So why do you continue with those "it's not forbidden" arguments?

I think I've used the "not forbidden" example a total of 3-4 times in the many PvP threads I've posted in. It is a far cry from the dozen or so obligatory "go play another game if you want PvP" posts that you see pop up in each and every single one of these threads. Major difference.


Yet it seems that every time someone starts to talk about PvP, the nasty little "carebear" comments and their ilk come out. A few bad apples in every bushel means that there's something wrong with that entire crop and it needs to be fixed.

How convienently for you to place the blame on one group of people. I guess the PvP detractors that keep chiming in about how PvP sucks and shouldn't be allowed to exist in any capacity aren't in the slightest bit responsible for fanning the flame? If you want to "fix" the pro-PvP crowd, you had better do some house cleaning on your own first. I guess this all goes back to the delusion of how some DDO players believe that they're more "mature" than those WoW kiddies.


*sigh* I told myself I shouldn't get involved in the PvP threads again, yet here I am. I should know better than to try to illustrate 30-some years of a non-issue to people who simply refuse to hear it. Good-bye and keep fooling yourself; I won't be hearing what you say starting in about 15 seconds after I hit "Submit Reply".

Good for you. Frankly, this is a simple case of agree to disagree. My viewpoints are what they are and so are yours. The only one fooling himself is the one that actually believes his viewpoints are more correct and more D&D-like than the other persons.

bandyman1
07-15-2007, 10:31 PM
PvP a lot myself, I think the strongest argument against it is simply this; DDO was marketed as NOT having PvP. Developing what they did should have been enough for those who felt it must be included in an MMO. We already have a bored player base. That is evident to anyone. Any development time Turbine has should be spent on fixing bugs and new content, period. I agree Atreeson that your idea has merit, but if you take the peeps who are ****ed about lack of content now, and let them see that the developers are willing to spend their time on PvP, then I think you will see a drastic decrease in subs. Sorry if that's not what you wanna hear, but that's just common sense.

KristovK
07-15-2007, 10:57 PM
Actually, there are rulebooks based on players combating each others' characters, often for a simplistic positional victory in a repeatable one-shot scenario with no impact on ongoing campaigns. The most recent name of that rulebook is D&D Miniatures Handbook.

It is notable that DDO's PvP doesn't follow the principles of Mini Handbook very closely. For example, a key gameplay principle is that rather than using complex PC classes with a variety of weird equipment, you use a list of monster possibilities that are individually simple, but balanced against each other so victory is more about tactics or luck than better gear or better builds.

Heh..funny....I remember using those rules in the early 80s for doing massive battles between the 'good guys'(the players) and the 'bad guys'(npc army), had nothing to do with PvP. Commander, Cavalry, Archers and so on, very simplistic and easy to do..still took hours and hours to play out a battle but it was a WHOLE lot easier then trying to run a battle between 2000 orc grunts/1400 ogre shocktroops/1500 manticores vs 3000 1st level human grunts/2000 elven rangers/1000 5th level human paladins on mounts and so on...you want to try to do the combat rolls for THAT? Gods forbid you actually draw up the sheets for each of those units...ugh. So we got the Miniatures rules and that really made doing epic battles possible..and mostly feasible(took us an entire 3 day weekend to do our first battle...that was fun and extremely annoying at times 'dude, you just stepped on the cavarly' 'oh ****, I paid 15 bucks for those pieces!'). Sorry Gimp, those rules weren't developed for or based on PvP, they were a natural outcome of the huge miniature market at the time(gods..I must have had 1500 individual pieces myself at one time..all hand painted), combined with the huge gaming market already existing for scale combat re-enactments from the Civil War to WWII to Battletech to Warhammer and WH40k.

blah77
07-15-2007, 11:07 PM
Nicely put Shecky, nicely put. I pointed out that the books state that evil isn't for player alignment it's for NPCs..but of course that's irrelevent. You point out that the books state how to STOP PvP from happening but that's also irrelevent. Oddly enough, everything that actually IS printed about D&D which clearly states that PvP isn't part of the game is irrelevent...at least to all the people who insist PvP is an integral part of the game.

