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SqtYork
07-05-2007, 10:51 AM
Lessons learned from both sides

If you are a non healer type and you have over 200k plat just go buy a stack of the following pots and carry them with you. Use the Removes and save the healer's mana. Better yet just wear the poison, disease immunity items when it's appropriate. Every time they cast one of these on you it's a cure mod they can't cast on someone else, half a heal spell or rez. The are the near the same cost an an extended resist energy spell. It adds up after a while.

Keep in mind they weigh 1 lb / 10 pots so unless you are a str brute you might want to keep the stacks below 100 each

Remove Curse (20 SPs)
Remove Blindness (15 SPs)
Remove Disease (20 SPs)
Lessor restoration (15 SPs)
Neutralize poison - pop before fighting poisoners you get 6 mins of poison immunity (25 SPs) + it's another 15 SPs for lessor restores, or 25 for full restore, and 35 for greater restore.

Cure Serious wounds / Oil of repair serious for when the healer is low on mana, in a quest with few or no shrines, or just because. (25 SPs) Wands are cheaper than pots. Wands replace a weapon while you use them, and toggle Combat Effectiveness so becareful using them in combat.

Use these to buff yourself unless there is someone with better buffs

Barkskin +3 6 mins
Shield of Faith +3 (until you get a +3 prot item) 6 mins
Heroism 5 mins +2 to hit and saves
Haste - 30 secs for when you need to catch up, or in a fight when someone forgets or can't haste. Addes 40% to your damage output and +1 to your AC

Pop the first 3 and you have +6 to AC, +2 to hit, skills, and saves

Also carry pots of fire and acid resist to neutralize burning blood if you don't have caster resists on at the time. take a few secs per pot and saves you lots of HPs.

Impaqt
07-05-2007, 11:07 AM
See the link in my SIg for "DOnt leave home without it"

I see no reason why someone bank accound should have anything to do with carrying BASIC supplies....

Its every adventurers responsiblility to be prepared...ANd hast is +1 to Attack, +1 to AC and 40% faster attack Rate... Which doesnt necessarily translate to 40% more damage

Lithic
07-05-2007, 11:48 AM
See the link in my SIg for "DOnt leave home without it"

I see no reason why someone bank accound should have anything to do with carrying BASIC supplies....

Its every adventurers responsiblility to be prepared...ANd hast is +1 to Attack, +1 to AC and 40% faster attack Rate... Which doesnt necessarily translate to 40% more damage

Actually it translates exactly to AT LEAST 40% more damage, and thats if you would need a 21 or more to hit. The +1 to hit will increase your damage output even more if you need a 20 or less to hit, though if you hit on a 2 it wont do you any good.

Mad_Bombardier
07-05-2007, 11:53 AM
ANd hast is +1 to Attack, +1 to AC and 40% faster attack Rate... Which doesnt necessarily translate to 40% more damageHaste is +40% Movement, +25% attack rate.

Impaqt
07-05-2007, 12:08 PM
Actually it translates exactly to AT LEAST 40% more damage, and thats if you would need a 21 or more to hit. The +1 to hit will increase your damage output even more if you need a 20 or less to hit, though if you hit on a 2 it wont do you any good.

Lets do some math with the correct number... (Thanks M_B)

Lets assume 4 attack.. 25% Faster makes that 5 in the same time frame.

Les assume you Hit on EVerything except a 1... 1 is Always a Miss in our D20 system....

If you hit EVERY time then you gain 25% better damage output..... ANytime you roll a 1 your lowering the gain..... There is no way for your damage to exceed your attack rate...

For every step lower in To Hit, your Damage Potential is going down more.....

25% faster Attack Rate cannot and never will = 25% (Or higher) damage rate.

Lithic
07-05-2007, 02:47 PM
Lets do some math with the correct number... (Thanks M_B)

Lets assume 4 attack.. 25% Faster makes that 5 in the same time frame.

Les assume you Hit on EVerything except a 1... 1 is Always a Miss in our D20 system....

If you hit EVERY time then you gain 25% better damage output..... ANytime you roll a 1 your lowering the gain..... There is no way for your damage to exceed your attack rate...

For every step lower in To Hit, your Damage Potential is going down more.....

25% faster Attack Rate cannot and never will = 25% (Or higher) damage rate.


Ok my mistake, due to the first poster I thought it was 40% :P

BUT a 25% increase in attack speed is equal to a 25% increase in damage output. Since haste increases the speed of your attack chain, you get 25% more attacks in the same period of time (say 2min48secs when extended). These attacks would correspond to +25% damage if they were identical to your normal attacks. However you also get +1 to hit. Assuming your target has an armour class which you can hit between a 3 and 20, this +1 means more attacks hit, which means you get even more damage output.

Best case (for damage, not for playing) is if you need exactly a 20 to hit. The haste +1 to hit means you hit on a 19, which doubles your hits in any time period, which means a 100% increase in damage output. Theoretically, such a target would suffer 250% of your normal damage output during the haste (100% x 1.25speedboost x 200% forhitting on 19). It is actually a little higher since you will also crit twice as often on a 20crit range weapon (4 times on a crit 19-20, etc..).

In any case, bare minimum haste effect is an increase in damage output equal to the increase in attack speed.

boldarblood
07-05-2007, 08:34 PM
I do not even bother asking or expecting clerics to caste remove curse/blind/disease on me. I also do not expect them to get rid of the few points of stat damage after a fight (lesser restore potions work great). I also do not expect a cleric to get rid of my fear (remove fear potion, mummy fear is another thing, but I will always put on a reaver ring if doing a quest that it becomes necesary). I would much rather the cleric save his mana for offensive spells to help out.

