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CrimsonSeraphim
06-29-2007, 04:46 PM
So I just finished 2 manning the Demon Queen. After some impressive hack, slash, and spellcast she finally topples, we dance, open the small chest (with loot worthy of not existing), open the big chest, split the loot, recall, and check our end rewards.

I think I should go through the trouble of raising Lailat from the dead given his idea of a reward. Seriously, what was Zawabi thinking? Did too much Djin ale get to his head?

Here's what I was offered:
+1 Improved Freeze V Dagger of Lesser Repair Lore
+2 Superior Lightning Lore Scepter <--------
Lesser Acid Guard Robe of Improved Silent Moves
DB Robe of SR13
Lesser Fire Guard Robe of Imp Silent Moves
Robe of SR19
Acid Guard Robe of Acid Resistance
Fearsome Robe of False Life
Elixir of Major Mnemonic Enhancement <---------
Wand of Lightning Bolt

I'm sorry, but for accomplishing Zawabi's lifelong dream and freeing the land from the great evil scourge that is Queen Lailat.... shouldn't there be something, well, to look forward to?

D&D's big revelation in loot was to have each person have their own chances. This is not a game of choosing need where you should have said greed. However, raid drops, a signature element of MMORPG's, are treated as treasured objects which are fought over and end in bitter disappointment for 10/12 of the people supposedly in the raid. Therefore the recent trend has been to cut out all the dead weight to get each person or nearly everyone in the raid loot.

So here's my suggestion. Put the fun back in getting a 12 person party together. Have a unique static reward list on par with raid loot (ok fine, slightly less powerful if you must) as end rewards for raids. Here's what this will help:
#1 People will be more positive during raid looting because this one big chest isn't the end of the line. There's a much better chance that you'll get something afterwards.
#2 More people will get that "YES! I got that unique item" feeling after raids.
#3 The devs will have somewhere to put mediocre raid loot, or restricted audience loot that appeals to very specific people and builds. Ex: The Khopesh from the Queen (what are the odds a khopesh user will be in the party? Its an exotic weapon after all) The Titan Docent: great for WF, not for ANYONE else. The Necklaces from VoN6 : great for sorc/wiz of that specific build ONLY. This allows Turbine to give awesome items to unique and special builds without causing distress to other players.
#4 Raid loot can be more generalized for everyone. In other words, make raid items useful to a wide variety of people instead of a small number. Ex: The Kundarak Delving Suit is useful to any dex based character. There are very good odds someone in a party will want it (Rogue, Bard, Ranger, and extras). Or the Sword of Shadows (any tank or melee character). +2 Tomes.

Let me know what you think.

Vinos
06-29-2007, 04:53 PM
I disagree. The end reward isn't the reason you do raids it's the raid loot.

Rathic
06-29-2007, 05:09 PM
I disagree. The end reward isn't the reason you do raids it's the raid loot.
thats why he is saying to put the raid loot in the end reward... so EVERYONE gets raid loot, not two people

Cowdenicus
06-29-2007, 05:09 PM
I personally would love to see 4-5 items in the warded chest and 2 seal breakers.

Elfvyra
06-29-2007, 05:16 PM
Perhaps he's merely offering what he considers "fair" compensation for the job you undertook for him. If you two manned it the risk vs. reward sounds about right....

Vinos
06-29-2007, 05:44 PM
thats why he is saying to put the raid loot in the end reward... so EVERYONE gets raid loot, not two people

Worst idea ever. So everyone would do a raid 2 or 3 times tops then they would have all the raid loot they need? I am not the biggest fan of the current raid loot system but it is certainly better than giving everyone what they want the 1st time through. I think they should have a token system like invaders or the dragon scale system. Get X tokens and pick your raid item.

dormetheus
06-29-2007, 05:44 PM
This post sounds incredibly greedy. What did you pull from the end chest?

Also, if EVERYONE on the raid got end raid loot, what would be the point of ever doing it again? Seriously, who would run it more than twice?

DDO is working a small population game. They're already giving away too much, and now you want more?

These raids would never get run.

shins
06-29-2007, 06:19 PM
Apparently some of you haven't run the dragon raid over 100 times in hopes of a delving suit or SoS, or Titan as much hoping for some gloves etc and NEVER seeing them drop...