Uh, I believe that he said the book suggested ways to resolve player conflicts. That is not the same as stopping PvP. There are plenty of PnP scenerios where PvP is the more *likely* alternative as opposed to talking it out. Do you think that a Lawful Good Dwarven Paladin is going to agree with a Chaotic Neutral Half-Orc Barbarian all the time? Is it really that inconcievable for those differences to come to blows at times? We're not talking about the United Nations here. We're talking about a world where it's literally kill or be killed. If the D&D system is flexible enough to allow that kind of party make-up, why is it inconcievable for PvP situations to rise up?

Lastly, I never suggested that PvP is an integral part of DDO or D&D. I only suggested that it is a possibility. Please don't try to put words into my mouth.


Blah77, there ARE games out, MMOs no less, wherein PvP IS the entire point of the game and an integral part of character development and advancement. I even mentioned one myself, Planetside.

Planetside is a sci-fi MMO/FPS hybrid game. It isn't a pure MMO. This is not to mention that not all fantasy fans may like the sci-fi game genre.

Here, I'll even give you a run down of the brief MMO history as I see it. UO was the first true MMO that had extensive PvP. However it was poorly done and most players became disgusted with it. Following big name MMOs such as Everquest 1&2, AC 1&2, WoW and most recently Vanguard/LOTRO more or less banished PvP to a fringe existance or just did not include it like Final Fantasy XI. Now, when I said banish, I didn't mean excluded. It is more like placing restrictions such as setting up PvP servers, zones or making it so consensual agreement has to occur before any PvP action. This is what people refer to when they say "traditional MMO". Sure, there have been major MMOs such as Linage 2, Guildwars and DAoC that focused on PvP a bit more but those never even came close to grabbing a significant chunk of the MMO subscription pie, at least in the U.S.

In anycase, it is not until recently did the PvP trend started to climb its way back into the mainstream MMO genre with new games on the horizon such as Warhammer Online, Age of Conan and Guildwar 2. These games will offer ways for players to advance their characters solely through PvP (or so advertised) which were not available to the aforementioned games. That in my book is what building a MMO around PvP means.


I see a number of MMOs who's entire point is PvP in development now, Conan and Fury being two that spring to mind, with others coming along as well(E3 updates..go check em..won't find much info since there's little there, MMOs are having their own show in August), all based purely on PvP as the centerpiece of the gaming experience. Some are fantasy, some are sci-fi and some are sci-fantasy, so there's plenty out there for the PvPer to pick from.

If it's still in development then how is it a realistic alternative for people who may enjoy PvP right now?


Those of us opposing his opinion are pointing to the FACTS..the game DDO wasn't designed with PvP in mind at all. D&D is a game without PvP as part of the design and even tells you how to STOP IT from occuring. Now, kindly show me...who's actually got a foot to stand on here.

This is not a fact. Fact is something that is explicitly stated and established with no room for deviation or alternate explanation. The Japanese Imperial Navy attacked the U.S. Pacific fleet on December 7th, 1941 is a fact. Yuri Gagarin was the first human in space is a fact. How is "no PvP in D&D" a fact when people have had PvP encounters in their PnP groups? Even with my limited PnP experience, I've had the chance to come across that. The word you're really looking for is not fact but rather "thoery" which has the possibility to be wrong.

Lastly, I'm not saying that I support the OP's position or ideals. What I am supporting is the possibility for PvP to occur in a D&D based environment because frankly, I believe that to be true. As a result, I am dead set against anyone who would make wild claims about how PvP has no place in DDO or D&D in general.

KristovK
07-16-2007, 12:16 AM
Blah, these PvPers picking DDO, a game advertised as NOT having PvP, and demanding that it be added makes no sense..but it happened. Now they are demanding that it be made...more. Again, makes no sense, but it's what is happening. Makes more sense to me to go play a game specifically designed for PvP, but I tend to think logically, silly me huh?

Planetside is ONE of the MMOs currently out that are built around PvP, not the only one. There's a number of titles that you can buy and play based out of Korean and Japan that are fantasy and sci-fantasy as well as sci-fi, all MMOs and all PvP-centric. They tend to bomb in the US and European markets though, seems the demand for a PvP-centric game isn't all that big in them...who'd a thunk it.

