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Shaamis
07-13-2007, 09:56 AM
I have been discussing this with my guild, and I'd like to hear other conspiracy theories.

We know from subtle information given already, that the creatures we face in DDO, are not created using the same system our characters are.

Therefore, they don't follow the same rules we have to.

This means that the dwarven blacguards in BAM don't wear +5 full plate, and use +5 Heavy Picks, with Improved critical feat, or even have a HP total that is derived from their base hit dice. their lvl doesnt exist, therefore no BAB is derived, they are merely a set of numbers that the Devs decided what would make a good challenge for Pcs of the appropriate level.

What checks and balances are being used to see if a group of enemies are balanced?

A blackguard's HD # could be 14, but their HPs might be set to 500. They have no class/lvl per se, how is their BAB, saving throws, and AC calculated?

I think it's not, it's just a number plugged in, with no balance whatsoever, other than an arbitrary decision made by Turbine.

So, a blackguard, can be 1 HD, 400 HP, AC could be 50, and to-hit could be +5 with an attack that does 1d6+20. The enemy LOOKS like it has a pick, and heavy armor and shield, the enemy desrciption SAYS it is a dwarver blackguard, but it's just an arbitrary set of numbers.

This situation and system might be good for low-level play, but as DDO progresses, it is definately becoming a problem.

I have another theory that this enemy creating system, not based on class/level/items/feats was done to help get DDO:Stormreach developed fater, and moved out to the public faster.

the more I think about it, the more I get agitated. A game that says it's D&D, is only loosely based on D&D.

If all of this is true, I see no way, short of ripping out the entire enemy creating system, to replace it with a enemy building system like we use to create our own characters. This should have been the way to do it from the beginning, but I'm sure some logistical decision was made, and caused it to falter to the current system.

Am I insane, or does anyone else think this is close to being a big problem, as DDO progresses?

I am only bringing this up, because I want this game to continue on, succeed, and not hit an invisible ceiling, when this problem becomes unavoidable.

Ok, time to let loose the dogs of war.

Sincerely,

tihocan
07-13-2007, 10:04 AM
Can you explain what the problem is? If the numbers are properly chosen, it sounds like an ok system to me.

Freeman
07-13-2007, 10:14 AM
I'm with Tihocan here. The source of the numbers has no bearing on whether or not they are balanced. So I'm not quite sure what problem you are referring to.

MtnLion
07-13-2007, 10:24 AM
I like that the OP chose blackguards in BAM for this. My sorcerer recently revisited BAM as a level 14. He was nearly completely useless. He could not get the enemies to dance, get mesmerized in hypnotic pattern, or effectively combat any of them. It seems illogical that he could not penetrate their spell resistance while having the feats and items, and a charisma of 34.

What has been done by the development team is to react to our stategies. If the quest can be made easy by doing x (drag them to a firewall), then the devs will do y (put in doors to prevent the drag). If a sorcerer can hypno pattern, charm, dance then they boost the spell resistance and saves until it is impossible.

The HP of mobs has been inflated to extend combat, but why would the to hit and damage have to be inflated? The answer is annoying, because it is intended to cause inflated damage to the players, meaning an increased cost to clerics and an increased failure rate for parties (party wipes). Why would a mob's AC and spell resistance have to be far above what is attainable by the PCs? To force us to use vorpals.

Then they will have them self-cast deathward or otherwise be immune to vorpal, and where will we be?

Shawhan
07-13-2007, 11:28 AM
While I cannot say that I have experienced the previous caster's lack of success with spells on the Blackguard I do agree with the OP that it would be nice to know the Dev's are using some form of system that has a set of rules just like our character creation does when making mobs.

As far as making them highly resistant to certain spells or abilities I have say that they (Blackguard) are higher level mobs and lower level things like hypnotize should be less effective. (so where is our protection from arrows spell at?)

As far as a mob selfcasting deathward to avoid a vorpal I just have to say they better have the appropriate classes so they can and if they do more power to them. And if they are quaffing potions where are ours at? I come from the mindset that anything the pc's can do so can the mobs. Now i have no problem with mobs gettings spells sooner if for nothing else than play test and QA and maybe a little bit of nah nah nah nah on the part of the devs but if they do things we can't or aren't held to the same rules then i get really annoyed (Concentration checks anyone?).

