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Riot
06-29-2007, 03:16 PM
After all the chatter and opinions on raids I did a remedial survey among the most prolific raiders in the game.
(ie: The most prolific raiding guild on the " so classified" most prolific raiding survery)

In Merlask's recent survey Aundair ranked far and away the most prolific raiding server.
Of that server The Twilight Avengers are the most prolific raiding guild.
I happen to be a part of that guild.
(sure it may not be 100% scientific, but this is to say basically that, "hey we raid A Lot".)
If you raid more than us, Grats. survery your folks and pitch in instead of argue.

As a guild we raid the 4 majors on average 20 times a week. (not counting Tempest Spine)
This a low average, it can go over 30 sometimes.
**These are ALL GUILD raids** and do not include PuG raiding, which again would increase our average.

This gives us a lot experience with the quests, the bugs, the flagging, and reflagging like no other collective guild in the game.

Since we know about raid discussion in Turbine, both past and present, we're offering our views from the most raid active guild in the game.

**Top edited because folks got thier egos hurt**

================================================

1 ) Day timers are fine. Extending day timers past what they are now is probably not a good idea. The issue with quick repetition is not in the timers, but it's within the raid itself.

2 ) Difficulty needs to be ramped up. We understand that familiarity lowers the difficulty rating. And leveling likewise does this in straight up fights. More HP, More AC, More attack, higher level gear make a difference.

Difficulty can be ramped up several ways. Mostly though smarter mobs, or the addition of more mobs. And the removal of bugs. (ie: cleric safe spot in VoN 6)

3 ) Reflagging via quests is bad. Annoying, redundant, and basically boring/lame.

I ran a survey of the most hated quests in the game among our guild members.
(for whatever reasoin they felt like)
The tops were' DQ reflagging, and VoN reflagging. (offered as collective choices)
After that came the Pit.

Bottom line is we want Raids to require Raiding. Let Quests require Questing.

First let me say we are ALL in agreement, that we do not want the elimination of reflagging simply to benefit the ease or quickness of the actual quest.

Quite the Contrary in fact.
Were in agreement, that the original access to the raid Via Questing is a FINE IDEA!!! ALA The Twilight Forge...

A set of quests which must be completed once in order to access the Raid content is ideal. Then a RAID which carries the group toward a final encounter is another great idea. What we don't like is the mindless repetition of questing to reflag for the raid. It's boring, and it's old, and it will drive players away from raiding, and from the game.

This is where StormReaver Fails..... It's far to easy to repeat, and is thus an operation in milking a cow. And this does not carry the spirit of raiding at all. This is farming. This needs a PreRaid quest badly. The ideal one woulda involved the Dragons at the end of Gianthold Tor.
Why this wasn't done is very surprising.

The Demon Queen also fails in this regard, with the exception of the Reflagging. In our perfect world the DQ raid would be alot more difficult to begin with and Against the Demon Queen/Circle of Eternity would be re modified to a Raid encounter Prequel to the Demon Queen raid.

4 ) Expand upon your raid content and build upon what you have.
Let Raids allow you to Flag for Another Raid. So there is a sense of progression to Raiding. And not just singular story arcs.

I hate to bring up EQ but raid progression they had a handle on, despite some very valid mistakes. Their progression path made sense and allowed those who enjoyed raiding to progress in that manner.

5 ) Loot system, honestly we're fine with that. Chest loot for Preraids, with the Glyph Chest for the Major Bosses/Finales. it's working fine for us. We have an internal system for rewarding those and it's working good.

6 ) Puzzles Vs. Combat.Toss up, we like both.

We feel The Twilight Forge and the Titan are about the best combo. However, we woulda like a more smash Mouth fight with the Titan than the small percentage we do get to fight him. If we had to fight him for 50% of his life then it would be ideal.

Reaver is pretty good, Puzzle is very easy though. Probably should checked to see if there wasn't a sure fire way to beat it every time though. But we like having to tolerate his attacks for a long time. This was done well.

VoN is a toss up. Part 5 was fine, puzzles and fighting. VoN 6 was done poorly. The puzzle/problem of the pillars plays agains the climax of the fight.

And with the "Safe Spot" ont he VoN 6 platform, the Velah fight is WAY anticlimactic. And the Dragon should moved/flown during the fight as well.

7 ) Randomness should be considered.

Something not really seen too often. The mastermind game sorta hints to this in that the end isn't always the same. So you can't just pick the same colors.

You've installed randomness into DQ part 4 however and Chamber of Raiyum. Simpel as it may be.
Working that sorta randomness into a Final encounter would ramp up difficulty especially if the raid is under duress. They'd better pay attention.

8 ) Raid quests without Glyph chests are fine. (ala Temepst Spine) Let risk = reward though. I remember when Irestone Inlet was a Raid. It was a lot of fun.

=================================================

Basically in review,

We don't mind the initial quest flagging.

We dislike the constant reflagging.

We like Raid quests Prior to End Raid encoutners.

We like more difficulty in the form of tougher fights, and puzzles under duress.
(lailat would be IDEAL if she didn't have Overrun and spent more time swining for the fences.)
(Velah would be ideal if she could move/fly)
(Titan Would be ideal if we had to fight him for a greater precentage of his life)
(Reaver is good)

We are fine with reset timers and the Glyph system of loot.

We'd like to see raids build upon each other via flags/requirements.


Anyway, hope this gives you devs some insight to what we like.
And what we feel is hindering the fun.
As usual feel free to contact us/me with any questions.

We'd really like to help you guys make raiding more fun and challenging.

And for the record, the Titan raid was seen as the closest Raid to ideal amongst our guild members. Good length, good challenge, good finale, with good rewards. And NO reflagging.

Yaga_Nub
06-29-2007, 03:28 PM
Good post and great points.

But don't pat yourself on the back to much for being the most experienced raiding guild based of Merlask's GREAT piece of work. Come find me on Mabar if you really want to raid.

Cowdenicus
06-29-2007, 03:30 PM
There is still the issue of raid progression.

Ideally I would like to see a few raid quest arcs per level increase. Maybe using one raid to unlock another.

Also end rewards for raid series should be beefed up.

Gianthold raid does need some work, there should be something before the end fight. Even if it is only a series of a few rooms you have to "unlock" with the dragon/giant combos in them with a shrine between them and a chest per.

apollojuly
06-29-2007, 03:37 PM
2 ) Difficulty needs to be ramped up. We understand that familiarity lowers the difficulty rating. And leveling likewise does this in straight up fights. More HP, More AC, More attack, higher level gear make a difference.


I've only raided the dragon two or three times and Gianthold once. I only recently capped two characters so I finally would like to really try raiding.

Ramping up the difficulty would scare me away for good. I don't desire massive xp debt, a huge plat debt, and a less than 50/50 chance of success, all for a 1 in 6 chance of raid loot.

Shamguard
06-29-2007, 03:45 PM
My issues with the raids is the time it takes for the non hardcore players to get there for a 2-12 shot at a couple of random items that might be something the will benefit my character. :confused:

The raid loot system is not OK!:mad:

I guess if I didn't have a job and could spend everyday going on raids till I got the item(s) I wanted I would think it was OK too.:(

sigtrent
06-29-2007, 03:56 PM
Nice post Riot, if only they could all be this good!

Daze
06-29-2007, 04:28 PM
Nice post bro .... knew you were asking those questions for a reason.

As far as being THE raiding guild ... this isnt self proclaimed.

TA as a whole was actually surprised to find out that Aundair is the predominate raiding server. Admittedly we are the most raidingest (yeah yeah) guild on Aundair.

/shrug

Riott makes some valid points and has the knowledge base of his entire guild and PnP DnD to back it up.


My issues with the raids is the time it takes for the non hardcore players to get there for a 2-12 shot at a couple of random items that might be something the will benefit my character.

The raid loot system is not OK!

I guess if I didn't have a job and could spend everyday going on raids till I got the item(s) I wanted I would think it was OK too


As far as time put into raiding ... no one in TA plays 10 hrs a day. It isnt a full time job by any means. I played WAY more EQ and WOW as far as consecutive hours or weekly total. However, I now have 2 kids and twins on the way ..... not to mention my naval career.

Time isnt on my side .... however I still can stay on the top of my game (with 1 char) .... most of TA fill the other times with thier other chars.

Also your chances are 1 in 6 ......

health001
06-29-2007, 04:35 PM
I hate to bring up EQ but raid progression they had a handle on, despite some very valid mistakes. Their progression path made sense and allowed those who enjoyed raiding to progress in that manner..

they knew how to keep the hardcore raiders happy :)

Gimpster
06-29-2007, 04:39 PM
As a guild we raid the 3 majors on average 20 times a week. (not counting Tempest Spine)
Three majors? Which one are you skipping, Velah or Titan?


I ran a survey of the most hated quests in the game among our guild members.
The tops were' DQ reflagging, and VoN reflagging. (offered as collective choices)
After that came the Pit.
They only answered that way because those are the quests they remember hating. If those people ran more Dreams of Insanity, Enemy Within, or Shadow King- they'd be hated much more.

They just think they hate them because they run them a lot. The problem is not with the quests, or the fact that there is a big incentive to run them, but with the lack of concrete incentives to run other quests.

For example, there could be multiple quests sufficing to get a raid-flag item. They could easily add another desert quest providing an Orb of the Djinni, which is an alternative to Chains of Flame. They could double-up all raid flagging like that. Then they could go back to Vault of Night and create alternate quests for Dirge, Orphene, and Veil to flag for them as well, but +5 levels higher.

Deslen
06-29-2007, 05:25 PM
I guess if I didn't have a job and could spend everyday going on raids till I got the item(s) I wanted I would think it was OK too.:(

Dude, you'd be surprised to learn that I, like most of the member of TA, am over 18, live in my own apartment, work a full time job, pay my own rent, internet bill, and DDO subscription.

I was unemployed for about a month, and did indeed get a lot done during that period of time, but I didn't get a single piece of raid gear then.

In short, raiding is not something that consumes your life. It's something fun to do after work.

Lyrin

Impaqt
06-29-2007, 06:12 PM
Excellent post.. Just one area where I totally disagree....

The raids do NOT need to be more difficult.....

ANyone who makes a career out of Raiding is going to eventually find out how to beat the raid.. and its going to get easier every time you do it.. Once you figure out what you need to do it becoames easy... How many of us Beat the reaver the first time we went into the raid? I would be no one...

Its a Difficult raid... But once you figure it out, its not so bad. Easy even...

If 20 raids a Week Makes you the most active raiding guild I wonder where that places IFV.... Thats a Good day for us....

adultimp
06-29-2007, 06:14 PM
They only answered that way because those are the quests they remember hating. If those people ran more Dreams of Insanity, Enemy Within, or Shadow King- they'd be hated much more.

I think thats exactly the point though its not the quests that are bad its being forced to repeat them so often that make them so hated.


They just think they hate them because they run them a lot. The problem is not with the quests, or the fact that there is a big incentive to run them, but with the lack of concrete incentives to run other quests

I agree with the incentive to run other quests part. There are several quests that need to be looked at as far as risk vs reward, quests like the ones you mentioned (dreams of Insanity) ect.


For example, there could be multiple quests sufficing to get a raid-flag item. They could easily add another desert quest providing an Orb of the Djinni, which is an alternative to Chains of Flame. They could double-up all raid flagging like that. Then they could go back to Vault of Night and create alternate quests for Dirge, Orphene, and Veil to flag for them as well, but +5 levels higher

This is an interesting idea having alternate quests, however I think people would become just as bored with the alternate quests over time like they are with the original quests now.

I would like to see a completely random dungeon. One thats different every time. Create small sections and randomly piece them togather have traps randomly placed and random mobs to fight. I know this would not be truely random as the amount of sections and number of traps and mobs would be finite. But there could be a suffecient number of these that the group could not run it a few times and have everythimg memorized.

Jaysensen
06-29-2007, 07:34 PM
I run with a very hardcore group of friends from 4 guilds - we raid a lot. More than 99% of the population.

My thoughts:

1) I dont believe that risks and rewards are related. Doing a Raid Boss on Elite does not give enough incremental benefit past the first run (for favor). I suggested more drops to scale based on difficulty with a the number of wards being the limiting factor.

2) I dont believe the Raid Bosses are smart enough to be a challenge. You cannot compare even the AI of weaker HNMs in any other MMORPG to the Velah, Lailat, ***, Reaver of DDO. All of the bosses are really too weak and too dumb. The aggro system at least for raid bosses needs to be fixed.

3) The glyph system rewards doing raids in smaller numbers. End rewards are pretty bad, except for Reaver's Fate, which is appropriate for other Gianthold quests.


Lots of the other posters in this thread have a lot of nice points.

Locathus
06-29-2007, 08:51 PM
OK - another couple of thoughts from a TA member.

I think Riott's point is that the Raids lose their challenge after a while. We recently ran a "speed run" of the Titan to try to get some challenge to it since there isn't a question right now of whether we'll beat it or not. My thoughts:

Keep Normal difficultly similar to today - DDO needs players to be able to complete these Raids without uber toons to keep everyone interested. No problem there. BUT...

Make Hard and Elite significantly harder. Add things (puzzles, traps, or mobs) rather than just make the monster CR a bit higher. Really make people work to say they completed on Elite. It gives a raiding guild like TA a chance to prove themselves by knocking it out on Elite, but lets a good leader get a PUG group together and beat it on Normal. As Riott mentioned, the risk should equal reward, however, and completing it on Elite should provide a significant benefit.

Regarding reflagging, Riott has definitely hit our guild opinions on the head. Reflagging is boring - we've run the quests over and over and over again for the flag and don't want to do them again. Having a pre-quest is fine (a la VoN 5, DQ 4, or TF), but repeating VoN 1-4 or the three DQ quests gets old. Initial flagging is cool, and can be made harder if desired to give some sense of accomplishment. But once you get flagged, the quests feel like a grind.

Ekental
06-29-2007, 09:31 PM
The only point I think should be expanded on here is randomness.

This is an issue that gets brought up often, not only in raids, but all quests.

The devs have stated that the current intent of quests is to take you from "normal, hard, elite, and possibly beyond". This is preceded by an explanation that every dungeon can not simply be created like the assembly of lego pieces, or the DM module in NWN.

As such the most that you can expect at this time is 1-4 different permutations in set areas rather than a true randomization system.

So.. yeah, wait for the toolset to get revamped (don't hold your breath eh)?

The other points are fine, and likely have been brought up and thought of by all the raiding guilds in DDO.

Another point to bring up is raid requirements.
Currently, raids can be, (and are) run with the minimum # of required people on all difficulties.
That is to say, 3 for the forge, because you need 3 for the red water area, at least 2 for the runes in the dragon, 1 for DQ, 1 for Reaver.

One suggestion to deal with this is to make the mob encounters difficult enough to require more people. This is difficult to do, as people without the most "uber" of gear need to be considered.

Another suggestion is simply more runes to light, more puzzles for everyone to do, which doesn't make it more interesting at all.

Any ideas on this?

As a side note: This thread is getting dangerously close to becoming a guild ****ing contest. The OP is partly to blame by going off a forum user survey, but in the interests of actually trying to keep this flying for a while, get back on topic?

I'm sure there are plenty of "good" raiding guilds, and everyone who posts will be among them, posting about it on the forums won't make the guild any better.

Krazed
06-29-2007, 09:45 PM
Unfortunately the raids are designed for the lowest common denominator. That means the guys who play maybe 5 hours a week. Not saying that's a bad thing, but it makes the raids incredibly boring for those of us that play 5 hours a day.

All the raids, even on elite, are so easy for our guild now that it's getting boring. About a half dozen of our more dedicated guys stopped playing because the game 'Wasn't challenging enough.'

Problem is, Turbine has this notion that everything in the game should be able to be completed by everyone. Many other games have tried this and eventually found that it doesn't work. You need content that only certain, dedicated, people can do. It's the only way to keep the attention of the really hardcore players.

Jaysensen
06-30-2007, 12:15 AM
That is to say, 3 for the forge, because you need 3 for the red water area, at least 2 for the runes in the dragon, 1 for DQ, 1 for Reaver.


Two for the Forge and Titan. Been duoed many times.

Two for VON5, and two for VON 6 - and only because of the pillars. Velah herself is easily soloed.

Vox
06-30-2007, 12:47 AM
They only answered that way because those are the quests they remember hating. If those people ran more Dreams of Insanity, Enemy Within, or Shadow King- they'd be hated much more.



All due respect you are in error here. I actually ENJOYED Xorian, Xorian2, and Enemy Within. Shadow King is actually kinda fun too. I like Bladebarriering 20+ ghosty mobs at once it's fun:)



They just think they hate them because they run them a lot.


Sorry, pet peeve, keep your statements off my thoughts. Talk about what I say, but don't tell other people and especially not me what I think.

Vox

Daze
06-30-2007, 12:49 AM
Two for the Forge and Titan. Been duoed many times.

Two for VON5, and two for VON 6 - and only because of the pillars. Velah herself is easily soloed.



explain to me how 2 ppl can make it through the water area (red) in TF?

Also as far as a ****ing contest ... Riott never claimed to be THE self proclaimed most raiding guild. It was discovered by someone else. If other guilds raid more then us ... then guess what? Your the most raidenest guild ever!

More importantly, I for 1 only care about seeing this game improve. Not trying to trump other guilds on other servers in a forum where all of our claims are unsubstantiated.


To clarify to Gimpster: My answers for Riott's latest poll (least favorite quests) were:

1) Freshen the Air (I would never even touch this pain in the butt on elite if it werent for favor)

2) Old Grey Garl quest series (even +5 lvls over the quest just getting past the ambush to get in can be a pain)

3) Any flagging quest ... the repeated ones are easy due to repetition and the others are way to long for a single flag (just my opinion)

4) Threnal .... who's brilliant idea was it to put a bunch of rusties and slimes in with a bunch of hard hitting mobs? GDit gonna start keeping my starter weapons and stocking up on greatclubs from the vendors.

.... the list goes on but those are my top few. As you can see the raiding stuff is 3rd. .... a few that didnt make my list : The Pit, Tears of Dhakan, Taming the Flames, Scoundrels Run etc. etc. etc.

So as you can see we arent just talking about raids in TA ... we discuss it all. Although admittedly ... after getting the favor ... what's the point of doing that quest again?

Jaysensen
06-30-2007, 12:55 AM
Go through Blue instead. PM me if you want a quick runthrough, though there are a few threads around that have the run through posted.

I DO bring two plus normally, since its waaaaaaay faster. But I have duoed TF with a WF Fighter, on my Ranger. [Edit: this was POST Cometfall adjustment]

Gimpster
06-30-2007, 01:07 AM
explain to me how 2 ppl can make it through the water area (red) in TF?
Basically you don't. Just get the medallion, and run someone as a ghost through the other halls while the other guy rezzes.

Tavok
06-30-2007, 01:14 AM
After all the chatter and opinions on raids I did a remedial survey among the most prolific raiders in the game.

In Merlask's recent survey Aundair ranked far and away the most prolific raiding server.

