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OKCRandy1
06-27-2007, 04:55 PM
I've been an advocate for Turbine fixing Necropolis and thought I'd start a thread for discussion. There are so many great design elements, yet it misses the mark. It's a chore and few run the quest series, yet I believe it has good bones to build on.

I believe a major overhaul is in order, my ideas:
(1) Place the quests in a "wilderness" adventure zone. Love the new tangleroot, GH, Greymoon, and Desert areas! It would be nice to have the area with the vendors before the graveyard, then entering the graveyard is a wilderness zone.
(2) Add a greater diversity of creatures or perhaps increase the variety of undead. How about a Graveyard Dirt Golem?
(3) Completely redesign the quest with the freakish random colored rooms (come on already, a sophmoric arcade game trick!). Wasn't fun the first time, hasn't been fun since, and have never been with a group with one member that thought it was fun.
(4) Add a new raid quest with some great undead fight, perhaps an undead dragon or the aforementioned Graveyard Dirt Golem, a lich, something cool. There is little joy in fighting vamps, most melee just get to find a good parking space while the spell casters fry him...unless you have a vorpal, which is inappropriate for this lvl quest.
(5) They are buggy quests, admit it, gather all the issues and fix them!

Anyone agree it could us an overhall and any other ideas for Turbine?

Swordalot
06-27-2007, 05:01 PM
Well, Number 4 is gonna happen pretty definitely, as Mod 5 will wrap up the Litany with most likely a raid.
Other than that, what can be expected. Undead are always hated mobs, because they're boring, annoying, and disruptable.
The unfortunate truth is that the raid flagging will likely require the entire series. While this is not a bad thing, I do hope that the devs will look toward patching the quests and altering them into fun-ness.

Blazer
06-27-2007, 05:10 PM
I'd love to see an overhaul to this line. My guild has just started knocking them out on elite since we've kinda run outta things to do other than raid. Each part of the 1st chapter only takes about 5-7 minutes on elite; 2nd chapter is about 15 minutes each. Granted, we're all far above the appropriate level for these dungeons, but that's the nature of the Necropolis it seems.

Mod 5 is LotD Ch 3-4 and the raid is centered around this storyline, so you've got your wish there. Oh, and as a side note, you can't vorpal the vampire at the end of LotD 1 or 2 since they're both red named bosses.

The first chain isn't bad, I feel it's pretty level appropriate. The dungeon layout is pretty boring, however, and far too plain.

The 2nd chain, however, is a bit harder than the level on the door indicates. This is only exacerbated when you do it on elite. I feel the major problem for people with the Necropolis (2nd line only here) is the rampant phasing in and out of the mobs, which is probably tied to their AI.

Much like how mob spellcasters and archers just keep running around like chickens with their heads cut off, or scorpions can neverendingly burrow into the ground (making combat with them last far longer than it should) these phase spiders and umbrel gargoyles and the like just spend more time out of phase. Granted, it's their primary defensive ability, but they do it so damn often, it's annoying to players. I chalk it up to poor AI. It almost seems like they're programmed to phase out when they receive a set amount of damage, and stay out until X amount of time has passed.

JosephKell
06-27-2007, 05:14 PM
The unfortunate truth is that the raid flagging will likely require the entire series. While this is not a bad thing, I do hope that the devs will look toward patching the quests and altering them into fun-ness.Unless the raid flag for it is merely having the trinket upgraded in Bloody Crypt and then upgraded again in the Shadow series. Unfortunately that might be too easy to rinse and repeat since you keep the item (unless in flagging you lose the item).

However, I believe that everyone flagging for a raid does it once through to elite for favor, then all future flagging is on normal (to expedite it).

My thoughts on fixing necropolis are to increase the level of the first ones, people don't tend to get around to doing it until level 6-8 (it is tucked away and the pulls in it are pretty bad). Then to make the chests fewer and better. Pulling a +1 greatsword after killing a mummy on elite (eff level 7) is just... wrong.