So here's hoping for a mob development system that is in fact balanced and follows a set of rules.

Thanks for your time, please drive through.

Shawhan

Gadget2775
07-13-2007, 11:52 AM
Dear gods in Eberron! Don't you realize the demon devs monitor this form of communication? :eek: Run! You've just awoken the sleeping giants! They're scrambling a crack team of Kobold infiltrators as we speak...Who knows what terrible things they'll do to you for speaking out in public, or to me for warning you! What if the GC knows? We'll all be smited (Or perhaps that should be smitten :D ) repeatedly with their NERF WAND OF PLAYER HATRED (Min Lvl 60 RR DEV, RR GC)! :D

All I know for sure is I'm not gona let you take me down with you. There are still a few safe havens out there! Just have to make it back to that nice little hidey hole...The one with the padded rooms, and those marvelous jackets of ETERNAL SELF HUG (Min Lvl 1, ER "Equipment Restricted" Players without tin hats).

Frankenbard
/sing Xun Xun Xun

Shaamis
07-13-2007, 12:25 PM
While I cannot say that I have experienced the previous caster's lack of success with spells on the Blackguard I do agree with the OP that it would be nice to know the Dev's are using some form of system that has a set of rules just like our character creation does when making mobs.

As far as making them highly resistant to certain spells or abilities I have say that they (Blackguard) are higher level mobs and lower level things like hypnotize should be less effective. (so where is our protection from arrows spell at?)

As far as a mob selfcasting deathward to avoid a vorpal I just have to say they better have the appropriate classes so they can and if they do more power to them. And if they are quaffing potions where are ours at? I come from the mindset that anything the pc's can do so can the mobs. Now i have no problem with mobs gettings spells sooner if for nothing else than play test and QA and maybe a little bit of nah nah nah nah on the part of the devs but if they do things we can't or aren't held to the same rules then i get really annoyed (Concentration checks anyone?).

So here's hoping for a mob development system that is in fact balanced and follows a set of rules.

Thanks for your time, please drive through.

Shawhan

I am a technically oriented person, I like to know there is a rhyme and/or a reason for why something acts and behaves the way it does.

I spent the last 20+ years learning D&D, so I wouldn't have to guess what methods are being used to create mobs they pit up against me.

at least SOME reasoning.

A human brigand that can perform spells and abilities it would not be able to do, even in a fantasy setting, is not allowing me to maintain my suspension of belief, it makes me say "what the....." and then say "ok, I'll release and come back in....."

that's all.

I also want to point out that the purpose of this post is also about how the way Turbine doesn't use a balanced enemy creating system, how it will become impossible to maintain, as the level cap increases.

dameron
07-13-2007, 12:43 PM
Can you explain what the problem is? If the numbers are properly chosen, it sounds like an ok system to me.

Because we want to play D&D Online, not some game that sort of resembles D&D.

The more you know about PnP the less DDO resembles D&D.

It'd be like being invited to play football and having to ask why the Battlemech's have cleats on.

Gimpster
07-13-2007, 12:47 PM
Therefore, they don't follow the same rules we have to.
The monsters WISH they could follow the same rules we do!

How long would you last against monsters if they didn't have between 10-25% the swing rate of a player character? If they could charge ahead like madmen jumping and bouncing? If they could shield-block when injured to get DR 28 until they're healed up?

If mobs had all the players' advantages it would be insane. The so-called "boosts" the monsters have gotten (which basically apply to their survivability in the form of extra hitpoints) are really just an attempt to compensate for everything they lost in offense and mobility.

Shaamis
07-13-2007, 12:53 PM
The monsters WISH they could follow the same rules we do!

How long would you last against monsters if they didn't have between 10-25% the swing rate of a player character? If they could charge ahead like madmen jumping and bouncing? If they could shield-block when injured to get DR 28 until they're healed up?

If mobs had all the players' advantages it would be insane. The so-called "boosts" the monsters have gotten (which basically apply to their survivability in the form of extra hitpoints) are really just an attempt to compensate for everything they lost in offense and mobility.

