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AEschyl
07-06-2007, 08:33 AM
Yes, I understand that to some people, "re-rolling" all the time, is the majority of the fun they have in this game... however to just as many people (if not more) that is quite the opposite.

It seems (to me at least) that Turbine is rewarding those players who share that philosophy by giving us access to more character slots, drow, and 32pt builds... all which require making a new character to take advantage of.

With all of the new and upcoming changes to the game, there is no doubt in my mind that many (if not all) of the "new character features" that will be coming out (like monks, prestige classes, druids, and whatever turbine comes up with) will require us to make a new character to take advantage of it.

Seeing how we have gotten ourselves into a pattern here, and since there is quite a large representation of the player base that does NOT enjoy re-rolling for whatever reason (mine is because I already have fully-geared and capable characters, and they will not be "replaced" by the new additions that Turbine rolls out with).

So my idea to help ease the fact that no matter what an end-content-power-gamer that doesn't like to re-roll, will indeed have to re-roll on down the road... why not make dragonshards or some other new collectible (that drops fairly often) give us the ability to trade bound-items from character to character (not from account to account, so no they are not tradeable, simply transferrable).

I understand this would open up the problem of raiding on one character to help outfit another one of your characters... but if done right, is that so bad?

I find the most annoying part of "re-rolling" isnt the xp part.. it's the "re-gearing" aspect.

Put like a week-timer on it, make it cost 10k-50kpp, require some new collectible, viable but still costly.


Does anyone agree? Have any other ideas/amendments? Am I way out of line here?

Ziggy
07-06-2007, 08:42 AM
I say exclude raid loot and this sounds interesting.

If you could trade all the bound story loot(WW,STK, etc...) then sure. BUt i dont think it should be possible to RAID, get yourself a raid item and send it to your alt.

Specifically because it would open up the abuse of, but my rogue needs that delving suit, so sorry mr rogue who got us through the traps in VON 5, im rolling for it.

Elfvyra
07-06-2007, 08:44 AM
Sorry, don't agree. And since no one is forcing you, or anyone else, to reroll... don't. See how easy that was? ;)

The_Cataclysm
07-06-2007, 08:50 AM
Do you propose this works cross different servers, Aesh? :)

AEschyl
07-06-2007, 09:07 AM
Do you propose this works cross different servers, Aesh? :)

haha no, but i wouldnt not use it if they implimented it :p

AEschyl
07-06-2007, 09:11 AM
Specifically because it would open up the abuse of, but my rogue needs that delving suit, so sorry mr rogue who got us through the traps in VON 5, im rolling for it.

well that would be more of a guild issue and/or the people you raid with issue, and as such should have no bearing on the actual mechanic of an implimentaion.

Mad_Bombardier
07-06-2007, 10:38 AM
No thanks. I enjoy playing the game for the journey. Part of that journey is completing a task and being rewarded with named items. But, that's just me.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-06-2007, 10:49 AM
Another way to deal with this might be in addition to the "delete" and "create" char options they gave us a "recreate" option on the login screen. If you chose "recreate" it would allow you to roll a new char just as if you used the "create" option except it would start with whatever inventory your existing char had (both bound and unbound items) in addition to the normal bound starter stuff.

Dane_McArdy
07-06-2007, 11:02 AM
I'm not keen on being able to spread around certain loot.

However, how about this.

You can will bound loot to another toon of yours. BUT, there is always a big but, isn't there? Lets talk about your big But Simone...

BUT...the character you will your bound item too, can only get their inheritance, once they original toon is deleted (Read as, dies).

That way, people can't use their uber geared up, soloing the Demon Queen toons to farm raid loot for their other toons.

So, if you really wanted to reroll a new toon, you could pass on your bound gear.

JelloMold
07-06-2007, 11:10 AM
No thanks. I enjoy playing the game for the journey. Part of that journey is completing a task and being rewarded with named items. But, that's just me.


and me

Klattuu
07-06-2007, 12:27 PM
The philosophy behind bound items is that they are slightly more powerful that items of similar restrictions. They are a reward for a job well done, not a reward for a good trade.

wraith87
07-06-2007, 12:31 PM
I'm not keen on being able to spread around certain loot.

However, how about this.