-JK

Dariun
06-27-2007, 05:33 PM
1. Add +1 or +2 to all levels.
2. Increase all XP 2-4x.
3. Improve mapping for multilevel dungeons or put more built in visual clues to allow people to find their way through some of those dungeons (e.g., the underwater maze that I swam through lost for 2 hours).

Geriant
06-27-2007, 05:34 PM
1) Make the dungeons less repetative, especially the Bloody Crypt. While the claustrophobic feeling in the Bloody Crypt is neat the first five minutes or so, it gets very, very old quick. And since we cannot get a first person view in the game, it gets annoying when you turn to face a mob and the banners go between your character and the camera.

2) Tone down the damage whacking a skeleton does to weapons. It is very easy to end up spending more money fixing your items after the quest chain than you get from the items in the quest.

3) The tombs are supposedly taken over by followers of Vol (I think, might be some other evil cult), while there are some 'living' folks in some of the tombs, replacing some of the undead with more living folks would be great. With the Catacombs and Delara's, we don't really need another long quest series with a ton of undead.

4) Re-evaluate the quest difficulty vs the level of the quest. To some degree, I think this series suffers from the same problem that Freshen the Air used to have before it was tweaked. The difficulty of the quest is not reflected in the level of the quest, especially the shadow tombs. The stat damage in some of those quests is insane.

5) Tweak turn undead. For this quest chain in particular it is obviously woefully underpowered as it stands now. It should be moderately useful without a cleric having to specialize in it, not that it is moderately useful even if a DDO cleric uses every means at their disposal to make their turns better.

6) Undead hit points are freaking insane regardless of where you find them. I realize Turbine needed to buff the mobs up health-wise to make up for the fact they are controlled by AI, but I think someone forgot that the same formula for say trolls didn't have to apply to undead. They are immune to criticals, stat damage, sneak attacks, etc and have other abilities like damage resistance, stat and level drains, immunity to most forms of crowd control, etc so there wasn't a lot of need to give them the same hit point boost as the rest of the mobs in my opinion. This alone helps to increase the feeling of drudgery while doing this chain and all of the others with undead. In absense of critical hits and other methods of increasing the hit point drain when attacking a mob, it increases the time taken to bring down a particular mob. That increases the drain on the party's resources to get through the quest.

7) One of the things that really irritates me about the series is how dark it is in the tombs. I realize it's realistic and atmospheric, but if we can't have light sources other than a second or two when a spell goes off please do not make a quest where I need to turn my gamma settings up to twice their levels to see things like switches on the wall or a *glowing* rune on a skull. If you want to do this, figure out how to implement torches, ultra/infravision and light spells.

8) Since this is a quest chain, consider adding the quest chain loot schematic. Doesn't have to have static rewards but can use the random generated bound loot mechanic we see at the end of WW and such.. this might be in the works for the end of the series, I don't know. But I think it wouldn't be that bad to add it for the end of each step. We already have that precident with WW/STK now.. though some might not have picked up that the end of the WW chain sends you to the STK chain.

~G

Blazer
06-27-2007, 05:44 PM
6) Undead hit points are freaking insane regardless of where you find them. I realize Turbine needed to buff the mobs up health-wise to make up for the fact they are controlled by AI, but I think someone forgot that the same formula for say trolls didn't have to apply to undead. They are immune to criticals, stat damage, sneak attacks, etc and have other abilities like damage resistance, stat and level drains, immunity to most forms of crowd control, etc so there wasn't a lot of need to give them the same hit point boost as the rest of the mobs in my opinion. This alone helps to increase the feeling of drudgery while doing this chain and all of the others with undead. In absense of critical hits and other methods of increasing the hit point drain when attacking a mob, it increases the time taken to bring down a particular mob. That increases the drain on the party's resources to get through the quest.

Heh, you wanna talk about drudgery? Last night we finished up the 2nd level of LotD on elite and our sorc says over VC, "I think I cast 1 spell throughout all of these damn quests." Anyone wanna guess what it was? Yep, firewall. The easiest way to get through these damn dungeons - just keep pulling packs of mobs back to the roaring fire while the sorc shieldblocks in the wall and the cleric tosses the occassional Heal on the sorc. The pinnacle of mind-numbing gameplay.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 05:54 PM
Heh, you wanna talk about drudgery? Last night we finished up the 2nd level of LotD on elite and our sorc says over VC, "I think I cast 1 spell throughout all of these damn quests." Anyone wanna guess what it was? Yep, firewall.
If he didn't at least also cast Haste and Displacement, he made big mistakes.