Kaldaka
07-11-2007, 09:56 AM
Why are you complaining about using SP for these minute things such as disease, curse, restore, etc.? As a cleric it is your JOB to buy wands for such spells and to not use your SPs for them. Ever heard of a scroll of Heal or Raise Dead? if not, go to house J and buy a lot of them. You have obviously been on for a long time (join date for you is June 2006), so don't tell me you don't have the plat for it. Why should a tank waste about 12 or more (resist energies takes 5 slots) inventory slots to carry pots of stuff that you could carry wands for. My tank has more than a full inventory sheet of weapons, I doubt your cleric does.

Impaqt
07-11-2007, 10:17 AM
Why are you complaining about using SP for these minute things such as disease, curse, restore, etc.? As a cleric it is your JOB to buy wands for such spells and to not use your SPs for them. Ever heard of a scroll of Heal or Raise Dead? if not, go to house J and buy a lot of them. You have obviously been on for a long time (join date for you is June 2006), so don't tell me you don't have the plat for it. Why should a tank waste about 12 or more (resist energies takes 5 slots) inventory slots to carry pots of stuff that you could carry wands for. My tank has more than a full inventory sheet of weapons, I doubt your cleric does.

Nice attitude..... I dont care how much money a Cleric has.. Buying stacks of 100 heal scrolls gets Expensive..... Withan Attitude like that I hope you woudl carry a few of the essential clickies/Pots...

The Cleric Decides if you stay Healthy.. The cleric decides if you DIe..... I dont feel like Removing your Poison.. You've got a good Fort save right?

Its Fighters with Attitudes like your that make Clerics Cringe..... ANd I've let more than a fair share die.

tc12
07-11-2007, 05:30 PM
As a cleric it is your JOB to buy wands for such spells and to not use your SPs for them. Ever heard of a scroll of Heal or Raise Dead? if not, go to house J and buy a lot of them. You have obviously been on for a long time (join date for you is June 2006), so don't tell me you don't have the plat for it.

Wow. Others should spend their plat on maximizing their ability to heal you, while you save your plat... for your own equipment presumably? Please tell us which server you play on and your character names so I can be sure I've never partying with you. Do you at least buy cure wands and hand them to clerics, or give them equivalent plat? I play a wide range of characters, and I almost always do this on my non-clerics, esp on quests where I know they'll really be needed.



Why should a tank waste about 12 or more (resist energies takes 5 slots) inventory slots to carry pots of stuff that you could carry wands for. My tank has more than a full inventory sheet of weapons, I doubt your cleric does.

Well on resists I agree, esp at higher levels as there's no 30 resist pots anyway. Someone other than the cleric should help here, on my ranger I don't mind sharing the buff burden. Most paladin's I know don't either.

But I always carry pots or wands for self-topping up of HP between battles, as well as other handy pots. I don't care how many weapons you have, if inventory room is your excuse for not taking charge of some of your self healing/buffing/restoring it's a pretty lame one.

Yes, everyone has a role to play in a party. And some can increase their contributions by spending more plat. But to say some classes are obligated to spend a huge amount of plat on consumables -- without the full group sharing that cost -- is so incredibly lame I can't believe you'd suggest this is your expectation.

Kaldaka
07-11-2007, 08:22 PM
Give me a break, this whole thread is about a cleric complaining about using spell points, not about spending money. Quit changing the subject.

Aranticus
07-11-2007, 09:59 PM
Give me a break, this whole thread is about a cleric complaining about using spell points, not about spending money. Quit changing the subject.

give us a break will you? your post is just about a selfish person refusing to buy any non-gear items but demanding the other players to keep you alive. quit changin the subject will you?

talk about tanks? ok i talk tank with you. i have 28 weapons on my fighter, 2 stacks of 100 csw. 1 stack of 100 barkskin. 1 stack of 100 remove fear. i have on myself acid, cold, elect, fire and sonic cloaks. all gtr resist. i have remove blindness, cure, disease, less restore and other stat removal clickies. i have bless, prayer, hero, gtr hero and other self buff clickies. i also carry prot of energy clickies for critical fights.

obvious my fighter can do these, i dun see how you CANNOT do it. i also see that you joined in feb 2007, 5 mths to learn, i dun see how you do not know how to do it. :mad:

Ghoste
07-11-2007, 10:22 PM
Know what's a good laugh? Taking a warforged character and purposely letting a mummy hit you until you get mummy's curse to make you that much harder to heal.

/e cackles fiendishly.

Nevthial
07-12-2007, 03:33 AM
Know what's a good laugh? Taking a warforged character and purposely letting a mummy hit you until you get mummy's curse to make you that much harder to heal.

/e cackles fiendishly.

Sorry, off topic, but you're Evil Ghoste! LOL

Kaldaka
07-12-2007, 09:03 AM
Ok lets talk about spending money for tanks . . .
Lets see . . . about 2 million Plat each for Vorpal, Disrupter, Banisher, Smiter and Paralyzer . . .
NONE of which a cleric needs to buy, all he needs to buy are some wands and scrolls . . . THERE IS NO COMPARISON HERE.
(realize I used the word NEED there, if he wants to that's his prerogative, but a waste of money IMO)

Of course my tank has clickies and potions FOR EMERGENCY USE, but its the cleric's JOB to have the wands for use in the party. SO TO ALL YOU CLERICS OUT THERE QUIT B*TCHING ABOUT USING YOUR SPELL POINTS AND BUY SOME WANDS.

Impaqt
07-12-2007, 09:26 AM
First, If you spend that kind of money on those weapons, then you got taken.....

Second, NONE of them are a "Need" Sure, they are nice, but definatly not a NEED.

