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dameron
07-08-2007, 10:43 PM
Hey.

I've tried to be polite. It's been a year and a half.

I really sometimes like this game.

But when I sit across from an enemy caster, pumping maximized, superior lore, superior potency, quickened scorching rays, each casting successfully doing at least 3x60 and the caster still gets every spell off, meanwhile chain healing himself.

That's idiotic.

Fix.

Ithrani
07-08-2007, 11:16 PM
I have crit'ed enemy cleric's for over 100 damage while they are casting heal and they still get it off.

Gimpster
07-09-2007, 02:54 AM
That's idiotic.
Fix.
There's nothing wrong with it.

Be happy they're only using Quicken spell, instead of any of the truely dangerous metamagics they might apply so that their spells don't just bounce harmlessly off the resist 30 everyone wears.

tekn0mage
07-09-2007, 06:21 AM
So Gimp, by your theory they are using Quicken Spell?

Even the lowest level Kobold in the lowest level mission comes stock-equipped with Quicken Spell? Are you sure about that? Source?

Sounds to me like its just some cheeseball blanket ability that every monster in the game has. And yes, I agree, it's GOTTA go.

We should just file bug reports on it repeatedly. Tired of seeing this. While my cleric with a concentration of 36 is lucky to get anything to cast while being attacked.

It's bad enough that spells don't cast due to "You must be facing enemy" or the dreaded "mouse click while moving causes execute" bug. Can't wait for Mod 4.2 AI "improvements" that cause the monsters to circle us in an obviously broken fashion, to cause even more spell failures than we currently get. But a 328 point Harm spell can't stop a trash mob from casting? Hrmph.

binnsr
07-09-2007, 07:10 AM
There's a dev post somewhere around here stating that all mob casters use the sorcerer spell timers.

edit: found the quote

Monster spellcasters use the exact same timers that you have. The majority of offensive monsters use the Sorcerer spell list, complete with Sorcerer cooldowns. (Some use the Cleric spell list, while other have a strange mix of Arcane and Divine spells. Very few use the Bard list, for example, but even those exist. [Hazadill!])

The ability to use Metamagic feats will remain a carefully considered option when statting monsters, and is preferable in my opinion than watching their caster levels and Save DC's spiral out of control as they attempt to provide a challenge in future modules. Spell Resistance, Greater Dispel Magic, and the various Globes of Invulnerability will be more valuable in such a world, and as such is one I'd like to continue moving the monsters toward.

Sue_Dark
07-09-2007, 07:12 AM
I look at it like this... They have a CON score that is about 10x what my sorc has. Thus when I drop a hooked up burning blood on them to stop the casting, it just gets them ****ed at me and makes them come at me harder.

With concentration based on constitution and the mobs apparent astronomical constiution scores, their concentration must be insane.

Perhaps, one day, when turbine realizes that the mob con scores are out of whack. These things will work.

Heck... have a tank smack around an enemy caster, they STILL dont have any trouble getting spells off.

Mizyrlou
07-09-2007, 08:48 AM
If a minotaur's sneeze is enough to blow my caster's concentration, I really do want to see them fail some concentration rolls too.

Cheg
07-09-2007, 08:49 AM
I look at it like this... They have a CON score that is about 10x what my sorc has. Thus when I drop a hooked up burning blood on them to stop the casting, it just gets them ****ed at me and makes them come at me harder.

With concentration based on constitution and the mobs apparent astronomical constiution scores, their concentration must be insane.

Perhaps, one day, when turbine realizes that the mob con scores are out of whack. These things will work.

Heck... have a tank smack around an enemy caster, they STILL dont have any trouble getting spells off.


I didnt know concentration was based on Constitution, but if it is, i do believe you just hit the nail on the head.

dameron
07-09-2007, 11:37 AM
I didnt know concentration was based on Constitution, but if it is, i do believe you just hit the nail on the head.

No, it's not their CON score.

I routinely hit mobs for hundreds of points of damage, like just yesterday I saw a caster stand in the middle of a maximized, superior potency IV, Elemental Manipulation IV Wall of Fire, take well over 120hp a tick and still be able to heal himself and have the spare moment to drop other spells too.

It's not that they're rolling 125+ on their Concentration rolls, it's that they don't have to make the roll at all.

Sue_Dark
07-09-2007, 12:07 PM
No, it's not their CON score.

I routinely hit mobs for hundreds of points of damage, like just yesterday I saw a caster stand in the middle of a maximized, superior potency IV, Elemental Manipulation IV Wall of Fire, take well over 120hp a tick and still be able to heal himself and have the spare moment to drop other spells too.

It's not that they're rolling 125+ on their Concentration rolls, it's that they don't have to make the roll at all.

While i do agree that they seem to not be making a roll at all, I think we can all also agree that their super-inflated HD (assumably CON score as well) would have a huge impact on this non-existant roll. If they *were* rolling concentration checks modified by the CON modifier alone we could expect to see a few missed spells. However, I suspect that most if not all enemy casters have had their "skill point pools" dumped into concentration as well ending up with a L15+ monster having at least +19 from that alone. Who's to say they dont have a nice +10-13 item on top of that and then think about their CON score. We're talking somewhere in the 40-50 range easily.