Frodo_Lives
06-27-2007, 06:04 PM
Dear lord the phasing in and out of the undead make it a complete nightmare (and not in the cool way) to do the 2nd teir quests. It takes forever and you end up with carpel tunnel syndrome. I swung my sword more during one quest (Shadow King) than I did during the entire loot weekend. ;)

Seriously, stop with the phasing in and out so much. It ruins any sense of fun that these quests could possibly have.

BTW I love the illusionary walls, do more of that in future quests.

Blazer
06-27-2007, 06:11 PM
If he didn't at least also cast Haste and Displacement, he made big mistakes.

The bard shared in that responsibility.

Geriant
06-27-2007, 06:28 PM
Heh, you wanna talk about drudgery? Last night we finished up the 2nd level of LotD on elite and our sorc says over VC, "I think I cast 1 spell throughout all of these damn quests." Anyone wanna guess what it was? Yep, firewall.

While I realize you stated it was on elite in the shadow tombs, with the levels the two sets of quests are written for most parties would not have firewall for at least the Heart-Bloody Crypt series as that entire portion is for levels 5-6, wizards won't have firewall until level 7 and sorcerers have to wait until level 8. I think it's kind of telling that most people don't do this quest chain until they have several disrupters and can also take advantage of the technique you listed. Which means the series is for all intents and purposes useless for getting through levels 5-9 as would seem to be the designer's intent. It's equally mind-numbing to have to do the same couple of quests over and over and over through those levels. Just think it's a shame the LotD can't help fill in the cracks some.

~G

Teufel_Hunden
06-28-2007, 07:43 AM
...
5) Tweak turn undead. For this quest chain in particular it is obviously woefully underpowered as it stands now. It should be moderately useful without a cleric having to specialize in it, not that it is moderately useful even if a DDO cleric uses every means at their disposal to make their turns better.
........
8) Since this is a quest chain, consider adding the quest chain loot schematic. Doesn't have to have static rewards but can use the random generated bound loot mechanic we see at the end of WW and such.. this might be in the works for the end of the series, I don't know. But I think it wouldn't be that bad to add it for the end of each step. We already have that precident with WW/STK now.. though some might not have picked up that the end of the WW chain sends you to the STK chain.

~G

QFT

Espically #8. There is no end gratification, no real reason to run this series, save for favor. The loot is bonnafide craptacular, there is no end reward for 5 quests X 2, and the XP is abysmal. I love the storyline, to be sure, but in all honesty, I save these for the ultimate last, just for favor. As it stands right now, this series is not worth the time and money to run, which is a shame, because it has potential to be Awesome.

Yvonne_Blacksword
06-28-2007, 09:11 AM
Make the quests soloable...
Give us a way to open the doors to the one quest without having to find 3 other people who are willing to do the quest...

Me and a buddy were trying to duo one of the first set...(crimson heart?)
and had to go elsewhere till we could find 2 others.

Mad_Bombardier
06-28-2007, 10:15 AM
Make the quests soloable...
Give us a way to open the doors to the one quest without having to find 3 other people who are willing to do the quest...

Me and a buddy were trying to duo one of the first set...(crimson heart?)
and had to go elsewhere till we could find 2 others.You can duo that one by simlutaneously summoning pets on the opposite pedastal. It takes practice timing but can be done. :)

OKCRandy1
06-28-2007, 10:52 AM
Excellent ideas, many far superior to mine, I hope the devs are listening. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to thow in your two cents, some excellent specific ideas. Thanks Geriant. Some of the most obvious ideas are the best.

