PDA

View Full Version : Duel wielding throwing weapons?



Daze
07-13-2007, 11:58 AM
Any chance of this happening?

Throwing weapon speed doesnt increase much (if at all) with BAB increase. Quickdraw is a joke (I dont see the increase in throwing speed at all and it is supposed to be on par with rapid shot)

Doesnt make much sense with a bow, crossbow or heavy repeater. As you need 2 hands to operate them. Not so with a throwing dagger.

Throwing weapons are extremely underpowered. The ability to duel wield them might make a halfling thrower more viable. (If not more popular)

Having the same penalty as with melee weapons and using the same feats to reduce that penalty (not sure how the extra attacks would work out) would also seem viable.

Shaamis
07-13-2007, 12:04 PM
If DDO sticks to the PnP rules, I'd say no, but I have no problem with a Gambit-stlye throwing specialist.

Rangers have multishot, why can't throwing specialists have multi shot with thrown weapons?

The outrageaous DRs some of these mobs have make throwing spec's worthless, it's evident enough to see.

I have played since head start, and I have see none. ever. she was 3rd or 4th level. I'm pretty sure she probably re-rolled when sh egot close to 6th level

Daze
07-13-2007, 12:08 PM
With throwing weapons themselves getting a revamp. It is possible to get throwing weapons that get past DR ... excpet for those barbarian types that have dr/-

With the revamp in throwing weapons ... maybe we should make the associated feats more usefull as well. Quickdraw really is useless. Although it says it increases throwing speed ....


Maybe I should submit a bug report.

skraus1
07-13-2007, 01:19 PM
Like all of ranged combat, they are very very gimped. However, they are the gimpiest of the ranged family and need some love if the designers want anyone, ever, to make a throwing character.

And yes, you can do twf with throwing weapons in pnp.

Mad_Bombardier
07-13-2007, 02:05 PM
Brutal Throw (use STR for to-hit instead of DEX) and Power Throw (Power Attack for thrown weapons) are also both necessary for decent throwing DPS.

sigtrent
07-13-2007, 02:49 PM
They could definately add soem thrown weapon feats, but two weapon fighting is specificaly a melee thing in the rules. It offers no advantage wtih thrown weapons.

Ithrani
07-13-2007, 04:44 PM
Power Throw (use STR for to-hit instead of DEX) and Brutal Throw (Power Attack for thrown weapons) are also both necessary for decent throwing DPS.

Brutal Throw adds your STR instead of Dex to attack, and power throw uses power attack.

Ithrani
07-13-2007, 04:56 PM
They could definately add soem thrown weapon feats, but two weapon fighting is specificaly a melee thing in the rules. It offers no advantage wtih thrown weapons.

Two-Weapon Fighting [General]

You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite

Dex 15.
Benefit

Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
Normal

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Special

A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

I don't see anything about melee there. Oh wait I found something about Two Weapon fighting in the combat section:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

* If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
* The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons

You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons

The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

ummmmm what was that about TWF not working with thrown weapons?


Just a heads up, in PnP you cannot make more then 1 attack with thrown weapon unless you have quick draw, And in DDO it kinda speeds it up but not much. And Rapid Shot works with Thrown weapons because it states RANGED attacks, bot bows, not arrows, meaning anything ranged applies.

Talon_Moonshadow
07-13-2007, 05:23 PM
I've tried to make decent ranged fighters of all types, including a halfling thrower.......they all suck.....even the good ones. Rate of fire is just too low compared to melee. Sad but true....really wish there was room for creative builds in this game. :(

Daze
07-13-2007, 05:24 PM
I've tried rapid shot with throwers ... it doesnt work


if you look in the FAQ portion of this site under rapid shot it will tell you it doesnt work with thrown weapons.

Talon_Moonshadow
07-13-2007, 05:27 PM
I've tried rapid shot with throwers ... it doesnt work


if you look in the FAQ portion of this site under rapid shot it will tell you it doesnt work with thrown weapons.

