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Gidden
07-04-2007, 07:04 PM
I have been stuck at level 10 for quite some time. While I will soon hit 11 (one or two more nights) I think the Dev's should reconsider what they consider powerleveling.
Most of my guild is capped with almost every main above 13. If I join any group with even 1 level 14 character I take a 50% xp hit. This is huge. I've done some quests where I was highest in the kill counts, and still took a 50% hit to xp. Add in that so many of these quests are lower level then 14 and I'm taking another hit.
Look through the groups LFM and you'll see the same. One 14th lvl character makes it so a level 10 can't join.
Is there any hope that the level difference necessary to be called powerleveling will be increased, or that the penalty could be incremental based on the difference between your level and the average level?
Currently, a group of 5 tenth levels and 1 fourteenth level is treated the same as a group of 5 fourteenth levels and a 1 first level and we can all agree that these are two very different groups.

Gidden

Lorien_the_First_One
07-04-2007, 09:03 PM
I have been stuck at level 10 for quite some time. While I will soon hit 11 (one or two more nights) I think the Dev's should reconsider what they consider powerleveling.
Most of my guild is capped with almost every main above 13. If I join any group with even 1 level 14 character I take a 50% xp hit. This is huge. I've done some quests where I was highest in the kill counts, and still took a 50% hit to xp. Add in that so many of these quests are lower level then 14 and I'm taking another hit.
Look through the groups LFM and you'll see the same. One 14th lvl character makes it so a level 10 can't join.
Is there any hope that the level difference necessary to be called powerleveling will be increased, or that the penalty could be incremental based on the difference between your level and the average level?
Currently, a group of 5 tenth levels and 1 fourteenth level is treated the same as a group of 5 fourteenth levels and a 1 first level and we can all agree that these are two very different groups.

Gidden


I think they should drop the current rules and look to the actual D&D rules for power levelling. You take the total number of levels in the party and give out experience proportionally. So if you are 20% lower then you get 20% less XP than the rest of the party. If you have a group of 5 L1s and a L20 (eventually) then the proportional rule gives each of the L1s 4% and the L20 gets 96% (ok, thats an extreme example to demonstrate the concept)

geoffhanna
07-04-2007, 09:28 PM
Look for PUGs that fit your level range better. If there are none, start one.

If that doesn't work either (very rare) I play another alt for awhile.

dormetheus
07-04-2007, 10:47 PM
I was in a Von5 group where we lost our second cleric. Before that, we were rolling along at a smooth pace. So we finally get another, get through the first switch set, then someone realizes that the new cleric is 14. The whole raid broke because of the experience hit. It was ridiculous and frustrating. Even if the lvl 14 left, the xp would still be ruined.

I suggest an incremental penalty as well. -10% for 5 level spread, -20 for six, -50 for seven, etc.

Ken_Dorak
07-05-2007, 09:23 AM
I was in a Von5 group where we lost our second cleric. Before that, we were rolling along at a smooth pace. So we finally get another, get through the first switch set, then someone realizes that the new cleric is 14. The whole raid broke because of the experience hit. It was ridiculous and frustrating. Even if the lvl 14 left, the xp would still be ruined.

I suggest an incremental penalty as well. -10% for 5 level spread, -20 for six, -50 for seven, etc.

I could see that as acceptable.

I feel the OP's pain, as I dealt with this issue with one character recently and now dealing with it on another.

But, I don't think I had nearly as hard a time with getting xp and levelling from 10 to 11 as I did in 6 to 9 ... wow, that was a struggle.

Gennerik
07-05-2007, 09:42 AM
Let's face it. A level 5 in a level 9 group isn't really all that effective. But a level 10 in a level 14 group has a much better chance of doing something constructive. The level spread is the same, but as you progress in levels, the level difference becomes much less of a problem.

Personally, I think that as you get into higher levels, the range before you get power-leveled should be increased. So a level 10 might only take a 25% hit with level 14s in the group, a level 9 would take 50%. But at lower levels, a level 5 would take a 50% hit with a level 9 in the group..

tihocan
07-05-2007, 09:56 AM
I've done some quests where I was highest in the kill counts, and still took a 50% hit to xp.
I hope that's not your best argument :p

I'm against changing the powerleveling system. I think a 3-level spread range is ideal. The system serves its purpose well I think.

The issue is more in the lack of characters running in the 8-10 range, and the huge XP in GH that attracts any L11+ there. I think the addition of outdoor areas that you can explore while setting up a group is a good idea to tackle the first issue, while the second one should be looked at some day...
What about getting more people to DDO too? ;)

tekn0mage
07-05-2007, 10:42 AM
Doing ALL the explorers, slayers and rares in the outdoor areas for levels 10 and below MIGHT get you 60k-75k xp, but that's not very much.

Half of that XP must be grabbed before you hit level 7 or you forfeit (Tangleroot, Cerulean Hills). The other half (Sorrowdusk and Ataraxia's) is barely enough to get you 2 rank points between 9 and 10.

I'm just not buying how easy some of you are making it sound.

The real issue is that the Powerlevel limitation needs to be adjusted. Levels 9 and 10 are the absolute worst right now. It took my character roughly 2 weeks to get to level 11.

