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Cowdenicus
06-30-2007, 07:28 PM
SO here I am, playing my cleric and I get invited to a pug raid for The Titan on Elite.

I start thinking to myself well, what havent I done in this game so I flip open my quest journal and realize I have a measly 28 quests not done on elite in this game, alot of them level 5-9 quests.

Now 4.2 rolls out with a whopping ONE level 4 quest and this is what is supposed to keep me entertained for another month or two (Since updates have been happening every 5-6 weeks now)

Sometimes I am just confused with what Turbine is thinking. There is very little level 13-16 content out there (maybe a dozen quests) and we are getting two level 7 and under retrofits, a level 4 quest and the desert retro'd.

Turbine, this is your Barbeque, and it is a decent barbeque, but if it was my barbeque, I might do things a bit differently on the priorities for what content is released when.

Sincerely,

A concerned DDO addict.

Symar-FangofLloth
06-30-2007, 07:40 PM
At least Mod 5 should be at least 5 quests plus a raid. Even if it is the Necropolis which half the players hate. I'd imagine it'd be a level 12+ raid.
But yeah, what's 4.2 giving us? A new low level area with only one quest, a couple of revamped areas, and bard enhancements. Not much. /shrug

MysticTheurge
06-30-2007, 07:46 PM
But yeah, what's 4.2 giving us? A new low level area with only one quest, a couple of revamped areas, and bard enhancements. Not much. /shrug

I'm kind of liking Order's Wrath. And Nightshield is definitely handy. :D

But since this is about "content," yeah they need to put some more out. But, to argue devil's advocate for a moment, one of the things they got hammered for, especially early on, was not having enough wide-open-spaces adventuring. The last two updates have definitely added a lot of that.

Cowdenicus
06-30-2007, 11:19 PM
I'm kind of liking Order's Wrath. And Nightshield is definitely handy. :D

But since this is about "content," yeah they need to put some more out. But, to argue devil's advocate for a moment, one of the things they got hammered for, especially early on, was not having enough wide-open-spaces adventuring. The last two updates have definitely added a lot of that.

at the expense of any high level content, in my mind that is just crazy as there are alot more players near cap than there are "brand new" players.

Gimpster
06-30-2007, 11:46 PM
at the expense of any high level content, in my mind that is just crazy as there are alot more players near cap than there are "brand new" players.
Even if hypothetically there were brand new players, they wouldn't need new content: they could just play the old content, which seems new to them because they haven't been there before.

Kaish
06-30-2007, 11:56 PM
The only question I have is : Why planing on doing more Necropolis quest. The Dev should do a little survey and they will discover that most players hate Necropolis quests. Here is why:

1. Many quests are Maze based, and most players do not like mazes.

2. Fighting undead is no fun. Squeletons have way too much hit points and armor. It takes a very long time to fight them, and they are not fun at all. Fight poorly and once you have seen one, it seem you have seen them all. They have no special move, nothing.

3. The quests are too long and repetitive. You do the same thing over and over again. We need new stuff, new idea. For exemple : Xorian Cypher, Tempest Spine, Gwylan Stand, and many more. Those are quest that you do many things. Many differents objectives and in a fun environment.

So the new Necro quest need to be a lot different then the older one... otherwise, it wont be a success.

Vox
07-01-2007, 12:53 AM
I agree with the OP wholeheartedly... /SIGNED

As far as why are they doing more necropolis quests?... well they had damn well better finish the series off. Nothing I hate more than being left hanging mid-story. I personally kinda liked some of the necro quests *shrug*

Vox

Qzipoun
07-01-2007, 12:56 AM
What I don't understand is we DON'T need more low level quests... there is no issue of people leaving the game because there is not enough stuff to do at low levels but there IS the issue of people leaving because they have 5 capped toons and got bored...

My take on 4.2: *sigh*

Gimpster
07-01-2007, 01:42 AM
Here is why:
No. They're mostly not mazes, they're mostly actually rather varied once you get into them and know what's going on, and they're not really repetitive compared to other quests.

The REAL reason nobody liked them is because the reward (in loot and XP) was never comprable to what you could get from other quests in the same difficulty range.

Look at Tomb of the Wizard-king: that was a very popular quest when it came out, and to some extent it still is. But it's packed with undead, and is a pretty hard maze. Why was it so popular though? Twelve high level chests, that's why.

Gimpster
07-01-2007, 01:47 AM
Turbine, this is your Barbeque, and it is a decent barbeque, but if it was my barbeque, I might do things a bit differently on the priorities for what content is released when.
Here's a free service to Turbine, no charge. I'll design two new quests for you, which the playerbase as a whole will enjoy more than the 4.1 and 4.2 added quests:

1. Invaders 2: take the Tunnelworm map, pack it full of powerful evil outsiders, abberations, and dangerous casters, and make it a level 14 quest with 2-5 chests scattered around. Invaders tokens in the boss chest, + chance for named items.

2. Invaders 3: take the Gnashtooth map, pack it with those same kinds of monsters, plus numerous deadly energy traps in unpredictable positions, and a "puzzle" where the team must split up and push two levers at once to reach the boss. Make it a level 15 quest, and you'll have a winner.

Seriously- you could make decent new quests just by cranking that simple formula over existing maps. Make Invaders a quest chain for high-level chars, and there will be something to tide over until the next module update.

Vox
07-01-2007, 02:26 AM
Gimpster FTW here. I would run those adventures, and have a bundle of fun with them:)

Vox

Cendaer
07-01-2007, 02:40 AM
SO here I am, playing my cleric and I get invited to a pug raid for The Titan on Elite.

I start thinking to myself well, what havent I done in this game so I flip open my quest journal and realize I have a measly 28 quests not done on elite in this game, alot of them level 5-9 quests.

Now 4.2 rolls out with a whopping ONE level 4 quest and this is what is supposed to keep me entertained for another month or two (Since updates have been happening every 5-6 weeks now)

Sometimes I am just confused with what Turbine is thinking. There is very little level 13-16 content out there (maybe a dozen quests) and we are getting two level 7 and under retrofits, a level 4 quest and the desert retro'd.

Turbine, this is your Barbeque, and it is a decent barbeque, but if it was my barbeque, I might do things a bit differently on the priorities for what content is released when.

Sincerely,

A concerned DDO addict.

Yes, I'm sure you would do things differently.

