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Zuran
07-02-2007, 10:28 PM
...is it just an abandoned idea or does Turbine ever planned to fix it?

Rokurgepta
07-02-2007, 10:48 PM
...is it just an abandoned idea or does Turbine ever planned to fix it?

I am sure they plan to revisit it one day, but right now they have bigger problems and things to work on.

Varis
07-02-2007, 10:53 PM
do YOU see the leaderboard anywhere? Nope, it's gone.

They basically took pvp out the back and shot it in the head.

At least they are "kinda" upfront about it and took the leaderboards off instead of telling us they will get it running asap.

Zuran
07-02-2007, 11:43 PM
do YOU see the leaderboard anywhere? Nope, it's gone.

They basically took pvp out the back and shot it in the head.

At least they are "kinda" upfront about it and took the leaderboards off instead of telling us they will get it running asap.

NO KIDDING!!! They left the 'please wait patiently while we try and fix this' up for months. apparently they have decided to go w/ the 'lets just toss it out and see if anyone notices' route. i would really like to see the pvp system implemented to somehow make it worth while.

Brianius
07-02-2007, 11:46 PM
i just want names off in pvp and sneaking characters to sneak then it will be fixed enough for me.

Medic11
07-02-2007, 11:53 PM
i know what PvP these days is....meet up in the wayward and beat the snot out of each other. what was the PvP system/Leaderboard all about??? I see it mentioned here and there but must have started playing after its downfall.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-03-2007, 12:18 AM
PVP is useful to test out a new weapon.

PVP is useful to ... um.. um... ya nothing else really fits into the D&D mold.

There are much much much better things for devs to spend time on

Skaves
07-03-2007, 11:23 AM
PVP is useful to test out a new weapon.

PVP is useful to ... um.. um... ya nothing else really fits into the D&D mold.

There are much much much better things for devs to spend time on

PVP is useful to test out new spells.

Mad_Bombardier
07-03-2007, 11:28 AM
PVP is useful to test out new spells.Yeah, for the 30% of spells that are able to be cast in PvP/Tavern Brawl, sure. :rolleyes:

(Yes, that is a totally made up number. I was being facetious. Read a book!)

Lebrac
07-03-2007, 11:29 AM
I would LOVE to someday see cross server PVP... because PVPing the same people all the time does get a little old at times. and it would be great fun to have to adapt to a new style of PVP from others since most people on the server i play on PVP alot alike.

A tourny to take the top say 5 or 10 people from Melle type classes and caster type classes from each server and 100% copy there char's to risia then have the finals played there would be a great way to do this.

Zuran
07-04-2007, 11:45 PM
i think PvP would be a great thing for times, like now, when the content is lacking. honestly i am really bored w/ the game lately. its not that i don't like the game, it is just that I'm tired of running the same thing over and over again. PvP would fix this, since we could have matches against a consistently different opponent. Give us a way to combat the boredom; besides waiting for half a year to see something new

Hendrik
07-05-2007, 07:27 AM
What's 'broken' about PvP?

Akiira69
07-05-2007, 08:06 AM
do YOU see the leaderboard anywhere? Nope, it's gone.

They basically took pvp out the back and shot it in the head.

At least they are "kinda" upfront about it and took the leaderboards off instead of telling us they will get it running asap.
and imvho that was the best thing to do. PvP is not part of any AD&D module that I am aware of and I have played Dungeons and Dragons for the past 20 years(yes that is sence 1987 for those of you trying to do the math, and yes I am that old please do not make a big deal of it =P). PvP may be a big part of MMORPG's but for one based on a game as old as Dungeon's and Dragon's I can see why Turbine would rather playcate the die hard D&D Gamers than people who just want to go around ganking people just because they can.

Zuran
07-05-2007, 11:00 AM
and imvho that was the best thing to do. PvP is not part of any AD&D module that I am aware of and I have played Dungeons and Dragons for the past 20 years(yes that is sence 1987 for those of you trying to do the math, and yes I am that old please do not make a big deal of it =P). PvP may be a big part of MMORPG's but for one based on a game as old as Dungeon's and Dragon's I can see why Turbine would rather playcate the die hard D&D Gamers than people who just want to go around ganking people just because they can.

just curious; you have played DnD for 20yrs and have never had any PvP? I have played for over 6yrs and every campaign I have been in has had a mage who wants to secretly dominate the party, or a greedy rogue, or a fighter that wants to prove his strength over another melee, or a city tournament in which players will have to face off against eachother, etc. as far as being a part of any set module issued, well i don't see mages doing 2000 points of damage at lvl14 there either. DDO is not DnD. And in this game PvP should not be abandonned.

Gimpster
07-05-2007, 11:43 AM
What's 'broken' about PvP?
That the multiple glaringly obvious shortcomings present since it's release have no been fixed.

I mean, have you tried to get into a simple 1v1 duel with another character? How hard is that?

Zuran
07-05-2007, 05:02 PM
That the multiple glaringly obvious shortcomings present since it's release have no been fixed.

I mean, have you tried to get into a simple 1v1 duel with another character? How hard is that?

exactly! has anyone heard of whether or not they intend to fix PvP or are they just sticking w/ the 'lets sweep this under the rug' method?

Shecky
07-05-2007, 05:24 PM
What's 'broken' about PvP?

Its very concept.

Ken_Dorak
07-05-2007, 05:35 PM
It's absolutely worthless to even bother putting PvP into a game like DDO.

The reasoning behind it, is that in this game you have PCs with very powerful "to hit" weapons and low hit point counts. This is due to high hit point counts on monsters to increase quest difficulty.

Every PvP match I've seen looks like this:

__________________________

PC #1 and PC #2 enter the PvP pit.

One of them hits the other with a paralyzer or whatever, to stop them dead in their tracks.

Two hits later, a ghost is running back to the tavern to rez.

