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crschoen
07-10-2007, 10:14 AM
Hello,

Sorry if this concern has been previously posted (I haven't been keeping up with the posts lately), but for what it's worth, I thought I would make a suggestion to fix some of the game mechanics with regards to melee fighting and moving mobs. I think these types of game mechanics are what makes one game stand out from another. And so far it has always been a big advantage of DDO. But lately it has been more and more frustrating, I think since some of the AI changes to the mobs. The particular problem is with the inability to attack moving mobs. There are 2 common scenarios (virtually every fight encounter) where this occurs:

(1) When a mob gets aggro on a target in the back line, most often a ranger, or a caster. Most rangers draw first blood and hit a mob before the fighters get within combat range The mob will run past the front line fighters. It's very difficult to get a registered hit on a mob moving past you like this. They seem to be almost immune to your weapon swings. The intimidate action doesn't seem to work very effectively here either. I think it worked better before when it took longer to invoke - at least it seemed to have a wider range of effect. I think every fighter has experience running after a moving mob that is chasing a ranger (who is backpedalling/kiting), and taking many swings at the mobs back without getting any dice rolls.

(2) The new AI causes a lot of mobs to "flee" away from you. The game mechanic here is seriously broken, as you don't seem to be able to register any attacks on a mob running from you. In reality you should get a HIGHER attack bonus because you're swinging at his unprotected back.


I think what makes some of this so frustrating is that it doesn't work in vice versa. When you are running from a mob, they have no problem at all registering hits on you, even when not within their attack radius.

Riddikulus
07-10-2007, 10:28 AM
Yeah I've noticed this lately too. It seems they reduced the melee "reach" sometime recently so that a melee attack only registers on a mob that is right next to you.

Maybe this was done on purpose to equalize melee with ranged... I've been missing moving mobs ranged for a long time. :p

FlyinS
07-10-2007, 10:53 AM
(2) The new AI causes a lot of mobs to "flee" away from you. The game mechanic here is seriously broken, as you don't seem to be able to register any attacks on a mob running from you. In reality you should get a HIGHER attack bonus because you're swinging at his unprotected back.


I have found this AI change to be quite annoying. I understand and agree that a mob that is ranged focused will try to get away from us, but not to the point of running across the entire world rather than just pulling out a sword.

Combine that with the idea that you don't seem to get an attack roll on them very often when you're chasing them it's just plain annoying.

What I would like to see is more mobs run, but run to go get friends or something. Seems like a more likely scenario than just running aimlessly and endlessly.

akla_thornfist
07-10-2007, 11:16 AM
melee attack range has been reduced by at least 50%, ive noticed that you need to be standing inches from your target before an attack lands, forget about trying to hit a running mob its just plain stupid. what drives me nuts the most is rangers and casters in my party running mobs around and all the fighters chasing them around, i gave up chasing now they either kill the mob or the mob kills them.

DSL
07-10-2007, 11:19 AM
You can get your hits on them, but you have to "lead" your swings a little by running at least partially alongside them rather than right behind them. WHat seems to happen is that the game registers your position when you start your swing, but checks the enemy position when you complete your swing, by which time a fleeing MOB is out of melee range unless you were closer to the MOB's center along the movement vector.

You should get bonuses to hit based on the MOB moving and you facing it's back, but this is offset by your taking a -4 penalty to hit because you're moving (unless you have Spring Attack).

It is certainly frustrating to have to chase these things halfway accross the map, but often they do move into areas that cause you to draw more aggro, and in any case, I've seen many occasions where PC rangers/casters ended up doing more or less the same thing (I've even done it while soloing with melee characters to try to isolate enemies), so it's not that strange a behaviour.

What is most annoying is that nearly everything you face seems to have the equivalent of barbarian fast movement or 15% striding.