I play DDO because it doesn't offer PvP(didn't when I bought it at least) and it's an MMO based on D&D, which also doesn't offer PvP as part of the design. Nice trying to twist the meaning of 'resolve player conflicts' to not mean stop them, but that IS clearly what the rules attempt to do, STOP PvP from occuring in PnP. Yes, you can do it, you can do anything you want in PnP, that's all to clear when reading the memoirs of the players of PnP over the past 30+years. I've talked to people who had characters who had more classes then they had levels..don't ask me HOW they did that, but hey, it's PnP, you can do what you want! Merlask herself describes her own PnP experiences which seem to always include players killing players, how that's entertaining is a bit beyond me, but that's not my style either, as I said, evil based campaigns are self limiting off the bat and are prohibited by the rules, which again seems to mean nothing, you can do what you want! Which makes me ask the question...why in the nine hells do you bother with the rules if you are going to ignore any rule which you don't happen to agree with? Maybe it's just me, but I was always taught that part of the entire concept of a game was that it had rules and that the rules were meant to be followed as they defined the game you were playing. I was always taught that people without full mental abilities were the ones who ignored the rules and did what they wanted anyway, that the lack of self control so clearly shown by these actions is an obvious sign of mental issues or possible physiological damage...anti-social behavoir...sociopath...those were the terms used by my prof in college actually. Yes there are times when going against the rules is proper and called for, but in a game...please, that's a purely selfish thing, there's no injustice, oppression or evil going on there, it's a GAME. You can try and color it however you want..imagination, thinking outside the box, freedom to create...it's a simple selfish motivation for self appeasement because you want something you can't get otherwise within the context of the game's rules.

And yes, DDO has deviated from the PnP rules in some aspects, that's a natural by-product of making a game meant for small groups of people playing together in a turn based enviroment into an MMO in real time. Want the closest thing to PnP on a computer you can get...try NWN or NWN2 or Baldur's Gate or one of the games of that ilk. RP doesn't exist in those any more then it does in DDO, but they are all turn based and tend to follow the D&D rules of the time of their creation(2.0 for BG and it's sequels, 3 for NWN and 3.5 for NWN2) with some variations for the translation to a computer format without an active DM presence. And you'll find PvP isn't built into ANY of them, it can be done in NWN and NWN2, but that's optional depending on the ruleset you pick, friendly fire on or off, they were NOT designed with PvP in them. DDO wasn't designed with PvP in it, friendly is off, no option on that, and PvP was only added after some mixed reviews panned the game for not having PvP, which is supposedly a mainstay for any good MMO...which is funny since all the PvP-centric MMOs released so far have bombed in the US/European markets, go figure.

blah77
07-16-2007, 02:02 AM
Blah, these PvPers picking DDO, a game advertised as NOT having PvP, and demanding that it be added makes no sense..but it happened. Now they are demanding that it be made...more. Again, makes no sense, but it's what is happening. Makes more sense to me to go play a game specifically designed for PvP, but I tend to think logically, silly me huh?

It was advertised as not having PvP but I don't recall ever hearing Turbine say "we will never ever add PvP under any circumstances". I only heard them say "PvP isn't part of the plan at this moment". Even so, I think you're exaggerating the issue somewhat. DDO isn't specifically designed for PvP. It will never be designed for PvP. Whatever changes they implement to fix PvP, it will continue to remain a small part of the game. With that in mind, your fear of playing a game specifically designed for PvP is unfounded. However, what is clear is that Turbine introduced a half broken PvP system. It is not unreasonable for people who wish to partake in that system to expect it to be fixed. Do you tolerate cell phone service that only works half the time? What if your electric company can't supply you with power 24/7? No one expects a company they pay money to only do things half-way nor should they be satisfied with it.


Planetside is ONE of the MMOs currently out that are built around PvP, not the only one. There's a number of titles that you can buy and play based out of Korean and Japan that are fantasy and sci-fantasy as well as sci-fi, all MMOs and all PvP-centric. They tend to bomb in the US and European markets though, seems the demand for a PvP-centric game isn't all that big in them...who'd a thunk it.

