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rimble
07-10-2007, 02:19 PM
I've seen Ghost Touch weapons. And I found a nice +5 Ghost Touch Heavy Steel Shield. But I don't think I've ever seen Ghost Touch armor. Any reason why? Does it exist and I've really just never seen it?

I'd love to have a nice piece of armor to pair with the above shield for my ghost busting shenanigans.

As a Paladin I really resent being the play toy of Wraiths, Ghosts, and Spectres.

Or even better, justify my high levels of Paladin and give me a Ghost Touch armor spell. Yeah, that's what I want.

Harbinder
07-10-2007, 02:21 PM
Umm, I'm no expert but Ghost Touch lets you bypass the 50% chance of missing incorporeals when you attack them...with a weapon......what exactly would that be doing on armor?:confused:

MysticTheurge
07-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Because DDO has no incorporeal attacks.

Impaqt
07-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Your Planning on beating ghosts to death with pieces of your armor?

LeLoric
07-10-2007, 02:41 PM
I think what hes looking for is something that prevents the wraiths and spectres from being able to bypass his armor bonus, at this time the best thing is mage armor pots. Although maybe this would be a good Named/Raid Item in mod 5 is something to help prevent the armor bypass.

MysticTheurge
07-10-2007, 02:52 PM
I think what hes looking for is something that prevents the wraiths and spectres from being able to bypass his armor bonus, at this time the best thing is mage armor pots. Although maybe this would be a good Named/Raid Item in mod 5 is something to help prevent the armor bypass.

Incorporeal creatures in DDO do not use any special rules for their attacks.

DDO has no incorporeal attacks. Thus there is no Ghost Touch armor.

Malachi_Stormlight2
07-10-2007, 03:01 PM
Im pretty sure that most of those wraiths ignore my armor bonus every time. Or else they just have absolutely insane to hit scores.

LeLoric
07-10-2007, 03:02 PM
Incorporeal creatures in DDO do not use any special rules for their attacks.

DDO has no incorporeal attacks. Thus there is no Ghost Touch armor.

yes they do, when attacking they do not take your armor bonus into affect with their chance to hit try frighting a wraith wearing armor and not ive done the tests and they hit the same amount with over 100 attacks, now drink a mage armor potion and you will find the to hit chance drastically decreases. This means that wraiths and other incorporeal are not factoring in armor bonus when attacking.

Dane_McArdy
07-10-2007, 03:21 PM
yes they do, when attacking they do not take your armor bonus into affect with their chance to hit try frighting a wraith wearing armor and not ive done the tests and they hit the same amount with over 100 attacks, now drink a mage armor potion and you will find the to hit chance drastically decreases. This means that wraiths and other incorporeal are not factoring in armor bonus when attacking.

I believe that's because they are making a touch attack. To touch someone you don't have to worry about the type of armor.

Mage armor creats a force around that that helps stop anything from actually touching you, no matter how it's delivered, via simply touching to swinging a weapon.

LeLoric
07-10-2007, 03:31 PM
It may not be coded exactly as a incorporeal attack but mage armor would also help against that, that is the main point of the thread asking for something that protects against the wraith attacks as armor does not.

MysticTheurge
07-10-2007, 03:53 PM
I believe that's because they are making a touch attack. To touch someone you don't have to worry about the type of armor.

DDO doesn't have touch attacks, of any sort.

LeLoric
07-10-2007, 03:59 PM
DDO doesn't have touch attacks, of any sort.

I dont care what it is coded as wraiths do not take into account your armor bonus try the tests i posted above you will see the results.

rimble
07-10-2007, 04:07 PM
Uhm, yeah...

First, of course we all know this isn't PnP, but here is the Ghost Touch description for armor from PnP:



Ghost Touch

This armor or shield seems almost translucent. Both its enhancement bonus and its armor bonus count against the attacks of incorporeal creatures. It can be picked up, moved, and worn by incorporeal creatures at any time. Incorporeal creatures gain the armor or shield’s enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects.

Strong transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, etherealness; Price +3 bonus.



So to sum that up: Incorporeal attacks (wraiths, ghosts, spectres) ignore your armor and shield bonuses to AC (they just pass through your armor). Ghost Touch shields/armor work fully against these attacks though.

If the developers didn't make 'real' Incorporeal attacks, then I guess that would explain why there isn't any Ghost Touch armor. Since I got a Ghost Touch shield I expected that it would apply, but maybe as some people stated above, that would just help me shield bash incorporeal things (yay). I haven't performed testing.