Have you ever been at the business end of an Ogre, during it's three step charge? if that is not offense, AND mobility, I'm crazy.

You ever ask yourself why you charge at a team of Giants, but cringe when you see a team of Ogres coming at you? Why does an Ogre or a Troll hit so much ahrder than a giant?

The mobs have just as many advantages as we (the players) do, because of the arbitrary adding/adjusting of the numbers.

A couple of updates back the spiders at higher difficulty were toned down. All that meant was they looked at the numbers they set for them a while back, and deemed it too tough, so they bumped 'em down a few points here and there.

Now we hear about how easy mobs are to defeat after such and such "update", it's because they over/underbumped their numbers.

D&D had a simple method of how to balance encounters, it's in the DMG Handbook, under "balancing monster encounters"

CR is challenge rating, it includes the HD, special abilities, and capabilities of a certain creature. the more creatures in an encounter, the higher the EL or encounter level increases.

Basically 4 level 10 characters are equivalent to one CR 16 creature, two CR 14 creatures, three CR 12 creatures, or four CR 10 creatures.

A creature's CR is based off of HD, special abilities, and capabilities.

I don't know what system Turbine uses to gague a creatures CR, or an EL, because their numbers are so "out there", it's insane.

Maybe just a little peek at the stats of one monster, the kobold for example, would let me think how they even calculate saves, HD, AC, and other abilities.

Girevik
07-13-2007, 12:54 PM
I don't have a problem with the monsters using a different creation and combat system than us, I just wish the Dev's would take advantage of it for our benefit every once in a while.

I am thinking Armor Class here. In both PnP and DDO our BAB's increase faster than our AC's. AC still matters at high levels in PnP, however, because secondary and tertiary, etc. attacks are at reduced BAB bonuses.

I understand why they feel that reducing BAB system won't work for players, but why can't they put it in place for their AI controlled monsters?

That way it WOULD make a difference whether your character had a 40 AC or a 30 AC. Maybe not on the first attack from a critter, but later on down its chain. Higher AC's would make a difference.

Shaamis
07-13-2007, 01:10 PM
This post isnt a rant that the creatures are unfair, it's a discussion about the simple moster creation system Turbine uses, do they use something vaguely based off of D&D mechanics, or do they just have an arbitrary "monster stats" sheet, with AC, HP, HD, Damage per attack, etc. listed down it, with numbers they "think" should be about right for a certain challenge rating.

I hope they did it in order to get DDO onto the shelves, and not because they just threw the entire D20 creature combat statistics out of the window.

that's all for now.

Shaamis
07-13-2007, 01:14 PM
I don't have a problem with the monsters using a different creation and combat system than us, I just wish the Dev's would take advantage of it for our benefit every once in a while.

I am thinking Armor Class here. In both PnP and DDO our BAB's increase faster than our AC's. AC still matters at high levels in PnP, however, because secondary and tertiary, etc. attacks are at reduced BAB bonuses.

I understand why they feel that reducing BAB system won't work for players, but why can't they put it in place for their AI controlled monsters?

That way it WOULD make a difference whether your character had a 40 AC or a 30 AC. Maybe not on the first attack from a critter, but later on down its chain. Higher AC's would make a difference.

I hear ya man.

I am just looking for some sense, and consistency. Too many things get changed around in this game, sometimes two or three time a month.

I think a lot of that time an energy would have been better spent, using a tried and true system, for balancing ELs, so that a level 14 adventure is a LEVEL 14 adventure. A CR 28 creature should wipe a lvl 12 group, hands down, why can we wipe it so easy? And then an adventure like "Freshen the Air" is such a tough adventure, because the power level is so out of whack with it's EL.

CaitMonster
07-13-2007, 01:16 PM
I just want to know what arrows they use in Wiz king. to hit us with Cause I Want Some. They seem to ignore AC, and they do a lot of damage per hit, or even what bows they use because that combination is awesome :P

In BAM I have never had seen any trouble with dancing the mobs or fascinating them. I went in with two lvl 12 bards and no cleric, me on my rogue, and a wiz and two tanks and it was fun. That was on elite. (of course that is before the last update or two) It does seem like sometimes some mobs are getting OCs are getting mad saves. When we do not get the same saves. Or there AC being better than ours, or the like. A little more balance would be nice.