I tried it too....but couldn't tell if it worked or not (probably means it didn't)

Talon_Moonshadow
07-13-2007, 05:31 PM
I've tried rapid shot with throwers ... it doesnt work


if you look in the FAQ portion of this site under rapid shot it will tell you it doesnt work with thrown weapons.

This is going to seem really naive........uhm.....what FAQ portion? I've tried to determine from the vague language used in the handbook as to what exactly each feat does.....and I can't. Plus it seems the devs never answer those kinds of questions......so I'm left with experimenting and hoping I stumble upon something thayt works.

Talon_Moonshadow
07-13-2007, 05:35 PM
Nevermind.....founf the FAQ's.....still looking for one that gives me any real info though.

Daze
07-13-2007, 05:39 PM
FAQ is here (http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=77&siid=30)

just type in rapid shot and press go



Does the passive feat Rapid Shot affect thrown weapons?
No. In DDO Rapid Shot is not applied to thrown weapons and has no effect on them.

Ithrani
07-13-2007, 05:43 PM
Because the made a classification out of throwning weapons known as "thrown" and Rapid Shot says it works with "Ranged" another distinction that turbine created. In PnP ranged means any weapon that have a range increment. Turbine loves to make changes to make coding and other things simpler but not use their heads when they do so.

Snagger
07-14-2007, 02:04 PM
Have you ever tried to throw two baseballs, one baseball in each hand, at the same time?

It doesn't work very well.... at all. Which is probably why there are not any dual handed throwing sports in RL.

Hedd
07-14-2007, 02:37 PM
If DDO sticks to the PnP rules, I'd say no, but I have no problem with a Gambit-stlye throwing specialist.

Pg 160 under the Two Weapon Fighting section, very bottom. Bold letters THROWN WEAPONS.

If DDO sticks to PnP, a double thrower should be in game.

Book thumping out of the way I have a theory that its not that thrown weapons aren't effected by some of the feats as much as thrown weapons might hit some sort of speed cap. I've done some experimenting with it on my thrower trying to figure out if it was worth levelin it up any and found all the feats having...some...effect, though minor after a certain point. At level 4 with rapid shot and quick draw it's throwing as fast as a lvl 14. So if the ranged advancement BAB speed applies it SHOULD get faster as you level. But reports say it doesn't. I applied haste to this lvl 4 thrower and found only incremenal increasements. There's a major issue with the way thrown weapons are handled in the mechanics and I bet its an awkward code to play with.

Ithrani
07-14-2007, 06:19 PM
Pg 160 under the Two Weapon Fighting section, very bottom. Bold letters THROWN WEAPONS.

If DDO sticks to PnP, a double thrower should be in game.

Book thumping out of the way I have a theory that its not that thrown weapons aren't effected by some of the feats as much as thrown weapons might hit some sort of speed cap. I've done some experimenting with it on my thrower trying to figure out if it was worth levelin it up any and found all the feats having...some...effect, though minor after a certain point. At level 4 with rapid shot and quick draw it's throwing as fast as a lvl 14. So if the ranged advancement BAB speed applies it SHOULD get faster as you level. But reports say it doesn't. I applied haste to this lvl 4 thrower and found only incremenal increasements. There's a major issue with the way thrown weapons are handled in the mechanics and I bet its an awkward code to play with.

I posted both rules did everyone before Hedd miss it? Please read a thread before continuing to confuse people by posting silliness. Hedd knows what he is talking about; the rules are posted about 5 post back.

"Have you ever tried to throw two baseballs, one baseball in each hand, at the same time?

It doesn't work very well.... at all. Which is probably why there are not any dual handed throwing sports in RL."

You do not throw at the same time in PnP, each attack happens after the one before.

Darkdominion
07-14-2007, 09:11 PM
You're right, throwing 2 baseballs at a time doesn't work well. Have you ever tried to throw two knives at a time? Or two knives one after the other having one in each hand? I have. It works out, although it is less accurate (which makes sense, as I have no special training representing feats). I wouldn't advise trying it yourself though, unless you're very careful, safety first! Throwing a knife is a lot different from throwing a baseball. And you could always throw them directly one after another, that even works with baseballs!