Did you ask that PUG if they brought their pots?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=107293

darthuvius
07-01-2007, 03:19 AM
I'm kind of liking Order's Wrath. And Nightshield is definitely handy. :D

But since this is about "content," yeah they need to put some more out. But, to argue devil's advocate for a moment, one of the things they got hammered for, especially early on, was not having enough wide-open-spaces adventuring. The last two updates have definitely added a lot of that.

i wouldnt exactly call the cerulean hills, tangleroot gorge or the desert wide open spaces, seeing as how you can run across them with a haste spell. ill admit i wanted more open spaces too when i first started this game, but maybe they cant be designed into this game. if that is the case, then why did turbine make a half assed attempt at them instead of giving us a bunch of new dungeons? theres not much in 4.2 for me except maybe that nightshield spell. lately ive been considering cancelling my subscription and just coming back when they raise the level cap, whens that supposed to be next year or something? :(

Rog
07-01-2007, 03:31 AM
On one side if the keep adding new content at the lower level end then it will take longer for new players to get bored while comming up the ranks and they wont end up like us zerger high level quest maxed out with nothing new to do and to getting to the high end quest will take longer for they will be favor questing lower end quest which wont power level them as much as say pop elite for a ten times would.on the other for those that have stay maxed out every level increase in a week becouse we find a good loot quest and zerg it till ddo takes it away from us. lower end quest is the last thing we want to see what do adding new content is aways a winner and every update is a 10 fold over the last. I think they need to double the size of ddo add anouther town which if your brave enough to fight your way there then u can make the passage over land and fill the space into between with quest and rovering tribes if u zone into a tribe area have a quest that could possible get a new race or class to become if you complete the tribe quest and make it a random spawn quest put several race the will give a lage pool need ideas {try a monster manual} and have there location random so u always have to expore to find them this would really change the lineup and add much dervesity to the game enstead every being the same race and class.and add some real hi quest that beyond are levels so if we wonder into no man land you know it some would cry that the quest are to hard but that the point.
just a idea
lunarsong
from the mysterious realms of khyber

MysticTheurge
07-01-2007, 07:16 AM
Seriously- you could make decent new quests just by cranking that simple formula over existing maps. Make Invaders a quest chain for high-level chars, and there will be something to tide over until the next module update.

Don't stop there, either.

Higher level versions of quests on previously used maps seem like an easy and obvious way to expand the game pretty rapidly.

Stormcleave, Redwillow, Delera's, Catacombs, Sorrowdusk, Irestone, a bunch of the Three-Barrel Cove stuff.

Take those maps, add a high(er)-level twist to the story, put it harder enemies and you've got a whole lot more content.

Even better still, give them the HiPS treatment (connect a bunch of different quests into one map). It'd be a little bit harder, but not significantly, and definitely worth the effort.

sirgog
07-01-2007, 08:03 AM
Here's a free service to Turbine, no charge. I'll design two new quests for you, which the playerbase as a whole will enjoy more than the 4.1 and 4.2 added quests:

1. Invaders 2: take the Tunnelworm map, pack it full of powerful evil outsiders, abberations, and dangerous casters, and make it a level 14 quest with 2-5 chests scattered around. Invaders tokens in the boss chest, + chance for named items.

2. Invaders 3: take the Gnashtooth map, pack it with those same kinds of monsters, plus numerous deadly energy traps in unpredictable positions, and a "puzzle" where the team must split up and push two levers at once to reach the boss. Make it a level 15 quest, and you'll have a winner.

Seriously- you could make decent new quests just by cranking that simple formula over existing maps. Make Invaders a quest chain for high-level chars, and there will be something to tide over until the next module update.

Excellent idea, especially if #3 is made into a raid...

Cowdenicus
07-01-2007, 12:48 PM
Yes, I'm sure you would do things differently.

Did you ask that PUG if they brought their pots?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=107293

Nope, we actually kind of are getting along again, well for the most part.

Cowdenicus
07-01-2007, 12:58 PM
Don't stop there, either.

Higher level versions of quests on previously used maps seem like an easy and obvious way to expand the game pretty rapidly.

Stormcleave, Redwillow, Delera's, Catacombs, Sorrowdusk, Irestone, a bunch of the Three-Barrel Cove stuff.

Take those maps, add a high(er)-level twist to the story, put it harder enemies and you've got a whole lot more content.

Even better still, give them the HiPS treatment (connect a bunch of different quests into one map). It'd be a little bit harder, but not significantly, and definitely worth the effort.


Maybe you guys can answer this alot better than I could, but since the maps are already created, how dificult would it be to make a updated story arc of a higher level of some of the classic quests, and populate them with harder monsters.

Also just my opinion but everything doesnt have to be abberations and all. I believe there are many NPC races, that currently exist, that have not recieved their due in creation of content around them.

For example take Stormcleave. Completion of the regular Stormcleave adventure would open up Return to Storm Cleave. The whole basis of the story could be something like Helios kid or something seeks revenge and has gathered a force of giants, minotaurs, ogres and mephits to take over and or destroy StormCleave. In fact, they could make this a raid, where you have to have one team attempt to seal a portal while one team beats back waves of new enemies trying to pound the base into oblivion.

Once the 5 or 6 seals are resealed (the levers we had to turn in Stormcleave originally) the 2 groups meet at the amphiteatre for the final show down. You could have 4 "portals" open up around the amphitheatre sending in waves of enemies while other people are trying to fight the main mob.

Mad_Bombardier
07-01-2007, 02:07 PM
Maybe you guys can answer this alot better than I could, but since the maps are already created, how dificult would it be to make a updated story arc of a higher level of some of the classic quests, and populate them with harder monsters.Rather than a rehash of the same misson with the same enemies at higher levels, why not add a new story twist. By eliminating one powerful boss, we have caused a power vacuum that is exploited by new power players in the Xen'drik storyline. Possibilities:

After his 3rd defeat in FBtG, Deathshade decides to stop raising humans from Stormreach and decides to raise the giants in Redwillow's Ruins.
After regaining control of Korromar from undead and influences of Xoriat, the Dwarves are beset upon by giants eager to reclaim their ancestral settlement.
The Aurum moves in on Threnal to seize the Library and it's lost arcanum.

Claver
07-01-2007, 02:46 PM
at the expense of any high level content, in my mind that is just crazy as there are alot more players near cap than there are "brand new" players.

Let me ask you this, if 80% of the player population is capped and 20% is mid level should the capped characters get 100% of the content?

From where I stand, it seems more high level content is being added than low level content.

As a paying customer whose highest character is level 10 (going on 11th)with my next highest being level 3 going on 4th I am looking forward to Searing Heights and Proof is in the Poison quest.

Those who are capped should get most of the love but not all of it.

People like me count too.

I'm guessing Turbine has percise knowledge of player level demographics to drive their decisions.

Gimpster
07-01-2007, 02:57 PM
From where I stand, it seems more high level content is being added than low level content.
No. "High level content" would be for level 14-16. There hasn't been much high level for a while.

Update 4.2 is level 4th, which is low. Update 4.1 was 10th level, which is also low-mid.

Furthermore, update 4.0 (Reaver's Bane module) also has a lot of mid-level content. It isn't at all unusual to see LFM for a group of level 9s and 10 going into Trial By Fire or Prison of the Planes.