You think Superior Potency 7 grows on Trees? Mithral Full Plate? And I can tell you positivly that many battle clerics carry all those weapons as well......

Concentraiton Item, Swim, balance, +6 Wisdom... They all Cost money.. Or.... gasp..... We PULL them for free.. Just like i hope you pulled some of those P5's from your significantly better End rewards list....

Please tell us what server yer on and your character names.

Shrazkil
07-12-2007, 11:22 AM
I have a cleric, and i must say, i have never spent alot on wands or scrolls much in my life. It is not my job to have wands on me. It is my job to decide whether or not your status ailment is severe enough to use mana on, or make you wait till a shrine comes along. While it certainly depends on the clerics build, i know my mana goes about 40% towards healing, and 60% towards smiting and commanding. I will use wands that i recieve from group members or chests, and will almost never use a bought wand to heal anyone except a guildmate. If tanks cannot control their aggroe enough, guess its time for them to recall, and get health back in a tavern.

Zenako
07-12-2007, 11:48 AM
As a Cleric I am happy to have along any character who can solo effectively, since to me that indicates that they have all the basic required gear for self preservation. I have run in some PUGs where as soon as I joined the Barbarian player hands me a stack of HEAL and Raise Dead scrolls, saying, the way he plays he is gonna need them. (And he did - twas in TSE some time back and of the 6 party deaths I think he had 4...amusing to say the least. Balls to wall, charge ahead, damn the torpedoes Barbarian steroetype, BUT he was willing to pay for his own burn so to speak.).

Do I buy wands or scrolls, only occasionally and then usually only for certain occasions. (Madstone on elite for example...ouch) and even then I usually get handed more than I buy by a good margin.

I do keep a rack of Remove Wands on tap, but more because I do not want to waste spell slots on those spells. I got more fun things to keep available. Anyone at higher ends without a least a Improved Fire Resist Item or source and some sort of Acid Resist item is not doing their part to keep themselves alive. I can understand not having Sonic, Lighting or Cold items, those effects are much less prevalent and harder to justify keeping an item slot filled with (until you get lucky and combine them on one.) I will DV up a Paly or Ranger dropping Resists or Barks on party members. Makes good sense for mana management.

As for uber Items claiming to be needed. As a cleric I could put out a list that would match your needs plat for plat I am sure and then some.

tc12
07-12-2007, 12:38 PM
If tanks cannot control their aggroe enough, guess its time for them to recall, and get health back in a tavern.

Great point. I've seen clerics, wiz and sorcs all do this, but never heard a fighter offer to do this when a cleric is low on mana. I suppose it's "their job" to do so, but never the fighters, eh Kaldaka?

BTW, you still haven't told us your server/char names. LOL

Ghoste
07-12-2007, 12:46 PM
Sorry, off topic, but you're Evil Ghoste! LOL
It's not off topic. It's about wasting your cleric's SP, is it not?

SqtYork
07-12-2007, 12:48 PM
I had to go get high end Potency Items, High End Devotion Items, Power/Wizardry Items. DC items and Penetration items for my offensive spells, Deathblock, scrolls, etc. So you spend 200k pp on an elite weapon? you think I don't want to carry a banisher/distruptor. Sometimes I get mobbed in the back when the melee's charge into battle and don't watch the casters in the back. So I need weapons too.
each of your 200k pp items you have to buy exactly once. On the other hand I have to buy 1.2k pp 50 use wands, 25k for 50 heal / raise dead scrolls. I also have at least seven slots of spell components. 4 of my tool bars are filled with active spells, and if I wanted to slot every spell possible I wouldn't have room for the rest of my stuff. Each item also takes inventory slots just like yours.

The thread was not just complaining about wasted spell points. It is about resource management for the group. Specifically relative to Cleric resources. I could just stand by and watch you battle a high DR nasty healing you for a min or two. But then your items take damage, you burn up boosts, etc. A wizard/sorc will cast firewalls for the melee's to fight in because it's more SP efficient and time efficient. A cleric might cast Destruction / Slay living on a mob because it would cause more damage to the group to heal than the cost for a one shot spell. A cleric might case a Greater Command on a large group of melee mobs because they won't have to heal while the group wipes them. What I wanted to point out was that relying on the casters to buff and fix you is an avoidable drain on the groups resources. The SPs can be better spent on other things for the group. Faster killing means short term and long term buffs last for more fights. It might mean the difference between using a just one boost during a fight instead of two. It might mean you have boosts left for the last battle.

If you want to complain about money management, then we could switch to Cure light wounds wands for post fight topping off. It would take three times as long at least compared to CSW wands. Heal scrolls are faster than a casted heal, but far less effective. My casted heal 30-50% more effective than a scroll heal. When you have 200+ hit points that makes a difference too.

CaitMonster
07-12-2007, 01:04 PM
I had to go get high end Potency Items, High End Devotion Items, Power/Wizardry Items. DC items and Penetration items for my offensive spells, Deathblock, scrolls, etc. So you spend 200k pp on an elite weapon? you think I don't want to carry a banisher/distruptor. Sometimes I get mobbed in the back when the melee's charge into battle and don't watch the casters in the back. So I need weapons too.
each of your 200k pp items you have to buy exactly once. On the other hand I have to buy 1.2k pp 50 use wands, 25k for 50 heal / raise dead scrolls. I also have at least seven slots of spell components. 4 of my tool bars are filled with active spells, and if I wanted to slot every spell possible I wouldn't have room for the rest of my stuff. Each item also takes inventory slots just like yours.