I kinda like the challenge on the OCs, but I do agree some quests that are set at a level are almost too difficult for the average player.

I don't really worry about OCs being to difficult, I just whine when they are too easy. I think that it makes it more fun, and takes a little more planing to get through a quest. I like it that way.

Personally I always thought the best DM in PnP were the ones that put you up against something you might not survive. Or took some really really well built PC and turned it into an NPC or an OC that we might face. In a different campaign. Yes so DDO is basing loosely on D&D, and the mobs don't follow the same rules we do.... but come on................................................
Don't you enjoy a challenge?

Shaamis
07-13-2007, 02:03 PM
I just want to know what arrows they use in Wiz king. to hit us with Cause I Want Some. They seem to ignore AC, and they do a lot of damage per hit, or even what bows they use because that combination is awesome :P

If I'm right, it's not a bow they are firing it's a "ranged attack +15 to hit, damage 1d6+20 (+additional damage type damage). a Bow is an item taht can be equipped by a character, I think it's not even a seperable item from the creature.


In BAM I have never had seen any trouble with dancing the mobs or fascinating them. I went in with two lvl 12 bards and no cleric, me on my rogue, and a wiz and two tanks and it was fun. That was on elite. (of course that is before the last update or two) It does seem like sometimes some mobs are getting OCs are getting mad saves. When we do not get the same saves. Or there AC being better than ours, or the like. A little more balance would be nice.

I kinda like the challenge on the OCs, but I do agree some quests that are set at a level are almost too difficult for the average player.

I don't really worry about OCs being to difficult, I just whine when they are too easy. I think that it makes it more fun, and takes a little more planing to get through a quest. I like it that way.

Personally I always thought the best DM in PnP were the ones that put you up against something you might not survive. Or took some really really well built PC and turned it into an NPC or an OC that we might face. In a different campaign. Yes so DDO is basing loosely on D&D, and the mobs don't follow the same rules we do.... but come on................................................
Don't you enjoy a challenge?

I do love a challenge. However, when I don't know if the other player (DDO) is following the same rules, and keeps kicking my butt, I'm going to call shenannigan's and ask to look at their character sheet :mad:

KristovK
07-13-2007, 02:24 PM
I'm pretty sure that somwhere the devs have actually answered your questions...multiple times now.

Mobs are given the BAB, saves, ACs and HD they should have for their CR...on NORMAL settings. HPs are bumped up but that's it. All casting mobs use the Sorcs cooldowns and casting timers(I do NOT believe that for one minute, but it was just posted by a dev as how mobs cast).

Now, bump the setting up to Hard or Elite and all bets are off. HD get bumped, BAB gets bumped, saves get bumped and AC gets bumped. Oh..and their already boosted HPs get boosted again.

These questions have already been answered by the devs, as I said.

Braddock_Tharmwell
07-13-2007, 02:31 PM
I do love a challenge. However, when I don't know if the other player (DDO) is following the same rules, and keeps kicking my butt, I'm going to call shenannigan's and ask to look at their character sheet :mad:

Being, as you stated, a PnP player for some 20+ years, you should know better than to ask the DM to allow you to see his Monsters character sheets. That is just poor form and a sign of poor Sportsmanship. :)

Call shenannigans if you wish but then prepare your party for Retribution. ;)

The PnP system can not compensate for a DM'less environement. That is what it boils down to really. Knowing how they build the monsters won't change that fact, ever. Besides that, knowing their Stats would suck ALL the FUN directly from the game proper.

MtnLion
07-13-2007, 02:33 PM
I'm pretty sure that somwhere the devs have actually answered your questions...multiple times now.

Mobs are given the BAB, saves, ACs and HD they should have for their CR...on NORMAL settings. HPs are bumped up but that's it. All casting mobs use the Sorcs cooldowns and casting timers(I do NOT believe that for one minute, but it was just posted by a dev as how mobs cast).

Now, bump the setting up to Hard or Elite and all bets are off. HD get bumped, BAB gets bumped, saves get bumped and AC gets bumped. Oh..and their already boosted HPs get boosted again.

