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DolfaTrueheart
07-10-2007, 05:10 PM
So noone will answer the question about the barrier in reaver and swappin toons but any thread in relation is being deleted (Like Dryth's today)...So much for ever getting an official response...look forward to the fix obviously coming soon!

Whatever happened to just answering what your clients ask you...

Tavok
07-10-2007, 05:23 PM
What do you expect from Turbine?

They've have already completely lost any hope I once had in them. They won't respond to a single thread, they won't even answer a question for christ's sake. What is wrong with you people? Do you even have any clue on how to run a business?

But yet Tasty Ham is a subject that always gets a dev responce, and in fact has gotten the TotW 2 or 3 times now. Tasty Ham, obviously quite important.

(Not to dis Kargon, but just showing the direction Turbine is heading with their game)

Mad_Bombardier
07-10-2007, 05:30 PM
<knock, knock>
"Who is it?"
"Goons."
"Who?"
"Hired goons."

(P.S. I think Turbine's answer was quite clear.)

Hendrik
07-10-2007, 05:34 PM
<knock, knock>
"Who is it?"
"Goons."
"Who?"
"Hired goons."

(P.S. I think Turbine's answer was quite clear.)

I agree Mad. Very clear....

Threads detailing exploits and how to do it will be deleted.

:cool:

Aspenor
07-10-2007, 05:38 PM
I agree Mad. Very clear....

Threads detailing exploits and how to do it will be deleted.

:cool:

::cries:: aw I missed something juicy.

DolfaTrueheart
07-10-2007, 05:40 PM
I agree Mad. Very clear....

Threads detailing exploits and how to do it will be deleted.

:cool:

Well Mr. Turbine since you obviously know there intentions explain why another thread explaining the same thing is still up.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=108900 <-- Edit to add link of other thread explaining the same thing the thread got deleted explained.

Vhlad
07-10-2007, 05:45 PM
Well Mr. Turbine since you obviously know there intentions explain why another thread explaining the same thing is still up.

Which has been up for over a month. IMO Dryth's was deleted because it was, 1) a repeat issue and 2) not development related. Unless someone posted something new in there that I missed, the month old thread contains everything that was discussed (and more).

bigal4458
07-11-2007, 01:24 PM
Well Mr. Turbine since you obviously know there intentions explain why another thread explaining the same thing is still up.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=108900 <-- Edit to add link of other thread explaining the same thing the thread got deleted explained.

Apparently this thread is gone now too. I blame the underwear gnomes

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 01:32 PM
So noone will answer the question about the barrier in reaver and swappin toons but any thread in relation is being deleted (Like Dryth's today)...So much for ever getting an official response...look forward to the fix obviously coming soon!

Whatever happened to just answering what your clients ask you...

It's this kind of attitude that probally makes them not answer.

You aren't owed an answer. You can certainly feel that you are.

They have said that phrasing a question that way is a good way to NOT get an answer.

The funny thing is, many people expect to be treated a certain way. Like in this case, you had a question, and you expect your question to be answered in a timely manner, and when it wasn't, you express how you feel about how you are being treated.

That's fair enough.

However, Turbine has stated many times how people should post, ask questions and all that, and many players basically say, screw that, i don't have to, I pay you.

If you want to be treated a certain way, and say so, does it not follow that you should extend the same curtesy and treat people the way they say they want to be treated?

moonprophet
07-11-2007, 01:44 PM
This is probably not the thread to ask this, but since it is frequented by many "founders", I was wondering if you could tell me how I might also obtain a paid position with turbine?

bigal4458
07-11-2007, 01:45 PM
It's this kind of attitude that probally makes them not answer.

You aren't owed an answer. You can certainly feel that you are.

They have said that phrasing a question that way is a good way to NOT get an answer.

The funny thing is, many people expect to be treated a certain way. Like in this case, you had a question, and you expect your question to be answered in a timely manner, and when it wasn't, you express how you feel about how you are being treated.

That's fair enough.

However, Turbine has stated many times how people should post, ask questions and all that, and many players basically say, screw that, i don't have to, I pay you.

If you want to be treated a certain way, and say so, does it not follow that you should extend the same curtesy and treat people the way they say they want to be treated?

This door swings both ways Dane, and that is no way a direct comment on your personal lifestyle :D

Turbine is reknown for their (lack of) customer service and "Men in Black" policy to things like these. I don't think it is unreasonable for a paying customer to feel owed an honest and respectful answer or explination to important issues.

Do you?

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 01:47 PM
Turbine is reknown for their (lack of) customer service and "Men in Black" policy to things like these. I don't think it is unreasonable for a paying customer to feel owed an honest and respectful answer or explination to important issues.

Do you?
but the thing is they used to give us excellent responses, and they used to not delete things. But the customers were mean spirited and yelled at them for giving them answers, so the answers were cut back.

Bamff
07-11-2007, 01:52 PM
Dane, your comments do have some merit but at the same time there are certain courtesies that are, of a fashion, owed to any customer, whether internal or external.
I've been in sales and support for many years, and no matter how rude the customer gets (barring personal, abusive and profane attacks), it's my job to do everything in my power to satisfy them.

I think more companies in general need to remember that companies go out of business, one customer at a time.

Yaga_Nub
07-11-2007, 01:54 PM
but the thing is they used to give us excellent responses, and they used to not delete things. But the customers were mean spirited and yelled at them for giving them answers, so the answers were cut back.

I think that's why people in the formus have gotten even more upset. They used to answer all the time. I think we F'ed that up with our responses but they did set a certain precedent that I hope we can get back to at some point.

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 01:56 PM
I think that's why people in the formus have gotten even more upset. They used to answer all the time. I think we F'ed that up with our responses but they did set a certain precedent that I hope we can get back to at some point.
Aye its a vicious circle but unfortunately I dont believe it will return to the way it was.

I think the customers are going ot get ruder and ruder, and possibly more infractions will be given out. But i think if anything it will either stay the way it is now, or get worse. Which is sad, because we had such a good thing going for us.

DKerrigan
07-11-2007, 02:11 PM
Though one of those threads had the perspective of in game support as it being fair...these threads are being moderated as if this is an exploit. I'd say "in before it's gone", but no one will really see it. I'd suggest asking an in game GM and see if their song has changed. If it hasn't today, I'm sure it will in the next week.

bigal4458
07-11-2007, 02:17 PM
but the thing is they used to give us excellent responses, and they used to not delete things. But the customers were mean spirited and yelled at them for giving them answers, so the answers were cut back.

I vaguely remember this time, but as I didn't frequent the forums as often (now I work an office job, what else is there to do??), I don't remember the customer base being any more rude than they are now.