Of that server The Twilight Avengers are the most prolific raiding guild.
I happen to be a part of that guild.

As a guild we raid the 3 majors on average 20 times a week. (not counting Tempest Spine)

This gives us a lot experience with the quests, the bugs, the flagging, and reflagging like no other collective guild in the game.

Since we know about raid discussion in Turbine, both past and present, we're offering our views from the most raid active guild in the game.

================================================

1 ) Day timers are fine. Extending day timers past what they are now is probably not a good idea. The issue with quick repetition is not in the timers, but it's within the raid itself.

2 ) Difficulty needs to be ramped up. We understand that familiarity lowers the difficulty rating. And leveling likewise does this in straight up fights. More HP, More AC, More attack, higher level gear make a difference.

Difficulty can be ramped up several ways. Mostly though smarter mobs, or the addition of more mobs. And the removal of bugs. (ie: cleric safe spot in VoN 6)

3 ) Reflagging via quests is bad. Annoying, redundant, and basically boring/lame.

I ran a survey of the most hated quests in the game among our guild members.
The tops were' DQ reflagging, and VoN reflagging. (offered as collective choices)
After that came the Pit.

Bottom line is we want Raids to require Raiding. Let Quests require Questing.

First let me say we are ALL in agreement, that we do not want the elimination of reflagging simply to benefit the ease or quickness of the actual quest.

Quite the Contrary in fact.
Were in agreement, that the original access to the raid Via Questing is a FINE IDEA!!! ALA The Twilight Forge...

A set of quests which must be completed once in order to access the Raid content is ideal. Then a RAID which carries the group toward a final encounter is another great idea. What we don't like is the mindless repetition of questing to reflag for the raid. It's boring, and it's old, and it will drive players away from raiding, and from the game.

This is where StormReaver Fails..... It's far to easy to repeat, and is thus an operation in milking a cow. And this does not carry the spirit of raiding at all. This is farming. This needs a PreRaid quest badly. The ideal one woulda involved the Dragons at the end of Gianthold Tor.
Why this wasn't done is very surprising.

The Demon Queen also fails in this regard, with the exception of the Reflagging. In our perfect world the DQ raid would be alot more difficult to begin with and Against the Demon Queen/Circle of Eternity would be re modified to a Raid encounter Prequel to the Demon Queen raid.

4 ) Expand upon your raid content and build upon what you have.
Let Raids allow you to Flag for Another Raid. So there is a sense of progression to Raiding. And not just singular story arcs.

I hate to bring up EQ but raid progression they had a handle on, despite some very valid mistakes. Their progression path made sense and allowed those who enjoyed raiding to progress in that manner.

5 ) Loot system, honestly we're fine with that. Chest loot for Preraids, with the Glyph Chest for the Major Bosses/Finales. it's working fine for us. We have an internal system for rewarding those and it's working good.

6 ) Puzzles Vs. Combat.Toss up, we like both.

We feel The Twilgiht Forge and the Titan are about the best combo. However, we woulda like a more smash Mouth fight with the Titan than the small percentage we do get to fight him. If we had to fight him for 50% of his life then it would be ideal.

Reaver is pretty good, Puzzle is very easy though. Probably should checked to see if there wasn't a sure fire way to beat it every time though. But we like having to tolerate his attacks for a long time. This was done well.

VoN is a toss up. Part 5 was fine, puzzles and fighting. VoN 6 was done poorly. The puzzle/problem of the pillars plays agains the climax of the fight.

And with the "Safe Spot" ont he VoN 6 platform, the Velah fight is WAY anticlimactic. And the Dragon should moved/flown during the fight as well.

7 ) Randomness should be considered.

Something not really seen too often. The mastermind game sorta hints to this in that the end isn't always the same. So you can't just pick the same colors.

You've installed randomness into DQ part 4 however and Chamber of Raiyum.
Working that sorta randomness into a Final encounter would ramp up difficulty especially if the raid is under duress. They'd better pay attention.

8 ) Raid quests without Glyph chests are fine. (ala Temepst Spine) Let risk = reward though. I remember when Irestone Inlet was a Raid. It was a lot of fun.

=================================================

Basically in review,

We don't mind the initial quest flagging.

We dislike the constant reflagging.

We like Raid quests Prior to End Raid encoutners.

We like more difficulty in the form of tougher fights, and puzzles under duress.
(lailat would be IDEAL if she didn't have Overrun)
(Velah would be ideal if she could move/fly)
(Titan Would be ideal if we had to fight him for a greater precentage of his life)
(Reaver is good)

We are fine with reset timers and the Glyph system of loot.

We'd like to see raids build upon each other via flags/requirements.


Anyway, hope this gives you devs some insight to what we like.
And what we feel is hindering the fun.
As usual feel free to contact us/me with any questions.

We'd really like to help you guys make raiding more fun and challenging.

And for the record, the Titan raid was seen as the closest Raid to ideal amongst our guild members. Good length, good challenge, good finale, with good rewards. And NO reflagging.

I'm gonna agree with Yaga here. While the survey is really nicely done, and I agree with 100% of it, don't let the "we are the biggest, best raiding guild EVA" kinda thing get in the way that, other people, on other servers, do raid (unbelieve as that is). Obviously Merlask didn't level a toon to 14 on every server and do raids with every guild within that server, she has no way of knowing with the exception of tells. I raid probably just as much as you guys, and while I am not in TA, or Aundair, I raid. And to have someone else proclaiming "people sent tells about us, we are the best raiding guild" is kinda spitting in my (and other people's I would assume) face. Claiming that you have experience like no other guild in the game is blantantly wrong, you have no clue how much others raid. Just because someone didn't get some forum acknowledgements about their guild doesn't mean they don't raid just as much or even more than you.

Vox
06-30-2007, 01:18 AM
I'm gonna agree with Yaga here. While the survey is really nicely done, and I agree with 100% of it, don't let the "we are the biggest, best raiding guild EVA" kinda thing get in the way that, other people, on other servers, do raid (unbelieve as that is). Obviously Merlask didn't level a toon to 14 on every server and do raids with every guild within that server, she has no way of knowing with the exception of tells. I raid probably just as much as you guys, and while I am not in TA, or Aundair, I raid. And to have someone else proclaiming "people sent tells about us, we are the best raiding guild" is kinda spitting in my (and other people's I would assume) face. Claiming that you have experience like no other guild in the game is blantantly wrong, you have no clue how much others raid. Just because someone didn't get some forum acknowledgements about their guild doesn't mean they don't raid just as much or even more than you.

Any chance after that terrible overquote you could discuss the actual content of the post instead of one sidenote? Or possibly read the entire thread and note that this issue has already been addressed by several TA members.

Vox

Tavok
06-30-2007, 01:24 AM
Any chance after that terrible overquote you could discuss the actual content of the post instead of one sidenote? Or possibly read the entire thread and note that this issue has already been addressed by several TA members.

Vox

Overquote? Yea I'm sure that took a lot of effort to move the screen down a bit so you could see my writing.

The TA members in question addressed the fact that it was self-proclaiming, which I know it was not. But the fact that someone else proclaimed it, doesn't make it true either. There, short and sweet, no tedious scrolling.

Back to the issue, I did state I agree with this post. The only thing I might change is the raid system, I don't mind the little things that allow you to pick up the loot. But isn't there some way to tell which loot to absolutely exclude? Such as, theres obviously no WF in this group, but lets go ahead and give them 2 docents anyways.

Vox
06-30-2007, 01:35 AM
I think I misread your post as agreeing with merlask's survey. I sit corrected.

That being said, it's just polite to edit out portions of an exceptionally long quote to get at the parts you are really talking about. It also makes it much easier to understand when you can see the conversation as A, B, C, etc. vs. Ahfgjhgalhgasgashsf, Bjkasgskjsgsuwrw, C.

Vox

Tavok
06-30-2007, 01:37 AM
I think I misread your post as agreeing with merlask's survey. I sit corrected.

That being said, it's just polite to edit out portions of an exceptionally long quote to get at the parts you are really talking about. It also makes it much easier to understand when you can see the conversation as A, B, C, etc. vs. Ahfgjhgalhgasgashsf, Bjkasgskjsgsuwrw, C.

Vox

Yea. But its late :p

AEschyl
06-30-2007, 09:36 AM
i'm not really one for ****ing matches.. just simply clarification.

there is no "best" or "most prolific" raiding guild.

it's all about how long your characters have to wait after re-setting on a raid until you raid it again (the ability to do so, not saying you HAVE to run every raid once every 3 days, just be able to).

if i were given the choice of:

being in a guild that raided 100 times in a month, but due to needed-class restrictions, guild-makeup or whatever...

or

being in a guild that enable me to raid the moment my raid timer expired, every time?

i choose option 2.

(and to the OP: there are guilds on other servers (servers that are thought of as "Care Bear" servers) that raid more than 20 times per week as a guild-total, i was the guild leader of one not too long ago.)

Frodo_Lives
06-30-2007, 11:07 AM
Bottom line is raids should not be based around or built for the players or guilds that raid 20 times or 100 times a week.

Most players do not raid that often, do not have access to a group that raids that often, and unless that is what they want to dedicate their DDO time towards that goal it won't happen.

If you are bored with raids cause they are too easy then run them with just your starter equipment then. Find ways to make them harder because if you have run the dragon 200 times then of course it's going to be easy and it won't matter if you are the best player in the world or a lousy one that has gotten good at the raid simply by repitition.

If the raids are made to "challange" those that run it over and over and over again then they will be made down right impossible for those that don't.

I don't mind that the good raid loot is still pretty hard to get, I just hate the human decision making that goes into deciding who gets what. Some guilds are great to run with, others will screw you out of raid loot (or even a shot at raid loot) with a second thought.

Daze
06-30-2007, 04:54 PM
Bottom line is raids should not be based around or built for the players or guilds that raid 20 times or 100 times a week.

Most players do not raid that often, do not have access to a group that raids that often, and unless that is what they want to dedicate their DDO time towards that goal it won't happen.

If you are bored with raids cause they are too easy then run them with just your starter equipment then. Find ways to make them harder because if you have run the dragon 200 times then of course it's going to be easy and it won't matter if you are the best player in the world or a lousy one that has gotten good at the raid simply by repitition.

If the raids are made to "challange" those that run it over and over and over again then they will be made down right impossible for those that don't.

I don't mind that the good raid loot is still pretty hard to get, I just hate the human decision making that goes into deciding who gets what. Some guilds are great to run with, others will screw you out of raid loot (or even a shot at raid loot) with a second thought.

Valid point, however, I have never played an MMO that is more geared toward the casual player then DDO .... which makes it difficult to stay interested for some ppl.

The baseline non uber player being able to raid has already been addressed in other posts. Now with that in mind making the quest more random and not using single arc story lines for every raid wouldnt change the difficulty (except in repitition) or exclude the casual gamer.

As far as entertaining ourselves by doing the titan 6 man and using starter gear etc. We do that already and honestly we shouldnt have to do that to keep ourselves entertained.

My favorite raid was the titan when it was unknown whether we would beat it or not. The strat where we'd beat it about 5/6 times.


Back to the issue, I did state I agree with this post. The only thing I might change is the raid system, I don't mind the little things that allow you to pick up the loot. But isn't there some way to tell which loot to absolutely exclude? Such as, theres obviously no WF in this group, but lets go ahead and give them 2 docents anyways.

no kidding ..... 2 docent giveaways to the cleric are kinda lame. At least in TA we always get a PLS point (provided we're successful). I would be really bitter if I were in a random roll guild.

Dragonhyde
06-30-2007, 06:33 PM
my fave raid is still Tempest for the ease of running it at the drop of a hat. I feel the timers are right for every raid but the reaver...this one actually should have a wait timer longer than the others because of the lack of having to reprep the raid. i am thinking once a week instead of 2 and a half days...but that is just my opinion.

Morgoth_the_Enemy
06-30-2007, 08:02 PM
(and to the OP: there are guilds on other servers (servers that are thought of as "Care Bear" servers) that raid more than 20 times per week as a guild-total, i was the guild leader of one not too long ago.)

lol Aesch. I thought about posting how I mostly agreed with his thoughts, but because I was from a server that Merlask ranked as a low raid server, I clearly had no idea what I was talking about.

Conejo
06-30-2007, 08:11 PM
We like more difficulty in the form of tougher fights, and puzzles under duress.
(lailat would be IDEAL if she didn't have Overrun)
(Velah would be ideal if she could move/fly)
(Titan Would be ideal if we had to fight him for a greater precentage of his life)
(Reaver is good)

Velah would be ideal if the whole setup around her wasn't such a piece of ****.

raids don't need to be tougher when they already have absurd arbitrary goals and conditions within.

Tavok
06-30-2007, 09:50 PM
The baseline non uber player being able to raid has already been addressed in other posts. Now with that in mind making the quest more random and not using single arc story lines for every raid wouldnt change the difficulty (except in repitition) or exclude the casual gamer.

Just because that points have already been address does not mean that someone should not include their opinion because someone has already stated their own opinion, otherwise, what is hte point of the forums in the first place?

Riorik
06-30-2007, 10:47 PM
Just out of curiosity, how many players do you have in your guild that allows you to manage 20 raids per week?

<begin bragging>
In the final few months before the Lucky Knights disbanded on Fernia, we had a steady membership of 20-30 active members between December and April of 2007 (more towards the end). With a player count of 22-25, we hit an end of month total of 78 raids completed in February. Our individual top raiders were in the 30's and 40's. Please keep in mind these were only the official raids that counted for our DKP system (50% Marilith, 40% Titan, 10% Dragon). All raids were always complete raids...if we killed Velah, we ALWAYS started from the beginning of VON5). We had a few individuals that although they were members, tended to run with a dedicated (unofficial) group - and they'd do 6-7 raids a week. Unofficially, this would have put us a bit over 100.

My own impression is, that Fernia has a medium (or smaller) sized player population and the guilds here tend to be smaller. I'm curious how our player counts vs raid counts compare.
</end bragging>

While we have not done any such survey as yourself, my own opinion is that the availability of the Reaver Raid has altered opinions. While I still enjoy zerging through the Marilith prep, it is a bit routine and monotonous. I think it's a great raid, however, compared to how little prep (none) it takes to do the Reaver once you've done it all...well, it changes your opinion a bit. I think the only saving grace of VON1-4, Chains/Raiyum/Offering is that I'm running it with people that really know the quests well, and even with substandard/suboptimal parties (2-3 players), we zerg through it all effortlessly in minimum time...thus minimizing the pain of re-running it yet again.

As much as I'd hate to deprive other players of the pleasure (the success) of learning to do something well, and being rewarded for doing it well - perhaps you're right. Perhaps it's time for success in other raids & quests to affect how much prep you have to do?

What if, for example, if Character XXXX slew the Titan, they no longer need to run VON4 (I have no idea why, I'm just picking a quest) - so when they complete VON3, they're now ready for VON5. If Character YYYY slew the Reaver, that particular character no longer ever needs to run VON1, etc.

I do think the random raid quest idea could be rather awesome - and I do think Turbine is moving towards that as we write. Things are being tested, techniques developed, etc.

Tavok
06-30-2007, 10:55 PM
As I recall, our guild (~25 players) ran 78 raids in February 2007. While I no longer have access to the precise official count, I recall approximately 50% Marilith, 40% Titan and 10% Dragon. Also keep in mind that as a rule, we were exploit free - every Dragon run was ALWAYS from the very beginning of VON5 thru to Killing Velah. Further, these were only the sanctioned guild runs that applied to our DKP system.

These days with the Reaver raid, the numbers mean a bit less when they're aggregated. Currently, for example, I've slacked off and only have 3 Reaver ready characters. I could hit 30 raids per month just doing this one raid.

Nax

This is what I mean when I say theres obviously other raiding guilds out there. I totally disagree with Merlask's decision to name TA as "the most prolific raiding guild". I do not even think there should be a title such as this one. I would even go so far as to say that they were only named this because of their forum presence and rep. No other guild in the game has their kind of forum presense, I will give them that, but in no way are they the only raiding guild in the game. (for the record, I don't care if this is beating the dead horse, I really believe this was a totally wrong decision on merlask's part. The rest of her servey was ok though.)

Conejo
06-30-2007, 11:07 PM
This is what I mean when I say theres obviously other raiding guilds out there. I totally disagree with Merlask's decision to name TA as "the most prolific raiding guild".

Merlask didn't name TA anything.

Merlask decided (i don't know why) that Aundair was the most raid-focused of all servers.

Riott is pointing out that TA's primary focus is raiding.

Cowdenicus
06-30-2007, 11:23 PM
Fernia > all other servers.

Learn it, live it, love it.

Its like we are on FIRE BABY!!!!!

Merlask
06-30-2007, 11:35 PM
*ears perk up*

Now now, no spatting... remember

1. I have not named ANY guilds for ANYTHING. Namely because there are countless ones out there and to name one guild means I have to start getting an inbox filled with 'but my guild such-n-such...' etc.

2. The high portion of raiding content concerning said server is based directly off feedback from them and from observations of them... and what it means is, they showed more positive mention for raiding than other things they could be doing... it does not mean that they DO more raiding than anyone else, it means that of their population, a heavy portion of them were interested in raiding specifically, and not as much in things like:
events, roleplaying, pugs, auction house activities, character builds, etc.

3. I have stated it before time and time again, I will restate it here: You are able to find ANYTHING on ANY server in terms of what you are looking for out of DDO. The trick is what is the concentration of the players in the given locations to doing the same things as you. I for one could care less about raiding - I've seen the dragon twice in my entire DDO existance, never even flagged for the Titan, have no intention of seeing the Reaver any time soon, and the only time I saw a Maralith was in POP or +Sir's spawning... so... obviously it must be something else holding my interest in the game, and other players interested in the things I am, that is keeping me here.

Torroth
06-30-2007, 11:47 PM
Very nice post as a matter of fact, couldn't agree more with the points made. And I would like to say that while I have not done any formal survey, a good portion of my raiding guildmates on Riedra (The Trinity Guild's Holy Warriors) would agree as well. We are more casual raiders, taking plenty of joy in running only 2 "official" guild raids a month and allowing our members to fill in the gaps, but we do enjoy the time we spend in the raids and these suggestions would are so spot on.

Daze
06-30-2007, 11:52 PM
Just because that points have already been address does not mean that someone should not include their opinion because someone has already stated their own opinion, otherwise, what is hte point of the forums in the first place?

mainly because I dont care to waste my time addressing issues that I dont have an opinion differing from those already posted ..... it was my post. I didnt feel the need to go on that topic any further then I did and felt the need to explain that.

By all means voice your opinion ... but what exactly is the point if there's 1 post and 99 saying the same thing all over again?

Do you have something constructive to say? or shall we continue with the hijacking of the thread toward all of Dazes posts suck?

HorridForm
07-01-2007, 12:06 AM
I remember when module 1 went live. It took the majority precent of the player base the whole rest of the month to complete von 1-4 let alone brave 5. I dont recall when Velah was killed game wide, but I do know that the countless hours spent altering the Dragon Raid was time taken away from module 2.

