PDA

View Full Version : sorcerer spells



Daddy
07-11-2007, 09:52 PM
think known spells will ever catch up to pnp for sorcerers?

at lvl 14 a sorcerer in pnp would like like this.

1st 6
2nd 6
3rd 6
4th 6
5th 6
6th 5
7th 3

i'm sure the cap at 4 spells per lvl is for a reason...i just cant think of a reason why it is.


i can't be the only person that's noticed this.

Gimpster
07-11-2007, 10:00 PM
at lvl 14 a sorcerer in pnp would like like this.
1st 6
2nd 6
3rd 6
4th 6
5th 6
6th 5
7th 3
Wrong. A PnP sorceror at level 14 has
1st 5
2nd 5
3rd 4
4th 4
5th 3
6th 2
7th 1
The numbers you gave are his spell slots (aka mana), not his spells known.


i'm sure the cap at 4 spells per lvl is for a reason...i just cant think of a reason why it is.
Yes. It's because the DDO game has a more limited possible set of environments and encounter types than can occur in the original D&D. This means a spellcaster does not need to deal with as many different situations, so he doesn't need as many different spells. The sorceror class is supposed to have a meaningful restriction to power based on his limited list of spells, but DDO has fewer spells which are actually useful.

Thus, a reduced number of spells per level.

Look at the 3rd level spells, for example. In PnP, there are super-useful spells like Fly, GMW, Blink, Major Image, Gaseous Form, Clairvoyance, Phantom Steed, and even Tongues. A PnP wizard can memorize those spells when needed, but a sorc would be hard pressed to fit some of those into just 4 slots. But in DDO you're basically all set if you have Haste, Fireball, and Displacement. Having a bigger list of spells known would not be as beneficial.

Shade
07-11-2007, 11:36 PM
Yea but wizards get 5 slotsin ddo?
Why can't sorcerers?
I mean basicly 5 spells for a wizard is enough to get everyone u need every quest.. Sorcerer u still gota chose good all around ones, just get 1 more to play with.

Not a big deal to me, i think sorcs/wiz are fairly well balanced. But i dont think a couple more low lvl spells will unbalance anything. It would just give more sorcs like tumble and maybe blur or knock, situational spells thats wont make or break anyone.

Because even with that, wizards would still have way more spells (all of them vs some), and more spell slots (i think 5 more vs 7 more atm), and ofcourse other wizard perks like more feats.

pcgammerm
07-12-2007, 12:16 AM
Because even with that, wizards would still have way more spells (all of them vs some), and more spell slots (i think 5 more vs 7 more atm), and ofcourse other wizard perks like more feats.

thats the point, wizards are short changed already with sorcs getting a lot more sp. so why not give them all the extra stuff (not that i use all the spells my wiz has, most just aren't worth spitting at)

Missing_Minds
07-12-2007, 08:21 AM
thats the point, wizards are short changed already with sorcs getting a lot more sp. so why not give them all the extra stuff (not that i use all the spells my wiz has, most just aren't worth spitting at)

Now there is a load of absolute cr@p right there. I could spout off the entire comparison AGAIN, but I really don't feel like it. If sorcs were actually given their fifth 1st and 2nd lvl spells, It would be all good. Are you saying that giving sorcs the correct number of spells would be over powering them? A 1st and 2nd lvl spell? *snicker*

Sokar6000
07-12-2007, 09:52 AM
thats the point, wizards are short changed already with sorcs getting a lot more sp. so why not give them all the extra stuff (not that i use all the spells my wiz has, most just aren't worth spitting at)

Please do not tell lies, that is how rumors get started. Anyone with half a brain knows that Wizards in DDO are completely overpowered compared to sorcerers.

I think the least Turbine could do is give us the rest of our spells.

Balthazar_No_Oni
07-12-2007, 10:27 AM
Please do not tell lies, that is how rumors get started. Anyone with half a brain knows that Wizards in DDO are completely overpowered compared to sorcerers.

I think the least Turbine could do is give us the rest of our spells.

WOW, dude you are so totally off base. Its cannot be a LIE as its an OPINION. People need to chill the f out. You dont think sorcs are over powered he does GET OVER IT.


I see WHY sorcs get less per lvl. Some people dont agree with the reason.

IE, if they can cast more TIMES per day and if can have more SPELL SLOTS than a wiz added on top of the more casts, then why would anyone ever play a wiz... EVER.


Sorcs are a focused class. Wizzes can do anything, just not as well as a focused sorc, sort of like fighters vs pals.

edit: and before you bring up, "well thats the way it is in PNP!!!!! OMG!!!!!" please remember that in PNP sorcs cannot switch AT ALL EVER, so there is a valid reason for being a wiz other than the meta feats.

GeneralDiomedes
07-12-2007, 10:35 AM
It's not about keeping Sorcerers from being 'overpowered' it's about having reasons to play a Wizard.

Sokar6000
07-12-2007, 10:36 AM
please remember that in PNP sorcs cannot switch AT ALL EVER...

Wow. Now is an even more perfect time for the line about lies. :P Thanks for that.

Please check the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer), then come back and argue with me. I'll be waiting. :)

Missing_Minds
07-12-2007, 11:04 AM
Sorcs are a focused class. Wizzes can do anything, just not as well as a focused sorc, sort of like fighters vs pals.

edit: and before you bring up, "well thats the way it is in PNP!!!!! OMG!!!!!" please remember that in PNP sorcs cannot switch AT ALL EVER, so there is a valid reason for being a wiz other than the meta feats.

Wow.. someone needs to read PnP rules again. So make it back to where sorcs can switch every even level starting at caster lvl 4. I'd be fine with that. That IS by the rules.