Drider
07-01-2007, 03:47 PM
First off... i'd rather have new orginal dungeons then the same old maps with higher CR enemies. That's the laziest form of dungeon creating you could ever do. lol.

Secondly, I like that they do add more things for the lower levels. As much as I hate rerolling, when boredom strikes me thats what I do. It's nice to have a few new things to do when your coming up in level. The new outdoor areas are at least a little bit of fun, I usually use them for when I'm soloing and such, but at least its something different.

And lastly, I do think they should add more stuff for higher levels, and they will, but usually we get those in bulk when they hand us new Mods.. meaning like 3, 4, 5... the 4.1's and 4.2's are usually just filler and game upgrades while they work on newer content. Mod 5 is going to have at least a handful of new quests and a raid, so thats at least something good coming. I think the main problem is that we are waiting for level caps to come and as the level cap raises the dungeons we used to run get left behind. Case in point, now that we have level 12-14 and Gianthold, the desert area is almost completely dead most of the time. I'd bet that 90% of the people that even go there anymore are just doing queen prep and raid.

Cowdenicus
07-01-2007, 04:34 PM
First off... i'd rather have new orginal dungeons then the same old maps with higher CR enemies. That's the laziest form of dungeon creating you could ever do. lol.

Secondly, I like that they do add more things for the lower levels. As much as I hate rerolling, when boredom strikes me thats what I do. It's nice to have a few new things to do when your coming up in level. The new outdoor areas are at least a little bit of fun, I usually use them for when I'm soloing and such, but at least its something different.

And lastly, I do think they should add more stuff for higher levels, and they will, but usually we get those in bulk when they hand us new Mods.. meaning like 3, 4, 5... the 4.1's and 4.2's are usually just filler and game upgrades while they work on newer content. Mod 5 is going to have at least a handful of new quests and a raid, so thats at least something good coming. I think the main problem is that we are waiting for level caps to come and as the level cap raises the dungeons we used to run get left behind. Case in point, now that we have level 12-14 and Gianthold, the desert area is almost completely dead most of the time. I'd bet that 90% of the people that even go there anymore are just doing queen prep and raid.

You mean the desert is still open? Couldn't tell by the LFM boards.

Drider
07-01-2007, 04:49 PM
You mean the desert is still open? Couldn't tell by the LFM boards.


Well I think most of the people still in the desert are probably guild groups doing raid prep.. and I agree there's no reason to go to the Desert anymore besides that. The xp is lacking compared to the Gianthold, that and I think the gianthold is more inherently fun then the desert and at least has more replayability.

Rokurgepta
07-01-2007, 04:59 PM
Let me ask you this, if 80% of the player population is capped and 20% is mid level should the capped characters get 100% of the content?

From where I stand, it seems more high level content is being added than low level content.

As a paying customer whose highest character is level 10 (going on 11th)with my next highest being level 3 going on 4th I am looking forward to Searing Heights and Proof is in the Poison quest.

Those who are capped should get most of the love but not all of it.

People like me count too.

I'm guessing Turbine has percise knowledge of player level demographics to drive their decisions.

There is already plenty of low and mid level content. You can get to top levels of the game pretty easy with plenty to do. High level chars have very little to do.

Citymorg
07-01-2007, 05:44 PM
I just wanted to add my 2cp. Between the last mod and the next, there are only going to be 3 new quests. Admittedly not very many. However, they have converted a lot of old useless landscape to something that peope will check out with every alt they make. With all the rerolling we invariably do, it makes levelling lowbies much easier. Which is why new lower level content is important. If I have to run my next new or character, or monk/half-orc/druid/whatever through all the same quests again, I might consider leaving. If I have something new to do, I will be much happier about starting over. There is a need for new low level content and I think changing the existing open areas into the zones they have is a good idea and vast improvement.

Given that, 2 of the last 3 quests added were level 10. The Gianthold was the last module update, and was all high level content. They have been adding high level content with almost every update since Vault of Night came out. These last two filled in some lower level stuff that had been ignored in previous updates. Next mod, all high level stuff.

As far as the Necropois stuff goes, I enjoyed them when they came out. There are not among my favorites, and I don't run them over and over. I didn't mind going through them. In addition, the 5th quest of each part was definitely worth the reward for the difficulty involved. The other 4 quests, a little low on the XP and the end rewards are trash.

I will reserve judgement on the new stuff until it comes out and I have a chance to see it. I imagine this story arc was probably planned beginning to end a long time ago, and this raid was designed and being built long before everyone hated the Necropolis. I don't think they can really turn back and scrap everything they have done now. That said, it may just suck, but don't know until it comes out.

Gimpster
07-01-2007, 06:10 PM
Given that, 2 of the last 3 quests added were level 10. The Gianthold was the last module update, and was all high level content. They have been adding high level content with almost every update since Vault of Night came out.
No, they haven't. Level 10 is solidly mid-level, now. Lots of Gianthold is not high level content. If a bunch of level 9s are looking for a single level 10 so they can go into the quest, that is not high level content. Probably the intention was for it to all be high level, but that failed in many cases.

There has only been one update aside from a module which contained high level content, and that was only for exactly two quests: Invaders and Relic of a Sovereign Past. Every other quest from a non-module update has been low or mid level zones.

MysticTheurge
07-01-2007, 06:56 PM
First off... i'd rather have new orginal dungeons then the same old maps with higher CR enemies. That's the laziest form of dungeon creating you could ever do. lol.

Yeah, but if it's a question of getting three brand new quests vs two brand new quests plus four new quests on old maps, I'll take the latter.

Cowdenicus
07-01-2007, 10:07 PM
Yeah, but if it's a question of getting three brand new quests vs two brand new quests plus four new quests on old maps, I'll take the latter.

Very agreed.

Mithran
07-02-2007, 01:37 AM
Running Necropolis 2 was a pain primarily because the chests (even on Elite) were roughly comparable to level 4, despite the enormous difficulty of the mobs. If good items were dropping in Necropolis 2, that's where people would be. As it was, calling it 'tedious' to fight through The Tomb of the * on Elite for Favor was beyond tiresome. Why all the swimming in the second quest? Just to make it longer? Anyway, after you're fought through all that, pulling +2 Full Plate from the chest or as an end reward stank.

If people were pulling vorpals and paralyzers from there, I expect the reception would have been far different.

Ringlord
07-02-2007, 07:20 AM
Gimpster first off L9 can't get into Giant Hold so there are no L9's LFG for quests there. L14.4 is the cap NOT L16 so that makes L10 NOT mid range so yes the addition of the Island outdoor area in 4.1 was high level content. Just not max level content since L12 I believe is the max that can go there and actually get credit for the explorer, slayer and rare encounter quests.