In 16 months of development we got 5 raids. When I began playing DDO I looked to the future of the game and thought by this point we would be looking at 8 raids and possibly disucssions on what the epic levels might look like. Its sad to know how much time has been waisted on nerfing the content.

We should just move along to bigger and better things. I would like to see 24man raids that require so much team synergy that soloing is impossible. At this point the raids are so easy that they can all be 3 manned by experienced players.

Now if we had 8 raids available and the timers were set to 1 week then we could still raid a different dungeon each day. This would slow down our ability to master the raids so quickly.

On top of that all of the raids should've required a minimum of 6 players to complete and if you fail the raid then you should still be set on the timer. This would prevent players from attempting short man raids that they are more likely to fail. The distribution of raid items would be slower and more rewarding for those in possession of the items.

Examples of faults on the Reaver Raid. The reaver's ability to alter gravity was devestating. Combined with the Air Elementals disrupting your party it can be a lethal combination, but lets face it! The Air Elementals are easily crowd control and killed. Now if the reaver used other abilities to disrupt the players then they couldn't manage the 45+ elementals with a single sorc. A fine example would be a mass solid fog effect that blinds players. Now this ability can be prevented with Freedom obviously, but that would be 1 more aspect that the players would have to include in thier strategy. The reavers thunderclap could also deafen casters inflicting a 20% spell failure. Now the players are forced to communicate more or they will lose vital crowd control. Tornado like winds could push the players out of a position where all of the CC is set up! To further emphasize the Reavers ability to control weather he could induce heat waves that fatigue and exhaust players slowing movement down.


The spiked ceiling that we navigate through while flying should be randomized to avoid players from becoming to familiar with the exact path to take. The levers should be gaurded by a mob and or a trap!

The puzzle room defenses are way to easy to overcome. A single mob type that cannot be CCed or DMed would add enough disruption to prevent single casters from dominating the enviroment.

Dont get me wrong I love this game! The raid concepts are genius, but flawed. I just wish that more thought went into making the raids difficult enough to require larger groups, but not overbearing for less experienced players. Hope the next raid hit home on this.

Ekental
07-01-2007, 12:20 AM
So... sidestepping the ****ing contests here..

I like the idea of Universal Flagging:
That is to say, doing one raid, or quest, enables you to from then on, skip the prep for another... perhaps lower lvl raid.
I.e. Completing the reaver lets you bypass the raid reqs for VoN, with the caveat that you must have already have completed VoN normally at least once.

As for ease of raids, as it is now, even the casual players find it somewhat boring to run a raid such as.. VoN, since the gear that everyone has now at lvl 14 as a "casual" player exceeds or at least matches the best lvl 10's when VoN was released. Lets not also forget to factor in the higher stats/spells/etc. that you get for being 14.

Randomness:
Maybe the newer raids need a more.. interactive element? It's been mentioned the mastermind puzzle is possibly the most entertaining aspect in the reaver raid now, or perhaps getting fly from the reaver.

Either way, why not bump that to the next step and throw in something such as.. .a ball... that will roll around the map, and force the players to catch it as part of the raid? You can throw in whatever gauntlet of distractions etc. to make the process more exciting.
So, before people start listing out what they dislike (balls being one of them), this is just an example of an element to add to future raids that may make them more sustainable.

Side Note: Velah
Yeah.. it took the player base a little more than a week? to beat Velah, compared to the 1.5 days for the Reaver. While I understand where this view is coming from, I don't think it's valid in these two cases. Velah was first beaten with some dubious tactics, such as MM behind a conveniently safe rock... while the Stormreaver, despite being beaten faster, was actually completed.. "correctly"

Tavok
07-01-2007, 12:50 AM
Merlask didn't name TA anything.

Merlask decided (i don't know why) that Aundair was the most raid-focused of all servers.

Riott is pointing out that TA's primary focus is raiding.

Then it was self-proclaiming. He didn't say that your primary focus was raiding, which I don't doubt that fact. He said, of all the guilds on Aundair, we are the ones that raid the most, which must mean we are the most prolific raiding guild out there because Aundair is the most prolific raiding server. Blatantly untrue.

And Merlask, I don't mean to dis your survey, a lot of good ideas and observations where made from it. But you said yourself, that you can't find this stuff all over DDO? Why then claim server's as "such and such" if any server has a given amount of anything?

Vox
07-01-2007, 12:57 AM
Why ask why? Drink Bud Dry!

Seriously... we got it. Other guilds raid a lot. cool. moving on.

Merlask's census was intended to give people an idea of where they might find an environment more suited to their tastes. If you're unhappy that your raidiness wasn't fairly represented in said census, next time there's a census, speak up on the subject. In the meantime... move on, or make a post proclaiming your raidiness to the DDO metaverse... preferably in the general discussion forum.. and not in a thread intended to try and improve raids in general.

Sheesh...

Vox

Riggs
07-01-2007, 04:40 AM
Signed on the reflagging.

Raid loot mechanic is brutal for anyone who doesnt raid 20 times a week.(which is quite a lot of people).

That a 12 person raid drops 2 items - 75% of which are utter **** - makes almost anyone who does the raid annoyed and ticked off that they went through the whole long process and got nothing but some level 4 crud from chests - even the end chest sitting beside the glyph chest in a level 10 raids drops level 4 items.

Right now, you just have to read the hundreds of posts about people trying to do raids with as few people as possible to realize; that in a game that is supposed to be cooperative, and social - raids only cause groups to exclude as many people as possible - so that you have a better chance of getting items. This is not good for the game.

Raid loot needs to be seriously re-examined. At least half of the items in each raid are completely and utterly useless. Putting useless items as part of the mix means that it is possible to do something dozens of times and never see the one item you actually want. Some guilds, and some servers, have the population to raid and give items to people who are 'in line for the next item'. But being on a lower pop server, many 'guild raids' turn into pug raids, because even getting 6 people can be a chore sometimes. So if you allow pugs to roll then it is possible to run something many times and never get the item you want.

This is very far from fun, very, very far. The fact that you have to run pre-quests every time makes it like a trip to the dentist.

The other thing that would be a nice change was NOT having more puzzles, but instead having more combat. Make the fights hard. But sitting around for 20 min messing with a laser to shoot the Titan, just to melee him after for like 10 seconds is really...boring, unfun, a letdown...pick a phrase - but its certainly not enjoyable.

Also, giving raid monsters MORE overrun/trip with dcs so high that you automatically fail is also really unfun. Doing a raid for the first time where you spend 90% of the time on your back, in between dying, makes a lot of people say "Hey this was really annoying, I think I wont come back because most of the end rewards stink anyway, and chances are I wont roll to beat the other people...so why bother"

People who raid a lot have got things down smooth. But I have seen some horrific pugs raids, and being in one can make you really want to quit the game for a while. If the main end content is that annoying....

Trip/overrun are way overused, and way too powerful. The most recent two raids both use this extensively.

Raids where you fight things would be a lot more fun than lying on your back, or standing around for an hour waiting for someone in another room to do a puzzle.

So yeah, make all raid prequests one time for flagging, then you can run the one pre-quest and the raid instead of 3-4 more prequests each and every time.

Rog
07-01-2007, 06:06 AM
4 man the dragon on elite then i might be impressed run 20 raids a week on normal man really despert for some outdate loot there are a few but most raids i run are pugs and when we run guild raids we figue that we have solid players so we run it on elite and hope for the best which goes u have been hit for a 160 points of fire dam by breath weopon and so on nope quess we aint that uber yet cant 4 man dragon on elite. as for titan probable could and the demon queen which is your best chance at loot becouse u can 2 man her not that we are uber uber server like some but i know she can be solo becouse i know peeps that solo her.
lunarsong
from the mysterous realms of khyber

sieg33
07-01-2007, 06:14 AM
Raiding would be much better in this game if they were like everquest. The endless flagging from that game is not necessary but some actual raid progression and raid flags would be very good.

Riot
07-01-2007, 02:26 PM
A coupel of things...

If you are stuck on me saying we are the most prolific raiding guild...

GET OVER IT.... if you raid more than us.. grats, YOU are the most prolific raiding guild. I have no desire for the ****ing match.
I care more about the game than your ego being bruised.

To answer questions asked.
There's 50+ unique individuals in TA.
20 raids a week is a LOW average. We sometimes have over 30, but I estimated for weeks with holidays. and btw every single raid we have is logged as well, so we keep very good records.(due to our PLS system)

Those records DO NOT INCLUDE TEMPEST SPINE... which would jack up the raid average a bit....

If you raid more than that.. Congrats, Please survey your own people and pitch in to the discussion... I care not for the ****ing match.

I only stressed our frequency to establish that we are prolific, and we do raid alot. It goes to the heart of credibility.

Now lets get back to providing customer feedback please, thanks.

Tavok
07-01-2007, 02:34 PM
Why ask why? Drink Bud Dry!

Seriously... we got it. Other guilds raid a lot. cool. moving on.

Merlask's census was intended to give people an idea of where they might find an environment more suited to their tastes. If you're unhappy that your raidiness wasn't fairly represented in said census, next time there's a census, speak up on the subject. In the meantime... move on, or make a post proclaiming your raidiness to the DDO metaverse... preferably in the general discussion forum.. and not in a thread intended to try and improve raids in general.

Sheesh...

Vox

Thats fine, if you insist I will stop proving my point and saying whats on my mind on these forums, which I suppose is what they are intended for. But I would like to point out that I talked to Merlask herself when she visited Mabar, and I talked about how much raiding we do, which was a lot. So, yes, in fact, I did speak up. Its not an issue of my raidiness or whatever, its the fact that you guys really aren't the center of the raid universe which is what Riot's thread seemed to show to ME. (Notice: me, myself, not you.)

Riot
07-01-2007, 02:37 PM
Its not an issue of my raidiness or whatever, its the fact that you guys really aren't the center of the raid universe which is what Riot's thread seemed to show to ME.
Fine.. we aren't.. YOU are... that make it better?
If you want the title.. take it.. it's all yours.

Garth_of_Sarlona
07-01-2007, 03:58 PM
The devs have said that they learnt from player feedback about having to do pre-quests over and over (DQ and VONs in particular) and they made Stormreaver different. I think they went too far - someone's idea of a pre-raid would have been nice. Titan is the right balance of pre-raid/raid IMHO.

I also like someone's idea of alternate routes to raid readiness - you could have 12 quests and you need to do 3 to get ready each time?

Raid progression would be nice too - but never played a game with it but it sounds like a good idea.

Raids too easy? Try naked raids to make them more interesting! Naked POP is fun too :)

Garth

p.s. Simple idea to make raids 12 man - put 12 switches in that all have to be pulled at the same time?

etelan
07-01-2007, 04:30 PM
Thanks for the post Riot. I agreed 100% on the summarized statements except for difficulty changes.

We like more difficulty in the form of tougher fights, and puzzles under duress.
I don't want to see more difficulty. Some of the raids took us several failed attempts before completion and we don't want to block off pugs and more casual playstyles from completing raids. I say the difficult is great, but we should have insentive to play on hard and elite. Hard and elite should be significantly tougher, but also give better rewards (perhaps 3 loot items for hard and 4 for elite).

We are fine with reset timers and the Glyph system of loot.
Agreed. Like I said above I would like to see more gylphs for harder difficulties. If the system is changed over to an item collection that is a good idea as well. Players will no longer get absolutely nothing towards their loot on a successful run. However, collection items should be handed out on every run and like ore collection should not be based on the number of group members to encourage players who can win while understaffed.

Hand of the Black Tower - Aundair

Riorik
07-01-2007, 09:44 PM
To answer questions asked.
There's 50+ unique individuals in TA.
20 raids a week is a LOW average. We sometimes have over 30, but I estimated for weeks with holidays. and btw every single raid we have is logged as well, so we keep very good records.(due to our PLS system)

Those records DO NOT INCLUDE TEMPEST SPINE... which would jack up the raid average a bit....


That answers my question - these days we're actually a bit behind this average - I think it's all the time we're spending collecting (I mean looting) relics & scales. That and "loot weekends" tend to put serious crimps in our raiding schedule.

What I'd say is, our numbers seem to be comparable. I'd actually guess that a smaller guild might have an advantage. I'm not sure how much it really matters if one group does X and another does X+1. I'm not real certain I'm in it for the items so much as doing it with friends.

Our records only recorded the "real raids" - TS never hit the radar.

Frodo_Lives
07-01-2007, 11:55 PM
We like more difficulty in the form of tougher fights, and puzzles under duress.
I don't want to see more difficulty. Some of the raids took us several failed attempts before completion and we don't want to block off pugs and more casual playstyles from completing raids. I say the difficult is great, but we should have insentive to play on hard and elite. Hard and elite should be significantly tougher, but also give better rewards (perhaps 3 loot items for hard and 4 for elite).


I don't see how this would solve anything, if you get more raid loot for hard or elite then I don't think anyone would run anything but elite, and it does nothing but reduce the 2 maning to 4 people raids. And if you are running a raid on elite with still less then 12 then you want to run with players you know and trust. I think that this would exagerate the problem with casual raiding vs. hardcore raiders instead of the other way around.

I think that getting better non raid loot on hard and elite would be a better way to go. On raids the end chests (not the warded ones) should have loot +2 for hard and loot +3 for elite. This gives at least a little incentive to run it at a harder level but still does not eliminate the benifits from running a raid on normal.

What really needs to happen is to find a way to make raids more friendly to 12 manning instead of less people, which right now means better shot at raid loot.

Riggs
07-02-2007, 01:10 AM
What really needs to happen is to find a way to make raids more friendly to 12 manning instead of less people, which right now means better shot at raid loot.

Until every person who participates gets a raid item, the 2 glyph system means that most guilds will never bring in pugs, and most raids will be with as few people as possible.

Both mean that casual players can enjoy almost never getting a good raid in, or ever getting raid items.

The current system is designed to make players exclude others. Considering the steadily declining populations - really someone might want to change those designs so that people WANT to have others join, and not have it REDUCE the loot they get.

If you have been on 10 dragon raids lets say - and are still trying to get the sword, chances are that most people will be trying to 4 man it just so IF the thing finally drops you actually can get it for once.

Fun system? I would say no.

On other things, every raid should pretty much be like the Titan for setup, just not the buggy parts, puzzles, and the part where most of the party is spending 20 minutes sitting around waiting for someone to shoot a laser at it 6 times just to be allowed to go hit something.

Krell
07-02-2007, 01:46 AM
2 ) Difficulty needs to be ramped up. We understand that familiarity lowers the difficulty rating. And leveling likewise does this in straight up fights. More HP, More AC, More attack, higher level gear make a difference.



I agree with most points except this one. Not everyone is fortunate enough to regularly be in groups that know the raid well, are equiped, and prepared for it. I've been in 12 or so Reaver raids. Most were pugs, a few were guild. I would say only two went well with some others that finally succeeded after multiple wipes.

If raids were made more difficult in order to be a challenge to some of the greatest raiding guilds in all of DDO, then the rest of us in average groups would be left behind in a mire of frustration and dissapointment.

CSFurious
07-02-2007, 05:28 AM
anyone would get bored if they ran the quests that many times, if you did not get bored, i would classify you as either very boring or clinically insane


Bottom line is raids should not be based around or built for the players or guilds that raid 20 times or 100 times a week.

Most players do not raid that often, do not have access to a group that raids that often, and unless that is what they want to dedicate their DDO time towards that goal it won't happen.

If you are bored with raids cause they are too easy then run them with just your starter equipment then. Find ways to make them harder because if you have run the dragon 200 times then of course it's going to be easy and it won't matter if you are the best player in the world or a lousy one that has gotten good at the raid simply by repitition.

If the raids are made to "challange" those that run it over and over and over again then they will be made down right impossible for those that don't.

I don't mind that the good raid loot is still pretty hard to get, I just hate the human decision making that goes into deciding who gets what. Some guilds are great to run with, others will screw you out of raid loot (or even a shot at raid loot) with a second thought.

CSFurious
07-02-2007, 05:32 AM
it is time for a 24-man raid as a previous poster suggested

Vox
07-02-2007, 06:36 AM
I agree with most points except this one. Not everyone is fortunate enough to regularly be in groups that know the raid well, are equiped, and prepared for it. I've been in 12 or so Reaver raids. Most were pugs, a few were guild. I would say only two went well with some others that finally succeeded after multiple wipes.

If raids were made more difficult in order to be a challenge to some of the greatest raiding guilds in all of DDO, then the rest of us in average groups would be left behind in a mire of frustration and dissapointment.

I would heartily approve of some sort of content that was designed to challenge the highest end players. The problem currently is that there is insufficient content to allow this seperation of content by skill level. I don't even care about better loot at this point. I would like to see content that is actually /HARD/ for the high end players. I felt like the quests for the previous level caps were fairly difficult. I don't feel that way about gianthold. I definitely don't feel that way about Gianthold Tor, or the Reaver raid.

Vox

Yaga_Nub
07-02-2007, 07:23 AM
Guys,

Sorry I haven't piped up since my first post, I've been busy with other stuff but let me apologize for starting the ****ing contest. The problem with the written word is you read into it the sound and intonation that you think the writer is using instead of just reading the words. So again I apologize to Riot for adding drama into his thread. Now on to the good stuff.

I was just thinking about a new flagging mechanism. I'm sure it's been proposed before and if it has then all credit goes to the person that mentioned it first but I haven't been able to find a post about it.

What if all the raids had this flaggin mechanism, to run the raid on normal/hard/elite, you had to run the flagging quests on normal/hard/elite and then you were done flagging for that level. So if I want to run SR raid on normal, I need to complete PoP, Madstone, the Crucible, and the pre-raid on normal, then I can run the SR raid on normal but nothing else. If I want to run the SR raid on hard, I need to complete all those quests on hard and so on. This allows for repetition of quests like Turbine wants but has a finite end to that repetition like the play base wants. I think you would still have to do VON5 and AtDQ each time you run those quests but I would gladly do that if I didn't have to do 4 and 3 flagging quest before hand.

Any thoughts on this?

stockwizard5
07-02-2007, 10:18 AM
<All of OPs Content>

To summarize: I Disagree - My Priorities:


1. Bugs, Exploits and Performance
2. Mechanics and Content (Classes, Races, Levels, Landscapes, Quests, Raids, Crafting, Housing, etc)
...
1,387,246. Getting Riot Loot Faster

Riot
07-02-2007, 10:44 AM
1. Bugs, Exploits and Performance
2. Mechanics and Content (Classes, Races, Levels, Landscapes, Quests, Raids, Crafting, Housing, etc)
...
1,387,246. Getting Riot Loot Faster

interpreted as,,,, "If I have nothing to add I might as well attack someone who makes me jealous."

Dude, if you only had a clue as to my loot patterns.
And since our loot system tracks that, I can say with certainty that you are way wrong.

On average you should expect to get loot 1 out of every 6 raids.
(12 people, 2 glyphs)
Via our system that would give you a score of 6 or less.... Since when you get something your score is lowered.

My score is 44. (roughly meaning I've run 44 raids without looting anything)
Greed is not a factor.
Your jealousy is flattering but misplaced.
take your jibes elsewhere.

stockwizard5
07-02-2007, 11:20 AM
interpreted as,,,, "If I have nothing to add

Re-Interpreted as ...