Edit- I've been hit for 12 points and failed concentration and I've been hit for 50-60 and passed. One day I'll actually understand how DDO's concentration ACTUALLY works! Then this whole thread might make alot more sense, in the sense of why they dont fail.

So even IF they made a roll, odds are it would be successful. Then again, since I have no concrete evidence of this, it is all just speculation. I have come to the conclusion that any non-red/purple that I want to DoT, need to be made "silent" first (ala Flesh to Stone). In this manner I can torture them to my heart's content and stand very little risk. <note- if you are worried about the FtS breaking, curse them too>

Another thing I absolutely love to do is feeblemind and curse on enemy arcanes. A wiz with no INT is just a hoot! :D

dameron
07-09-2007, 12:37 PM
While i do agree that they seem to not be making a roll at all, I think we can all also agree that their super-inflated HD (assumably CON score as well) would have a huge impact on this non-existant roll. If they *were* rolling concentration checks modified by the CON modifier alone we could expect to see a few missed spells. However, I suspect that most if not all enemy casters have had their "skill point pools" dumped into concentration as well ending up with a L15+ monster having at least +19 from that alone. Who's to say they dont have a nice +10-13 item on top of that and then think about their CON score. We're talking somewhere in the 40-50 range easily.

Edit- I've been hit for 12 points and failed concentration and I've been hit for 50-60 and passed. One day I'll actually understand how DDO's concentration ACTUALLY works! Then this whole thread might make alot more sense, in the sense of why they dont fail.

So even IF they made a roll, odds are it would be successful. :D

Even if they had 30 levels and 60 CON and a +13 Concentration item, and Skill Focus: Concentration the most their Concentration skill could be is 75:

34 (Level 30 +4) from skill pointss
25 from CON
13 from item
3 from skill focus
---
75

Doing, say 100 hp to them would cause a concentration check of:

10 + damage dealt + spell level attempted to cast.

So for a mob to heal themselves while taking 100 hp of damage they'd have a Concentration roll of:

10+100+6 - 116

Even with +75 Concentratoin there is -zero- chance for the mob to successfully make that concentration roll vs DC116.

And, since the CR of casters mobs should equal their level, for 1HD humanoid base type casters, those CR17 and CR18 casters should be level 17 or 18 and have, at most 40 or 50 concentration with their cartoony 40 CONs.

Ithrani
07-09-2007, 12:48 PM
The Dwaven casters in PoP on elite do not have that high a Con score (higher then most though they are dwarves). I use wounding and puncturing TWF combo and an enemy wizard or cleric goes down with in one-two full attack turns from the con damage I do. Thats 1 point for every hit with my short sword and 1d6 for my rapiers crit which will land at least once per full attack. Now a troll cleric is another story, thats a lot of con to beat past. But my point is an Elite Dwaven casters con in a 16 level quest is still only like a 12-15. A troll's is probably around a 25, thats not that impressive considering what the HP jump is like from normal to elite.

Ithrani
07-09-2007, 12:50 PM
And, since the CR of casters mobs should equal their level, for 1HD humanoid base type casters, those CR17 and CR18 casters should be level 17 or 18 and have, at most 40 or 50 concentration with their cartoony 40 CONs.

No only if they are of the basic races does their HD/Level/CR all match. A troll shaman is a much higher CR then its HD/Level. But I see what you mean and yes you are right, their concentration checks cannot be that high and even if they were, they should still fail when my khopesh comes down on them for over 100 damage.

dameron
07-09-2007, 12:56 PM
No only if they are of the basic races does their HD/Level/CR all match. A troll shaman is a much higher CR then its HD/Level. But I see what you mean and yes you are right, their concentration checks cannot be that high and even if they were, they should still fail when my khopesh comes down on them for over 100 damage.

That's why I said 1HD/humanoid. Bigger base mobs (i.e. trolls) should have fewer character levels, but things like dwarves, hobgoblins, orcs, should pretty much be CR=level.

tekn0mage
07-09-2007, 01:19 PM
You can calculate a mob's Constitution by hitting it with a PK or Finger of Death as both are Fortitude checks.

Their fortitude save is based on their CON score.

Since a maxed out player has a DC check of around 30, and you are able to destruct/fod/pk them half the time, their Fortitude save is around 15-20. There's going to be a base bonus on the mob's level, plus appropriate bonus applied for every 2 points of CON above 10.

CR15 mob (lets just assume that this mob means Level 15) ... fortitude of 15 base, +5 for a CON of 20 gives them a Fort save of 20.

A Sorceror/Wiz/Cleric casting instakill spells with a DC of 30 would hit them approximately 50% of the time.

Again, the concentration issue has NOTHING to do with inflated HD, or their base CON because you can already see their CON is at a normal level by the basis of the Fort save.

Klattuu
07-09-2007, 03:55 PM
Hey.

I've tried to be polite. It's been a year and a half.

I really sometimes like this game.

But when I sit across from an enemy caster, pumping maximized, superior lore, superior potency, quickened scorching rays, each casting successfully doing at least 3x60 and the caster still gets every spell off, meanwhile chain healing himself.

That's idiotic.

Fix.

The issue it seems is once a mob makes a decision to cast a spell, the spell always goes off as there does not seem to be any mechanism to disrupt it, including death.