Now I think everyone agrees high level content is very important. The problem is that the players who blow through the new high level content in a few days are never going to be satisfied with how often it is released. They crank it out faster and it will be much lower quality and that will only draw huge complaints and cancellations of subs. They concentrate solely on the high level stuff then when those players with nothing, but capped characters will complain and ask why they did not add new lower level stuff when they get a new race or class to play as they have to repeat all the same old quests they did before. Playing a new race or class does not make a quest you already know by heart how to beat any more interesting to play for the 100th time.

Personally what I would love to see is they fill the game with massive amounts of content from L1 to L14+ and then recalculate all the XP so you don't get massive amounts from just one quest anymore and cut it off after repeating a quest say 2 times on the same difficulty so people will stop playing just certain quests because they give the best XP and rewards. Yet I want them to balance the XP per quest so that you could play at least 4 different characters and never take the same quest path through the game.

Now I know I am just wishing here, but that would be nice to see

bandyman1
07-02-2007, 07:30 AM
Gimpster first off L9 can't get into Giant Hold so there are no L9's LFG for quests there.


If a bunch of level 9s are looking for a single level 10 so they can go into the quest, that is not high level content. Probably

Ummm....I colored in the part I think you missed. I see lvl 9s in GH all the time. All you need is one lvl 10 in party. So yeah, you shot yourself in the foot there.

Vinos
07-02-2007, 08:16 AM
Alot of good ideas for missions here. I especially like the Invaders idea. Devs please take note. But in all fairness if you were to do that someone would complain that it was the same mission just different monsters. Can't win I guess.

Eradacator
07-02-2007, 08:19 AM
I just wanna add my 2cp to this entire post..

I have 3 capped toons atm, and working on one right now for this upcoming double xp weekend. Honestly (and I am just speaking for myself here. Not the general public) My play style is run through the low level content as fast as possible so that I can do something imho useful with my toons like raiding and GH (Sorry, I love to raid) The only reason I do this is because I have been playing this game since launch and I have at least ran every quest once (except The Pit, lol). So I am definately glad that the devs are paying some attention to lower level stuff currently and adding new things for me to experience with any new toons I roll. My only suggestion,request is that if your going to implement some new quests. Make them in the level range of 7-10. To me, and from what I hear on the forums alot, these are the troublesome levels atm. Even playing casually and not going on the zergfest I usually go on I can make level 7 within 3 days. Level 8 ehh no biggie thats doable too.. Its level 9 and 10 that the trouble comes. For some reason these levels are like the degenerates to the game. I am assuming that is just because of the way content is now and this will probably increase once the cap increases. But honestly It would be nice to have some more bulky xp quests focused in this area. Because as it stands right now when LFM at levels 9 and 10 (and I am only speaking for myself here) I have a few options for constant, good XP

1. Run VONs until I drop dead, which I dont mind doing but after ahwile I wanna cry

2. Hope there is a group running levels 7-10 or start my own for Deleras, CO6, (These 2 dont happen as much because at level 9-10 it's hard to get in to these quests when there are level 4's and 5's in grp), or Desert quests (which I really wish more people would run, they are fun)

3. Give in to the loot monkeys and loose out on a big bulk xp later and get penalized to do PoP runs with level 10-14's (Sure I will make levels 10,11) but once I am there it will be harder to make 14. And my logic behind is this because you see more LFM's for PoP then you do Crucible,Madstone, etc for obivous reasons =)

I understand these are all my choices and how or what quests I run are totally up to me. And I hope I conveyed my point so that most of you understand where I am coming from with this. Basically just kinda feeling stagnent in levels 9-10 =)

And finally in closing, As for MOD 4.2 and MOD 5. The Dev's have already stated that they intentionally only thew in one quest for this mod because they are working on making MOD 5 huge. With LoTD parts 3 and 4. If both parts follow trend, then we can expect 10 new quests easily from this (One being a raid hopefully =) ) Also rest assured that they are not going to be as dry and repetitive as they were previously as also stated by devs. Look at it this way guys, and you can take this with a grain of salt because I know alot of you are hard workers and wont be doing this...It is summer here in the states and I am sure they are probably trying to take it somewhat easy as well, the team probably wants to go on vacation also. So I am totally cool with waiting one more month to have a nice chunk of content to have for the fall :D :D :D

Inkblack
07-02-2007, 09:55 AM
IMO the single biggest thing they could do to help broaden low level quests is just to rebalance the the quests. If all of the low and mid-level quests were worth running, then we would have a lot more usable content at those levels.

There is a reason that certain low and mid-level quests are run more often than others... the experience is relatively high for the difficulty of the quest. If a quest is tough and with low experience, it gets ignored until someone is making a push to 1,750 favor.

Good end rewards also play a part of course, but if anything good end rewards should LOWER the experience granted in the quest (again, IMO).

In PnP, the DM is encouraged to adjust the end rewards based on the difficulty and circumstances of the quest. I wish Turbine would take that to heart. I have to believe that data is generated at Turbine that counts how many times each quest is run. That could certainly be used to pinpoint opportunities for improvement.

Ink

Vinos
07-02-2007, 10:03 AM
Another issue with low-level content is twinking. Does it matter what you put in loot-wise when you're already sporting the Cloven-jaw beads, maelstrom, puzzle cap, trapblast googles, 100's of cure pots, etc...

Zenako
07-02-2007, 11:18 AM
Another issue with low-level content is twinking. Does it matter what you put in loot-wise when you're already sporting the Cloven-jaw beads, maelstrom, puzzle cap, trapblast googles, 100's of cure pots, etc...

BINGO BIG TIME!

Running new characters with all the good stuff makes quests very easy. I know, been there done that....

Claver
07-02-2007, 11:32 AM
There is already plenty of low and mid level content. You can get to top levels of the game pretty easy with plenty to do. High level chars have very little to do.


It's more complicated than that.

My highest level character is 10th. Most of the time I log-on I see PUGs advertized for levels 11-14. If I do manage to get some 14th levels to bring me along for pity's sake, I don't feel like I'm contributing to the adventure or am a drain on resources (raise dead every minute), and hence don't enjoy it. So as a consequence, the new content is not open to me.

This divide will only get worse as more high level content is rolled out. On my server, most players are either very high level or very low level. There just are not enough players in the "mid level" range for consistent PUG formation.

My next option is to log on and play my 3rd level character until something opens up for my 10th level character. But now I'm bored with the game because I've already done all the low level content and I can't access the higher level content.

So should I, and other casual players, cancel their accounts? Would that promote the good of the game for people like yourselves who want a financially stable Turbine to be able to crank out high level content?

Turbine is wise to throw the masses a low level quest to keep the drudgery down. The game needs to satisfy a variety of demographics to be successful.