Riddikulus
07-10-2007, 11:25 AM
You can get your hits on them, but you have to "lead" your swings a little by running at least partially alongside them rather than right behind them. WHat seems to happen is that the game registers your position when you start your swing, but checks the enemy position when you complete your swing, by which time a fleeing MOB is out of melee range unless you were closer to the MOB's center along the movement vector.
It's worse than this tho... I can be right on the mobs back and it won't do a roll. If I'm swinging a 3' sword, and have an arm reach of about 3' the sword should still be able to connect with a mob up to 6' away...but it just doesn't. Actually at the distance the game requires you to be at to actually connect is not realistic in terms of actually being able to swing a weapon like that and connect unless you have really short stumpy arms.

Roguewiz
07-10-2007, 11:33 AM
It's worse than this tho... I can be right on the mobs back and it won't do a roll. If I'm swinging a 3' sword, and have an arm reach of about 3' the sword should still be able to connect with a mob up to 6' away...but it just doesn't. Actually at the distance the game requires you to be at to actually connect is not realistic in terms of actually being able to swing a weapon like that and connect unless you have really short stumpy arms.

**Just for the sake of arguement**

Negative. Base reach weapons is 5ft. This can only be modified by:
A. Being of Large or greater Size (not possible in DDO)
B. Having a reach weapon (do not exist in DDO)

tihocan
07-10-2007, 11:33 AM
And, yes, it's been a regular complaint on these forums. I sure hope they'll try to do something to fix it, as it's quite annoying.

Riddikulus
07-10-2007, 11:38 AM
**Just for the sake of arguement**

Negative. Base reach weapons is 5ft. This can only be modified by:
A. Being of Large or greater Size (not possible in DDO)
B. Having a reach weapon (do not exist in DDO)

5' is fine. I don't think it's currently 5' in the game though.

wraith87
07-10-2007, 12:13 PM
5' is fine. I don't think it's currently 5' in the game though.

I would almost be willing to bet it is. The distances in the game seem fairly short for what they happen to be.

Plus, if you are really running after someone...do you have the dexterity to be swinging that sword with full power and still keep up? I'm not sure, but I really don't think it would be possible to run behind a person and still be attacking them while keeping up. Just my opinion I guess.

Tavok
07-10-2007, 12:13 PM
This is what I have noticed with moving mobs, hope this diagram helps, and I do agree, this should be changed.

Swing Range: ||
.....
Mob Virtual Area: ..x..
''''''''' . . .
Mob Virtual Area (while moving): ..x..
' '
'x' is the mob, and you have to get your swing range within one of the dots to get a registered dice roll. And obviously on the front and back of MOVING mobs, theres less dots to hit, so unless you are on the specific area that you need to hit them (mainly on the side of the mob) then you don't get a registered hit. I think to fix this, the Mob Virtual Area while moving needs to be changed to the one that the mob has while STANDING still.

Few questions:

Noticed this in PvP also, does the MVAwa apply to PC's also? If not, it should apply to PC's since it applies to mobs.

EDIT: ****, the diagrams didn't turn out right lol. Will fix them after a food run :D

JosephKell
07-10-2007, 12:25 PM
Perhaps the Developers want to encourage people to use Hamstring and similar effects?

Olaff
07-10-2007, 12:41 PM
I would almost be willing to bet it is. The distances in the game seem fairly short for what they happen to be.

Plus, if you are really running after someone...do you have the dexterity to be swinging that sword with full power and still keep up? I'm not sure, but I really don't think it would be possible to run behind a person and still be attacking them while keeping up. Just my opinion I guess.

I can be running faster than a fleeing mob (Exp. Retreat active) and swinging a greataxe and I still don't even get an attack roll.

I can be running so much faster that I keep bumping into the mob and triggering the anti-collision code (which bumps you to one side or the other) and I still don't get an attack roll.

I even have Spring Attack so that I'm not losing -4 attack, and I still don't get an attack roll.

The mechanics are borked.

Harbinder
07-10-2007, 01:21 PM
I don't get it.

I mean, I don't have this problem/issue on my fighter, or my fleric for that matter. They swing and get dice rolls and hits (and misses) on running mobs all the time.

Riddikulus
07-10-2007, 01:58 PM
I would almost be willing to bet it is. The distances in the game seem fairly short for what they happen to be.
It is probably 5' center to center. If you have a "large" character (human/WF) that 5' would appear to be right on top of each other. Perhaps a "small" character (halfling) has less trouble with missing because the relative distance between you and the mob looks bigger.