The question is, is this a planned or unplanned event? Is unstoppable mob casting a mob cheat put in on purpose to deal with a lack-luster AI or is it an unintentional product of how mob casters work?

Klattuu
07-09-2007, 03:57 PM
You can calculate a mob's Constitution by hitting it with a PK or Finger of Death as both are Fortitude checks.

Cloud Kill is a much better counter of mob CON (it is just difficult to find mobs that will stand in it anymore but there are situations where it still works).

Ithrani
07-09-2007, 05:28 PM
That's why I said 1HD/humanoid. Bigger base mobs (i.e. trolls) should have fewer character levels, but things like dwarves, hobgoblins, orcs, should pretty much be CR=level.

missed that somehow.

Mindspat
07-09-2007, 05:33 PM
My favorite is having them paralyzed and in a wall of fire and STILL they continue to spam themselves with heal!! :mad:

I've seen many NPC casters cast extremely faster then my Sorc could ever dream about. That's about when we all start making rude comment about the developers of the game... :(

tekn0mage
07-09-2007, 05:38 PM
Cloud Kill is a much better counter of mob CON (it is just difficult to find mobs that will stand in it anymore but there are situations where it still works).

I guess that's true since you never see the enemy mob's roll vs. death.

Blazer
07-09-2007, 05:42 PM
I used to complain about this alot as well. However, then I started wondering: if these casters had to make concentration checks, would they even get a spell off ever?

Enemy spellcasters are the first mobs all smart player groups target anyway. With melee dishing out hundreds of points of damage in such a short time, let alone the damage casters can pump out, forcing the enemy spellcasters to make concentration checks is a bit silly. They would get 1 spell off at most, if ever. It would make their placement in the game pointless, to say the least, especially in the case of the red-named casters.

Take that end boss in Offering of Blood. On normal he can be tough for some groups; on elite he can be a nightmare. So after we FoD/PK/Slay/Destruct the drow scorps to his right and left, he's now got (at most) 6 PCs coming for him and him alone. Do you honestly think it would be fair to make him roll concentration checks when he's getting assaulted with Smite Evil, raging barbs, sneak attack damage, Harms, Scorching Rays, etc etc etc?

Unless fundamental and sweeping changes are made to the core game mechanics, enemy casters with unlimited concentration scores is just the way it has to be.

Mindspat
07-09-2007, 05:49 PM
A Sorceror/Wiz/Cleric casting instakill spells with a DC of 30 would hit them approximately 50% of the time.


Your'e kiding, right? Using Abjuration bonuses I've seen 10-15 failures on a single mob that's otherwise figerurable. I've toggled PK and Finger back and forth upwards of 20 times, just to see what was happening, with faliures!

Here's the interesting thing, I've noticed that if I deselect then reseclt the same target that was passing the 10+ Fingers or PK's that they would normally fail the subsequent roll. Ok, maybe I should say "better then 50% failure" rather then "normally fail".

There's another underlying issue here and I suspect it's much deeper then base stats on a mob.

I never target the same spell at something that's made a saving throw 3 times in a row without reselecting it. Try it and let everyone know if you share the same results. :)

p.s. this does not count the number of castings that fire off to no effect of any kind other then a spell cost.

boldarblood
07-09-2007, 07:11 PM
I dont see it as a huge deal. Game is easy anyway, why make it that much easier. Some will argue its the principal of it, but I could care less. I do not see it as game breaking.

Gimpster
07-09-2007, 10:32 PM
Your'e kiding, right? Using Abjuration bonuses I've seen 10-15 failures on a single mob that's otherwise figerurable.
What does that sentence mean?

It seems to imply you were using Abjuration focus bonuses to cast Finger of Death, which is not an abjuration spell.

JosephKell
07-10-2007, 12:42 PM
The only viable way to stop a spellcaster from spellcasting is to...
-Kill it.
-Trip it.
-Stun it.
-Paralyze it.
-Charm/suggest/dominate it.

I think this is why people shouldn't just instantly vendor the +4/6/8/10 Vertigo weapons they pull.

Or they can just send them to me. ;)

Mad_Bombardier
07-10-2007, 01:23 PM
The only viable way to stop a spellcaster from spellcasting is to...
-Kill it.
-Trip it.
-Stun it.
-Paralyze it.
-Charm/suggest/dominate it.But, in each and every one of those cases, the caster WILL complete his last spell. But, yes, those stop further spell casting.

Gimpster
07-10-2007, 01:31 PM
But, in each and every one of those cases, the caster WILL complete his last spell.
No. Killing the monster while it is casting will prevent the last spell from going off.

In addition, you can interrupt any kind of monster action by damaging it for around 20-25% of his total hp with one shot. That goes for spells, attacks, and whatever.

Mad_Bombardier
07-10-2007, 01:41 PM
No. Killing the monster while it is casting will prevent the last spell from going off.Sorry Gimpster, you're just wrong on that one (or know more and are not explaining everything). More times than I can count, I have been hit with Fire Reaver Flamestrikes after they are killed. Same goes for Curse or Hold Person from Kobold Shaman. Same goes for all the posts and screenshots of Velah killing people after she is killed. It *seems* to be a matter of monster mechanics. Attacks are calculate/processed simultaneously, but the player's attack is reported first, and does not negate/stop the successful monster attack.