The current loot mechanic is stupid, and all it rewards is repetition and stupidity. I don't have the answer as to what the mechanic should be, but i know it should not be what it currently is. Ran titan last week, 2 docents. Week before that docent and rattlecharm and just the other night before the server went down, got 2 battlecoins. All i know is that something needs to change because this is utterly stupid.

Lee4416
06-29-2007, 06:28 PM
I personally would love to see 4-5 items in the warded chest and 2 seal breakers.

this is an excellent idea - maybe not 4-5 but 3 from which we can choose 2...
and hopefully a way of programming for not having 2 of the same item?

zyp
06-29-2007, 08:27 PM
Have to agree. I really dislike the raids because of the loot system.

The raids are fun and challenging the first several times you run them but the loot system means you have to run them over and over and over... just playing the odds and hoping for some cool piece of raid loot to finally drop for the guy you're running at the moment so you can roll on it and watch it go to the lucky guy who came along on the raid for his first time but happens to roll one point better than you on the die.

Add to this the fact that if you just wait a couple of mods, those cool items you finally got from all that raid-pounding a little while ago are now dropping in non-raid chests as un-bound items or as rewards for token-collecting.

Rokurgepta
06-29-2007, 09:14 PM
Worst idea ever. So everyone would do a raid 2 or 3 times tops then they would have all the raid loot they need? I am not the biggest fan of the current raid loot system but it is certainly better than giving everyone what they want the 1st time through. I think they should have a token system like invaders or the dragon scale system. Get X tokens and pick your raid item.

So its better that we keep running the raids farming them until the loot tables get tweaked down because they are getting run too often?

LogannX
06-29-2007, 09:26 PM
For me raiding has never been fun but I ask this question-
If the attitude of raiders is that loot must be distributed slowly over several raids (otherwise why do it again) why do you ask for more raids. It makes it sound like you dont like raiding but just want to get loot other people cant get because they dont want to or cant get 12 good players that want to raid together.
Id rather see no raids and good quality loot on elite group dungeons but thats me. It still sounds like this is only a plea for oober loot and not good encounters. And it's very hard to have sympathy if you are 2 manning a raid no matter how much time or resources go into it.
I am happy the heart of DDO is group dungeons and not raids.

Sark 13 rogue khyber

Vinos
06-29-2007, 09:49 PM
So its better that we keep running the raids farming them until the loot tables get tweaked down because they are getting run too often?

read the whole post please. I also said I dislike the current system and proposed a change that isn't a "gimme what I want on the 1st run" suggestion.

Aesop
06-29-2007, 10:19 PM
make raid bosses drop collectables ala Invaders and let us buy raid rewards... the one we want... heck make it so they have a variable cost ala BAM. everyone one gets 1-3 Tokens and the Raid rewards cost 15-35 or more depending on the boss. At least then you are always working towards something and not just hoping and ending with sad disappointment when your item doesn't drop or worse... someone else wins it


Aesop


also the end rewards dfor raid should be taken from a higher table. If the Reward table for end rewards is normally lvl-4 make it lvl -1 or 2 or something like that... it is in theory a major undertaking

Aesop

Rokurgepta
06-29-2007, 10:42 PM
read the whole post please. I also said I dislike the current system and proposed a change that isn't a "gimme what I want on the 1st run" suggestion.

I read your whole post and just like invaders it leads to a grind and farming which supposedly DDO isnt about. But between the GH and invaders thats what they created.

sirgog
06-30-2007, 04:28 AM
I read your whole post and just like invaders it leads to a grind and farming which supposedly DDO isnt about. But between the GH and invaders thats what they created.

I'd prefer farming with a guarantee of getting the reward you want, than farming where you may or may not get lucky. And offering 2 tokens for normal, 3 for hard and 4 for elite makes running the raids on higher difficulties more appealing.

BluePaladin24
06-30-2007, 08:37 AM
Apparently some of you haven't run the dragon raid over 100 times in hopes of a delving suit or SoS, or Titan as much hoping for some gloves etc and NEVER seeing them drop...

The current loot mechanic is stupid, and all it rewards is repetition and stupidity. I don't have the answer as to what the mechanic should be, but i know it should not be what it currently is. Ran titan last week, 2 docents. Week before that docent and rattlecharm and just the other night before the server went down, got 2 battlecoins. All i know is that something needs to change because this is utterly stupid.