Plus, if you are really running after someone...do you have the dexterity to be swinging that sword with full power and still keep up? I'm not sure, but I really don't think it would be possible to run behind a person and still be attacking them while keeping up. Just my opinion I guess.
Well in theory that is taken into account with the reduced to hit you get when moving if you don't have spring attack.

Darkdominion
07-10-2007, 04:06 PM
The idea of them running away endlessly is entirely reasonable. You're a 70 pound kobold, with nothing but a crappy ranged weapon on your person. There is a 6'4 Barbarian with giagantic muscled arms wielding a sword twice as long as you are. He already killed all your friends, including your shamans. Do you stand and fight this gigantic killing machine? Or do you run, run and keep on running? Sure, its annoying as hell, but its entirely realistic.

On the note of attacking moving monsters, it would help alot if they synchronized the animation with the actual attack for the first swing of a 1 handed weapon while moving. This is probably a source of a lot of peoples problems, although it does seem that the attack radius has been decreased. As for the movement speed, you'd have to look them up for each creature to see if they are correct.

captain1
07-11-2007, 05:41 AM
I have spring attack also and can run circles around mobs as they run....I only get attack rolls when Im in front of them or to the side and slightly ahead.

anyone notice that when u successfully hypno wolves of any kind they take off running endlessly with pink dots on their heads. they come back to get u when the dots go away.......no matter where u are.....thats some tracking skill they have.

Kaldaka
07-11-2007, 06:38 AM
Guys,
Come on . . . its not that hard to figure out. I figured it out within the first week of this change. You need to STOP chasing the mob, then they will stop and turn around. Once they go to attack/cast, you can then run at them and smack them good.
The only issue is the caster/ranged guys attacking first. That is a problem with party communication. You need to let these guys know that they need to let the tanks get the aggro BEFORE they cast/shoot. If they can't take the hint, don't party with them again.
Its that simple.

Missing_Minds
07-11-2007, 07:45 AM
Plus, if you are really running after someone...do you have the dexterity to be swinging that sword with full power and still keep up? I'm not sure, but I really don't think it would be possible to run behind a person and still be attacking them while keeping up. Just my opinion I guess.

This is a game that has magic, so real life physics HA. so the answer is YES you can.

Now in real life... I think it would be more weapon dependent. I can see piercing being able to still be done without much issue, but larger two handed stuff.. yeah, that would have to take a hit.

The_Silver_Griffon
07-11-2007, 08:15 AM
According to the developers way back (the Dev Diaries from the Beta boards), this game actually registers collisions between your weapon's model and the enemy's model. This means that if your sword touches the mob, you get to roll to hit. There is no radius or "range" of your melee weapons other than the actual size of the rendered model.

However, since the very nature of the internet keeps our clients and the servers from ever being perfectly in synch much of this elegant system is lost on us, visually speaking. In an instance with lots of mobs and other players nearby the server and client are indeed registering these collisions, but we can't see them because the models being registered on our client are often out of synch with their "real" positions on the server.

As far as mobs running away, if you are referring to when the yellow icon pops over their head and they run back to where they started from, then this stems from an anti-exploit mechanic. While that icon is up, the mobs are indestructible and will regenerate to full health. This is because they are actually respawning. The fact that we can see them run back at all is just because it looks better than having the mob just disappear and reappear back "home". The devs have this turned on in certain areas where they feel that the terrain would make it too easy to range mobs to death with no risk and is considered an exploit. This information is in the release notes for one of the previous updates.

Unfortunately, the mobs are now running away and hitting the end of their leash and popping the icon. So they are triggering the anti-exploit mechanic themselves. I think that in some cases this may actually be related to the occaional bug where a mob has his back to the party and vigorously attacking while apparently targetting nothing. I think some of those "running" mobs actually believe they are charging towards somebody instead.