And when that happens, I also want wizards STRIPPED completely of all EXTRA spells they were given for a half baked over powering option of school specialization. (that means the max number of spells they can know of any level is 4.)

As for the answer about there not being enough spells, that was stated several months ago. Go count the number of 1st and 2nd lvl spells now. Trying to use that answer now is a complete cop out stating "we are to lazy to make changes to balance characters.". Heck, for that matter, if there were not enough spells back then, why give wizards five spell slots any way?

Gimpster
07-12-2007, 11:08 AM
As for the answer about there not being enough spells, that was stated several months ago. Go count the number of 1st and 2nd lvl spells now.
Exactly the same.

There has not been ANY new 1st or 2nd level spell in those many months. Next week, there may be one new 1st level spell...

Aspenor
07-12-2007, 11:11 AM
Faster casting times and almost 1.5 times the mana more than makes up for a couple spell slots.

If they were to give sorcerors a 5th slot at first level, the corresponding balance would be to give wizards a 6th. Do you see where I'm coming from??

Wizards are built for versatility, with more options available. Sorcerors are not meant to be versatile, they are meant to be powerhouses. They do what they do and they do it great. Wizards can tailor their spells to fit the occasion.

Complaining you dont have as many spell slots as PnP is pointless. By taking away spells/day and making mana, spell slots had to be rebalanced.

Missing_Minds
07-12-2007, 12:04 PM
*sighs* Asp, do you have any casters? Because it is sounding like you don't and you just jumped on the bandwagon with a lot of other people.

Gimp, go count the spells as listed in the compendium. I have.
22 1st lvl spells.
28 2nd lvl spells.

And the excuse is "there isn't enough spells." Obviously, there isn't enough plat in the market either.

Aspenor
07-12-2007, 12:06 PM
*sighs* Asp, do you have any casters? Because it is sounding like you don't and you just jumped on the bandwagon with a lot of other people.

Gimp, go count the spells as listed in the compendium. I have.
22 1st lvl spells.
28 2nd lvl spells.

And the excuse is "there isn't enough spells." The obviously, there isn't enough plat in the market either.

You make me laugh. I have 3 spell casters, and I have played 4 :)

Do you even play a wizard?

What you are asking for is basically just "WAHH I WANT ANOTHER SLOT!! GIME GIMME GIMME!! MORE MORE MORE!!"

It's not gonna happen.

Aspenor
07-12-2007, 12:22 PM
Honestly if I have room in my sorceror's spell slots for GREASE with 4 slots, you can make due.

Yes, a greasing sorceror.

Missing_Minds
07-12-2007, 12:50 PM
Honestly if I have room in my sorceror's spell slots for GREASE with 4 slots, you can make due.

Yes, a greasing sorceror.

I only grease with my bard, as at least I can also toss out freedom of movement to keep from getting lynched. :) I just wish the NPCs were slowed down by it as well. I will fully agree that there are not a lot of useful first lvl spells out there, but there are a lot of useful 2nd level spells. Also, usefulness was never in contention in the dev statement. The original dev statement was all about number.

And in answer to your question, I've got 14th lvl Wiz, 10 lvl sorc (muled because I was playing her via PnP rules and not DDO rules), and a 5th lvl sorc. (not counting my 14th lvl bard.)

And yes, I am going gimmie. But gimmie only because I should have been given it already. I did go back to find an old "who wins the battle" text file I made because of this back and forth debate. I just now added to it. As you have your own casters, I see no need to bore you with the details, but I'll include only the last paragraph of it for you.

Note, at this point in the game right now, I do believe that sorcs and wizards are almost balanced.
--------------------
Because they gave wizards 1 extra spell across the board for FREE, with no costs associated, but they rip away 1 first level spell and 2 second level spell away from the sorcs. Yeah, completely un fair here. This is truly the ONLY contention that I have.

I want sorcs to actually be given the correct number of known spells. I don't want wizards to be stripped of the extra spells, nor pay the price of losing the opposing school of magic. I only want what sorcs were supposed to at start. Is this so wrong?

Alavatar
07-12-2007, 12:59 PM
Honestly if I have room in my sorceror's spell slots for GREASE with 4 slots, you can make due.

Yes, a greasing sorceror.

If they implemented the spell system correctly wizards would be able to memorize more then a fixed number of spells, even in the Spell Point varient rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

"Preparing Spells
With this variant, spellcasters still prepare spells as normal (assuming they normally prepare spells). In effect, casters who prepare spells are setting their list of “spells known” for the day. They need not prepare multiple copies of the same spell, since they can cast any combination of their prepared spells each day (up to the limit of their spell points).

For example, Boredflak the 4th-level wizard has an Intelligence score of 16. When using the spell point system, he would prepare four 0-level spells, four 1st-level spells (three plus his bonus spell for high Int), and three 2nd-level spells (two plus his bonus spell for high Int). These spells make up his entire list of spells that he can cast during the day, though he can cast any combination of them, as long as he has sufficient spell points. "

So, an L14 wizard with a 30 INT would get 7 L1 spells (4 base + 3 from high INT) to memorize. On top of that they would get bonus spell points.

A sorcerer would not gain more spell slots (i.e. 5 base), just more spell points. In fact, they would get the same amount of bonus spell points as a wizard with an equivalent casting attribute value.

I believe that the SP system needs to be overhauled to match the PnP Spell Point Varient Rules; potentially multiplying total value by 2 to account for the increased number of encounters per rest.

Katianara
07-12-2007, 01:03 PM
There's no "correctly". It's a variant. This is turbine's variant. The differences between PnP and online are so large that you'd be bored to tears playing a tabletop game online.

I CAST MAGIC MISSILE.