And besides, that is not a justifyable reason to stop providing customer services. I get people hanging up on me all the time and being rude, I can just tell my manager "i'm not making anymore sales or outcalls because the customers are mean." I mean, it's in the job description, "customer services", to serve the customer. Right?

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 02:21 PM
This door swings both ways Dane, and that is no way a direct comment on your personal lifestyle :D

Turbine is reknown for their (lack of) customer service and "Men in Black" policy to things like these. I don't think it is unreasonable for a paying customer to feel owed an honest and respectful answer or explination to important issues.

Do you?

You hear both good and bad Customer Service stories. I would say it's hard to judge the quality of CS based on what people say, knowing for a fact that people distort the facts to be the victim to garner sympathy.

Every good and bad CS story, I take with a grain of salt to it.

And so much of peoples opinions are based on how they see things. Some may feel that this isn't an exploit. So they say, Turbine shouldn't moderate based on that, because it's not. Some say it is.

However, our personal opinions on things don't matter to Turbine when they make a choice as to how to handle things.

They have internal policies which are based not on our views, but theirs. So in this example, if they felt that the subject of that thread would give people ideas they don't want acted on, they are going to remove it.

And if their policy is to not respond to that kind of stuff, most likely it's their policy to also not talk about what they won't talk about.

Yes, it puts them in a tough place, because they are being silent.

But it's like this. I say, I got a secret. What's that secret? I can't tell, it's a secret. Come on, tell us. NO I can't! Why tell people I have a secret if I don't want to tell it?

If they have a policy to not talk about certain things, then they probably also don't talk about what they don't talk about. Fight Club.

And then players, knowing this, make a big deal about how they didn't answer a question, putting Turbine in a no win situation.

And yes, I agree with the whole, we F'ed up. I've been saying it from day 8 of the forums going live. You need to be nice to get treated the same. And of course, I've been called a kiss butt for advocating mature, responsible dialog with Turbine so that they feel invested in us and be forth coming.

I know I am so crazy, aren't I?

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 02:21 PM
I vaguely remember this time, but as I didn't frequent the forums as often (now I work an office job, what else is there to do??), I don't remember the customer base being any more rude than they are now.

And besides, that is not a justifyable reason to stop providing customer services. I get people hanging up on me all the time and being rude, I can just tell my manager "i'm not making anymore sales or outcalls because the customers are mean." I mean, it's in the job description, "customer services", to serve the customer. Right?
THe customer base is alot ruder then it used to be. Tis why the Kobold showed up.(no not mocat)

well there is a difference between you calling people and them calling you. I used to work cellular 411, and i used to work support for an online application.

People calling 411 were rude and beligerent And I did not have to help them. Same as the support, if they were rude, I told them to call back when they were calmed down and i would help them.

I also used to work at best buy. Once again if the customer was rude I didnt have to deal with them, i would call a manager over and they would either calm down or be told to leave.

The customer is always right is a myth.

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 02:25 PM
And besides, that is not a justifyable reason to stop providing customer services. I get people hanging up on me all the time and being rude, I can just tell my manager "i'm not making anymore sales or outcalls because the customers are mean." I mean, it's in the job description, "customer services", to serve the customer. Right?

These forums aren't customer service, no matter what people say. Saying they are doesn't make them so.

There is a whole Customer Service department seperate from this forum.

The forums are a privilage, at Turbines luxury. If they have said that any question posted here is not guarenteed and answer in any format, then post your questions with that understanding.

Coming back and complaining about it isn't going to help either.

Avonwey
07-11-2007, 02:26 PM
There is a whole Customer Service department seperate from this forum.


QFT, if by "Customer Service department" you mean "monkey who types 'sorry I can't help you with that'". Otherwise, lol.

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 02:28 PM
THe customer base is alot ruder then it used to be. Tis why the Kobold showed up.(no not mocat)

well there is a difference between you calling people and them calling you. I used to work cellular 411, and i used to work support for an online application.

People calling 411 were rude and beligerent And I did not have to help them. Same as the support, if they were rude, I told them to call back when they were calmed down and i would help them.

I also used to work at best buy. Once again if the customer was rude I didnt have to deal with them, i would call a manager over and they would either calm down or be told to leave.

The customer is always right is a myth.

You are so right, Ziggy.

What some people here are forgetting, people aren't being paid to take anyones abuse. Just because you work in customer service, doesn't mean you are paid to be abused by the customers.

A good CS person might beable to turn a customers bad attitude around, but so often as not, the person is simply set on yelling.

I used to defuse customers that were upset with one simple questions. "What would you like me to do to make you happy" About 9 out 10 people had NO ANSWER for this, as they had never thought that far, just that they were angry, and felt they need to yell and call names.

If after asking them that, they still continued to yell or call name or swear, I was totally free and within the customer service guidelines to turn that customer away until they changed their attitude. Because we were told that we don't have to be treated that way.

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 02:29 PM
QFT, if by "Customer Service department" you mean "monkey who types 'sorry I can't help you with that'". Otherwise, lol.

If that's what it coems down to, so be it. However I wouldn't be surprised if many of those stories where altered to make the player seem like the victim, when the CS person just couldn't do what the player wanted.

llevenbaxx
07-11-2007, 02:36 PM
If that's what it coems down to, so be it. However I wouldn't be surprised if many of those stories where altered to make the player seem like the victim, when the CS person just couldn't do what the player wanted.

LOL come on, noone gets into CS so people will like them. They should absolutely, positively have thicker skin than that. Not really an excuse for inactivity imo.

Just seems like if they cant tell you what you want to hear, they dont say anything. Thats bad customer service. Period.:)

FoxOne
07-11-2007, 02:47 PM
If you pay for a service,& you get no service whatsoever,then you can voice your frustration however you like it.

In this case,Turbine is the worse service i have EVER seen.I am a Client services person myself & i do all i can to satisfy my clients jerks included.Think if they paid a membership fee every month,came with a question & i just turned around they would go away?not by a longshot.

The reality is Turbine doesn't care,this game is going down the tubes fast (from what i see) & they invest nothing to at least keep it to it's current level.Marketing is the very base of any business,Where have you ever seen a DDO ad?I never have.Not even online.

I have myself asked very politely a question,under technical assistance,waited well over a month,checked back & there as still no answer.

Turbine is like in the Simpsons,A bunch of typing monkeys with cigarettes( thanks avon for the mental pic).We are just the paying client taking it up the *** so really,we're not that important.I wasn't checking the forums till about 2 months ago (which is when i signed for a forum account) Then realized a lot of people complain about their service & canned answers of **** such as "we know this quest is bugged in many places,we do nothing about it but tough ****,you can just re-run it from scratch,we are way too incompetent to actually help you."

It feels good to let some of the anger out.