You can will bound loot to another toon of yours. BUT, there is always a big but, isn't there? Lets talk about your big But Simone...

BUT...the character you will your bound item too, can only get their inheritance, once they original toon is deleted (Read as, dies).

That way, people can't use their uber geared up, soloing the Demon Queen toons to farm raid loot for their other toons.

So, if you really wanted to reroll a new toon, you could pass on your bound gear.

Alright...what I'm getting from this is that:

The character that is passing on his bound items will die after passing said items to another character.

I think that'd be an almost acceptable way of doing things..

Rafal
07-06-2007, 12:48 PM
Alright...what I'm getting from this is that:

The character that is passing on his bound items will die after passing said items to another character.

I think that'd be an almost acceptable way of doing things..

I like this idea. Would give us a way to adjust to changes and at the same time we should see more lower level characters running around.

Klattuu
07-06-2007, 01:13 PM
Alright...what I'm getting from this is that:

The character that is passing on his bound items will die after passing said items to another character.

I think that'd be an almost acceptable way of doing things..

That may be programatically difficult. Maybe a permanent loss of 1 or 2 levels per loss of bound item would be easier to code.

AEschyl
07-06-2007, 01:37 PM
Alright...what I'm getting from this is that:

The character that is passing on his bound items will die after passing said items to another character.

I think that'd be an almost acceptable way of doing things..

ooh, that 'does' sound good!

Dane_McArdy
07-06-2007, 01:43 PM
That may be programatically difficult. Maybe a permanent loss of 1 or 2 levels per loss of bound item would be easier to code.

Naw, some mechanics are already in place.

The character with the bound items goes to the shyste...er Lawyer. Pays to have a will made. He pays the lawyer based on the value of the items.

So like when you put an auction up, the items go to the "house" disappear from your inventory.

Now, the person you said gets the items has to be in existance. So if you doing a reroll, you need to make that toon first.

So you have your will, you've handed over the items, now you need to delete that character.

Then the person that gets the items is sent mail notifing them of the tragic events that lead to the death of so and so, and how they wanted you to have such and such. YOu detach the items and they bind to that character.

Ta da.

Thank you. Now for my next trick....

Gimpster
07-06-2007, 01:48 PM
So my idea to help ease the fact that no matter what an end-content-power-gamer that doesn't like to re-roll, will indeed have to re-roll on down the road... why not make dragonshards or some other new collectible (that drops fairly often) give us the ability to trade bound-items from character to character
No. If there is a need to help characters reroll for prestige classes or something, then let them reroll that same character. Create an option (which will require you to type in your name/password again to confirm) which will drop a character back to level 1, or even back to the character creation- but keep favor and inventory.

That way, you can rebuild the character as you need, and the only thing you need to re-earn is XP, not favor or bound loot. I think the time spent releveling is enough of a penalty to keep total respecs from happening too much.

AEschyl
07-06-2007, 01:54 PM
that works too.

all i'm trying to accomplish here is the ability to re-roll and keep bound gear.

i'm a 1-character type player (i'm all about creating 1 "perfected" character that keeps me entertained and is of course... 'uber' :p)

so every time i have to re-roll, regaining all of that favor and bound loot is... well... annoying to say the least, especially when i never, ever, ever plan to play the old character again.

ddo is a different game to so many people, for me - it's about perfection, not about "having 1 of each type of class to play around with" - which seems to be the way ddo is emphasizing their content.

Dane_McArdy
07-06-2007, 02:13 PM
that works too.

all i'm trying to accomplish here is the ability to re-roll and keep bound gear.

i'm a 1-character type player (i'm all about creating 1 "perfected" character that keeps me entertained and is of course... 'uber' :p)

so every time i have to re-roll, regaining all of that favor and bound loot is... well... annoying to say the least, especially when i never, ever, ever plan to play the old character again.

ddo is a different game to so many people, for me - it's about perfection, not about "having 1 of each type of class to play around with" - which seems to be the way ddo is emphasizing their content.

You are going to have to do the quests again if you reroll, so who cares about regaining favor, honestly? You are going to get it anyway. Even if you have to unlock each level of a quest to get the most favor, that's only running each quest 3 times, and you won't have to do that.

