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Macrawn
07-02-2007, 09:04 AM
Okay I've read a lot about fighters and high AC. There is a lot of argument going back and forth about it, but it seems in general that high AC is still useful, maybe not as usefull as before though.

My question though is my bard has an AC in the high 30's. I also have a full set of robes that I use quite often mostly because when I scroll cast arcane scrolls I don't want spell failure. I'd like to think that my AC will at least deflect some of the melee damage when I put it on and buff it up. How effective is say a 40 AC? I bet a lot of players have ACs in this range.

To me even reducing the number of times I'm hit by 25 percent makes wearing the armor useful.

Ziggy
07-02-2007, 09:07 AM
I play a WF barbarian MC'er with an AC in the low fortys. I dont have any problems with it in Gianthold.

bandyman1
07-02-2007, 09:18 AM
My rogue runs at a 44 unbuffed. Add a ranger's BS and a haste and that's a 48 and I can hit uncanny dodge for another +6 boost when needed. UMD a couple blur scrolls and I don't have any problems.
IMHO I wouldn't expect anything less than a 40 standing AC to cut it in GH. Just do like a caster and rely on Displacement and aggro management.

Aeneas
07-02-2007, 09:20 AM
you need at least a 46 or so in normal gianthold quests for your AC to be more effective than a displacement spell. Anything less than 40 you might as well not be wearing armor.

Macrawn
07-02-2007, 09:28 AM
I don't need more effective than a displacement spell. I got that on too. But after the attack gets through the displacement how often will a 40 AC stop a hit?

Serverdown
07-02-2007, 10:48 AM
The issue here isn't that fighters have obscene amounts of ac higher than other classes, it's more that fighters are built for high ac. Specifically made for it. You don't see many other classes taking feats like dodge, two weapon/handed defense. They lowered the gap by 1 by removing fighter's dodge enhancement. If you want a high ac character, you go with a high ac build. Most of the time not as effective as a cookie cutter build, however, their ac will be close to a fighter with the right stat, feat and gear selection.

A_Sheep
07-02-2007, 12:37 PM
What it all comes down to, of course, is "what is the mob's to-hit?"

I don't have much data, but I have guessed that the average Gianthold Elite Monster has around a +40 to-hit. This makes any AC 41 and lower completely useless (5% protection (monster rolls 1 to miss)). Every point of AC above 41 will increase your protection by 5%. (although it is probable that archer enemies have a higher to-hit than this)

On Normal difficulty, however, I am guessing that the mobs have closer in the neighborhood of +35 to-hit or lower. In this case, your 40 AC is 25% protection.

I am also in your boat with my bard. I have a 42 AC while hasted (which is pretty much all of the time) and that hasn't been protecting me much and it's been sucking up my slots big time (chaosgardes, Seal of Earth, Heavy Mithril Shield, Dex Item, Mod fort on ring (don't have heavy fort ring) versus heavy fort on robe). I've been switching between dual-wielding with a Heavy fort robe and sword and board-ing. I like the dual-wielding better mostly because it gets my DPS up a lot and with Displacement on, the damage is coming in slowly enough to keep up.

Roguewiz
07-02-2007, 12:40 PM
It was posted somewhere that 55ac is about what is needed for the highest level dungeons on elite. Don't quote me on that, but I remember reading it.

40ish AC should be ok for most things on Normal difficulty, in the upper levels

Sojourner
07-02-2007, 01:00 PM
Can't prove it absolutely, but I would guess for gianthold missions, mobs to-hit numbers are somewhere around here:
Normal: +35
Hard: +37
Elite: +40

So, if you can't hit a 35 AC, you might as well strip down naked and enjoy your nakedness.

Anything over 35 is going to help. It is just a matter of how much.

If you run gianthold elite, and you never want to get hit, you need AC60. If you run on normal with a blur buff, and you're ok getting hit 25% of the time, you need about a 50 AC. If you don't have anything better to wear on your armor slot, and you have a 40 AC, then at least the mobs are are missing you 25% of the time on normal.

Affront
07-02-2007, 01:27 PM
My paladin doesn't have that high an AC (38-40 unbuffed I think; he has a +4 protection & the invaders ring). But he does have a heavy fort item. While he takes some damage through a fight but he mostly avoids the criticals which take up to 80 hp in one swing. If you're going to be taking damage on hard or elite I think it's important to reduce the rate of damage. It's always easy enough to block and call for the cavalry if you're really getting hammered (unless you are the last one standing of course).