EDITED: after reading a few more posts Dane, i'll tell you this,i take abuse every week doing my job & yes that is why i am paid.To think otherwise,you never had such a job i guess.I don't care as it's not directed at me personally,pertty sure they can do the same.I have seen many well thought & written posts still unanswered.

P.S. You should apply for Turbine in NY,they need people like you to protect them since they are clueless.

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 02:50 PM
If you pay for a service,& you get no service whatsoever,then you can voice your frustration however you like it.

So True, I agree 100%. The forums are free and run at a cost to Turbine and not part of your monthly fee. You are totally getting what you paid for from the forums.


In this case,Turbine is the worse service i have EVER seen.I am a Client services person myself & i do all i can to satisfy my clients jerks & b***hes included.Think if they paid a membership fee every month,came with a question & i just turned around they would go away?not by a longshot.

The reality is Turbine doesn't care,this game is going down the tubes fast (from what i see) & they invest nothing to at least keep it to it's current level.Marketing is the very base of any business,Where have you ever seen a DDO ad?I never have.Not even online.

I have myself asked very politely a question,under technical assistance,waited well over a month,checked back & there as still no answer.

Turbine is like in the Simpsons,A bunch of typing monkeys with cigarettes.We are just the paying client taking it up the *** so really,we're not that important.I wasn't checking the forums till about 2 months ago (which is when i signed for a forum account) Then realized a lot of people complain about their service & canned answers of **** such as "we know this quest is bugged in many places,we do nothing about it but tough ****,you can just re-run it from scratch,we are way too incompetent to actually help you."

It feels good to let some of the anger out.

What the CS can do, and what a person demands are often two different things. The few times I've contacted CS in game, I was helped, in a good amount of time, and to my satisfaction.

As for those poilet questions you posted here in the forums. Guess what, they have posted over and over again that there are better ways, faster ways, and correct ways to get technical help. That posting for technical help, from Turbine, here in the forums, is the slowest way to get an answer. Why? There is to much stuff for them to sort through to find what they should respond to.

How many times do they have to tell people. Send your problems to us this way, not in PMs or Forums posts, because we are looking at those and answering those to help people not PMs or Forum Posts.

So if you don't do it the way they asked so they can help you as fast as possible, is it their fault it took them a month to find you post and respond? You couldn't meet them half way?

I mean good lord, they have made it know and have said this over and over and over and over. What they can't do is make people follow that.


BTW Dane,did i not read your goodbye post last week or something?

I dunno you might have read it, but did you comprehend it? The two aren't one in the same. Because if you had actaually comprehended it, you would have read that I had several months left on my prepaid subscription. And had you continued to read it, and comprehend it, you would have seen that at the end, I posted that several friends had bought me several months worth of game time to keep me around.

I do appreciate your concern though.

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 02:53 PM
I have myself asked very politely a question,under technical assistance,waited well over a month,checked back & there as still no answer.

You mean this technical assistance?
http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55

where it says

Technical Assistance If you are experiencing technical issues, post to this forum for help from other players. NOTE: For official technical support, please visit http://support.turbine.com

Not to mention your technical question had nothing to do with the game not working properly on your computer.

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 03:01 PM
You mean this technical assistance?
http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55

where it says


Not to mention your technical question had nothing to do with the game not working properly on your computer.

Like I said, people alter the facts to make themselves the victims.

WolfSpirit
07-11-2007, 03:02 PM
LOL come on, noone gets into CS so people will like them. They should absolutely, positively have thicker skin than that. Not really an excuse for inactivity imo.

Just seems like if they cant tell you what you want to hear, they dont say anything. Thats bad customer service. Period.:)

Thicker skin? How thick is thick enough?
Customer service people should be very patient.
Very politically correct.
but they are not there just so every person who doesn't like the way something works, or feels that they deserve more, can contact them and be abusive or abrasive.

Bamff commented that barring personal, abusive and profane attacks customer service should be able to take it. Well Personal, abusive, and profane attacks are common in a forum setting. More so here because of the strict rules of D&D and differences between PnP & DDO.
I've seen MANY such posts even going as far as targeting and naming Customer Service and Senior Customer Service personnel alike.
So now everyone has to deal with it. Jerks become even better asses behind the internet screen, even more than with phones. Not even a real voice from here...

People generally talk much more respectful to a person standing right in front of them... Well, I did say Generaly...

Slap someone in the mouth enough times because you don't like their answers, and chances are good you will eventually stop getting answers at all...

bigal4458
07-11-2007, 03:03 PM
THe customer base is alot ruder then it used to be. Tis why the Kobold showed up.(no not mocat)

well there is a difference between you calling people and them calling you. I used to work cellular 411, and i used to work support for an online application.

People calling 411 were rude and beligerent And I did not have to help them. Same as the support, if they were rude, I told them to call back when they were calmed down and i would help them.

I also used to work at best buy. Once again if the customer was rude I didnt have to deal with them, i would call a manager over and they would either calm down or be told to leave.

The customer is always right is a myth.

This is true, but it doesn't mean you don't have to help the next customer that calls in with a legitimate question, for the reason of "well the guy before you was a reak prick, so i'm not helping you"

And I understand them not responding on an exploit issue, it is their noted policy and I can buy that. However, as a whole, the response to concerns, bugs and important game issues do go overlooked when it comes to dev or CS responses.

Shecky
07-11-2007, 03:04 PM
If you pay for a service,& you get no service whatsoever,then you can voice your frustration however you like it.

In this case,Turbine is the worse service i have EVER seen.I am a Client services person myself & i do all i can to satisfy my clients jerks included.Think if they paid a membership fee every month,came with a question & i just turned around they would go away?not by a longshot.

The reality is Turbine doesn't care,this game is going down the tubes fast (from what i see) & they invest nothing to at least keep it to it's current level.Marketing is the very base of any business,Where have you ever seen a DDO ad?I never have.Not even online.

I have myself asked very politely a question,under technical assistance,waited well over a month,checked back & there as still no answer.

Turbine is like in the Simpsons,A bunch of typing monkeys with cigarettes( thanks avon for the mental pic).We are just the paying client taking it up the *** so really,we're not that important.I wasn't checking the forums till about 2 months ago (which is when i signed for a forum account) Then realized a lot of people complain about their service & canned answers of **** such as "we know this quest is bugged in many places,we do nothing about it but tough ****,you can just re-run it from scratch,we are way too incompetent to actually help you."

It feels good to let some of the anger out.


EDITED: after reading a few more posts Dane, i'll tell you this,i take abuse every week doing my job & yes that is why i am paid.To think otherwise,you never had such a job i guess.I don't care as it's not directed at me personally,pertty sure they can do the same.I have seen many well thought & written posts still unanswered.