Ithrani
07-16-2007, 11:56 AM
You're right, throwing 2 baseballs at a time doesn't work well. Have you ever tried to throw two knives at a time? Or two knives one after the other having one in each hand? I have. It works out, although it is less accurate (which makes sense, as I have no special training representing feats). I wouldn't advise trying it yourself though, unless you're very careful, safety first! Throwing a knife is a lot different from throwing a baseball. And you could always throw them directly one after another, that even works with baseballs!

You do not throw the weapons at the same time, why is this even part of the discussion, when I already pointed this out. I know your just trying to disprove him Dark, but the idea of throwing two baseballs at the same time in comparison to TWF thrown weapons should not even be in this thread :D


This is how a full attack round should make sense in terms of TWF and full attack

My right hand throws, then my left, as my left throws my right pulls out another dagger, I throw that my left pulls another, so on and so forth.

As a DM I would make the attack order follow this right/left/right/left... or visa versa for those who RP lefties. When a person gets an extra attack from rapid shot, haste or what have you, unlike the published, adventures I have seen I do not make it follow the order of all the highest attacks first.

Ie. +20 to hit first attack with 4 attacks, plus hasted.

Published way:
21/21/16/11/6

My way:
21/16/11/6/21

There is really is no difference how you place them just as long as they follow the first downward progression in all the base attacks.

So for a TWF with throw weapons and a +20 to attack, 4 attacks, hasted and I am making the attacks go right/left/right/left


19/19/14/14/9/9/19

Add in rapid shot

17/17/12/12/7/7/17/17

I basically start the BAB progression over at the end. There is no right or wrong way to do this, unless you make the BAB progression backwards and it goes up with more attacks, then you would not be a DM, you would be Turbine.

Mad_Bombardier
07-16-2007, 12:07 PM
19/19/14/14/9/9/19

Add in rapid shot

17/17/12/12/7/7/17/17

I basically start the BAB progression over at the end. There is no right or wrong way to do this, unless you make the BAB progression backwards and it goes up with more attacks, then you would not be a DM, you would be Turbine.Except that DDO ranged/thrown doesn't use the progressive penalty of D&D or the progressive bonus of DDO. So, it would just be

One-handed 19, 19, 19, 19
Two-Handed 17, 17/17, 17/17, 17/17.

Riot
07-16-2007, 12:17 PM
My Hurler is level 8 atm...

And while cool, Thrown weapons need help. And there's some good ideas here too.
IMHO Quick Draw, should have a more noticeable affect. Right now it's barely noticable.

Ithrani
07-16-2007, 12:26 PM
Except that DDO ranged/thrown doesn't use the progressive penalty of D&D or the progressive bonus of DDO. So, it would just be

One-handed 19, 19, 19, 19
Two-Handed 17, 17/17, 17/17, 17/17.

That still doesn't mean they are getting thrown at the same time. If that were the case then I have about 4-8 arms. Shouldn't we be at multiweapon fighting then :-P

Mad_Bombardier
07-16-2007, 12:31 PM
That still doesn't mean they are getting thrown at the same time. If that were the case then I have about 4-8 arms. Shouldn't we be at multiweapon fighting then :-PThey can alternate (rapidly). You should get two throws in the time a shield and thrower gets 1, just like TWF. DDO just needs a TWThrowing animation.

Ithrani
07-16-2007, 12:50 PM
They can alternate (rapidly). You should get two throws in the time a shield and thrower gets 1, just like TWF. DDO just needs a TWThrowing animation.

I was talking about it earlier. And DDO needs a lot of attack animations, like an unarmed attack/flurry of blows animation, TWF throwing, Two-Handed wielding of a One-Handed Weapon (Over-Powered Khopeshes) TWF Shield Bashing :D