The thread was not just complaining about wasted spell points. It is about resource management for the group. Specifically relative to Cleric resources. I could just stand by and watch you battle a high DR nasty healing you for a min or two. But then your items take damage, you burn up boosts, etc. A wizard/sorc will cast firewalls for the melee's to fight in because it's more SP efficient and time efficient. A cleric might cast Destruction / Slay living on a mob because it would cause more damage to the group to heal than the cost for a one shot spell. A cleric might case a Greater Command on a large group of melee mobs because they won't have to heal while the group wipes them. What I wanted to point out was that relying on the casters to buff and fix you is an avoidable drain on the groups resources. The SPs can be better spent on other things for the group. Faster killing means short term and long term buffs last for more fights. It might mean the difference between using a just one boost during a fight instead of two. It might mean you have boosts left for the last battle.

If you want to complain about money management, then we could switch to Cure light wounds wands for post fight topping off. It would take three times as long at least compared to CSW wands. Heal scrolls are faster than a casted heal, but far less effective. My casted heal 30-50% more effective than a scroll heal. When you have 200+ hit points that makes a difference too.

KUDOS. WELL PUT.

CaitMonster
07-12-2007, 01:05 PM
Saving SP. Hmm... this is where cleric is expensive. Yes I agree with the point of being more friendly to your cleric. I always offer haggle, and to buy or give wands/scrolls. Or some pp to offset the cost of these things. On top of carrying most of those items.

It helps if your parties carry these things but to be honest, how many times when you pug do you actually see people doing these things? Out side of your friends list and guildies does this happen? Very rarely in my experience.

Also if your a cleric and you want to save pp as well as money a combination of heal scrolls/ wands helps. and also remember that taking time to use cure light over cure mod and cure mod over cure serious can save pp as well. 7 charges of cure mod is equal to 1 charge of cure serious cost wise. (also works for clr/umd builds)

And wands for remove disease/curse/poison/blindness/paralysis and lesser restore also save sp. or even restore scrolls. (for the clr or the umd builds)

ghoste, if you want to save sp for the more important stuff meet your party half way.

and for those who party with clerics if your not willing (or can't afford) to carry all these pot/umd items , at least be nice and offer some pp, or if you have a good haggle skill, haggling for your cleric. Or words of kindness or appreciation for them doing their job.

MasterofDungeons
07-12-2007, 01:18 PM
Buying weapons at 5x 2million? Sheesh. Keeping those plat sellers in business egh? ;)

Ghoste
07-12-2007, 01:36 PM
I have heard clerics from my guild say that they will only expend so many charges of a wand and so many scrolls for PUG groups. Our guild tends to help out though with the expenses, even me despite what my sig says (which is also my in game bio atm).

Once got a /tell from a guild cleric: "these guys cant afford what they're putting me through" followed by "can you please buy me some heal and raise dead scrolls and then meet me in the tent in threnal?" She wanted to pay me back, but I'd figure she'd used enough of those scrolls on me as well.

Zenako
07-12-2007, 01:53 PM
I have heard clerics from my guild say that they will only expend so many charges of a wand and so many scrolls for PUG groups. Our guild tends to help out though with the expenses, even me despite what my sig says (which is also my in game bio atm).

Once got a /tell from a guild cleric: "these guys cant afford what they're putting me through" followed by "can you please buy me some heal and raise dead scrolls and then meet me in the tent in threnal?" She wanted to pay me back, but I'd figure she'd used enough of those scrolls on me as well.

Ouch, and Threnal is not a real SP sink from what I have seen....must have been a "fun" group.

Killum
07-12-2007, 02:37 PM
Why are you complaining about using SP for these minute things such as disease, curse, restore, etc.? As a cleric it is your JOB to buy wands for such spells and to not use your SPs for them. Ever heard of a scroll of Heal or Raise Dead? if not, go to house J and buy a lot of them. You have obviously been on for a long time (join date for you is June 2006), so don't tell me you don't have the plat for it. Why should a tank waste about 12 or more (resist energies takes 5 slots) inventory slots to carry pots of stuff that you could carry wands for. My tank has more than a full inventory sheet of weapons, I doubt your cleric does.

Your type are the reason my clr hardly ever pug's any more. My clr won't even run with some of my guildies any more either. Its a thankless job that keep him poor. I have a lot more fun on my tank and ranged builds and I try my best to give the healer wands every quest, and if I don't have them on me I give plat. And as a TWF I have a bunch of weapons on me but still seem to have room for resist, protect, bark, remove, and cure pots. Your crazy if you truly believe that being a tank is as costly as being a cleric.

Winded
07-12-2007, 03:18 PM
I love hearing from people trying to tell others how to play a class they themselves have never played. Its comforting to know there are so many people genetically predisposed to such vast amounts of knowledge.

Make a cleric , run wiz king with a pug without a single Disease Immunity item and then come back here.

Rentz
07-12-2007, 05:14 PM
Ok lets talk about spending money for tanks . . .
Lets see . . . about 2 million Plat each for Vorpal, Disrupter, Banisher, Smiter and Paralyzer . . .
NONE of which a cleric needs to buy, all he needs to buy are some wands and scrolls . . . THERE IS NO COMPARISON HERE.
(realize I used the word NEED there, if he wants to that's his prerogative, but a waste of money IMO)

Of course my tank has clickies and potions FOR EMERGENCY USE, but its the cleric's JOB to have the wands for use in the party. SO TO ALL YOU CLERICS OUT THERE QUIT B*TCHING ABOUT USING YOUR SPELL POINTS AND BUY SOME WANDS.

wow
ignorant S.O.B award right there..

congrats on being an @$$hat.