"start up a PUG" or "go play another toon" are NOT answers to the powerlevel problem.

Initially the powerlevel penalty was to prevent level 10 players from walking level 6 or lower players through all the tough quests. The 4-levels-below always worked out because virtually half the characters online at the time were level 10, while the other half in various levels below that.

Now, you have a far less proportion of players at level 10. Half the players online are level 14, where the rest of the server are somewhere in between. With only around 20% of a server's population at or near 10, the player pool is far FAR less than when the power level first arrived.

My server has roughly 200-300 people on during peak times. With only 40-60 people online available to choose from in that level range, that's only a few parties even playing the game during PEAK times.

Now figure half of those people are in a guild and don't want to group with a PUG, we're talking some VERY slim pickings for a party. I don't even wanna think about OFF-peak times where there's less than 10 people online between levels 6 and 10. This is an actual account of what its like playing on my server (the second most populated server according to recent counts), so I don't think "just getting a PUG started" is a viable option, sorry, that's super-unrealistic.

The power level penalty needs to be re-worked. Just like many other things in the game. Don't get me started on the list of things Turbine has begun but then never re-visited.

OKCRandy1
07-05-2007, 10:44 AM
I hope that's not your best argument :p

I'm against changing the powerleveling system. I think a 3-level spread range is ideal. The system serves its purpose well I think.

The issue is more in the lack of characters running in the 8-10 range, and the huge XP in GH that attracts any L11+ there. I think the addition of outdoor areas that you can explore while setting up a group is a good idea to tackle the first issue, while the second one should be looked at some day...
What about getting more people to DDO too? ;)

/agree

I'm also against changing the system, the problem is not the power level exp hit, it's difficulty finding that questing in the 8-10 range. I just made 10 with my cleric and want to do GiantHold this weekend, but know I'll take to big a hit, would rather wait one more level. But knowing how hard 9 was, I'm sure 10 will be a grind. Hopefully I can get some desert quests together, they would be the ideal runs.

I know this sounds off topic, but if we solve the population problem, then the power leveling system is probably just fine as is. Hopefully, we'll see a boxed DDO paid expansion (with all the related buzz), more advertising (I flipped through Dragon Magazine and many pc gaming mags and saw not one advertisement for DDO), and a slow build through word of mouth about this great game all leading to greater server populations. We'll see.

Dariun
07-05-2007, 10:52 AM
I'm just not buying how easy some of you are making it sound.

The real issue is that the Powerlevel limitation needs to be adjusted. Levels 9 and 10 are the absolute worst right now. It took my character roughly 2 weeks to get to level 11.


I agree.

Been level 10 for at least 4 months now :eek:. Obviously, I don't play that character very much, but even then I've had many many sessions that result in either negative XP or 3,000-6,000 XP, which isn't very much for a lvl 10.

Meanwhile, I have a lvl 4 character that can easily solo quests to get 6k XP (which is proportionally much much more XP for him) in a single playing session.

Also, Cerulean Hills cuts off at lvl 4.

Geriant
07-05-2007, 11:24 AM
One thing to point out, there is no experience penalty for the explorer/slayer/rare encounter areas. While at level ten there are only three that can be done currently, we're getting the desert opened up as the same type of area. That effectively gives us four areas with a wider range than 'quest' areas for people to group up and get experience.

~G

Dwolf
07-05-2007, 11:41 AM
Part of the problem as well is how people are leveling their characters early. Everyone hits the higher level quests as soon as they can to go up as fast as they can to get to better loot as fast as they can. The problem is, you get the best xp for each quest when you do it while being within a level or two of the quest.

If you come back to a quest later - for favour - as a lot of these high level characters end up doing - you get just about nothing useful out of it. On top of it, you've plundered the xp out of quests that might have actually made an impact on raising you through the mid levels.

With my current incarnation of Dwolf, I tried to focus on completing the harbor on elite and the marketplace on hard before going off into the houses. I have two marketplace quests stuck on normal. Everything else is done on hard or elite. I'm ready to go to 7th level, but have stayed at 6th for now so that it's easier to find a group that'll want to run catecombs on elite, or to do tangleroot on normal the first time through. By the time I've gone through tangle on normal and hard, catecombs on elite, and the 4th to 6th level house quests on normal I should be close to hitting 8th and I wouldnt' have even touched the Stormcleave and Gwyllen's yet.

Does it change how easy it is to find parties for levels 8 to 11 - well no, but then you won't have to be stuck there as long, and you can always find groups to do some of the more fun and quests with the higher end loot. Then you can take your turn running other people's slightly lower level characters through stormcleave on hard or elite. You'll find no end of fodder that way.

The other benefit is that you wouldn't be stuck trying to go back to grab favor later. You'll have gotten all the low end favor stuff out of the way in order.

I have a cleric that's been stuck at 11 forever now, who's only got 970 favor and has all these level 4 to 10 quests never completed that he can't get much exp for now. I wish, in retrospect, that I'd done all those quests roughly in order. I'd probably be pushing level 13 instead, and be a lot closer to 1750 favor.

wraith87
07-05-2007, 12:24 PM
Levels 9-10 are no-mans land right now mostly because all the level 11 and ups are going into the Gianthold and doing all the high-level quests.