Affront

Macrawn
07-02-2007, 02:45 PM
Hmm, I don't think I like how this pans out. I understand that fighters built for AC should get some protection but if seems pointless for anyone other than a fighter built for AC to wear any armor at all apparently.

Something seems kinda wrong about armor having no effect at all. Being a bard it is really stretching it to get even a 40 AC but evidently a robe would probably offer more protection as you have at least have some greater elemental protects on it. That seems silly.

I know this goes against pnp rules but I'd like to see armor at least give some kind of damage reduction for wearing it at least. There should be some kind of advantage for non AC built fighters to be wearing it.

wraith87
07-02-2007, 04:27 PM
Hmm, I don't think I like how this pans out. I understand that fighters built for AC should get some protection but if seems pointless for anyone other than a fighter built for AC to wear any armor at all apparently.

Something seems kinda wrong about armor having no effect at all. Being a bard it is really stretching it to get even a 40 AC but evidently a robe would probably offer more protection as you have at least have some greater elemental protects on it. That seems silly.

I know this goes against pnp rules but I'd like to see armor at least give some kind of damage reduction for wearing it at least. There should be some kind of advantage for non AC built fighters to be wearing it.

You mean things like Axe-block, Spear-block, Hammer-block or Adamantine? Or possibly Invulnerability?

skraus1
07-02-2007, 04:58 PM
There is more variability in mob's to hit than this thread implies. On elite, against some mobs in the giant hold I get decent amounts of misses when I'm at 43. Against others, decent amounts of misses on a 50, and against others no misses on a 50. For example, those wights in potp to hit is astronomically high...at least +50. If you're sword and boarding it to get a 40 or so, then I would say don't bother if any other system allows you to get more dps.

Kawiki
07-02-2007, 05:12 PM
In elite GH quests if you can't get to 55+ don't bother. Those people that are saying they do ok with a 40 AC probably are not pulling much agro.

The common accepted rule is: DPS > HPs > Saves > AC

Dragonhyde
07-03-2007, 05:01 AM
My bard is lucky to get to a mid 20 ac because i am pure class I tend to wear robes for the scrolls and for the ease of switching when needed. I am no tank but am able to defend myself when needed...some displacement and buffs go a long way. I also try not to attack something that i havent made safe by spells. If you have a low to middle ac you have to play smarter and not just run and start hitting.

Rameses
07-03-2007, 05:22 AM
My level 14 Barbarian has an AC of 14 when fully raged. I have yet to be told that this character is a mana-sponge in game.

I firmly believe that HP>AC with the right equipment. And the reason I say this is Fearsome Armor is teh key to playing with such a low AC. I've found that I actually want to be hit as many times as possible to have the fear effect take over the attackers.

I am, Rameses!

Ziggy
07-03-2007, 08:24 AM
My level 14 Barbarian has an AC of 14 when fully raged. I have yet to be told that this character is a mana-sponge in game.

I firmly believe that HP>AC with the right equipment. And the reason I say this is Fearsome Armor is teh key to playing with such a low AC. I've found that I actually want to be hit as many times as possible to have the fear effect take over the attackers.

I am, Rameses!
so you have a fearsome robe?

How do you have 14 AC while raging rameses. I have high 30's-low 40's when raging with a +5 docent on adamantine body.

Asal
07-03-2007, 11:16 AM
There is more variability in mob's to hit than this thread implies. On elite, against some mobs in the giant hold I get decent amounts of misses when I'm at 43. Against others, decent amounts of misses on a 50, and against others no misses on a 50. For example, those wights in potp to hit is astronomically high...at least +50. If you're sword and boarding it to get a 40 or so, then I would say don't bother if any other system allows you to get more dps.

If you mean the wraiths not the wights that is because they ignore physical armor like platemail

Rameses
07-03-2007, 11:48 AM
so you have a fearsome robe?

How do you have 14 AC while raging rameses. I have high 30's-low 40's when raging with a +5 docent on adamantine body.

God no, I'd never wear a dress.

I use +1 Fearsome Chainmail of Improved Fire Resist (RR: Halfling)

I can't stress to you get fearsome armor or robes (though I'd never wear a dress, others might.) Not only does this cause extra "free" crowd control, but you'd be surprised how much it saves on spell points.

I am, Rameses!

Ziggy
07-03-2007, 11:50 AM
God no, I'd never wear a dress.

I use +1 Fearsome Chainmail of Improved Fire Resist (RR: Halfling)

I can't stress to you get fearsome armor or robes (though I'd never wear a dress, others might.) Not only does this cause extra "free" crowd control, but you'd be surprised how much it saves on spell points.