Aranticus
07-12-2007, 08:28 PM
Ok lets talk about spending money for tanks . . .
Lets see . . . about 2 million Plat each for Vorpal, Disrupter, Banisher, Smiter and Paralyzer . . .
NONE of which a cleric needs to buy, all he needs to buy are some wands and scrolls . . . THERE IS NO COMPARISON HERE.
(realize I used the word NEED there, if he wants to that's his prerogative, but a waste of money IMO)

Of course my tank has clickies and potions FOR EMERGENCY USE, but its the cleric's JOB to have the wands for use in the party. SO TO ALL YOU CLERICS OUT THERE QUIT B*TCHING ABOUT USING YOUR SPELL POINTS AND BUY SOME WANDS.

go tank a few more mths before you discuss tanking. many of us here DO NOT spend pp on epics. need em? run potp. i got 4 of them in the last loot weekend, including a vorpal battleaxe of pure good. my tank has yet to buy any epics. trade yes. if fact i got quite a nice number that to clear my inventory, i gave a couple out to guildies.

clickies? for emergency use? my fighter was using his clickies to remove mummy rot in wizking. using his remove fear to help dispaired party members. if you are not willing to help out then fine, dun help, but dun expect the cleric to heal you either. casters and clerics do not need tanks to run a quest. my caster have soloed a number of quests with just charm monster. my clr have not done that but i did make it to the top of the potp tower by myself.

a word to ya, quit the game before you get banned.....

Nevthial
07-12-2007, 08:32 PM
We don't have a straight classed Cleric in our small guild. There are a few of us who have characters with a level or 2 of Cleric, but that is it. When we are lucky enough to have one run with us, we usually overwhelm them with donations of platinum, wands , scrolls, ect. Most of the time we even let persons ( not just clerics) who run with us that aren't part of our normal group have pick of the litter when it comes to loot out of chests. The game is supposed to be fun, not a job.
Please donate to Clerics you run with!

Just my opinion, others may do as they wish, and they may find themselves dead and/or dying without help.

CaitMonster
07-12-2007, 08:50 PM
Ghoste I agree with you, it's really expensive, and I know pugs get horrible. I have played my friends high lvl clr and I have one i'm leveling up. On his we had a bad Von's 1-4 run. In 3 alone there was at least 200kgp wasted on one group.

Pugs make it hard. So I use the LOS or SOL rule. You zerg and i can't see you/your blocked you die. Even on a bard (which people use as a clr at times I have that same rule) If you are gonna zerg don't expect me to heal ya. I'll do what I can when the party catches up. Even my rogue saves her rez scrolls (or other expensive resources) for the clr or friends.

I don't blame clerics who stay anon or only run guild runs, or limit it to people they like in guild or friends lists when it comes to playing their cleric. yeah repair bills/weapons get expensive. But every time a clr runs they use up a ton resources more than just sp.

Cheg
07-13-2007, 03:55 PM
Kaldaka quite possibly sounds like the worst tank ever. Especially if he's *****ing clerics need MORE resources. Wonder where the Cleric wasted all his SP... :)

KoboldKiller
07-13-2007, 04:48 PM
If you look at class descriptions and classic roles it is the Clerics "role" to be the healer and buffer. Having said that it is not acceptable to assume that you can run a quest without the ability to help yourself. Don't think that it's the Clerics job to provide you with everything you want during the quest. When I run with my Pali I normally use Bless, when my Ranger is higher I will use Barkskin and others that are available. As far as the Cleric being left behind while MOBs break through I have seen this many times as well as most melee types not coming to thier aid. I do not play this way. I stay as close to the healers as possible to try and protect them, afterall if they're dead who's going to heal you do to you not feeling that you should have to do this yourself. I have yet to play a Cleric in DDO but in PnP I have. It may have just been the groups I played in but it seems the mentality toward Clerics was different in PnP than in DDO. You should always be as self sufficient as possible because you never know when you might be the last one standing.

Xyfiel
07-13-2007, 08:58 PM
Some people play without clerics, they aren't needed in any quest in the game...

Aranticus
07-14-2007, 01:03 AM
Some people play without clerics, they aren't needed in any quest in the game...

yeap its possible to run quests w/o a cleric but if anyone is going to need one (like Kaldaka) then treat him/her nice.... then again, if anyone need any class, treat that player nice.... this is basic civility which Kaldaka lacks

Cowdenicus
07-14-2007, 10:55 PM
Funny that my fighter can use CSW wands on a roll of a 2.

Hmmm.

Oh and I also have a CLERIC.

narizue
07-16-2007, 02:44 PM
Ok lets talk about spending money for tanks . . .
Lets see . . . about 2 million Plat each for Vorpal, Disrupter, Banisher, Smiter and Paralyzer . . .
NONE of which a cleric needs to buy, all he needs to buy are some wands and scrolls . . . THERE IS NO COMPARISON HERE.
(realize I used the word NEED there, if he wants to that's his prerogative, but a waste of money IMO)

Of course my tank has clickies and potions FOR EMERGENCY USE, but its the cleric's JOB to have the wands for use in the party. SO TO ALL YOU CLERICS OUT THERE QUIT B*TCHING ABOUT USING YOUR SPELL POINTS AND BUY SOME WANDS.


Quick life lesson for the OP. I have 6 characters at 14th level. A bard, a ranger, a paladin, a wizard, a fighter and a cleric. Guess who makes money by questing on virtually any quest? Everyone but the cleric. The best I normally hope for is that my cleric will break even.

I agree that having the best tools to do the job are expensive for a tank. But they are also expensive for a cleric. And in some cases a heck of a lot less common. I see P5 items by the score on the AH. Seldom if ever see a Sup Potency VII. And when I do, it runs higher than any of the P5, even an awesome config like a smiting or banishing rapier or scimitar.