In MY opinion there are other priorities


1. Bugs, Exploits and Performance
2. Mechanics and Content (Classes, Races, Levels, Landscapes, Quests, Raids, Crafting, Housing, etc)

on which to spend scarce resources to maintain (and/or grow) the subscriber base which are more important than satisfying your desire for more raid loot. We call this feedback ;)

ghale
07-02-2007, 12:41 PM
Re-Interpreted as ...

In MY opinion there are other priorities

1. Bugs, Exploits and Performance
2. Mechanics and Content (Classes, Races, Levels, Landscapes, Quests, Raids, Crafting, Housing, etc)

on which to spend scarce resources to maintain (and/or grow) the subscriber base which are more important than satisfying your desire for more raid loot. We call this feedback ;)


You have raids listed as one of your priorities which this whole thread is about. People can deal with the minor annoyance of bugs if there is enough content to keep them busy. When there isn't enough content or challenge the bugs just further exaggerate the problem. I don't see why you feel jusitified in attacking others when you want what they want?

winnskier
07-02-2007, 12:42 PM
Aside from arguing over semantics I think this thread has created some good ideas for where we, the players, want DDO to head in regards to raiding.

As each new raid is released I think Turbine is gauging how people feel about the system they have created. Each raid seems to have a a somewhat different approach to flagging and running the raids. My favorite raid has been Twilight Forge since it was released...due to three things, 1) pre-flagging is not a requirement, 2) the pre-raid is intriguing and of good length, 3) the raid is (or was) challenging and also a good length.

I don't care as much for the loot as for the experience of the raid itself. The flagging quests for VON and DQ are interesting but the tedious nature of flagging takes away the accomplishment of completing a flag and makes it work. On the other hand, repetitive flagging allows new players to get the necessary flags to raid. I feel the answer is some combination of the flagging/raiding for the 4 major raids. Here are some things I enjoy about each of the raids:

1) Repetitive flagging such as VON or DQ is necessary to allow new players to become flagged.
2) A token system like the RF or DQ raids use, allows you to benefit from helping others flag. You gain nothing from running VON flagging quests if you are already flagged.
3) Raids should be proceeded by a pre-quest of proportionate length which is not a flag quest (e.g. VON5, preferrably with puzzles), this builds a nice arc into the raid making it more challenging and rewarding.
4) Raids should be challenging but satisfying for all members of the party (most raid strategies don't utilize most of the raid party, DQ is the best example of this)

I propose the use of a token system, similar to DQ in that each flagging attempt gives you a token to save for later. I think that these tokens should be provided for each flagging quest currently in the game. A combination of these tokens can then be turned in to complete "flagging" - the number of tokens would be a reduced number than the total number of quests (perhaps 4). Once flagged you could complete all 4 raids and would then need to repeat the "flagging" again.

This is just an idea off the top of my head but it would address my major problems with the flagging to a reasonable degree.

A_Sheep
07-02-2007, 01:17 PM
Nice post. I found it pretty interesting.

I totally agree on the Titan. I'd love to fight him more.

stockwizard5
07-02-2007, 01:28 PM
when you want what they want?

Riot's post wants substantial changes to existing raids that his guild alone is apparently qualifyed to suggest; I want new raids. Because of limited resources I in fact want the exact opposit of what he proposes. I want development focus on:


Fixing Bugs, Exploits and Performance Issues
New Content (Classes, Races, Levels, Landscapes, Quests, Raids, Crafting, Housing, etc)


I also disagree with Riot saying that I am "Jealous" and "Clueless" because I think 1 and 2 are higher priority than resolving his boredom from repeatedly running uber 14s through level 8 content. I would venture that subscription issues are not focused around cancelations from players who claim to raid 30 times per week.

Inkblack
07-02-2007, 01:32 PM
<snip> one run without loot nets 6 points yet 44 runs without loot nets 44 points - how does that add up? By the way, what does a non-guildy newbie running Velah for the first time get running with your guild? Is it the 2 out of 12 you say to expect?

I think there is some misunderstanding on the 44 runs stuff. The 44 points means Riott has run 44 more successful raids than he has spent points. If he has bought 30 items at 6 points each, then he has run 224 (44+180) successful raids total. That is grossly simplified, but a reasonable representation.

As for your second question, I can only think of 2 times when a non-guildie ran with us and that was a guildies wife. It is not because we don't allow PUG's in, but because we don't want to have bad blood because of our loot system. A PUG member would have the same chance of getting loot, but they would be starting with a PLS score of 1 (after completion, assuming their first run with TA). We know that makes them getting anything outstanding less likely, and we make it extremely clear using voice and party chat prior to the raid. The last thing we want is someone to come on the forums and say that TA screwed them out of loot... so we try to avoid anything like that situation. This is not to say that you can't get good loot with a low PLS score. Several times I have seen someone get raid loot on their first TA run -- including me.

A PLS type system is not for everyone. It is best within a guild, and I think it would be a disaster if we PUG'ed a lot. Turbine's glyph system asks everyone to come up with their own way of distributing loot. This one works for us. Your results may vary.

Ink

stockwizard5
07-02-2007, 02:23 PM
I nominate Inkblack as the new leader of The Twilight Avengers - your current leader's communication style is a disservice to your guild.


I can only think of 2 times when a non-guildie ran with us

Not as an attack but a serious question: I wonder if taking a couple weeks and having your guild PUG and Raid with substantial non-guild participation might influence your conclusions.

There is always a trade-off to be made - I think fixing bugs/exploits and creating new content should be the priority - Riot thinks differently and I disagree.

juniorpfactors
07-02-2007, 02:33 PM
thank God noone on Tharashk plays with a score system for raid loot...or even better let those that benefit mostly to make you character better roll on appropriate gear...if it doesnt make my character better i simply bowe out

score system= non starter......let the dice decide...my secret for dice"get naked,strip that armor...you will always roll better"

Riot
07-02-2007, 02:50 PM
I nominate Inkblack as the new leader of The Twilight Avengers - your current leader's communication style is a disservice to your guild.

<----- This is me giving you a well deserved finger.
Your inability to grasp a concept is not my failure in communication.
Had you simply stayed on topic and left the insult out of your post you might of had a better chance of a warmer reception. You made the rules, don't cry now that you've been called on the carpet.

In TA you get 1 point for a successful raid.
my PLS score of 44 means i've been on 44 raids Without receiving loot.
If I accept a loot on my next raid, number 45... I lose 6 points making my total 39.

Which makes my overall average 1 loot every 6 raids, with 39 EXTRA raids run.
12 people, 2 glyphs. average of 1 in 6. it's not rocket science.

Riot
07-02-2007, 02:53 PM
There is always a trade-off to be made - I think fixing bugs/exploits and creating new content should be the priority - Riot thinks differently and I disagree.
Another failure to listen on your part.

This post is about the future dynamics of raiding AS WELL AS, fixing the current state of affairs. Bugs/Exploits & Dynamics.

I don't see where you get off stating I said I don't want bugs/exploits fixed and new content.

juniorpfactors
07-02-2007, 02:56 PM
can I have a well deserved finger also? if you are throwing them around i will take one for the team....noone cares about your guild and points system...rational people just roll d100.....you either win or you dont

stockwizard5
07-02-2007, 03:21 PM
Your inability to grasp a concept is not my failure in communication.

I am simply unable to grasp your nonstop bragging and assertions about being uniquely qualified in this area - this is true


it's not rocket science.

No - its a system to assure that some players have an almost exclusive chance at the best raid loot


This post is about the future dynamics of raiding AS WELL AS, fixing the current state of affairs. Bugs/Exploits & Dynamics.

I don't see where you get off stating I said I don't want bugs/exploits fixed and new content.

When it comes to grasping concepts perhaps you can start with one called "limited resources"


<----- This is me giving you a well deserved finger.

Another fine moment for your guild - your members must be so proud - well I guess every game needs a guild for the vulger and crude - does make me question your claims - playing with only nine fingers and all :)

Inkblack
07-02-2007, 03:34 PM
Not as an attack but a serious question: I wonder if taking a couple weeks and having your guild PUG and Raid with substantial non-guild participation might influence your conclusions.

If you look at Riott's summary points, I think they apply to a lot of people. I'll put my comments in red:


We don't mind the initial quest flagging. This applies to everyone, and I think is probably Riott's least controversial point. Note that he isn't saying all raids should require flagging, he says we don't mind it. I know plenty of people would enjoy another Tempest's Spine type raid. So would we.

We dislike the constant reflagging. The only good thing about reflagging is that there are frequently groups doing it. Most TA players hate the constant reflagging because we do it all the time. However, it does expose us to more players because we tend to grab PUG's to reflag. It's probably a bigger deal to us than it would be to a more casual player.

We like Raid quests Prior to End Raid encoutners. This would help people trying to solve the main fight by giving them experience to offset the inevitable multiple deaths. Also, it gets the party invested in the success of the raid -- losing is more significant if you've lost a couple of hours instead of a couple of minutes. Finally, it feels so much better when you win!

We like more difficulty in the form of tougher fights, and puzzles under duress. This one I see your point -- for people that don't raid all the time, solving a tougher raid would just be frustrating. Here I think if hard and elite changed the raid significantly it might make more sense.
<snip>

We are fine with reset timers and the Glyph system of loot. Reset timers affect people that raid all the time more than casual players imo. As for the glyph system... I covered that above. The question would be whether you think as a player you could come up with a better system than whatever Turbine would implement. There are many threads that debate the merits of various systems... and people have many different opinions on what is best. Right now, the system is flexible. Everyone can play with their own method of loot distribution. Again, ours works for us and your results may vary.

We'd like to see raids build upon each other via flags/requirements. I think this would benefit everyone... more content!

And finally, TA is successful on many MMO's (6+?) because of Riott. He is a real leader. That means not always saying things the nice way. As a guild we aspire to be the best, and that starts with him. We don't apologize for the fact that we want to be the best. If other guilds say they are the best, great. They will push us to try harder. Hopefully it's a friendly rivalry.

Ink

Riot
07-02-2007, 03:47 PM
Another fine moment for your guild - your members must be so proud - well I guess every game needs a guild for the vulger and crude

If I had a nickle for every time someone disagreed with me or didn't like how I typed something in a forum. Geebus,

Honestly, I'm way beyond trying to prove my "ability" to folks like you.
Track record speaks for itself.

sometimes the truth hurts, and I don't pretend to sugar coat the medicine for your low intestinal fortitude. everyone else seemed to get the point, even if they disagreed on a specific issue.

You're the only one who's needed to take it personal.
Then you cry foul when I don't send you a halmark card. Build a bridge, get over it.

Drfirewater79
07-02-2007, 03:52 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=110695

this is the petition to stop the red tagging in missions like von and dq

in COM/SOM (Adar server) we raid daily and i can tell you i havent even seen the dq in months no one wants to do the entire run of all three missions then the pre raid then do the raid why waste the time when you got two or three or six titan and stormreaver ready toons? sheesh even pre raid is worth more then dq vs the time spent to get ready

there are a couple ways i think this could be fixed

non raid chests = better loot then current
i think that we need to start making it worth it for the 10 of 12 people who dont have and nice end reward as a ty for the debt or time spent ..... here is how i would remedy it

all the named rewards from the set up missions (rez ring from pre titan missions sirroco from pre dq missions dragon helms from pre stormreaver missions etc) should be added to the non raid end chests (meaning the chests that are given after you complete that are filled with loot for everyone) this would help keep people interested in running the raids even after they have all they need (I end up doing alot of raids in hope for one item out of 10-20 available so if i get the one item give me a reason other then helping out pugs or maybe a guildy to get theres .... i would do it for a guildy or a close friend but wouldnt catch me pug stormreaver with my fighter again i already have cloudburst madstone boots and the dreamspitter what else is really worth it for a fighter ????

stop the red flags

stop the annoying pre missions after you have completed if ya want to make it a challenge how about saying you can t do the mission on elite till you have completed all the pre missions and the pre raid on elite as well that way favor hunters can get there moment of fun too and the loot chasers dont have to waste there time (after all they are bound items so they cant be traded or auctioned anyway so the items arent going to plat farmers they are going to players)

we want more

the more the merrier ... we need to see more tempest spine like missions at both high and lower levels a lvl 7 raid with raid loot we might keep till lvl 12 or so would be nice but also non raid loot missions at lvl 14 would be nice just something with nice named loot so that you can go 12 man elite for a challenging fun encounter with a large group of friends or 6-12 man a normal or hard run for a challenge and some fun tempest was fun to 6 man at lvl 10 and is still kind fun to 7 or 8 man at lvl 8

we are looking for a reason to get more people together for bigger and better challenges

maybe you could have a mod where we got three raid missions instead of three regular missions and pointless nerfing

would be a nice change

hope someone who matters reads this and takes it to heart

stockwizard5
07-02-2007, 04:15 PM
Honestly, I'm way beyond trying to prove my "ability" to folks like you. Track record speaks for itself.

Perhaps if your track record actually spoke for itself you would not spend so much time "trying to prove your ability"?

To all the Twilight Avengers - I am so sorry you have this guy for a leader - from the various posts you look like a good bunch of players that deserve better from both a DDO and RL perspective. Being respected as both a guild and as people is not mutually exclusive and this leadership clearly sacrifices at least one if not both :(

Cowdenicus
07-02-2007, 04:37 PM
None of the uber guilds from Fernia posting here yet (FYI that would be just about every guild on Fernia as compared to other servers).

Hmmm will move on then.

Daze
07-02-2007, 10:16 PM
Perhaps if your track record actually spoke for itself you would not spend so much time "trying to prove your ability"?

To all the Twilight Avengers - I am so sorry you have this guy for a leader - from the various posts you look like a good bunch of players that deserve better from both a DDO and RL perspective. Being respected as both a guild and as people is not mutually exclusive and this leadership clearly sacrifices at least one if not both :(


How about another well deserved finger?


If anyone in this guild is vulgar its me not Riott. You really do have something to get over if you think we care one bit about your assesment of our posts after what you have said in this thread.

"I see" said the blind man to his deaf dog as he urinated into the wind, "It's all coming back to me now." - Old redneck saying

Daze
07-02-2007, 10:32 PM
P.S.

Maelstrom (Stockwizard5's guild) Raid Kills as of June 24th


Velah 6
Warforged Titan 10
Maralith 14
Stormreaver 45


In which guild Maels(Stockwizard5) leads the raid points .... who is trying to cash in on all the loot and be greedy?




I have killed all the raid encounters more times then your entire guild on my main 32 point toon alone. Riott has me beat by at least double. Therefore we are both definately more raid qualified then you. Superiority, Ability, Talent, All around godliness (not to mention good looking) are what we have over you. If you cant grip that then perhaps this isnt the thread for you.

You want the bugs fixed? Then for god's sake be constructive and list up some bugs that need to be fixed. If that is your prerogative then go to it. Knocking someone else for doing what they see as important is uncalled for.

Oh who the hell am I kidding you arent going to read down this far seeing as you certainly havent read even the 1st post.

dragonofsteel2
07-02-2007, 11:58 PM
Until every person who participates gets a raid item, the 2 glyph system means that most guilds will never bring in pugs, and most raids will be with as few people as possible.

Both mean that casual players can enjoy almost never getting a good raid in, or ever getting raid items.
The current system is designed to make players exclude others. Considering the steadily declining populations - really someone might want to change those designs so that people WANT to have others join, and not have it REDUCE the loot they get.

If you have been on 10 dragon raids lets say - and are still trying to get the sword, chances are that most people will be trying to 4 man it just so IF the thing finally drops you actually can get it for once.

Fun system? I would say no.

On other things, every raid should pretty much be like the Titan for setup, just not the buggy parts, puzzles, and the part where most of the party is spending 20 minutes sitting around waiting for someone to shoot a laser at it 6 times just to be allowed to go hit something.

I have been on both sides this always said the raid loot system sucks. Now I run must raid with as few people possible because it ups my chance getting what i want from the raid by tons. This bad system because does not promote the raids to others do not know them. Would be lot better if the raids would promote guilds to get more members to help kill the raids and share the loot. Since I do not need them to win the raid makes no sense to lower my odds to my loot. There should be a point or collect this item to get raid loot. I brought up system before but tribune does not seem to listen to any of them anyway. The more points or items you turn in the more of the list you get randomly generated for your list of rewards.

Second tired people comparing the dragon raid and the titan to be to easy. I remember when the titan first came out to long time for people to beat this raid. Yes now that we tougher, stronger , and know the winning strategy its easy. These raid do not need buffed up there just needs to be more raid added. There is not much for high end toons to do accept loot runs with randomly generated chest or raids.

stockwizard5
07-03-2007, 12:05 AM
How about another well deserved finger? If anyone in this guild is vulgar its me not Riott.

I think we learn more about this guild every post :(


In which guild Maels(Stockwizard5) leads the raid points .... who is trying to cash in on all the loot and be greedy?

You are assuming that your discriminatory loot practices apply to our guild - they don't. Our points are for something we call fun :)


I have killed all the raid encounters more times then your entire guild on my main 32 point toon alone.

Using an exploit to circumvent the raid timer does not impress me. I would be surprised that a guild that clearly exploits would be so public about it and yet still claim - what was it again ...


Therefore we are both definately more raid qualified then you. Superiority, Ability, Talent, All around godliness (not to mention good looking) are what we have over you.

And the more we learn the more we vote "lamest guild in DDO" :)

ps: I am glad you found our site both enjoyable and informative - we appreciate the compliment :)

dragonofsteel2
07-03-2007, 12:23 AM
.
S.

Maelstrom (Stockwizard5's guild) Raid Kills as of June 24th


Velah 6
Warforged Titan 10
Maralith 14
Stormreaver 45


In which guild Maels(Stockwizard5) leads the raid points .... who is trying to cash in on all the loot and be greedy?




I have killed all the raid encounters more times then your entire guild on my main 32 point toon alone. Riott has me beat by at least double. Therefore we are both definately more raid qualified then you. Superiority, Ability, Talent, All around godliness (not to mention good looking) are what we have over you. If you cant grip that then perhaps this isnt the thread for you.

You want the bugs fixed? Then for god's sake be constructive and list up some bugs that need to be fixed. If that is your prerogative then go to it. Knocking someone else for doing what they see as important is uncalled for.

Oh who the hell am I kidding you arent going to read down this far seeing as you certainly havent read even the 1st post.

First its not my job to make list for tribune to fix the bugs. This one few services that wants to customer to explore and find bugs. Tribune needs to hire people and find and fix the bugs. Second i can careless if you have killed each raid 300times does not prove anything to me but got way to much time on your hand lol.

The thing i can not believe is people count how many times they killed each raid. I have killed all these raid plenty times , but never even counted. Second The only way u could killed the reaver raid 45 times with one toon is exploiting the game by leaving the dungeon and disconnecting before the final guess is placed. Do the math that at least months plus needed to kill the raid that many times with one toon with no time for any lapse. Doing the raid ever time it free up not including the time taking to do the raid it would be 123days. Final release notes for release was 4/12/2007 today is 7/3/2007 that is 82days the model has been out.