The PnP system for gerating loot is completely random. I don't know how they emulated that for this game, but it seams pretty random to me. If anything Turbine did us a favor by making an item that would appear in a specific chest at random so that you know where to find it. I am sure everyone on this forum knows where to find a Planar Gird, or a Fragment of the Silver Flame. Don't complain because you did not get one specific item that you were looking for. I am willing to bet that in the 100 times you ran the dragon raid you got some great stuff. I am sure there is someone out there that would be willing to trade you all the extra stuff you got for one of the items that you listed.

AEschyl
06-30-2007, 08:51 AM
to the OP:

I think what you're missing is this... YOU JUST 2-MANNED A FREAKING RAID!

the raids are supposed to be the end-content. the raids are suppost to measure your utmost ability to work together as a team.

the problem here is not with the way the warded loot is distributed, the problem here is not with how frequent any certain raid item drops (just go farm pop for a while, cuz i certainly dont see raid loot that gives you +5 resistance or +5 protection)... and the problem here CERTAINLY is not with the end-reward system. what, would you rather turbine go back to putting caster-mods on greatswords and kamas? getting non-50charge wands?

until turbine makes a REAL raid, it has no business giving you MORE reward for the CURRENT "raids" they have.

My personal records:
Von 5: 35min, Dragon: 4min (6man)
Forge: 45min, Titan: 15min (4man)
ADQ: 24min, Queen: 6min (2man)
No Prep Needed, Reaver: 15min (4man)

I hardly think i should be rewarded with a sure-chance at raid-loot for running quests that take less effort than running the Crucible... let alone a guaranteed good item from the end reward.


Fix raids first, worry about the pointless loot later.

(disclaimer: i'm a raid wh0re and always will be)

Vinos
06-30-2007, 09:15 AM
I read your whole post and just like invaders it leads to a grind and farming which supposedly DDO isnt about. But between the GH and invaders thats what they created.


So you suggest everyone gets what they want the 1st run through? And to think many people think we have too much loot as it is. LOL.

AEschyl
06-30-2007, 09:28 AM
The only raid loot that is worth "farming" a raid for are:

Sword of Shadows
Delving Suit
----------
Battle Coin
Centurion Armor
Chattering Ring
Insulated Armor
Jungle Cloak
Seven Fingered Gloves
Titanic Docent
----------
Bracers of the Demon's Consort
Bramble Casters
Lion-Headed Belt Buckle
Pouch of Jerky
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II
----------
Head of Good Fortune
Madstone Boots
Madstone Shield
Ventilated Bracers

and even some of those items... are horrible.

why are those good raid items? cuz they have abilties on them that you can NOT get from any other items/abilities/spells in the game. they are unique in their own little way. and before you say "oh, that's a pretty big laundry list of good items" think to yourself.. can any character use all or even most of those items??

Until raids drop Resistance +5 and Protection +5 items, and items with 2 +6 stat bumps on it... there really is no need to "grind" raid loot.

QuantumFX
06-30-2007, 01:40 PM
This brings up an interesting point. Since people can still duo DQ on a regular basis why not revisit the original "Dragon Scale" idea when VoN was the only warded chest raid.

In that case it was collect 12 scales and you go get to choose a bound item from the warded chest drops. (ala Invaders tokens) Everyone would have a reason to run the quest multiple times and everyone gets a reward eventually.

Advantages:
- It discourages soloing/douing for anything other than bragging rights.
- It gives casual/unlucky players a more positive outlook on the quest.
- It encourages repetition.
- It encourages people to make larger groups and possibly PuG a raid.

Gimpster
06-30-2007, 01:44 PM
Advantages:
- It discourages soloing/douing for anything other than bragging rights.
- It gives casual/unlucky players a more positive outlook on the quest.
- It encourages repetition.
- It encourages people to make larger groups and possibly PuG a raid.
Those are either incorrect, or disadvantages.

It does not encourage repetition any more than the existing system. Casual players may actually get LESS loot than under the existing system, because today it's typical for a casual player to run a raid once and get both items (the other players don't roll for them, because they often already have them).

And encouraging larger raid groups just so you can get more pulls at the chest, and not because the raid is hard and you need help to complete it is just bad. The big reason to bring characters into a quest should be to win the quest, not to multiply the loot output of the quest.

QuantumFX
06-30-2007, 03:41 PM
And encouraging larger raid groups just so you can get more pulls at the chest, and not because the raid is hard and you need help to complete it is just bad.