I am, Rameses!
Eh. Ive got the DQ belt. If i could find a +5 fearsome docent, id be all over it, but for now, ill stick with the +5 docent of axeblock i got.:D

EDIT: so +1 chainmail is giving you 4 AC?

EDIT 2: Duh i forgot you said while raging. :)

skraus1
07-03-2007, 11:52 AM
If you mean the wraiths not the wights that is because they ignore physical armor like platemail

No I meant the wights. The 50 ac I quoted was in a white dragon robe.

Rameses
07-03-2007, 12:24 PM
This Barbarians AC breakdown...

Base: 10
Racial: 1
Armor: 6
Rage Potion: -2
Barb. Rage: -2
Haste Potion: 1

Grand total: 14

Fearsome Effect: Priceless

I am, Rameses!

nabrendel
07-03-2007, 12:44 PM
You mean things like Axe-block, Spear-block, Hammer-block or Adamantine? Or possibly Invulnerability?

Yes those exist and you are fooling yourself if you consider wearing it at higher levels.. in PnP those are great armors to have at any level because you aren't getting sucker smacking for large amounts of damage.. 5 pts is nothing, or 2-3 pts per swing isn't much at all

now if there was say.. improved swordblock dr 10 slashing.. or greater sword block dr 15 slashing.. *That might be worth wearing.. I know my barbarian would love it and so would my squishes... and invulnerability is **** as most things after lvl 6 are swinging magic

Sojourner
07-03-2007, 02:14 PM
Yes those exist and you are fooling yourself if you consider wearing it at higher levels.. in PnP those are great armors to have at any level because you aren't getting sucker smacking for large amounts of damage.. 5 pts is nothing, or 2-3 pts per swing isn't much at all

now if there was say.. improved swordblock dr 10 slashing.. or greater sword block dr 15 slashing.. *That might be worth wearing.. I know my barbarian would love it and so would my squishes... and invulnerability is **** as most things after lvl 6 are swinging magic


I wouldn't say that they are nothing -- 5 points per hit, over 15 hits, is 75 HP you just saved yourself.

If you can't get your AC over 40, then the only thing you have left to do is either A) increase DPS to kill the mobs faster or B) increase your DR to take less damage when you do get hit.

Just get some greater elemental robes, and then some xxx block robes, and wear whichever one will give you be best DR/resistance value for whatever you're facing.

nabrendel
07-03-2007, 02:55 PM
True if you survived 15 hits.. to mitigate 75 pts of damage.. sure it adds up :D but my point is just that.. on a squishy it won't matter what you wear you don't have enough hp's to really survive being double tapped by most high end monsters.. let alone two or three.. conversely for higher hp classes it does add up but again you are faced with the fact you either kill it so fast it doesn't really matter or you take a long time to kill it and the Cleric is able to heal you for 100+ hps anyways so you might be saving him one spell.. which is nice but yeah

Val'lochar_Del'Armgo
07-03-2007, 03:03 PM
with +5 armour and a barkskin- I think my sorc would get to 44 if she could get her hands on that shield from the raid.... would be nice to have if I'm caught needing to scrap- she already has alot of high quality longswords and rapiers, 160 hp, heavy fort, +5 protection item, 18 str, and her own haste, GH, resists and blur....

only problem would be getting into a group that would let me roll for it. Most groups refuse.

Raithe
07-03-2007, 10:33 PM
Hmm, I don't think I like how this pans out. I understand that fighters built for AC should get some protection but if seems pointless for anyone other than a fighter built for AC to wear any armor at all apparently.

Something seems kinda wrong about armor having no effect at all. Being a bard it is really stretching it to get even a 40 AC but evidently a robe would probably offer more protection as you have at least have some greater elemental protects on it. That seems silly.

I know this goes against pnp rules but I'd like to see armor at least give some kind of damage reduction for wearing it at least. There should be some kind of advantage for non AC built fighters to be wearing it.

Yes, the D20 system (developed to use dice) is pretty absurd. Having a reasonable armor class should affect any monster's ability to damage you, regardless of how little that effect is. The truth, however, is that moderate AC has no effect in Gianthold. I do not run a character (even my fighter), nor have I seen any character (except for maybe 1 dwarf) that should actually be pitting his/her AC against the mob's attack. What's more is that 95% of fighters who have an AC that makes a difference will kill things so much more slowly than the rest of the field (mages, barbarians, rangers with multi-shot, backstabbing wounding rogues) that they really aren't serving any practical purpose unless specific tactics are developed beforehand.

The number one reason to wear a particular armor in a level 14 quest is entirely based upon it's looks. If it looks good, wear it!