This was the same way it was when the cap was 12 and level 7-8 was the hardest spot to level.

It's just kinda gonna happen that the level right outside the spot you need to be is gonna be the hardest to level. If you change the penalty, then that'll just lower the level a bit. If you make it so 4 level difference can run together with little xp penalty, then I'd predict that levels 8 and 9 would become very difficult to level up (not that they aren't already :p ).

dmitri
07-05-2007, 12:38 PM
I think they should drop the current rules and look to the actual D&D rules for power levelling. You take the total number of levels in the party and give out experience proportionally. So if you are 20% lower then you get 20% less XP than the rest of the party. If you have a group of 5 L1s and a L20 (eventually) then the proportional rule gives each of the L1s 4% and the L20 gets 96% (ok, thats an extreme example to demonstrate the concept)

Actually, that is not at all how it works...

You take each encounter, and calculate CR for all monsters, traps, puzzles, RP, etc. Then you look at the character's level, and compare it to a chart in the DMG. That is the number of XP, divided by the number of players in the group.

Not difficult in the slightest - but the XP is actually better for lower levels in a group with higher level characters.

If you really need the page number, pm me and I'll dig it out of my DMG.

sigtrent
07-05-2007, 01:04 PM
Caps are caps. Change them and all that happens is the difficult spot changes down a level. <shrug>

Anyone 4 or more levels below the cap will have a harder time finding groups these days than those who are in the cap range.

You just have to muscle your way through there. I've managed it and all the people at cap managed it. Somehow I'm sure the OP will get there as well.

Gianthold is so full of XP that even at 50% its the fastest leveling in the game (outside levels 1-3)

MtnLion
07-05-2007, 04:25 PM
...
OFF-peak times where there's less than 10 people online between levels 6 and 10. This is an actual account of what its like playing on my server (the second most populated server according to recent counts), so I don't think "just getting a PUG started" is a viable option, sorry, that's super-unrealistic.
....

I think a more realistic way for you to start a group is not to look for level 6s to join you on a level 10+ quest (as implied here). If you cannot find a group doing something level appropriate for you with party distribution that is acceptable, you should start a group of your own, perhaps a level 8-12 quest and party appropriate. That would limit your XP hit, since you would not be on the borderline.

With my level 14s I always look to see if there are level 10s or lower in the group, and let them know of the hit they would take if I joined. In some cases they may not mind (favor comes to mind). In others, it is quite alright by me to look for another group. My sorcerer runs around grazing on landscape "slayer" quests while looking for a party.

Be fair to yourself and others, don't try to do quests that are inapprpriate for your level, even if they would yield a greater XP payoff. Don't look for level 6s to join your group, because they would take the same XP hit you complain about.

greystone306
07-05-2007, 04:39 PM
I've done some quests where I was highest in the kill counts, and still took a 50% hit to xp.
Gidden

So you managed to be the person to get the last swing in the most.. big deal..

tekn0mage
07-05-2007, 05:43 PM
I think a more realistic way for you to start a group is not to look for level 6s to join you on a level 10+ quest (as implied here). If you cannot find a group doing something level appropriate for you with party distribution that is acceptable, you should start a group of your own, perhaps a level 8-12 quest and party appropriate. That would limit your XP hit, since you would not be on the borderline.

With my level 14s I always look to see if there are level 10s or lower in the group, and let them know of the hit they would take if I joined. In some cases they may not mind (favor comes to mind). In others, it is quite alright by me to look for another group. My sorcerer runs around grazing on landscape "slayer" quests while looking for a party.

Be fair to yourself and others, don't try to do quests that are inapprpriate for your level, even if they would yield a greater XP payoff. Don't look for level 6s to join your group, because they would take the same XP hit you complain about.

Thankfully I belong to one of the greatest guilds on my server. My mates were doing a POP run one night and I tagged along to pick up the last 50k or so I needed to get to 11.

Now I'm almost 12 ;) life is good when you hit 11.

Gidden
07-06-2007, 06:34 PM
I hope that's not your best argument :p

I'm against changing the powerleveling system. I think a 3-level spread range is ideal. The system serves its purpose well I think.

The issue is more in the lack of characters running in the 8-10 range, and the huge XP in GH that attracts any L11+ there. I think the addition of outdoor areas that you can explore while setting up a group is a good idea to tackle the first issue, while the second one should be looked at some day...
What about getting more people to DDO too? ;)

As I wrote that I knew someone would mention the kill count problems. My main is a cleric, and I know the lack of value to the kill count. On the other hand, killing (or getting the last hit on) a plurality of the mobs does show that I did contribute and wasn't being powerleveled.

I agree that more quests and more people are a better solution, but I don't see either coming soon, and adjusting the powerlevel criteria to be based on an average, or increasing the range at higher levels seems like a fair repair until the other two problem are addressed.

Gidden

Belfalcon
07-08-2007, 09:39 AM
i dont fine lvl 8-10 to be all that ruff im just spam von1-4
and some of the other big xps runs but im a cleric and seem to find partys