Besides, if you reroll, you are a totally new person, that has no relationship with the NPC of Stormreach and such. Favor isn't just something that you get for playing the game in general.

It represents an aspect of roll playing that the game needs, and that is why it is tied to your character, not your account.

AEschyl
07-06-2007, 02:27 PM
woah woah, when did this become a thread about favor?

and dane, not everyone plays the game for the same reasons, so saying "the game needs more of an rp aspect" doesnt chime to everyone, maybe you - but definitely not me and a lot of my friends that play

some people play ddo for the role-play aspect

some people play ddo for the "loot" aspect

some people play ddo for the "being a child again" aspect

all i'm trying to do is open up another option that makes the power-gaming section of the game as happy as the re-rolling section of the game is.

Dane_McArdy
07-06-2007, 02:35 PM
woah woah, when did this become a thread about favor?

and dane, not everyone plays the game for the same reasons, so saying "the game needs more of an rp aspect" doesnt chime to everyone, maybe you - but definitely not me and a lot of my friends that play

some people play ddo for the role-play aspect

some people play ddo for the "loot" aspect

some people play ddo for the "being a child again" aspect

all i'm trying to do is open up another option that makes the power-gaming section of the game as happy as the re-rolling section of the game is.

Well, you are the one that said you didn't like having to regain favor and wanted to keep it when you rerolled.

It doesn't matter why someone personally plays the game, they can't build a game based on that because like you've pointed out, everyone plays for different reasons, and often those reasons conflict in what players want.

I've never been to keen on the idea of bound items, it seems rather silly, unless that is the very nature of the item, to bond till death with someone, but these aren't really those kinds of items.

But I also understand the reason for bound items in a game. The very reason they bind items is to keep their population low. The ability to pass them to another character, even your own seriously underminds that.

Games that don't have bound items or a way to remove items from the game eventually have an amazing glut of items. In EverQuest 1, this was true, and the makers of that game pointed out how perfectly good items have become completely usless because they are so common, along with better items that no one even wants them in trade. Why? Because items so seldom actually leave the game.

Basically all this does is allow someone to keep recycling a character into a more powerful version each time you level up and then reroll, with no loss. To you, the one player, you don't see this as a problem.

But to the game at large, over years, it becomes a real problem, as many players will do this.

And as for making powergamers and rerollers happy, again, they can't approach the game from that angle also. It's impossible to make one kind of gamer happy without upsetting another. And if there is one thing that is unfair, is doing that. They make the game, you experience as you want to. That's about the fairest you can expect.

AEschyl
07-06-2007, 03:02 PM
hence wraith87's idea of deleting character but transferring items

i like that idea more than my original idea actually

that way you're still "experiencing the game from the ground up" but you dont have to worry about running the same quest over and over just to get an item that you've already worked towards on a character you're NEVER going to use again

Ken_Dorak
07-06-2007, 03:07 PM
With all of the new and upcoming changes to the game, there is no doubt in my mind that many (if not all) of the "new character features" that will be coming out (like monks, prestige classes, druids, and whatever turbine comes up with) will require us to make a new character to take advantage of it.

Wow, it was that hard to figure out, huh?

*points and laughs*

Dane_McArdy
07-06-2007, 03:11 PM
hence wraith87's idea of deleting character but transferring items

i like that idea more than my original idea actually

that way you're still "experiencing the game from the ground up" but you dont have to worry about running the same quest over and over just to get an item that you've already worked towards on a character you're NEVER going to use again

WHAT?

MY IDEA thank you very much!

because deleting the character that passed on the item prevents the cycle of increasing power.

StanC
07-06-2007, 03:17 PM
A concern about reseting the character to level 1 would what would happen to the favor ? Would it be reset back to 0 or would it remain at the same level. I could someone exploiting the following. Get 1750 get tome, reset get 1750 favor get tome, rinse repeat.

Dane_McArdy
07-06-2007, 03:19 PM
A concern about reseting the character to level 1 would what would happen to the favor ? Would it be reset back to 0 or would it remain at the same level. I could someone exploiting the following. Get 1750 get tome, reset get 1750 favor get tome, rinse repeat.

IF, and that's a big IF, they ever did that, and you kept the favor, I'm sure there would be coding added that wouldn't allow you to get favor for the quests you already got favor for.