If that's not what you are referring to, then I have not experienced this. I have had mobs that were so fast I couldn't swing and hit them while pursuing, but a speed boost or expeditious retreat usually lets me catch them.

kailus
07-11-2007, 08:28 AM
While my Barb can relate very well to the issues you are bringing up here I also want to point out that the opposite issue exists with casters.

My Wizard draws agro before the door is ever opened in most cases and almost immediately has to run. The problem is that when running with my back to the mob, I have to clear X amount of distance between me and the mob or when I turn to flip a fireball the mob is apparently "too close" and takes zero damage on a fireball.

So, essentially, if a mob is toe 2 toe w/me while I'm casting an AOE fireball, they take no damage. If I can keep one step between us, they do.

This is a HUGE problem for casters that draw agro just by drinking tea in the back row. Even with Subtle Spellcasting 3, I don't even have to cast to draw agro.

Tanka
07-11-2007, 08:39 AM
Guys,
Come on . . . its not that hard to figure out. I figured it out within the first week of this change. You need to STOP chasing the mob, then they will stop and turn around. Once they go to attack/cast, you can then run at them and smack them good.
The only issue is the caster/ranged guys attacking first. That is a problem with party communication. You need to let these guys know that they need to let the tanks get the aggro BEFORE they cast/shoot. If they can't take the hint, don't party with them again.
Its that simple.
You hit the nail on the head. If a mob starts running, STOP. It will run a short distance, turn, and begin its attack again. Then run it down, get on the other side of it, and begin your attack again.

The game changes, so you must change with it.

gelgoog
07-11-2007, 08:59 AM
this issue came about and a dev posted ...don't remember where...but said that they are moving out of the way just a split second before your swing, therefor you miss. pretty lame cause before they updated the running mobs it felt fine.

now it's feeling glitchy...almost like your jumpin on the back of a enemy but can't hit em.

hmmm play better, use tactics, change with the game, well that doesn't suit me as an answer for this problem. and they don't plan on changing it back from what i remember of that post.

so it just bugs me now when i try to trip a running enemy. cause before it was fine. now swing at an enemy running away from you and .....no register a miss or hit....just a swoosh, swoosh, swoosh, swoosh.

now what worries me is even though the devs said this is intended, how come some people don't see this. i suspect its a bug even though dev said otherwise. cause if person a can't hit the running mob from behind then person b shouldn't either.

Tanka
07-11-2007, 09:09 AM
It's the same for every person I've grouped with. If a mob is running, they chase, are on its rear-end, and can't hit. If they're next to it or in front, swinging, hits register.

So to make it die faster, either get a Sprint-Boosted Barb/Ranger to chase it down, or stop chasing it for a few moments to let it stop.

Haste and 30% Striders will not pass a running mob. Haste + 30% Striding + Sprint Boost will.

Harbinder
07-11-2007, 10:19 AM
It's the same for every person I've grouped with. If a mob is running, they chase, are on its rear-end, and can't hit. If they're next to it or in front, swinging, hits register
So the two fighters I saw last night chasing undead in von5 swinging disruption weapons at them from behind while they were running away weren't actually getting rolls or hitting. Strange, I must have hallucinated all the disruption kills... my mistake.

Oh, but when my fleric ran after some dwarves in POP and hit them from behind as they were running away didn't actaully get dice rolls and hits, I must have imagined all those red numbers I was seeing, oops.

Or when my wizard got aggro and ran away on purpose in BAM to see if anyone else had this problem I saw the fighters were swinging and getting enough damage on the running mobs enough to take aggro off me. I must have imagined I even had aggro at all. Or dreamed it, thats right I was dreaming.

Tanka
07-11-2007, 10:27 AM
It's pretty rare to get the collision detection to do that unless you are bumping into their backsides, thusly getting shunted off to the side thanks to the lovely collision detection.

So, no, you weren't imagining things, but on their screen they were probably either next to the creatures or getting shoved to the side randomly when they caught up.

Strakeln
07-11-2007, 10:57 AM
You can get your hits on them, but you have to "lead" your swings a little by running at least partially alongside them rather than right behind them. WHat seems to happen is that the game registers your position when you start your swing, but checks the enemy position when you complete your swing, by which time a fleeing MOB is out of melee range unless you were closer to the MOB's center along the movement vector.This is the real problem, and how to get around it until they (hopefully) fix it.