Solik
07-02-2007, 11:36 AM
I'd like to see new quests where the maps are the Stormreach districts.

A_Sheep
07-02-2007, 12:56 PM
I'd like to see new quests where the maps are the Stormreach districts.

That would be awesome!

Vi'Aed
07-02-2007, 01:19 PM
Let me ask you this, if 80% of the player population is capped and 20% is mid level should the capped characters get 100% of the content?

From where I stand, it seems more high level content is being added than low level content.

As a paying customer whose highest character is level 10 (going on 11th)with my next highest being level 3 going on 4th I am looking forward to Searing Heights and Proof is in the Poison quest.

Those who are capped should get most of the love but not all of it.

People like me count too.

I'm guessing Turbine has percise knowledge of player level demographics to drive their decisions.

Fortunately, dude, Turbine knows well enough that the forums, while home to some of the most dedicated players, are only a portion of the player base... and that portion is also going to be the same population that is largely capped.

Personally I would LOVE to see more low-mid level content. I'm looking forward to it. I have 1 14 and one 13 character and I haven't seen diddly of the 10+ content. Just GH over and over and over. Bah humbug. There is plenty of opportunity to play any new content as long as the mission in life isn't to cap your character. Yes, if you've run Stormcleave 8 times you don't need to run tombs, etc. Personally I would love to do different things while leveling my guys. JMHO

Vi'Aed
07-02-2007, 01:28 PM
No, they haven't. Level 10 is solidly mid-level, now. Lots of Gianthold is not high level content. If a bunch of level 9s are looking for a single level 10 so they can go into the quest, that is not high level content. Probably the intention was for it to all be high level, but that failed in many cases.

There has only been one update aside from a module which contained high level content, and that was only for exactly two quests: Invaders and Relic of a Sovereign Past. Every other quest from a non-module update has been low or mid level zones.


Disagree. If a level 13 or 14 can go in it and get xp from it then it is high level content. The exclusion of the upper mid levels (9-10) does not define the level of the content, the accessibility to high level characters does.

Vi'Aed
07-02-2007, 01:44 PM
Generally I would be discouraged by the re-use of maps. However I thought HiPS was so well handled that I wouldn't mind seeing them try more of that.

Some important points to consider when doing that, to avoid the feeling of repetition...

1) Monsters should generally be of a different type. Not just supped up versions of the previous monsters. Preferably beasties that lend themselves to different strategies.

2) Entry/exit points should be different. This will help change the players orientation perspective regarding the map.

3) Encounter points should be moved. This will make players make different use of the terrain in their strategies.

4) Lastly... not too much. HiPS is great. I love that quest, but too much of a good thing is no longer a good thing.

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 02:10 PM
Disagree. If a level 13 or 14 can go in it and get xp from it then it is high level content. The exclusion of the upper mid levels (9-10) does not define the level of the content, the accessibility to high level characters does.
Absolutely not. The amount of XP is irrelevant to high-level characters. XP is too easy to get to matter.

The only kind of real reward high-level characters can get is loot, and the only place to get loot is from quests that are not lower level than existing quests. At this time, the level cap is 14, and any quest containing chests below level 14 does not qualify as high-level content.

There is a +1 loot bonus coming up this week. Remember the last +1 loot bonus? The only quest was Prison of the Planes, because it's level 16 on elite. Contrast that with the previous +1 loot bonus, back when the level cap was only 12. At that time, there were three viable quests for high-end loot: Tomb of the Wizard-king, Relic of a Sovereign Past, and Court of Laliat.

Turbine has to wake up and understand that the core of gameplay is risk/reward. Reward=(XP+loot), but at level-cap XP is no longer a factor so gameplay reduces to risk/loot. New quests should be added based primarily on where they fit in the risk/loot spectrum, and everything else built around that.

Prison of the Planes elite sets the baseline at an average of 6 minutes per level 16 chest. New quests need to be calibrated against that standard... they don't need to follow the exact same loot-per-minute, but that should be the starting point for tuning.

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 02:12 PM
It's more complicated than that.

My highest level character is 10th. Most of the time I log-on I see PUGs advertized for levels 11-14.
If you can't get a character levelled above 10th, then you are irrelevant. Sorry, but you are too different from the bulk of customers for your opinion to matter. To have no character above 10th means you don't play very much, so why should Turbine care what you think?

Zenako
07-02-2007, 02:19 PM
Because he pays the same as you, and probably puts less of demand on their resouces. Someone plays 6 hours a week, vs someone playing 40 hours a week. Same rate, but very different usage. The casual user is NOT irrelevant and without them, the power user would soon be very lonely in a world without customers...which is a world that is shut down.

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 02:21 PM
The casual user is NOT irrelevant and without them, the power user would soon be very lonely
Absolutely, casual users are relevant. But casual users (who have been subscribed more than a few months) have characters higher than level 10. Having no character above level 10 marks you as a sub-casual user.

Claver
07-02-2007, 05:16 PM
Because he pays the same as you, and probably puts less of demand on their resouces. Someone plays 6 hours a week, vs someone playing 40 hours a week. Same rate, but very different usage. The casual user is NOT irrelevant and without them, the power user would soon be very lonely in a world without customers...which is a world that is shut down.

Thank you Zenako -

I don't think I could have defended myself more elequently or logically.


Absolutely, casual users are relevant. But casual users (who have been subscribed more than a few months) have characters higher than level 10. Having no character above level 10 marks you as a sub-casual user.

I'm not sure the above rebuts Zenako's comments since you and I both pay the same regardless of how you may label me.


I did want to respond to your comment as well.

Let me make a sweeping generalization that may not apply to you or other "serious users" but still seems a fair statement to make. Hardcore gamers are fairly likely to jump from game to game to game as the next "New Thing" comes out.

Serious gamers go from Ultima Online to Everquest to Asherons Call to WOW to DDO to whatever has new and improved graphics with new content to chew through. There is nothing wrong with that; it is the law of the jungle among serious gamers.

Now let me make a business pitch for a game that could have more longevity than just a few years. Imagine you could create a game that would not only cater to the best and brightest players who have the time and skill to chew through content in a week. Say this game would also appeal to:

- Someone who travels for a living and doesn't have much time to play
- Someone who loves his wife and would prefer to wine and dine her even though it takes some time away from video games
- Someone who has a 6 month daughter and who spends more time changing diapers and reading bedtime stories than playing video games

- Now imagine that you could find people who were 30, 40 or even 50 years old who might play such a game out of nostalgia for the Dungeons & Dragons P&P they played when they were teens. Because these people are older and have had more time to establish their careers they may have more money to spend to support a game that they may only play a few hours a week.

It seems to me that DDO could be that game provided the "sub-casual" player is still relevant.