That is the funniest thing about this thread is the people that exploit the game or always the ones crying for things to be harder.

Vox
07-03-2007, 12:34 AM
I think what you learn most about TA from reading the wide variety of posts made by different members is that they are a diverse group with a number of different viewpoints, attitudes and communication styles.

That being said, I don't think I've ever seen a TA member go to another persons thread and hijack it to make negative commentary about the poster instead of forwarding discussion of the actual subject matter.

Congratulations, much like a terrorist hijacking the american way of life you've managed to turn this into a thread about how TA or some of its members, or its loot system, or really anything sucks, and how much of a ****head you are.

Good job, way to go, stockwizard5 for Al-Qaeda in DDO leader! woohoo!... ****tard.

Vox

P.S. oh and as an aside... I think you misread Daze's post, you'd have to twist the words a little to come up with him exploiting the raid timer. It would be polite to withdraw that rather serious accusation unless you have some sort of evidence to support it.

Riot
07-03-2007, 07:28 AM
Velah 6
Warforged Titan 10
Maralith 14
Stormreaver 45


In which guild Maels(Stockwizard5) leads the raid points .... who is trying to cash in on all the loot and be greedy?

I think that says it all right there.

and that's one of the reasons the Storm Reaver encounter is messed up.

stockwizard5
07-03-2007, 07:37 AM
Put simply - I think that the game needs to fix bugs and create more content - I 100% disagree with the OP about their suggestions, priorities, conclusions (and yes even their uberness).

That is feedback - if you don't want feedback in the future send the devs an PM instead of posting to an open forum.

Riot - you are crude, vulgar, hijacked your own thread, and added nothing to the debate after your initial post. You do your guild a disservice.

Daze - you are crude and vulgar as well, and according to your own sig do not even meet the minimum requirements to be considered for a number of raiding guilds including ours. Saying that you have raided more in the last year and half than others have raided in the last eight weeks is a particularly strange version of bragging. You may well be a great player and a smart person but having only one character severly limits you. If your previous post is accurate - everyone in just our guild alone has raided more than you. If Riot has raided twice as much then that would put him rather far down the list as well.

Does that make us better than you, no, does that make us more experienced, well actually yes, if the sole basis of your position is that you raid more than anyone - you are factually wrong.

Vox - I have no idea if you are part of TA or not but (as I tried to explain in private) I am not a terrorist. In a lame attempt to insult me you in fact insult the 3 million of us that deal with them every day to protect your right to be not funny.

Inkblack - I appreciate your efforts and feedback, I hope you reevaluate your association with this group.

There are many great guilds in DDO that do in fact provide a constant stream of feedback about the game. The devs do listen and many of our suggestions have been adopted - this is nothing more than chest thumping garbage and I hope it is summarly ignored.

Conejo
07-03-2007, 07:48 AM
put simply:

1) Riott is one of the finest members of TA (and he knows i have serious issues with TA, so that's saying something). he speaks plainly and forthrightly.

2) it is crude and unacceptable to call someone a terrorist. period. Vox, you are extremely out of line.

3) stockwizard, you've got some issues, go deal with them. TA's raiding policy works best for TA. if you're not in TA, why even bother complaining?

4) everyone needs to take a step back and stop lobbing personal insults. we can discuss and even disagree over the topic like civil people.

Riot
07-03-2007, 08:17 AM
Stock - you are crude, vulgar, hijacked this thread, and added nothing to the debate after your initial post. You do your guild a disservice.


1. Bugs, Exploits and Performance
2. Mechanics and Content (Classes, Races, Levels, Landscapes, Quests, Raids, Crafting, Housing, etc)
...
1,387,246. Getting Riot Loot Faster

Lets not forget who cast the first stone.
It's one thing to mention items 1 & 2. But to take the extra initiative to lob the insult, well.... That just shows what type of person you are.
And apparently you thought I'd just roll over for it? you guessed wrong.

If this is how your guild acts then I'd urge your membership/leadership to reconsider their affiliation with people like you. In fact i'll offer anyone in your guild wanting to get away from someone like you a fresh start with us. =)

One thing I will say about TA, is we do not tread into another thread and kick someone personally.

Apparently this is standard behavior for your guild. NICE JOB!
Your GL must be proud.

Secondly, Daze is in the Military, and just got done serving overseas.
What have you done lately?
That's why his raid total is low. He was gone for a while.
Actually speaking in numerics, I have about 5-6 times more raids than Daze.
(and the records to prove it).
I don't list then on my sig, like you, because I'm not trying to prove anything.

And from yours we can plainly see you are one of your servers finest exploiters.

Congradulations. You can milk a cow like no other.

Yaga_Nub
07-03-2007, 08:21 AM
Guys,

Sorry I haven't piped up since my first post, I've been busy with other stuff but let me apologize for starting the ****ing contest. The problem with the written word is you read into it the sound and intonation that you think the writer is using instead of just reading the words. So again I apologize to Riot for adding drama into his thread. Now on to the good stuff.

I was just thinking about a new flagging mechanism. I'm sure it's been proposed before and if it has then all credit goes to the person that mentioned it first but I haven't been able to find a post about it.

What if all the raids had this flaggin mechanism, to run the raid on normal/hard/elite, you had to run the flagging quests on normal/hard/elite and then you were done flagging for that level. So if I want to run SR raid on normal, I need to complete PoP, Madstone, the Crucible, and the pre-raid on normal, then I can run the SR raid on normal but nothing else. If I want to run the SR raid on hard, I need to complete all those quests on hard and so on. This allows for repetition of quests like Turbine wants but has a finite end to that repetition like the play base wants. I think you would still have to do VON5 and AtDQ each time you run those quests but I would gladly do that if I didn't have to do 4 and 3 flagging quest before hand.

Any thoughts on this?

Any comments on this at all? Since this has turned into a personal attack on Riot (again sorry for starting all that), I thought I'd see if anyone had a comment on my suggestion.

Riot
07-03-2007, 08:23 AM
1) Riott is one of the finest members of TA (and he knows i have serious issues with TA, so that's saying something). he speaks plainly and forthrightly.

True enough... Thanks Conejo

had this guy not lobbed the insult, we wouldn't have been here.

"there's always some MF'ers trying to ice skate uphill" - Wesley Snipes

Riot
07-03-2007, 08:25 AM
Any comments on this at all? Since this has turned into a personal attack on Riot (again sorry for starting all that), I thought I'd see if anyone had a comment on my suggestion.

I actually like your idea.... But it has to be coupled with increased difficulty and reward in the final raid itself, for hard and elite. I don't that is a bad idea at all.

And on a personal level, thanks. I don't have any issue with you.

Inkblack
07-03-2007, 09:17 AM
<snip>
What if all the raids had this flaggin mechanism, to run the raid on normal/hard/elite, you had to run the flagging quests on normal/hard/elite and then you were done flagging for that level. So if I want to run SR raid on normal, I need to complete PoP, Madstone, the Crucible, and the pre-raid on normal, then I can run the SR raid on normal but nothing else. If I want to run the SR raid on hard, I need to complete all those quests on hard and so on. This allows for repetition of quests like Turbine wants but has a finite end to that repetition like the play base wants. I think you would still have to do VON5 and AtDQ each time you run those quests but I would gladly do that if I didn't have to do 4 and 3 flagging quest before hand.

Any thoughts on this?
Yes, this does deserve some consideration. I think this is an interesting idea. I like it, with a few details smoothed out.

The first time I flagged for the dragon I did it on elite. Would I then be only permitted to run the dragon on elite until I flagged on normal and hard? You could make a case for this either way I think.

Would it make it tougher on PUG's? Probably, they would have a hard time putting together a hard/elite raid just because the available pool of flagged players may be smaller, especially when a raid is new.

It still keeps the flagging mechanic while eliminating the repetition, and it gives an incentive to complete the flagging on several difficulty levels. I like it.

Ink

KristovK
07-03-2007, 10:36 AM
Uh...why is this being brought up is my first question? I ask because we have numerous bugs ingame that still exist from beta and so on, some of them are even game stopping bugs, that really should be fixed before adding new content that only a small percentage of the player base wants/does or altering the existing content that only a small percentage of the player base does. More character levels, more character classes, more spells, more races, these are the things that the devs SHOULD be spending their precious ZOTs on, not on altering current content that only appeals to a small minority of the player base. I'm terrribly sorry if you can't actually find anything else in the game to do but repeat the same 14 quests 2 or 3 times a week. I'm afraid I really don't see any way for anyone to alter those in any regards so that you wouldn't be JUST as bored/frustrated/whatever inside of a month anyway, after all, you'll be doing exactly what you are doing NOW, repeating the same 14 quests(or less if some of these suggestions were used) over and over and over and over and over. Pray tell me exactly how that would make these any more difficult, challenging or fun?

Oh..oh...I KNOW! Make the final end boss in each raid have only a 10% chance of actually SPAWNING! How's that? No..that's not what you are looking for? Then what exactly? Cause outside of ways of bypassing the pre-raid setups, I'm not seeing much else offered here by the people who are supposedly the most qualified to answer.

Me..my suggestion is...fix the bugs, add real NEW content, new quests, new classes, new races, new spells, new feats. THAT will make the game more enjoyable for the largest percentage of the player base, hells it'll even bring back people who've left and bring in new blood as well. Changing how the current raids work or altering their content...that's just gonna **** off most of us who don't give a flaming kobold's rear end about them, and we definately outnumber your uberleet raiding guilds.

*edit*
No offense to you folks in the raiding guilds, I run with people on Argo who only do raids, nothing against you folks. Done all the raids myself, some so many times I can do them in my sleep(and evidently have according to the g/f). Just please try to remember, you are a very small section of the player base, there's SO much more that needs to be addressed to keep the majority happy and keeping the majority happy is what keeps money in Turbine's coffers...

Yaga_Nub
07-03-2007, 10:39 AM
Yes, this does deserve some consideration. I think this is an interesting idea. I like it, with a few details smoothed out.

The first time I flagged for the dragon I did it on elite. Would I then be only permitted to run the dragon on elite until I flagged on normal and hard? You could make a case for this either way I think.

Would it make it tougher on PUG's? Probably, they would have a hard time putting together a hard/elite raid just because the available pool of flagged players may be smaller, especially when a raid is new.

It still keeps the flagging mechanic while eliminating the repetition, and it gives an incentive to complete the flagging on several difficulty levels. I like it.

Ink

Well since I was trying to placate Turbine as well, I would say that yes you would still have to run the flagging quests on normal and hard to do those difficulties. But even Turbine would have to be happy with us running a quest at least three times. In fact you'd still probably run it more to help other people get raid ready but at least you wouldn't have to keep running it ad nausem (unless you add in all the alts and re-rolls that you might have).

Riot
07-03-2007, 11:02 AM
Kristov,

Please don't think that because we chose to write about raids that we are not vested in seeing bugs eliminated and new content added.

How you draw the conclusion that raiding is our ONLY desire is very misplaced. (some would say naive)
Many folks in our guild are quite active in pursuing the goals you mentioned.

Turbine has resources allocated to the various areas of their game.
Not all resources work on the same thing at the same time.

Hakushi
07-03-2007, 11:45 AM
I just went through this thread and read a lot of posts. I will try to not take sides and be neutral.

To start off, I agree with Riott's post. A small section had been already discussed, I won't add my opinion about that. Constantly flagging is boring and annoying. I have an idea on how VoNs could be changed, maybe someday I will decide myself and write it. :D I agree the Titan is probably the best raid as of now. I'm anxiously waiting what the next raid will be.

Second, let's keep the terrorists out of here, that post was completely uncalled for. In both sides, personnal insults is legion, if someone do something stupid, someone else don't need to awnser with the same stupidity. Some people seems to have a huge ego, and thinks some others are inferior, remember, we are all humans, and all learn differently, and all have different interests.

Third, accusing someone after deliberately altering an information is not very nice, from what I saw after visiting one of the two guilds involved in the flame war, it's the entire guilds raids, not a single person raids, and with more than 1, 2 or 3 groups running it, you can come up with big numbers. Please, we don't need to accuse people of exploiting without any kind of real proof.

We can always post and be polite, respect is important. If you flame, you will get flames in return. We all have the right and opportunity to voice our opinion, but every other people who post here are real people like everyone else. Enough melodrama, I'm not very good at that.

To conclude, I agree raids need some tweaking, in my personnal opinion, the DQ raid is the one I dislike the most, because of the continuous flagging of the three quests. After giving he 3 items, you should be preraid flagged for good. Same goes for the VoNs, you shouldn't had to reunite the Laughing Knives everytime, once they are reunited, they are for good, and you are flagged for Vault of Night for good. For the Reaver, the preraid should be part of the timer, but I havn't really thinking how this one could be modified, it first need to be fixed, it should be impossible to come back inside once it's started.

Daze
07-03-2007, 02:25 PM
First of all I just want to say that I rule and you must bow down before me. I am a raiding god!


secondly .... if you believe that just send me wads of cash as tribute.

As far as this thread is concerned .... I may have mispoken a bit on how many times I have done the reaver. I did say I killed every raid boss more then Maels entire guild ... in the Reavers case that would be untrue. Oops you caught me. However I have done the other raids enough times to make up the difference by quite a bit..... seeing as how the Reaver is arguably the easiest of them ... I'll let you decide.

I dont keep my sig entirely up to date .... Dazzle is 13 (my oldest char) and my raiding only toon. (hence not capped yet) and Draconic is 10th and rising rapidly, not to mention the 12 lvl batman build (finesse type banker) and the 12th lvl barbarian that I never touch (except for as a bank toon). ...... If that wont get me into your guild then guess what? .... I'll just stay right where I'm at. The best of the best.

Who in their right mind uses raid points for fun? Call me crazy but I'de rather have fun accruing/spending raid points.

As far as your website ... it was juvenile and lacked any serious content (and your gallery feature doesnt work). If you consider that a compliment then take it for what its worth.

A few things about TA ... only 1 character is in the actual guild. Your main. This is your ultimate creation. If you have any toon that you know the most about. That is the one, your masterpiece of DDO symatry and character building. The rest (your alts) are in the alt/starter guild. This gives X server transfers ppl to play with/talk to without TA flagging until they meet the prereqs. We may be superior to you but we arent exclusive as you might think .... I see your guildies thinking about it now /chuckle. As far exploits ... in TA we dont get a PLS unless we burn our flag. If you exploit ... you dont get loot.

As far as Riott asking for backup ... I have been posting in this thread long before Stormwizard5 or whatever the hell his name is. More to the point though he is a guildie (and a damn fine individual) and your darn right I'm gonna back him if I see someone takin pot shots. ... he doesnt even have to ask for it.


For those of you that have something constructive to say I am thankful. While I am rude, vulgar and sometimes downright nasty, I am at least fair.


Me..my suggestion is...fix the bugs, add real NEW content, new quests, new classes, new races, new spells, new feats. THAT will make the game more enjoyable for the largest percentage of the player base, hells it'll even bring back people who've left and bring in new blood as well. Changing how the current raids work or altering their content...that's just gonna **** off most of us who don't give a flaming kobold's rear end about them, and we definately outnumber your uberleet raiding guilds.

1stly ... we arent just trying to get raids redone ... that isnt even MY 1st priority by a long shot. All I would like to see is FUTURE raids done correctly. Hence the experience in raiding comes into play.

And while wizardskin5 (whatever) isnt even qualified to eat off of the seat of my computer chair. I think the rest of you have good ideas 8)

NOW....


Lead .... Follow ..... or get the HELL out of our raid/thread!

Riorik
07-03-2007, 04:21 PM
<----- This is me giving you a well deserved finger.
Your inability to grasp a concept is not my failure in communication.
Had you simply stayed on topic and left the insult out of your post you might of had a better chance of a warmer reception. You made the rules, don't cry now that you've been called on the carpet.

In TA you get 1 point for a successful raid.
my PLS score of 44 means i've been on 44 raids Without receiving loot.
If I accept a loot on my next raid, number 45... I lose 6 points making my total 39.

Which makes my overall average 1 loot every 6 raids, with 39 EXTRA raids run.
12 people, 2 glyphs. average of 1 in 6. it's not rocket science.

This actually sounds like you're using what we always termed a DKP based system. And, you're encountering what we termed "DKP inflation". Meaning, when you run raids with less than 12, and nobody takes an item because it's "****", does everyone still get a DKP point?

Lot of variants to this scenario, but we went down this road ourselves. Before we finally scrapped it, we'd gone to a system where players could increase their chances of acquiring loot by expending extra points during the rolling process AND we always had the loot cost 7 DKP instead of 6.

Now on another subject.

Wow, guys. I can't help but feel like I'm observing a bunch of very youthful individuals on a playground having a verbal disagreement. No real points are being made, and few (or none) of the speakers are really making themselves look good in any way.

My best advice for some of you is to stop posting on this thread. And that'd mean not a single additional post/edit/whatever. No, I'm not your Dad, and I'm not your moderator either - I'm just watching some individuals trash their own forum reputations.

Nax

GeneralDiomedes
07-03-2007, 04:36 PM
I agree the Titan is probably the best raid as of now. I'm anxiously waiting what the next raid will be.


Judging from content post-Titan, it is starting to become clear that the DDO team doesn't have the resources to create quests big enough for 12 people while still adding enough content to the game as a whole. They seem to be creating 'pseudo-raids' to satisfy the raid crowd that are really 6-man quests so they can squeeze a few more 6-man quests in every Mod. The next raid will probably be more of the same - a difficult 6-man quest dressed up as a raid.

Riggs
07-03-2007, 04:50 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=110695

this is the petition to stop the red tagging in missions like von and dq

in COM/SOM (Adar server) we raid daily and i can tell you i havent even seen the dq in months no one wants to do the entire run of all three missions then the pre raid then do the raid why waste the time when you got two or three or six titan and stormreaver ready toons? sheesh even pre raid is worth more then dq vs the time spent to get ready

there are a couple ways i think this could be fixed

non raid chests = better loot then current
i think that we need to start making it worth it for the 10 of 12 people who dont have and nice end reward as a ty for the debt or time spent ..... here is how i would remedy it

all the named rewards from the set up missions (rez ring from pre titan missions sirroco from pre dq missions dragon helms from pre stormreaver missions etc) should be added to the non raid end chests (meaning the chests that are given after you complete that are filled with loot for everyone) this would help keep people interested in running the raids even after they have all they need (I end up doing alot of raids in hope for one item out of 10-20 available so if i get the one item give me a reason other then helping out pugs or maybe a guildy to get theres .... i would do it for a guildy or a close friend but wouldnt catch me pug stormreaver with my fighter again i already have cloudburst madstone boots and the dreamspitter what else is really worth it for a fighter ????

stop the red flags

stop the annoying pre missions after you have completed if ya want to make it a challenge how about saying you can t do the mission on elite till you have completed all the pre missions and the pre raid on elite as well that way favor hunters can get there moment of fun too and the loot chasers dont have to waste there time (after all they are bound items so they cant be traded or auctioned anyway so the items arent going to plat farmers they are going to players)

we want more

the more the merrier ... we need to see more tempest spine like missions at both high and lower levels a lvl 7 raid with raid loot we might keep till lvl 12 or so would be nice but also non raid loot missions at lvl 14 would be nice just something with nice named loot so that you can go 12 man elite for a challenging fun encounter with a large group of friends or 6-12 man a normal or hard run for a challenge and some fun tempest was fun to 6 man at lvl 10 and is still kind fun to 7 or 8 man at lvl 8

we are looking for a reason to get more people together for bigger and better challenges

maybe you could have a mod where we got three raid missions instead of three regular missions and pointless nerfing

would be a nice change

hope someone who matters reads this and takes it to heart

What he said.