OK

I LOG OFF AND COME BACK TOMORROW

Furgulder
07-12-2007, 01:09 PM
You make me laugh. I have 3 spell casters, and I have played 4 :)

Do you even play a wizard?

What you are asking for is basically just "WAHH I WANT ANOTHER SLOT!! GIME GIMME GIMME!! MORE MORE MORE!!"

It's not gonna happen.

LOL um, you have a lvl 1 sorcerer in your "3 spell casters" and you have a MC sorcerer that I wouldnt classify as a main caster by the look of it (sor/pal/rog)


IE, if they can cast more TIMES per day and if can have more SPELL SLOTS than a wiz added on top of the more casts, then why would anyone ever play a wiz... EVER.

Sorcs are a focused class. Wizzes can do anything, just not as well as a focused sorc, sort of like fighters vs pals.


You answered your own question right there.

Its already been proven that a properly equipped and built wizard only falls a couple hundred sp behind the same equipped/similarly built sorcerer.

Yes sorcerers cast faster. They also have the option of changing 1 spell per 3 days for a fee. Wizards can swap spells for free at a shrine, and that is their main draw over sorcerers.

Both classes are powerful in their own way, and both get lousy end reward.

Alavatar
07-12-2007, 01:13 PM
There's no "correctly". It's a variant. This is turbine's variant. The differences between PnP and online are so large that you'd be bored to tears playing a tabletop game online.

I CAST MAGIC MISSILE.

OK

I LOG OFF AND COME BACK TOMORROW

And Turbine's variant does not adequately compensate for the differences between PnP and CRPG MMO. By making spells prepared for wizards and clerics not variable depending on the primary casting attribute (i.e. STATIC) they have essentially turned those classes into half-baked mockeries of sorcerers.

Sorcerers should have their 5th first and second level spells, and wizards and clerics should have their spell preperation capabilities dependant on their primary casting attribute.

Lucian_Navarro
07-12-2007, 04:42 PM
<Insert> My 2 cents...

There are valid points on both sides of this but I can relate to the fact that its more about playability.

Yes,
Wizards are versatile, gain Bonus Feats, and have more spells in memory.
Sorcerers are NOT versatile, no Bonus Feats, and have less spells in memory but...

Sorcerers have thier niche, more spell points, faster casting and dont forget that thier prime attribute is Charisma making them an excellent sub-class for Paladins, Clerics, and Bards.

Would giving a few more lower level spell slots to Sorcerers break the game or tilt the scales of power between the arcane casters?

I think not!

Give them an aditional 1st and 2nd level spell slot... it will give more reason to play one.

ZEIRA
"The Angry Blue Faerie"

Mr._Dna
07-12-2007, 05:06 PM
Even having a capped sorc, I'm kind of on the fence about this one. Admittedly, constantly having to switch back and forth between knock and hypno pattern is VERY annoying. But it's true that, well, that's my punishment for more damage output. Sorc's are specialized, wizzies are versatile. On the other hand, it's not like I want to be able to do everything under the sun...I just want to be able to knock a freakin' chest or door every once in a while! Hell, I'd give up one of my 3rd level spells to get it. Why are all the most useful spells Level 2 anyway?? It really is a tough choice between: Blur, Resist Energy, Knock, Web, Otto's, Hypno pattern, Scorching Ray. Right now, I have Resist, Web, Hypno, Scorching. At least let me choose between Blur and Knock...make my party like me a LITTLE more. So, sorcs still won't get ALL the good level 2 spells that wizards have access to, but at least one more slot will be a small help.

P.S. GIMMIE, GIMMIE, GIMMIE!

P.P.S. I doubt we'll get our extra slots, btw, this late in the game. All the wizards will cry rivers of magical tears all over the forums...

Vendra
07-12-2007, 06:00 PM
Now there is a load of absolute cr@p right there. I could spout off the entire comparison AGAIN, but I really don't feel like it. If sorcs were actually given their fifth 1st and 2nd lvl spells, It would be all good. Are you saying that giving sorcs the correct number of spells would be over powering them? A 1st and 2nd lvl spell? *snicker*

I think that the devs should stick with the core rules and give sorcers their 5th slot for 1st and second level spells. Just for refrence here is what a 20th level sorc gets
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3

Treerat
07-12-2007, 08:22 PM
"Whaa whaa I'm an idiot who can't pick their spells with a little care, I'm too spineless to tell my group sorry I don't have that spell, and I'm so greedy I want to be the best casting class out there." That is what I'm hearing from these sorcerers who want more spells.

You want extra spell slots? Then give up the the faster casting times (ie free quicken spell) and more spell points from stats and items, THEN maybe you'll be regarded with serious consideration. Until then all you're doing as asking to be made into the only viable caster. And if Turbine goes that far, you can damn well bet even more people (including non-wizards) are going to say "f this ********" and leave. You see, not everyone is a hype-blinded fanboy or someone obsessed with always having the "only" class fitting into a spot*; we like having characters that useful aside from 1 or 2 quests that require a one-trick pony to work a rune. And if we think our characters are being sidelined to make a whiny class feel better, we tend to get very angry and do rash things; people with nothing to lose tend to consider even a "bad" outcome like being banned preferable to a slow death from "sorry we need a real caster (sorcerer) not a wizard."