P.S. You should apply for Turbine in NY,they need people like you to protect them since they are clueless.

Wow. That bitterness is gonna land you right back in prison.

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 03:05 PM
This is true, but it doesn't mean you don't have to help the next customer that calls in with a legitimate question, for the reason of "well the guy before you was a reak prick, so i'm not helping you"

And I understand them not responding on an exploit issue, it is their noted policy and I can buy that. However, as a whole, the response to concerns, bugs and important game issues do go overlooked when it comes to dev or CS responses.

But we aren't talking about calling in.

We are talking about responses on these forums. Getting a response on these forums isn't part of Customer Service.

People need to seperate Customer Service and the Forums. They are NOT the same, and you will not get the type of Customer Service that people are expecting from this Forum.

It's not what it's meant for.

The proper channels and such are all listed, much is stickied, and there are many posts on the proper ways to communicate all the different issues that come up.

Rage_Dragonbane
07-11-2007, 03:05 PM
This is probably not the thread to ask this, but since it is frequented by many "founders", I was wondering if you could tell me how I might also obtain a paid position with turbine?

moonprophet, "Founder" is not a paid position with turbine. Founder is just a title for those who were here during the headstart weekend. Alot of Founders where also beta testers other just preordered the game.

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 03:08 PM
This is true, but it doesn't mean you don't have to help the next customer that calls in with a legitimate question, for the reason of "well the guy before you was a reak prick, so i'm not helping you"

And I understand them not responding on an exploit issue, it is their noted policy and I can buy that. However, as a whole, the response to concerns, bugs and important game issues do go overlooked when it comes to dev or CS responses.
Aye i wont dispute either paragraph. But a CS rep in game telling you they cannot spawn something and someone getting hostile.

Here let me give you what CS in game can do. straight from sparker.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1102555&postcount=39

Let's clear up a few things about all this "wrong information".

GMs can NOT force quest completion or advancement. This has never been done a single time for a single player, ever. It simply is not possible. Now if you mean "force completion" by respawning a bugged monster that will advance a quest or objective when it's killed, then yes, we can do that, but we can NOT simply advance a quest or complete an objective for a player. This has never been done. In the case of Blaze, recreating him does not allow players to complete the quest if they did not speak to him at the start. Unfortunately that means that players must redo the quest when this happens.

GMs can not reset zones, the only way to reset an instance is for it to be abandoned by all players for at least 5 minutes. Again, GMs have never "reset a zone".

Track down fraudulent transactions? I do not know what you are referring to here.

as to the turbine reps(they arent CS in any form but what we say they are(well except for sparker:D ) they come here on there free time to talk to us, and answer our questions.

FlyinS
07-11-2007, 03:09 PM
but the thing is they used to give us excellent responses, and they used to not delete things. But the customers were mean spirited and yelled at them for giving them answers, so the answers were cut back.

This doesn't change the fact that they will not respond in a thread where it's either:
1) A topic that a lot of people are interested in (removes the 'respond to every question counter)
2) Worded in a perfectly civil manner

When the customer base then sees several responses to a thread about Tasty Ham or a cake made to look like the Plane of Night, well of course they are going to get frustrated.

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 03:09 PM
EDITED: after reading a few more posts Dane, i'll tell you this,i take abuse every week doing my job & yes that is why i am paid.To think otherwise,you never had such a job i guess.I don't care as it's not directed at me personally,pertty sure they can do the same.I have seen many well thought & written posts still unanswered.

P.S. You should apply for Turbine in NY,they need people like you to protect them since they are clueless.

Then I challenge you to find the part of your job discription that specificlly says that you are to take abuse.

Cause funny, there are LAWs that prevent that, federal laws, not just state laws.

And again, I guess you totally miss the fact that they have said the forums are not the place to go to get answers. No matter how well written or poilet those posts are.

P.S. Turbine isn't in NY.

Furgulder
07-11-2007, 03:10 PM
This is probably not the thread to ask this, but since it is frequented by many "founders", I was wondering if you could tell me how I might also obtain a paid position with turbine?

They were people that signed up for these forums when they were new. Course those of us who were around before these newer ones, but were too lazy to sign up early for these didnt get cool nick names!

Or a helmet.

(I do have a bunch of waterbreathing clickies from ordering from Target though so HA!)

FoxOne
07-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Wow. That bitterness is gonna land you right back in prison.

Must feel a lot looser now too

Aesop
07-11-2007, 03:11 PM
They were people that signed up for these forums when they were new. Course those of us who were around before these newer ones, but were too lazy to sign up early for these didnt get cool nick names!

Or a helmet.

(I do have a bunch of waterbreathing clickies from ordering from Target though so HA!)

Yeah I would have but they announced that prootion after I had already preordered... and I didn't feel like canceling


Aesop

bigal4458
07-11-2007, 03:13 PM
Aye i wont dispute either paragraph. But a CS rep in game telling you they cannot spawn something and someone getting hostile.

Here let me give you what CS in game can do. straight from sparker.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1102555&postcount=39


as to the turbine reps(they arent CS in any form but what we say they are(well except for sparker:D ) they come here on there free time to talk to us, and answer our questions.

I guess i'm mixing up the use of the terms Customer service and Community Relations. Community relations is what i'm talking about, not so much CS, as I tend to agree with Dane (ahhh, the agony) that each case can be interpreted differently and is exposed to numerous biases.

And in a response to Sparkers Quote, I have been in a Titan raid where he bugged, and a CS rep actually FINISHED THE QUEST FOR US. Honest. The completion tab popped up and we looted. So it is possible, but not a preferable solution.

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 03:15 PM
And in a response to Sparkers Quote, I have been in a Titan raid where he bugged, and a CS rep actually FINISHED THE QUEST FOR US. Honest. The completion tab popped up and we looted. So it is possible, but not a preferable solution.
That was probably very early on in the WF titans career. They no longer do that. Or i should say they should no longer be doing that.

bigal4458
07-11-2007, 03:17 PM
That was probably very early on in the WF titans career. They no longer do that. Or i should say they should no longer be doing that.

This is correct, i believe right after the patch that semi-nerfed him.

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 03:20 PM
Needless to say, that doesn't change the fact that Sparker's a liar.
and we wonder why we dont get responses.

EDIT: Ninja point

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 03:20 PM
This is correct, i believe right after the patch that semi-nerfed him.
Aye and those GM's who did so got in trouble. because they werent supposed to.

Avonwey
07-11-2007, 03:21 PM
That was probably very early on in the WF titans career. They no longer do that. Or i should say they should no longer be doing that.

Needless to say, that doesn't change the fact that Sparker's a liar.

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 03:21 PM
I guess i'm mixing up the use of the terms Customer service and Community Relations. Community relations is what i'm talking about, not so much CS, as I tend to agree with Dane (ahhh, the agony) that each case can be interpreted differently and is exposed to numerous biases.