Dammit I thought something would be inspecific about this...

OK, lets see if I can clarify. Lets use Velah as an example. Rather than a warded chest we have 2 standard chests. You loot normally. As soon as you recall and turn in your quest (thereby resetting the timer) you get a bound item (Dragon Scale, Kundarak Seal, whatever).

As soon as you get 12 of these items you go visit someone in House K who rewards you in a similar manner as the invaders guy in the harbor. The rewards from this should be a random collection of stuff that would have normally been in the warded chest.

This adjusts the risk/reward ratio to favor having a larger party. Right now soloing/duoing some quests has a much higher reward factor for specific classes than is needed in this game. It transitions the focus from: Why bother bringing 10 other people when we can loot the warded chest and only have to worry about **** loot? It now becomes: Lets get a big party together so we can get this raid knocked out.

Cowdenicus
06-30-2007, 03:46 PM
The only raid loot that is worth "farming" a raid for are:

Sword of Shadows
Delving Suit
----------
Battle Coin
Centurion Armor
Chattering Ring
Insulated Armor
Jungle Cloak
Seven Fingered Gloves
Titanic Docent
----------
Bracers of the Demon's Consort
Bramble Casters
Lion-Headed Belt Buckle
Pouch of Jerky
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II
----------
Head of Good Fortune
Madstone Boots
Madstone Shield
Ventilated Bracers

and even some of those items... are horrible.

why are those good raid items? cuz they have abilties on them that you can NOT get from any other items/abilities/spells in the game. they are unique in their own little way. and before you say "oh, that's a pretty big laundry list of good items" think to yourself.. can any character use all or even most of those items??

Until raids drop Resistance +5 and Protection +5 items, and items with 2 +6 stat bumps on it... there really is no need to "grind" raid loot.

I would argue Gauntlets of Eternity should be on this list for clerics.

Rokurgepta
06-30-2007, 03:46 PM
So you suggest everyone gets what they want the 1st run through? And to think many people think we have too much loot as it is. LOL.

No i never said that nor think that, please stop assuming you understand me since you dont.

Gimpster
06-30-2007, 04:01 PM
This adjusts the risk/reward ratio to favor having a larger party. Right now soloing/duoing some quests has a much higher reward factor for specific classes than is needed in this game. It transitions the focus from: Why bother bringing 10 other people when we can loot the warded chest and only have to worry about **** loot? It now becomes: Lets get a big party together so we can get this raid knocked out.
Yes, that's what it does. And that is bad.

The concept of "lets invite 10 more people so the chest will output six times more loot" is not a good way to encourage bigger groups.

It'll still mean 2 people basically do the raid, and the other 10 try not to get in the way and screw it up. That could approximately happen in many raids, but it is already exactly what happens in VON6 some times: one fighter pulls the monsters, one cleric heals him, and the other 10 players are warned not to move at all or they might pull aggro and mess it up.

That's not fun.

QuantumFX
06-30-2007, 04:48 PM
Yes, that's what it does. And that is bad.

The concept of "lets invite 10 more people so the chest will output six times more loot" is not a good way to encourage bigger groups.

It'll still mean 2 people basically do the raid, and the other 10 try not to get in the way and screw it up. That could approximately happen in many raids, but it is already exactly what happens in VON6 some times: one fighter pulls the monsters, one cleric heals him, and the other 10 players are warned not to move at all or they might pull aggro and mess it up.

That's not fun.

Gimpster let me ask you this: Is your issue with the current difficulty of the raids or the Risk/reward ratio? :confused:

If it's the difficulty then I'm with you 100%. But that's a completely different subject.

The main issue that I believe the OP is touching upon is the fact that the risk/reward ratio of at least VoN6/DQ/TF quest series is ********. Doing a quest for months and not getting anything to show for it is even less fun than watching someone run the bases. Quests shouldn't have to depend on external guild merit systems to keep the loot fair. It discourages playing with others on your server and subtracts from one of this game's strengths - community.

The idea I presented has nothing to do with how much gets pulled from the small chests. No one does raids for the small chests. The ultimate goal is to make raiding worth the trouble. It can take a well specced ranger 7-10 minutes to solo/duo the DQ for a 90% chance at getting an item. If you had a group of 12 it would take 2 minutes but only give you about a 10% chance. If you're not an outsider and if you haven't pulled anything else recently and if it's loot anyone is actually looking for. That sounds like a lot of fun to me. :rolleyes:

As for the running of the bases in VoN6 that tactic only allows 1 single player to be a superstar *cough*punchingbag*cough* for the first part of the quest. Last I heard it's still better to have 12 people lynching Velah rather than 3.