__________________________


PvP isn't broken in DDO. It's simply pointless as the rest of the game is designed for other purposes and implementing the ability for PCs to dual is pointless and will always be unmatched. To change PvP, you'd have to change the entire mechanic of the game and that - my friends - will never happen.

You like PvP? Play something else. DDO is for cooperative play. It was created that way and will always be built around that theory. Period.

Akiira69
07-05-2007, 08:42 PM
just curious; you have played DnD for 20yrs and have never had any PvP? I have played for over 6yrs and every campaign I have been in has had a mage who wants to secretly dominate the party, or a greedy rogue, or a fighter that wants to prove his strength over another melee, or a city tournament in which players will have to face off against eachother, etc. as far as being a part of any set module issued, well i don't see mages doing 2000 points of damage at lvl14 there either. DDO is not DnD. And in this game PvP should not be abandonned.
Either you need your eyes checked or you miss read my statement. I never said I never heard of PvP in AD&D. I said it was not a main part of the AD&D modules. In all the AD&D I've played PvP has ALWAYS been at the "DUNGEON MASTERS"(you know the guy who tells you how your adventure is doing?) discession. And of all the times I've been DM I never saw the point of adding a childish thing like PvP into my campeign. It's not needed. And DDO IS D&D. You see the first 2 letters in DDO? it stands for Dungeons & Dragons. Plus the Dev's said during pre-beta and all 3 stages of beta that they were going to stick to the core rules of D&D and when someone can point to a core D&D book that explains PvP for the Pen and Paper game. I think that it should be left out of the MMO version as well.

Raithe
07-05-2007, 10:52 PM
Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.

Uska
07-06-2007, 12:26 AM
UMM who cares never wanted it or saw a need for it anyways done pvp in a game designed for it had fun didnt want to see it here never really saw dnd as a pnp game in my 30+ years of playing I could proably count on one hand the number of times I was involved in pvp and still have fingers left over. We played heros as thats how we saw the game and how E.G.G. intended it.

Uska
07-06-2007, 12:28 AM
Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.

Umm your wrong and accidently miscalculating a fireball isnt pvp nor is accidently shooting a party member with an arrow while they are in the middle of melee.

TechNoFear
07-06-2007, 12:38 AM
Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

DM's are the PnP equivilent of the Environment.

Player/s v DM == PvE
Player/s v DM != PvP

I think if there was the actual in game demand for PvP it would get more attention.



Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.

I am sorry but I think you just made a sillier statement.....

Ken_Dorak
07-06-2007, 09:52 AM
Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.



Bah.

Point is, DDO is not a PvP game. While it has it's little niche area for meatheads to poke eachother with a stick, it's not in the fundamentals of how they built the game and honestly - it was just added to shut people up in the first place.

"No PvP!!!?!?!?!!111oneone Thez g4m3 iz teh suXX0r!!!!111oneone"

Zuran
07-06-2007, 01:20 PM
if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place. if they were doing it to 'just stop people from complaining' well then they have failed. i am not suggesting that they revamp the game and make PvP worldwide. i am merely saying that they should fix the system they have already placed in game, and add some rewards to playing it; as opposed to simply ignoring it. this way those who hate PvP could play the game never having to deal w/ it, and those who love it can enjoy it and gain some reward from it. why not toss some xp to the victors of each round, and some items to the top players?? PvP'ers could gain nice items from the arena, and dungeon crawlers would continue to pull their phat lewts from chests... and i am sure the majority would enjoy a bit of both.

Braddock_Tharmwell
07-06-2007, 01:58 PM
if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place. if they were doing it to 'just stop people from complaining' well then they have failed. i am not suggesting that they revamp the game and make PvP worldwide. i am merely saying that they should fix the system they have already placed in game, and add some rewards to playing it; as opposed to simply ignoring it. this way those who hate PvP could play the game never having to deal w/ it, and those who love it can enjoy it and gain some reward from it. why not toss some xp to the victors of each round, and some items to the top players?? PvP'ers could gain nice items from the arena, and dungeon crawlers would continue to pull their phat lewts from chests... and i am sure the majority would enjoy a bit of both.

"Holy large can of Worms there!"

And how would you propose that said Rewards for the 2 seperate areas be determined? How much XP would the loser get exactly?

Ken_Dorak
07-06-2007, 03:02 PM
if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place. if they were doing it to 'just stop people from complaining' well then they have failed. i am not suggesting that they revamp the game and make PvP worldwide. i am merely saying that they should fix the system they have already placed in game, and add some rewards to playing it; as opposed to simply ignoring it. this way those who hate PvP could play the game never having to deal w/ it, and those who love it can enjoy it and gain some reward from it. why not toss some xp to the victors of each round, and some items to the top players?? PvP'ers could gain nice items from the arena, and dungeon crawlers would continue to pull their phat lewts from chests... and i am sure the majority would enjoy a bit of both.

Why, that's ingenious.

Let's take a game that is based upon questing and cooperative play and delve out experience points and loot to guys who want to defeat the purpose of the game (and in a sense, Dungeons & Dragons all together) and make them happy for the sake of happiness.

Seriously, this game was NOT designed for PvP. The current PvP sucks and for a good reason - the way the game is designed is for player characters to join up in groups and kill mobs of bad guys. We have low hit points, high attack and damage weapons (and spells) and they work well in one area - questing. There is absolutely no realistic way to make Player vs. Player combat a realistic system in DDO. With real-time combat and the lack of an initiative roll, there is no way for two equally matched characters to have an honest dual. Two level 14 fighters dual wielding a paralyzer and a vorpal that are the exact same uber build with the exact same amount of hit points, identical armor, etc. would still be unbalanced no matter what "l33t c00ln3ss" they added for PvP. Whoever got the first critical hit would either paralyze their opponent and then vorpal him, or vorpal him immediately. It's a "whoever by chance hits whom first" kind of thing.