These questions have already been answered by the devs, as I said.

I don't believe that SR has been addressed. I have checked the Vampire's (original in Phiarlan) SR and found it to be over 30, long ago. I suppose what we are saying is that we understand these things, but insist that it is arbitrary and not within the limits of what our PC's will be able to handle later in the game.

Those who have mentioned not having a problem in BAM should revisit, since a lot of changes were made to BAM over the last 6 months. My visit was recent, just a few weeks ago, and I could probably have run into a bug. Though I doubt that it was a bugged instance because I was able to handle the elementals in the entry area, with no problems.

wraith87
07-13-2007, 02:48 PM
To be fair to the devs, DDO needed the change. You're saying that they threw the whole system out the window and that its a horrible idea. I think they kept some of the ideas and threw other parts out because of how the game works.

For example, in PnP you won't go through an entire dungeon in 30 minutes with anywhere near as many mobs as are in most of the dungeons out there. I'll use the BAM example since that's already in place. OK, now, if it was PnP, then there would most likely be a scouting of the area, and most likely a few days worth of material to go through it. You'd be finding safe spots to sleep and regain spells and things. You'd spend probably 3 or 4 "in-game" days in a dungeon like that. At least. If you didn't complete "optionals".

In DDO the players have been bumped a bit, so the mobs needed a few bumps here and there. I'd assume that there's probably not just a random set of numbers they choose. The HP is definitely increased a bit, but I like to think that at least the saves and things are scaled up with regards to the "elite" setting. This should be a challenge, you shouldn't be able to just run through a quest like BAM and PK/Finger/Hypnotize everything in sight.

Do you run normal ever? At a level appropriate to what it says? That is a challenge, but possible to complete. It's fun when you get people together to do it at the right levels (that haven't been twinked beyond belief).

Eh, I dunno, it's really just one side's opinion arguing against another side's opinion. So long as you have fun, does it really matter that the mobs have been increased a bit and deviate from PnP? I understand that you want to play DnD completely from the PnP version, but sometimes it just can't happen. Sometimes you have to accept that the mobs needed an increase to keep things fun and interesting for everyone.

JayDubya
07-13-2007, 03:03 PM
A few weeks ago, one of the devs explained that:

1) Mobs have HD, just like chacaters, and their CR is consistent with their HD from the books
2) However, their HD are like 1d8+20, instead of 1d8, to make them more challenging


My thoughts:
A) In so far as the devs "make up" an AC for a mob... so what? They are made up based on our ACs and our To-Hits, which helps ensure they're well-matched to our abilities.
B) Insofar as blackguards are hard to charm - remember, they are elves, possibly with various elven resistance enhancements, and with drow SR as well. They're not supposed to be easy to charm.
C) As for the spiders - remember, we've got insane ACs b/c of all of our goodies, and spiders don't have any equipment at all. If the devs used the straight scaling from the DMG, those spiders wouldn't last a second against us. So they gave them too much of a strength bonus at one point, and had to scale that back. Again, so what? If they had set them up just like PnP, they'd be worthless as enemies.


The real issue is that this is a monty-haul campaign, not that the ACs of the monsters are not determined by a precise re-implementation of the DMG.

Shaamis
07-13-2007, 03:07 PM
Being, as you stated, a PnP player for some 20+ years, you should know better than to ask the DM to allow you to see his Monsters character sheets. That is just poor form and a sign of poor Sportsmanship. :)

That's the crux, and the reasoning behind why people say the D&D system will never work in an MMO, and why DDO is destined for failure.


Call shenannigans if you wish but then prepare your party for Retribution. ;)

The PnP system can not compensate for a DM'less environement. That is what it boils down to really.

I agree, but there has to be a better way to balance the games enemies than just plugging in numbers, and hope for the best, because that's exactly what they are doing when they "bump" the AC,HD, HP, and damages for the monsters as the difficulty increases. if they follow the Normal, Hard, and Elite difficulty pattern, it should be a 1 point increment jump for each one. Instead you see a skeleton in Goodblades quest going from 10 HP to almost 100 hp, from Normal to elite, even with a blunt weapon.


Knowing how they build the monsters won't change that fact, ever. Besides that, knowing their Stats would suck ALL the FUN directly from the game proper.