SOE thought it could ignore its EQ customers who didn't play 30+ hours a week. And they kept playing that tune right up until Blizzard showed that the 800 pound gorilla in the SOE corner had a glass jaw when it came to competition. Blizzard thought it could ignore warriors game-breaking bugs. They kept ignoring them right up until angry warriors brought a certain highly populated role-playing server crashing down; even now they still jump when someone mentions an in-game protest. Mythic constantly stated that buff bots had no effect on Dark Age of Camelot's realm-versus-real combat. Yet when they took thrashing in population they jumped to implement a player-suggested fix to special servers (which are now the most-populated ones). Now what are the chances of these devs taking a product that is already hurting for customers, and doing something 100% assured to drive off at least as many customers as it would retain? Right - none if they want to remain employed and avoid having a major stain on their resume.

* If anyone here remembers EQ and didn't play a cleric, warrior, or enchanter I hope you can remember what that caused. Nothing like hearing "group at so-and-so needs a puller/tank/healer/cc/etc",being viable in that spot (ranger, paladin, druid, bard, etc), dodging monsters and other groups fights to get there, only to be told "sorry, we need a monk/ warrior/ cleric/ enchanter" to make you wonder why the hell someone even put your class into the game.

DKerrigan
07-12-2007, 11:46 PM
LOL um, you have a lvl 1 sorcerer in your "3 spell casters" and you have a MC sorcerer that I wouldnt classify as a main caster by the look of it (sor/pal/rog)

Uh, don't forget the lvl 14 necromancer...though I'm curious to know if he's built on a wizard or sorcerer chassie. I'd bet Sorc if he's MC w/ cleric for the full belt of necromancy.

SneakThief
07-13-2007, 12:05 AM
Faster casting times and almost 1.5 times the mana more than makes up for a couple spell slots.

If they were to give sorcerors a 5th slot at first level, the corresponding balance would be to give wizards a 6th. Do you see where I'm coming from??

Wizards are built for versatility, with more options available. Sorcerors are not meant to be versatile, they are meant to be powerhouses. They do what they do and they do it great. Wizards can tailor their spells to fit the occasion.

Complaining you dont have as many spell slots as PnP is pointless. By taking away spells/day and making mana, spell slots had to be rebalanced.

You're right ... faster casting times make up for NOT haveing 150% the mana. Sorcs SHOULD have 150% the mana there max casts per day for any level is 6 and a wizards is 4.

Wizards shouldnt get a 6th slot, they should be taken back down to 4. Sorcs SHOULD have 5 1st and 2nd level spells, and Wizards should ONLY have 4 of any level.

The balance between the 2 is that wizards can swap out their 4 per level to whatever they need for the adventure, and Sorcs cant. Wizards also get bonus feats every 5 levels.

So why should Sorcs be happy?

I for one have been asking for my 5th 1st and 2nd level for a while now. Maybe I should start bug reporting it. :D

jaitee
07-13-2007, 12:46 AM
yet another post for sorc vs wizzes

1st of all sorcs have their own world and wizzys has theirs, a wizard lands so much more spells then a sorc can, sorc chain cast, and if we miss, we cast again, wizards? cast once and BAM! it lands, using less sps, in the end both are even, as for spells slots sure y not, a wizard can cast true seeing, maybe even death ward, when a sorc couldnt, and before we had access to lvl 7 spells, a wizard had otto's sphere of dancing before the lvl raise, which is one of the best spells in the game in my opinion
and once again saying this how many times, it just wont end, everyone thinks a sorc is a ALL star, but you know, i want to make a wizard, ive had a sorc, and a wizard and rerolled my wizzy cause i splashed a lvl of rouge in it, i want some spells that i never get to use, like chain lightning, otto sphere, disnergrate(spelling error lol), greater heroism, mass hold person and many more, that i dont have on my sorc
-a few more low lvl spells wouldnt hurt the balance at all

Aspenor
07-13-2007, 06:38 AM
You're right ... faster casting times make up for NOT haveing 150% the mana. Sorcs SHOULD have 150% the mana there max casts per day for any level is 6 and a wizards is 4.

Wizards shouldnt get a 6th slot, they should be taken back down to 4. Sorcs SHOULD have 5 1st and 2nd level spells, and Wizards should ONLY have 4 of any level.

The balance between the 2 is that wizards can swap out their 4 per level to whatever they need for the adventure, and Sorcs cant. Wizards also get bonus feats every 5 levels.

So why should Sorcs be happy?

I for one have been asking for my 5th 1st and 2nd level for a while now. Maybe I should start bug reporting it. :D

There is no reason whatsoever that a sorceror should have more more memorized first level spells than a wizard.

The swapping itself is not the balance. If it were, then the two classes would be HORRIBLY imbalanced.

As it is right now there is no reason to play a wizard.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-13-2007, 07:05 AM
"Whaa whaa I'm an idiot who can't pick their spells with a little care, I'm too spineless to tell my group sorry I don't have that spell, and I'm so greedy I want to be the best casting class out there." That is what I'm hearing from these sorcerers who want more spells..

Oh shut up. People are just asking for what the rules say they should have.

The faster casting does not even come close to make up for the fact that Wizards get spontaneous casting in DDO, the most important advantage of a Sorc. What this game really needs is for Wizards to have to pick their spell choices including metamagic for the day before they leave the shrine. Oh, is that not flexible enough? Well if Wizards want flexibilty beyond the norm why shouldn't Sorc get what the rules say they should get?

Missing_Minds
07-13-2007, 07:16 AM
There is no reason whatsoever that a sorceror should have more more memorized first level spells than a wizard.

The swapping itself is not the balance. If it were, then the two classes would be HORRIBLY imbalanced.

As it is right now there is no reason to play a wizard.

By that same logic, there is no reason what so ever that wizards should be given 9 free spells. And guess what, THEY ARE. So why shouldn't sorcs get what should rightfully be already there? Turbine is supposedly striving to faithfully follow the core rules. This is one of them. Heck, it is even supported by the spell point variant.