And in a response to Sparkers Quote, I have been in a Titan raid where he bugged, and a CS rep actually FINISHED THE QUEST FOR US. Honest. The completion tab popped up and we looted. So it is possible, but not a preferable solution.

That's just it. Thanks for finding a good way of saying it.

People are coming here and expecting Customer Service from the Community Relations people.

And when they don't get it, they are getting very rude. And again, they aren't paid to be abused and treated like that. And I feel sad for anyone that feels they have to take that from people. Lord knows I don't, and I tell my boss when he steps over the line. Funny, I get a Mary Poppins rating every review as well (Practicaly perfect in every way)

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 03:22 PM
Needless to say, that doesn't change the fact that Sparker's a liar.






:eek:

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 03:22 PM
Aye and those GM's who did so got in trouble. because they werent supposed to.

Perhaps Turbine should have made a big deal about how those people got in trouble and made posts all over the place and put it in the launcher.

Oh wait, you can't do things like that. It's illegal and abusive and those people could sue Turbine...

tsk tsk tsk.

Shecky
07-11-2007, 03:25 PM
Must feel a lot looser now too

Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly?

Do I detect a coprophiliac?

Vordax
07-11-2007, 03:25 PM
Needless to say, that doesn't change the fact that Sparker's a liar.

That doesn't prove he's a liar. The GM's have said that they can kill mobs (though they are not allowed to). So if the completion of a quest is triggered by a mob dying then the quest will be completed. The GM still did not complete the mission though, the GM just killed a mob.

Vordax

bigal4458
07-11-2007, 03:26 PM
That's just it. Thanks for finding a good way of saying it.

People are coming here and expecting Customer Service from the Community Relations people.

And when they don't get it, they are getting very rude. And again, they aren't paid to be abused and treated like that. And I feel sad for anyone that feels they have to take that from people. Lord knows I don't, and I tell my boss when he steps over the line. Funny, I get a Mary Poppins rating every review as well (Practicaly perfect in every way)

Yes, however I was responding to Ziggy's post about how they (meaning devs and comm realtions) USED to respond here and now they don't because the people are rude. I was more arguing their logic and noting the increased frustration based on the topics they choose to respond to and the ones that are ignored.

I concede, it isn't their job, and rude people suck (is that hypocritical?), but nevertheless, there is nothing more annoying from a customers perpective than pouring out a concern that is important to you and be given the apperance (I say this because often just because nothing is said, doesn't mean nothing is being done) of being ignored.

bigal4458
07-11-2007, 03:29 PM
Needless to say, that doesn't change the fact that Sparker's a liar.

And please note, this was NOT the purpose of my post nor the conclusion I thought anyone would come to. I am beginning to see these changes Ziggy is speaking of :(

Dane_McArdy
07-11-2007, 03:36 PM
Yes, however I was responding to Ziggy's post about how they (meaning devs and comm realtions) USED to respond here and now they don't because the people are rude. I was more arguing their logic and noting the increased frustration based on the topics they choose to respond to and the ones that are ignored.

I concede, it isn't their job, and rude people suck (is that hypocritical?), but nevertheless, there is nothing more annoying from a customers perpective than pouring out a concern that is important to you and be given the apperance (I say this because often just because nothing is said, doesn't mean nothing is being done) of being ignored.

What can I say, often a few bad people ruin it for many. I've suggested that reasonable and civil posts will go farther then rude, and I got told to basicaly stick my head up my hoo-haa.

There are people who get mad and say so, when Turbine posts in a thread about ham, or anything that doesn't deal directly with a game issue. Saying, why are you posting in that thread, but not this thread?

And when you challenge them, their response is often, It only takes a few seconds to post a reply, even if it's we don't have an answer at this time.

So, posting in a game issue thread is ok, because it only takes a few seconds, and a few seconds really don't eat into all the other stuff you have to do.

But posting in a nonsense thread, which also only takes a few seconds, is bad, because that few seconds could be better spent.

Come on, if a person is going to say that spending a few seconds posting doesn't effect anyones ability to do their job, then you can't turn around and complain when they spend a few seconds posting.

The fact that so many people can't see how contradictory they are in their demands of anyone, is really starting to give me a headache.

DolfaTrueheart
07-12-2007, 06:27 AM
It's this kind of attitude that probally makes them not answer.

You aren't owed an answer. You can certainly feel that you are.

They have said that phrasing a question that way is a good way to NOT get an answer.

The funny thing is, many people expect to be treated a certain way. Like in this case, you had a question, and you expect your question to be answered in a timely manner, and when it wasn't, you express how you feel about how you are being treated.

That's fair enough.

However, Turbine has stated many times how people should post, ask questions and all that, and many players basically say, screw that, i don't have to, I pay you.

If you want to be treated a certain way, and say so, does it not follow that you should extend the same curtesy and treat people the way they say they want to be treated?


Damn! I thought this thread was done like dinner after a day guess I should check more often.

You see Dane I didn't post the original question...and the proper customer service department wont answer the question.

All Turbine has done to this topic is delete every thread that asks the questions.

I myself with my comment see things like this. Turbine is a gaming company that we pay a fee for. We are the client that use there services, so if we're asking for clarification on a topic why cant we get it? .... I'm not sure what job many people do here but our client is outright mean sometimes yet we still answer there questions and do the job for them otherwise where would we be in the business world.

PS. If Dev's and CS Reps can post on topics like what do you call the symbols on the wheels and kargon's tasty ham like some have pointed out, perhaps they should post answer's to more topics here as well. Cause there obviously reading the forums.

Edit - DOPE guess I should read the whole thread first before responding cause posting on nonsense threads was brought up.

Dane_McArdy
07-12-2007, 06:37 AM
Damn! I thought this thread was done like dinner after a day guess I should check more often.

You see Dane I didn't post the original question...and the proper customer service department wont answer the question.

All Turbine has done to this topic is delete every thread that asks the questions.

I myself with my comment see things like this. Turbine is a gaming company that we pay a fee for. We are the client that use there services, so if we're asking for clarification on a topic why cant we get it? .... I'm not sure what job many people do here but our client is outright mean sometimes yet we still answer there questions and do the job for them otherwise where would we be in the business world.

PS. If Dev's and CS Reps can post on topics like what do you call the symbols on the wheels and kargon's tasty ham like some have pointed out, perhaps they should post answer's to more topics here as well. Cause there obviously reading the forums.

Edit - DOPE guess I should read the whole thread first before responding cause posting on nonsense threads was brought up.

I'll have to be vague about this, so this thread doesn't get deleted.