Maybe not THE stats, but at least the system they use. I mean, if they have standard CR for normal, then go +5 AC, +50% HP, +5 BAB, +10 damage, and A,B,and C special abilities when they go to Hard, and +15 AC, +150% HP, +15 BAB, +30 damage, and A, B, C, X, Y and Z special abilities when they go to Elite, at least I know they are using some kind of process, other than a "....+10d6 damage for scortching ray at "hard" looks about right...." method.

There has to be a balancing issue when you encounter something I said previously, quoted below:

Have you ever been at the business end of an Ogre, during it's three step charge? if that is not offense, AND mobility, I'm crazy.

You ever ask yourself why you charge at a team of Giants, but cringe when you see a team of Ogres coming at you? Why does an Ogre or a Troll hit so much harder than a giant?


Like I said, I'd like at see at least an inkling of a process, preferably mathematical, on how they standardize their Challenge ratings.

Don't get me wrong guys and gals, I love DDO, but I don't even look at challenge rating of mobs anymore, because it's worthless. I attack the mages and clerics first, because I know they have a TON of HP, and I have to beat them down before I get scortching rayed/flame struck/ polar rayed/disintegrated into dust.

It's hard to know your enemy in this game. :(

KristovK
07-13-2007, 03:08 PM
I don't believe that SR has been addressed. I have checked the Vampire's (original in Phiarlan) SR and found it to be over 30, long ago. I suppose what we are saying is that we understand these things, but insist that it is arbitrary and not within the limits of what our PC's will be able to handle later in the game.

Those who have mentioned not having a problem in BAM should revisit, since a lot of changes were made to BAM over the last 6 months. My visit was recent, just a few weeks ago, and I could probably have run into a bug. Though I doubt that it was a bugged instance because I was able to handle the elementals in the entry area, with no problems.

Ok...my first question is...why in the hells would you toss a non-damage spell at the vamp in CatC? First off, he's a vampire lord so it's pretty damn unlikely that a 10th level caster is going to have anything that can do anything to him except for pure damage spells, taking for granted that you tested his SR before red named became immune to anything but damage spells, which means you had no Spell Pen feats or enhancements AND were capped at 10th. I haven't actually looked at the numbers, but my 11th cleric was able to hit that particular vamp with Curse on elite 2 weeks ago and that's without Spell Pen feats or enhancements(miscast, Searing Light and Curse were next to each other on my bar...wasn't a total waste though, someone was able to trip him after that).

SRs so far, in my own experience, tend to be in line with the CRs of the mobs with them, even on elite in Gianthold quests. Haven't seen a mob yet who's SR was too high to beat on a roll of 12..and that's the purple named giants in Gianthold Tor, need a 12 for them, 10 max for anything else in the game, with a 14th wiz with Spell Pen(not Greater) and a Mysterious Ring that gives Spell Pen. I've run Relic with that wiz recently and had no problems with SR of anything in there, problems with getting past their SAVES...but not their SRs. But that's to be expected, Duergar get a nice bonus on top of the normal dwarven bonus to Will saves, and Blackguard get the Chr bonus same as a Paladin to all their saves, so...

What spells exactly were you getting failed SR checks on?

Gimpster
07-13-2007, 04:33 PM
Have you ever been at the business end of an Ogre, during it's three step charge? if that is not offense, AND mobility, I'm crazy.
Have you ever been in a PvP room with a ragey barb14 all in your face? Even with a +1 Greatclub, his DPS overwhelms an elite gianthold ogre because he doesn't stop at just three swings.

Gimpster
07-13-2007, 04:39 PM
Like I said, I'd like at see at least an inkling of a process, preferably mathematical, on how they standardize their Challenge ratings.
In PnP, that's not how challenge ratings are made. CR is at heart an ad-hoc measurement that cannot be cranked out mechanically.


Don't get me wrong guys and gals, I love DDO, but I don't even look at challenge rating of mobs anymore
Good. D&D players are no supposed to be aware of the CR numbers for monsters they encounter.