But that's a lot of work for something that isn't really in the spirit of the game, isn't it? I mean, starting at one, but twinked out in uber gear waiting for you. With extra stats from tomes and already being on the good list with the factions.

Mad_Bombardier
07-08-2007, 10:28 AM
I hate to dig this one up again, but I forgot to add my thoughts when this topic last went round. Bound named items are all -2 ml: for being bound. An easy fix *might* be to have them able to be unbound and return to normal ml:. Then you can transfer them at will.

Here's a futile case and a good case.

Blademaster's Gauntlets STR+3, ml:5. Unbind and they become normal STR+3 gloves, ml:7. No incentive to unbind as it's a readily available item.
Blademaster's Bracers DEX+3, ml:5. Unbind and they become DEX+3 bracers, ml:7. Same ml: as other DEX+3 items, but unique because they are the only DEX bracer in the game. Still potentially useful to another character.

But, bequeathing items to a reroll char, even with death of primary character... no thanks. You're basically inviting players to roll fighters (easiest to play/solo at low levels) to powerlevel 1-8 or 10, get all the named loot, then roll their main character and transfer all their goodies.

Gimpster
07-08-2007, 12:39 PM
Blademaster's Bracers DEX+3, ml:5. Unbind and they become DEX+3 bracers, ml:7. Same ml: as other DEX+3 items, but unique because they are the only DEX bracer in the game. Still potentially useful to another character.
Dex bracers drop in madstone.


But, bequeathing items to a reroll char, even with death of primary character... no thanks. You're basically inviting players to roll fighters (easiest to play/solo at low levels) to powerlevel 1-8 or 10, get all the named loot, then roll their main character and transfer all their goodies.
Ha ha! Fighters easiest to solo at low level? Not nearly.
And- getting the named loot by level 8-10? Not likely, what with the 3-day timer to repeat those raids.

Hendrik
07-08-2007, 12:53 PM
and me

And me...

Mad_Bombardier
07-09-2007, 11:14 AM
Dex bracers drop in madstone.So they do. Forgot about those. :o But at the same +3 DEX and higher ml:, unbound Blademaster's would still be useful for 4 levels.

Ha ha! Fighters easiest to solo at low level? Not nearly.
And- getting the named loot by level 8-10? Not likely, what with the 3-day timer to repeat those raids. And I should have clarified melee, not Fighter. And yes, most people can waltz a melee class (probably a Ranger/Paly or Cleric splash for self-healing) through all the quests up through Deleras to get every piece of named loot they'd ever want. Yes, we're talking Normal difficulty. But, who cares? It's end reward loot afterall.

And on named loot, we are talking about bound end rewards. Nearly every proposal in this thread excludes raid loot from transfer.

skraus1
07-09-2007, 11:49 AM
And on named loot, we are talking about bound end rewards. Nearly every proposal in this thread excludes raid loot from transfer.

I am not really sure about that. If you could will anything, wouldn't raid loot be it? I mean I really doubt someone would roll a fighter, flag for the titan and the reaver get all the caster items and then make a caster to replace the fighter. I can see however a fighter do this, and then realize they have a bad build and want to reroll a better fighter.

Also, the only bound loot I thought people cared about was raid loot, and maybe an item or two from threnal as well. Delera's and Co6 loot is easy to get, but it may take a couple hrs to run through it enough to get the exact item you need. You probably will need to do both these series several times to get back to level 14 anyway.

As for getting 2 +2 tomes for 1750, if favor was kept this is not an issue as the toon would already be over 1750, and the toon probably would lose the +2 tome in addition. This would only be a problem if favor reset AND tomes could be willed on, which is kind of silly.

Dark_Vengeance
07-09-2007, 11:55 AM
well that would be more of a guild issue and/or the people you raid with issue, and as such should have no bearing on the actual mechanic of an implimentaion.

His point is welcome to the days of people farming raid loot with capped toons to deck out all the rest of their characters. Quite frankly, I don't think that would be right....characters completely outfitted with raid loot that have never even been on a raid. I'm annoyed enough that there are folks running around my server in dragon armor that still can't even access the Tor.