Some of the great suggestions from the thread I'd like to recap and see stressed are:

- adding better loot (quest chain loot mechanics & better exp)
- throwing in some living creatures (probably true not much can be done to differentiate the undead, they are what they are)
- adding some light (I forgot just how disrupitive all that darkness was, it's not like we can carry torches)
- re-evaluating quest difficulty
- improve mapping for multi-level dungeons
- fix the amount of phasing (I'd also forgotten about just how annoying so much of that was - it does feel more like an A/I glitch than something intentional for strategy or fun)
- have to agree, while the claustrophobic feel at first is cook, it does become insanely irritating (I recall having to move around just to see my toon)

I'm very glad to hear this will be wrapped up in a raid. I'm also still keen on my suggestion to intigrate a wilderness area away from the quest givers and going to the quests.

Yep correct no vorpals on red-names, which further makes my point of what a sucky end-fight vampires are for melee.

Yvonne_Blacksword
06-28-2007, 11:00 AM
<sigh>
Yvonniva and her partner were petless wonders..
guess I need a totemic staff.

Gimpster
06-28-2007, 11:56 AM
It's basically too late to fix Necropolis, which is unfortunate because the quests themselves are not really bad.

Popular opinion is that Necropolis quests are boring, but that is actually incorrect. Only prehaps 15% of the problem with the quests is internal to the quest design- the majority is from their place in comparison to other quests of the same level. They just don't give an amount of XP and loot proportional to the time and effort.

LOTD1 needs to compete with STK and Tangleroot in terms of XP and loot. It loses.
LOTD2 competes with Deleras, CO6, and Threnal. It loses too.

To fix Necropolis, you'd do the following:
1. Raise the level on all the quests, which would include bumping the HD of the monsters and reward of the chests.
2. Change the phasing behavior of incorporeal monsters so they stay targetable a little longer, especially from spells.
3. Change around 10% of the LOTD2 monsters to be non-incorporeal undead.
4. Fix the reward of the Silver Flame Pendant so a character needs to have done the quest to get it. You shouldn't be able to hold the instance open and run in 8 alts to all get the necklace without doing the mission.
5. Add a bunch of new named loot (keeping the increased level into account)
6. Add vampire minibosses at random places in the quests.

Basically, when Module 5 comes out the Necropolis will be home to the next new raid, which means it will cumulate at level 14, or hopefully even higher. It will be inappropriate to have lowbie quests mixed in to that series. A single storyline quest chain should not have a 10 level gap between the lowest and highest quests. Increasing the level of the missions would raise the probability of the loot being useful.

True, it will be a little weird for an existing quest to jump up in level, while allowing players to keep old favor on it, but that's really no big deal.

PS. I feel horrible for the LOTD designer, because he incorporated several creative design elements that players had been requesting on the forums. And yet the quests are unplayed, largely due to issues outside the scope of the quests themselves. I hope it isn't impacting his performance review!

OKCRandy1
07-05-2007, 11:24 AM
/Agree, especially the part about feeling bad for the designer. I just ran the first 4 parts again recently and there are some very cool elements. Just needs some love for the devs now.


It's basically too late to fix Necropolis, which is unfortunate because the quests themselves are not really bad.

Popular opinion is that Necropolis quests are boring, but that is actually incorrect. Only prehaps 15% of the problem with the quests is internal to the quest design- the majority is from their place in comparison to other quests of the same level. They just don't give an amount of XP and loot proportional to the time and effort.

LOTD1 needs to compete with STK and Tangleroot in terms of XP and loot. It loses.
LOTD2 competes with Deleras, CO6, and Threnal. It loses too.

To fix Necropolis, you'd do the following:
1. Raise the level on all the quests, which would include bumping the HD of the monsters and reward of the chests.
2. Change the phasing behavior of incorporeal monsters so they stay targetable a little longer, especially from spells.
3. Change around 10% of the LOTD2 monsters to be non-incorporeal undead.
4. Fix the reward of the Silver Flame Pendant so a character needs to have done the quest to get it. You shouldn't be able to hold the instance open and run in 8 alts to all get the necklace without doing the mission.
5. Add a bunch of new named loot (keeping the increased level into account)
6. Add vampire minibosses at random places in the quests.