Riddikulus
07-11-2007, 10:59 AM
So the two fighters I saw last night chasing undead in von5 swinging disruption weapons at them from behind while they were running away weren't actually getting rolls or hitting. Strange, I must have hallucinated all the disruption kills... my mistake.

Oh, but when my fleric ran after some dwarves in POP and hit them from behind as they were running away didn't actaully get dice rolls and hits, I must have imagined all those red numbers I was seeing, oops.

Or when my wizard got aggro and ran away on purpose in BAM to see if anyone else had this problem I saw the fighters were swinging and getting enough damage on the running mobs enough to take aggro off me. I must have imagined I even had aggro at all. Or dreamed it, thats right I was dreaming.
OK, we get that you are not having the problem, you don't have to belabor the point or be rude about it.

That doesn't mean the rest of us are not.

Harbinder
07-11-2007, 11:21 AM
Actually, I realize it's possible they weren't running directly behind them but probabley more like almost next to them, so I retract and reverse myself on this. :o

gserlenga
07-16-2007, 01:49 AM
This would be a much welcomed fix, when your character turns his/her back to run from a mob, you can and often are hit. The mobs may even be getting a bonus to hit and damage from rear attacks, I don't know but it seems like it. I can't tell you how many times I've died this way. There is no logical reason why players should not be getting the same chance to attack and damage mobs fleeing from them. This should be the case even when the mob is not technically "fleeing" but rather is repositioning itself, as do casters and archers constantly. I can accept the -4 to attack rolls for attacking while moving, but the issue is that no attack roll is made at all, as we all know. Also I have experienced what seemed to be some extra range or reach of monsters meleeing me when I am running away, even when I seem to be beyond their melee range.

I have no problem with caster and archer type enemies moving away to range us when we engage them in melee, but to do so they should have to pay the same price as we do. As the game mechanics stand at the moment they do not. This would be a much welcomed and appreciated AI fix in the near future which I'm sure would make legions DDO players very happy ;)

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~Elu Greymantle, 32pt. elf male fighter/wizard battlemage
~Jarni Haakonssen, 32pt. human male fighter tactics build
~Feyfox, 32pt. halfling male rogue, skills-umd-feint master

EightyFour
07-16-2007, 02:26 AM
Yep, some of the bugs I have noticed are that you don't get attack roll's when you are behind a mob while they are running away from you.

Also if a caster is to close to a mob, like there is no distance between them and the mob, there spell's well not hit.

And also I noticed spiders, while there jumping are immune to everything. I can hit them with a scorching ray and the animation shows a hit going off on the spider, however the spider takes no damage.

These problems I noticed developed when the DEV's decided to change the attack window and close it off a bit and when they threw in the new AI and mob's started to run it started to make mob's immune to damage from behind.

The thing that I don't like is that mob's can not only hit you from behind but it seems that they have some extra reach.

I don't want to hear that this is some kind of lag, because this didn't happen before, so why does it happen now?

jaitee
07-16-2007, 03:37 AM
Yep, some of the bugs I have noticed are that you don't get attack roll's when you are behind a mob while they are running away from you.

Also if a caster is to close to a mob, like there is no distance between them and the mob, there spell's well not hit.

And also I noticed spiders, while there jumping are immune to everything. I can hit them with a scorching ray and the animation shows a hit going off on the spider, however the spider takes no damage.

These problems I noticed developed when the DEV's decided to change the attack window and close it off a bit and when they threw in the new AI and mob's started to run it started to make mob's immune to damage from behind.

The thing that I don't like is that mob's can not only hit you from behind but it seems that they have some extra reach.

I don't want to hear that this is some kind of lag, because this didn't happen before, so why does it happen now?

/signed

all these are either bugs or was intended, also with the mobs being able to hit u with spells not facing you, ive even seen cone of cold hit me while i was behind a ogre magi, from what i understand cone of cold is directed in front of you, but this ogre still hit me, when i was behind him