Daze
07-03-2007, 06:07 PM
My best advice for some of you is to stop posting on this thread. And that'd mean not a single additional post/edit/whatever. No, I'm not your Dad, and I'm not your moderator either - I'm just watching some individuals trash their own forum reputations.


My reputation is bad in the first place ... but thanks for the warning ... mom =P

Cavalier
07-03-2007, 06:12 PM
No offense to you folks in the raiding guilds, I run with people on Argo who only do raids, nothing against you folks. Done all the raids myself, some so many times I can do them in my sleep(and evidently have according to the g/f). Just please try to remember, you are a very small section of the player base, there's SO much more that needs to be addressed to keep the majority happy and keeping the majority happy is what keeps money in Turbine's coffers...

Kristov, what you must also realize is that if the raid mechanics are changed in such a way to made raid accessibility easier for us, it is also easier for others. More casual players could raid more often if they didn't need to always reflag for the raids.

Despite appearances, Riott, who is my Guild Leader BTW, is very interested in the survival and growth of DDO. I happen to agree with him that this may be a good first step for the future.

Paleale
07-03-2007, 07:33 PM
Disclaimer:
The opinions and views seen in this thread are only from a few individuals who happen to be from Aundair. In no way do these posts reflect the ideas, opinions, or character of the people of Aundair. The majority of Aundair are mature, reasonable, modest, and hospitable. Finally the use of words such as terrorist or hijacking is not condoned.

KristovK
07-03-2007, 11:39 PM
Kristov, what you must also realize is that if the raid mechanics are changed in such a way to made raid accessibility easier for us, it is also easier for others. More casual players could raid more often if they didn't need to always reflag for the raids.

Despite appearances, Riott, who is my Guild Leader BTW, is very interested in the survival and growth of DDO. I happen to agree with him that this may be a good first step for the future.

Actually, changing the raid mechanics won't do much for the majority of the players who still haven't done any of them after 2 months or 4 months or 6 months or a year. And that happens to make up the majority of the player base. Guildy of mine has done 3 raids after over a year of playing...Reaver, DQ and VoN. He won't do any of them again either, doesn't like em, hates the 12 person/2 pieces of loot deal, and isn't interested in doing Titan. He's done the pre-reqs, but he ain't interested in doing the raid itself. His is a common mindset, raids ain't all that much fun for the majority. He enjoys the pre-req quests, but the actual raid...nah, too much of a pain for the reward, or lack thereof. And changing the loot mechanic is obviously not something the devs are interested in doing, not after a year of us asking for it.

This thread is about raids and making them...something...appealing, less repititious..not sure what exactly, but as I pointed out, there is NO fix when you run the same thing 2-3 times a week, it's going to be boring pretty quickly...at least I hope it would be, otherwise you'd probably be just as happy watching paint dry as playing video games. Riott brags about running each of the raids 2-3 times a week, which means running the same 14 quests over and over each week. I'm sorry, but how exactly is it possible to make that fun? Add MORE raids? Right, so you can run 15 or more quest over and over each week, that'll be fun!

ONE fix for the problem..more content, lots more content. More quests, more classes, more levels, more spells, more feats, more mobs, more everything BUT raids. Raids lead to a very specific mentality, as so clearly expressed in this very thread, and sadly, what we've seen here is commonplace for that mentality, see it on all the MMOs with raiding guilds, often with less polite language I might add. No offense, I spent years playing in online leagues for competative games(winning real money and prizes) so I understand the entire competative bit, but seriously...what is shown in this thread...it's disgusting and disturbing. Nothing on the line here but PIXELS and people are calling each other terrorists and cheaters? Yeah, lets promote that mindset by adding more raids that seem to attract that very mindset.

Conejo
07-03-2007, 11:55 PM
I actually like your idea.... But it has to be coupled with increased difficulty and reward in the final raid itself, for hard and elite. I don't that is a bad idea at all.


i'm still against increasing the difficulty until they remove the stupidity.

Vox
07-04-2007, 12:37 AM
...much like a terrorist...

Huh... first of all, I don't give two craps about my reputation. Never have, never will. Secondly, this is a simile, not a title, or an accusation, or anything else you might like to think it is. If you find it to be that offensive, report me. If the mods find it to be across a line I'll take my infraction point like a good little boy... oh hey that's another simile, who knew... I won't even cover my opinion of the way that we're "dealing with" terrorists as this is certainly not the place.

Having covered that, I think in regards to the unlocking each level of the raid that it would only make sense, given current unlocking mechanisms, that if you unlocked it on elite you would be able to unlock it on normal.

I don't think that raids or raiding fixes etc. should take a higher priority than new content. I'm a firm believer that a LARGE portion of new content is necessary to make this game worthwhile. However, I also don't think that just because new content should be the #1 priority that we shouldn't talk about other priorities.

Vox

Riggs
07-04-2007, 05:44 AM
Actually, changing the raid mechanics won't do much for the majority of the players who still haven't done any of them after 2 months or 4 months or 6 months or a year. And that happens to make up the majority of the player base. Guildy of mine has done 3 raids after over a year of playing...Reaver, DQ and VoN. He won't do any of them again either, doesn't like em, hates the 12 person/2 pieces of loot deal, and isn't interested in doing Titan. He's done the pre-reqs, but he ain't interested in doing the raid itself. His is a common mindset, raids ain't all that much fun for the majority. He enjoys the pre-req quests, but the actual raid...nah, too much of a pain for the reward, or lack thereof. And changing the loot mechanic is obviously not something the devs are interested in doing, not after a year of us asking for it.

This thread is about raids and making them...something...appealing, less repititious..not sure what exactly, but as I pointed out, there is NO fix when you run the same thing 2-3 times a week, it's going to be boring pretty quickly...at least I hope it would be, otherwise you'd probably be just as happy watching paint dry as playing video games. Riott brags about running each of the raids 2-3 times a week, which means running the same 14 quests over and over each week. I'm sorry, but how exactly is it possible to make that fun? Add MORE raids? Right, so you can run 15 or more quest over and over each week, that'll be fun!

ONE fix for the problem..more content, lots more content. More quests, more classes, more levels, more spells, more feats, more mobs, more everything BUT raids. Raids lead to a very specific mentality, as so clearly expressed in this very thread, and sadly, what we've seen here is commonplace for that mentality, see it on all the MMOs with raiding guilds, often with less polite language I might add. No offense, I spent years playing in online leagues for competative games(winning real money and prizes) so I understand the entire competative bit, but seriously...what is shown in this thread...it's disgusting and disturbing. Nothing on the line here but PIXELS and people are calling each other terrorists and cheaters? Yeah, lets promote that mindset by adding more raids that seem to attract that very mindset.

A great many players do not raid for the reasons above, I never even set foot in Von6 for at least 6 months simply because the idea of running 6 quests, to watch 2 items drop for 12 people I found offensive enough, and depressing enough (to consider the time involved in beating the odds of getting something nice) that I just didnt do it. I have probably done the dragon a grand total of 6-8 times now since the game came out - and every single time I get ****ed off because the old gamer in me who used to play D&D is really, really offended at killing a dragon and getting absolute dirt for rewards (I have gotten a grand total of ONE dragon item in since the game came out)

People who have played other MMOs seem to be more accustomed to the idea of limited rewards for raids - but everyone I know who has ever played pnp D&D hates the raid loot system. It is like the Tor pre-raid. "You mean I just killed three dragons and didnt find ONE SCALE?! I have a freaking Vorpal axe and I cant chop off a single scale from this dead dragon?"

Raid reward mechanics needs to be seriously changed. It offends a lot of people, people who dont usually speak up - they just dont raid, or eventually stop playing because there is little to do once capped other than raid.

I never played Wow, or any other MMO, I dont like the ideas of what I have seen about grinding and '40 man 8 hour raids where ONE item drops that everyone has to bid on". I thought DDO was going to be different - then I found out about the raid mechanic.

DDO needs more raids(and content), BUT more raids that do not require 3-5 prequests each and every time. And NOT the current raid loot mechanic. Then raids would be fun if everyone got something useful. But right now they take a lot more time, aggravation, and for most people, get little reward for doing it.

Conejo
07-04-2007, 09:58 AM
Secondly, this is a simile

worst "excuse" to call someone a name ever.

oh i didn't say he was stupid, i just said he was LIKE a stupid person!

know what? that is saying someone is stupid. and to argue that it isn't is just silly.

Isarn
07-04-2007, 11:45 AM
I am baffled by the comments about "I dont raid cause of the **** loot rewards"

I first joined this game on Adar... I had 2 lvl 10s, and 2 lvl 8s, and a lvl 7 by August of 2006. I Raided by making pug groups. I was sought after by some of the larger raiding guilds on that server at that time. Darkness, Ancient Knights etc... I found I was just not fitting in with the servers way of doing things... I began searching the forums and talking with guilds from all over the server world... I came across Riot, we exchanged some dialogue, and I decided to transfer to Aundair. I lvl d fast and was soon taken into the Twilight Avengers fold... I was warmly welcomed, treated with respect, and found that Riot and I were of like mind when it came to Raiding, Guild structure, and just plain old enjoying the company of like minded folks and having fun.

Next month will be my 1 yr anniversary of my arrival in Twilight Avengers. I am an Officer with the TA which I am extremely proud of. It has been explained in this thread over and over about how much we raid per week etc... I have followed/lead/in every raid this game has to offer.. I have accumulated the points to buy almost any piece of gear I care to have from any raid. I have a total of 3 pieces of raid loot on my Character. 1 from Titan, 1 from DQ, 1 from Reaver, and 0 from VoN... not because I never win the rolls? or because I dont have the points to spend on them.. It's Cause Raid Loot is not a real concern of mine... but I have done these Raids more times then i care to count... I just like spending the time with folks I enjoy being around... so for folks to complain that the reason they dont go on Raids is because the loot system is unfair, then explain to me this... Why do you play this game at all? there has to be a reason... your obviously still playing the game even though you don t raid much. So the reason must be that you enjoy the game mechanics? just hanging out with friends? so why must your argument be that you dont raid cause of the loot system? your not getting loot now... so why would you care about the loot system on raids? I say, go on the Raids cause you enjoy the challenge, the comraderie, the new scenerie ( for those that haven t raided ) and just for the sake of hangin out with people you like to be around...

Loot is absolutely meaningless in this game... I have a 14 barbarian with not 1 piece of Raid loot, and I dominate the PvP arena on most nights... I dont understand the affinity to raiding when your obviously not raiding and not getting raid loot, but still playing... something has to be keeping you here, so why complain about the Raid loot system, and say you dont raid because of it, but still play the game... your ability to convey a message is strongly deteriated by your actions. Hell if your on Aundair and you haven t raided much do to your ability not to get a piece of Raid loot, then contact me in Game, I will take you through all 4 vons for preflaggin, then I ll run you through a 6 man Dragon raid. I ll explain and answer any and all questions, I ll show you the strat I use, I will let you have the dragon loot. Then if I find your questions relevant, your ability to follow instructions sound, and that you have an attitude that I find appealing, I will extend a Guild Invitation on completion of the Raid to Gold Section under my supervision. You can then form your opinion of TA and decide wether you fit with us or not.

Twilight Avengers have this Elitist Tag given to us by most of the population because they see us doing things that most dont... we raid cause we can, we have a large knowledge base within our "Family" and yes that is what we are, Family. We raid alot cause we can, and we like to, and because it allows more of the family to hang out together. I am a bit biased cause I can t see myself anywhere but where I am. Hopefully if you do contact me in game, and you run the raid with myself and a few other TA members, you ll come to realize what we are and who we are... and maybe you too will be apart of something you can call family.

This wasn t a post in defence of my guild mates, this was one man's point of view of the guild he has joined and feels strongly towards, and has watched folks take shots at that really have no idea of what it means to be tagged TA...

Saragon
07-04-2007, 04:30 PM
Wow! You TAs sure can generate a lot of hate, can't you?:)

You guys and everyone getting worked up about you need to step back and cool off. It's actually quite amusing to watch you protest the elitist tag that people supposedly place on you when you continue to use words like 'superior' to describe yourselves. What kind of reaction did you expect?

As an Aundarian, let me clear this up for all of you people from other servers who feel the need to knock them off their pedestal - They don't really have a pedestal. TA might have a big voice on the forums but they're really just another guild on Aundair. The rest of us don't log on and wonder what TA is upto for the day. We don't stand and gape in awe when a TA member trots into an inn to grab a refreshing beverage. Having several members who post on the forums doesn't make them better or worse than anyone else. It just makes them more visible in this particular very limited context with a very small audience. After all, consider the hundreds of DDO players and then consider the smallest subset of them who actually visit or post on the forums regularily.

There are much bigger guilds with a wider range of casual to hardcore gamers and there are much smaller, hardcore (and if I must use the word - elitist) guilds than TA. Most people, no matter if they are TA or Black Tower or DOA or Entropy or even Phear's Guild of One, think they belong to the best guild on the server and so what if they do? Nothing wrong with that as long as they don't feel the need to constantly talk themselves up?

I occasionally pug with members of TA like anyone else and guess what? They're just like anyone else. They can't be lumped into one personality type or level of player skill just because they share a guild name. They've got good players and they've got the not so good ones as well. They've got arrogant snobs and they've got wonderfully friendly, down to earth people.

So, please stop attacking them and get back to the initial topic! There are people out there who want to run the same 4 quests over and over and over and over again and they want them fancied up a bit so they can run them over and over and over and over and over again...and once more, with feeling this time. I think that's the gist of it. So quit the personal attacks and get back to whether you think it's a priority to add more sparkle to the raids so that the 'raid guilds' can continue to focus on their obsession and not have to change their label to 'chillin with friends guild' or 'help a newbie guild' or 'constantly rerolling and trying new builds' guild or 'does this armor make my tush look big guild'.

Drfirewater79
07-04-2007, 10:31 PM
Wow! You TAs sure can generate a lot of hate, can't you?:)

You guys and everyone getting worked up about you need to step back and cool off. It's actually quite amusing to watch you protest the elitist tag that people supposedly place on you when you continue to use words like 'superior' to describe yourselves. What kind of reaction did you expect?

As an Aundarian, let me clear this up for all of you people from other servers who feel the need to knock them off their pedestal - They don't really have a pedestal. TA might have a big voice on the forums but they're really just another guild on Aundair. The rest of us don't log on and wonder what TA is upto for the day. We don't stand and gape in awe when a TA member trots into an inn to grab a refreshing beverage. Having several members who post on the forums doesn't make them better or worse than anyone else. It just makes them more visible in this particular very limited context with a very small audience. After all, consider the hundreds of DDO players and then consider the smallest subset of them who actually visit or post on the forums regularily.

There are much bigger guilds with a wider range of casual to hardcore gamers and there are much smaller, hardcore (and if I must use the word - elitist) guilds than TA. Most people, no matter if they are TA or Black Tower or DOA or Entropy or even Phear's Guild of One, think they belong to the best guild on the server and so what if they do? Nothing wrong with that as long as they don't feel the need to constantly talk themselves up?

I occasionally pug with members of TA like anyone else and guess what? They're just like anyone else. They can't be lumped into one personality type or level of player skill just because they share a guild name. They've got good players and they've got the not so good ones as well. They've got arrogant snobs and they've got wonderfully friendly, down to earth people.

So, please stop attacking them and get back to the initial topic! There are people out there who want to run the same 4 quests over and over and over and over again and they want them fancied up a bit so they can run them over and over and over and over and over again...and once more, with feeling this time. I think that's the gist of it. So quit the personal attacks and get back to whether you think it's a priority to add more sparkle to the raids so that the 'raid guilds' can continue to focus on their obsession and not have to change their label to 'chillin with friends guild' or 'help a newbie guild' or 'constantly rerolling and trying new builds' guild or 'does this armor make my tush look big guild'.

My friend thank you for this i think everyone from every forum chat should read this

comming from a fellow who cares what guild you come from school of ddo and A member of Adar's Coalition of Might and Sons of might guilds possibly one of the top five guilds on adar (not meaning to insult the 3 other guilds in that top five or the groups that dont make it to my consideration which means absolutely nothing LOL

guild pride is great but dont even try to defend it cause the only way you can defend it is if you take pugs along with you and convince them that you are that dame good and let them feel like they want to join and even then if you just invite anyone who thinks your cool into your guild then your good to bad player per guild size ratio changes too so now just cause your guild is big doesnt mean you are the best guild because the top 10% of people on the server you belong to are the best players and i bet that if you go through your guild list you could think of as many people who are in a different guild that you love playing with and even guilds you prefer over anything

I do it you do it we all do it

when you open the who menu and you see no one from your guild is available you look at the other guild names and go " Oh darq from statisfaction he rocks yeah lets see if he is on ..... or hey Aerioch from Sons is on lets see if he wants to raid .... or hey talleary is on she is a super cleric lets see what she is up to ...... or Hacknslash from com the ddo God himself ..... then we go hey fire and ice guild they rock a pug from there could never really hurt ...... eridani light horse have a bunch of great fighters .... blood cloaks are a blast ..... jesters make every mission a ball of laughs .... knights of the old republic has some great casters and clerics .....and there are a ton of good players from a slew of guilds big and small accross adar

do i think we have at least 12 if not 24 good enough to raid constantly with with at least 2 raid ready toons or raid available (cant wait till they remove red tags what this page was suppost to be about) on each of them we have at least 8 people who know one raid or the other to the point where they could lead it successfully even with less then 12 people and at least 20% have achieved at least one 1750 toon

but that doesnt make us the best guild what makes us the best guild is that i belong to it and believe its the best for me

and i think raids should be fixed

just to stay on topic

please petition on the link in my last post we trying to get some dev notice maybe they can tell us why they choose to do some raids like that and others the way we want?

KristovK
07-05-2007, 12:41 AM
Riggs, the raid loot system is the heart of the issue for the majority of the player base...'12 people and only TWO pieces of loot? are you nuts? why would I do that?'...my own response after Velah was put in. I did it anyway, multiple times now, never gotten a piece of Dragon loot, don't really care about that, I go just for the view...literally, for the view, it's the most visually stunning area in the entire game and THAT is worth the pain in the ass it takes to get there. Sadly the other raids, Titan, DQ and Reaver just don't have that stunning visual presence. Sure, Titan is neat looking..but..not that neat. Demon Queen...just another Marilith, sorry, not worth the hassle to visit, especially now with PoP having another Marilith in it that doesn't require the hassles. Reaver...oh..wow..another giant and air elementals! Yeah..right. VoN's I'll repeat for that view..the rest..eh..