In addition, you can interrupt any kind of monster action by damaging it for around 20-25% of his total hp with one shot. That goes for spells, attacks, and whatever.The ONLY thing I've ever seen this work for or be recognized by the Devs is Tharaak Hound "doggy dance of death."

tekn0mage
07-10-2007, 03:20 PM
No. Killing the monster while it is casting will prevent the last spell from going off.

In addition, you can interrupt any kind of monster action by damaging it for around 20-25% of his total hp with one shot. That goes for spells, attacks, and whatever.

Either you're right and the whole world is wrong... or you missed it, I'm afraid.

JD2134
07-10-2007, 03:27 PM
There something you have failed to notice

There are two rule books in this game . One for the player, and a smaller one for the Mobs.

Seconds All mobs dont know how to read and thus dont have to follow the rule book anyways

Lorein_Azura_Childs
07-10-2007, 03:29 PM
Its actually a cave with pictographs :).

But ya a concentration check would be welcome.

Gimpster
07-10-2007, 03:33 PM
Sorry Gimpster, you're just wrong on that one (or not explaining everything).
Wrong. It's you who is wrong.


The ONLY thing I've ever seen this work for or be recognized by the Devs is Tharaak Hound "doggy dance of death."
Well yes, that's all you've seen. But that's not all that happens, and indeed the developers have confirmed this on the forum, if you'd been paying attention.

Gimpster
07-10-2007, 03:35 PM
Either you're right and the whole world is wrong... or you missed it, I'm afraid.
That is impossible. There's nothing to "miss".

1. I walk up to a Arzag-kor Loremaster.
2. He starts casting a spell.
3. I hit him for 130 points of damage.
4. He goes into a pain animation and the spell doesn't happen.

If I consistently hit him for 100+ damage, he never gets a spell off. Low-damaging characters might never be able to see this effect.

Tavok
07-10-2007, 03:42 PM
I don't mind them getting off spells when you normally wouldn't be able to get a spell off. Because you normally don't have 6 completely specced out super-tanks bashing you every .001 seconds. But I would like to give them a dice roll at least for a concentration check. Probably something like a d100+75 or something depending on the mob, because I think if you hit them hard enough, they will fail the spell (SoS crit for example, or Firewall/SR crit, what have you).

Eladrin
07-10-2007, 03:51 PM
In addition, you can interrupt any kind of monster action by damaging it for around 20-25% of his total hp with one shot. That goes for spells, attacks, and whatever.
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").

Ziggy
07-10-2007, 03:56 PM
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").
So they may not have a concentration check, but we can still get them to stop if we hit them hard enough.

Cinwulf
07-10-2007, 03:59 PM
So they may not have a concentration check, but we can still get them to stop if we hit them hard enough.


Which is a poor substitute for a concentration check imo. I think they should have concentration checks same as PC's do.

Ziggy
07-10-2007, 03:59 PM
Which is a poor substitute for a concentration check imo. I think they should have concentration checks same as PC's do.
Oh i agree. But at least there is something as opposed to the nothing we all thought was happening.

Gol
07-10-2007, 04:06 PM
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").
So, only weak mobs on Normal difficulties can be interrupted. Nothing else can be hit hard enough to take a noticeable percentage off. Fun.

Spookydodger
07-10-2007, 04:06 PM
I guess that's true since you never see the enemy mob's roll vs. death.

Well, you are both right. Cloudkill and wounding weapons are the best way to see an opponent's constitution. Spells like Finger of Death are good to see their total fortitude save.

Anyhow, it's true. Mobs don't make any concentration check whatsoever.

And I'm fairly certain that casting cooldown timers aren't on the same timers as anything else. To my knowledge, they move at full speed while casting, they can attack and spell cast at the same time, and, of course, aren't affected by concentration checks, even by spells that were pretty much designed to force them such as melf's acid arrow and burning blood, making these spells next to useless.

I think the reason for this is quite simple: They never designed AI spellcasting to have the ability to be interrupted. As has been said earlier, it is quite clear that the NPC combatants have a sort of action queue, and something that stops them dead in their tracks has to wait for its place in the queue. There's no 'no cast' flag that is set for them, nor is there any sort of 'no move' flag that is checked before executiing such an action and set as soon as they are hit with a condition that would prevent it. Or perhaps there is, and some other wonky form of bolted on coding causes things such as stoned-mobs meandering about and helf archers continuing to fire unabated. It's stuff like this that really ****es me off.

This is just plain sloppy. One would think that actions would be based off an object inheritance, but there is no evidence to indicate this in anything but the most rudimentary of fashions. AI can move up sheer faces we slip down at the base. Can spam cast despite impediments, and a myriad of other things that clearly say 'we are disinterested in making battle simulacra, we simply wish to throw super-men to counter your super-men.'

When does this end? I would feel a lot better if the tables were even. Both ways, that is. Not in, necessarily, the power and such. At least, however, the basic "physics" that they have to obey. Even if they use a different weave (yes, I know, that's a Faerun, not Eberron thing), they're still mortal :D

MysticTheurge
07-10-2007, 04:10 PM
So they may not have a concentration check, but we can still get them to stop if we hit them hard enough.