Vinos
06-30-2007, 05:42 PM
No i never said that nor think that, please stop assuming you understand me since you dont.


Well then provide a solution. You don't like the current raid loot system and you don't like a token system. If you're going to complain provide an idea to fix it.

Gimpster
06-30-2007, 06:06 PM
Gimpster let me ask you this: Is your issue with the current difficulty of the raids or the Risk/reward ratio?
False dichotomy. My "issue" is with suggestions that would make the game worse.

QuantumFX
06-30-2007, 06:55 PM
False dichotomy. My "issue" is with suggestions that would make the game worse.

Why do you assume that I think there are only 2 options here? I was asking for some clarification of what you think the issue is.

You keep assuming that "it increases the loot output" when in practice it doesn't. Currently, in 12 successful dragon runs 24 pieces or raid loot drops. Whether 12 participants in each run or any other combination you will always have 24 pieces of raid loot drop. In the proposed system only 12 pieces of raid loot would drop but each participant would have their own pull from the collection and have a selection.

Rog
07-01-2007, 05:10 AM
90% of the raid i run i dont roll on loot why i cant use it or dont need it but thats not the point here how can we make the raid system better. 1.the first thing we can do without to much trouble would be have the loot that drops keyed to the class that are in the raid. no wf no docents drop I have been in many raids without wf and what drops 2 docents 2 hours wasted.really how hard would it be to key the loot to fit the party you still have to grind but big chest would hold something the party could use.2. the loot reward is outdated why run a raid when u can get same loot from a normal quest run update the loot system introduce new items into the mix to bring up raid run interest so more poeple would want to do all the prequest to get raid ready. 3. the spine is a great starter raid but we need more general raids when the spine was a top top raid it brought many toons togther and tought us how to work in raid groups also let us meet other poeple on the server that might not leave there click to run a pug group opens a lot of channels on servers between players a happy pug group is one that you dont need to do anything specail to get into.
just 3 ideas
lunarsong
from the mysterious realms of khyber

Ikken
07-01-2007, 09:45 AM
I really think the existing system is about perfect for the raid size. In other MMO's, it is not uncommon to have 50+ people in a raid, and still only have 2-3 items drop.

The problem people have is the (as I see it) correctly created loot tables. The computer generates them just as randomly as the d100 roll does in PnP. So yeah, the odds are NOT in your favor if you're looking for one specific item on the loot table. But that's D&D - the dragon just doesn't always happen to have that really great item you've always wanted.

But no matter what, you still have at least a 1/12 chance at winning some raid loot.

I like those odds.

-Ike

AEschyl
07-01-2007, 12:17 PM
I would argue Gauntlets of Eternity should be on this list for clerics.

i looked at those when i made that list, they are nothing more than a space saver (other than the undead guard.. which is lame anyways)

Cowdenicus
07-01-2007, 01:18 PM
i looked at those when i made that list, they are nothing more than a space saver (other than the undead guard.. which is lame anyways)

I dunno, I really like that on my cleric I am now able to equip one more item and have a repair +13 (that I never would have considered wasting a slot for).

Also I dunno about you, but I would not really consider Superior healing lore a waste for any cleric.

P.S. It is Eternal Faith, not undead Guard.

DaveyCrockett
07-02-2007, 06:18 AM
The only raid loot that is worth "farming" a raid for are:

Sword of Shadows
Delving Suit
----------
Battle Coin
Centurion Armor
Chattering Ring
Insulated Armor
Jungle Cloak
Seven Fingered Gloves
Titanic Docent
----------
Bracers of the Demon's Consort
Bramble Casters
Lion-Headed Belt Buckle
Pouch of Jerky
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II
----------
Head of Good Fortune
Madstone Boots
Madstone Shield
Ventilated Bracers

and even some of those items... are horrible.

why are those good raid items? cuz they have abilties on them that you can NOT get from any other items/abilities/spells in the game. they are unique in their own little way. and before you say "oh, that's a pretty big laundry list of good items" think to yourself.. can any character use all or even most of those items??

Until raids drop Resistance +5 and Protection +5 items, and items with 2 +6 stat bumps on it... there really is no need to "grind" raid loot.