Basically, when Module 5 comes out the Necropolis will be home to the next new raid, which means it will cumulate at level 14, or hopefully even higher. It will be inappropriate to have lowbie quests mixed in to that series. A single storyline quest chain should not have a 10 level gap between the lowest and highest quests. Increasing the level of the missions would raise the probability of the loot being useful.

True, it will be a little weird for an existing quest to jump up in level, while allowing players to keep old favor on it, but that's really no big deal.

PS. I feel horrible for the LOTD designer, because he incorporated several creative design elements that players had been requesting on the forums. And yet the quests are unplayed, largely due to issues outside the scope of the quests themselves. I hope it isn't impacting his performance review!

Thrudh
07-05-2007, 12:48 PM
6) Undead hit points are freaking insane regardless of where you find them. I realize Turbine needed to buff the mobs up health-wise to make up for the fact they are controlled by AI, but I think someone forgot that the same formula for say trolls didn't have to apply to undead. They are immune to criticals, stat damage, sneak attacks, etc and have other abilities like damage resistance, stat and level drains, immunity to most forms of crowd control, etc so there wasn't a lot of need to give them the same hit point boost as the rest of the mobs in my opinion. This alone helps to increase the feeling of drudgery while doing this chain and all of the others with undead. In absense of critical hits and other methods of increasing the hit point drain when attacking a mob, it increases the time taken to bring down a particular mob. That increases the drain on the party's resources to get through the quest.

QFT

Dariun
07-05-2007, 01:06 PM
PS. I feel horrible for the LOTD designer, because he incorporated several creative design elements that players had been requesting on the forums. And yet the quests are unplayed, largely due to issues outside the scope of the quests themselves. I hope it isn't impacting his performance review!

That depends... did he/she set the loot, level, and XP for those quests?

If no, then some sympathy is in order.

OKCRandy1
07-05-2007, 01:27 PM
Loot, level, & experience points can all be adjusted. There are still some great design elements and dungeon crawl atmosphere.

FoxOne
07-05-2007, 01:52 PM
It's basically too late to fix Necropolis, which is unfortunate because the quests themselves are not really bad.

Popular opinion is that Necropolis quests are boring, but that is actually incorrect. Only prehaps 15% of the problem with the quests is internal to the quest design-

Please give us facts.If popular opinion is that the quests are boring,then it is Correct.I NEVER heard anyone say "hey,let's go hit the necropolis on normal,hard then elite cause they are so much fun!"the xp is a joke & loot is what level 4?

& where do you get your percentage?

I say the best way to fix the necropolis is to shut it down.Let it go & save the trouble of making another serie of "i-will-go-once-on-elite-but-never-again".
the biggest failure of DDO is those stupid quest chains that are boring as hell.No one wants to run them more than once,i still have 2 to do never see a group heading in the necropolis...
Shadow crapt of garbage & bloody crapt.Just my opinion but i know most people agree with it.No 33.33 % here or whatever,just the bulk of players.

If it wasn't for favor,i'd avoid that stupid useless area altogether.

OKCRandy1
07-05-2007, 02:10 PM
Please give us facts.If popular opinion is that the quests are boring,then it is Correct.I NEVER heard anyone say "hey,let's go hit the necropolis on normal,hard then elite cause they are so much fun!"the xp is a joke & loot is what level 4?

& where do you get your percentage?

I say the best way to fix the necropolis is to shut it down.Let it go & save the trouble of making another serie of "i-will-go-once-on-elite-but-never-again".
the biggest failure of DDO is those stupid quest chains that are boring as hell.No one wants to run them more than once,i still have 2 to do never see a group heading in the necropolis...
Shadow crapt of garbage & bloody crapt.Just my opinion but i know most people agree with it.No 33.33 % here or whatever,just the bulk of players.

If it wasn't for favor,i'd avoid that stupid useless area altogether.

I disagree on several counts.

- There have been some very successful quest chains that I've enjoyed, tangleroot for one. Although I'd agree the old system for creating chain quests is not as good as how desert and necropolis are set up. Since you can run the Necropolis quests in any order and they've removed issues with advancing a chain quests (speak to so and so, run to so and so, speak to so and so again) most of the "chain quest" negatives aren't even a part of the problem. It's a multi-quest set up, but not a chain.