Well no. Given the damage numbers that are achievable on an average attack and the HP numbers of mobs, it's still largely impossible.

Sure a maximized empowered disintegrate, or a crit-harm with all the enhancements might do the trick. But using this as a replacement for concentration checks is a cop out.

Gimpster
07-10-2007, 04:17 PM
Well no. Given the damage numbers that are achievable on an average attack and the HP numbers of mobs, it's still largely impossible.
Maybe for yall low-damaging people it is! Critical Rage II for the win.

bobbryan2
07-10-2007, 04:21 PM
Maybe for yall low-damaging people it is! Critical Rage II for the win.

Crit Rage II doesn't make you hit harder... just hit harder more often.

So it would still have to be an enemy with around 600 HP or less with most barbarians to be able to crit him hard enough.

600 HP casters are actually common though...

dameron
07-10-2007, 04:41 PM
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").

I suppose doing a Scorching Ray for 3 x 75 counts as three seperate attacks instead of one.

Still, unbelievably lame. Pick up a PHB sometime, at least read it on the toilet. The upside is when you're done with your business you'll have some paper handy.

Raithe
07-10-2007, 05:14 PM
I suppose doing a Scorching Ray for 3 x 75 counts as three seperate attacks instead of one.


I was about to call people on this one, but then your explanation made some sense (not really, but I comprehend it at least).

If what people are saying is true then the game mechanics have been refined. I fully remember tripping a minotaur pre-mod3, having it on the ground for a full second, then being killed by its charge.

Latency and buggy combat mechanics play a big part in our perception of the order of events.

Brynjolf
07-10-2007, 05:21 PM
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").

Do insta-death spells not count as doing a "certain percentage of its health" then? I only ask because I have been killed by direct damage spells cast by dead casters on more than one occasion.

Basically, I see my character cast. I see the enemy die. Then some sort of spell effect goes off and kills me. When I check my combat log, it will show that I hit the caster with FoD, for example, and it will show that they were killed by the FoD. Then it tells me I was hit by a spell and killed/damaged, but the only caster died and completed his death animation before his spell went off. Given how quickly they can cast, this means his spell must have started only slightly before his death and getting killed did not interrupt him.

Now I would be fine with this IF it worked the same way for me (i.e. my spells went off even after I died), but it doesn't. If I die, my spell is ruined. But the enemy mobs are finishing their spells after they die (in at least some cases). If that doesn't count as losing a "certain percentage", then they might as well be uninterruptable.

Just my observation.

Josh
07-10-2007, 06:08 PM
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").

Lol that's a bunch of ****. It's supposed to be a massive damage check for death, not a freaking chance to interrupt a spell.

Please.

darkgolem
07-10-2007, 06:38 PM
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").

I was not aware of this, but this threshold should be fiddled with, it may be to high.

It should be low enough that interrupting casters with ranged attacks is viable, and I do not mean with spammed disintegrates, but instead less dangerous attacks.

Why?

At high levels, the ultimate spell interrupter is finger of death, and mid level flesh to stone.

However, at lower levels, there really isn't one, at least none I have ever seen. Sure, scorching ray does damage, but still, at the point you get it, things are getting more hit points than the ray does. That being the case, the threshold should be lower until about 11th-12th level.

But you guys should have just told us that months ago. It's not something really noticeable, and you have had tons of player dissatisfaction based upon the failure to have concentration checks. Just my opinion.

MysticTheurge
07-10-2007, 06:49 PM
But you guys should have just told us that months ago. It's not something really noticeable, and you have had tons of player dissatisfaction based upon the failure to have concentration checks. Just my opinion.

This assumes that the current implementation actually makes up for the lack of concentration checks, which I think most people feel it doesn't.

Especially since the system has been in place for at least some time now and everyone still wants them to add concentration checks.

Spookydodger
07-10-2007, 07:17 PM
Concentration checks are one of the biggest problem today, I feel, for PC casters. It's simply very difficult to make a concentration check given the average amount of damage received from puffed-up mobs. If you max it out, at 14, you could get something like the following:

Ranks: 17
Feat: +4 (Combat Casting)
Feat: +3 (Skill Focus: Concentration)
Item: ~+10 (Concentration item)
Enhancements: ~+4(Improved Concentration)
Con Bonus: +10 (30(unlikely) Constitution.
----------------------------------------------
Total:~48;
Maximum Concentration check: 68

This would have a 50% chance of casting a 7th level spell after taking 40 points of damage.

Mind you, most casters aren't running around with a 30 constitution, combat casting, or the skill focus, bringing it lower still. Bringing the average 50% mark to concentrate on a spell to 25-30, if you happen to be equipped for it.

At normal levels, many mobs are doing this amount of damage with their eyes closed.

As a ranged user in paper and pencil, I found it incredibly useful sometimes to wait till a caster started to cast something, and then hit them with a weapon to force a concentration check. It would give Rangers and Rogues, especially, something else to do, as they both tend to have good ranged attacks to reach the casters in the back.

However, all of this is moot if the NPCs don't follow the rules that we have to. Make them have concentration checks.