Coming to the party prepared maximizes the party's chances of success in a quest. If you can save your cleric's sp but using a clickie/pot/wearing a cloak/whatever, then those SP are available when things turn south. Beyond that 1 cleric typically has to look after 5 other players. While I am looking after your booboo which could be taken care of with a pot or clickie, mr. squishie mage could be dying. Generally speaking there is only one of him in a party, and 3 of you, so simply put cupcake suck it up and fix your own booboo.

bigj1608
07-17-2007, 01:00 PM
Kaldaka needs to get Destructed.. Honestly, Kaldaka, if you read this: most clerics are gonna buy a wand of remove fear, blindness, poison neutralization, curse, and disease.. even further, for when they run out of spellpoints, ccw/csw/cmw wands and heal scrolls..

YOU CAN BUY POTIONS JUST AS WELL AS ANY CLERIC CAN BUY WANDS

all of those weapons aforementioned in your comments are NEVER necessary.. and actually, my cleric does carry a vorpal, a banisher, a smiter, a disruptor, and a good dps weapon for when it can be used.. some clerics can help a party much more than by sitting in the back.. honestly, i find myself in the front more than anything, either destructing or running everything through a blade barrier.. dont be such a selfish prick man.. i would never group with any of your characters, just because of your attitude.. you can buy potions just as well as that cleric can.. try it?

Kaldaka
07-17-2007, 02:59 PM
Kaldaka needs to get Destructed.. Honestly, Kaldaka, if you read this: most clerics are gonna buy a wand of remove fear, blindness, poison neutralization, curse, and disease.. even further, for when they run out of spellpoints, ccw/csw/cmw wands and heal scrolls..

YOU CAN BUY POTIONS JUST AS WELL AS ANY CLERIC CAN BUY WANDS

all of those weapons aforementioned in your comments are NEVER necessary.. and actually, my cleric does carry a vorpal, a banisher, a smiter, a disruptor, and a good dps weapon for when it can be used.. some clerics can help a party much more than by sitting in the back.. honestly, i find myself in the front more than anything, either destructing or running everything through a blade barrier.. dont be such a selfish prick man.. i would never group with any of your characters, just because of your attitude.. you can buy potions just as well as that cleric can.. try it?

You guys are right, I was wrong, I do see where you are coming from.

Since the original author of this post was complaining about using SP for disease/curse/etc. I was trying to give an alternative and admit I got pretty heated in my postings to say the least.

Just so you know I do give wands/plat to the cleric in a pug and guild group. Lets just say I was tired of PUG clerics using their SP for those things which a wand could take care of. An of course it costs money to be a cleric. Remember, this entire thread is titled, SAVE YOUR HEALER'S SPELL POINTS. I was trying to help the cleric understand that he can buy (or ask the group for some help with the cost) stuff that will save his spell points because he didn't mention this in his original post at all.

I definitely have to say, based on the many posts on this thread, I would not recommend being a cleric if you don't wanna spend the money.

Aranticus
07-18-2007, 09:10 AM
You guys are right, I was wrong, I do see where you are coming from.

Since the original author of this post was complaining about using SP for disease/curse/etc. I was trying to give an alternative and admit I got pretty heated in my postings to say the least.

Just so you know I do give wands/plat to the cleric in a pug and guild group. Lets just say I was tired of PUG clerics using their SP for those things which a wand could take care of. An of course it costs money to be a cleric. Remember, this entire thread is titled, SAVE YOUR HEALER'S SPELL POINTS. I was trying to help the cleric understand that he can buy (or ask the group for some help with the cost) stuff that will save his spell points because he didn't mention this in his original post at all.

I definitely have to say, based on the many posts on this thread, I would not recommend being a cleric if you don't wanna spend the money.

a helping message will often get across much better if its polite and not like


Why are you complaining about using SP for these minute things such as disease, curse, restore, etc.? As a cleric it is your JOB to buy wands for such spells and to not use your SPs for them. Ever heard of a scroll of Heal or Raise Dead? if not, go to house J and buy a lot of them. You have obviously been on for a long time (join date for you is June 2006), so don't tell me you don't have the plat for it. Why should a tank waste about 12 or more (resist energies takes 5 slots) inventory slots to carry pots of stuff that you could carry wands for. My tank has more than a full inventory sheet of weapons, I doubt your cleric does.

in your 1st post nothing was mentioned abt chipping in to help. mind you i was blowing wands today in gwylan hard as a L5 clr. each and every wand i have was thrown in the mix but i did not mind the cost. why? coz the others chipped in in any way they could. your post was "narrow" in pov as it only ranted abt how the cleric should buy everything to support the group.

now there is a player in riedra who absolutely does not carry any pot. from a clr i knew, it was told to me that he screamed for lesser restore and over the loudness of the others chatting, he couldnt hear n thus did not cast it. that player got upset and left the group midway in the quest. this would never have happened to me. i'd use my clickies 1st. if i run out then i'll politely ask. if i aint recieve anything, i'll drink a pot. that said, i'd also pp the cleric if i suck sp. more often than not, they refuse my donation. not becoz they dun need, but they know that i run a cost as high as them as i chug huge amts of pots. the hp bar is mine, i bear the responsibility not the cleric. only in the frantic times of battle, i hand it partially to them to keep me alive. i'd only have a peace of mind and fight if i know they have the sp.....