I'm not debunking PvP, because it has it's roll in some games. Frankly, I'm saying that DDO doesn't need PvP and if you want PvP in DDO, you should be thankful for what you have. The game was designed to NOT have PvP to begin with, but due to public outcry (from both players and critics) it was added and nobody has been happy with it since. No (not happy word for "poo poo")? PvP in DDO isn't what you hoped for? It shouldn't be. Again, the game's mechanics were never designed for PvP.

To change PvP to be on equal grounds for both players would either break the current game (yeah, that's worth it) or you'd be forced to build an entirely seperate mechanic to determine how to balance PvP for those contests. Either way, it's a big time sink for so few people who would actually use it.

There are enough people on these forums who gripe about people wanting stuff added like the ability to see their cloaks and boots on their character, and call it fluff and not worthy of developer time. I say then, that adding xp rewards and "neat-a-riffic" items specially for PvP players falls under the same category, if not a lower and more worthless one.

Why?

Probably half the population would keep their showcloak and showboots on. Adding more junk to a broke system that people won't even use is truly, honestly wasting developer time and Turbine's money.


In summary, let me state this again:

If you like PvP, go play a PvP game. If you like DDO, then play DDO.

It really is that simple.

Sheesh.

Raithe
07-06-2007, 04:57 PM
DM's are the PnP equivilent of the Environment.


Yes they are. They are also the PnP equivalent of an opposing player. The problem with D&D is that there really is no difference between PvE and PvP - you simply can't make the distinction the same way you can in a MUD, MMO, or other computer game.

So saying that D&D is not about "PvP" becomes even sillier, because not only is it untrue if you logically apply the term, there is really no reason to even try to apply the term.

The bottom line is that D&D is all about player interaction, something that simple logic programming just can't replicate. If you want a D&D MMO to succeed, player interaction should be emphasized, not relegated to cooperative combat maneuvering, healing, buffing, and griefing.

Newtons_Apple
07-06-2007, 05:11 PM
It's absolutely worthless to even bother putting PvP into a game like DDO.

The reasoning behind it, is that in this game you have PCs with very powerful "to hit" weapons and low hit point counts. This is due to high hit point counts on monsters to increase quest difficulty.

Every PvP match I've seen looks like this:

__________________________

PC #1 and PC #2 enter the PvP pit.

One of them hits the other with a paralyzer or whatever, to stop them dead in their tracks.

Two hits later, a ghost is running back to the tavern to rez.

__________________________


PvP isn't broken in DDO. It's simply pointless as the rest of the game is designed for other purposes and implementing the ability for PCs to dual is pointless and will always be unmatched. To change PvP, you'd have to change the entire mechanic of the game and that - my friends - will never happen.

You like PvP? Play something else. DDO is for cooperative play. It was created that way and will always be built around that theory. Period.


Well said my well saying friend.

Hendrik
07-06-2007, 05:54 PM
That the multiple glaringly obvious shortcomings present since it's release have no been fixed.

I mean, have you tried to get into a simple 1v1 duel with another character? How hard is that?

Yea, I have. Pretty easy to accomplish as well.

Hendrik
07-06-2007, 05:55 PM
if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place. if they were doing it to 'just stop people from complaining' well then they have failed. i am not suggesting that they revamp the game and make PvP worldwide. i am merely saying that they should fix the system they have already placed in game, and add some rewards to playing it; as opposed to simply ignoring it. this way those who hate PvP could play the game never having to deal w/ it, and those who love it can enjoy it and gain some reward from it. why not toss some xp to the victors of each round, and some items to the top players?? PvP'ers could gain nice items from the arena, and dungeon crawlers would continue to pull their phat lewts from chests... and i am sure the majority would enjoy a bit of both.

Never going to happen in DDO.

sigtrent
07-06-2007, 06:54 PM
I just want a better match making system, one that spans all the taverns and lets you assign teams manualy etc..

The PvP system itself is fine. It isn't balanced but so long as you check your ego at the door, its pretty fun. Anyone can be killed with the right attack and there are all kinds of different strategies to use.

I like the tavern fighting for the occasional ruckus, but the arenas are near useless due to the matching system. The fiew times we got it to work it was fun, but it was difficult and unintuitive and you pretty much have to bring your own crew to make it work.

Personaly I most enjoy my bard and my wizard for PvP. Although with my bard I alway make it my goal to stay alive more than to kill others.

Akiira69
07-06-2007, 07:50 PM
Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.
If AD&D is nothing but PvP then please tell me the title of the rule book so that i might understand it better. I have read rule books as far back as 2.0e rule set and never once did i see any rules governing PvP. PvP as we know it today is an ONLINE GAMING TERM. It never has been and imo never should be a part of AD&D. It promotes childish gameplay and drives away people who just want to play and meet new people. they cant do that when a lvl 14 is ganking a lvl 3 just because he can.

MysticTheurge
07-06-2007, 07:58 PM
if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place.

*cougheckleberrycough*

Raithe
07-06-2007, 09:41 PM
If AD&D is nothing but PvP then please tell me the title of the rule book so that i might understand it better. I have read rule books as far back as 2.0e rule set and never once did i see any rules governing PvP.

There doesn't need to be any rules governing it because it's exactly the same as the rest of the game. The only distinction you could really make is in one case the dungeon master makes the decisions in combat and in the opposite case one of the "players" makes the decision.

In DDO, we don't really have a dungeon master. We just have environment. Which is why everyone needs to become each other's DM. Imagine if the game masters randomly took control of characters and monsters throughout the game... would they really be any different than just another subscriber?

No, they wouldn't.


PvP as we know it today is an ONLINE GAMING TERM.

This sentence I agree with. But...


It never has been and imo never should be a part of AD&D.

There you go, making the silly statement, even after you just emphasized that it was an online gaming term.



It promotes childish gameplay and drives away people who just want to play and meet new people. they cant do that when a lvl 14 is ganking a lvl 3 just because he can.