Seal of the Earth not on that list? Boy, you just lost some credibility with me.

Auran82
07-02-2007, 09:30 AM
The goggles from the Queen seem pretty good too, Blindness Immunity + Permanant True Seeing? Sign me up.

Vorn
07-02-2007, 09:48 AM
One possible solution would be to at the next favor level, whatever that is, to allow the selection of one piece of raid gear from a raid of the character's choosing or a +3 tome.
Cheers,
V

Jack_No.7
07-02-2007, 12:41 PM
your telling me the von6 kundarak delving boots are useless because there not on ur list? ummm freedom of movement permanent anyone?

llevenbaxx
07-02-2007, 01:07 PM
Have to agree. I really dislike the raids because of the loot system.

The raids are fun and challenging the first several times you run them but the loot system means you have to run them over and over and over... just playing the odds and hoping for some cool piece of raid loot to finally drop for the guy you're running at the moment so you can roll on it and watch it go to the lucky guy who came along on the raid for his first time but happens to roll one point better than you on the die.

Add to this the fact that if you just wait a couple of mods, those cool items you finally got from all that raid-pounding a little while ago are now dropping in non-raid chests as un-bound items or as rewards for token-collecting.

Agree, I might actually start doing the raids again but for that junk mechanic. I just dont understand what these MMO players get out of having to run these UBER:rolleyes: raids again and again and again to actually get a useful item. Seems... well dumb to me.

I get sick of running the same stuff with the same character again and agin and again. Most unattractive thing about this game for me.

I really like your last idea, but the uber equiped grinders would be all up in arms Im sure. "I had to run that raid 52 times to get that item!". LOL No thanks. Though it would be a very casual player friendly thing, I dont think that is a Turbine's really targetting that crowd anymore.

Cowdenicus
07-02-2007, 01:12 PM
Agree, I might actually start doing the raids again but for that junk mechanic. I just dont understand what these MMO players get out of having to run these UBER:rolleyes: raids again and again and again to actually get a useful item. Seems... well dumb to me.

I get sick of running the same stuff with the same character again and agin and again. Most unattractive thing about this game for me.

I really like your last idea, but the uber equiped grinders would be all up in arms Im sure. "I had to run that raid 52 times to get that item!". LOL No thanks. Though it would be a very casual player friendly thing, I dont think that is a Turbine's really targetting that crowd anymore.

Based on population numbers, it would seem Turbine isn't really targetting anybody, with great success. :eek: :D

llevenbaxx
07-02-2007, 01:39 PM
Based on population numbers, it would seem Turbine isn't really targetting anybody, with great success. :eek: :D

LOL Good point.:D

Riggs
07-02-2007, 07:52 PM
all raids should be exactly like current static reward sytems now.

You do the chain, then the raid, get some crappy chest at the end. FO, talk to the NPC.

NPC gives you a choice of bound items, 2 of which are the named raid items, the rest are random bound items that are a couple levels better than you would have gotten otherwise.

You wont get the 1 item your looking for everytime, maybe not even on the 10th time - but you get something, and something better than just random level 6 chest items, maybe level 8 if your lucky.

A lot more people would actually enjoy raids if they knew they would get something at the end, not yet another chest full of rocks, and the joy of watching someone else get the 1 item they have been trying to get for 2 months.

If the game is not about fun and rewards - what game has everyone else been playing for 20 years?

Riggs
07-02-2007, 08:00 PM
Oh yeah, and once EVERYONE gets something, and what one person gets has no impact on whether someone else gets an item or not - THEN people will actually maybe have 12 person raids again.

Right now people exclude others because more people = less loot per person. That is a poor system for cooperation. it would be a lot more fun sometimes to try a raid with a lot of people, but that doesnt happen anymore except for the Titan where you need more people to pull levers and go down separate hallways - otherwise people would short the Titan too (and some can apparently)

Gimpster
07-02-2007, 11:39 PM
Oh yeah, and once EVERYONE gets something, and what one person gets has no impact on whether someone else gets an item or not - THEN people will actually maybe have 12 person raids again.
Once again, encouraging players to bring 12 guys to a raid simply to multiply the amount of loot produced is a bad idea.

The reason to want more players in a raid should be because the raid is so hard any fewer people would fail.