Boldrin
07-18-2007, 10:07 AM
I'm also a Riedran and know the player discussed. I have a lvl 9 cler, a lvl 14 UMD rogue build and lvl 14 ftr. I am constantly using potions on my fighter. Lesser restore, cure serious, remove curse, remove disease, etc. I use about 10-12 slots for potions. Have 2 full pages of weapons, 7 cloaks, and various other things like clickies that take up backpack space. The only hinderance this gives me is that I have to sell after every quest. To me this isn't a big deal compared to being somewhat self sufficient as a fighter. I do rely on my cleric to keep me healed, but other than that I try to take care of it myself( Its much easier for them to cast a 300-400 point heal on me than it is for me to drink 20 potions to get my health back to full). The only time I ask for the other things is when I'm raged(got the madstone boots and love everything about them , except the fact that it won't allow me to drink certain pots). I do agree that a cleric should keep wands or scrolls of all these things on hand, and use his SP for healing, I know my cleric does :).

Flamegaze
07-26-2007, 04:51 PM
I carry pots and wands on my cleric. I feel that spell points should be saved for the heat of battle for the most part. I carry a stack of csw pots that I use to heal myself in battle. It does not affect the timers I need keep the rest of the group healed.

I also have a respectable collection of clickes for the removale of effects. Why waste spell points or charges on wands. ;) This called being a responceable player. If you do not look out for yourself you shouldn't expect others to do so for you.

Because not only are the zerging tanks out there. There are flerics gallore. I have had the misfortune to run in Pugs with a cleric and cleric/fighter both of whom used their SPs to heal themselves and no one else. :eek: So if you do much pugging you should always have the emercency situation covered, because "You never know what your going to get."

Got it Forrest

Skirmish
01-21-2008, 05:40 PM
Wow! Apparently my regular party and most of the PUGs I've run with have all been doing it wrong by the opinion of most of the early posts here. Personally, when I run my cleric with my buddy Bick (a wiz), he buffs out the entire party with greater resists, stoneskin, blur, etc while I throw out the protections/mass buffs that I can to the party as well as whatever is needed while holding back the majority of my SP for healing/commanding/whatever. As soon as Bick is done buffing the full party (as needed) I slap him with most, if not all, of my 15 DVs.(DV-III)

Once we're up and running I tend to run almost exclusively healer/crowd control as it keeps me from having to heal the party as much if I help toss a few greater commands, sonic burst, etc. I use my mana for healing during heavy combat and wands to help top off the party during light combat and between fights. I normally have higher healing results from the wands so it leaves the party their pots for in case they get into trouble if I am saving someone else during a fight or pick up random aggro. Unless I go for glory and start tossing a large number of attack spells I normally have no problem making it from shrine to shrine with at least some mana left.

When running as Skirm, I normally run (again) with my friend Bick so we worked out that I'm his aggro-bait and he's my mechanic. We let the cleric know at the beginning of the run that unless the situation is dire, don't worry about healing my WF butt. I carry a stack of barkskin, remove curse, and remove paralysis and I have some lovely clickies with remove fear, extra hastes, greater heroism(and regular heroism), as well as Docents and Cloaks of Greater resists for everything but Sonic so far, and I have a cloak of improved sonic for now until I find a greater. And, of course, I never go anywhere without at least a stack of 90-100 repair serious pots. I run sword-and-board as best I can to keep my AC in the 40's so that I don't take too much damage and swap to my two-handers or two-weapon fighting as necessary when fighting to keep aggro off the cleric and my mechanic and his dozen or more firewalls as best I can. (normally I swap to twin weapons when I need twin smiters to get the kill faster or in the case of the 2-handers, I only have a 2-handed greater dragon bane and until last week, a 2-handed paralyzer)

We've rarely had any major issue with most of the cleric's we've pug'd with save the usual random issues:
1. PUG lvl 14 cleric lets the lvl 10 cleric(me) do all the healing/capping off and then uses his points solely for himself/kills.
2. PUG cleric (any level) that has decided his/her DV's are far to important to waste on the caster that buffed everyone and is beating the fighter by 40-80+ kills due to maximized/enhanced/extended/item-boosted firewalls that we ran everything through and watched burn. (or the alternate fact that the caster has been constantly flesh-to-stone'ing the biggest and badest of the enemies so that we had an easier time fighting and took far less damage than we would have otherwise)
3. The PUG stereotypical Battle Cleric (note: I refer to the BAD Battle Cleric, not the guys who can balance being a fighter with helping keep the party alive as needed) that hordes his mana for his self-healing/attack spells as he has to stay standing to keep up with the fighter and wizard in kills as he zergs his way through the mission. (ANY mission)
4. PUG cleric that decides he isn't going to touch the WF, no matter how close he is to death after the wiz was taken out of action or went line-dead for a few min. Even if the WF has Healer's Friend III and is the only thing between the cleric and a beholder/dragon/other big nasty that will chew up the cleric and spit him out like so much hamburger meat through a grinder.
5. PUG cleric that is given 4 or more cure serious wands and uses them pretty much on himself and his guild mate that joined the party later and leaves the rest of the party to hang unless it will save him from something nasty. (also typically the same type that will spend his entire mana before ever touching the wands)
6. The cleric that DEMANDS the party buy him scrolls/wands/pots he needs before he'll bother being of any use to the party. (normally booted from party the before he even makes the mission door once that's said, or booted as soon as the mission is finished and we're out of the dungeon if he's already in.)

That being said, 80% or more of the clerics I've pugged with as any of my toons have been awesome and a benefit to the party. And, in most cases, the party has been generous in helping out with replacing wands/scrolls used during the mission or at least tossed the cleric some cash to help.

tolana
01-21-2008, 05:46 PM
Why are you complaining about using SP for these minute things such as disease, curse, restore, etc.? As a cleric it is your JOB to buy wands for such spells and to not use your SPs for them. Ever heard of a scroll of Heal or Raise Dead? if not, go to house J and buy a lot of them. You have obviously been on for a long time (join date for you is June 2006), so don't tell me you don't have the plat for it. Why should a tank waste about 12 or more (resist energies takes 5 slots) inventory slots to carry pots of stuff that you could carry wands for. My tank has more than a full inventory sheet of weapons, I doubt your cleric does.

i wish i knew who you alts were so i could leave you to die.
no heals buffs or help for you

WeaselKing
01-21-2008, 05:53 PM
Know what's a good laugh? Taking a warforged character and purposely letting a mummy hit you until you get mummy's curse to make you that much harder to heal.