For what it's worth, I have tried Asheron's Call, Final Fantasy online, and Everquest II and a few others only to revoke my subscription after a few months because those games don't fit into my lifestyle - DDO does. I've been paying nonstop since March 2006 even if I only play sporadically.

Gimpster, this doesn't prove my point but I am curious - what is the longest you have stuck with a game before moving to something better. Have you ever played a MMO for 5 yrs? If not, how would you market/structure a game so that it could be sustained for 3-5 years knowing that technology/graphics would soon make your game seem cartoonish compared to the competition?

Kawiki
07-02-2007, 05:49 PM
Claver, The question I have to ask is: Have you played EVERY single quest from level 1 thru 10? No? Why exactly do YOU need new content?

I have, at the bare minimum 3 times a piece. I hate seeing Turbine work on low level content and especially wilderness areas.

Any new player coming in has never seen the content so its new. There is no reason to add new content for new players.

Chances are the casual player has at least 1 level 14 toon.

You are far below the curve and probably have not even seen all the quests that are your level or below.

They need to start pumping out high level content to keep us interested. Sure we'll probably go thru it in a week but at least we will have more then 1-3 quests that we can run that will be worth our time.

Adding additional low level content benefits no one, and I believe it was a mistake on Turbine's part to listen to the players that wanted this.

There has never been a time when more players have been bored then right now. And honestly if they don't hit a home run with Mod 5 I could see our already declining player base go down even more sharply. Soon they will be left with the ultra casual player which makes up roughly 2% of their business.

tekn0mage
07-02-2007, 06:14 PM
Absolutely not. The amount of XP is irrelevant to high-level characters. XP is too easy to get to matter.

The only kind of real reward high-level characters can get is loot, and the only place to get loot is from quests that are not lower level than existing quests. At this time, the level cap is 14, and any quest containing chests below level 14 does not qualify as high-level content.

There is a +1 loot bonus coming up this week. Remember the last +1 loot bonus? The only quest was Prison of the Planes, because it's level 16 on elite. Contrast that with the previous +1 loot bonus, back when the level cap was only 12. At that time, there were three viable quests for high-end loot: Tomb of the Wizard-king, Relic of a Sovereign Past, and Court of Laliat.

Turbine has to wake up and understand that the core of gameplay is risk/reward. Reward=(XP+loot), but at level-cap XP is no longer a factor so gameplay reduces to risk/loot. New quests should be added based primarily on where they fit in the risk/loot spectrum, and everything else built around that.

Prison of the Planes elite sets the baseline at an average of 6 minutes per level 16 chest. New quests need to be calibrated against that standard... they don't need to follow the exact same loot-per-minute, but that should be the starting point for tuning.

This is actually a very well thought out, intelligent point. Normally I don't agree with much that you say, but you hit the nail on the head.

Especially about the comment of a casual/sub-casual user.

Go Gimp!

Claver
07-02-2007, 06:15 PM
"Claver, The question I have to ask is: Have you played EVERY single quest from level 1 thru 10? No? Why exactly do YOU need new content?"

To answer your question, let me refer to a post I made earlier in the thread.


It's more complicated than that.

My highest level character is 10th. Most of the time I log-on I see PUGs advertized for levels 11-14. If I do manage to get some 14th levels to bring me along for pity's sake, I don't feel like I'm contributing to the adventure or am a drain on resources (raise dead every minute), and hence don't enjoy it. So as a consequence, the new content is not open to me.

This divide will only get worse as more high level content is rolled out. On my server, most players are either very high level or very low level. There just are not enough players in the "mid level" range for consistent PUG formation.

My next option is to log on and play my 3rd level character until something opens up for my 10th level character. But now I'm bored with the game because I've already done all the low level content and I can't access the higher level content.

So should I, and other casual players, cancel their accounts? Would that promote the good of the game for people like yourselves who want a financially stable Turbine to be able to crank out high level content?

Turbine is wise to throw the masses a low level quest to keep the drudgery down. The game needs to satisfy a variety of demographics to be successful.

You asked if I have played EVERY quest Level 1-10. I wish I could. No one will join me on The Pit. Most of the time, I can't find enough 10th level characters on my server to play any level appropriate quests.

But I can find players to play quests levels 1-4 with my other character. I'm just bored with those quests because I've done them so many times (I have several low level characters).

So to recap, here is what I have posted elsewhere in the thread

- Capped players SHOULD get MOST of the new content but not all of the new content
- Players who are stuck in the middle, and who can't play new content because the server distribution is high end and low end should once in a blue moon get SOME low level content so there is something new for them as well
- Casual players help pay the monthly fee that keeps the DDO in business
- I take exception to the statement that what I need from the game does not matter since I am a casual player. It may not matter as much, it may be of less importance but there seem to be a few other customers like me online - just not on the forums.

Kawiki
07-02-2007, 06:38 PM
"Claver, The question I have to ask is: Have you played EVERY single quest from level 1 thru 10? No? Why exactly do YOU need new content?"

To answer your question, let me refer to a post I made earlier in the thread.



You asked if I have played EVERY quest Level 1-10. I wish I could. No one will join me on The Pit. Most of the time, I can't find enough 10th level characters on my server to play any level appropriate quests.

But I can find players to play quests levels 1-4 with my other character. I'm just bored with those quests because I've done them so many times (I have several low level characters).

So to recap, here is what I have posted elsewhere in the thread

- Capped players SHOULD get MOST of the new content but not all of the new content
- Players who are stuck in the middle, and who can't play new content because the server distribution is high end and low end should once in a blue moon get SOME low level content so there is something new for them as well
- Casual players help pay the monthly fee that keeps the DDO in business
- I take exception to the statement that what I need from the game does not matter since I am a casual player. It may not matter as much, it may be of less importance but there seem to be a few other customers like me online - just not on the forums.

I'll admit I did not go back and read every post. Most people are not level 10 and somewhat proves my point. I wouldn't join you in The Pit either, I hate that quest.

I agree capped playes should get the lions share of quests, but it has been just the opposite. The only high level content has been the major Mods with most of the updates devoted to lower level/enhancement changes. Go back and look, the data is there.

I agree that mid levels have it tough, especially if you are not in a guild or have a like group to run with.

Ok last question for you. If you owned your own business and had to only keep one group happy, which would it be the vast majority or realtivly insignificant minority?

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 06:39 PM
I'm not sure the above rebuts Zenako's comments since you and I both pay the same regardless of how you may label me.
It is fallacious to claim that paying the same amount means your desires are equally important. All customers are not equal- some have needs that are nonrepresentative of the subscriber base, and some are simply wrong.

I might go into an Italian restaurant as a paying customer and demand they replace tomato sauce with mayonaise. The other paying customers would be quite right to disparage my demand, even though none of them is paying more than me.


Serious gamers go from Ultima Online to Everquest to Asherons Call to WOW to DDO to whatever has new and improved graphics with new content to chew through.
Not really, no.