Hmm, I seem to recall listing Linage 2 in my previous post as one of the games that is more PvP friendly so yes I am aware of that thanks. However, your analysis as to why they're not breaking into the U.S. market is inaccurate and frankly, simple-minded to a fault. Maybe you don't realize this but there's a large chunk of the U.S. consumer market that is very xenophobic when it comes to foreign products. This is especially true when it comes to entertainment products such as movies, music, or games. Trying to get your average american MMO fan to play a game where the majority of the population doesn't even speak their language is a hurdle that even the best marketing can't necessarily overcome. It would take something completely revolutionary and novel to grab hold of the consumer's attention but in all honesty, nothing in the current MMO market is really revolutionary anymore, foreign or domestic. That's the fundamental reason why foreign games can have a hard time breaking into the U.S. market unless it has already spent years or even decades building up a fan base such as Final Fantasy. This is simple business strategy/obstacles that apply to many fields, not just computer games. This is not to mention that ever since the introduction of UO and EQ, the U.S. MMO market has became so saturated to the point that there's little breathing room. It makes it even harder for new games (much less foreign ones) to take subscribers away from established games unless it has fulfilled the criterias I've already mentioned above.


I play DDO because it doesn't offer PvP(didn't when I bought it at least) and it's an MMO based on D&D, which also doesn't offer PvP as part of the design. Nice trying to twist the meaning of 'resolve player conflicts' to not mean stop them, but that IS clearly what the rules attempt to do, STOP PvP from occuring in PnP.

What rule are you referring to? I've yet to hear anyone quote a passage from any D&D rule book that forbids player conflicts. Until someone does that in a "factual" way instead of just being theoretical, I'm going to call BS on that one.

As for me twisting that statement, nice try. It's simple logic that if you put a couple of people with different objectives, ideals and moral guidelines together, you WILL eventually have to deal with conflicts. The D&D system doesn't just allow for such a grouping to exist, it in fact encourages it given the millions of examples of awkward group dynamics due to class, race or character background.


Yes, you can do it, you can do anything you want in PnP, that's all to clear when reading the memoirs of the players of PnP over the past 30+years. I've talked to people who had characters who had more classes then they had levels..don't ask me HOW they did that, but hey, it's PnP, you can do what you want! Merlask herself describes her own PnP experiences which seem to always include players killing players, how that's entertaining is a bit beyond me, but that's not my style either,

That's the beauty of fantasy, isn't it? To me, D&D rule books provides a set of guidelines to follow. These are just your basic guidelines such as classes, combat&spell system, character progression and so on. As for other things such as campaign development and character roleplaying elements, those are entirely up to the players and the DM. THOSE are the things which allows for PvP to occur, not what feats/spells you picked for your characters or how well you can roll the dice. You can stay perfectly within the D&D core rules and still have PvP occur at your own discretion. Lastly, you don't have to like the way some people play their characters or how some DMs build their campaigns but you will respect it because it is their choice.


as I said, evil based campaigns are self limiting off the bat and are prohibited by the rules, which again seems to mean nothing, you can do what you want!

Why is this relevent? Since when do conflicts only occur in a good vs evil setting? Good people can often take up arms against eachother. It could be a matter of principle, honor, pride or something as simple as following orders. For every WWII where the line between good and evil is drawn clearly (even then you'd have a hard time considering the Stalinist government as the *good guys*), there are a dozen Israeli-Arab conflicts where good and evil is based on perspective and propaganda. The world isn't as black and white as you think so why should a fantasy world be like that?


Which makes me ask the question...why in the nine hells do you bother with the rules if you are going to ignore any rule which you don't happen to agree with? Maybe it's just me, but I was always taught that part of the entire concept of a game was that it had rules and that the rules were meant to be followed as they defined the game you were playing. I was always taught that people without full mental abilities were the ones who ignored the rules and did what they wanted anyway, that the lack of self control so clearly shown by these actions is an obvious sign of mental issues or possible physiological damage...anti-social behavoir...sociopath...those were the terms used by my prof in college actually. Yes there are times when going against the rules is proper and called for, but in a game...please, that's a purely selfish thing, there's no injustice, oppression or evil going on there, it's a GAME. You can try and color it however you want..imagination, thinking outside the box, freedom to create...it's a simple selfish motivation for self appeasement because you want something you can't get otherwise within the context of the game's rules.

That's a long paragraph of non-sensical babbling about something that's not even relevent. Don't even attempt to psycho analyze me or try to educate me on the social dynamics within a population group. To put it plainly, you're not qualified for it.

In anycase, no one is breaking any D&D rules when they go PvP against eachother. Again I ask, show me a passage from any core D&D rules that specifically states that PvP or player conflicts are not allowed within the D&D setting. I don't want conjectures. I don't want interpretations. I don't want suggestions. Those mean nothing in the grand scheme of things because the core of this debate is whether D&D allows for the possibility of PvP, not whether you think it does or not.