What is a character without their tools of the trade? Worthless. Part of being the right person for the right job is having the proper tools. Fighting undead skellies? Proper tools become blunt weapons or disruption. Archers a plenty raining death on you? A good strong shield, and possibly the mastery to use it better.
Wizards can memories the right spell for the situation and require components.
Sorcs have only their known set and components.
As both Wiz and Sorcs need components for the spells, that difference is equal, but not the versitilty aspect. The cost of the wizard's versaitly comes into play in PnP via the fact that their spellbooks CAN be destroyed. Wizards also get bonus spells based on their int.

Well, guess what. In DDO wizards never risk their spell books at all. This turns them into glorified sorcs that can swap spells as needed. So we'll just give them the extra spell points as per variant rule, but still let them swap whenever. Now because of this... emm... what can we do to make it up to them? Why not just give them the extra spell via the school specialization but not make them loose any school of their choice? Sounds good but we'll still screw the sorc on number of spells because they are worthless.

Does this sound right to you? Screw the sorcs? I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I never talk down any class or race of this game. They have never given rangers their animal companions (but gave them both trees of combat instead. Not sure that makes up for it, but with the favored enemy asspect I guess it does) But I can't think of a single thing that Palis have been given that make up for the fact they can't have their mount.

If you take away some ablity of a class from PnP, there needs to be an equivalent return. So far I've yet to hear it for Pali's and the sorc's lack of 2 spells.

Aspenor
07-13-2007, 08:25 AM
Well if they give wizards their bonus spells based on their INT, then and only then can I get behind your idea :)

If they're going to change their current format in favor of a different one, they have to make sure to incorporate the whole thing to balance it.

But under the CURRENT system, sorcerors should not have equal known spells per level as wizards.

Gimpster
07-13-2007, 08:33 AM
By that same logic, there is no reason what so ever that wizards should be given 9 free spells. And guess what, THEY ARE. So why shouldn't sorcs get what should rightfully be already there?
As I already explained, what sorcs "rightfully" get is a limited selection from a very long and useful wiz/sorc spell list.

Since DDO does not have a long, useful spell list with many things that are valuable both in and out of combat, replicating the effect of the sorc versatility limitation means reducing their spells known.

Qwanderer
07-13-2007, 08:37 AM
Well if they give wizards their bonus spells based on their INT, then and only then can I get behind your idea :)

If they're going to change their current format in favor of a different one, they have to make sure to incorporate the whole thing to balance it.

But under the CURRENT system, sorcerors should not have equal known spells per level as wizards.

I agree with this. My PnP wizard has 7 first and 7 second level spells and he's only level 10 with a 24 INT, pale by the comparison of DDO yet has many more spells to play with. If we want to balance the caster classes by bringing them more in line with PnP it should be done across the board.

Aspenor
07-13-2007, 08:38 AM
As I already explained, what sorcs "rightfully" get is a limited selection from a very long and useful wiz/sorc spell list.

Since DDO does not have a long, useful spell list with many things that are valuable both in and out of combat, replicating the effect of the sorc versatility limitation means reducing their spells known.

QFT

Turbine has the current system in place because this game is so highly combat oriented. Sorcerors' spells per day is reflected in their large mana pool. Wizards get a few more spells available for preparation to reflect their broader knowledge of arcanum.

Missing_Minds
07-13-2007, 08:56 AM
As I already explained, what sorcs "rightfully" get is a limited selection from a very long and useful wiz/sorc spell list.

Since DDO does not have a long, useful spell list with many things that are valuable both in and out of combat, replicating the effect of the sorc versatility limitation means reducing their spells known.

Asp, this is not truth, this is opinion. If gimp was an actual dev and stated this, ok, then I could accept as truth.

I will agree that the DDO spell list is not as varied at all as compared to the official and offal published PnP stuff, however there is enough to allow for the correct number.

What is fact is that turbine strives to correctly mimic PnP. Giving sorcs the correct number of spells is a simple fix to do this and bring the game closer to it.

Wizards currently in DDO are just another form of sorc due to implementation. Lets make it more PnP shall we? I'll allow your cheating spontaneous casting as it is currently implemented, but in turn our spell books CAN be destroyed, MUST be repaired if damage is delt, re scribing spells that get destroyed, etc. However, I will not make it a requirement that the book be considered part of your inventory (aka take up bag space). It is your spell book that allows you your versatility, not your innate abilities that a sorc relies upon. As such this is a tool of your trade, and tools can be destroyed.

Now, should they also add in the variant rule that wizards get the bonus spells, I have no problems with that either. But given how OVERPOWERED our DDO counterparts are compared to PnP in stats, the bonus list is going to be huge. To accommodate this they should implement pull down spell casting selectors. Probably similar to resist energy and the like so ease in casting other wise wow.. are we going to run out of hot bars really darn fast.

Aspenor
07-13-2007, 08:59 AM
Personally all the changes you suggest are unnecessary.

Turbine has made their balance decisions already on this....What you are suggesting is unnecessary work just because you want some more spells.

And whether Gimp is a dev or not he is correct.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-13-2007, 09:35 AM
Wizards currently in DDO are just another form of sorc due to implementation. Lets make it more PnP shall we? I'll allow your cheating spontaneous casting as it is currently implemented, but in turn our spell books CAN be destroyed, MUST be repaired if damage is delt, re scribing spells that get destroyed, etc. However, I will not make it a requirement that the book be considered part of your inventory (aka take up bag space). It is your spell book that allows you your versatility, not your innate abilities that a sorc relies upon. As such this is a tool of your trade, and tools can be destroyed.


That would be a great addition to the game.



Now, should they also add in the variant rule that wizards get the bonus spells, I have no problems with that either. But given how OVERPOWERED our DDO counterparts are compared to PnP in stats, the bonus list is going to be huge. .