LogannX
07-13-2007, 05:50 PM
Well players dont play DDO like they play PnP. Alot more is possible in the way of...nicely put..player ingenuity. In PnP you didnt have 4 party members sit at a dungeon entrance while the "tank" ran and dragged all the mobs into solid fog cloudkill that the caster spammed around the room. Sure it counts as player skill and ingenuity, but its not sporting and not any fun. So you adjust mob behavior or how things affect mobs. Makes sense to me. pNp dungeons and dragons does have inherant weaknesses nothing is perfect. It's translation to a vidoegame definitely showed that you can be very faithful to the original game but chnages were definitley needed.
If they balance mobs properly it doesnt matter to me what system they use. It's much better than other games where they just make up new abilities and immunities with no rhyme or reason. Mobs do cast spells that we cast. They still roll saves ,they still fail to break through ac. Some people would like exact numbers but i don't thinks it really an issue.
Normal and hard dungeons seem to scale very well. Lots of elite seem to be eoite+ a little but hey isn't that what people who only play elite want?

MtnLion
07-16-2007, 12:05 PM
... taking for granted that you tested his SR before red named became immune to anything but damage spells, which means you had no Spell Pen feats or enhancements AND were capped at 10th. ...

Quite correct.


...I've run Relic with that wiz recently and had no problems with SR of anything in there, problems with getting past their SAVES...but not their SRs.
...

Well. now I am not one to camp a particular quest, even to accumulate data to support my statements. It is possible that I saw immunity flashes rather than spell resistance flashes, but unlikely.

We did another run, and I on my fighter. The wizard and sorcerer in the party commented on the incredible saves the mobs were making. Hypnotic pattern is pretty useless nowdays. But, even Otto's Sphere would stop them for mayb three seconds if they failed the initial save. It sure seems unfortunate that in order to slow down the farming of Relic that was going on some months ago that the ACs, To Hit, resistances, and saves of the mobs had to be boosted to where on normal it plays as elite, and the quest level was not adjusted. (Yep, then when one enters on elite it gets very tough, indeed.)

BurnerD
07-16-2007, 12:20 PM
I don't think it is unreasonable of the OP to ask for more clarification on how the monsters stats are derived.

I do think however that the devs have to evolve these monsters are the tactics within the game change.

In PNP as a DM you can react real time with changes to the monsters tactics based on how the players are approaching the encounter.. that is not possible in DDO. The AI while pretty good IMO is not capable of making complex decisions based on how an encounter is going.

I really don't want this game to be easy because what is the point in playing then?, but it should not be impossible either. IMO nothing is impossible right now. I do think when rebalancing occurs it tends to favor melee classes over casters though. Casters have greater ability to render a quest "simple" through spell use than melees do through their combat prowess. I guess it is only natural that the "fixes' tends to hurt casters.

Klattuu
07-16-2007, 12:29 PM
It is actually quite simple really.

Mobs are made variable so the difficulty of a particular quest can be fine-tuned at the level of the adversaries instead of having to change the quest to add or subract adversaries to tweak adventure difficulty.

This allows for the Normal/Hard/Elite settings of the adventure.

MtnLion
07-16-2007, 12:50 PM
...
This allows for the Normal/Hard/Elite settings of the adventure.

For example: Sunken Sewers

Normal: Strength >= 16*, Mob base (1) HP
Hard: Strength >= 18, Mob triple (3) HP
Elite: Strength >= 20, Mob quintuple (5) HP, remarkablly the kobold's AC are over 30 on this setting.

This is not a particularly popular quest, since it does not provide any "special" rewards or large portion of XP. If this quest were more popular, the base figures would probably be modified. Relic was extremely popular to farm the admantine ore, in which case the guards and casters were bypassed to get to the key for the mine area. Farming Relic for ore was usually run on normal settings, and the continued farming meant that the normal settings must have been tweaked considerably.

To complete Relic on any setting it is best to have a vorpal in party, since offensive spells are pretty ineffective on the mobs. That is only one of the quests that has become cheesey, requiring a specific tactic and equipment to complete the mission without having to run the casters (including the cleric) in and out of the instance to regain spell points.

* I don't have access to the character's stats atm, I know that I had to boost his strength by two and then have a rage potion to open the valve. This would make the progression 2 strength for each increase in difficulty level.