No, what is already driving people away is the lack of interaction in the game. People who have been playing for a year and 4 months have exhausted their ability to make fun out of "PvE." For me, it wouldn't matter if the developers released 700 new dungeons this month, I've already been through enough of their designs. Every single one of those 700 dungeons would feel like the same old same old, just as Gianthold did and most of the Desert did before that.

I'm never going to promise that enabling player interaction isn't going to draw a bunch of immature behavior into the game. (I happen to think a lot of that behavior is already in the game, and isn't any better than getting "ganked.") Dealing with several immature combatants is preferable to me than dealing with no one at all.

Gimpster
07-06-2007, 10:48 PM
*cougheckleberrycough*

That is an ignorant and insulting thing to say.

Rokurgepta
07-06-2007, 11:05 PM
That is an ignorant and insulting thing to say.

Insulting to whom? Its most likely the truth, like it or not.

KristovK
07-07-2007, 01:42 AM
PvP works as it was advertised...oh...wait..it wasn't advertised because it wasn't part of the original game plan...oops!

Funny, but the devs have stated in the past that PvP is what it is, it'll stay what it is, and that's all it'll be. Reasoning for this...it wasn't part of the game plan, the devs didn't want to add it, and it was only added to placate a very vocal minority who just wouldn't shut up about it.

No rewards for PvP...no xp, no loot, no stats to use for bragging rights, nada, zip, zilch.

Again it's working as advertised...just keep in mind, it was never advertised, so you are getting exactly what you were promised.

Raithe
07-07-2007, 02:52 AM
PvP works as it was advertised...oh...wait..it wasn't advertised because it wasn't part of the original game plan...oops!

Funny, but the devs have stated in the past that PvP is what it is, it'll stay what it is, and that's all it'll be. Reasoning for this...it wasn't part of the game plan, the devs didn't want to add it, and it was only added to placate a very vocal minority who just wouldn't shut up about it.

No rewards for PvP...no xp, no loot, no stats to use for bragging rights, nada, zip, zilch.

Again it's working as advertised...just keep in mind, it was never advertised, so you are getting exactly what you were promised.

It was never advertised? That's your counter argument?

Out of all the computer games sitting on the shelf at the end of February in 2006, I picked DDO out because of its Dungeons & Dragons label and I knew enough about MMOs and D&D to make me believe that it would be a sophisticated game that would focus heavily on player interaction. I was pretty close on the sophisticated part and I was incredibly surprised by the graphics quality and attention to atmospheric detail... but the shock that ran through my system the first time I saw a caster throw out an AoE spell and it didn't hurt any friendlies, was enormous. I had to take a few days away from the game I was so annoyed and irritated.

Player interaction was "advertised" simply by association with the D&D label...

and my counter "argument" is that (contrary to your claim) they haven't ever advertised that they won't include additional player on player (team on team) game mechanics.

If they ever did, you can happily expect to never hear from me again on any of these forums.

KristovK
07-07-2007, 01:35 PM
It was never advertised? That's your counter argument?

Out of all the computer games sitting on the shelf at the end of February in 2006, I picked DDO out because of its Dungeons & Dragons label and I knew enough about MMOs and D&D to make me believe that it would be a sophisticated game that would focus heavily on player interaction. I was pretty close on the sophisticated part and I was incredibly surprised by the graphics quality and attention to atmospheric detail... but the shock that ran through my system the first time I saw a caster throw out an AoE spell and it didn't hurt any friendlies, was enormous. I had to take a few days away from the game I was so annoyed and irritated.

Player interaction was "advertised" simply by association with the D&D label...

and my counter "argument" is that (contrary to your claim) they haven't ever advertised that they won't include additional player on player (team on team) game mechanics.

If they ever did, you can happily expect to never hear from me again on any of these forums.

So...let me get this straight...your idea of player interaction is PvP? Characters trying to kill each other? Am I getting that correct? Are you on meds or something we should be aware of? Violent interaction between people supposedly working TOGETHER isn't the norm, are you aware of this? This isn't Quake or Unreal or whatever, this is DDO, a game based on cooperative play, not shiving your teammates at the most opportune moment.

And your counter argument is wrong, they have stated that what we see for PvP is what we'll see for PvP in the future, nothing more will be done with it, it's a non-entity on the dev's to-do lists. The game was actually touted as NOT having PvP, read the interviews again, they were pretty clear that it wasn't going to be in the game and wasn't a factor to be considered. Many of us were disappointed by the addition of PvP to shut up the vocal minority who whined, cried and screamed until it was added. Please note that almost a year after PvP was added, NOTHING has been done with it, not a damn thing. Devs said they wouldn't do anything more with PvP and so far, they've kept their word and that makes most of the player base very happy.

Raithe
07-07-2007, 02:33 PM
So...let me get this straight...your idea of player interaction is PvP? Characters trying to kill each other?


You are aware that competition between players, whether to the death or simply to see who can jump the farthest, is all PvP. Yes, you have to have competition between players in an MMO. Without it, the world stagnates, there are no player storylines, and there's never anyone around who's been there for more than a few years.

Can you have events like the "Stormreach Olympics" without enabling people to environmentally interact with each other? Sure you can. With the incredible 3D engine that we use in the game it can even be interesting. It's not why I picked a fantasy role-playing game, however. You could have "the Sims Online Olympics" or any other variation and the contest would be nearly identical.

I find it hard to believe that I have to actually explain everything that they've removed from the true D&D game by PvP-proofing it. It really doesn't have much to do with killing:

1) There is never any uncertainty about who is friend and who is foe. Subterfuge and deception aren't part of the game. Rogues could actually have a place in the game if they were.

2) As mentioned before, all wizard AoE damage spells become much less tricky to wield. While many people probably think this is a good thing, I think that strategy and tactics in gameplay took a serious kick to the groin.

3) Alignments and affiliations don't mean anything. A paladin and an assassin perform the same daily duties.

4) Most importantly, every enemy is a stupid one that doesn't play by the same rules you do.