I agree that it would be impossible to add the bonus spells in DDO because the stats are allowed to creep way to high way to fast compared to PnP. Maybe if they implimented the bonus spells but did so on a slower basis to take into account the fact a PnP Wiz at L20 is lucky to have the Int a DDO wiz has at L10 then it would make sense.

FlyinS
07-13-2007, 10:33 AM
"Whaa whaa I'm an idiot who can't pick their spells with a little care, I'm too spineless to tell my group sorry I don't have that spell, and I'm so greedy I want to be the best casting class out there." That is what I'm hearing from these sorcerers who want more spells.



So from this immensely mature comment I can glean that the only true reason you're against this is because you would be upset that Wizards weren't grossly overpowered compared to Sorcerers then.

Gotcha. I can now with full confidence ignore anything else you say.

Treerat
07-13-2007, 10:59 AM
No, I am just sick and tired of people who MUST have their class be the the only contender for a spot in a group; and if they aren't they whine and cry and throw a tantrum until they get what they want and things like fun and game balance can go to hell. Since many posters here have tried being nice and logical, giving examples and reasons why, and all we hear is the same weak arguments reworded, I figured someone should try talking to these people at a level they understand.

They want to be taken seriously? They need to come up with serious arguments that consider not just how a change helps them, but how it could adversely affect others. Its presenting both sides of the story; of course I doubt these people will grasp that concept. They're entirely focuses on what THEY want and what benefits THEM now. Taking 5 minutes to consider someone beyond themselves is alien - it's all about "me, I, and my" for them.

Sokar6000
07-13-2007, 11:10 AM
If they were to give sorcerors a 5th slot at first level, the corresponding balance would be to give wizards a 6th. Do you see where I'm coming from??

Sorry, I simply don't. Your argument is flawed, because you are comparing the Wizard spells PREPARED to a Sorcerer spells KNOWN. Keep in mind that a Wizard can switch out his spells at any given time to fit the situation; whereas a Sorcerer only has the choices which have to get him through every quest. I use Niac's Cold Ray in about one quest, but I need it there for that quest or my guildmates would be toast. So I have a spell that only gets used in one quest occuping one of my first level slots.

But my real gripe is with the second level spell slots. I really need my fifth spell here. Because of changes in the game's system, Resist Energy is now better than Protection from Energy, however, I have no room on the second level to put in this spell.

Also, for the record, a Sorcerer is supposed to have more first and second level spells known than a Wizard has prepared. Check the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer) if you don't believe me.


You're right ... faster casting times make up for NOT haveing 150% the mana. Sorcs SHOULD have 150% the mana there max casts per day for any level is 6 and a wizards is 4.

Wizards shouldnt get a 6th slot, they should be taken back down to 4. Sorcs SHOULD have 5 1st and 2nd level spells, and Wizards should ONLY have 4 of any level.

The balance between the 2 is that wizards can swap out their 4 per level to whatever they need for the adventure, and Sorcs cant. Wizards also get bonus feats every 5 levels.

So why should Sorcs be happy?

I for one have been asking for my 5th 1st and 2nd level for a while now. Maybe I should start bug reporting it. :D

Quoted for awesomeness, and yes, we should start bug reporting it. :D

Alavatar
07-13-2007, 11:13 AM
I vote for implementing bonus spell slots for wizards based upon INT with base spell slots as set forth in the SRD.

I vote for sorcerers having the correct number of Known Spells per the SRD.

SneakThief
07-13-2007, 11:27 AM
As I already explained, what sorcs "rightfully" get is a limited selection from a very long and useful wiz/sorc spell list.

Since DDO does not have a long, useful spell list with many things that are valuable both in and out of combat, replicating the effect of the sorc versatility limitation means reducing their spells known.

Thats a ridiculous argument for known spells. You could make the same argument for SP, but no one is, and if someone tried, everyone else would scream bloody murder. There 1st and 2nd level list are more than long enough to justify allowing all of 5 known spells for sorcs.


There is no reason whatsoever that a sorceror should have more more memorized first level spells than a wizard.

The swapping itself is not the balance. If it were, then the two classes would be HORRIBLY imbalanced.

As it is right now there is no reason to play a wizard.

No reason whatsoever other than the RULES that Turbine claims to strive towards. The fact is, without bonus spells, it should be:

Known spells @ 20 -
Wizards = Unlimited
Sorcs = 5,5,4,4,4,3,3,3,3

Casts per day @ 20 -
Wizards = 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
Sorcs = 6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6

Bonus feats @ 20 -
Wizards = 5
Sorcs = Zero

Even without bonus spells, Wizards should still get 2 more spell choices per day total then Sorcs. In DDO, Wizards get MANY more ... And no one here has said to change the Wizard count.

Wizards can know an unlimited number of spells. They can swap them out as often as they like. They get 5 bonus feats.
Additionally in DDO they get more base spells then they should have, and they dont have to carry around a spell book ... etc etc etc ...

Sorcs get more SP (which they should have).
Additionally in DDO they get less low level spells than they should and a faster casting time.

There is no good reason not to give sorcs thier 5th 1st and 2nd level spells.

Treerat
07-13-2007, 11:50 AM
Sigh, do we need to do brain-transplants for you people to get the point?