The way the question in the original thread was presented seemed innocent enough. They didn't want raid loot to go to waste. Fair enough, they wanted to know if what they did was considered and exploit.

Now, imagine this. There are people that can take down the raid mobs with 1-4 players. I can easily see people offering the service of defeting raid mobs for others to get the loot without having to actually run the raid themselves.

Which, would be an exploit. So rather then have that information out there for people to get bad ideas with, they delete it.

Ziggy
07-12-2007, 07:47 AM
I myself with my comment see things like this. Turbine is a gaming company that we pay a fee for. We are the client that use there services, so if we're asking for clarification on a topic why cant we get it? .... I'm not sure what job many people do here but our client is outright mean sometimes yet we still answer there questions and do the job for them otherwise where would we be in the business world.

PS. If Dev's and CS Reps can post on topics like what do you call the symbols on the wheels and kargon's tasty ham like some have pointed out, perhaps they should post answer's to more topics here as well. Cause there obviously reading the forums.

Turbine has stated before that they dont talk about exploits. Odds are good that since the threads were deleted, its an exploit.

Ive got a quote from KK around here somewhere let me find it.

Now mind you it was about the 8th and higher slots, which we can discuss now because they gave us final word on whats what.

But read the quote and hopefully it will explain why they delete threads and dont discuss them.

I'd like to point out, that in the original thread that discussed this the other day, (which remained on the forums for at least a day, before someone complained that it was still there...) an official response was given by Quarion, and I quote:


Unfortunately, it was not intended for this feature to behave in this way, and it will be fixed very soon. It is suggested that the players avoid utilizing this behavior as it may result in disappointment once the fix is published. Because of this I will close this thread.


Because I'm getting VERY tired of removing these threads and handing out the infractions, I'm making a decision to keep this one here, and simply lock it. DO NOT repost on this. DO NOT Discuss how to use this exploit. DO NOT discuss the removal of these threads. Doing so, will result in an immediate permanent ban with no appeals. We do not want innocent players thinking that this BUG is the way things should be, creating several extra characters and then getting upset when the bug is fixed.

A bug is a bug, and even when enjoyed, sometimes they absolutely must be fixed. This is one of those bugs.

Vhlad
07-12-2007, 08:06 AM
I don't think it is unreasonable for a paying customer to feel owed an honest and respectful answer or explination to important issues.
Do you?

I just think it is funny (and dissapointing).

If I do THIS, will I get banned?
Hello? Anyone? PM sent. PM sent.
"I dont think so, but ask XXXX to make sure"

PM sent. PM sent.
Thread started. Hello?
Thread started. PM sent.

In game GMs asked again.
"I dont think so, but ask XXXX or YYYY to make sure"

PM sent.
Thread started.

Hello? Anyone?

Notice the question is NOT asking if THIS is an exploit, nor is it asking if THIS is a bug, and nor is it asking if THIS will be fixed. It is asking if doing THIS will get you banned.

How can anyone play an online game and have fun if they don't know what they can get banned for? Do we have to play in fear? It should be VERY clear what we can get banned for.

Saying "doing anything that is not intended can get you banned" is great. Except how are we supposed to know what is intended?

Is it intended for me to use my free dragonmark quest respec token to take a non dragon mark feat? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to grab an alt to open a quest on elite for a toon that hasnt done it on normal or hard? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to zone in a completed quest with a toon that didn't complete it? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to be able to solo the queen or the stormreaver? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to be able to use beholder cookies to get to areas I shouldn't be able to? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to start von 5 with 4 people, but only send 2 in to face velah, while 2 wait outside for the first group to complete and then go in to face a fresh velah? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to zerg a low lvl through a quest chain (like tangleroot) using a lvl 14 so that the low lvl can get fast bound end rewards? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to have 6 million plat? Will it get me banned?

Obviously doing some things that are not intended get you banned, while doing other things that are not intended will not get you banned. Some clear policy would be nice, but since we don't have that, they should at least (privately) be answering people when they ask if doing something can get them banned.

LIMBUS
07-12-2007, 09:05 AM
Yes, however I was responding to Ziggy's post about how they (meaning devs and comm realtions) USED to respond here and now they don't because the people are rude. I was more arguing their logic and noting the increased frustration based on the topics they choose to respond to and the ones that are ignored.

I concede, it isn't their job, and rude people suck (is that hypocritical?), but nevertheless, there is nothing more annoying from a customers perpective than pouring out a concern that is important to you and be given the apperance (I say this because often just because nothing is said, doesn't mean nothing is being done) of being ignored.


People are that way, if the devs are "thin skinned" they need to get over it. We are PAYING customers, and all that pay have to be delt with.


Ill tell you their response these days <crickets>. I really think they dont care that much for this game anymore, the Aug update will probably come in Oct.

tihocan
07-12-2007, 09:12 AM
Didn't read the whole thing but... it's funny, they did the same as with the red-name immunities thing, as I had predicted. So at least they stay coherent :)

Dane_McArdy
07-12-2007, 09:15 AM
I just think it is funny (and dissapointing).

If I do THIS, will I get banned?
Hello? Anyone? PM sent. PM sent.
"I dont think so, but ask XXXX to make sure"

PM sent. PM sent.
Thread started. Hello?
Thread started. PM sent.

In game GMs asked again.
"I dont think so, but ask XXXX or YYYY to make sure"

PM sent.
Thread started.

Hello? Anyone?

Notice the question is NOT asking if THIS is an exploit, nor is it asking if THIS is a bug, and nor is it asking if THIS will be fixed. It is asking if doing THIS will get you banned.

How can anyone play an online game and have fun if they don't know what they can get banned for? Do we have to play in fear? It should be VERY clear what we can get banned for.

Saying "doing anything that is not intended can get you banned" is great. Except how are we supposed to know what is intended?

Is it intended for me to use my free dragonmark quest respec token to take a non dragon mark feat? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to grab an alt to open a quest on elite for a toon that hasnt done it on normal or hard? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to zone in a completed quest with a toon that didn't complete it? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to be able to solo the queen or the stormreaver? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to be able to use beholder cookies to get to areas I shouldn't be able to? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to start von 5 with 4 people, but only send 2 in to face velah, while 2 wait outside for the first group to complete and then go in to face a fresh velah? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to zerg a low lvl through a quest chain (like tangleroot) using a lvl 14 so that the low lvl can get fast bound end rewards? Will it get me banned?
Is it intended for me to have 6 million plat? Will it get me banned?

Obviously doing some things that are not intended get you banned, while doing other things that are not intended will not get you banned. Some clear policy would be nice, but since we don't have that, they should at least (privately) be answering people when they ask if doing something can get them banned.

The rules cover all this. Perhaps rereading them will help.

If you are caught breaking the rules, you may get banned.