Been a year plus since we got Velah and the raid loot system...and we've pitched fits about it constantly. And the response from the devs has been deafening in it's silence. It's obviously not going to be changed, the new raids added have all used the same system, no new Tempest Spine style raids added or hinted at. Sucks, but that's how it goes, the devs have decided raid loot will work a certain way and that's that...I'm fine with that, doesn't bother me, I'll do the raids just to do them, repeat the ones I enjoy and ignore the others after doing them once. The folks who do each raid 2-3 times a week..well..ain't much that can be done for them regardless, they'll be bored with any new raid or changes to the existing raids within 2 weeks anyway, that's what happens when you do the same thing over and over quickly.

Isarn..up to the PvP comment, you had a good logic train going there...but ya blew it with that. Judging any item based on how it works in PvP is just...well...messed up is about the nicest way I can think to put it. Ain't no balance in PvP, and thinking otherwise is just..well..messed up sums it up again. Raid loot, or any loot for that matter, is judged by how it helps the character against the MOBS, not other players, cause they ain't the enemy in our most common engagements. Me, I do raids just to see them, don't care about the loot much, there's almost nothing that drops outside of +2/+3 Tomes that I don't have something better anyway that ISN'T bound. But I've got a couple of capped toons and been playing for over a year, so I've collected a lot of loot, not exactly the norm. Casual players, which is the majority..they don't have the toys, so raid loot is often something they want. Hells, just looking at the various builds in the forums here, raid loot is often central to how you decide a build...silly if you ask me since you never know how long it might take you to GET that item..but hey, some people obviously don't mind repeating the same 14 quests 2-3 times a week just for a slight chance at getting a very specific piece of raid loot. I've done Reaver better then 20 times between my 2 capped, still ain't seen half the warded items that CAN drop nor a single tome. Not the kind of odds I'd be willing to base a build design on personally.

Saragon and Drfirewater...you point out exactly what's wrong with adding more raids...the mentality that goes with em. Raiding guilds are well known in all the games they occur in for that mentality. Never quite understood that myself, it's not like there's anything to brag about in having no life and doing something so often that you can do it backwards in your sleep and there's NO reward for it at all. It was one thing when I was gaming in the leagues for money and prizes, there's something to actually WIN after all...but...pixels on the screen...that's it...nothing tangible at all...huh? I mean...playing 8-16 hours a day, 5-7 days a week, training constantly...for a shot at 50k or more, sponsership(which means you get paid to play AS well as prize money), yeah, that makes sense to me, did that until I got burned out on it(it IS work, and it's extremely intense), and the competation is very intense, rivalry is not only expected it's encouraged(makes for good shows ya know), so the name calling, insults, all that stuff is part of the job. But in an MMO..where you PAY to play the game and you win nothing outside of some variables in the game's database....HUH? There's not even an unofficial or impromtu league for them to be playing against each other in, so really...why? Bragging rights...uh huh...what kind of ruler do you use in an e-pen contest anyway?

Drfirewater79
07-05-2007, 04:50 AM
Saragon and Drfirewater...you point out exactly what's wrong with adding more raids...the mentality that goes with em. Raiding guilds are well known in all the games they occur in for that mentality. Never quite understood that myself, it's not like there's anything to brag about in having no life and doing something so often that you can do it backwards in your sleep and there's NO reward for it at all. It was one thing when I was gaming in the leagues for money and prizes, there's something to actually WIN after all...but...pixels on the screen...that's it...nothing tangible at all...huh? I mean...playing 8-16 hours a day, 5-7 days a week, training constantly...for a shot at 50k or more, sponsership(which means you get paid to play AS well as prize money), yeah, that makes sense to me, did that until I got burned out on it(it IS work, and it's extremely intense), and the competation is very intense, rivalry is not only expected it's encouraged(makes for good shows ya know), so the name calling, insults, all that stuff is part of the job. But in an MMO..where you PAY to play the game and you win nothing outside of some variables in the game's database....HUH? There's not even an unofficial or impromtu league for them to be playing against each other in, so really...why? Bragging rights...uh huh...what kind of ruler do you use in an e-pen contest anyway?

i admit there have been days where i have played for multiple hours on end usually during loot weekend but it doesnt take anything to be stormreaver ready or titan ready thouse are the two raids we run multiple times through multiple toons multiple times a week cause there is no prep its what i have been saying if you read any of the previous posts

its called red tagging having to do vons or desert missions is like collecting red tags that you can only do the mission once you have gathered all the red flags ..... i have been pretty open about being against that cause most people dont have the time to deal with the bull of doing stupid pre missions for a 2-12 or 1-12ish cause really most do roll on one item only win or lose and if there is a high roll usually scares them off the first item

in fact i am so against it that i created a petition on the forums (link in previous reply at top) to stop the insanity of red tag raids

and i think the waste of time in stormreaver has totally been worth it lets see

hack and yadidnt are the two toons i have ready

hack has cloudburst dreamspitter and madstone boots also sports both red dragon armor and titan armor (only peice of dragon loot i got and he got it first time in)

yadidnt has the head of good fortune and stormreavers napkin and venilated bracers

i have done it about oh 6 times on both toons and got 5 items from stormreaver raid which takes no prep time after you have your tokens which if you where part of a big guild the 24/7'ers that you speak so poorly of would just give you and get you through the prep missions in 3 days of 1.5 hours a day even less on POP day any number of people do pre raid daily and you can find one guild or another doing reaver raids almost every day one guild or another cept for the people who have found a way to two and three man it oh and if ya dont know the mission is timed so it cant take more then 25 mins or you fail

the titan which once you are ready you can repeat every 3 days with a good team of people who know what they are doing can take 40-50 mins for the pre mission and 15-40 mins for the titan kill (on normal cause its faster and same end rewards and raid loot)

i think the real problem is you hate your job cause it makes you work when others get to play and that some people are so successful at doing what they do that they can afford to be gaming when you are working ..... there are days i feel like that too its ok its natural but dont blame day gamers or long term gamers for enjoying the company of good friends people you talk to daily for a year straight or more. it could be 1 hour or it could be 12 but you get to meet people in your guild create friendships and let your voice be heard over the speakers of over 100,000 people from around the world

if you are not part of a good guild then i am sorry cause its a different experience for sure

but i tell you this my fighter wouldnt be the fighter he is if it wasnt for the raid loot

my caster would be nothing without raid loot and if he gets the last peices he needs i wont need anything for a long time

and sheesh my lvl 7 already got a +2 con tome

good luck dont last long but it does come and go so keep at it and you will get your loot if you dont then you wont get the items if you dont want the items dont do the raid but the problem (dont get me wrong i hate that only 2 people get end loot that is bull all on its own but we know they will never fix it i even suggested once that they allow us to have a higher difficulty where everyone got one peice of end loot from the chest ) is not that there are to many raids its that no one wants to do dragon and desert raids cause no one wants to drag a lvl 14 toon through lvl 7-9 missions for one shot for loot in that respect we are saying the same thing

we would rather dragon and desert raids be the same as titan and stormreaver so you could just repeat the raid part von 5-6 aka the dragon raid takes 1.5 hrs to complete including the kill but the vons take 3-4 hours long just to get through them so its annoying desert raid takes 5-20 mins but to get a group for all three missions and pre raid it could take you 4-5 days just to get all the missions done before the raid .

now i am not trying to be mean or anything but if you get yourself ready for titan and stormreaver on all your max lvl'd toons and join a big guild you too even if you only play for 2-3 hours can be part of a raid party of one or the other 4 times a week with each toon (three days apart twice each twice a week)so if you have two toons that you play for no more then 2-3 hours a day you can raid everyday of the week in planned raids usually posted on your guild website with sign ups and who is running aka leading it

KristovK
07-05-2007, 01:03 PM
You totally missed the point Drfirewater.

Raid loot..if you NEED it to make a character, well, I'm sorry for you. Don't need raid loot to make a viable character, my capped toons hold their own and then some without it. Plenty of friends with capped toons who don't use raid loot, although quite a few of them have lots of it, because there's better stuff out there that drops from regular quests.

I don't hate my job, didn't hate playing competatively either, just got burned out on it after quite a few years of doing it. Oddly enough, I see people get burned out on MMOs after a short time usually, some take longer that's true, but people get burned out on them just the same. At least I got paid for the time I spent gaming, cash prizes and so on, don't get paid to play MMOs, you PAY to play them. And you are failing to see that difference as well.

When was the last time there was a league for any MMO that paid out a cash prize every 3 months or 6 months or 12 months for the top team or players? When was the last time an MMO player or team were sponsered by a company who provided top of the line computer gear, paid for transportation to the various LAN gatherings around the country and paid them a yearly salary on top of that? Oh..yes...that's right..never. Two totally different things here, getting something tangible for your play time as opposed to paying for your play time and getting nothing tangible in return. And yet I see the same attitudes in the raiding guilds that I saw in the online leagues. I expect it from people who are competing for money, but seeing it from people who aren't even competing..well..it's pretty damn silly now isn't it?

Drfirewater, I've got multiple toons ready for various raids, I'll run them all through the various raids, once each, and that's about it except for the Dragon...like I said, I love that view. Otherwise, I run them simply to have them done. There's no raid loot I MUST have, not a single thing, and there's little that I even want..and the ones I want are just that, stuff I want, not stuff that matters. I am in a guild, been running one for over a year, and I run with quite a few of the larger quilds on Argo, so I can get in a raid anytime I want...I just don't want to. And that little line of arguement, 'if you get in a good guild, you can run any raid whenever you want', is SO wrong it's not funny. That simply makes the casual players LESS likely to want to attempt a raid, since it implies you NEED to be in a guild to do raids, which is pure bs. I've PUG'd every single raid I've run from Tempest to Reaver and never had problems..except the first time we did Reaver when it was still brand new...won't discuss my massive xp debt..but we had a blast and finally beat it. PUG'd everything else and had a blast, only failed Titan once and that was because he bugged on us, so... Telling people they need to be in a guild for ANYTHING in DDO is pure bs, no two ways about it. Same as telling them they need raid loot to make a good character, pure bs. What's worse is people, like yourself Drfirewater, actually BELIEVE this bs...which really is too bad.

Strumpoo
07-05-2007, 01:35 PM
I don't think the raids should be bumped in difficulty. I think they are fine now.

What I do think needs to be changed ASAP is the "one way and one way only" routine of the raids.

I HATE this feature of raids, and I know many of my guildies do as well.

There is almost NO creativity allowed on the raids, you have to find that one way to beat the raid and then repeat it ad nausem until the developers change it.

I would like to see many more options on how to beat the raid itself. Allow a little creativity from your player base.


Raid loot...hmmm.. I think I would almost rather get "tokens" or something from running a sucessful raid, you can then turn these tokens in for a roll on loot which will include some named items and some random items. That way people don't feel shorted when they pop a raid chest and see two worthless bound items for their characters and at least they have a shot to get something they could use..

FluffyDucky
07-05-2007, 03:42 PM
Just my 2cp but the system for distributing the 2 (and I still can't believe there are only 2 good items for a 12 man raid) raid items may work for guilds or groups where everyone knows each other but it sucks big time when you run the raid with a group of strangers.

The two glyphs should be given out to two random players (just make them items in the regular chest) and each should be tied to a specific raid item. (Make 2 raid chests if needed). Whoever gets the glyph can then take the item, give the glyph to a friend, sell it to the highest bidder, or do whatever they want.

This change will NOT effect guilds. Guilds can still distribute the loot any way they want. This change just randomizes who gets to INITALLY pick up the glyph. However if your guild invites some random people to join the raid they will have to live with the idea that they have an equal chance of getting raid loot.

As the system stands now if the leader doesn’t like you or you are a last minute addition to a group of friends/guild mates there is nothing you can do if they decide to freeze you out of a chance of the loot. This is just not right.

Riggs
07-05-2007, 03:50 PM
Just my 2cp but the system for distributing the 2 (and I still can't believe there are only 2 good items for a 12 man raid) raid items may work for guilds or groups where everyone knows each other but it sucks big time when you run the raid with a group of strangers.

The two glyphs should be given out to two random players (just make them items in the regular chest) and each should be tied to a specific raid item. (Make 2 raid chests if needed). Whoever gets the glyph can then take the item, give the glyph to a friend, sell it to the highest bidder, or do whatever they want.

This change will NOT effect guilds. Guilds can still distribute the loot any way they want. This change just randomizes who gets to INITALLY pick up the glyph. However if your guild invites some random people to join the raid they will have to live with the idea that they have an equal chance of getting raid loot.

As the system stands now if the leader doesn’t like you or you are a last minute addition to a group of friends/guild mates there is nothing you can do if they decide to freeze you out of a chance of the loot. This is just not right.

On one Queen run, the leader says "Ok just to let you know ahead of time I want the ring, so i will be taking that if it drops, anythign else you guys can roll on"

The jerky drops - leader rolls on it anyway "Ohh I need that too" He didnt win it, so its not like he just took it and ran - but I have no desire to raid when the leader of a pug is bascially carrying people along to do the killing so he can cherry pick loot.

Raid mechanic = bad for pugs.

So unless your in a good guild that raids a lot, your not going to enjoy raiding - which has been promoted as the big DDO endgame every time Turbine releases a patch or mod.

DDO attracted a lot of 'casual players' who played D&D back in the day. There are a fair bit of people from other MMOs too, but this system is not friendly at all to casual players.

Daze
07-05-2007, 06:04 PM
Wow! You TAs sure can generate a lot of hate, can't you?:)

You guys and everyone getting worked up about you need to step back and cool off. It's actually quite amusing to watch you protest the elitist tag that people supposedly place on you when you continue to use words like 'superior' to describe yourselves. What kind of reaction did you expect?

As an Aundarian, let me clear this up for all of you people from other servers who feel the need to knock them off their pedestal - They don't really have a pedestal. TA might have a big voice on the forums but they're really just another guild on Aundair. The rest of us don't log on and wonder what TA is upto for the day. We don't stand and gape in awe when a TA member trots into an inn to grab a refreshing beverage. Having several members who post on the forums doesn't make them better or worse than anyone else. It just makes them more visible in this particular very limited context with a very small audience. After all, consider the hundreds of DDO players and then consider the smallest subset of them who actually visit or post on the forums regularily.

There are much bigger guilds with a wider range of casual to hardcore gamers and there are much smaller, hardcore (and if I must use the word - elitist) guilds than TA. Most people, no matter if they are TA or Black Tower or DOA or Entropy or even Phear's Guild of One, think they belong to the best guild on the server and so what if they do? Nothing wrong with that as long as they don't feel the need to constantly talk themselves up?

I occasionally pug with members of TA like anyone else and guess what? They're just like anyone else. They can't be lumped into one personality type or level of player skill just because they share a guild name. They've got good players and they've got the not so good ones as well. They've got arrogant snobs and they've got wonderfully friendly, down to earth people.

So, please stop attacking them and get back to the initial topic! There are people out there who want to run the same 4 quests over and over and over and over again and they want them fancied up a bit so they can run them over and over and over and over and over again...and once more, with feeling this time. I think that's the gist of it. So quit the personal attacks and get back to whether you think it's a priority to add more sparkle to the raids so that the 'raid guilds' can continue to focus on their obsession and not have to change their label to 'chillin with friends guild' or 'help a newbie guild' or 'constantly rerolling and trying new builds' guild or 'does this armor make my tush look big guild'.

Lets get one thing straight bub ... I AM superior (and good looking too! did I mention that already?)

Look its obvious you love me but, come on, do we have to do this publicly? .... its over, I'm moving on.


As far as guilds though I agree with ya. Everyone goes for what they want in DDO. No complaints about that here. As far as MMORPG's are concerned, raiding is the normal endgame content though. I dont know how DnD is played as far as PnP is concerned (never got to that high a lvl) but I can imagine it wasnt much different depending on the DM of course. DDO also has more rigidity then PnP for obvious reasons (group size, numbers of players etc).... its just a fact of life.

I'm not saying the loot system is fair. You're entittled to your own opinion on that and I recommend you voice it if you want it changed. Personally I dont have a problem with it (though I welcome discussion on the topic).


Disclaimer:
The opinions and views seen in this thread are only from a few individuals who happen to be from Aundair. In no way do these posts reflect the ideas, opinions, or character of the people of Aundair. The majority of Aundair are mature, reasonable, modest, and hospitable. Finally the use of words such as terrorist or hijacking is not condoned.

Dont cop out Pale .... if they dont realize its just a few ppl out of an entire server then they deserve to be flamed. (for stupidity). How's that for the pot calling the kettle black?

Who the F are you to condone the use of words? Your damn good cleric bro but a god your are not. Oh and btw ... I am mature, reasonable and hospitable ... modesty is a little light though. (I prefer to play in the buff) nope no modesty here.

As far as a server goes ... if someone bases there interpretation of a server off of one yahoo like me posting my silly rantings then I for one say go away. Judge someone else. I'm just talkin here

Saragon
07-06-2007, 12:00 AM
Lets get one thing straight bub ... I AM superior (and good looking too! did I mention that already?)

Look its obvious you love me but, come on, do we have to do this publicly? .... its over, I'm moving on.


As far as guilds though I agree with ya. Everyone goes for what they want in DDO. No complaints about that here. As far as MMORPG's are concerned, raiding is the normal endgame content though. I dont know how DnD is played as far as PnP is concerned (never got to that high a lvl) but I can imagine it wasnt much different depending on the DM of course. DDO also has more rigidity then PnP for obvious reasons (group size, numbers of players etc).... its just a fact of life.

I'm not saying the loot system is fair. You're entittled to your own opinion on that and I recommend you voice it if you want it changed. Personally I dont have a problem with it (though I welcome discussion on the topic).


Sure thing, little man. Whatever gets you through the day. I couldn't say if I love you or hate you. I just don't think I have an opinion about you really. Well, it seems you're a bit full of yourself on the forums and that hurts you by distracting people from the issues you attempt to raise but that doesn't really affect me one way or the other. Some people just don't have the social graces to make others receptive to their opinions.

In regards to what I think of you on the server, I definately have no opinion. You are an unknown there. I've never really noticed you and perhaps never will. There are a sprinkling of TAs (or should I say Ta since someone forgot to capitalize the A in the guild name) on at any given time and they mostly keep to themselves seemingly boring themselves to death by runnning the same 4 quests repeatedly. A few of them might be known to others who label themselves as raiders but the vast majority of the server wouldn't notice if you disappeared tomorrow.