And your counter argument is wrong, they have stated that what we see for PvP is what we'll see for PvP in the future, nothing more will be done with it, it's a non-entity on the dev's to-do lists. The game was actually touted as NOT having PvP, read the interviews again, they were pretty clear that it wasn't going to be in the game and wasn't a factor to be considered. Many of us were disappointed by the addition of PvP to shut up the vocal minority who whined, cried and screamed until it was added. Please note that almost a year after PvP was added, NOTHING has been done with it, not a damn thing. Devs said they wouldn't do anything more with PvP and so far, they've kept their word and that makes most of the player base very happy.

Please provide the developer quote link so that I can avoid wasting my time further.

Gimpster
07-07-2007, 04:04 PM
Insulting to whom? Its most likely the truth, like it or not.
Wrong. The idea that David Eckleberry was somehow the driving force behind adding PvP is ludicrous.

Ken_Dorak
07-09-2007, 09:17 AM
So...let me get this straight...your idea of player interaction is PvP? Characters trying to kill each other? Am I getting that correct? Are you on meds or something we should be aware of? Violent interaction between people supposedly working TOGETHER isn't the norm, are you aware of this? This isn't Quake or Unreal or whatever, this is DDO, a game based on cooperative play, not shiving your teammates at the most opportune moment.

This made me laugh. Ah, good times.

Anyway ...


I could go into another complex dissection of what has been said since my last points were made from previous posters and ramble on and on about game mechanics, the developer's game plan, why PvP wasn't included to begin with, why it was added later, why the game isn't exactly on par with pen & paper D&D ... or, I could simply state the obvious. Again.

If you like DDO, play DDO. If you like PvP and don't care for DDO's version, suck up what you paid for the product since your interpretation of "player interaction" was off from what the next guy's interpretation of it was and go find a game where you can r0xx0r your s0x off by killing other people the old fashioned way - unmonitored and grief-tastic!

In other words, get over this whole PvP debate.

OKCRandy1
07-09-2007, 11:07 AM
I'm okay with any thread discussing improvements for any part of the game, including those I have no interest. I don't want to be stabbed in the back as I go through the Marketplace, but if someone enjoys the tavern brawls and it needs a little love to be a better feature, then I suppose it makes sense to have some constructive suggestions for the devs.

I haven't seen a good case made for PvP in DDO at all, doesn't make sense to me for instanced questing to have much more than the taverns.

Raithe
07-09-2007, 11:19 AM
I don't want to be stabbed in the back as I go through the Marketplace, ...

But you are perfectly fine getting ganked by an orc shaman? I would say you have pretty big issues separating your game persona from who you are in real life.

I see little reason for this thread to have been resurrected, except somebody's ego needed to be maintained.

I think it's pretty clear that that is also the main issue to be overcome when any discussion of PvP is introduced.

Lebrac
07-09-2007, 01:15 PM
To all u people out there hateing on PVP... pls stop it is a VERY fun part of this game and gives people something to do in while waiting for groups. NOw with this said. the ranting is going to start

All the people that HATE pvp are ppl who can't think outside of the box they have it in there heads of the only way the game can be played inside doungens and can not adapt to PVP. PVP is 100% different style of gameplay then killing mobs in quest and for this people who do not have the talent to get good at 2 things HATE it.

Now it's story tiem. When PVP 1st came out i HATED it 100% because it was DIFFERENT then questing but as time went on and i took a step back and looked at how i could do it better. NOw i have a TON of fun trying to learn other peoples way to kill me and counter it. NOW this also makes me run quests much better because when people see things as a strugle i see them as how do i get action a done without getting hit or killed by action B.

LAst thing if u dont' like pvp that is fine it's not a WORLD wide thing it's only is area's of the game and it has been put in the game and should be looked at. The CTF and the other arena's need a TON of love since i have not been even able to go into one in ages.

For those of us that ENJOY the pvp time we put in i would like to say again it would be spectaculare if there was a way to make a PVP zone that could be entered by all servers so that we could get some new blood and learn even more new tactics for the game.

Ziggy
07-09-2007, 01:19 PM
TO all those that hate the haters.

PvP was an after thought. The best thing you can probably ask for is for them to fix the deathmatch and capture the flag issues. THe idea that you cant choose your own teams or setup the match the way you want it.

To expect them to add an instance where you can fight cross server is silly expectation.:cool:

not an attack on any poster specifically. just the way i view things

Lebrac
07-09-2007, 01:29 PM
ziggy the area from all servers it's not something i expect... i would just say it would be a very cool thing to learn how other servers PVP and be able to adept and improve the skill lvl even more. not expected at all


Fixing the CTF and arean's should be expected since it's already in the game...

Roguewiz
07-09-2007, 01:48 PM
PvP Combat has no place in DDO. I'm not saying PvP is bad, I'm just saying it isn't good for DDO. It was poorly implemented, particularly because I don't feel enough testing went into it. Balance was not taken into consideration. With DPS, HP, and AC being heavily inflated anyways due to enhancements...PvP heavily favors those people. Skill, in all honesty, isn't really needed either. With good equipment, you can pretty much end any fight quickly (or slowly with the following Example)

14 Barbarian three shots a 14 ranger (40str raging, with power attack and a great axe)

14 Rogue with two paralyzers, jumps said barbarian, and keeps her permalyzed (new word =p ), goes afk for a drink while the barbarian can't do a damn thing.

If it wasn't for the two paralyzers, I would have died. But because barbarians have low will saves anyways (coupled with the fact that I was hasted, and I have imp two weapon fighting), she could not get un-paralyzed. She died about a minute later (freaking DR and hp)


I miss the days of true skill, where you could use Stealth tactics in games like Shadowbane, to slowly dwindle down a raiding group at a Resource Mine. :p (mainly because they were too dumb to not chase you)

KristovK
07-09-2007, 01:49 PM
Raithe, the Search function doesn't show posts from before April, much less from last year, so finding the actual posts involved isn't possible. Try searching Google or Yahoo, the interviews and intitial adverts for DDO can be found on them.