- I think you're splitting hairs with Gimpster on his "popular" opinion comment. Whatever specific complaints people have, we all have to agree it's hard as hell to get groups to run the quests and while on the quests, it seems almost everyone is complaining. The quests are broke, certainly we can all agree on that?

- Throwing away the content seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If none of the necropolis content is appealing to you then no changes will make it fun for you, but if you're like some of us and have enjoyed the great design elements and enjoy an old fashioned dungeon crawl, then re-coding with fixes, additions, and loot/exp improvements to make the the quests more popular is a better way to go. IMO, Necropolis can be made more fun for more people and it will take less time to fix it than to create new content.
I

Dragonhyde
07-05-2007, 02:45 PM
Eh I vaguely remember some of this quest series....mainly the drudgery of the second set of quests. I remember running two of the quests when litany 2 came out as part of a guild group. We disliked it so much we joined another group running at the same time and went to tempest for a "naked" run. I managed to get into the prt 2 end quest and promptly got stuck zoning between 3 different rooms. Lol i even followed others into a doorway and didnt go to the same area as them :p I never did make it to the room with the end fight but got back to the first room eventually.

Geriant
07-05-2007, 02:58 PM
The area can be saved, if it's just reworked a bit. I think one of the larger problems is that it is one of three quest chains populated predominantly with undead, and all three are around the same level. But it's the worst of the three when it comes to experience and reward vs. time invested. While undead are one of the iconic themes of D&D adventures, having the Catacombs, Delara's Tomb and the Necropolis be 90-100% undead is a bit too much I think.

The storyline in the Necropolis makes it perfect to mix it up some with the mobs, but for the most part the mobs are undead. It doesn't help that the quests generally take a bit longer to run than others at the same level and usually only have 1 so-so chest in the quest. Adding a few more chests to each part of the chain and maybe tossing in some unique loot like they've done with STK would help. I'd also strongly suggest putting a chest in the Vampire's room of the Bloody Crypt. It feels almost anti-climatic to defeat him and get nothing other than a dusty old book you can't do anything with and the first time through a semi-useful trinket.

I love the fact they added things like random traps and spawns, but most of the crypts feel somewhat like they were put together via cut-and-paste visually, which just lends to the overall feeling of drudgery in the quests themselves in combination with all of the undead. A 50-50 mix of undead and other mobs (we can do without slimes/oozes though) or even a 60-40 mix would improve the quests tremendously I think. There's two or three of the Heart tomb quests that have some humanoids in them, I can't recall there being any in the Shadow tombs, but how about replacing some of the undead with those sort of guys or something?

~G

Marker
07-05-2007, 03:32 PM
I have to agree with the general concensus (sp?) on this thread.

The Necropolis series of quest is a spot on neat idea. It has very pretty level design, excellent graphical quirks (look a roach! oooo fishies!), a solid progression chain that doesn't limit you to doing the same quests in the same order, and a very nice theme.

Treasure awarded is low with, to my knowledge, no specific items to quest for to draw in the powergamers. And to boot the chests involved don't really spark any kind of "wow" in them.

The first series I find to be perfectly in line with placement of monsters and would like to see them remain unchanged. However I feel the experience and treasure is completely out of whack, especially when you figure in the cost of repairs.

The second series I just plain don't like the monsters involved. Through no fault of the developers, I didn't like the pencil and paper versions of those monsters and I don't like their online equivilants. Add that into substandard treasure and it just isn't something I'm overly excited to participate in.

Last but not least, even when I do get the bug to go play around in the necropolis finding a group is next to impossible, even when trying to form my own, unless it's a favor run.

I would desperately love to see these quests get a major overhaul in some form or other because all ten quests scream out to be loved and I desperately want to love them.