Now let me make a business pitch for a game that could have more longevity than just a few years.
If DDO doesn't shape up in terms of adding content, longevity will be measured in months or weeks.


Imagine you could create a game that would not only cater to the best and brightest players who have the time and skill to chew through content in a week.
That's a strawman. The present round of insufficient content complaints are based on ten weeks having passed since there was a significant increase. Module 4 was 2 1/2 months ago and had a satisfactory amount of quests. There were some flaws, but it was overall OK and gave high-level characters something to do. But since then, there has been nothing new to do with high-level PCs.

It is acceptable to tell players to "Be patient, high-level quests can't come every month". That's fine; one lowbie-focused update is reasonable. But after the 4.1 lowbie-update came the 4.2 extra-lowbie update, which is delayed to over a month total even though it only contains one actual quest.

And there's no indication a better update will be coming after it.


If not, how would you market/structure a game so that it could be sustained for 3-5 years knowing that technology/graphics would soon make your game seem cartoonish compared to the competition?
Short answer: I'd call it Never Winter Nights.

Longer non-answer: There is a lot I could say on that topic, but it doesn't matter here. DDO is more than a year old, and the window of opportunity for serious changes to gameplay has long since passed. All Turbine can do now is make minor improvements to what they've got.

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 06:43 PM
You asked if I have played EVERY quest Level 1-10. I wish I could. No one will join me on The Pit. Most of the time, I can't find enough 10th level characters on my server to play any level appropriate quests.
The Pit is a special case, because it is a puzzle-quest whose challenge is independent of the ability of your characters (so long as you meet a minimum level to not get killed by the monsters).

Getting XP at level 10 is not as hard as you make out. Heck, you can even do it on Risia which has peak population of maybe 11 players at once. On any real server, just go LFG with a message "XP XP XP XP", and you'll get pulled into a group that will level you up.

Cowdenicus
07-02-2007, 07:19 PM
And there's no indication a better update will be coming after it.


This is the sole major factor in why I cancelled my account right here. Those 12 words.

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 07:25 PM
Don't stop there, either.
Higher level versions of quests on previously used maps seem like an easy and obvious way to expand the game pretty rapidly.
Stormcleave, Redwillow, Delera's, Catacombs, Sorrowdusk, Irestone, a bunch of the Three-Barrel Cove stuff.
Recycling popular low-level quests is one way to rapidly produce high-level quests*.

However, it might be better to instead choose unpopular low/mid-level quests. That way when the high level players get going in the new area, it will seem fresher because they've had fewer runs to memorize the terrain.

What I'm thinking of there is stuff like Dreams of Insanity, Enemy Within, and Dead Shall Rise, or to a lesser extent Made To Order and Whisperdoom's Lair. Those are level 11 quests, but they've never been really popular (except for one brief interval when Whisperdoom accidently had good loot)

If Turbine bumped up those quests +4 levels, with an appropriate boost to monster-power, nobody would miss the old versions and everyone would be happier.

* Yes, I know Catacombs and Three-barrel aren't popular, but the rest are.

MysticTheurge
07-02-2007, 07:29 PM
However, it might be better to instead choose unpopular low/mid-level quests. That way when the high level players get going in the new area, it will seem fresher because they've had fewer runs to memorize the terrain.

I mostly mentioned those because they're relatively large maps and therefore more suitable to become "long" or "very long" high level quests. Less popular ones would probably make for a fresher feel, but there's also something to be said for the "nostalgia" that Invaders and HiPS bring with them.

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 07:30 PM
But I can find players to play quests levels 1-4 with my other character. I'm just bored with those quests because I've done them so many times (I have several low level characters).
You know what those are? The other level 1-4 characters are played by people who have level 14s they would rather be using, but they've exhausted the high-level content (except maybe for a 15-minute Stormreaver raid every 3 days) and are messing around with low-level rerolls for a little change of pace.

That level 1-4 population bump is not sustainable.

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 07:38 PM
New quests should be added based primarily on where they fit in the risk/loot spectrum, and everything else built around that.

Prison of the Planes elite sets the baseline at an average of 6 minutes per level 16 chest. New quests need to be calibrated against that standard... they don't need to follow the exact same loot-per-minute, but that should be the starting point for tuning.
To clarify that a little, the Prison of the Planes standard of 6-10 mintues per chest is a little too fast. It was probably an accident, and the quest turned out to be easier than it had been intended. But, DDO is stuck with it now, so new level 14 quests should also be aimed at that rate of looting.

When higher level quests come out, however, they should dial back to a somewhat lower rate of looting, taking 10-20 minutes per chest (or even longer if you are slow and inexperienced). That readjustment could come in starting with new quests that are level 15 on normal.

Claver
07-02-2007, 08:06 PM
Getting XP at level 10 is not as hard as you make out. Heck, you can even do it on Risia which has peak population of maybe 11 players at once. On any real server, just go LFG with a message "XP XP XP XP", and you'll get pulled into a group that will level you up.

Getting to a higher level is not the point for me - having fun doing so is what I'd prefer. I don't mind redoing quests for favor but I like variety, storm cleave makes me puke at this point. Given how little time I have to play I'd prefer exploring new content.

But there really isn't much more to say.

Your right, I'm wrong.


Ok last question for you. If you owned your own business and had to only keep one group happy, which would it be the vast majority or realtivly insignificant minority?

I would go with the vast majority.

I vastly underestimated my insignificance.

Dwolf
07-03-2007, 10:48 AM
Absolutely, casual users are relevant. But casual users (who have been subscribed more than a few months) have characters higher than level 10. Having no character above level 10 marks you as a sub-casual user.

Or it marks you as a brand new player who's only been on for a couple of months or so. I've run into quite a few new players in the last month. Imagine how much of a richer first impression the game makes with all the options coming up in level now compared to how it was just a year ago.

You build anything from the foundation up. You're asking them to put high end furnishings in the penthouse when they're still plugging holes in the basement.

This game will gain and keep more members for having good low to mid-level content - and the players who are still demanding more high level stuff will be the ones benefitting in the long run. Why?

They will have more people to group with.
The game will have more of a budget to churn out content with.
Expansions of every sort can be pushed out faster or with more content cause they can afford to increase staff.

Just churning out high end content to keep the few people busy who've capped out 7 characters per server won't do any of that.

They're doing a good job of shoring up all aspects of the game. They're doing it as quickly as they can. They're doing it in a way that hopefully will actually grow their options to do more over time.

Its time to stop the "me first" myopic vision thing - and start looking to the long term health of this game.

Vi'Aed
07-03-2007, 12:12 PM
Absolutely not. The amount of XP is irrelevant to high-level characters. XP is too easy to get to matter.