Sorry you didn't pay attention to the subject when it was a new one and the devs made their position clear on it, but not my problem.

PvP is what it is, deal with it if it's something that you MUST have, most of the playerbase don't care for it at all. This isn't WoW or EQ or UO or any of the other MMOs out there, that should be pretty obvious pretty quickly. There are NO player altered world events, NO player storylines outside of RP...the players have 0 effect on the world or storyline(there ARE multiple storylines going on in case you haven't noticed).

Friendly fire being off..well..I didn't like that at first, but I quickly realized it's a good thing. Online games tend to have more then enough people who try to disrupt gameplay and ruin other people's time, no reason to LET them have the ability to purposely kill an entire party and just say 'oops' over voice chat while you hear them giggling. We get enough people trying this sort of **** as it is with specific measures in place to prevent it. I can see it now...finish the Reaver..wiz sees something he wants in the warded chest, so he grabs the stones and nukes the party...'oops' as he takes the warded items.

Personally, I would suggest you go back to whatever MMO allowed you the ability to alter the world directly, directly alter the storylines AND have the ability to accidently nuke your entire party in the process. I can't actually think of any MMO out that does all that, but I admit to not being very well versed in most of them, so perhaps there's one that fits these criteria, and you can enjoy that one.

Dariun
07-09-2007, 02:08 PM
The best thing you can probably ask for is for them to fix the deathmatch and capture the flag issues. THe idea that you cant choose your own teams or setup the match the way you want it.


I'm neither for nor against PVP, but I do hate seeing things done badly.

Not letting players manually set up the teams for the team-oriented PVP (party v. party) has always seemed really really dumb to me. I'm not really into it, but I can sure see how it would be a lot of fun for a group of friends to put together parties to face off against each other.

Gimpster
07-09-2007, 02:48 PM
Not letting players manually set up the teams for the team-oriented PVP (party v. party) has always seemed really really dumb to me.
You can... somewhat... in an implicit way that might not always work. Basically, form two parties and have everyone sign up for the same CTF game, and your two selected parties will be sucked into the PVP world intact.

Ken_Dorak
07-09-2007, 02:56 PM
*yawn*

We're still going on about this? I didn't realize this was going to turn in to a congressional debate. The first person who starts a fillibuster will get shot.

PvP combat is good in some games. Not all, but some. It has nothing to do with the implementation of PvP in most games (although it is a factor is some), it is how the game was designed that makes the difference.

Quake (and its' sequels) was designed for PvP. Guild Wars was designed for PvP. Hell - even Ultima Online was designed for PvP.

DDO was not designed for PvP. That, is obvious. Just participating in a PvP match in DDO is grating due to the fact that the game mechanics make it incredibly poor and advantaged to whomever has the more uber weapon/spell. There are no tactics, no strategy, it is luck of the draw. If I paralyze/smite/vorpal you first - I win. And it works the other way too. Big deal.

The game mechanics work great for the dungeon crawl, but not for PvP. I agree, they should fix what is already there so it functions properly but that is it. PvP is not broken, because it was never intended to be in DDO. By massive whining from players and game reviewers being "disappointed" that DDO didn't have PvP - they added the ability to kill one another in certain areas. It's not really PvP combat, but it's as close as it will get. No rewards, no xp, no nothing.

They'll get around to fixing the leaderboards and CTF, but other than that let us all move on.

Thank you, have a nice day. :)

Lebrac
07-09-2007, 03:12 PM
*yawn*

DDO was not designed for PvP. That, is obvious. Just participating in a PvP match in DDO is grating due to the fact that the game mechanics make it incredibly poor and advantaged to whomever has the more uber weapon/spell. There are no tactics, no strategy, it is luck of the draw. If I paralyze/smite/vorpal you first - I win. And it works the other way too. Big deal.


Thank you, have a nice day. :)

..... THis quote from u PROVES to me that u are unwilling to learn or grow in your gameplay that is why u think the way u do about PVP... u have no idea how much strategy goes into a well though out PVP in the pit. this can be proven by the builds some ppl have came up with just for pvp. can also be proven by the gameplay of the people that PVP more in quests by how they more quickly react to things going against the plans of the group.

Ken_Dorak
07-09-2007, 04:54 PM
Sure. And you are obviously the God of Player vs. Player combat. Congrats, I praise thee oh mighty one.

You tell me it takes strategy, I saw it doesn't. You say this, I say that. Big deal. You're right - I have absolutely no interest in PvP. Does that mean I don't understand it? You're wrong there. The difference is that I don't care.

PvP is not what DDO is about. Get over it.

gelgoog
07-09-2007, 05:04 PM
as much as i don't like pvp it would benefit the ddo game if it was good and fair.

guild wars, bf 2142, halos and other pvp, pvp team mmo games that have a good battle system for that go into the mainstream for tornaments. with sponsers and such. i know fps are the main but guildwars works and yeah it's point and click but its a sound combat system. ddo can have that as well if not better.

maybe make it turned based instead for pvp in ddo.
hmmm that could work. since it's just quick fights.
also vorpals, para and uber weapons would be nullified upon entering would be good.

but yeah ddos pvp needs a big rework even though i don't like it too much it really would help the game get more people playing it if it was a known good team mmo pvp.

turned based pvp could work really well for ddo the more i think about it.
hmmmmm.

/shrug

Raithe
07-09-2007, 08:24 PM
Sure. And you are obviously the God of Player vs. Player combat. Congrats, I praise thee oh mighty one.

You tell me it takes strategy, I saw it doesn't. You say this, I say that. Big deal. You're right - I have absolutely no interest in PvP. Does that mean I don't understand it? You're wrong there. The difference is that I don't care.

PvP is not what DDO is about. Get over it.

One of the best ways to have a thread and posters "get over it" is to stop posting, which brings it to the top of the page.