I don't have a problem with NPCs being able to cast all the things we do, with the metamagic enhancements to boot. I'll even accept their unlimited mana as a necessary evil. There is NO reason, however, that they should not be bound by the the other limitations that we do when it comes to their casting, as well.

If The damn Vampire in the Church and the Cult can now cast Destruction (yes, you read me right), then let us whack him damage to try to disrupt the casting (not like there's much chance, but I would be a lot happier with a small chance than NO chance).

Luthen
07-10-2007, 08:52 PM
Gimpster is actually quite correct on this one. Hitting non-raid monsters for a certain percentage of its health in a single attack will interrupt whatever it is doing. Some monsters (such as Thaarak Hounds) are more vulnerable to interruption during certain actions (their "dance of death").

But if I get hit for 1 point of damage I get interrupted? That sounds fair. :rolleyes:

gelgoog
07-10-2007, 08:58 PM
i sense a trend with the devs.
don't like it then leave.....they never said this but seem to be acting like it.
no responses to legit issues that have been posted. nor fixes.
you all know of the issues i hint to.

only once in awhile they post for real issues with "we will look into it and get back to you" and don't respond....cough..red named immunities...cough.

i like this game, i want to keep playin this game a year from now as long as it's still around.......which seems like its a 50/50 chance now.

we just want a chance to trip, stun, stop all enemies from casting from purple/red named bosses to regular enemies...you know ...having fun with our builds.

but more and more it's a dps and i don't think this will change ever.
here's hopin to a ddo forgotten realms sequel where our beta testing of ddo eberron makes it good.

look at guild wars with there updates. they update, post update, then after the update it doesn't crash the system, or make it laggy.

play other games to see where we need to be.
ddo could be the best ever ....it just needs a few tweaks....that i don't think we will get.

but, i'll still play ddo cause no other mmorpg has a combat system like this which i like.

/shrug

Eladrin
07-10-2007, 09:49 PM
This assumes that the current implementation actually makes up for the lack of concentration checks, which I think most people feel it doesn't.

Especially since the system has been in place for at least some time now and everyone still wants them to add concentration checks.
That wasn't the intent of the interrupt mechanic, it's more along the lines of a replacement for the massive damage save. It's been in the game since launch.

MysticTheurge
07-11-2007, 06:38 AM
That wasn't the intent of the interrupt mechanic, it's more along the lines of a replacement for the massive damage save. It's been in the game since launch.

Ah, good.

Then when are we going to get a concentration check (or equivalent) implemented?

Sue_Dark
07-11-2007, 07:21 AM
So they may not have a concentration check, but we can still get them to stop if we hit them hard enough.

I dont see why this wouldnt work, it always worked for me with my little brother :D

Missing_Minds
07-11-2007, 07:30 AM
That wasn't the intent of the interrupt mechanic, it's more along the lines of a replacement for the massive damage save. It's been in the game since launch.

Then can we get casters to make the concentration check? This whole "interrupt" deal doesn't work on casters. Death doesn't even stop the spell from being completed. You can hit a kobold shaman right when its arms are being raised up for over half its health and the spell will still go off. Sure... if that won't cause an interruption, maybe a vorpal will. (Not really where I'd like to see the game go, even if it is currently seeming to head in that direction.)

I've been noticing a LOT lately that I'm being forced to make a concentration check AFTER I've already finished casting.

Gandalfs_Ghost
07-11-2007, 10:25 AM
Just want to add that I have killed many a caster in midcast and the spell did not go off.
Not saying 'always' but definitely have been able to shut down a caster in mid cast by killing him/her/it.
I also think that if enemy casters were subject to conc checks this game would be too easy.

Karethon
07-11-2007, 10:45 AM
Then can we get casters to make the concentration check? This whole "interrupt" deal doesn't work on casters. Death doesn't even stop the spell from being completed. You can hit a kobold shaman right when its arms are being raised up for over half its health and the spell will still go off. Sure... if that won't cause an interruption, maybe a vorpal will. (Not really where I'd like to see the game go, even if it is currently seeming to head in that direction.)

I've been noticing a LOT lately that I'm being forced to make a concentration check AFTER I've already finished casting.

I agree with this sentiment. Either enemy casters need to have concentration checks, or our spells need to be more pay on complete. My "favorite" is when I cast something with the long animation like a symbol, hands go up and start back down but the effect hasn't popped yet then I'm knocked down. I made my concentration check for getting hit and my cooldown timer is ticking away, but no symbol, cloud, whatever. And yet, I can watch a caster die from my finger of death and a second later his symbol appears. I'd be happy with consistency in that regard.

dameron
07-11-2007, 10:59 AM
Just want to add that I have killed many a caster in midcast and the spell did not go off.
Not saying 'always' but definitely have been able to shut down a caster in mid cast by killing him/her/it.
I also think that if enemy casters were subject to conc checks this game would be too easy.

It's an arbitrary immunity to cover bad A.I., same method they've used since day one.

When was the last time you saw a group of bugbears pull a shield wall in front of a couple of casters?

More, but more fragile, casters would help solve the problem, but, since they can't add more mobs (their graphics and networking systems are woeful in this regard) they have to make the smaller # of mobs that much more powerful.