So now the question has changed somewhat:

How are wraith/spectre/ghost attacks implemented? Anecdotally, I feel they hit me way too frequently to just be doing regular attacks.

If they are implemented as per PnP Incorporeal attacks, can we get Ghost Touch armor to help with that?

Is my Ghost Touch shield only Ghost Touchy for shield bashes? Does it help my AC at all against wraiths/spectres/ghosts?

tihocan
07-12-2007, 10:24 AM
I dont care what it is coded as wraiths do not take into account your armor bonus try the tests i posted above you will see the results.
I didn't do the exact test you said (with mage armor), but I have compared using standard armor+shield vs. no armor or no armor + ghost touch shield. I posted these tests a while ago on these forums (you can probably find them with the search function). They proved that the wraith was affected by normal armor just like any other monster (and thus a ghost touch shield is useless). I also submitted a detailed bug report at that time.

rimble
07-12-2007, 11:42 AM
I didn't do the exact test you said (with mage armor), but I have compared using standard armor+shield vs. no armor or no armor + ghost touch shield. I posted these tests a while ago on these forums (you can probably find them with the search function). They proved that the wraith was affected by normal armor just like any other monster (and thus a ghost touch shield is useless). I also submitted a detailed bug report at that time.

Thanks for that. I searched before but Ghost Touch just brings up too much sale/trade Marketplace junk, being able to key off your username helped.

By the way, it's here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1051490&highlight=wraith#post1051490).

A_Sheep
07-12-2007, 11:47 AM
For those of you who don't want to go through the search rigamorole like I just did:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1051490&postcount=28

Very nice test Tihocan. Thanks!

tihocan
07-12-2007, 01:07 PM
Thanks for digging it up. I'm lazy ;)

Yvonne_Blacksword
07-12-2007, 02:05 PM
Sooo...If wraiths and specters dont bypass your armor...why am I popping mage armor potions...or wishing I had some every time I go up against them?
And when I do use them how come I am less affected by them then those who don't?

Had some +2 flametouched chain I used to wear instead of my +3 mith every time incorporeal undead were concerned.

I got hit less. And less hard...

Maybe I am just superstitious...

tihocan
07-13-2007, 10:03 AM
Sooo...If wraiths and specters dont bypass your armor...why am I popping mage armor potions...or wishing I had some every time I go up against them?
And when I do use them how come I am less affected by them then those who don't?
Could just be your mind playing tricks. Humans are good at this ;)
Though if you can provide evidence of the above, that would be interesting. Maybe somehow mage armor stacks with normal armor against incorporeal attacks :eek:

Yvonne_Blacksword
07-13-2007, 02:12 PM
I think I am superstitious...
Like wearing your lucky shirt when your team is playing..

or popping mage armor potions...just in case they work.:p

I dont think regular armor helps you at all against the ghosties...
they can go through walls...
they can go through you!

Ithrani
07-13-2007, 06:23 PM
The DEVS really screwed this up huh.

Mage armor is an invisible force that acts as Armor, this armor should not stack with armor bonuses, but supersede them if higher. Now if you are wearing full plate and someone cast mage armor on you, your AC does not increase, but you get a +4 AC bonus to incorporeal attacks since they ignore your normal armor but not mage armor. If your full plate was ghost touch then your AC is +8 against incorporeal attacks not to mention deflection which always counts, dex, dodge, and enhancement to the ghost touch armor.

MT says there are no incorporeal touch attacks, nor any touch attacks at all. So then how does one protect themselves from a Wraith, And why does mage armor show up as a buff in the top corner when cast on my WF with adamantine plate or any other characters that are wearing actual armor, because it is supposed to work against wraiths. The DEVS seem to want it to, but maybe they have not gotten around to perfecting incorporeal attacks (they won't be touch) but incorporeals still do attack and mage armor/ ghost touch should act as AC against them.

I can't believe someone said ghost touch only goes on weapons, hope they meant in DDO though shields are not weapons in my mind even if they can be used as one

MysticTheurge
07-13-2007, 07:00 PM
The DEVS really screwed this up huh.

Yes.


MT says there are no incorporeal touch attacks, nor any touch attacks at all. So then how does one protect themselves from a Wraith

With regular armor.


And why does mage armor show up as a buff in the top corner when cast on my WF with adamantine plate or any other characters that are wearing actual armor

I suppose it's there in case you lose your other armor bonus somehow (via removing it, generally). Or maybe to make people think there are incorporeal touch attacks?