/e cackles fiendishly.

Yeah I always get annoyed when the cleric "fixes me". I'm happier when cure doesn't work. :)

Kerr
01-22-2008, 11:54 AM
Why are you complaining about using SP for these minute things such as disease, curse, restore, etc.? As a cleric it is your JOB to buy wands for such spells and to not use your SPs for them. Ever heard of a scroll of Heal or Raise Dead? if not, go to house J and buy a lot of them. You have obviously been on for a long time (join date for you is June 2006), so don't tell me you don't have the plat for it. Why should a tank waste about 12 or more (resist energies takes 5 slots) inventory slots to carry pots of stuff that you could carry wands for. My tank has more than a full inventory sheet of weapons, I doubt your cleric does.

I would so leave your stone in the worst possible place and never res you.

knight775042002
01-22-2008, 03:59 PM
I have a toon that is a cleric and it does cost alot to be a cleric. If you are doing madestone on elite and want to keep the party going you are going to spend about 60K gp to 100K gp. Some quest just take more out of a cleric. some quest does cost a lot but I dont mind spending the pp or gp if it is a good party.
Tip 1 use DV heals and just use wands to top people off or out of sp. In a big battel I will hurry up and hit everyone with a DV heal this will ease the healing duties a little. Using DV heals will save a lot of sp. To all if not in dange let the DV heal do its work.
Tip 2 know what spell to use. If a tank have half HP bar left I am going to use Heal but if a wiz have half hp bar left I am going to use ccw or csw.
Tip 3 if you are not a tank and dont wear much armor why are you up with the tanks? Stay back I know you want to help and fight but if I (clerics) have to keep healing you or raise you, you are not doing the party any good. I know I will get into a fight but I know when to get in and when to get out. If there is a big fight coming up I will stay back and heal.
Tip 4 WF are great in a party but they do not heal easy wiz you can do your part by caring some repair wands, for clerics DV heals is the best
Tip 5 Know where you cleric is at, at all times. If you are low in HP and not getting healed it is because the cleric cant get to you, cant see you, or too far away. You also have to remember that a cleric is watching hp bars and trying to stay out of the way. If you find your self low on HP or you know you are in a area where the cleric cant get to you time to use some healing pots.
Tip 6 Clerics I know you would like to put some boom down and there is a time for that mostly in small fights/battels. In a big fight dont use any boom spells. I know it is hard sometimes my Blade Barrier and Cometfall can do 255++ points of damage but that is going to make mobs come after you. It sounds so simple but when I use my fighter I see clerics think they are wiz. The difference is when a wiz go down you can raise them when a cleric goes down the party is f***!!
Tip 7 When in a fight use Resurrection and not raise dead (for the higher level cleric). I know it use more sp but the person that you Resurrection will have half of their hp back. To all when a cleric cast raise dead try to get a safe spot ASAP most clerics I know is waiting to cast heal on you as soon as you raise up.

Being a cleric you will never have alot of pp or gp or at least I dont. At most I have is 200Kgp. Most of my money gose to the quest meaning wands, scrolls, etc. I dont want my tanks or anyone use healing pots as long as I have sp or if I cant get to you quick enough.
There is one thing I dislike is when someone tells you you should carry more raise dead scrolls, more heal, or wands. Hey I buy as much as I can, if you want me to carry more how about sending some pp or gp my way. Better yet buy what you think I need or should carry and I am more then happen to give what I dont use back to you at the end of the quest. I know most clerics out there feel the same way.

I know I am not the best cleric out there but I try.

You all know me as Upjohnii

knight775042002
01-22-2008, 04:40 PM
to Kaldaka and Kaldaka type of players.
You think weapon are costly? You buy a sword once but a wands and scrolls you have to buy over and over. Some quest cost more then others.
You have 100 spaces in your pack you telling me that you use 95 spaces for weapons? My fighter have 10 weapons, 10 spots for pots, 2 red bags, 2 blue bags, 10 spots for other collectables, and 10 spots for miss. that is 42 spots taken. That is 58 spots left!!!! Now you might carry more weapons they I carry but you still should have a lot of space left.
Paying 2mil for a weapon you just got taken.
You dont think clerics need to buy armor? or weapons? they are you second fighters (back up) and if you want them to be able to take a hit they need good armor.(all this have a cost too) A cleric need to be able to run in and out of mobs if two hits kill them because they are lightly armored then they are no use to the party. Before you say it, why do a cleric need to run in and out of mobs it is because they are trying to get to you to save you sorry A**!!!
A good cleric with a good party you should not have to use to many heal pots. If you are on of those tanks that go running off then it is time to carry pots and lot of them. I dont want my cleric getting killed because you ran off and need healing.

Eregion2
01-22-2008, 05:31 PM
4. PUG cleric that decides he isn't going to touch the WF, no matter how close he is to death after the wiz was taken out of action or went line-dead for a few min. Even if the WF has Healer's Friend III and is the only thing between the cleric and a beholder/dragon/other big nasty that will chew up the cleric and spit him out like so much hamburger meat through a grinder.I was amazed when I found out wizards could use repair spells; I could count the number of times I've ever seen them used on one hand even if I didn't have any fingers.