I just can't right now....it's not them it's me....no really you look great in that dungeon....yeah I've got to wash my hair...and a dr's appointment...no no I'll call you when I get time....no please it's ok, stop crying...baby....awww you know I love you....yeah...

mrtreats
07-05-2007, 03:46 PM
(3) Completely redesign the quest with the freakish random colored rooms (come on already, a sophmoric arcade game trick!). Wasn't fun the first time, hasn't been fun since, and have never been with a group with one member that thought it was fun.


Well u have never quested on fernia there are at least 6 members of my guild that LOVE this quest it is easy even on elite with no clr we jump in PUG's doing these quests just because we like them there is nothing wrong with the quests people just hate undead if you run them right you can knockout the entire line on elite in about 2 hours with a group of 7-10 yes both sets the heart and shadow

bnrilfun
07-05-2007, 03:56 PM
I like a lot of the ideas that have been tossed around to make this more worth running than the one-time elite run most do now.

One thing to point out is life would suck if they changed the undead in Necropolis to the ones that are resistant to fire spells, as then tanks would be spending millions in plat just to repair themselves while casters just tossed out a haste once in a while.

OKCRandy1
07-05-2007, 03:57 PM
Well u have never quested on fernia there are at least 6 members of my guild that LOVE this quest it is easy even on elite with no clr we jump in PUG's doing these quests just because we like them there is nothing wrong with the quests people just hate undead if you run them right you can knockout the entire line on elite in about 2 hours with a group of 7-10 yes both sets the heart and shadow

I understand, but it still hasn't been fun for me. I really felt like it was just to gimmicky. But if there are those that really enjoy it, then I'm all for diverse content. There are many other great ideas in the thread for improving Necropolis though, even if they leave my least favorte part alone.

JelloMold
07-05-2007, 04:02 PM
...I feel the major problem for people with the Necropolis (2nd line only here) is the rampant phasing in and out of the mobs, which is probably tied to their AI.

Much like how mob spellcasters and archers just keep running around like chickens with their heads cut off, or scorpions can neverendingly burrow into the ground (making combat with them last far longer than it should) these phase spiders and umbrel gargoyles and the like just spend more time out of phase. Granted, it's their primary defensive ability, but they do it so damn often, it's annoying to players. I chalk it up to poor AI...

Sounds like strong AI to me. If you had the chance to disappear every time you had someone whacking on you, wouldn't you phase out too? ;) . But I agree, if players were doing this, it would be called an exploit.

Blazer
07-05-2007, 04:45 PM
Sounds like strong AI to me. If you had the chance to disappear every time you had someone whacking on you, wouldn't you phase out too? ;) . But I agree, if players were doing this, it would be called an exploit.

Sure, if I had the ability to do so, I would phase out. But the thing is, you gotta phase back in at some point in order to whack back. :)

Symar-FangofLloth
07-05-2007, 05:00 PM
XP, loot, supposed level, and the phasing are my issues. Mostly the supposed level and phasing. The first series is fun, except for the final part- it's the same thing 4 times over, a little too much, but doable. The second series has way to many incorporeal/phasing to be fun. The swimming I can handle and lead people through, the trapped one is fine (has more than enough shrines, basically), while the one with the lights you need to turn off will lead to party wipes at level 14 due to respawns if a couple mistakes happen. I enjoy the final quest, all those puzzles and whatnot are pretty fun.

ebt-dnd
07-05-2007, 08:20 PM
My suggestion, 10,000 gallons of napalm and a citywide ordinance requiring cremation of all corpses. I mean, geez, how many cemetaries crawling with undead do you have to have in the city before they do something about it?

Gimpster
07-05-2007, 08:47 PM
My suggestion, 10,000 gallons of napalm and a citywide ordinance requiring cremation of all corpses.
Nooo! Then we'll get the incorporeal undead only, and they're the worst kind!

ebt-dnd
07-05-2007, 10:12 PM
Well, the incorporal ones burn almost as good as the regular ones in my firewalls, so the napalm should get them too... :P

Mockduck
07-05-2007, 10:39 PM
I have to agree with the general concensus (sp?) on this thread.

The Necropolis series of quest is a spot on neat idea. It has very pretty level design, excellent graphical quirks (look a roach! oooo fishies!), a solid progression chain that doesn't limit you to doing the same quests in the same order, and a very nice theme.