Better dungeon design would also help, to allow casters to sit relatively safe for a few rounds and get off spells, but that takes time and development resources, much more time than say just making them immune, and Turbine is loath to throw good money after bad and spend the required amount of dev time on DDO.

At this point I'm well beyond being concerned with Turbine keeping up with the tactics of the dedicated end game guilds and whether or not they think the game is "easy" or not.

Get the rules right. Fix the obvious and idiotic departures from PnP. That would be a start.

GeneralDiomedes
07-12-2007, 10:22 AM
This assumes that the current implementation actually makes up for the lack of concentration checks, which I think most people feel it doesn't.

Especially since the system has been in place for at least some time now and everyone still wants them to add concentration checks.

Is that because the lack of concentration checks is truly a detriment to people's gaming experience, or that because people like to complain?

If they implemented concentration checks, then they would have to give the enemy a lot more defensive spells such as Blink, Repulsion (or whatever it's called), Mirror Image, Fly, *real* Teleport, etc or enemy casters would become a joke.

tekn0mage
07-12-2007, 10:39 AM
That wasn't the intent of the interrupt mechanic, it's more along the lines of a replacement for the massive damage save. It's been in the game since launch.

I'm not sure you understand our position.

When will this be changed?

Is it on the horizon? Is it not? Do you or other developers feel this is suitable and we just need to deal with it?

Some clarity is all we ever ask for.

GeneralDiomedes
07-12-2007, 10:48 AM
I'm not sure you understand our position.

When will this be changed?


I'm not sure you understand their position. :p

Gimpster
07-12-2007, 11:13 AM
I'm not sure you understand our position.

When will this be changed?
If they change it so monsters need to role concentration to cast (just like players!), it would only be fair do have monsters buff themselves with Jump and cast while running backwards in a circle bouncing way up in the air away from you (just like players!).

As long as mobs stand there to cast without taking advantage of players' free Mobile Casting and Aerial Casting feats (as well as Maximize Spell and Heighten Spell), there is no good reason to give them real concentration checks.

MysticTheurge
07-12-2007, 11:13 AM
If they implemented concentration checks, then they would have to give the enemy a lot more defensive spells such as Blink, Repulsion (or whatever it's called), Mirror Image, Fly, *real* Teleport, etc or enemy casters would become a joke.

A joke that spam spells with unlimited SP and far more hit points than they should.

Yeah, casters are a joke. :rolleyes:

Gandalfs_Ghost
07-12-2007, 11:43 AM
Well they are a joke MT. IMHO one of the biggest restrictions for encounters is the size of the battlefields compared to the movement rates of the players. In ddo players move further faster than pnp, no range penalties on bows or thrown, enemy casters are lucky to get any spells to land at all, spamming or not.
Add in concentration checks and theyd be laughable -- fireballs/walls, cloudkill, anything to inflict any damage, immediate or over time (melphs would finally be useful tho, so theres that).
Limit spell point pools and players would dupe the AI into wasting its mana pool, then sweep in and clean up.
Better AI would go a long way to helping this as mentioned previously, and I fully agree with that. It would be awesome to see enemy groups using more and varied challenging tactics.
But at the moment we do battle with the AI we have available to us.

Talon_Moonshadow
07-12-2007, 01:00 PM
The issue it seems is once a mob makes a decision to cast a spell, the spell always goes off as there does not seem to be any mechanism to disrupt it, including death.

The question is, is this a planned or unplanned event? Is unstoppable mob casting a mob cheat put in on purpose to deal with a lack-luster AI or is it an unintentional product of how mob casters work?

One of my favorite pet peaves! Kill the caster and he still gets his last spell off.....after death!

Mad_Bombardier
07-12-2007, 01:03 PM
One of my favorite pet peaves! Kill the caster and he still gets his last spell off.....after death!Which is what I've said from the beginning. I'm guessing this is attributable to the lack of turn-based play and some lag between your computer and the server. Server decides what mob caster will do, you kill mob simultaneously, mob appears 'killed' in combat log. Anywhere from same time to 5 seconds later, Symbol of Flame appears in the dungeon. If it's something other than normal client to server communication delay, please enlighten me/us.

dameron
07-12-2007, 01:10 PM
If they change it so monsters need to role concentration to cast (just like players!), it would only be fair do have monsters buff themselves with Jump and cast while running backwards in a circle bouncing way up in the air away from you (just like players!).


Kobold Shamans ring a bell?

Talon_Moonshadow
07-12-2007, 01:11 PM
Just want to add that I have killed many a caster in midcast and the spell did not go off.
Not saying 'always' but definitely have been able to shut down a caster in mid cast by killing him/her/it.
I also think that if enemy casters were subject to conc checks this game would be too easy.

I admit that I don't always notice it........but it seems that all Kobolds can cast spells after death!......might be different for other casters.

tekn0mage
07-12-2007, 02:26 PM
I'm not sure you understand their position. :p

I not sure that was really necessary. Snide comments aside, my point was directed at them, not you.

Eladrin's answer was cryptic that he did not CLEARLY explain whether or not they are happy with the current system, or whether or not they have heard our complaint and are looking into the matter.

Simply telling us what the intention of the design only shows Eladrin's perspective on it. I don't think dev's really care one way or the other how the game goes. That's up to the management to decide what to instruct the developers to code.