The point is NOT that capped players can get XP but that the XP allotment defined the appropriate level of the quest. If a 13-14 player would be assigned XP from the quest then that is a quest appropriate for them to be running.


The only kind of real reward high-level characters can get is loot, and the only place to get loot is from quests that are not lower level than existing quests. At this time, the level cap is 14, and any quest containing chests below level 14 does not qualify as high-level content.

There is a +1 loot bonus coming up this week. Remember the last +1 loot bonus? The only quest was Prison of the Planes, because it's level 16 on elite. Contrast that with the previous +1 loot bonus, back when the level cap was only 12. At that time, there were three viable quests for high-end loot: Tomb of the Wizard-king, Relic of a Sovereign Past, and Court of Laliat.

Turbine has to wake up and understand that the core of gameplay is risk/reward. Reward=(XP+loot), but at level-cap XP is no longer a factor so gameplay reduces to risk/loot. New quests should be added based primarily on where they fit in the risk/loot spectrum, and everything else built around that.

And bingo... there is the issue. You want new and different loot runs. I pray that Turbine does not take that view. That way leads to Monty-haul. Farming, in any shape, is not conducive to an MMO. Encouraging it will kill the social environment. They have enough problem with that now.

The reward is the game play. XP, level progression, & loot are there to add spice to the game play, not the other way around.

New content needs to be spread out across all of the levels, so it is accessible to everyone as they advance, not just to the top level characters who are just going to grind through it for loot. I am not even sure what the point of developing content for those players is. They don't seem to give a rats ass about it, to them it is purely an impediment to their 14th paralyzer.


Prison of the Planes elite sets the baseline at an average of 6 minutes per level 16 chest. New quests need to be calibrated against that standard... they don't need to follow the exact same loot-per-minute, but that should be the starting point for tuning.

For the love of God no! Never, ever, design a quest around the loot. Loot and its locations should be determined organically by the content. Places where and how it makes sense in the quest.

Using PoP as any sort of metric is just ludicrous. PoP is mis-designed. It is an error. What was a nice concept has devolved into a loot farm because the whole quest is so compartmentalized it is easily exploitable. They have worked hard to maintain PoP without major redesigns... but I won't be surprised to see any changes in there.

sabs
07-03-2007, 12:17 PM
For the difficulty, POP should only have 1 chest.

Vi'Aed
07-03-2007, 12:25 PM
I would go with the vast majority.

I vastly underestimated my insignificance.

The majority on the forums and the majority in the game are two completely different things. Turbine built this game for the casual gamer. They know any long term success is going to come from that group because the game is targeted at the 25+ crowd.

They will listen to the folks on the forums, as they tend to have a lot of great ideas. However those ideas are certainly biased toward power gaming.

i would be very surprised if the voice of a casual gamer is not not very valued by Turbine at this point. Keep talking.

Personally I am a more than casual gamer, and I find it very interesting to hear from that segment. I am not a 8 chr capped player either, so I find both ends interesting to hear.

Gimpster
07-03-2007, 02:11 PM
Or it marks you as a brand new player who's only been on for a couple of months or so. I've run into quite a few new players in the last month. Imagine how much of a richer first impression the game makes with all the options coming up in level now compared to how it was just a year ago.
It's barely any different. They get 4 level 1 tutorial miniquests, and the harbor walls are rearranged a little... but there aren't substantial new quests they'll see at level 1-5. There's Cerulean Hills and Searing Heights, but those hardly mean anything, and won't see much use.

The biggest improvement they made to playing a lowbie since release is actually the XP rebalancing pass that made a larger number of low-level quests viable in terms of XP per minute.


You build anything from the foundation up. You're asking them to put high end furnishings in the penthouse when they're still plugging holes in the basement.

This game will gain and keep more members for having good low to mid-level content - and the players who are still demanding more high level stuff will be the ones benefitting in the long run. Why?
That's rather delusional. DDO is not in the kind of product life-stage where players are testing it but unsubscribing because they don't like the low-level quests. But even if it was, these new additions wouldn't help.

The new low/mid-level quests are not majorly different from existing low/mid-level quests. A person who doesn't find the existing quests sufficiently fun to play up to level 12+ won't have his opinion changed by being given more of the same. Either you'll like the kinds of quests it has now, or you won't; and Turbine doesn't have the resources to make wholely original missions that don't resemble the previous ones in gameplay and artwork.


Just churning out high end content to keep the few people busy who've capped out 7 characters per server won't do any of that.
It's the people with 2-3 capped characters they have to worry about. The ones who are getting bored there wasn't a new quest for them for over 2 months now.


Its time to stop the "me first" myopic vision thing - and start looking to the long term health of this game.
Oh, I am. And if DDO cannot maintain novel high-level content at at least twice the rate it has for the past 3 months, there will be no long term health.

Gimpster
07-03-2007, 02:21 PM
The point is NOT that capped players can get XP but that the XP allotment defined the appropriate level of the quest. If a 13-14 player would be assigned XP from the quest then that is a quest appropriate for them to be running.
Whether the quest is appropriate to give you XP at level 13-14 is irrelevant to it being high-level content. Because hitting the XP cap is easy, a quest which has no numerical reward to an XP-capped character does not give him anything to do.


And bingo... there is the issue. You want new and different loot runs.
To deny that the endgame of DDO is loot is ludicrous.


For the love of God no! Never, ever, design a quest around the loot. Loot and its locations should be determined organically by the content. Places where and how it makes sense in the quest.
That is just too painfully ignorant to respond to right now. Maybe I can summon enough pedagogy to explain how wrong that is. But basically, saying such a thing demonstrates a deep and profound ignorance of game design.


Using PoP as any sort of metric is just ludicrous. PoP is mis-designed. It is an error.
Yes, like I keep saying, it was a mistake. But it exists. The mistake won't go away unless something it is actively removed. If they don't adjust the loot rate from Prison of the Planes, then they must use it as the baseline for any new loot.

However, that's apparently a moot point, because there's no indication we'll get more level 14 quests.

Vienemen
07-03-2007, 03:11 PM
For me the one thing that has me most involed for the longest amount of time is level cap increases...I think the two level idea is just the right stepping stone each time but...we need one every module. No way around it. I was the most busy with Mod 4 than any other. I had 3 chars waiting at lvl 12 to move to 14, favor for the new content, and getting the new items to help my template.

Currently I have a 4th char at 14 now, I have all favor on one and most on a couple of the others, and most of the items I want on my main I have by now.

To sum it up I think it was a grave mistake to not increase the level cap for this upcoming module. I know they in no way promised they would have a lvl increase every module...but I really think they should make that their plan. Now once the new module comes, we complete the few quests it comes with....other than the raid I dont see anything to hold my interest like a lvl cap increase would have. Until we reach lvl 20, I think that should be their focus...everything else should revolve around that.