Treasure awarded is low with, to my knowledge, no specific items to quest for to draw in the powergamers. And to boot the chests involved don't really spark any kind of "wow" in them.

The first series I find to be perfectly in line with placement of monsters and would like to see them remain unchanged. However I feel the experience and treasure is completely out of whack, especially when you figure in the cost of repairs.

The second series I just plain don't like the monsters involved. Through no fault of the developers, I didn't like the pencil and paper versions of those monsters and I don't like their online equivilants. Add that into substandard treasure and it just isn't something I'm overly excited to participate in.

Last but not least, even when I do get the bug to go play around in the necropolis finding a group is next to impossible, even when trying to form my own, unless it's a favor run.

I would desperately love to see these quests get a major overhaul in some form or other because all ten quests scream out to be loved and I desperately want to love them.


I really don't have too much to add to what's already been said here. Interesting discussion. I've thought quite a bit myself about this quest chain and why I like the first part but dislike the second part. I've actually never finished the 2nd part (it's something I need to do before mod 5 - if I can get a group together for it). I did three of the five part 2 quests and they were just really, really frustrating. I liked the overall design (except for the underwater one, cuz c'mon, too much water!), but thought they were too hard for the level they were posted, didn't give much xp, had iffy loot and just were kind of a pain to complete.

I like phasing monsters, but don't think they work well with the current AI and game setup. They just need to.(phase) stop. (phase) phasing.(phase) so.(phase) much.

Interesting stuff in this here thread!

Claver
07-06-2007, 10:35 AM
I've thought quite a bit myself about this quest chain and why I like the first part but dislike the second part. I've actually never finished the 2nd part (it's something I need to do before mod 5 - if I can get a group together for it). .....but thought they were too hard for the level they were posted, didn't give much xp, had iffy loot and just were kind of a pain to complete.


I'm in the same boat with you. If only the quest level were the 2 levels higher we would at least get some xp and be able to use level appropriate characters to make the process less painful.

Claver
07-06-2007, 10:36 AM
It's basically too late to fix Necropolis, which is unfortunate because the quests themselves are not really bad.

Popular opinion is that Necropolis quests are boring, but that is actually incorrect. Only prehaps 15% of the problem with the quests is internal to the quest design- the majority is from their place in comparison to other quests of the same level. They just don't give an amount of XP and loot proportional to the time and effort.

LOTD1 needs to compete with STK and Tangleroot in terms of XP and loot. It loses.
LOTD2 competes with Deleras, CO6, and Threnal. It loses too.

To fix Necropolis, you'd do the following:
1. Raise the level on all the quests, which would include bumping the HD of the monsters and reward of the chests.
2. Change the phasing behavior of incorporeal monsters so they stay targetable a little longer, especially from spells.
3. Change around 10% of the LOTD2 monsters to be non-incorporeal undead.
4. Fix the reward of the Silver Flame Pendant so a character needs to have done the quest to get it. You shouldn't be able to hold the instance open and run in 8 alts to all get the necklace without doing the mission.
5. Add a bunch of new named loot (keeping the increased level into account)
6. Add vampire minibosses at random places in the quests.

Basically, when Module 5 comes out the Necropolis will be home to the next new raid, which means it will cumulate at level 14, or hopefully even higher. It will be inappropriate to have lowbie quests mixed in to that series. A single storyline quest chain should not have a 10 level gap between the lowest and highest quests. Increasing the level of the missions would raise the probability of the loot being useful.

True, it will be a little weird for an existing quest to jump up in level, while allowing players to keep old favor on it, but that's really no big deal.

PS. I feel horrible for the LOTD designer, because he incorporated several creative design elements that players had been requesting on the forums. And yet the quests are unplayed, largely due to issues outside the scope of the quests themselves. I hope it isn't impacting his performance review!

I find my self agreeing with 100% of everything you said. :o

These are strange times. :D

Palmetto
07-06-2007, 10:41 AM
My main problem is the dungeon design. All the tight corridors and break neck turns to the left and right, over and over again. I literally get a headache after one or two of the quests.