So again, I ask, is there a referendum to review this concentration check bug with the enemy casters?

dameron
07-12-2007, 02:33 PM
\Eladrin's answer was cryptic that he did not CLEARLY explain whether or not they are happy with the current system, or whether or not they have heard our complaint and are looking into the matter.


I'd have been much happier if they came out a year and a half ago and said "Enemy casters do not have to make concentration rolls" instead of letting it fester for so long.

It's natural to assume a mechanic that so cleary works against players might be a viable strategy against the enemy. Hell, at least now we can stop trying to interrupt them.

DKerrigan
07-12-2007, 02:53 PM
I'd have been much happier if they came out a year and a half ago and said "Enemy casters do not have to make concentration rolls" instead of letting it fester for so long.

It's natural to assume a mechanic that so cleary works against players might be a viable strategy against the enemy. Hell, at least now we can stop trying to interrupt them.

I gave up on that long ago.

I really wish that they'd remove concentration checks from the game all together if they're not going to be implemented on both sides of the fence. Sure, it's not PnP and all that, but PC casters are at a disadvantage until they hit level 11 anyway due to arbitrary HP bonuses awarded to mobs to make encounters last longer and give players a sense of accomplishment and all that jazz. Besides, enemy casters still get the above mentioned HP bonuses and an unlimited/quick regen spell point pool, so they can keep the upper hand.

As far as "free mobile casting" goes...there's a marked drop off in movement speed with the feat when you start the casting animation...without the feat you might as well be standing still. Not that you'd outrun any of the mobs in game anyway...

tekn0mage
07-12-2007, 04:33 PM
I'd have been much happier if they came out a year and a half ago and said "Enemy casters do not have to make concentration rolls" instead of letting it fester for so long.

It's natural to assume a mechanic that so cleary works against players might be a viable strategy against the enemy. Hell, at least now we can stop trying to interrupt them.

As with all things Turbine has done to this game, I agree that this is another area poorly implemented and poorly communicated to us, the players.

MtnLion
07-12-2007, 05:27 PM
...
Since a maxed out player has a DC check of around 30, and you are able to destruct/fod/pk them half the time, their Fortitude save is around 15-20. There's going to be a base bonus on the mob's level, plus appropriate bonus applied for every 2 points of CON above 10....

You all do some fancy calculations, me I just stone 'em and put a cloudkill on them, then add the numbers up (2 points con damage, 1 point con damage, ...). QED

Now, to topic, it is quite possible that since monster HD and Con seem to have no similar reationship to HP as PCs, that the multiplier for monster HP has a bearing on their concentration saves. Or, another way to look at it, HP is being used to calculate concentration saves (albeit erroneously).

Vendra
07-12-2007, 05:48 PM
signed! Quite being lazy devs!

MtnLion
07-12-2007, 05:51 PM
The only viable way to stop a spellcaster from spellcasting is to...
-Kill it.
-Trip it.
-Stun it.
-Paralyze it.
-Charm/suggest/dominate it.

I think this is why people shouldn't just instantly vendor the +4/6/8/10 Vertigo weapons they pull.

Or they can just send them to me. ;)

Err, how about feeblemind or touch of idiocy?

DrAwkward
07-17-2007, 02:53 PM
If they change it so monsters need to role concentration to cast (just like players!), it would only be fair do have monsters buff themselves with Jump and cast while running backwards in a circle bouncing way up in the air away from you (just like kobold shaman!).


Fixed

Gimpster
07-17-2007, 03:20 PM
I'd have been much happier if they came out a year and a half ago and said "Enemy casters do not have to make concentration rolls" instead of letting it fester for so long.
1. They did.
2. Players would have to be idiots not to figure that out on their own.

dameron
07-17-2007, 09:44 PM
1. They did.
2. Players would have to be idiots not to figure that out on their own.

I'd love to see where they said it. Got a link? I missed it.

No, a clear explanation of the interrupt mechanic, prominently addressed by a dev, was needed, since you can fairly easily interrupt lower level casters and the mechanic does not scale.

Ziggy
07-17-2007, 10:11 PM
1. They did.
2. Players would have to be idiots not to figure that out on their own.
Gimp, unless they said it in beta, Im pretty sure they didnt say it.

QuantumFX
07-18-2007, 11:00 AM
Is that because the lack of concentration checks is truly a detriment to people's gaming experience, or that because people like to complain?

*snip*

It's a detriment to me.

My main problem is that it destroys the illusion of playing D&D in a MMO environment. Critted, paralyzed, held, dead - it doesn't matter - the baddies just spam spells. It's the same thing with the retardedly stupid rule of you can't hit running foes.

If you need some playstyle rationales try these:
1) It destroys the usefulness of spells that were meant to disrupt a caster's spells. (Melfs, Burning Blood)
2) It also causes us to resort to BS tactics to deal with totally uninterruptable casters. (Wounding/Puncturing on clerics because they spam cast uninteruptible heal spells.)

Angelus_dead
02-02-2009, 05:32 AM
That wasn't the intent of the interrupt mechanic, it's more along the lines of a replacement for the massive damage save. It's been in the game since launch.
Handy reminder