Bonus spell slots for wizards ARE POINTLESS! We could memorize EVERY spell we have and still be behind sorcerers because they are the yardstick to which Turbine allots shrines to quest. Put in simple terms; because Turbine neutered the number of actually effective spells in the game down to a handful at each spell level, the ability to memorize extra spells (and to shuffle spell selection) is NOT as valuable as being able to cast faster and more often. All giving wizards more spell slots would do is let wizards have 5 or so useful spells, and the rest sitting around unused outside of one or two rarely-visited instances in the game. Now if those extra spell slots were translated into extra spell points that WASN'T available to sorcerers then an extra spell slot wouldn't matter as much. But you can safely bet that as wizards started closing the SP-gap with sorcerers, the sorcerers would be screaming bloody murder about how groups wouldn't take a sorcerer over a wizard.

For those whining (complaining is too dignified a term - it implies some validity to their argument) about not having room for resist energy; welcome to the trade off for almost being able to hit 2000 sp and casting faster. My bard has to make the same decision about which spells to take, but you don't see bards demanding more spell slots. Apparently they understand that not having to pay to learn spells comes with a price, part of which is not being able to change spells at will. Maybe you should realize that you have to pick your spells with some care instead of taking what is the current flavor of the month selection for PvP or one raid then expecting it to be as effective in completely different content.

Putting this as simply as possible; if you want to be taken seriously come up with an idea that addresses the SP & cast time advantage sorcerers have over wizards if you want more versatility. Right now all you're doing is trying to throw up a smoke screen and hope wizards won't see that they gain nothing versus a sorcerer. Newsflash people - if most of us can see through the gimmicks Turbine has been throwing at us, you're amateurish attempts aren't even going to make us blink.

FlyinS
07-13-2007, 12:01 PM
So Treerat, 5 free Metamagic feats at level 20 is nothing?

No mention of that makes your post look utterly...



lol

Aspenor
07-13-2007, 12:06 PM
Check the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer) if you don't believe me.


Those rules do not matter. This is DDO not PnP, Turbine must balance the game around their designs. They have done so. DDO characters have access to things that PnP characters can't even dream of.

You honestly don't think Turbine looked at those rules, considered the implications, and then decided on their own system? They are the DM, they may alter the rules as they see fit. Their house, their rules.

SneakThief
07-13-2007, 12:09 PM
I vote for implementing bonus spell slots for wizards based upon INT with base spell slots as set forth in the SRD.

I vote for sorcerers having the correct number of Known Spells per the SRD.

I complete agree!

Wizard 34 INT @ level 20

Base: 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
Bonus:3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,1
Total: 7,7,7,7,6,6,6,6,5

I dont know if 7 will fit on the window, but if not, just make it wider :D Better make it 8 (since thats the max) just in case.

Aspenor
07-13-2007, 12:12 PM
btw despite the fact my arguments may point to the contrary, I am taking a practical perspective. Turbine has to made managerial decisions on what content is most important, and how that content must be balanced.

I would fully support the changes proposed above, IE sorcerors spell slots, wizards additional spell slots, spell books, etc.

However I understand the complexity and time consuming nature of such a project, and I feel that Turbine would be better off continuing on their planned route and coming out with questing content.

Drider
07-13-2007, 12:14 PM
At this point, there is no point in having a Wiz. A Sorc at end game is superior due to faster casting times and more spell points.

Yes wizards get the ability to swap spells whenever they please, but the amount of spells that are worth using are not as abundant in DDO as the are in PnP. At this point in the game, what else do you really need besides a handfull of spells? On my sorc I can go through most dungeons using just three spells, PK, FoD, and Fire Wall.

As for metamagics, you really don't need more then 3. Maximize or Empower, Heighten, and in some cases Extend. Enlarge is nice and all but nowhere near a must have. Quicken spell and Eschew materials are a joke.

Maybe with the Metamagic changes coming in Mod 5 that will change.. but I don't see it being so drastic that it will make Wizards even compable to what sorcs are at this point.

They would need to increase the spell list by about 50% with useful spells before I feel my wiz will be as useful as my sorc. This pains me as I personally like the wizard better then the sorc overall. They are just not able to hang at this point.

Alavatar
07-13-2007, 12:37 PM
I complete agree!

Wizard 34 INT @ level 20

Base: 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
Bonus:3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,1
Total: 7,7,7,7,6,6,6,6,5

I dont know if 7 will fit on the window, but if not, just make it wider :D Better make it 8 (since thats the max) just in case.

That alone would make me favor my fledgling wizard over my capped sorcerer. Being able to have Acid Fog, Dance Sphere, Ball Lighting, Chain Lightning, and a host of other spells prepared instead of the limited spells my sorcerer has I think would greatly account for the sorcerer advantage of 1.5x spell points and faster cooldown times.

Once again, I vote for bonus spell slots for wizards based on INT (per SRD) with base spell slots per SRD and spells known for sorcerers per SRD.

Missing_Minds
07-13-2007, 01:26 PM
Once again, I vote for bonus spell slots for wizards based on INT (per SRD) with base spell slots per SRD and spells known for sorcerers per SRD.

I should add to this. If they do add in bonus spells for wizards, they should also add in the extra spell feat so sorcs could get more spells known as well.


And Asp, I agree 100%, this is DDO not PnP. But like any game that has a DM (in this case, Turbine) players have always argued, debated, whined, cried, bribed, asked, etc. to get rules changed in their favor. And good DMs will accept such if the arguments are valid and even better, make sense.

Sorcs have a bases and valid reason that DDO is based on PnP so why not give them the correct number of spells known. We have not been given any answer to this AFTER they have added in more spells.
Why do wizards have 1 more than the base amount of spells known? We have infered and extrapolated guesses but no direct answer.

What can I say.. I miss the seemingly by gone days when devs posted back on topics.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-13-2007, 01:33 PM
Every sorc has seen a posting "must have XXXX spell" for a group. Yes this is stupid. Yes every quest can be completed without a particular spell. But it does get sorc turned away.