Especially when it had been killed 2 days ago.

Akiira69
07-11-2007, 05:41 AM
There you go, making the silly statement, even after you just emphasized that it was an online gaming term.
Apparently you can not read i did not say DDO i said AD&D as in the Pen and Paper version. I suggest you learn to read english before you put your foot in your mouth.

You are aware that competition between players, whether to the death or simply to see who can jump the farthest, is all PvP. Yes, you have to have competition between players in an MMO. Without it, the world stagnates, there are no player storylines, and there's never anyone around who's been there for more than a few years.
Do you even know what PvP stands for? It means Player vs Player or Player Killer. It is to the death there is no other meaning so unless youve been hiding under a rock or behind a bunch of carebears for the past 10 years. you would know that by now. please do us all a favor and not comment on things you have shown you have absoluely no knowledge about.

Belfalcon
07-11-2007, 06:42 AM
thare is no point to PvP i hope thay dont waste any time on PvP.
if you like PvP and would like to see cross server PvP go to world of warcraft. then. you can pvp it up with all the kids


I would LOVE to someday see cross server PVP... because PVPing the same people all the time does get a little old at times. and it would be great fun to have to adapt to a new style of PVP from others since most people on the server i play on PVP alot alike.

A tourny to take the top say 5 or 10 people from Melle type classes and caster type classes from each server and 100% copy there char's to risia then have the finals played there would be a great way to do this.

Ziggy
07-11-2007, 08:36 AM
*cougheckleberrycough*


That is an ignorant and insulting thing to say.


Insulting to whom? Its most likely the truth, like it or not.


Wrong. The idea that David Eckleberry was somehow the driving force behind adding PvP is ludicrous.
Apparently Gimpster is correct. It appears Ken troop had a hand in the pot back in aug 2005
http://ddo.stratics.com/content/hoclogs/hoc_0805.php


Brannoc - *Sinteres* PvP elements, any at all? If so, will there be any meaning (profit, territory) to battle, or will it be for personal pride?
KenTroop - We're not doing PvP in DDO for launch...PvP is not an essential element of the D&D experience, and that's ultimately what are lodestone is -- recapturing that tabletop experience and bringing it to life in a MMP.
KenTroop - Eckelberry's answer nails it -- we're not like other MMPs, because we're not trying to be...we want to be the quintessential D&D experience that you can play with your friends.
KenTroop - It's why we instance our dungeons -- private playgrounds for you and your friends without interference, it's why we don't have grinding -- D&D is not about standing in one spot and killing the same monster over and over again, it's why we don't run everywhere -- D&D is about fun adventure, not travelling for 10 minutes to get to the fun.
EckelberryDDO - Moreover, i can tell you that the D&D game system doesn't really embrace the idea of PvP. Beyond the fact that D&D is all about teamplay and teamwork, even the base spells of D&D like hold person make it very troubling to make a PvP game. After all, we dont care when you cast hold person on a goblin and ruin its gameplay experience. But if you cast it on a fighter and he can do nothing but fail a save and die... well, that
EckelberryDDO - ... well, thats not very fun.

Shecky
07-11-2007, 09:42 AM
Do you even know what PvP stands for? It means Player vs Player or Player Killer. It is to the death there is no other meaning so unless youve been hiding under a rock or behind a bunch of carebears for the past 10 years. you would know that by now. please do us all a favor and not comment on things you have shown you have absoluely no knowledge about.

Quite aware of what PvP stands for, thank you. It means "Putrid, vile playstyle". And "to the death"? Are you freakin' KIDDING me? It's a bunch of pixels manipulated by a computer keyboard and/or a mouse. Giving it pseudo-legitimacy and overglorifying it by calling it "to the death" is just... wow, the mind boggles at how much money could be made by therapists with the knowledge that this mindset is out there.

The current set-up of PvP, with the no-importance, no-ramifications, no-impact tavern brawl being the standard in this game, is just fine. It's a fun way to work off a little steam and maybe razz a few guildies for laughs. To the death? E-chest-thumping at its worst.

Raithe
07-11-2007, 04:46 PM
Do you even know what PvP stands for? It means Player vs Player or Player Killer. It is to the death there is no other meaning so unless youve been hiding under a rock or behind a bunch of carebears for the past 10 years. you would know that by now. please do us all a favor and not comment on things you have shown you have absoluely no knowledge about.



Player versus player, or PvP, is competitive interaction within a game between two live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponent, which is similarly referred to as player versus environment (PvE) or player versus monster (PvM). PvP could be a type of combat in MMORPGs, MUDs and other computer role-playing games (CRPGs) pitting one player's 'skill' against another's.

PvP can be broadly used to describe any game where players compete against each other, such as first-person shooters, real-time strategy games or tennis. In computer role-playing games, this is typically called player killing or PKing, where player controlled characters actively do battle against other player controlled characters.

The term has also been adopted in discussions about traditional role-playing games and live-action gaming, with approximately the same meaning.


I wonder how many points you score in tennis for killing the opposing player?

Raithe
07-11-2007, 06:06 PM
Brannoc - *Sinteres* PvP elements, any at all? If so, will there be any meaning (profit, territory) to battle, or will it be for personal pride?
KenTroop - We're not doing PvP in DDO for launch...PvP is not an essential element of the D&D experience, and that's ultimately what are lodestone is -- recapturing that tabletop experience and bringing it to life in a MMP.
KenTroop - Eckelberry's answer nails it -- we're not like other MMPs, because we're not trying to be...we want to be the quintessential D&D experience that you can play with your friends.
KenTroop - It's why we instance our dungeons -- private playgrounds for you and your friends without interference, it's why we don't have grinding -- D&D is not about standing in one spot and killing the same monster over and over again, it's why we don't run everywhere -- D&D is about fun adventure, not travelling for 10 minutes to get to the fun.
EckelberryDDO - Moreover, i can tell you that the D&D game system doesn't really embrace the idea of PvP. Beyond the fact that D&D is all about teamplay and teamwork, even the base spells of D&D like hold person make it very troubling to make a PvP game. After all, we dont care when you cast hold person on a goblin and ruin its gameplay experience. But if you cast it on a fighter and he can do nothing but fail a save and die... well, that
EckelberryDDO - ... well, thats not very fun.