See the word may? That means if you end up in this situtation, Turbine will make a judgement call about each and every situtation, at the time.

That's what MAY means in this case. Your actions MAY get you banned, if Turbine makes the choice. There are too many variables to make a list of everything.

So, understanding the word MAY, now consider the way the game is built.

The game is designed around the player making a character, running through the quests offered and that character getting the rewards for that quest.

Some items, the more powerful ones, can't be traded, they are intended to stay with the CHARACTER that completed the quest and was given or won the right to loot that unique rare item. Not the player, or the account, the Character.

So a character that doesn't complete a quest in the fashion it's designed to be completed, shouldn't be getting that loot.

There are a few rewards, like Drow, which are tied to your account. Once you unlock Drow on that server, you can always make Drow. 32 point builds are tied to a character, and if you delete that character you lose the ability to make 32 point characters. Simple enough.

So, if you find a way to circumvent the basic set of character runs quest, character gets non tradable reward, then that is probaly and exploit, and you MAY get banned.

Asking if you can get banned for having 6 million plat is silly.

Asking if you will get banned for zerging low level quest, is silly, because they have said there isn't any problem with that.

Running Velah the way you described isn't bannable. You still ran the quest to get to that point. Reserving some players so they can be fresh isn't cheating, it's a form a tactics. Though I'm not sure you can do it this way.

If you can solo a raid mob, good for you. So long as you don't do it in a way that is cheating.

The rules can't layout every type of situation. All they can do is give a guide. It's pretty simple. Play the game as it's intended.

Vhlad
07-12-2007, 11:57 AM
Thanks for pointing out the word MAY. I really needed that pointed out to me. Thank you so so much.

Although, I think I need to quote myself here.


Saying "doing anything that is not intended can get you banned" is great. Except how are we supposed to know what is intended?

Do you see the word CAN? Do you understand what CAN means?

Usage note:
Can and may are frequently but not always interchangeable in senses indicating possibility: A power failure can (or may) occur at any time. Despite the insistence by some, that can means only “to be able” and may means “to be permitted,” both are regularly used in seeking or granting permission: Can (or May) I borrow your tape recorder? You can (or may) use it tomorrow. Sentences using can occur chiefly in spoken English. May in this sense occurs more frequently in formal contexts: May I address the court, Your Honor? In negative constructions, can't or cannot is more common than may not: You can't have it today. I need it myself. The contraction mayn't is rare.

I could go on, but I think I'm done with that point.

Vhlad
07-12-2007, 12:19 PM
Some points on game design:

Allowing characters to enter completed quests is a design choice. It is not a bug or a flaw. It is 100% intended by development design for characters to be able to enter completed quests. Whether or not that will change, due to assorted consequences of this design decision, remains to be seen.

Proof that this is a design choice is simple: One of the game updates allowed characters who started a quest and zoned out before completion to zone back in to get XP and completion after the rest of the party completed it (so long as someone held the instance open). Another game update (possibly the same one?) allowed characters to loot chests that were opened by others so long as they were in the group. This was a change from what was required before (which was, the character had to be inside the quest).

Now, let us re-examine part of what you said, bearing the above in mind:



The game is designed around the player making a character, running through the quests offered and that character getting the rewards for that quest.

Some items, the more powerful ones, can't be traded, they are intended to stay with the CHARACTER that completed the quest and was given or won the right to loot that unique rare item. Not the player, or the account, the Character.

So a character that doesn't complete a quest in the fashion it's designed to be completed, shouldn't be getting that loot.


By design decision, a character can start a quest, zone in, then zone out, while the rest of the party does everything, kills everything, and be fully 100% able to zone back in at the end, get every chest, and get every reward (so long as they were in the party, and were in the quest at one point (for say, 2 seconds) before completion. In fact, that character can be running a completely different quest simultaneously.

An application would be, 3 people do pop and 3 people do crucible (each member zones in each quest and swaps). Each group finishes in under 20 min. They then swap quests, get XP for both, and loot for both.

Exploit? Bannable?

There are many examples of actions that are somewhat questionable, but are 100% within the game mechanics. Using the dragonmark quest free respec token to take a non dragonmark feat is an example I mentioned earlier.

Is it so unreasonable in certain cases to ask for clarification on what is bannable? Is it so unreasonable to expect an answer, especially when in-game GM's specifically ask you to ask for an answer?



The rules can't layout every type of situation. All they can do is give a guide. It's pretty simple. Play the game as it's intended.

Until I find a crystal ball, I cannot fully 100% know what is intended. Maybe it is intended for us to be able to take any feat from the free dragonmark token quest? I don't know why you are so against people thinking they have the right to get an official answer when they ask what will get them banned from a game they are paying monthly for.

Ziggy
07-12-2007, 12:32 PM
Some points on game design:

Allowing characters to enter completed quests is a design choice. It is not a bug or a flaw. It is 100% intended by development design for characters to be able to enter completed quests. Whether or not that will change, due to assorted consequences of this design decision, remains to be seen.

Proof that this is a design choice is simple: One of the game updates allowed characters who started a quest and zoned out before completion to zone back in to get XP and completion after the rest of the party completed it (so long as someone held the instance open). Another game update (possibly the same one?) allowed characters to loot chests that were opened by others so long as they were in the group. This was a change from what was required before (which was, the character had to be inside the quest).

Now, let us re-examine part of what you said, bearing the above in mind:



By design decision, a character can start a quest, zone in, then zone out, while the rest of the party does everything, kills everything, and be fully 100% able to zone back in at the end, get every chest, and get every reward (so long as they were in the party, and were in the quest at one point (for say, 2 seconds) before completion. In fact, that character can be running a completely different quest simultaneously.

An application would be, 3 people do pop and 3 people do crucible (each member zones in each quest and swaps). Each group finishes in under 20 min. They then swap quests, get XP for both, and loot for both.

Exploit? Bannable?

I believe the answer is dumb. Because of the -80% XP late entry fee.
and you have to be in the party when the chest is looted, not just be in the quest at the start or end.

Vhlad
07-12-2007, 12:37 PM
I believe the answer is dumb. Because of the -80% XP late entry fee.
and you have to be in the party when the chest is looted, not just be in the quest at the start or end.

Maybe I wasn't clear. You zone in first, then zone out to swap quests. There will be no XP late entry fee, because you were in there early.

People in the same party can run different quests. I never mentioned anything about leaving party.

Dane_McArdy
07-12-2007, 12:49 PM
Maybe I wasn't clear. You zone in first, then zone out to swap quests. There will be no XP late entry fee, because you were in there early.

People in the same party can run different quests. I never mentioned anything about leaving party.

But that's not what was being talked about in the thread that got deleted. Like I said, have to be vague because talking about details will get the thread deleted.