TechNoFear
07-16-2007, 02:39 AM
PvP a lot myself, I think the strongest argument against it is simply this; DDO was marketed as NOT having PvP. Developing what they did should have been enough for those who felt it must be included in an MMO. We already have a bored player base. That is evident to anyone. Any development time Turbine has should be spent on fixing bugs and new content, period. I agree Atreeson that your idea has merit, but if you take the peeps who are ****ed about lack of content now, and let them see that the developers are willing to spend their time on PvP, then I think you will see a drastic decrease in subs. Sorry if that's not what you wanna hear, but that's just common sense.

QFT

As one paying customer....

I do not play PvP.
I do not want more/better PvP.

If any development time is put into PvP before;
content,
bug fixes,
content,
lvl cap increases
or content,

I will leave.

I currently only pay for one sub and that is all my opinion is worth.

blah77
07-16-2007, 02:49 AM
Oh, one more thing. Speaking of selfishness.


I am NOT anti-PvP, I enjoy it in games designed with it in mind or directly around it.


I play DDO because it is NOT one of those games and I don't look for PvP in DDO for that very reason, nor did I wish to see it added.


I play DDO because it doesn't offer PvP.


I was always taught that part of the entire concept of a game was that it had rules and that the rules were meant to be followed as they defined the game you were playing.

Do those quotes look familiar to you? That's four quotes from the only two posts you've written on this page alone. The one thing all those quotes have in comment is that they all included *I* statements that suggests DDO should conform to your ideals of what D&D is like but also gaming in general. Personally, I don't think you have any room to accuse anyone else of being selfish but that's just me.

KristovK
07-16-2007, 03:57 AM
Oh, one more thing. Speaking of selfishness.









Do those quotes look familiar to you? That's four quotes from the only two posts you've written on this page alone. The one thing all those quotes have in comment is that they all included *I* statements that suggests DDO should conform to your ideals of what D&D is like but also gaming in general. Personally, I don't think you have any room to accuse anyone else of being selfish but that's just me.

Uh...statements of why I like DDO aren't selfish, they simply give the reasons I picked DDO as a game. And the last quote is a statement of what I was taught games are and how they work. How exactly these lines are supposed to be selfish is beyond me, but whatever, you also refute the DMG giving directions on how to avoid PvP, and you insist that because PnP has multiple alignments and classes it actively encourages PvP. Circular logic, amazing stuff, but you keep on chasing your own tail.

Ken_Dorak
07-16-2007, 08:53 AM
But anyway, I think for a more realistic sense, more calling of skill, and overall, more satisfying (in my opinion), we need come together and speak up about our thoughts on PvP (excluding the people against it because you all say the same **** like a broken record) so we can bring a new exciting part to the game without hardly changing anything. Just think about it, dont be closed minded.

Well, since I fall into the supposed category of those who are "against PvP" (even though I'm not), I'll simply ask this:


excluding the people against it because you all say the same **** like a broken record

Perhaps we say the same thing over and over again because it has some merit?

Ziggy
07-16-2007, 09:21 AM
checks the title of the thread again.

PVP - Opinions are all we have.

hmmm.... so you guys are getting angry at each other and saying your correct in a thread that says oppinions are all we have......

hmmmm......:D

like i said. i dont think we should have had PVP added, but since we do the devs should fix the PvP to work correctly(deathmatch/CTF)

Shecky
07-17-2007, 09:43 AM
Nicely put Shecky, nicely put. *snip*

Dammit, KristovK, when did we start agreeing??? *shakes fist menacingly* :D

Mizyrlou
07-17-2007, 10:49 AM
It's been a while since I've poked into one of these threads. I am still in the anti-PvP segment only for the reason that PvP always tends to bring the worst out of people. One just has to look in the threads here or better yet, over on WoW to see evidence.

When PvP started here, I did try it during it's initial week and loathed it because of the ganking. Swore I'd never try that again.

But many months later, a guildie asked for someone to join him over in a PvP because he wanted to test out some spells and gear. I figured to help him out and soon we had other friends join us. It was actually quite fun and a vastly different experience than my earlier go in the arena.

With all that said, I am still pretty much against PvP because of the worst it can bring out in people, but using it as a tool to work out strategy, test out spells and gear, then it's really rather nice as it is.