So yes, the ability to change spells is a very powerful tool in this game.

Also the 5 meta magic feats are very powerful. They can contribute not just to raw spellcasting power but flexibilty. Anyone who doesn't see the value of 5 extra spell slots is too into cookie cutter builds and understand the value of the various feats. (And just wait, if they introduce all the feats that they could, such as energy admixture people will be saying "why play a sorc")

Randomly saying "give me more spells" is something that I disagree with. I wish my sorc had another L7 slot, and another L6, and another L5... but you know what, that's the deal for a sorc. This game however claims to be "real D&D" so it would be nice if they followed the rule book unless there was a specific reason that it was unworkable in the online version. Two missing spell slots is just arbitrary and pointless.

Alavatar
07-13-2007, 01:34 PM
I should add to this. If they do add in bonus spells for wizards, they should also add in the extra spell feat so sorcs could get more spells known as well.

Good point. I agree.

Sokar6000
07-14-2007, 12:29 AM
At this point, there is no point in having a Sorc. A Wiz at end game is superior due to having a larger number of high level spells prepared.

Fixed, Quoted for Truth.

jaitee
07-14-2007, 01:02 AM
right now i think wizzys are just as good as a sorc, just most wizzys dont know hwo to play their class

Mr._Dna
07-14-2007, 03:23 AM
Enough with the people shouting: "______ (insert the opposite of whatever class you play) are the only good casters, period."

Any reasonable person can see that the two classes are pretty well balanced at the moment. What I am wondering is, will sorcerers getting an extra 1st and 2nd level spell slot disturb that balance overly much? For that matter, did the developers specifically remove those slots for game balance? (Because they've otherwise followed the PnP progression to the letter for sorcerers- this will be my last mention of PnP, because well, DDO is NOT PnP, so that's not a very good argument for ANYTHING).

We all know the list, but it's worth taking an objective look....

Sorcerers:

Pros: Faster casting
More spell points (most are in the 1700-1800 range)
Don't have to inscribe spells to learn them (this is pretty insignificant,
since scrolls of every spell can be purchased at a vendor.)

Cons: Fewer spells known
Can only swap spells once every 3 days.

Wizards

Pros: Can change spells at tavern/rest shrine
More spells known (access to spells one character level sooner)
Bonus metamagic feats - I think this is being overlooked. At least 3
metamagics are more or less essential for arcanes: Heighten,
Maximize (or Empower), Extend (if only for Haste). Freeing up
those 3 feat choices allows for things Improved Mental
Toughness, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, etc.

Cons: Fewer spell points (most I know are around 1300 or so these days)
Slower casting times


Here's my take on why wizards still have the edge over sorcerors, by way of example:

Level 14 wizard runs "A Cabal for One" - spell selection: FoD, Mass Hold (or SoS). Sorcerer spell selection: FoD.

Same runs "Reaver's Fate" he's gonna take Dancing sphere and Banishment (Mind Fog to back it up). Sorcerer: FoD. Now what happens if you get 3 sorcerers as your only casters in that raid? Are they gonna have to rely on Hypno Pattern, instead of Sphere? Again, hopefully one of them even has Hypno Pattern, considering the log jam for level 2 spells. It's just one example - and let's not get side tracked with discussing the tactics of that particular raid, either. But this kind of thing happens constantly when you play a sorcerer. Unless you're running your own groups, the leaders have a certain way they know how/prefer to do the quests and you just have to hope that your spells match what they like to do, or that you can convince them of another way to do it.

Keep this in mind as well - going forward, we are going to get more spells at ALL levels. For every new spell we get that is worth using EVER, wizards just got a bump in power relative to sorcerers.

Okay, enough rambling...proceed with the unreasoned one-sided responses :)

HumanRogue
07-14-2007, 10:29 AM
Level 14 wizard runs "A Cabal for One" - spell selection: FoD, Mass Hold (or SoS). Sorcerer spell selection: FoD.

Same runs "Reaver's Fate" he's gonna take Dancing sphere and Banishment (Mind Fog to back it up). Sorcerer: FoD. Now what happens if you get 3 sorcerers as your only casters in that raid? Are they gonna have to rely on Hypno Pattern, instead of Sphere? Again, hopefully one of them even has Hypno Pattern, considering the log jam for level 2 spells. It's just one example - and let's not get side tracked with discussing the tactics of that particular raid, either. But this kind of thing happens constantly when you play a sorcerer. Unless you're running your own groups, the leaders have a certain way they know how/prefer to do the quests and you just have to hope that your spells match what they like to do, or that you can convince them of another way to do it.

Keep this in mind as well - going forward, we are going to get more spells at ALL levels. For every new spell we get that is worth using EVER, wizards just got a bump in power relative to sorcerers.

Okay, enough rambling...proceed with the unreasoned one-sided responses :)

Agreed. Seen it myself with my sorcerer... Don't know how one extra 1st and one extra 2nd lvl spell for a sorcerer is so gamebreaking for a wizard though. They still have all the versatility at 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc level spells... (And always will even if they give the correct amount of 1st and 2nd lvl spells to a sorcerer.)

Mr._Dna
07-15-2007, 05:43 PM
Agreed. Seen it myself with my sorcerer... Don't know how one extra 1st and one extra 2nd lvl spell for a sorcerer is so gamebreaking for a wizard though. They still have all the versatility at 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc level spells... (And always will even if they give the correct amount of 1st and 2nd lvl spells to a sorcerer.)


That's all I'm saying. I don't want ALL the best spells for EVERY situation, just a couple more low level ones for the sake of convenience. I think it's kinda ridiculous that there are people who play wizards thinking that a minor change like this will somehow invalidate their class choice.