The DEVS seem to want it to, but maybe they have not gotten around to perfecting incorporeal attacks (they won't be touch) but incorporeals still do attack and mage armor/ ghost touch should act as AC against them.

All incorporeal attacks are, by default, touch attacks. This is because incorporeality allows them to generally ignore armor, shield and natural armor bonuses. Force effects, of course, alter this, but the term "incorporeal touch" is still generally used to describe an incorporeal creature's attacks.

I would be, of course, thrilled if they implemented both incorporeal touch attacks (which ignore all armor/natural armor/shield bonuses save those which are force and/or ghost touch) and regular touch attacks (for things like spells, beholder eye rays and other such special abilities). But they don't seem to be in any rush to do so.

Ithrani
07-13-2007, 08:08 PM
All incorporeal attacks are, by default, touch attacks. This is because incorporeality allows them to generally ignore armor, shield and natural armor bonuses. Force effects, of course, alter this, but the term "incorporeal touch" is still generally used to describe an incorporeal creature's attacks.

LoL geez MT We have agreed and disagreed on many a topics but I never thought you could insult me... :p J/K I know of course that all incorporeal attacks are by defacto touch attacks. Having mage armor and ghost touch armor makes the incorporeal touch attack forced to beat your full armor class against incorporeals Ie. your ghost touch shield, mage armor, deflection, dex. What turbine needs to figure out is how to make those types of creatures ignore out regular armors, and not armor and protections that work against them, then it will be truely incorporeal touch attacks.

MysticTheurge
07-13-2007, 10:24 PM
What turbine needs to figure out is how to make those types of creatures ignore out regular armors, and not armor and protections that work against them, then it will be truely incorporeal touch attacks.

What Turbine needs to figure out is how to implement touch attacks, of all sorts.

It's really damaging to High-Dex characters, and makes spellcasters (enemy ones in particular) more powerful than they ought to be.

Symar-FangofLloth
07-13-2007, 11:26 PM
I've noticed incorporeals' attacks being affected by my armor's DR for a long time now. Made me realize all this.

MysticTheurge
07-13-2007, 11:29 PM
I've noticed incorporeals' attacks being affected by my armor's DR for a long time now. Made me realize all this.

I think that's the first time I noticed it too. When I was testing LotD2 on Risia I did a lot of shield-blocking (with my non-ghost touch shield) and I was getting DR (and hit a lot less).

Ithrani
07-14-2007, 02:09 PM
What Turbine needs to figure out is how to implement touch attacks, of all sorts.

It's really damaging to High-Dex characters, and makes spellcasters (enemy ones in particular) more powerful than they ought to be.

OFT I agree, hey MT you were the guy that loved my idea of a 100% PnP style turn based online digital miniature game right?

DrAwkward
07-16-2007, 03:13 PM
DDO doesn't have touch attacks, of any sort.

"Incoporeal touch" is a melee attack that has the special property of ignoring armor. It is not a touch attack, it just happens to have 'touch' in the name.
Armor bonuses to AC based on force effects are not bypassed.

DDO doesn't have touch attacks, true. I do think it has "incoporeal touch" attacks from ghosts, spectres, etc. Ghost Touch armor would make a difference, I think -- even under current DDO implemenation.

And to the OP... Don't be fooled by the ghost touch shield. It is only applied as if it were a weapon bonus for shield bash. They didn't code it to have any defensive use.

MysticTheurge
07-16-2007, 03:20 PM
I do think it has "incoporeal touch" attacks from ghosts, spectres, etc. Ghost Touch armor would make a difference, I think -- even under current DDO implemenation.

See above for other people's tests. DDO doesn't have methods to ignore part of your AC. Incorporeal creatures do not currently use any special kinds of attacks.

DrAwkward
07-16-2007, 03:30 PM
See above for other people's tests. DDO doesn't have methods to ignore part of your AC. Incorporeal creatures do not currently use any special kinds of attacks.

So is the consensus that the Devs "faked it" by giving them insane to-hit bonuses?

MysticTheurge
07-16-2007, 03:31 PM
So is the consensus that the Devs "faked it" by giving them insane to-hit bonuses?

That's my theory. It may also be the general consensus.

rimble
07-17-2007, 10:08 AM
So is the consensus that the Devs "faked it" by giving them insane to-hit bonuses?

That's what I'm taking away from this, and from some recent playing in the Necropolis. Just another nudge towards the HP/DR characters instead of AC.