And that's the wonderful thing about DDO. It has the courage to depart from the standard MMO model and at least make some attempt to keep the feel of it's D&D roots. The small server sizes etc attempt to foster the growth of a community where everyone knows everyone and the game is a social experience rather the the machine like grind towards higher levels or better loot or whatever rocks your boat. All you powergamers who love to be noticed just fade into the background because you don't pug as much or just run random quests to have a friendly chat with a few other Aundairians. The more widely known and loved characters on the server do. It must really eat at you to find that the harder you try the further you slip into obscurity.;)

I feel sorry for you hardcore sorts with the standard MMO mindset as you are always going to feel frustrated by DDOs 'lack of high end content' or whatever else might be on the whine of the day menu. DDO fills a niche market and a large majority of its players with PnP backgrounds would find little appeal in the standard MMO model. You can have your opinions on the 'normal endgame content of MMORPGs' but it's not going to matter one iota to Turbine. This game appeals to people who would never have interest in the structure of other MMOs out there. Why change and lose that niche market by having to compete with other MMOs for the same type of gamers?

Cavalier
07-06-2007, 02:00 AM
There are a sprinkling of TAs (or should I say Ta since someone forgot to capitalize the A in the guild name)

We've been a guild since Beta, and when the game first opened, you could NOT capitalize the second word in a guild name.

There are a few other guilds on Aundair like that as well.

Conejo
07-06-2007, 08:39 AM
We've been a guild since Beta, and when the game first opened, you could NOT capitalize the second word in a guild name.

There are a few other guilds on Aundair like that as well.

and i told many of your people, including Riott, that you could have (about 6 months ago) put in a ticket to get that fixed.

Inkblack
07-06-2007, 09:11 AM
and i told many of your people, including Riott, that you could have (about 6 months ago) put in a ticket to get that fixed.

Thanks, but it's part of the guild history now. We discussed it recently, and decided (again) not to change it. Apparently it comes up on occasion. It really bothered me until I knew the why. Now it doesn't bother me at all.

Ink

Conejo
07-06-2007, 09:13 AM
Thanks, but it's part of the guild history now. We discussed it recently, and decided (again) not to change it. Apparently it comes up on occasion. It really bothered me until I knew the why. Now it doesn't bother me at all.

Ink

well that's fine. i wouldn't change it now anyway, since they'll charge you for it (what a ripoff).

Shecky
07-06-2007, 09:34 AM
As a guild we raid the 4 majors on average 20 times a week. (not counting Tempest Spine)
This a low average, it can go over 30 sometimes.
**These are ALL GUILD raids** and do not include PuG raiding, which again would increase our average.

A little off-topic here, and absolutely no offense intended - doesn't that get boring? I mean, I've seen you guys around and you seem to be all about the game, but wouldn't you want more variety than that? I have a high tolerance for repetition myself, but even I would get stir-crazy doing the same ones over and over and over again constantly.

Broto
07-06-2007, 10:13 AM
Being forced to repeat pre-quests sucks. It is also bad for the game because it promotes game zerging. People get tired of having to run Wizard King for the 136127351236 time....and then still only have a small chance the raid item they want will drop. And maybe if you are lucky you will be on the right toon when it does.

Isarn
07-06-2007, 10:40 AM
and i told many of your people, including Riott, that you could have (about 6 months ago) put in a ticket to get that fixed.

If you go to the Fountain in the Harbor where all the solo quests are and click on it... You ll see the information Portal.. click on Aundair, and you ll see all the original guilds that started on Aundair... you ll notice that all the names on there do not have a capitalization on any of the letters but the First name... its about History Conejo, if you send in the ticket and have the name changed... ( even one letter ) you are considered a new guild.. and you would lose your history.

With that said, you should know your history before you make a comment on something tsk tsk tsk. So, maybe you should stop telling our people and Riott misleading information that could actually hurt the history of our fine guild.

IE. be educated before you post comments.

Daze
07-06-2007, 04:28 PM
Full of myself? Obscurity? ... You dont know the 1st lvl 10 on your server? (granted it isnt the same toon) .... A history lesson is definately in order.

I am the man and you just dont see me because I am always looking down on you.



I am too good looking to hang with people like you.

Feel free to take everything I say seriously and interpret this as ego and not sarcastic self defemation at all.


*looks down* although I do see what you mean by 'little man'


One last note: anyone who flames me as a main topic of their post automatically comes down to my level (not entirely unlike a heat sink) therefore ... anyone who doesnt start with a quote of Daze probably has something worth reading.

Saragon
07-07-2007, 05:33 PM
Full of myself? Obscurity? ... You dont know the 1st lvl 10 on your server? (granted it isnt the same toon) .... A history lesson is definately in order.

I am the man and you just dont see me because I am always looking down on you.



I am too good looking to hang with people like you.

Feel free to take everything I say seriously and interpret this as ego and not sarcastic self defemation at all.


*looks down* although I do see what you mean by 'little man'


One last note: anyone who flames me as a main topic of their post automatically comes down to my level (not entirely unlike a heat sink) therefore ... anyone who doesnt start with a quote of Daze probably has something worth reading.

Thank you, Daze. You just drove home my point (the one you missed when you thought that you were the main topic of my post). First lvl 10 on the server? Do you honestly think that most people care to remember something as inconsequential as that? And that was the point I was making. People like you, with your standard MMO mindset will never really get DDO. Racing to be the first to 10th level was never the interest of the majority. It isn't a game that was designed for powering through the levels and running high end raid content. No wonder you typical MMO sorts have these issues with the game. It's just not the sort of game that's meant to hold the interest of someone who wants to raid 30 times a week.

Drfirewater79
07-07-2007, 07:18 PM
You totally missed the point Drfirewater.

Raid loot..if you NEED it to make a character, well, I'm sorry for you. Don't need raid loot to make a viable character, my capped toons hold their own and then some without it. Plenty of friends with capped toons who don't use raid loot, although quite a few of them have lots of it, because there's better stuff out there that drops from regular quests.

I don't hate my job, didn't hate playing competatively either, just got burned out on it after quite a few years of doing it. Oddly enough, I see people get burned out on MMOs after a short time usually, some take longer that's true, but people get burned out on them just the same. At least I got paid for the time I spent gaming, cash prizes and so on, don't get paid to play MMOs, you PAY to play them. And you are failing to see that difference as well.

When was the last time there was a league for any MMO that paid out a cash prize every 3 months or 6 months or 12 months for the top team or players? When was the last time an MMO player or team were sponsered by a company who provided top of the line computer gear, paid for transportation to the various LAN gatherings around the country and paid them a yearly salary on top of that? Oh..yes...that's right..never. Two totally different things here, getting something tangible for your play time as opposed to paying for your play time and getting nothing tangible in return. And yet I see the same attitudes in the raiding guilds that I saw in the online leagues. I expect it from people who are competing for money, but seeing it from people who aren't even competing..well..it's pretty damn silly now isn't it?

Drfirewater, I've got multiple toons ready for various raids, I'll run them all through the various raids, once each, and that's about it except for the Dragon...like I said, I love that view. Otherwise, I run them simply to have them done. There's no raid loot I MUST have, not a single thing, and there's little that I even want..and the ones I want are just that, stuff I want, not stuff that matters. I am in a guild, been running one for over a year, and I run with quite a few of the larger quilds on Argo, so I can get in a raid anytime I want...I just don't want to. And that little line of arguement, 'if you get in a good guild, you can run any raid whenever you want', is SO wrong it's not funny. That simply makes the casual players LESS likely to want to attempt a raid, since it implies you NEED to be in a guild to do raids, which is pure bs. I've PUG'd every single raid I've run from Tempest to Reaver and never had problems..except the first time we did Reaver when it was still brand new...won't discuss my massive xp debt..but we had a blast and finally beat it. PUG'd everything else and had a blast, only failed Titan once and that was because he bugged on us, so... Telling people they need to be in a guild for ANYTHING in DDO is pure bs, no two ways about it. Same as telling them they need raid loot to make a good character, pure bs. What's worse is people, like yourself Drfirewater, actually BELIEVE this bs...which really is too bad.

this is hallarious so now you want them to pay you to play the game .....

wow someone needs to remember that video gaming industry only pays thouse who work for them and even then there are so many volunteer game testers especially for mmos why they hell would they pay you?

if you want cash to play then leave cause really i would rather turbine spend there money fixing and adding things to this game then waste time setting up GAMEING FOR MONEY leauges and tourneys

if you want lan parties then play third person shooters they are the only games tha serious lan players play because they push the limit of buffed pc's

the point of an MMO is to meet and get together with people of similar interests from around the world

people play DDO because they are either interested in the fantasy relm of games or because they played Pen and Paper dnd if that isnt enough to keep you as a customer .... oh well i guess its back to Unreal tourney or battlefeild 2149 for you then ....... but really DDO isnt a MMO with 3 million people playing like FF11 or WOW the game has been around for a year and a half and to tell you the truth the dev's havent launched enough new races and classes to bring enough of the PnP players back to this game

then maybe they can think about tourney stuff

but really to tell you the truth they havent even gotten into guild houses and my guess is that they will launch evil alignment and then there will be battles between good and evil where you wont get CASH (wow some people) but instead you will get guild rewards which will allow you to get special bonuses for members of that guild like in Guildwars and coh/v or perhaps they will open large player aera's where we can build homes and other such creative things like in SWG ....... but cash money tourneys .... dont think they have any place in MMO's at all and i am sure most others feel the same

DDO please focus on making the game better and not the greed of some people .......

Drfirewater79
07-07-2007, 07:25 PM
Just my 2cp but the system for distributing the 2 (and I still can't believe there are only 2 good items for a 12 man raid) raid items may work for guilds or groups where everyone knows each other but it sucks big time when you run the raid with a group of strangers.

The two glyphs should be given out to two random players (just make them items in the regular chest) and each should be tied to a specific raid item. (Make 2 raid chests if needed). Whoever gets the glyph can then take the item, give the glyph to a friend, sell it to the highest bidder, or do whatever they want.

This change will NOT effect guilds. Guilds can still distribute the loot any way they want. This change just randomizes who gets to INITALLY pick up the glyph. However if your guild invites some random people to join the raid they will have to live with the idea that they have an equal chance of getting raid loot.

As the system stands now if the leader doesn’t like you or you are a last minute addition to a group of friends/guild mates there is nothing you can do if they decide to freeze you out of a chance of the loot. This is just not right.

if you set the party type to random loot it does pretty much what you are talking about there will be two items in raid chest and bound to there owner before the chest is opened

Gimpster
07-07-2007, 10:18 PM
if you set the party type to random loot it does pretty much what you are talking about there will be two items in raid chest and bound to there owner before the chest is opened
No. There will be two Glyphs of Unwarding on the ground and they will be reserved for random characters, isntead of to the leader.

KristovK
07-08-2007, 12:15 AM
You just don't get it do you Drfirewater.

Raiding Guild mentality is as bad, often worse, then the mentality of professional gamers who get paid to play and are encouraged to behave the way they do by the people who pay them. Raiding guilds don't get paid, they don't have anyone telling them to act as they do, matter of fact they usually get told to NOT act as they do. And the pay for the priviledge of playing the games they play.

Do you fail to see the difference still?

Raids don't need to be adjusted to make them more attractive to the raiding guilds because it's a totally pointless process. NOTHING the devs could do would make the raids any different for these guilds because within 2 weeks of any changes, they'd be doing them in their sleep AGAIN. If all you do is the same 14 quests 2 or 3 times a week and that's IT...well...I guess it's going to get a little boring. Gods I HOPE it gets a little boring, it'd drive me up the frigging wall. It's not like there's any chance of a mob NOT being around that corner, that trap NOT being right there, the boss NOT being immune to this and weak to that. Come on, what exactly do you expect here? Even in WoW and the other MMOs, the raids are boring as hells after you've run them umpteen times in a row and that's ALL you are running. Sure, it's nice to chat with your buddies and all, but you don't need to just run raids to do that. I chat with my friends in DDO without running the same few quests over and over and over and over. If you are that bored, make a new toon, try a class or class combo you've never played, make a gimped toon and see if you can make it work despite everyone telling you it's not possible(one of my personal favorites). Here's an idea...go play the few hundred quests you totally ignored on your powerleveling trip from 1st to 14th in a week!

Cowdenicus
07-08-2007, 12:16 AM
Thank you, Daze. You just drove home my point (the one you missed when you thought that you were the main topic of my post). First lvl 10 on the server? Do you honestly think that most people care to remember something as inconsequential as that? And that was the point I was making. People like you, with your standard MMO mindset will never really get DDO. Racing to be the first to 10th level was never the interest of the majority. It isn't a game that was designed for powering through the levels and running high end raid content. No wonder you typical MMO sorts have these issues with the game. It's just not the sort of game that's meant to hold the interest of someone who wants to raid 30 times a week.

Right, all the live events mean the game is , wait scratch that.

With all the easy access to communication via server wide channels this game caters to.... wait that aint in yet either.

With a whopping 6 level 14 quests (I may have miscounted 1 or 2 here) this game is definitely not for power gamers, I would agree.

But then again, this game isnt really about building a community either, or RP. So what is this game about then?

Oh and BTW, the last time I checked, this game is an MMO, so that may be why for the time being you have some poeple here who play (wait for it) MMO's.

Vox
07-08-2007, 03:15 PM
More content = good. More challenging content = good. Less uber weapons (vorpal, paralyzer, +10 holy burst of pure good greater beating bane etc) = more challenge = good. adjustment of new content in light of user feedback on old content = better new content = good. adjustment of old content in light of user feedback = ok. adjustment of overall raid loot system to become more PuG friendly = good, PuGs deserve a better system. Adjustment of difficulty levels = debatable, but I'd be happy with the 4th difficulty level of "just crazy" just to have something else to do...

To expound on the "just crazy" concept and I realize this is slightly off-topic, but at least it's tangential, A few of the people I've played with have expressed a desire for an insane level of difficulty... we're talking, equipment gimping, starting at lower health, having more mobs in particular areas, boosting hit dice, saves, resists, remove all shrines, and disallow recalling anything you can think of to make it so difficult that you don't survive. Something that you just don't beat at the same level of the quest, and probably not for a few levels after. I'll follow with some of the arguments I foresee against this, and my counters to save some time and hassle.

1. Don't waste dev resources... Worst case scenario for me... the devs add super crazy level, and just put in mobs with +10 CR or 20 or whatever... how hard is that to code really? I mean honestly, most of the mobs in the game are probably templates that could be fairly easily copied and some numbers changed, and access to spells boosted. I'm not asking for new dungeons, or spells... although super crazy torness might have to have new spells...:p

2. Why would you play a level you were virtually certain to die in? Well, you could start by going to see the super crazy kobolds;) Second, some people like bashing their head into a wall... it's a niche level type for a niche game!:eek:

3. That's just dumb, and such a waste of time.... Yeah well, you don't have to play it, and see #1, I know some time might be too much for some people, and I don't expect to see this happen, I'm just throwing it out there.

4. The dev's will never do that anyway for reason A-Z... Yep you're probably right, they won't, but I can at least say I spoke up.:D

Vox

P.S.


worst "excuse" to call someone a name ever.

oh i didn't say he was stupid, i just said he was LIKE a stupid person!

know what? that is saying someone is stupid. and to argue that it isn't is just silly.

You sir, should invest in a dictionary... First, in order to be an "excuse" I would either need to be justifying, or offering some sort of apology... since clearly I'm not performing the latter, I would have to be justifying. I can't justify calling someone a name if I never called someone a name, so clearly the former does not apply. Is there something in the "" that makes excuse mean something else? Regarding the likely base disagreement that I "called someone a name", please read on.

A simile, sir, is used to compare two essentially unlike things. For example... Being compared to a terrorist, is like being compared to a stupid person. Comparing someone to a terrorist is essentially different from comparing someone to a stupid person, yet you can use the simile in attempt to bring forward the similarities, the fact that both are insulting being the foremost here. If I wanted to call someone stupid for hijacking a thread, I would just call them stupid... not "like stupid".

Riot
07-09-2007, 09:35 AM
Do you honestly think that most people care to remember something as inconsequential as that?
I do.... and there's been posts on this in the Aundair forums several times.

Anyway,

I'm done with "re-establishing qualifications" lets get back to the point.

DDO has problems because they've open the pandora's box on loot for the most part. When stuff that drops from any old chest exceeds the stuff from raid chests, You have a problem. Cmon, this is MMORPG-ology 101. And they blew it.

DKP - PLS, 2 different systems, very closely related, PLS is also similar to the AMP system, but PLS is a much easier to follow system than either of the other 2.

Bottom line is simple, less tedious reflagging, means Casual raiders will be able to enjoy more raiding as well. This isn't just about the "raiding elite". It's about time investment, and enjoyment of the game.

Sure I / we may runt he same raids over and over, but what's our other option? The same quests over and over? No thanks, I'll pick the raids.

We all want more content, that's not an arguement nor an issue in this thread. This is about current as well as NEW raid content and seeing it improved and challenging.

That's all.

Drfirewater79
08-12-2007, 02:41 PM
You just don't get it do you Drfirewater.

Raiding Guild mentality is as bad, often worse, then the mentality of professional gamers who get paid to play and are encouraged to behave the way they do by the people who pay them. Raiding guilds don't get paid, they don't have anyone telling them to act as they do, matter of fact they usually get told to NOT act as they do. And the pay for the priviledge of playing the games they play.

Do you fail to see the difference still?

Raids don't need to be adjusted to make them more attractive to the raiding guilds because it's a totally pointless process. NOTHING the devs could do would make the raids any different for these guilds because within 2 weeks of any changes, they'd be doing them in their sleep AGAIN. If all you do is the same 14 quests 2 or 3 times a week and that's IT...well...I guess it's going to get a little boring. Gods I HOPE it gets a little boring, it'd drive me up the frigging wall. It's not like there's any chance of a mob NOT being around that corner, that trap NOT being right there, the boss NOT being immune to this and weak to that. Come on, what exactly do you expect here? Even in WoW and the other MMOs, the raids are boring as hells after you've run them umpteen times in a row and that's ALL you are running. Sure, it's nice to chat with your buddies and all, but you don't need to just run raids to do that. I chat with my friends in DDO without running the same few quests over and over and over and over. If you are that bored, make a new toon, try a class or class combo you've never played, make a gimped toon and see if you can make it work despite everyone telling you it's not possible(one of my personal favorites). Here's an idea...go play the few hundred quests you totally ignored on your powerleveling trip from 1st to 14th in a week!

hate to say it but i Hacknslash am part of a raiding guild we hit every raid we can as often as we can but get this almost everyone has at least one 32 point toon past lvl 8 everyone has at least 3 toons with over 1200 favor and really only thing left in the game for alot of us is loot cake walked through titan elite yesterday in all guild raid (with two exceptional exceptions) and i can still remember a time when we where not walking through raids cause it wasnt that long ago that there was but a dragon and she was the end all of hard for the longest time ok so we figured out this new raid a little fast i admit it too but you can still fail its just nice that you dont have to waste a whole night to try again

even us "raid guilds" still do all sorts of missions unless they are either a) not challenging enough b) no good exp or loot or favor c) not gonna be finished before raid group forms lol

i dont care if your a guildy or not shoot we almost finished a 6 man half pug stormreaver the other day only reason we failed is cause the second fighter was first time and casters ran out of mana while i was the one who got fly

and we still made it to the puzzle and almost had it too till the fighter died
to tell ya the truth we would have beat it the second time on our own but two clerics asked to join and that was the end of the story