By the way, thanks Ziggy for the chat script. Ken Troop is completely fouled up in his thinking, because while player killing is not an "essential element of the D&D experience," player interaction is the very core that is missing. There is no reason to roleplay with someone if nothing they can do can affect you in any way.

I now know not to worry about DDO any longer... it's a hopeless case.

Maldini
07-11-2007, 09:34 PM
I would LOVE to someday see cross server PVP... because PVPing the same people all the time does get a little old at times. and it would be great fun to have to adapt to a new style of PVP from others since most people on the server i play on PVP alot alike.

A tourny to take the top say 5 or 10 people from Melle type classes and caster type classes from each server and 100% copy there char's to risia then have the finals played there would be a great way to do this.


Go to Risia. Test servers are where cross-server PvP happens in other MMO's.

Merlask
07-11-2007, 09:48 PM
...but I don't think I've been at a D&D game once where the players havent, at one point or another, tried to kill one another. This occurs either by long term plotting with other players, or concidental 'oops, I swear I was trying to hit the monster with that AOE spell...' moments. I'm kinda baffled how 'pvp' is 'not a part of D&D' :confused:

Some fun examples:

My Eberron character Mekari CHA draining my husband's character because his character performed a coup de gras on another player's char ... Mekari figured he would be coming for her next.

One of my buddies working as a a bad guy in a Wheel of Time rp working to kill one of the other players. Loooong time coming, but he ultimately ended up getting discovered prematurely, and the players got in a big duel over it.

In my RPXpress game I ran, three players tried to gang up on and kill one player because they felt he was 'hording the magic items.' Ultimately they did end up killing another player character, but that was self defense, as it was my hubby scheming with me to see if they'd really off him just because they knew the player ^^

Uxor's dad in a Forgotten Realms game was aaaalmost in need of a rez because one of the players forgot he took double damage from fire spells >< ow.

The players jumped my hubby's char in The World's Largest Dungeon because they felt he was getting too powerful, and ultimately would be able to kill them all if he so desired. Now mind you they were all of evil alignment. That part wasn't bad. What was bad was that in this part of the dungeon, if you died, you would get 'reborn' so to speak (i.e. respawn.) So not only did they kill him, but they did so by throwing him in a vat of holy water so that he would respawn over and over again and die to the holy water every time, so he couldn't get a rez.

So yeah... players killing each other in D&D... never heard of it

KristovK
07-12-2007, 12:20 AM
Merlask, no offense, but it sounds like you only play evil groups, which is rather anti-D&D to be honest. Rules even make mention that evil alignments are not meant for the players but for the NPCs...I know, gets overlooked ALL the time, especially since there's classes that actually require evil aligments, but hey...

30+ years of PnP, I've had a few character versus character engagements take place, I admit that. In high school, the paladin in the party went after my barbarian after many years ingame of my barb baiting him. Cost the paladin his paladinhood and my barb some pulled muscles from laughing after he was rez'd. In college, had the DM take over my character and attempt to kill the party, they stopped him and discovered a demon had possessed him, lead off to another adventure. Outside of those two experiences, NONE of my non-evil aligned games in the past 30+ years involved players trying to kill each other. Had plenty of racial or class tension things going on, even some religous issues between party members, but trying to kill each other...no. That is NOT common in PnP, it's not even desired and is rather discouraged by the rule books.

Now, my evil aligned games...plenty of player trying to kill player action, and every single one of those games ended the same way...someone kills everyone else and the campaign is over, and it's usually pretty short lived. Which is probably why it's discouraged by the rules....go figure.

PvP isn't part of D&D, never was, and the rules make that pretty clear, even down to saying that evil alignment isn't meant for players....

Want PvP, go play something built around it, cause that ain't this game and it shows. From early interviews(as quoted already in this thread) it was clear, PvP wasn't in the design plan, and it's been made clear AFTER they folded to pressure and added PvP, it's NOT being made more then it is...you get places to go at each other, outside of that, tough.

Merlask
07-12-2007, 11:21 AM
Merlask, no offense, but it sounds like you only play evil groups, which is rather anti-D&D to be honest. Rules even make mention that evil alignments are not meant for the players but for the NPCs...I know, gets overlooked ALL the time, especially since there's classes that actually require evil aligments, but hey...

30+ years of PnP, I've had a few character versus character engagements take place, I admit that. In high school, the paladin in the party went after my barbarian after many years ingame of my barb baiting him. Cost the paladin his paladinhood and my barb some pulled muscles from laughing after he was rez'd. In college, had the DM take over my character and attempt to kill the party, they stopped him and discovered a demon had possessed him, lead off to another adventure. Outside of those two experiences, NONE of my non-evil aligned games in the past 30+ years involved players trying to kill each other. Had plenty of racial or class tension things going on, even some religous issues between party members, but trying to kill each other...no. That is NOT common in PnP, it's not even desired and is rather discouraged by the rule books.

Now, my evil aligned games...plenty of player trying to kill player action, and every single one of those games ended the same way...someone kills everyone else and the campaign is over, and it's usually pretty short lived. Which is probably why it's discouraged by the rules....go figure.

PvP isn't part of D&D, never was, and the rules make that pretty clear, even down to saying that evil alignment isn't meant for players....

Want PvP, go play something built around it, cause that ain't this game and it shows. From early interviews(as quoted already in this thread) it was clear, PvP wasn't in the design plan, and it's been made clear AFTER they folded to pressure and added PvP, it's NOT being made more then it is...you get places to go at each other, outside of that, tough.

There is 'evil' and there are 'conflicts of interest' ;)