Anyway, the DDO system doesn't really work well with 12 players (neither does the PnP D&D system), so the devs shouldn't try to hard to encourage that kind of thing.

tekn0mage
07-03-2007, 03:06 AM
This post sounds incredibly greedy. What did you pull from the end chest?

Also, if EVERYONE on the raid got end raid loot, what would be the point of ever doing it again? Seriously, who would run it more than twice?

DDO is working a small population game. They're already giving away too much, and now you want more?

These raids would never get run.

I would rather see this instead of the situation in our guild. 100+ runs in the Velah raid and people STILL do not have what they are looking for.

Nor can I count how many people opt to do smaller raids with less people for better chances to get raid loot. Honestly, I don't blame the people for leaving the guild over raid loot distribution. The bottom line is, people want the loot. They are only going to be in a place where they are going to get the best chances for it.

Only a VERY small percentage of players (players, mind you, not FORUM participants) play "just to have fun". Everyone wants a piece of shiny raid loot.

Instead of raids being a good time with 12 people, they are exclusive little outings for 5 or fewer people. That's the only way the 4 hours of prep time become justified.

A year later and Turbine STILL has not even commented on the raid loot system. Which everyone is in agreement on that it NEEDS change. Not necessarily MORE loot, or LESS, just that it needs to be looked at and improved.

Get with it.

Eradacator
07-03-2007, 08:46 AM
I am not directing this post at anyone, this is just kind of my generalization in raid loot.....


Personally being a vet of quite a few MMO's and in particular one of the worlds best EQ2 raiding guilds at the time (not anymore). I can speak from firsthand experience there is not one MMO that I have ever played where the ENTIRE raid expected to get something "Uber" or whatever. I can remember
countless times where I raided a contested mob (For those that dont know, these are particular NPC's in EQ's gameworld that spawn on average every 2 weeks or more and you have to get it before other guilds have the chance) and not gotten one stinking thing from a chest of 3 items. But ya know what? Oh well....thats part of raiding unfortunately....you wont always get an item....but when you do you can be rest assured that NOT everyone and their mother has this item and it is something to feel special about.

Personally, I like the way the raid loot system runs now. If anything to improve, I REALLY liked the idea a few of you brought up with maybe stacking the chest with 3 or 4 different raid items and letting the lucky 2 have their pick....That would definately be alot better then beating the reaver on elite again and seeing 2 sets of ventlated bracers ::::whince::::


BTW Before I go any further I want you to know the rest of this post has nothing to do with the way YOUR PUG or GUILD distributes the wards...that is ALL of YOUR prerogative and has nothing to do with this

I don't think the correct solution to this problem is "farming" tokens or however say so that "everyone gets a fair shot". To put it frankly, IMHO, thats ****, and takes the entire point/fun out of raiding.... Honestly why does everyone deserve to have a "Above average" item everytime, or be guaranteed one after farming X amount of tokens??? I have posted an example of what this would do on another post and it goes like this... Take for example the delving suit from VoN 6 (the reallllly nice chain shirt that hardly drops). The reason majority of your chain wearing classes do this mission is so that they have a shot at getting this armor. And by having this armor this sets you apart from the crowd. It is very distinguishable as apposed to the cookie cutter +4 or +5 mith chain shirt everyone else has on. Now if every random toon had this or whatever other item you can imagine it then becomes an ESSENTIAL and not a Milestone. Which is why you raid in the first place...to have a shot at these uber loots. Nothing more to me screams "Hit the easy button" then giving everyone a raid item....

And just to clerify.. Yes I do have a few raid items on my toons because I choose to raid every oppurtunity I get. It is one of the fun things I enjoy about this game. Granted they aren't as extravagant as EQ2 but they are still fun to me and I understand I have a chance at something great if we succeed. But there have also been numerous times where I did not win something or did not roll on something....I didn't get bent out of shape or think for one second that they need to change something... I realize thats how raids work...if you want something that good then you will do it until you get it. Regardless of either you believe it or not.... It is the exact same concept in doing a million PoP runs....Why is it everyone hopes for the beholder room??? Kardins Eye!!! Why is it everyone hopes for the ice room?? Spiked boots!!!!.. So what?, If I am in a pop group and someone gets Kardins eye I should be upset because they got it and I got a heavy shield and leather armor that my caster doesnt use? No! lol I do the same thing I do in a raid when I dont win... Say grats, and cross my fingers for next time and be a good sport.