Dane_McArdy
07-12-2007, 12:54 PM
Thanks for pointing out the word MAY. I really needed that pointed out to me. Thank you so so much.

Although, I think I need to quote myself here.



Do you see the word CAN? Do you understand what CAN means?

Usage note:
Can and may are frequently but not always interchangeable in senses indicating possibility: A power failure can (or may) occur at any time. Despite the insistence by some, that can means only “to be able” and may means “to be permitted,” both are regularly used in seeking or granting permission: Can (or May) I borrow your tape recorder? You can (or may) use it tomorrow. Sentences using can occur chiefly in spoken English. May in this sense occurs more frequently in formal contexts: May I address the court, Your Honor? In negative constructions, can't or cannot is more common than may not: You can't have it today. I need it myself. The contraction mayn't is rare.

I could go on, but I think I'm done with that point.

Really? Read the part I colored. To me that seems to be saying, sometimes can and may can be used in the same manner.

So, saying some actions MAY or some actions CAN get you banned seem to be saying the same thing.

But what your point is, I can't fully understand.

Ziggy
07-12-2007, 12:55 PM
Maybe I wasn't clear. You zone in first, then zone out to swap quests. There will be no XP late entry fee, because you were in there early.

People in the same party can run different quests. I never mentioned anything about leaving party.
ok its a little more clear to me. BUt someone is still gonna get hit with either a late entry or re-entry.

So its not like your cheating the system. There are penalties already in place for this mechanic.

As to the Loot, ok guess ya got me there. Im on the fence about what to call that though.

Reversion
07-12-2007, 01:01 PM
If I do THIS, will I get banned?
"I dont think so, but ask XXXX to make sure"

In game GMs asked again.
"I dont think so, but ask XXXX or YYYY to make sure"


The question is centered around the above. Turbine has not answered the question through PMs or on the forums, when Vhlad was instructed to do so twice by in-game support. In-game also told him that it wasn't an exploit, in their opinion, but that he should ask for the answer here (either PMs or Forum post). Both have been done, and he still hasn't received an answer.

Scenario: Guild A follows in game support's opinion and at a later date gets banned for doing it. No official comment has been made, but they asked repeatedly if it was an exploit and were never answered outside of in game saying it wasn't bannable. If Guild A in the wrong for doing something that they were told was okay to do?

All that is being sought here is confirmation on what was told to them. An answer in PMs would help, but something, even remotely vague, would benefit the community. Something as simple as saying: "The Stormreaver is working properly."

Ziggy
07-12-2007, 01:10 PM
The question is centered around the above. Turbine has not answered the question through PMs or on the forums, when Vhlad was instructed to do so twice by in-game support. In-game also told him that it wasn't an exploit, in their opinion, but that he should ask for the answer here (either PMs or Forum post). Both have been done, and he still hasn't received an answer.

Scenario: Guild A follows in game support's opinion and at a later date gets banned for doing it. No official comment has been made, but they asked repeatedly if it was an exploit and were never answered outside of in game saying it wasn't bannable. If Guild A in the wrong for doing something that they were told was okay to do?

All that is being sought here is confirmation on what was told to them. An answer in PMs would help, but something, even remotely vague, would benefit the community. Something as simple as saying: "The Stormreaver is working properly."

One could also take the idea that every thread detailing the "is this an exploit" thing, has been deleted by turbine.

ANd they only do that for threads that detail exploits. They normally lock "bad" threads, but when it details an exploit they delete it. So odds are good if 2 or more threads detailing X are erased by turbine, its probably an exploit and dont do it.

Ulf
07-12-2007, 02:04 PM
The question is centered around the above. Turbine has not answered the question through PMs or on the forums, when Vhlad was instructed to do so twice by in-game support. In-game also told him that it wasn't an exploit, in their opinion, but that he should ask for the answer here (either PMs or Forum post). Both have been done, and he still hasn't received an answer.

Scenario: Guild A follows in game support's opinion and at a later date gets banned for doing it. No official comment has been made, but they asked repeatedly if it was an exploit and were never answered outside of in game saying it wasn't bannable. If Guild A in the wrong for doing something that they were told was okay to do?

All that is being sought here is confirmation on what was told to them. An answer in PMs would help, but something, even remotely vague, would benefit the community. Something as simple as saying: "The Stormreaver is working properly."


There are three possible scenarios I can think of to explain this:

1) The ingame GM did not advise Vhlad to seek an answer either via PMs or Forum post. Vhlad possibly misinterpreted what the GM said.

2) The in game GM which advised Vhlad to seek an answer either via PMs or Forum post mistakenly gave instructions which are counter to Turbine policy. (due to numerous reasons: change in policy, miscommunication between departments, etc.) Thus, there may indeed be a policy that such issues are not discussed via PMs or Forum post. Assuming this is the case Vhlad should directly contact costumer service via phone or links previously posted. I would hope that if this is what has happened Vhlad could not only get the answer to his questions, but the ingame support staff could be informed of the proper response to give customers in similar future situations.

Both of these first two could be simple mistakes made by either party. Thus, a reasoable solution can be obtained and this will hopefully avoid future problems of the like. I truly hope that is all that has occured. However, if this is not the case, the only other explanation I can come up with is.

3) Extremely poor customer service. This should be unacceptable to all players.

Reversion
07-12-2007, 04:55 PM
Up until the last day or two (I wasn't checking every day), another thread was left up that was much more detailed then Drith's post. Vhlad already pointed that out above in this post and gave the following reasons:


Which has been up for over a month. IMO Dryth's was deleted because it was, 1) a repeat issue and 2) not development related. Unless someone posted something new in there that I missed, the month old thread contains everything that was discussed (and more).

Now, though, that post has been deleted. *shrug* I am not saying one way or another on the issue, but that I think some clarification would benefit the community. I know of one guild being banned, but their actions were completely different than the given circumstances.

We all have made mistakes. The threads about this topic could have become deleted, just like the thread's about the extended downtime for server maintenance. Whether or not it is the case, simply deleteing the thread doesn't seem to be solving this issue.

Vhlad
07-12-2007, 07:07 PM
So, saying some actions MAY or some actions CAN get you banned seem to be saying the same thing.

But what your point is, I can't fully understand.

You pointed out MAY and made a big deal about it. I used the word CAN. I then responeded to your "MAY" rant by defining the word CAN for you. Since you finally agree they say the same thing, why the (have a nice day) did you emphasize the word MAY?


But that's not what was being talked about in the thread that got deleted. Like I said, have to be vague because talking about details will get the thread deleted.
And this thread is about not getting answers (privately or otherwise) to very legitimate questions.

FYI, any discourse between a GM/player should not be made public on these forums. I didn't mention it. Sorry.