They should only bind the high-end stuff. Raid loot, special armors, unique end rewards (particularly from chain quests). What annoys me is when you get like a proof against poison ring (or some other commonplace non-static item) on the TR/WW/STK/Co6 end rewards, and try to send it to an alt only to realize that it's bound.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

Bombalo
07-09-2007, 12:07 PM
I dunno I like ziggy's idea...i dont think it would be a problem moving bound items around AS LONG AS IT ISNT RAID LOOT. Cause seriously in the grand aspect when do you stop getting bound items that arent raid items. Threnal??? as seriously how big are those items anyway. I think as long as it doesnt apply to raid loot it wouldnt be that huge of a deal however I can understand why people would say all or nothing and if thats the case then the answer is nothing. Raid loot is special and should be kept to the toon that ran it.

OKCRandy1
07-09-2007, 12:55 PM
I'm not keen on being able to spread around certain loot.

However, how about this.

You can will bound loot to another toon of yours. BUT, there is always a big but, isn't there? Lets talk about your big But Simone...

BUT...the character you will your bound item too, can only get their inheritance, once they original toon is deleted (Read as, dies).

That way, people can't use their uber geared up, soloing the Demon Queen toons to farm raid loot for their other toons.

So, if you really wanted to reroll a new toon, you could pass on your bound gear.

Very funny! /agree

AEschyl
07-09-2007, 12:57 PM
yup, i agree. that would be a better way of accomplishing what i originally was intending to accomplsih.

cfoltz604
07-09-2007, 01:13 PM
How about just giving everyone one new character slot

Ithrani
07-09-2007, 01:37 PM
My biggest problem with most of the re-roll ideas is that most of them mean losing your characters name. I don't want to have to pre-make a character with a different name, then send my bound stuff to him (with his 3 inventory packs and 1 bank spot) Nor do I like the idea that because my build has 3 different classes I cannot take a prestige class (I understand the 3 class limit) if I wanted to unless I delete my character. We have all this time before they release prestige classes, did Turbine expect people to just leave characters half finished in anticipation of a prestige class that may not even come to us. So the idea of being able to rebuild your whole character from the start, with favor and bound items because it is the same character as per Gimp's suggestion, is a viable one.

Personally I never liked the idea of a complete respec, it is not really possible in PnP unless your DM 1. doesn't care 2. Feels that a respec would make sense for some odd reason. PnP'ers face this issue every time a new books gets published and there are 20 new feats and 100 new spells and there is a feat that fits perfectly into someones build and they would have taken it 10 level ago, but 10 levels ago was 6 months ago and the book with the feat was not released until now.

A good example of acceptable respecing is, my friend John creates a Dwarven Fighter, my friend Tom takes over playing the character because John stops playing DnD. Tom then stops play DnD around the same time John comes back. Tom took a few feats John did not feel was right for the character, since the feat (Hold the Line) was never really used by the character when played by either player I allowed John to change the feat.

The pally in the same group wants to change Weapon Focus (the character has it since level 1) That PC has also changed hands from players. But since the character has always used Weapon Focus and the only good reason my friend can come up with not wanting it is because at 18th level +1 to hit is not such a big deal, giving up +1 to hit compared to a free feat is huge bargain, and thats exactly why I won't allow it. Even though he did not chose the feat he admitted he probably would have taken it at 1st level himself.

So there is a line where respecs due to changes in a game and such should be allowed, a total character respec should never be allowed in PnP, if anything just re-roll the character and give it average wealth (DM gives magic items based on this number) and you have a whole new character you created, and the other one was turned to stone and eaten by a fiendish basilisk that also eats souls so nothing can bring the character back, not even a deity. BUT since Turbine does this kooky stuff with the game (like it not being a complete game, not complete as in you can't get to level 20, classes and races are missing blah blah blah) I can see where a complete respec/rebuilding like gimp said might be a big help to those who hate to re-roll (I know I do) And there really in lies the difference, Gimp does not suggest a respecing but a complete rebuilding of the character from level 1 up, with favor and gear retained.

AEschyl
07-10-2007, 12:44 PM
How about just giving everyone one new character slot

that.... wouldnt solve anything that this thread is discussing.

Harbinder
07-10-2007, 12:53 PM
Not signed.

You want the bound loot, you do the quest and get it.